Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 799: Doc Holliday, Wyatt Earp, and the Booze-Fueled Bender that Ended at OK Corral

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Ep. 799: Doc Holliday, Wyatt Earp, and the Booze-Fueled Bender that Ended at OK Corral · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: This is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underware. Listening past, you
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: can't predict anything brought to you by first Light. When
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: I'm hunting, I need gear that won't quit. First Light builds,
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: no compromise, gear that keeps me in the field longer,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: no shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it out at
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: first light dot com. That's f I R S T
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: l I t E dot com. Join today by author
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Mark Lee Gardner, expert on all things wild West. But first,
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: the Bob Kratchett Report.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: Do you think the audience looks forward to the Bob
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: Cratchitt Report every every Monday.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: That's the thing I've been worried about. Yeah, you think
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: maybe no one cares, uh huh as much as I care.
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: I think you're onto something there.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: How's it going? How's how's it going? As Bob cratch
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: It just real quick, Phil's just so everybody knows. People
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: just discovering the show. Phil is he's uh, he's been
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: cast into Christmas Carol.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true. We just dad tiny, Tim's Dad. Rehearsals
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: are rolling, they're going well. Uh, it's always fun watching
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: watching it come together. You know, it's it's show business. Baby,
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: We're We're.
• 1:31
  Speaker 4: I don't have a whole lot to add, Steve.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: If you in case you you do, you get like groupies,
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: groupies theater groupies, like girls that want to come talk
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: to you.
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: The first time someone asked me to sign their program
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: in the alley behind the theater, I was taking up.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: I was telling about getting bugged.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: They they do exist, but they are they are very
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: they are few and far between.
• 1:55
  Speaker 5: Yeah, Phil, do you use a special Bob Cratchit voice
• 1:58
  Speaker 5: in the show?
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah? How do you say it's up?
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: I do? I do have an English accent?
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: Oh?
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: I think you guys could just not do that.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: You just think we should go full American and just
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: spanning all different regions of the United States.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like I was saying, you would do US currency.
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: US Yeah, because that's confusing and.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Just have have you ever watched Death of Stalin.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's the guy from who created Veep did
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: that phenomenal movie.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: But everybody just talks like how they talk. They're not
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: all trying to have that like that boris like, do
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: the accent you do when you're a Russian.
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: In the movie.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: I've never I've never been a Russian in a movie.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: But yeah, they don't they don't do all that. Yeah,
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: and it's like Steve Bushmi, but he talks like he's Steve. Yeah,
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: that's good.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: I think you are are masking your love for theater
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: and spectacle. You you try to direct it towards me.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: But this is just a way for you to share
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: all of your ideas that you have for how to
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: how to just create a great theater production.
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: I think you're in the wrong line of work.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: Frankly, Yeah, that's true because you know what my wife
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: points out to me a lot of times. A lot
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: of times I'll yell at my kids about something and
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: she's like, you're talking through the kids to me. This
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: is me you're talking about. Because I can get away
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: with that, but I can't get away with saying it
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: to her. So I'll say it to them in her presence. Yeah,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: like who left all this land everywhere? But I know
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: it's hurt.
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: My wife is the exact same thing to me.
• 3:23
  Speaker 5: I hate to tell you this, but that might be
• 3:25
  Speaker 5: a universal tactic because I tend to the same.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: I like mom did oh oh it was mom? Okay, Okay,
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: just don't like to see that. Just make sure it's
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: not you. Guys.
• 3:40
  Speaker 6: By the time this airs, you and I will probably
• 3:43
  Speaker 6: be coordinating our outfits for to go see Bob cratching
• 3:47
  Speaker 6: the matinee.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: I don't having science as I'm here for cratching love it.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: Mark Lee Gardner's the author historian of The Weast Musician.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: I didn't know this Turkey hunting enthusiast.
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: I'm an addict, seriously, Yes, every spring.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: Huh rare book collector.
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: And I heard that you compete with Random in the
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: state sales.
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: I do, yes, if there's one. If there's one today,
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: I'll be there right, but they're usually not on Tuesdays.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: Author of many books. You know, you know I liked it.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: You did a lot. You did that thing where you
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: did what's that thing called? Where you do like you
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: take questions like wild West questions. It's that it's on
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: Uh what the hell was that?
• 4:29
  Speaker 5: Wired?
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Wired? Where you like field? You like the helpline
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: and you field wild West questions. Dude, you got a
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: lot of breadth when it comes to wild West history,
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: like good wild West details.
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: Well thanks, yeah.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: Uh. Here's some of Mark's books. What are we sitting here?
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: Right front. Right here, we got in front of me,
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: I got shot all the hell Jesse James, the Northfield
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: Raid and the wild West Greatest Escape. We got brothers
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: of the Gun sitting in front of us. Wider Doc
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: Holliday and a Reckoning and Tombstone also the author of
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: Wagons for the Santa Fe Trade. That sounds very detailed.
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: It's very detailed. I think it's sold like three hundred copies.
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: It's a very specific. It's the definitive book on wagons.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: That's like, but that's like hard history.
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: Hard history. That's what they call a material culture study.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, and explain that to folks real quick, Like
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: what will they learn in that book? Wagons for the same.
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: So they're going to learn what the freight wagons look like,
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: what they were made out of, and how the styles
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: changed from the eighteen twenties up through when the trail
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: ended in eighteen eighty. How many mules you know, what weight?
• 5:39
  Speaker 7: You know they'd.
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: Averaged six pounds or three tons, I mean, you know
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: the dimensions. All from primary sources, newspaper accounts. And it
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: was actually the first study of freight wagons, and it
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: came about because the Santa Fe Traill has made a
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: National Historic Trail by the Park Service. But it's also
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: the only book on Santa Fe Trail freight wagons.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: So you got to hell on a Fast Horse, The
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: Untold Story of Billy the Kid and Pat Garrett. That's
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: a good one. We talked about shot all the hell.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: You got a book on Roosevelt.
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: I do on the rough Riders.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: Rough Riders, Theodore Roosevelt, his Cowboy Regiment, and the Immortal
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: Charge up San Juan Hill. And a book on one
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: of my personal favorite subjects. I'm kind of a little
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: big horned Edmund Fitzgerald. Guy, Okay, I think I might
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: do a shirt where it's the Edmund Fitzgerald but custers
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: on it bringing everything again.
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it would be the only shirt like that in
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: the world.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: That that book. I haven't read years on this, but
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: i'd like to The Earth is all that lasts? Crazy
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: Horse sitting Bowl in the Last Stand of the Great
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: Sux Nation? Does that cover like this the Summer of
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: seventy six?
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: And yeah, I mean I have a whole chapter on
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: just the battle itself, but it's there. It's their life story.
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: It's a dual biography of both these Lakota leaders. But
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: but yeah, I have a lot of information about the battle,
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: and I just stopped there on the way up here.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: Actually yesterday, isn't it haunted? Mass It's haunted, dude. It's
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: one of those few places speaking of like like if
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: you're in Whitefish Bay, you can feel the Edmund Fitzgerald,
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: if you're on Last Stand Hill, you can feel it.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: It's like you can feel it. I cried on Last
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: Stand Hill first time I went there. I went there
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: on the anniversary. Oh my buddy Seth got married on
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: the anniversary a different time. Oh not him, that's Brody Okay.
• 7:37
  Speaker 5: Yeah, although I got a couple ancestors that were in
• 7:43
  Speaker 5: that battle.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah. If you look at the dead, Brody's all over there.
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: Oh well, it's a very moving site. I'd completely agree
• 7:49
  Speaker 4: with you. I mean, especially if you're if you can
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: go there, you know they're open, well they used to
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: be who knows now, but they used to be open
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: till uh dust the sunset and nobody's there then and
• 7:59
  Speaker 4: you just stand on a Last Dan Hill or go
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: to Reno Hill. You know, it's just a very moving
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: h you know, just a neat experience.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of suffering that day. But you know,
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: the thing you can't get over is just the absolute
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: exuberance that must have been felt by the Northern Cheyenne
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: in the Sux to be like just after like all
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: these just stunning defeats and massacres, to just that one day,
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: one time, just well and bring it to them, you
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like, how good for them, How
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: good that day must have felt.
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: I think you're absolutely right. But also it was a
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: tremendous relief. I mean, these soldiers had come to kill them.
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: I mean they had families and children in the village,
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: and they had protected I mean, that was the reason
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: they were fighting. It wasn't just to get a victory
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: over the white man. But those soldiers were gonna hurt them,
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: and they were protecting their families and their mothers and sisters.
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: And they did it. And then there's all this booty
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: they got, you know, springfield carbines and cult revolvers. Of course,
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: sitting Bull had warned them in his vision that they
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: weren't supposed to take anything from the soldiers, and if
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: they did, it would mean they're doom. But they disobeyed
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: the vision, and some Lakotas field that that was the
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: downfall of their people. But yeah, the vision told him,
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: do not take booty, do not take souvenirs or whatever.
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: But how could you help, you know, not help. There's
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: all this stuff, ammunition and the horses and so, yeah,
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: they took plenty of booty.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: Have you ever read the account of Wooden Leg.
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: It's one of the best accounts shining accounts.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he like he leaves the battlefield. He like face scalped.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: A guy at the battlefield tried to give it to
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: his mom or grandma. She didn't want it, like a
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: side burned scalp splits. They all take off the cavalry.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: The other the survivors, the surviving cavalry guys come up.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: They like scour the whole battlefield, bury everyone. Wooden Leg
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: and his buddies go off to the west to go
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: hunt for crow Indians they like. They don't find any crow.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: They find like one family and decide not to kill
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: him for some reason. He hasn't explained why they decided
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: not to kill him. And then they come back to
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: the battlefield to get stuff that they remember that they
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: didn't grab at the time, to like, if I remember right,
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: there should be a few shells over here, or I remember,
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: like I threw a belt down in the bushes there,
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: and they like were kind of like coming back through
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: looking for stuff just wild.
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: Well, they were finding stuff at the battle. I mean
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: for decades. I mean they were still finding stuff that
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: had been lost. And you know, maybe an royal washes
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: out and they find a canteen and one guy, I
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: mean this was involved a court case. It was like
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: maybe in the nineteen sixties or seventies found a pair
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: of binoculars, you kid, Yeah, and then of course he
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: told people about it and he was arrested. It was
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: a huge no kid, Yeah, you're not supposed to take anything, sure,
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: the National Park Service sites or federal land.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: So have you read Plainsmen of the Yellowstone.
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: Yes, but it's been a long time so.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: It's a hell of a book. But there's an interesting take. Like,
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: like I said, I've always been a big, little, big
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: horn buff, you know, and Plainsmen of the Yellowstone he
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: treats it like he's like a lot of like to
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: summarize his view, he's like, you know, everybody loves it,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: everybody writes books about it. It didn't matter. It was
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: a non event. It was a non event. This all
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: lands where it was gonna land where it landed. They
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: were gonna kill them all and bring them onto reservations,
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: and they did. And it's a non event. It was
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: just nothing like if you look at like what actually matters,
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: He's like, it's just it's a thing that historians love
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: to talk about. What it didn't matter.
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: The only reason it's it's huge, of course, is because
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: the guy that was killed George Custer, right, I mean
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: the Civil War, I mean truly an amazing soldier to
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: Civil War. I mean, he earned all the accolades that
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: he got, and he's this darling you know the American
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: Army and Michigan man. Yeah yeah, yeah he uh, the
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: Michigan Brigade, the fighting Wolverines, all that stuff. So but anyway, yeah,
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: I mean, if if it had been some other officer,
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: maybe it wouldn't have been as big a deal or
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: as covered as widely as it was. But it was Custer,
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: you know, the guy that had this amazing reputation. He
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: had fought Indians before at the Washitas, so you know
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: the story about they no one knew who he was,
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: that the La Cosaa giants didn't know it was that's contested.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: It is contest a little bit, but some of the
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: women and that there's a Southern Cheyenne woman that was
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: visiting and was there. She said she recognized him.
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: She did this, that's in my book. Actually, yeah, yeah,
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: she she they were going to scalp and mutilate him
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: and she said, no, no, stop, that's that's he's the
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: husband of Mona Sita, who you know. She claimed that
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: Custer had buried.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: But anyway, and it was her that took the sewing all, yes,
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: and punctured his ear drums.
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: Right, yeah, because that goes back to when he after
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: the Washton in Oklahoma, he met with some Chayan leaders
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: and one of the shy leaders dumped some ashes from
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: his pipe, you know, on his boots, and he said
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: that was so that he would remember next you know,
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: he keep his promise that he would not go against
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: their people or whatever. And and so the reason for
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: puncturing the all into his ear drum was so that
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: he would hear better in the other world now.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: And I think she said maybe I kicked dirt up
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: on him with my horse. I think that's something she said.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: She was like speculating that could have happened, but you know.
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: He was he wasn't apparently, you know, he had like
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: a finger tip cut off, and but he wasn't mutilated
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: like all the other bodies. I mean, Tom Custer was
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: just unrecognizable. And the idea behind that was that in
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: the Land of Ghost, you know, what you did to
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: them in this world, that's how they would be in
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: the Land of Ghost.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's that move of like slash, make it so
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: you can't run, sure, yeah, make it so you can't
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: shoot your ugly, make so you can't make love.
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: Right, So, but no, he was apparently it was very
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: you know, yeah, in good shape.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: I believe there was two guys that weren't touched. One
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: guy was under a pile of dead horses, so that
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: doesn't seem like they found him. And the other guy
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: was Captain Keyo. And Captain Keo had on a he
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: was some I don't know, some like branch of Cathalois
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: and I can't remember, that's right, Yeah, And he had
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: on he had on some kind of emblem, some kind
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: of jewelry that and all this stuff is like it's
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: everybody contradicts everybody, you know, I mean, it's like so
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: and so said this. So and so says that, so
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: and so says no one recognized them. So and so
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: says they recognized them. Either way, he had this thing
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: on this this religious peace.
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: I think he was in a papal guard at one
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: time or something. And it might have been they had
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: to do with that.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: In't anyways, They're like he might be They felt that
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: he might be some kind of religious figure and didn't
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: messle them.
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: Well, he was a highly respected officer. He was one
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: of the more well liked officers in the seventh Cavalry.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: I think his horse is the only thing that survived Comanche.
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: Well, the Lakotas and Chyenne survive.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: Sorry, only like the only I shouldn't see the only
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: thing that survive. What am I trying to say.
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: Of the men with Custer and their horses? I guess
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: they wound up stuffing that horse and then they did.
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: You could go see it in Lawrence, Kansas. Is that
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: it's a the Natural History Museum. Yes, oh yeah, and
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: they've not too long ago they kind of refurbished Comanche.
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: But no, yeah, so he's there because he was at
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: Fort Riley in his last years in Kansas. And uh
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: and yeah, he's fully it's mounted, and he's got a
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: you know McClellan saddle, and uh yeah, yeah, and uh.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: He had some arrow holes in him and some bullet
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: bullet holes. I think crippled up pretty he was.
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean he was, but apparently he was. They
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: felt he would survive. He was in good enough shape,
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: so uh yeah, so they they made sure they kept him,
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: took him back.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: This has nothing to do with that. We'll get on
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: with this in the meant But when after all the
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: buffalo were killed off, we were talking about this in
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: our Hide Hunters thing. After all the buffalo were killed off,
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: you know, horn to Day came out to do to
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: put together museum collection. And he comes out and starts
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: scouring the country between the Yellowstone, Missouri and eastern Montana,
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: trying to find museum specimens works. His ass off. Can't
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: find any. But the biggest bull he finds that he
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: kills for the museum. He kills it. It's already carrying
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: four slugs in it. Oh wow, yeah, already carrying them.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: So they can put up with something.
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: You know, Theodore Roosevelt went into the bad lands, he
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: would just had to kill a buffalo, you know, and
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: later he becomes you know, later he's wanting to preserve
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: the buffalo. But he did it after after he got
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: his buffalo.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Him, he's like, yeah, preservation stars. Now he killed two.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: The second one he regretted a little bit. I think
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: he killed one uh Medora, right outside of Manora, then
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: killed one outside the park somewhere. I believe, didn't he.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: Randall Rail's got PhD in history. Do you got one
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: of those?
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: No? I don't know.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: His is right up there. It's a smaller one underneath
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: my very big one.
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: Oh nice, nice.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: Think of that.
• 17:57
  Speaker 6: Yeah, it's almost like a to scare replica.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: I don't even know why you have that there, because
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: because like guests like you come in will get intimidated.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, you'd be like, oh the big guns. Now
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: yours is a nice frame.
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah you large it?
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I just photo.
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: Large it.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: I want to get into your books. But can we
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: hit you with some because when you did that thing
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: for Wired where you answer Old West quest Yes, can
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: we hit you with some Old West questions?
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: Mold worst questions. I don't know if I'll have the answer,
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: but I'll try.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Is there any reason to believe? Is there any reason
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: whatsoever to believe that people would Uh. Any is there
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: like a famous case example of someone getting shot and
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: falling over a balcony rail like that is like trope
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: of Westerns. I can't Is there like a famous story
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: that inspires all those scenes?
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: Nothing famous. I mean there may be you know, this
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: may have happened sometime in the Old West, but I'm
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: not aware of any famous.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: So just they just like it and it became like
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: a it became a trope, and.
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: I think, so yeah, yeah, now I'll probably get lots
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: of emails. Yeah, oh yeah, you know Frank James knocked
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: that guy off the balcony. No, I don't know of
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: any famous case.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: Were those doors, the swinging doors? Was that a thing?
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: Well, I got in trouble for that, so I didn't
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: think it was.
• 19:27
  Speaker 5: What are they call him batwing doors?
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: Yes, and I you know, I look at historic photos
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: and could not find, you know, these swinging doors, but
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: apparently they were used late in the nineteenth century. But
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: for instance's an episode with Doc Holliday and it gets
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: really nerdy. But you know, Doc Holliday got into a gunfight,
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: a minor gunfight in Leadville and it's in this saloon
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: and it talks about this guy walking in the door,
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: you know, so it's like, well, it wasn't you know
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: these swinging doors he walked in the door. Yeah, and
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: it had glass in it.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: So they don't picture anyone knock here.
• 20:03
  Speaker 7: No.
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, But anyway, but apparently there were, you know, late
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: in the nineteenth century, you did start to see them introduced,
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: and the idea was behind it. They didn't want like
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: children looking in being able to see, and you know
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: in the summertime that's so it kind of blocks their
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: view and also let some air in because I'm sure
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: it was filled full of cigar smoke.
• 20:23
  Speaker 6: And I was going to say, it seems like a seasonable,
• 20:26
  Speaker 6: a seasonal yeah style.
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: And then a lot of these salute that had the
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: swinging doors, they had both doors. They had a door
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: you could close, but also they had to swinging doors
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: as well. So, like you say, in a little privacy screen,
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: it's kind of a privacy screen. Yeah, But I just
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: don't see it prevalent, like in the eighteen seventies Dodge
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: City or Wichita. I just I have not seen any
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: evidence that it was.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: That's a good to look at all those old photos
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: and didn't see them or not exactly.
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and go through the newspaper account. I mean you
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: could even go through advertisements in historic newspapers and oh yeah,
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: here's the new swinging door. You need it for your
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: saloon or whatever.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: But that doesn't this or it does exist.
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: Well, it does exist. Oh the mean the ads ads. No,
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: I have not come across. But apparently there are patents
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: for these kind of spring loaded hinges. I haven't seen them,
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: but I've been told that there's actually patents that were done.
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: So if they swing back and for I mean, you
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: would have to have something, you know, to make it
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: do that.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: I guess if I ever built a house some scratch
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: or do a big remodel, I was already planning on
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: putting in a urinal. Okay, do them damn doors there
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: you go? Yeah, okay, huh, well.
• 21:30
  Speaker 5: Kind of yearnal like a trough or like like like
• 21:34
  Speaker 5: a communal one or.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: What's kind of their alone, Yeah, next to the toilet.
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: I've actually been in restrooms and houses that had those
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: swinging doors or whatever.
• 21:44
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but see, I want to create tension. We're
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna have a very modern home, old swinging doors
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: all right, do you know what I mean? Like it'll
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: like like it creates a power balance between the two
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: motifs for the bedroom. That would be good, right, yeah, yeah,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: okay Rin Krin was saying, you got some insights into
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: you got some insights into cowboy hats. Yes, oh okay,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: cowboy hats.
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: What do you want to know?
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: Like did everybody Okay, let's got yeah, Like what would
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: you regard to be? I know you've said in the past,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: someone said, like when did the wild West end? And
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: you thought the wild West ended with the car?
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: I when when you don't see horses on the streets anymore,
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: that seems to me that that era is gone, you know,
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: so when.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: When it was like that that you were just pointing out,
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: there's ways people defined exactly like some people will say
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: like barbed wire, right, like the open range closed land
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: was owned, it was fenced. The West died and you
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: had to you had to take that, like you view
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: it like when the horse ceases to be the primary
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: mode of transportation.
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and and it I just think the horse is
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: so interwoven with the American West. I mean, uh, you know,
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: cowboys and you know, buggies, you know, and the mules
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: of course, pulling wagon. I mean when you don't see
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: that kind of those animals as transportation, I mean, that's
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: so associated with the West. I mean you don't have
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: a cowboy without a horse. Yeah, I mean there's no
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: cowboys that are just afoot. I mean they're on horseback.
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: And same with the planes Indians. I mean their mobility
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: is because of the horse, and so when the horse
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: is not part of that fabric, I just see that
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: as kind of the end of what you could call
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: the Old West. Now you could argue, is that nineteen thirties,
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: I mean nineteen forties, because you know he's in some
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: places of Wyoming and Montana. I'm sure people are still
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: riding their horses into town. Sure in the nineteen forties,
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: maybe even the fifties.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're all like working on the Manhattan Project and
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: dudes are riding around on horses.
• 23:45
  Speaker 8: Sure, twenty minutes from here, I saw a guy get
• 23:48
  Speaker 8: off his horse and go to Stacy's right in Geluton Gateway.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: Was he being cute?
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: No think I.
• 23:56
  Speaker 8: Think he had the proper jeans and the proper boots,
• 23:58
  Speaker 8: so I don't.
• 24:00
  Speaker 5: And his driver's license was suspended.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: I like to play that game.
• 24:07
  Speaker 6: Whenever we see an adult on a bicycle.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: What are those little scooter you know, those little like
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: hover hoverboard. Yeah, but there's no handlebars on one of
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: those are called hoverboardsboards? Yeah, their day just not far
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: from here. On Kagi is the guy going down the
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: road on one of those with a white cowboy hat
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: on the phone.
• 24:35
  Speaker 8: Taking a picture of that and sent it to us
• 24:38
  Speaker 8: CRUI No.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: He wasn't like no, I was the world wasn't a
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: hipster vibe. Let's get more of a crazy guy just
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: like everything about it. I was like a local eccentric. Yeah,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to weigh stereotypes to the reality real quick.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Just gy have a handful of these. You go to,
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: let's pick a your eighteen seventy Okay, is it really
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: like in eighteen seventies? It really There is the wide
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: brimmed hat, and that's like it. No, everyone all men
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: wear a hat, and all men wear a cowboy style hat.
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't think so, No, No, I don't. I mean,
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: you know, your cowboys in the seventies, they're gonna have
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: some kind of a wide brimmed hat. But I think
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: that they're if you look at historic photos there's a
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: lot of variety even into how they wear them. I mean,
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: you know some guys have their hats tilted up. Yeah,
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: you know, the lily crowns are creased. I mean, there's
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: just a lot of difference. Uh So, I just don't
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: think you can say there's one standard. You can probably
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: look at what's work.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, I mean the broader family of like like
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: a hat with a body of a hat and then
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: a wide circular brim.
• 25:54
  Speaker 6: Yes, a hat that a tourist would buy on vacation.
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's pretty standard.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: It's like like when you leave home in eighteen seventy,
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: if you're a man, you're not bald at you like,
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: you're not hatless.
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: No, no, no, the hat is yeah, very common. Now
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: a little bit later you have the introduction of the
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: bowler hat, the Derby hat or whatever. And there was
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: a story about in Tombstone if somebody came in wearing
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: a Derby hat, that Doc Holliday would go around with
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: the triangle, ringing a bell behind him and kind of
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: harassing them or whatever because they stuck out.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: You know, they were a little bit What was he calling
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: them out about.
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: I think because they were like a newbie or like
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: a dude or you know, it's just maybe a little
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: uppity or something or this kind of latest fashion, and
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: so he's going around. But you know, apparently he was
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: reported as word a Derby hat later a few years later.
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: So I don't know how if that looks like it's
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: a bowldy, you see, I'm true.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: Like a lot of the later gunfighters had those kind.
• 26:49
  Speaker 5: Of well often there's like an English villain in the
• 26:52
  Speaker 5: kind of movies that wears a.
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: Bold yeah, and you know bat maaster Center. I think
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: there's a photo of him wearing a Derby hat, you know,
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: later in his.
• 26:59
  Speaker 5: Career, where slip on cowboy boots with jangly metal spurs
• 27:04
  Speaker 5: that announce their presence.
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: Well, they definitely wore cowboy boots, you know, and they
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: could go up to the knee. There's different styles of
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: those boots. One of the more interesting to me is
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: what they call a mulear boot. Have you heard of this?
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: So on the sides, instead of having the leather loops
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: that you would pull, there's a long leather strap on
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: each side that you could grab onto and pull you
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: and they called a muliar boots.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: You can just just a strap, not a loop, just a.
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: Strap, Yeah, a long strap maybe like that long that
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: you would grab hold of. Those were fairly popular.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: And then you tuck them inside.
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: No, you leave them on the outside. They're flapping on
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: the outside.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: Oh, hence the name muleers.
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, And I you know, there's different theories, uh
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: in the I mean these boots, you know, they could
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: they could be very tall. They go up to the
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: knee or whatever, and you're out on the range and
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: their boots are sweaty when you take them off at night,
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: they get wet, and you know it might be a
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: little nicer to have something to really grab hold of
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: to pull those on.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: You know the story of Billy the kid the night
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: he was killed and he was in his stocking feet,
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: and a lot of people think that, oh, you know,
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: he would never walk across that parade ground and his
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: stocking feet, and and it's like, do you want to
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: pull your boots back on after you've taken them off
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: You've been in them all day, and no, it might
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: be easier to walk over here, across the corner and
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: get that slab of meat and just leave the boots behind.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: So you know, when he went over when Billy the
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: Kid went over to get a chunk of meat off
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: that thing, Like, what was the sort of situation, Like,
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: is it just sort of matter of course that there's
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: a there's a side of beef hanging in the courtyard.
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: Well, no, it's not a matter of course, but he
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: had been told. So he gets in really late to
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: this house at fourt summer, this adobe building, and he's hungry.
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: And the woman in the house, who is Pat Garritt's
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: sister in law, Billy the Kid's girlfriend. Though there's some
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: dispute on whether she was the girlfriend. The family says
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: that they were not boyfriend girlfriend, so we don't know
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: for sure, but he was staying there and she had
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: a husband he was there too, But anyway, she tells
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: him that there's a sight of beef hanging over at
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: Pete Maxwell's place. So that's why he goes over there
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: with the butcher knife and his gun because if he
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: gets the meat, she was gonna cook it up for him.
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: And then that's where, you know, he meets Garrett's two
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: guards or deputies i should say, are outside and they
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: don't know what they don't know what Billy the Kid
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: looks like, and They just they think he's a ranch
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: hand or he works for Pete Maxwell. But as soon
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: as Billy approaches them, he sees these guys in the
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: shadows and he pulls his gun right away, and he's
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: going ke and s ke and s you know who
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: is it? And John Poe, one of the deputies, is saying, Okay,
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: calm down, friend, you know we're not gonna hurt you
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: or whatever you and but they don't know it's Billy.
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: And that's when he gets up on the porch. She
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: backs into the room. Pat Garrett is on the side
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: of Maxwell's bed and he recognizes Billy's voice, as does
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: Pete Maxwell. He says, that's him and Pat Garrett. Now
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: here's the thing. You know, people are on Pat Garrett's like,
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: oh you shot. You didn't give Billy a chance to
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: kill you?
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: Well, you know, Billy the kid had said he was
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: gonna kill Pat Garrett the next time he saw him,
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: and he'd already killed a Lincoln County sheriff in a
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: Lincoln County deputy. And why would Pat Garrett give this
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: guy a chance? You know? It's like it was Billy
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: the kids. So he shoots right away. Sure, the first
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: shot gets him in the heart. Uh, and then he
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: fires a second shot. You know, there's there's it's a
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: moonlit night. But if you fired a Colt revolver, black
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: powder smoke, I mean this smoke fills the room. And
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: so he fires right away, you know, you want to
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: make sure he got him. Of course, Billy had already
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: clasped by then he runs out and Pete Maxwell runs out,
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: and they almost shoot Pete Maxwell, the deputies because you know,
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: these guys are outside, they hear a gunshot and they
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: don't know what's going on, and anyway, and don't don't
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: shoot that's Pete, you know whatever. And then they get
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: a they light a candle, put it in the window,
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: and they see his body inside and they've got Billy
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: the Kid. But but anyway Pat Garrett was saying, is
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: pet Grett wrote a book later called The Authentic Life
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: of Billy the Kid, and he says, people, if accused
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: me of hiding behind a cat couch, and he says,
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: if third bit of couch I would have been hiding
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: behind it, why would I You know, I'm not an idiot,
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: you know.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but that whole thing of like being a
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: chivalrous around shooting. I mean the way we hit dudes
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: now we do it from outer space.
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, well this is.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: I mean it's like, you know, you're just driving down
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: the road your car. You know, it's not like someone
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: comes on. It's like stick them up, yeah, or.
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: In your boat.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: But well here's Steve. Here's the thing about that. It's like,
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: and I think what's so amazing about White Herb. I
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: mean most of his job, or a lot of his job,
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: was disarming drunken cowboys. I mean there were these laws
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: in these towns, you know, whether it was Wichita or
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: Dodge City, you can't carry a gun. And so today,
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: I mean you can go to YouTube and if a
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: policeman sees a gun, they shout gun and the fireworks start.
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: You know, I mean, you're gonna be dead. But Wider
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: went up to these guys and he would physically disarmed
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: then and usually his technique he was hit him in
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: the head with the you know, the barrel of his revolver.
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: But he was so close quarters time and again in
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: disarming these guys. And you know, he had no training.
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: There was no police academy. Then the goat no, you know,
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: there was nobody knew about karate or whatever. I mean,
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: It's like he had to physically disarm him. And I
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: tell you, lots of officers got killed disarming cowboys. So
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: ed Masterson, he was the sheriff or the Marshall and
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: Dodge City. He was killed disarming a cowboy.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: Fred he.
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: Was a brother, Fred White and Tombstone. And if you
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: saw the movie, you know you see where Curly Bill
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: kills you know, Fred White was trying to disarm and
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: he grabbed the gun and pulled it towards him, and
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: the gun goes off and he gets a mortal wound.
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: So it was a very dangerous thing to be a
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: law officer disarming cowboys. And they didn't do it at
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: a distance, you know, they did it up close. Bat
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: Masterson said, Whiter was the bravest man he'd ever known.
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: He showed no fear whatsoever, and he survived. He never
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: got wounded, I mean, which is kind of bizarre too.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: So what do you what do you take of the
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: I see here that Wyatt's six shooters up for sale
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: right now? Yes, okay, yeah, it's being auction. Yeah, I
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: haven't pulled up the link yet.
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well you know it's Uh, it's one of those
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: things where the auction says it comes with a binder
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: full of providence, and the providence is this, So this.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: One I'm looking at sight right, Okay.
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: So this man was a friend of whiteb and also
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: a friend of Josephine. But who is White's wife's forty five? Yes,
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: and it was purchased in They have the cult letter.
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: So it was purchased in Los Angeles at a store
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: in nineteen twenty two. WHITEERB doesn't die till nineteen twenty nine.
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: So this man who is a friend of Wyatt, he dies,
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: but then his son remains close to Josephine, Wyatt's wife,
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: and the son got the revolve and then he told
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: his children Josephine told me that this was Wyatt's gun.
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: So we don't have a letter from Josephine saying it's
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: why it's gun. We have this guy's word, the son
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: of the man who was a friend and their children,
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: the grandchildren are saying, you know, here's our you know,
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: and they signed notarized statements and all that kind of thing.
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: But also, I mean, Josephine was known to acquire a
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: gun or two and claim that it belonged to Wyatt.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: Jesse James's mom did the same thing. She would buy
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: guns and oh yeah, this belonged to my son, and
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: she ah, and she would make money. She actually this
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: is funny. So they would they would sell at Jesse
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: james grave. He was very next to the house there
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: in cart near Carney initially, and they would sell pebbles
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: from the grave of Jesse.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: I'd buy one of those.
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: Oh I would too. But then when they ran out
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: of pebbles, they went to the creek and got more
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: pebbles and put up on the grave. So I get
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: you know, it's still from his grave, but it might
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: wasn't there a long time? A short time. So every
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: white erp gun, there's a question on providence. I mean,
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: it's you're just not sure. And to me, it may
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: very well be true. You know, that story may be true.
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: But like I said, I you know anymore, uh, anymore,
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: you would almost have to have somebody dig up white
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: and put the gun out of his grave to say,
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: you know, yeah, that was for sure.
• 35:27
  Speaker 8: Uh.
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: And it's the same thing with all of these Old
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: West figures and outlaws. And there's such a big money
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: involved in One of the bangs of a historian's existence
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: is that courthouses have been rated of documents with white
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: Earth any.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: Earth versus just the documents valuable.
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean they'll clip the signatures and and uh.
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: And I know of the case is when I was
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: researching this book that you know white Earp's you know
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: certificate where he commissioned is a law a lawman in Missouri.
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: Nobody knows where it is. Fortunately there's a there's a
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: microfilm copy of it. But people have gone in and
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: these county courthouses that are not well protected or secured,
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: especially the remote ones Lincoln County, New Mexico, a lot
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: of government legal documents with Pat Garrett's name on it
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: have been stolen. In fact, a few years ago there
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: was a collection. It was offered at auction and the
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: state of New Mexico went in and then they were
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: county records. I mean there were legal government documents, and
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: they approached the auction company and said these belonged to
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: us and the family. In order to avoid they just
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: donated him back to the state. And here's the thing
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: people should know, Steve, is that if it's a government document,
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: it never ceases to be a government document. Even if
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: you found it at the dump, it's still a government document.
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: So something comes up for sale that's a league like
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: a land patent or whatever it is. If it's a county,
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: you know, like a warrant for arrest or whatever, don't
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: buy it because you know it doesn't belong to the public.
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: It belongs to that county or the state or wherever
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: it can from. But a lot of collectors he just
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: can't resist. Oh, I gotta have this. It's got Pat
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: Garrett's signature on or whatever. But anyway, it makes a
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: historian's life a nightmare because you know, it's removing the
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: historical record, and so we're missing chunks of information because
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: these documents ended up in private hands that are taken
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: out of these courthouses, and then sometimes they're you know,
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: they're destroyed or lost or whatever, so we don't even
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: know what we're missing. So it makes it really really tough.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: I got a buddy, well he's dead now, but he
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: was a very well known arrowhead hunter. He's kind of
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: like an outlaw turned good arrowhead hunter. He was down
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: in Colorado. He'd been an oil he'd been an oil engineer,
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: oil executive. I came here with he like came up
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: through engineering, became an executive, but was a big arrowhead
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: hunter and then turned legit, started volunteering for site surveys
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: and whatnot. Anyhow, I was driving around him one day
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: in New Mexico and he's telling me a story. He
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: he's at some kind of a state sail or yard
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: sale or something or another, and he sees a fulsome
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: point bolo tie, Oh wow, and like something about the
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: patination on it, like he knew it was a foalsome point.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: It wasn't a fake, Like he just looked. He said,
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: I looked at it, and I knew what I was
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: looking at. That was a falsome point glued to the
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: just like you got on right, Okay. I wish I
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: remember where it came from. He telled me the whole story.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: He buys it for next to nothing, peels that falsome
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: point off there and on it is still the museum
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: coding number.
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: Oh wow.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: And he found the home for it.
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: Oh nice.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: Somebody just walked away and it was like, rolls it
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: over and it's like I'm making this up, like a
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: zero one one nine or something where they do like
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: white out and then put a thing on there and
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: then and then like nail polish over.
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: It or whatever. Yeah, No, that's that's the boy stuff.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: Well, it's just like like you're saying, like people was walking. Yeah.
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: Well, you know, my wife was a curator at the
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: City of Colorad Springs Museum several years ago and she
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: had a woman come in and it was with a
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: Van Bige Vanbrigil vase and Van Bergel was a very
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: well known early pottery maker in Colorado Springs. So anyway,
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: she brings it in because she wanted my wife to
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: give her some information on it. Well, my wife takes it,
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: looks at the bottom and there's an accession number on
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: it and it's from their museum, and my wife's my
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: wife says, this is an accession number. The lady grabbed
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: it out of her hands and ran out of the buildings. Yeah,
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: she got it like a yard sale or something. But anyway,
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: they tracked her down and a lawyers were involved, but
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: we got they got the vase bag. But no, it's
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: like the lady, I mean, she did not want to
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: hear this. I mean because those pots, those faces. It
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: was probably like a thirty or forty thousand dollars van
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: brigle Vase. But no, she rap it and took off.
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: It's like I'm out of here, you know.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: Uh. The other day, a couple weekends go, I was
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: at my buddy's wedding down in New Mexico, Jeremy Romero.
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: He's getting married. I you know his wife, Shannon. I
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: saw it. Never clicked her made family's names and all
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: that in her background, Like I mostly know him. Anyways,
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: in the in the whatever the hell the ceremony, they
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: throw a nod to Grandpa Art mm hmmmmm yeah, And
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: I said, do you mean like the later when you're
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: supposed to say congratulations? Later we're supposed to congratulations. I'm like,
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: does that mean like the IRPs? And she didn't know
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: where everybody fit with, like the irt family.
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: Suddenly he became very interested.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, does anyone have any objections to this union? Actually,
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: more of a question here got perked up during the ceremony. So,
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: so you your new book Wider Doc Holliday and a
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: reckoning in Tombstone. Oh, let me hitt you with this
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: one further. Do you feel that what Doc Holliday, that
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: the script was wrong? They screwed the script up in Tombstone.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: Doc Holladay should have been saying, I'll be your huckle bearer.
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: That's that's an urban legend, huckle bearer. Oh yeah it is, Yeah.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: That's what I I didn't say, that's what it said. No, no,
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: check me on answered yeah yeah. But he did it
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: like an accusation.
• 41:33
  Speaker 7: Oh yeah, yeah.
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: I was not implying that you that you were wrong. True, yeah, no,
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: it's not. No, no, hell is he talking about? Well
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: you can find that. I mean, actually that came up
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: recently and I looked through newspapers dot com and like
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: one of the first references is in the eighteen fifties
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: and it was regarding like so and so we're gonna,
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: you know, he wants you to be you know, or
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: have a shooting match. And the guy goes, yeah, I'll
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: be your huckleberry, Like yeah, but not huckle bearer, No,
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: not huggle Because.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: The urban legend is that they used to use like
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: huckle wood for the rails on a what do you
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: call the grave thing, a box a castin that the
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: coffin had like handrails, and the handrails they would use
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: like huckle wood, like a huckleberry. Well, I don't make
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: any sense.
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't even know what a huckle tree looks like.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: So well it's if it's a huckleberry tree, it's a
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: mighty thin ra Yeah.
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: But no, that's that's that's not true. That's not true.
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: And I have heard that that story about the huckle bearer,
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: but no huckleberry, you know, And.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: What does it mean, I'll be your huckle boy.
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: Well that means I'm game. But I don't know the
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: origins why it's associated with the word huckleberry. But it's
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: just the implication is, oh, yeah, I'm game, I'm your man.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: Or whatever you like out like a trout in like Flynn.
• 42:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: Maybe you're looking.
• 42:51
  Speaker 6: There's the idea that you're looking for huckleberries.
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: And what I found and I didn't even I don't
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: even know.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: I don't even know if the people spitball in here.
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: I don't even know if the people that said it
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: knew what it knew where it came from. And that's
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: one of those phrases where oh yeah, I'm here, and
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: people just started using Now. I don't think it was
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: that common, but it was. It was at least in
• 43:12
  Speaker 4: the nineteenth century. It was used now I have never
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: seen Doc Holiday at a contemporary source saying I'm your huckleberry.
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: But Kevin Jar, the scriptwriter, was a brilliant screw. I mean,
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: he did research and he really looked at the historical
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: record and somewhere he came across that phrase, which was brilliant.
• 43:30
  Speaker 4: You know, I'm your huckleberry. And Val Kilmer did it
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: exceptionally well. But one of the neat things about the
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: movie Tonbestone is there are lots I mean, Kevin Jar
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: found lots of quotes. For instance, uh, you're a daisy
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: if you have or you're a daisy. That actually is
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: in the testimony from after the Ok Corral gunfight, Kurt
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: Russell says, or one of the one of the Earth
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: says it's a regular slaughter house. Well, that came from
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: the diary of John Parson, who is a minor. I mean,
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: so there's Jar did his research and there's lots of phrases.
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: And I have to agree with Kurt Russell who said
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: before that, you know, the thing that stands out about
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: Tombstone is all the quotes. It's one of the most
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: quotable westerns ever.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: You know, you know, you know what, here's a good
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: if you're a screenwriter out there listening or an aspiring screenwriter,
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: there's a lesson to be learned here. People love to
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: quote Full Metal Jacket, Stanley Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket. Everything
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: memorable that anybody says in Stanley Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: is taken verbatim from Michael Hare's book Dispatches. When he
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: was sent to cover the Vietnam War for Esquire magazine,
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: and instead of going and doing what everybody else did
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: at the time, which is go talk to Wes Moreland
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: or like the brass Right and talk about strategy and
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: body counts and money spent and money wasted, he just
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: went and spent years talking to grunts. And Dispatches is
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: about he cruise around with Errol Flint's kit, shean Flynt,
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: who's a photographer. He just went around Vietnam everywhere and
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: talked to grunts. And so when you read Dispatches, which
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: is his account of his time in Vietnam, Kubrick teamed
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: up with him. All the quotes how can you shoot
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: the women and children? And you don't lead him as much?
• 45:20
  Speaker 4: Oh God, yes?
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: From the movie right, which is from the book it's all.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: It's all stuff dudes say to her hair. Howard Avery
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: says his name, it's all stuff people say to him,
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: and it's all and it's all those memorable lines from
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: from Full Metal Jack. So it's an interesting deal with
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: this guy that like those great quotes like I'll like
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: I'll be your huckleberry, right becomes just no one knew
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: what the hell that mant No, but it's like it's
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: because it was the thing.
• 45:49
  Speaker 4: And it's on T shirts now you can buy a
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: T shirt that says I'm your huckleberry. But is Michael
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: here the one that wrote that there's nothing as vicious
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: as a teenage boy or something like that, or he
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: might have Yeah, I think that comes from him, or.
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: The war kind of killed him in a way. He
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: didn't do much, like he reached like his zenith. He
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: even explains and the end of Dispatches how hard it
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: was to come home because he is from Berkeley, and
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: he came home he talked about people would expect him
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: to condemn everything, but all he could talk about was
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: how beautiful he thought it all was, Like it messed
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: him up. He never did much anything. He was like
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: the dude that wrote dispatches. You know, like the book
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: killed him. It was like true mc capodi, like writing
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: in Cold Blood kind of killed him. Talk about wider
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: like as a kid or whatever. You don't like, where's
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: the guy like that come from.
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: So he's born in Illinois eighteen forty eight. His father
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: was a Mexican War veteran very short time, just a
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: few months in the Mexican War. But I mean, you know,
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: it's it's Midwest farming family. His father, you know, ran
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: a kind of a grocery store in Monmouth, Illinois. Then
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: they moved to Pella, Iowa. I mean, really, there's nothing
• 47:04
  Speaker 4: exceptional about his childhood, and there's very few stories about him.
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: I mean, you know, they talk about schoolyard fights or something.
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: But what's odd about White Earth is that the only
• 47:14
  Speaker 4: stories that we really detailed stories about his childhood come
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: from him when he's dictating. I mean, you would think
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: somebody in Mama, oh yeah, they live next to us,
• 47:23
  Speaker 4: the guys that fought at the OK Corral. Yeah, they
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: were my neighbors, and this is what they did. There's
• 47:27
  Speaker 4: nothing like that either in Illinois or Iowa. And so
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: I just find that kind of odd.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: But and he wasn't tangled up in the Civil War thll.
• 47:35
  Speaker 4: No, his brothers were. He had three brothers that fought
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: for the North, but he tried to join. Is a
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: famous story. He was like fourteen years old and he
• 47:45
  Speaker 4: runs away from home at fourteen. Yeah. Yeah, well his
• 47:49
  Speaker 4: brothers were in and it's like, you know, so so
• 47:53
  Speaker 4: different from wars today. Everybody wanted to join. Everybody wanted
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: to go to war. I mean, you wanted to be
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: a hero. You wanted to you know and fight, you know,
• 48:01
  Speaker 4: fight the ReBs and the other side the same thing.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: So U I gotta hold you up on that, Okay,
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: I'm just curious, not just gonna cough. Oh sure is
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: that that? That's like there was there was an enthusiasm
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: to fight that war. Oh yeah, I mean well because
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: that was that war. That was no joke.
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: No it was not.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: But you're getting you get involved in that war, you're
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: got a very good chance something's gonna happen to you.
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: Part of it is expectation. I mean, you're you're a
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: young man, You're expected. You know, you're you're gonna go
• 48:28
  Speaker 4: to war. You're gonna fight for your country. But also
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: part of it is is is looked at. I mean,
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: it's the glory. Uh. You know, Custer gets knocked for
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: being a glory hunter. But you're not going to advance
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: in the army unless you get glory, unless you have victories.
• 48:44
  Speaker 4: You you you win at war. So it was expected.
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: And then if you want to seek political office later,
• 48:50
  Speaker 4: I mean, look at how many generals advanced into political
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: office after the war. I mean, it would help your career.
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: I mean, Grant becomes president, right, I mean, and so
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: many of them congressmen and senators, and so it was
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: a whole different mindset in the nineteenth century. And then
• 49:06
  Speaker 4: everything you read as a kid, well, for instance, Theodore
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: Roosevelt born in eighteen fifty nine, all through the Civil War,
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: I mean he seeing Harper's Weekly and Frank Leslie's and
• 49:14
  Speaker 4: they've got these giint engravings of these glorious battles. And
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: they're not in color. You know, they're black and white.
• 49:20
  Speaker 4: You don't see the blood, you don't see the drip,
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: you don't see the men beheaded by a cannon ball.
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: I mean it looks so glorious and thrilling, and so
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: there's all this kind of manliness involved. Yet let's go
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: off and we're gonna fight and we're gonna become heroes.
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: And of course they realized later that it's awful. It's horrible,
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: it's ugly. So no, they're they're you know Whyatt wanted
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: to join and his brothers, you know, and of course
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: the option for you know why could either join the
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: army or he can stay home and plant that stupid
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: cornfield that he hated. You know, he didn't want to
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: be a farmer, but that's what his father had him doing.
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: His father told him, hey, you know, you're this food
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: goes to your brothers in the war, and white Events
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: is like, you know, well, I'm gonna starve with them
• 50:00
  Speaker 4: because I'm going to go fight the revs. And he
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: runs away from home. His father tracks him down and
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: he's you know why, it's all excited. He's already got grounded,
• 50:09
  Speaker 4: he got well, yeah, essentially. But he sees his father
• 50:12
  Speaker 4: in his hotel and he thinks his father doesn't see him,
• 50:15
  Speaker 4: and he rushes back home. Well, his father had spotted him,
• 50:18
  Speaker 4: and he almost got a whipping, but his mother saved him,
• 50:21
  Speaker 4: and his father made him promise. It says, you will
• 50:23
  Speaker 4: not join the military without the permission of your mother
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: and you will attend to the cornfield. And so that
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: was it. And then the family ends up leaving during
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: the war and going to California. And I think the
• 50:36
  Speaker 4: reason was Nicholas Irp. He already had three men that
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: had gone to fight. He opposed the war. He was
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: what they call a copperhead. He was a Democrat, but
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: a copperhead. They were opposed to the war because they
• 50:44
  Speaker 4: thought the war was really becoming about slavery and abolition.
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: And what he wanted to be about, well, he thought it.
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: Was about the constitution. Initially it was supposed to be
• 50:53
  Speaker 4: out the Constitution and keeping the Union together. Why the
• 50:56
  Speaker 4: term copper well, I don't know where that comes from.
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: Actually copperhead.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: So you're like a democrat and you don't want to
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: be involved in the war about slavery.
• 51:05
  Speaker 4: So not an abolitionist, no, oh no, that's and that
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: was what they were really opposed to, the abolitionists stance,
• 51:10
  Speaker 4: because they felt they felt they became a war about abolitionism.
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: Which they didn't care about.
• 51:15
  Speaker 4: No, no, And and you know Nicholas Irp, I mean
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: you know, he had the racist views of the period.
• 51:20
  Speaker 4: He didn't think it was worth fighting to free these
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: people that didn't deserve it. So I think one of
• 51:25
  Speaker 4: the reasons to go to California. He opposed the war,
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: but he's also taking his sons out of harm's way.
• 51:30
  Speaker 4: He's getting white you know why it wants to join
• 51:32
  Speaker 4: We're going to go to California. He had younger brothers,
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: Morgan and Warren, and who knows at this time it's
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: eighteen sixty four. They don't know how long this war's
• 51:40
  Speaker 4: going to go. It might go for another two or
• 51:41
  Speaker 4: three years. And I don't want my sons, you know,
• 51:44
  Speaker 4: in this war that I disagree with, so they go
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: to California. So that was that was you know why
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: why it's closest encounter with the Civil War was his
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: attempt to join up, but he got caught.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: Any of his brothers get killed there.
• 51:57
  Speaker 4: No one brother. Jim was so badly wounded in his
• 52:02
  Speaker 4: arm that it was his arm was unusable, so he
• 52:05
  Speaker 4: kept his arm, but he just you know, couldn't use it.
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: And the Virgil I don't think he was wounded in
• 52:11
  Speaker 4: the war. And then he had a half brother, Newton,
• 52:14
  Speaker 4: and he survived the war.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: Also, where did he go from California? Like, how did
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: he get tangled up with hunting buffalo down in Texas
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: and his kind of his whole gang did like the
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: dudes he began to be associated with, did.
• 52:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he met bat Masterson on the buffalo planes. Of course,
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: you know it's a little murky as to the chronology
• 52:32
  Speaker 4: because he claimed. Now you know Whyett's thing was he
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: had a lot in his past that he preferred not
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: get out to the public. I mean, he wanted to
• 52:41
  Speaker 4: tell a story, but.
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: Such as what.
• 52:43
  Speaker 4: Well, so he's he's a constable in Missouri for just
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: about well less than a year, and he loses his
• 52:50
  Speaker 4: wife there. He absconds with tax moneys he had collected
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: that were supposed to go to the county and gets
• 52:57
  Speaker 4: his family in trouble because his father and uncle had
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: signed sties on this bond, thousand dollars bond. He ends
• 53:03
  Speaker 4: up getting arrested for stealing a horse in Oklahoma.
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: Is he a pimp for a while?
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: Well, that's what I'm getting to. So, so from that
• 53:11
  Speaker 4: horse theft thing, he escapes from jail, he says at
• 53:15
  Speaker 4: that point, and he never mentioned he never admits to
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: stealing the horse or any of the other things, but
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: he says, then I went to the Buffalo Range and
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: I was able to make five thousand dollars in hides
• 53:25
  Speaker 4: or whatever. Well, there's an interval in there where he
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: went to Peoria, Illinois and he's living in the home
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: of a prostitute. There's a prostitute that claims to be
• 53:35
  Speaker 4: his wife, and he's actually running a brothel. According to
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: the arrest records, he's he's arrested as a pimp and
• 53:42
  Speaker 4: one of his his last brothel operation, which I think
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: is kind of hilarious. It was a floating brothel on
• 53:48
  Speaker 4: the river.
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, was it to get out of like the
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: like like how you would have to gamble on the
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: river to get out state regulation?
• 53:55
  Speaker 4: I don't know, because they still arrested him, but in
• 53:59
  Speaker 4: the book I say it was. It was the true
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: definition of a pleasure boat. But uh, anyway, joke. Yeah,
• 54:04
  Speaker 4: So so he got arrested a few In fact, one
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: time he got.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: He had a boat, yes, like what kind of like
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: a keel.
• 54:11
  Speaker 4: I think it was like some kind of a flat
• 54:12
  Speaker 4: boat or it wasn't an extravage. It wasn't like not no, no, yeah,
• 54:17
  Speaker 4: it wasn't. It wasn't one of these luxury boats. No,
• 54:20
  Speaker 4: it wasn't like that at all. I think it was
• 54:21
  Speaker 4: a pretty basic boat. But he was arrested more than once.
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: And one time when he was arrested, uh, it was
• 54:28
  Speaker 4: going to charge him like forty four dollars and he
• 54:30
  Speaker 4: didn't have the money, so he chose to be in jail,
• 54:32
  Speaker 4: him and his brother Morgan. So they sat out there there,
• 54:35
  Speaker 4: you know, time in jail, and then they went back
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: to doing the same thing. That's when they got the
• 54:39
  Speaker 4: boat or whatever.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: I want to narrow one on his boat. Okay, why
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: are they running a uh like, why are they running
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: a cathouse on a boat?
• 54:51
  Speaker 4: Well, I think it's the mobility moving target. Yeah, yeah,
• 54:56
  Speaker 4: that's yeah. No, I think it's like you could the
• 54:58
  Speaker 4: idea is and I'm kind of speculating here. I mean
• 55:01
  Speaker 4: you could again, you could move from place to place
• 55:04
  Speaker 4: or maybe move to a different town you know, down
• 55:06
  Speaker 4: the river or whatever and conduct your business.
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: So but but it's funny that we laughed so hard
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: about this years ago. Is uh, you'res to call there's
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: this whole dispute in this town where like this town
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: is trying to ban ice fishing. Okay, remember this, Yeah,
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: this town is trying to ban ice fishing. There's like
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: this city councilman who is given like the speech at
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: the at the town meeting, and he's talking about, well,
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: if you allow ice fishing, then people are gonna have
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: ice shanties. Okay, if you bring in ice shanties, that's prostitution.
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: And that killed it, right, and the guy became like
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: the laughing style, you know. But it was like, but
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: when you're talking about the boat, I'm just trying to
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: I don't know, just somehow I thought like why, like
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: I don't get like the connection. Yeah, but yeah, you
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: just can move around.
• 55:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah exactly, Yeah, and who knows. I mean maybe it
• 55:58
  Speaker 4: was a really inexpensive rather than have a you know,
• 56:02
  Speaker 4: go to some building in town. But like you say, yeah,
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: you're mobile, and uh, maybe you're here one night and
• 56:07
  Speaker 4: the next night you tell you tell your guys they
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: were gonna be on here five miles or whatever.
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: Was his wife like, would you imagine was his wife
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: a madam or was she an actual worker?
• 56:18
  Speaker 4: Well, so he had four wives and or significant he
• 56:22
  Speaker 4: only there's only one legal record marriage record for his
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: first wife, but the wife he had in Peoria, she
• 56:29
  Speaker 4: apparently was not a madam but was actually a work girl.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: Now later yes, later apparently uh this uh this wife
• 56:42
  Speaker 4: when he was in Wichita because she came with him,
• 56:45
  Speaker 4: and apparently she was a madam or running a brothel.
• 56:49
  Speaker 4: And you know, it's it's it's it's it's really sad
• 56:52
  Speaker 4: because these are one side of affairs. I mean, uh,
• 56:55
  Speaker 4: you know, let's say Doc Holidays, you know, big nos Kate.
• 57:00
  Speaker 4: I mean a lot of times these these prostitutes, they
• 57:03
  Speaker 4: had gamblers as their partners, and it's like, well, you know,
• 57:07
  Speaker 4: you lose a lot of money at the table while
• 57:09
  Speaker 4: you're having your your wife, you know, make you're taking
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: her money basically, or you're just freeloading off of them
• 57:14
  Speaker 4: and just adding a little getting a little protection form.
• 57:17
  Speaker 4: You're not really doing much work of the protection. So
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: it's it's a sad. It's uneven, I should say, as
• 57:23
  Speaker 4: those relationships predatory exactly. Yeah. So but anyway, I the
• 57:28
  Speaker 4: way I look at so so White had these unseemly
• 57:32
  Speaker 4: things about his past, but he was in his early twenties.
• 57:35
  Speaker 4: I mean, and uh, you know, I a little sympathetic
• 57:40
  Speaker 4: because he he grew out of that, he became different,
• 57:44
  Speaker 4: he aspired to something better, uh and when he ends
• 57:46
  Speaker 4: up in Wichita as a policeman, even though his wife
• 57:49
  Speaker 4: is still a prostitute. Uh, He's they rave about him
• 57:52
  Speaker 4: as a policeman there, and when he's in Dodge City
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: the same thing. I mean, he's like the best policeman
• 57:57
  Speaker 4: they've ever had. And when he gets to Tombstone, you know,
• 57:59
  Speaker 4: he wants to run for county sheriff. I mean he's
• 58:01
  Speaker 4: trying to better himself. And one of the things about
• 58:04
  Speaker 4: the American West is that you can leave your past behind.
• 58:07
  Speaker 4: I mean there's nobody on the internet looking you up,
• 58:11
  Speaker 4: you know like they do today. I mean, you know,
• 58:13
  Speaker 4: finding your high school yearbook photo or you dressed up
• 58:15
  Speaker 4: in some weird character. I mean, it's that you can
• 58:18
  Speaker 4: escape your past.
• 58:19
  Speaker 5: Why was he moving from place to place to be like?
• 58:23
  Speaker 5: Was he following money? Was he getting recruited? Was he
• 58:26
  Speaker 5: getting in trouble and having to leave?
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: Like why did he bounce it? It's a combination of
• 58:30
  Speaker 4: all those things. So he had a good job. He
• 58:32
  Speaker 4: was well respected in Wichita, but he got in a
• 58:34
  Speaker 4: fight there. There was a man that was running against
• 58:37
  Speaker 4: his boss, who for sheriff, and this man had said
• 58:41
  Speaker 4: some unsavory things about why Ittt's brothers, and so he
• 58:44
  Speaker 4: hauled off and hit him. Well, you know, he got
• 58:47
  Speaker 4: arrested and fined, and he was dismissed from the police force.
• 58:50
  Speaker 4: Almost immediately there after, the mayor of Dodge City learns
• 58:54
  Speaker 4: that Widrop's available, and so he sends him a letter
• 58:57
  Speaker 4: offering in more pay, you know, and the the cattle
• 59:00
  Speaker 4: herd trade had shifted west. They have you heard of
• 59:04
  Speaker 4: the deadline? You've heard of the phrase called the deadline.
• 59:07
  Speaker 4: So yeah, So there was a tick born disease called
• 59:14
  Speaker 4: Spanish fever, and the Kansas legislature they had a line.
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: Not a livestock disease, but a human disease.
• 59:20
  Speaker 4: No livestock, and they did not want these Texas cattle
• 59:23
  Speaker 4: infecting the herds and the more settled places of Kansas.
• 59:28
  Speaker 5: They're worried about coming back.
• 59:29
  Speaker 4: Now I don't know, I haven't heard about that.
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: So anyway, there's Texas fever. Well they kept they use
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: that they spray those nilghai with that automated spray gun
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: to try to like get the tick off right.
• 59:42
  Speaker 4: Okay, Well, it was a tick born disease, so they
• 59:45
  Speaker 4: kept moving the line west. And so they had moved
• 59:48
  Speaker 4: the line west of Wichita, and so Dodge City became
• 59:51
  Speaker 4: the headquarters and it was just perfect timing. You know,
• 59:53
  Speaker 4: he needed a job. But as far as Tombstone, for instance,
• 59:57
  Speaker 4: he had resigned his post in Dodge City. He'd heard
• 59:59
  Speaker 4: about the strikes in Tombstone and he was going to
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 4: go there to make money. In fact, he he said
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 4: that he bought a concord coach, a stage coach, and
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 4: he thought they we might need a stage line, and
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: so his idea was, I'm going to take this coach.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 4: When he got there, there are already two stage lines operating.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 4: But he went to Tombstone to make money and actually
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 4: to put down roots. I mean he builds a house
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 4: for his wife at the time, I mean he buys
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 4: mining claims. He's first a deputy sheriff there in the county,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 4: and then uh, you know he's wanting to run for
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 4: this that when they when they create coaches county, Uh,
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 4: he wants to run for the county sheriff. He really
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 4: is looking to advance, uh, to better himself, I mean,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 4: to really settle down. You know, he's like thirty three
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 4: or no, he's like thirty or well, I can't remember
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 4: thirty three. I think at that time, and uh, there's
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 4: opportunity here. And he got there right at the berth.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 4: I mean Tombstone was just starting to boom, and so
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 4: he did have you know, he did have a real
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 4: opportunity to make a difference, to be someone. The problem
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 4: was the cowboys and all the outlawry and the wrestling
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 4: that was going on, and you know when a stage
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 4: was robbed, well he was on the posse, you know,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 4: when somebody was killed or you know they needed somebody.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 4: You know, White Earth was the one that was, you know,
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 4: helping out or you know, representing the law, or his
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 4: brother needed help. He was helping his brother because his
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 4: brother was a deputy us Marshall and became chief of
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 4: police in Tombstone. But he was really looking to change
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 4: and to make himself better. And even the Earth women,
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 4: you know, several of them had been prostitutes as well.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 4: But one of the things about in the Old West,
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 4: if someone said, you know, why could say this is
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 4: my wife, you didn't question him. They just called her
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 4: missus irp. I mean there was no this stuff didn't
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 4: follow you. So they really had hopes for a new
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 4: beginning in Tombstone.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 5: Were his brothers like was it always like a family
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 5: business or did they not join him until Tombstone.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 4: It wasn't really a family business. But what it was
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 4: was these brothers. I mean, they were a tight knit
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 4: brood and they always tended to come back together. And
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 4: you know, for instance, Jim RP was in Tombstone, but
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 4: he wasn't involved with White. He was, you know, a
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 4: barkeep there at one of the saloons. Virgil RP. He
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 4: didn't invest in the gambling concession that Whitett had at
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 4: the Oriental. You know, he was the deputy us Marshall
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 4: and eventually chief of police. So they liked being together,
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 4: but they weren't really in business together. Now I think
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 4: that they might have shared some mining claims that they
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 4: speculated in, but over and over again they they tend
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 4: to stay together as a family. And you know, Morgan
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 4: comes down from Montana when he learns that Wyatt and
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 4: the other brothers are in Tombstone and joins him there
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 4: and he gets it. He takes White's job as a
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 4: sitting shotgun on a stage coach. After Whyatt becomes the
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 4: deputy sheriff or whatever. So they just, you know, they
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 4: they navigate together because they're family you know.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: The thing that in reading about this era and different
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: figures that that I've written about, and the Randalls researched
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: about what you're talking about, you get these guys that
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: are with these incredible drifters. Like when we talk about
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: the mountain man era nowadays, someone might think of like
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: a mountain man, you know, like a hermit lives by
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: himself up in a cabin. Oh, he's a true mountain man.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: You know, this is up in his cabin, never talks
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: to anybody.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 4: I think that's a History Channel show, isn't it.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah? So, but like the mountain men, like the actual
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: mountain men would have been the most widely like the
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: most some of the most widely traveled people in the country,
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, criss crossing the country, right, And you think
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: this is a time when you could be a farmer
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: and spend your whole life in a twenty mount radius
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: right in certain areas, like it's not easy to get around.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: These guys get around unbelievably well, Like if you look
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: at all the like how much do Irp's move would it?
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: Would that have seemed at that time? Would that have
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: seemed weird that they lived in you know, I mean,
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: you've lived in eight states, you've been to the West
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: coast and back.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 4: No, I don't think so, because in all these boom towns,
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 4: people are coming from someplace else. Yeah, I mean they're
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 4: all I mean, especially if it's now. A mining boomtown
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 4: is different than a cattle boom town. So you know,
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 4: when when gold or silver, Tombstone is a silver place,
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 4: you know, people are coming all over to think they're
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 4: going to make their riches. And you know, what's what's
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 4: odd is that there was one newspaper account where a
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 4: guy's write in a letter from Tombstone and he says
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 4: most of the and like at one point there was
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 4: like twenty men arriving a day early on, and he says,
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 4: most of the people that arrive here are arriving broke.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 4: And he said, that's not really a good idea to
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 4: come here, because there's not that many jobs. As far
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 4: as you know, you could if if you're a miner,
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 4: you could get like working mine, or you get like
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 4: four dollars a day or something like that. But I mean,
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 4: it wasn't that there were just all kinds of jobs
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 4: ready to take these people. So you've got a lot
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 4: of people that are wandering around, they don't have a job,
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 4: they don't have the money. And then plus everything is
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 4: super expensive there. It's like double what you can find elsewhere.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 4: I mean, like a sack of flour and Tombstone with
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 4: six dollars, you could get it in Kansas for less
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 4: than three dollars, you know, or a bushel or whatever.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 4: So yeah, so it's so the people are coming from
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 4: all over, you know, for this, and all the talk
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 4: is about mining. One of the funny stories I came
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 4: across was, you know, there are always people always talk
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 4: about these different claims. And anyway, in eighteen eighty was
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 4: an election year and it was Garfield and I can't
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 4: remember who he's running against, but somebody mentioned Garfield and
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 4: they said, oh, where's that claim and how much does
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 4: it pay? You know, they thought it was a mining
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 4: claim or whatever. And then another thing that it's just
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 4: really horrible. Actually, the diary is George Parson. We have
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 4: his diary which is so great. But he mentions that
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 4: there was a lightning strike at the lumberyard in Tombstone
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 4: and it killed a man. And he says, you know,
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 4: some of the people are talking about maybe it's struck
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 4: there because there was a large load of metal in
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 4: that spot and kid, Yeah, they were talking about the
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 4: guy that was killing them all. It's like, I wonder, yeah,
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 4: if there's some silver there. It's like, oh, yeah, who
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 4: was that guy that was good? They didn't even care
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 4: about him.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: So yeah, uh, walk us through, walkers through Doc Holliday,
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: Like people kind of carry it in their head that
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: these guys are that these guys are our buddies became
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: buddies but totally different upbringings.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah. Uh, Doc had a little more advanced
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 4: education than than why it did. And you can tell that,
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 4: you know, if you look at the few letters that
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 4: we have a Wyatt. He wasn't the best speller or calligrapher,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 4: but I mean he had an education. We have no
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 4: letters actually from Doc, and we know that he was
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 4: a big letter writer. He had a cousin that he
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 4: was some people think he had an affair with We're
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 4: not really sure, but he wrote her constantly, and I
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 4: guess she burned all her letters after Yeah, she definitely
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 4: had Yeah.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 7: There you go.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, why did she have burned letters?
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 4: She didn't want anybody to see. I mean, you know,
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 4: she'd burned all of them, So which is I mean,
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 4: we would have had so much information. But according to
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 4: there's a family story that they saw these letters and
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 4: they said Doc was talking about his experiences in the
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 4: West and talking about what he was doing and what
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 4: he was seeing, and we would have had so much
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 4: more information. But to get back to your question.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: You know, was a doc.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 4: He was a doc. He was a dentist. He actually
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 4: went to a dental The most prestigious dental school in
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 4: the country at that time was in Philadelphia, the Philadelphia
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 4: Dental School, and he got a degree. He went there
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 4: in eighteen seventy. He got his dental degree. One of
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 4: the few photographs we have of him was taken in Philadelphia,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 4: and we think it was like a graduation photo or whatever,
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 4: and it has his to get you're on the back
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 4: and it says, you know, J. H. Holliday, d d
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 4: D or whatever. But anyway, so he also comes down
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 4: with tuberculosis. His mother had tuberculosis, and their speculation that, well,
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 4: you know, he probably got it from her. In the
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 4: nineteenth century, people didn't know was contagious. So you know
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 4: today if somebody, oh, I got TV and you're coughing
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 4: over the places.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: That's what I got right now.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 4: I don't know if you're taking some fit of silling. Yeah,
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 4: but anyway, yeah you would. I mean people didn't know
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 4: that because they call it consumption y, yes, exactly. Yeah.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 4: Or they called him a lunger. What is it in
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 4: the movie Tombstone and yeah, Johnny Ringo calls him a
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 4: lunger or whatever. So anyway, there's a couple of theories
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 4: as to why he goes out west, and one of
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 4: them is is that they encourage him to go west
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 4: because of his health, you know, to go out to
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 4: a different climate. It's odd because he goes to Texas,
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 4: which is Dallas, which is not that much different from
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 4: where he is as far as humidity and all that stuff.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: But that comes up though, Yes, that comes up. Like
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: the historian Francis Parkman, who wrote sort of like at
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: the time, a definitive History of the French and Indian War.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: He gets advised by his doctor, you need to go
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: out west for your health. So he goes out and
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: starts hanging out in the Dakotas, probably goes to Crazy
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: probably is in the same camp in the Guala Su camp.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: Probably in the same camp with Crazy Horse from crazy horses,
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: like thirteen years old and he's out there on his
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: like doctor's recommendation.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was called the Prairie cure. Yeah they believed. Yeah, now, yeah,
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 4: it was called the Prairie cure.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: And they see reference to it so much.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 6: You've got to get away from the miasmas.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the bad air, the.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 4: Well And there's some amazing survival stories of a Josiah
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 4: Gregg who wrote a book called Commerce of the Prairies.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 4: He was advised to go out west. This is in
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 4: the eighteen thirties and along the Santa Fe Trail. He
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 4: started his journey as an invalid, he could not walk.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 4: With in a few weeks, he's up and walking, he's
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 4: eating buffalo meat, and he's like, fully he fully recovered.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 4: What was his affliction, We don't know. I mean, we
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 4: don't know, but he was. He was so bad off
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 4: that he couldn't even walk.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, I wonder if he just had celiacs. Well
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: do you know what I'm saying. No, Well, think it through.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: He's got he's and also now he's out there eating
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: nothing but meat. No, you didn't believe in It's totally
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: I believe in that. I don't believe in gluten in tolerance.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 4: Okay, but what what.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: I believe in it as a partisan disease. It's a
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: political disease.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 4: What what history?
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: Totally joking?
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 4: What some history? What's some historians think to it was refuted.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: I used to feel just I said something in sandiary,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: I got to clean it up. I used to feel
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: that it was a just with all due respect to
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: everyone else. No, I'm a believing. I came up with
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: this theory based on just nothing, that gluten intolerance was
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: a left wing affliction.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: I was like, why how could there be? So I
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: questioned this legitimacy, like how could there be a health
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: problem that seems that mostly strike people of a politically
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: left persuasion. But then my buddy Spencer, our colleague, came
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: to me with a quiz and it's like it's like
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: breaks down different belief systems into like right leaning, left
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: leaning ghost He's like ghosts and I'm like, definitely left wing.
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: He's like no, no, if your right wing, you're more
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: inclined to believe. So anyways, once he walked me through,
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: they didn't do the gluten intolerance, but like, the one
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: thing you can say is right wing people like a
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: rare steak more than left wing people, but you can't
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: say that they get more gluten intolerance. I don't even
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: know where you sit politically. Well, you don't need to
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: tell me, but I just wanted to clear that up, okay,
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: because I don't want to rehash. I don't want to opens.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 4: I'm glad you did a statistical study that.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: Well, that's the problems I did. Oh but my friend
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: did what caused you to rethink? And you challenge a
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: lot of my assumptions, and then my theory fell apart,
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: as many theories do. That's all the Prairie cure. Yes,
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: so we don't know what Josiah greg No, we don't
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: what is affliction. But but I believe it was CELIAX.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 4: Okay, all right, Yeah, well they could very well be.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 4: I mean I have I can't say either way, but
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 4: a lot of historians think that that people that were
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 4: ill that went west may not really have had tuberculosis
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 4: to begin with. It might have been you know, something else.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 4: And also turriculosis can go into remission as well. So
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 4: so but but but you're right though, I mean, doctors
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 4: were constantly referring, you know, go west or whatever, and.
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: So in in in like medical hindsight, is it that
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: that wasn't like like that wasn't a way to cure that,
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: that wasn't actually helpful if you had TV.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 4: I well, it might have been helpful just because you're
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 4: getting away from this, I mean, the West is arid,
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 4: so you have dry air. You're getting away from this
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 4: humid You're getting away from all the cold smoke, and
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 4: that certainly isn't going to make your TV any better.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 4: So I think it was helpful. And and you had
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 4: all kinds of sanitariums popping up in the late nineteenth
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 4: century early twentieth century. Colorado Springs was a huge place
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 4: for sanitariums, and they had little huts and you're supposed
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 4: to get out in the sun, which is helpful, you know,
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 4: getting sun lights on where Oh it's it's a huge
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 4: complex for treating patients with tuberculosis, with like dozens and
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 4: dozens of hundreds of individual huts. Yeah, and you would
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 4: go I would.
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: Have thought it meant like an insane asylum, a sanitarium.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, sanitarium. Yeah, do you know this random? Mm hm.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: They covered that when the doctorate I mean glen Wood Spring.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 6: I believe Hot Springs used to be a sanitarium.
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 5: Always springs, They're always hot springs.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 8: Yea.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: I know this because I would have raised my hand
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: like in trivia. I would have been like.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 5: But what that is was was Doc Holliday already like
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 5: before he left the East to go west? Was he
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 5: already like a ne'er do well gambler and drinker and
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 5: all that?
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 4: Well, there's some some authors have written that he had
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 4: kind of learned to play cards while he was in
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 4: Georgia before going west. But here's the other story that's
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 4: more unseemly about Doc Holliday that that counters the tuberculosis story.
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 4: There was this fishing hole along.
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: The river where this is a euphemism.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 4: No, no, it's a real no, I'm sorry. It was
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 4: a swimming hole. Sorry, a swimming hole. And uh anyway,
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 4: it was enjoyed by both black swimmers and white swimmers.
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 4: I've heard, yes and so so. The white swimmers, including
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 4: Doc Holiday, did not want the black swimmers in their
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 4: swimming hole, and they threatened them and says, you're going
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 4: to have to go someplace else. Well, the black young
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 4: men said, we're not going someplace else. You can go
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 4: someplace else. Well, a few days later, Doc Holliday shows
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 4: up with a double barrel shotgun and he yells at
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 4: them all to get out, and then as they're clamoring
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 4: out of the fishing of the swimming hole, he unloads
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 4: both barrels and apparently kills two of these young men.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah Holiday, Yes, and the story yeah, that's right. Yeah,
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 4: did his quate? So?
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 7: Uh?
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 4: The story is is that the family, I mean, apparently
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 4: it wasn't a horrible, you know thing to kill black
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 4: men in Georgia right after the Civil War, but they suggested, oh,
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 4: maybe you need to leave for a while and until
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 4: things settle down or whatever. The family does have stories
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 4: of this incident, but they say Doc Holliday fired over
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 4: the heads of the swimmers. I can tell you that
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 4: there are no legal documents known or newspaper reports that
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 4: mentioned this episode.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: Or isn't Does it seem like a thing that would
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: have been reported on.
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 4: It seems like if two men were killed, whether black
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 4: or white, I think it would have been reported. But
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 4: it's a very strong story in the lore. And when
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 4: Doc Holliday died in Glenwood Springs, his obituary in a
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 4: Montana paper mentions that episode says he had killed a
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 4: couple of black men or one black man in Georgia.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 4: So that story, you know how I said you could
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 4: escape your past. That story stuck around. People knew that story,
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 4: got it. I would just love to I mean, it
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 4: would make me feel better if I found an actual
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 4: document from the time or a newspaper report saying that
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 4: these men had been killed or whatever. But it's also believable.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 4: I mean, I can't say it didn't happen. It's believable.
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: So when he left, when he leaves Georgia, and whether
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: it's it's because he's got consumption, whether it because he's
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: worried about getting arrested. Yeah, he leaves dentistry.
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 4: No, no, he sets up a uh he has a
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 4: partner in Dallas, Texas and they have a dental He
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 4: has a partner. His name is Cigar, Yes, Segar. And
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 4: this is this is the cool thing. I mean, there's
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 4: a there's a local fair, the Texas Industrial Association. They
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 4: get a prize for like the best false teeth. Oh
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 4: you know, so Doc Holliday is an award winning dentist.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 4: He not only has a dental degree, but now he's
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 4: an award winning dentist, and he's in his early twenties,
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 4: you know, but Dallas is also where he takes a
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 4: different path. He diverges. He later in talking to a
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 4: newspaper reporter, he said, yeah, I was part of the
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 4: Methodist Church. He was even part of this uh you
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 4: know group of uh you wouldn't call it aaa, but
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 4: it was, you know, a temperance organization. And uh. But
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 4: then he says, uh that I swayed you know, uh
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 4: something from rectitude or whatever. And so yeah, he started gambling.
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 4: Bat Masterson says, you know, there was gambling was rampant
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 4: in Dallas, and he says that was the one way
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 4: to sure make money in Dalla because of all the
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 4: places where you could gamble. We know that Doc was
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 4: arrested there for gambling in Dallas, and apparently you know
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 4: Doc's life as a gambler.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: Well.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 4: In fact, bat Master says the only way to get
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 4: an appointment was to sit across from at a poker table.
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 4: You know. So I guess his partner got fed up
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 4: and they separated. And only a few more times do
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 4: we know that Doc Holiday does practice dentistry, or at
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 4: least appear to, you know, he apparently set out in Denton, Texas.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 4: He set out a sign, you know, dentistry, and in
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 4: Dodge City when he arrives there, he puts an ad
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 4: in the paper, and so we have those newspapers. Yeah
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 4: it says, you know, John h Holiday dentist. But after
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 4: that we have no record that he actually practiced as
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 4: a dentist. For instance, he was in Pressate, Arizona for
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 4: a while. He was gambling. He was definitely not practicing dentistry.
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 4: In Tombstone, he was a full time gambler. But the
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 4: funny thing is in the eighteen eighty census for Arizona,
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 4: his occupations linisted his dentist, but he wasn't doing I mean,
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 4: you know, it's kind of like this is the other
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 4: weird thing the Irt brothers. In the same census, they're
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 4: listed as farmers. They weren't farming. White hated farming. But
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 4: you know, I guess you tell the census taker what's
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 4: your occupation? Oh I'm farmer. Yeah I don't. But anyway,
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 4: I just thought that that census taker had to chuckle
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 4: when Doc said, yeah, put me down his dentists because
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 4: he was not doing dentistry. In Prescott Arizona.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: God if he if he if a guy like Doc
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: Halladay filled out like his tax forms at the end
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: of a year a gambling like he's he's showing like
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: a gain. He yeah, I mean, like when when you
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: read all these guys like he was a gambler, professional gambler,
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: what's that look like? Economically? There's no house, right, Oh no,
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: you're just you're playing at a table, just like anybody.
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: Well, is it there's guys that are legitimately supporting themselves,
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: or is it that you're doing other nefarious stuff but
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: you're mostly spending your time playing cards, but your income
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: is from well, prostitution or whatever the hell you got.
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 4: Well, sometimes you're actually just being paid as a dealer
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 4: in a in a gambling establishment, and you're not necessarily
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 4: taking part of the women's or winnings or you know,
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 4: you get a concession. You can run this Pharaoh table
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 4: and you'll give so much to the guy that owns
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 4: the place, and you keep so much.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: God, But the thing is, it's not like that you
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 1: need to win more than you lose. There's other ways
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 1: a turn a problem. There's other ways a turn a
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: living as a gambling.
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 4: Yes, but I mean, Doc his income had to be
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 4: so erratic. You know, he definitely had highs and lows,
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 4: and the last few years were definitely lows. I mean,
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 4: he's bouncing around from one place to the other and
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 4: has no money. This incident, well, here's an example in Leadville.
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 4: He borrowed like five dollars from this guy and he
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 4: wasn't paying it back and a guy kept harassing him.
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 4: You know, I want, it's just five dollars, you know,
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 4: it's not the end of the world or whatever. But
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 4: Doc doesn't have the money, and you know, he ends
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 4: up pawning a bunch of stuff. When he dies in
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 4: Glenwood Springs, he has hardly anything. He had a few
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 4: possessions that were sent back to his family. There were
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 4: no guns that were sent back, so he probably sold
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 4: those long before. There was a stickpin, a gold stick
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 4: pin that had a diamond in it. The diamond was gone,
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 4: so he probably locked the hat and sold it. I mean,
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 4: why the hell did he? I mean, it was sad.
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: I was like, why did he get like, why did
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: he get out of why not this be a dentist?
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 4: Well, I guess he didn't like it. I mean, you know,
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 4: I mean gambling. He was a gambling addict. He was
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 4: addicted to it. I mean he had to gamble drunk too.
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 4: He was often drunk, yes, And you know, if you
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 4: want to be sympathetic to Doc, you can say he
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 4: was self medicating. I mean, he had tuberculosis, so there's laudanum.
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 4: Any kind of tonic that you took had all kinds
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 4: of alcohol in it. So but the problem with the
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 4: drinking was that, you know, he was what they would
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 4: call him mean drunk. You know, he was not a
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 4: good person, and and he was quick to get angry
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 4: and get into fights. And his wife said, you know,
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 4: Doc was his own worst enemy, and that was one
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 4: of the things that kind of this bond that they had,
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 4: you know whyet kind of and the brothers kind of
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 4: took care of Doc when he got out of control.
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 4: There's an account when they were in Gunnison, Colorado, and
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 4: the guy remembered all of them and he said, oh yeah,
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 4: when when Doc started to get out of control, they
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 4: kind of took him aside and took him away. I
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 4: mean they kind of looked after him. And once they
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 4: separated and he didn't have that that you know, that
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 4: family really to you know his other brothers. They were
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 4: they were kind of like siblings in a way. Doc
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 4: was three years younger than Wyatt. But but uh, anyway,
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 4: it was really for Doc at the end. It was
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 4: very sad. But but people that wrote about him said
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 4: he was always a meticulous dresser and he didn't dress
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 4: over the top or what.
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: But he's just.
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 4: Particulous even in Tombstone. Big Nose Kate says, when he
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 4: went out that day that ended up in the OK Corral,
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 4: it's like, you know, yeah, he'll be able to see
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 4: me once I'm dressed or whatever. And so he got
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 4: all dress. He had a cane, he had an overcoat
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 4: and it was a very sharp you know, it looked
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 4: took real pride in his appearance.
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 1: If you were hanging out with Big Nose Kate, would
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: you say, excuse me, Big Nose Kate.
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 4: I don't think she liked that at all. Yeah. Well,
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 4: and uh that's a name. Here's the this is what's
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 4: so interesting That name comes from one person whiter said.
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: She was always a bully too.
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Big Nose Kate and big he coined the term.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 4: Well he's the only reference that we have. We don't
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 4: see big Nose Kate in contemporary newspapers. But his account
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 4: that he left he calls her big Nose Kate, and
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 4: she left her own account. She never refers, you know,
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 4: to that worse. Now, here's here's an interesting theory behind
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 4: that name though. A buddy of mine, Ron.
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 1: Hanson, she's Hungarian, right, yes she is.
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, my buddy mine, Ron Hanson, who wrote the Assassination
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 4: of Jesse j Dude.
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: That is an unbelievable Look.
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 4: It's a great parties with him.
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he's a friend of mine and he wrote a
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 4: blurb but it's on the back of that book. But anyway,
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 4: Ron uh had a great theory and I included it
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 4: in my book. He says, you know, I always wondered
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 4: about that name, and I think I know where it
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 4: came from. He thinks that it's a corruption of the
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 4: term for brabl the Italian term bonio, because Bonyo was
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 4: a brothel. He thinks they called her Bonyo Kate and
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 4: it it got corrupted into big Nose just to kind
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 4: of irk her. That's his theory, you know.
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 1: So I mean, I don't know. I mean, you know,
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: I don't want to be rude to her, but you've
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 1: seen pictures of her.
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, but that's like that's later life. That's a
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 4: later life.
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 1: You know, it's terrible. When I was in high school,
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: we had a friend. Her name was Michelle. She had
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: a hook nose. Everybody called her hook. She called herself hook,
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 1: and her boyfriend called her hook. Oh was the car nowadays?
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 4: I'm sure it's not that she.
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: Wouldn't say, oh wow, she's tell her hook called.
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 4: Well, you know, she was a perpetual I say in
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 4: the book, a perpetual IRB hater. And that tells me
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 4: how oh yeah, she hated it, But it tells me
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 4: how close that bond was between White and Doc because
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 4: she was so jealous of that relationship and she just
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 4: hated She seethed against why she thought White was the
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 4: one that ended caused all their problems. Beteaen her and Doc.
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 4: You know, White just said, well they were always a
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 4: quarrelsome couple. That was all he had to say about it.
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: But she a big booze er.
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 3: Two.
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 4: No, I don't think so. I mean, I haven't seen
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 4: any references to her being a drinker. But and she
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 4: in her own account, she claimed that, oh, you know,
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 4: Doc had a whiskey bottle with him, but he never
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 4: really drank. Well, I mean, everybody else says he drank,
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 4: you know, all the time, and he was often drunk.
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 4: She was very kind in her recollections of Doc, but no,
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 4: she hated the IRBs. She thought that was the end
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 4: of their relationship. She thoughts at how everything went wrong
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 4: and they turned Doc wrong, and and she actually, I
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 4: mean she was so mad at Doc and they would
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 4: often have these big, horrible fights. And she went to
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 4: the sheriff Johnny Been, and implicated Doc in the Benson
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 4: stage robbery. She said, oh, yeah, boyfriend, Yeah, her boyfriend.
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 4: And then she later said this was my way of
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 4: getting him away from the herbs. Well, she could have
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 4: he could have been hung, you know, because there was
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 4: a guy, couple of guys, you know, was a guy killed, No,
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 4: two people killed in that robbery. So she was that
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 4: angry with him that she implicated him. And then of course,
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 4: the the prosecuting attorney once he heard the story and
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 4: there was no evidence, he said, he just asked the
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 4: judge dismissed the case. He said, there's no evidence whatsoever
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 4: that what she's saying is true. There's nothing to back
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 4: that up. But no she did. She turned her lover
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 4: in and tried to get him arrested. Well, he did
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 4: get arrested, but it didn't go to trial.
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: All right. Set up? How set up? How it comes
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 1: that like rather than like the way you talk about
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 1: these guys, rather being like there's a like super slick,
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: you know, virtuous right, white hatted Western heroes. It's there
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: kind of just like drifters make and do well in
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 1: a drinking.
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, in a way, I think I think Wyatt is
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 4: a little more than that. You know, the fact that
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 4: Wyatt builds a house in Tombstone tells me something that
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 4: he's aspiring to more. Doc Holliday, throughout his life, never
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 4: bought a house. He was always rooming somewhere. In fact,
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 4: in Tombstone he was at a boarding house, the Fly
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 4: boarding House, which is right next to where Flies f
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 4: l y. Their last name was fly cs. Fly was
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 4: a famous photographer and he had a photo studio behind
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 4: the boarding house. And anyway, so Doc had had had
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 4: a room there, and that's where Kate stayed when she
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 4: would come to visit him. You know, they'd have these
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 4: fights and they would separate, and then Kate said that
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 4: she would get a letter from Doc could say, hey,
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 4: would you come be it like to see you again?
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 4: She came back at like three different times she came
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 4: back to see him. There was this off and on
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 4: again relationship, but she couldn't stand the herbs. So I
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 4: think that she couldn't stand to be in Tombstone for
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 4: very long.
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 5: How did Doc Holliday and Wider? Like, how did it
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 5: all start? Was Doc Hall just gambling out his establishment
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 5: at Wider's establishment and they got to know each other
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 5: that way or like?
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 4: So that's a great question. I'm glad you asked it.
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 4: And that's that's one of the reasons for the book
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 4: was that, you know, when we see the movies, they
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 4: tell us that they're friends, but nobody knows how they became.
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 4: They don't even cover that. It's like it's just accepted.
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 4: So what happened was is that Doc and White had
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 4: first met about eighteen seventy seven in Fort Griffin, Texas.
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 4: And why it was down there he was being employed
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 4: by the Action Sepeak and Santa Fe Railroad to track
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 4: down a couple of these men had been robbing the
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 4: railroad camps and he was employed to track them down.
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 4: And when he got to Fort Griffin, the owner of
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 4: this saloon gambling establishment. Whitet asked him. He says, hey,
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 4: you know, I'm looking for these guys. And he says, well,
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 4: if anybody would know, it'd be Doc Holliday, do you
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 4: know him? And White didn't know him, and so they
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 4: introduced each other and Wyatt talked about this a lot.
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 4: He says, show at the time, I wasn't looking for
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 4: a friend. I was looking for information about, you know,
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 4: where these guys might be. And Doc said, well, you know,
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 4: let me ask around and I'll see what I can do.
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 4: And I guess Doc going a few leads that didn't
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 4: pan out. But but Doc had also pumped Wyatt about
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 4: Dodge City, you know, because Doc was kind of looking for,
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 4: you know, someplace else where it might be a good
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 4: place to land. And he was with Big Nose Kde
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 4: at that time. And so Doc ends up in Dodge City.
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 4: And you remember I said he placed that ad for
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 4: a dentist's office. But one night, and this was happening
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 4: almost constantly, you know, cowboys are being rowdy, wanting to
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 4: shoot up the town. There was a big gang of
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 4: cowboys starting to shoot off their guns and then they
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 4: see Wyatt arp on the street near the long A
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 4: Saloon by himself, and they quickly surround him, and they
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 4: got their guns and they're they're said, we're gonna get
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 4: you now, you know what. They just didn't like him,
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 4: you know, he was the law and they were drunk,
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 4: you know, and so we're gonna, we're gonna get you.
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 4: Wyatt dearly, I mean, he thought he was going to
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 4: be killed. He thought that was going to be it. Well,
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 4: inside the Long Branch they had glass windows and Doc
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 4: Holiday's backs. Yeah, yeah, I don't know, I doubt it.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 4: But anyway, he sees through the window what's going on,
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 4: and the guy at the dealer, he says, do you
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 4: have a gun? And the guy says yeah. So Doc
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 4: gets it. Doc has his own gun. He comes out
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 4: the door with both guns.
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 1: His gun and a barbed gun, kid's.
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 4: Gun and a borrowed gun. He said, hold up your hands,
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 4: and of course the cowboys are all startled, and they do,
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 4: and then Wyatt goes for his guns and they march
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 4: him off to jail and lock them up. So Wyatt
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 4: set this more than once, and he said, from that
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 4: day forward, I was Doc Holliday's friend, you know, with
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 4: the friends. I mean, he's he considered his life saved
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 4: and he thought he was dead it. I mean, he
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 4: really thought his life was in danger. And he says
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 4: we were friends. And so no matter of the crazy stuff,
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 4: Doc did, you know, White stuck with him and and
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 4: the cowboys and Tombstone. They even tried to use Doc
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 4: against him by by putting these you know, claiming he
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 4: was a stage robber and he was a bad character.
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 4: Because everybody in town knew they were friends. So by association,
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 4: if they make Doc look bad, well how we're not
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 4: gonna elect White Herb. He's a friend of this crazy,
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 4: you know thief, you know, Doc Holiday. But that really
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 4: says something to me about White Herb. You know that
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 4: that he you know, had that bond. It's like, you
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 4: save my life. We're friends, you know, doesn't care what
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 4: you do, what happens, We're friends. And that's the way
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 4: it was until you know, they separate eventually after the
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 4: Vendetta ride. Uh and Doc they they do see each
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 4: other one last time in Denver and I actually found
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 4: the notice. Often when people checked into a hotel, the
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 4: paper would say who's staying. You know, you could go
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 4: through a list and why her Trinidad is staying at
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 4: the hotel here. That was news and Doc Holliday read
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 4: that and he went down to meet him at the hotel.
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 4: And Josephine R. White's last wife wrote an account and
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 4: she said that, uh, they were just amazed. I mean
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 4: Doc was just looked horrible. He was all thin, like
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 4: an old man. But you know whyatt just had this
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 4: not I don't think like that. But anyway, I know
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 4: it's Steve your friend or yeah, but uh, anyway, they
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 4: embrace and they go us to a table to the side,
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 4: and they're chatting and uh, and then they stand up
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 4: later a few minutes later, however long it took, and
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 4: they shake hands and she actually tells what White said,
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 4: and and uh, you know, uh Doc said something like
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 4: who would have imagined you know that that you know
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 4: that that I would be the first to go or
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 4: whatever between us and and uh, anyway, they.
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: He's prophesizing his death, yes.
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 4: He is, and and uh, white Earth comes back to
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 4: the table and there's tears in his eyes.
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 1: Huh.
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 4: I mean there is no other account of white Earth crying.
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 4: I guarantee you you're ever going to see that. But
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 4: he's in tears, you know, after his friend parts and
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 4: he just knows he's not gonna ever see him again.
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 1: Huh. Yeah, explain the mash up that occurs around the okay,
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 1: corall like who the I've read accounts of this, I
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 1: still cannot explain or understand who's mad at who? Is
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: there an efficient way of explaining.
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 4: Well, I'll try to make it byzantine. A lot of
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 4: it has like.
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 1: Like he's mad about this and mad about that and
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 1: was hired by him. It's not like like.
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 4: Well, there's lots of under there's lots of undercurrents. I mean,
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 4: the Irk Brothers, they were on the side of law
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 4: and order and uh whyaet earp had made this deal. Uh,
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 4: and it was not it was not a good idea,
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 4: you know, it was a form of gambling essentially. But uh,
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 4: the stage had been robbed, the Benson stage had been robbed,
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 4: and two people have been killed, the driver and a passenger.
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 4: So we're now this is the obskirts of Tombstone. Yes,
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 4: so the stage coach was robbed and everything, and.
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 1: This is a way, this is like a scheduled piece
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 1: of transportation into Tombstone.
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 4: Well, going out of Tombstone and it's robbed of what Well,
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 4: it wasn't robbed because it went it went bad. So, uh,
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 4: the guy that was the you know, the guy riding
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 4: shotgun you know when the when the when the robbers
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 4: say hold, uh, he goes I hold for nobody and
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 4: they start blasting away and the drivers killed instantly. He
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 4: falls down between the lines. So we got a runaway coach.
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 4: They shoot at the coach as that's going away. They
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 4: kill a passenger on top, you know. A mile or
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 4: two or several miles later, they finally get this, you
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 4: know this the coach stopped, so they know who the
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 4: robbers were. They were three men and there was a
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 4: big hunt for him, Doc hollow They started initially, but
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 4: Wyatt's involved, ViRGE Warps Involvedohn beings involved, and they go
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 4: out for miles and days.
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: I got a quick question. Okay, this is where I
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 1: started getting confused. Oh, how in the world is it
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: Doc Holliday's business.
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 4: Cuz Doc Holliday, this is something that Virgil Orb said.
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 4: Whenever there was a posse formed, Doc Holliday was always
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 4: there to help out.
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, He's like, I'm sick, I'm half dead,
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 1: I'm drunk.
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, no, he he's needed. Well, plus his buddies
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 4: are there, you know, Well there's Wyatt, there's Morgan. He's
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 4: the same agent.
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 1: So he just gets excited when there's a posse, like
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 1: your buddy drew a tag, you know.
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 4: Maybe, well, I think he also thought it was the
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 4: right thing to do and they need to help, you know.
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: So he's like, he's one of the guys that likes
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 1: to be in the posse.
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 4: Yes, exactly so, but he wasn't on that posse for
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 4: very long. But regardless, so they know who the robbers
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 4: are because they catch one of them. And now I
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 4: think I mentioned that Wyatt he is eager to become
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 4: the Coachese County sheriff. He thinks, if I catch these robbers,
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 4: I you know, that's gonna had a lot of credence
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 4: to me and I'm going to be a hero. So
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 4: he approaches this is the bad idea. He approaches one
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 4: of the cowboys, Ike Clanton, who's in cohoots with all
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 4: that he knows everybody he's in codes with him. He's
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 4: considered a leader of the cowboys actually, and he says
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 4: a proposition. He says, you know, wells Fargo is offering
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 4: five thousand dollars for the capture of these guys. If
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 4: you help me capture them, I'll give you the five
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 4: thousand dollars. All I want is the glory. So just
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 4: lead them to some place where we can get So
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 4: Ike agrees, you know, he's he's going to turn in
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 4: you know, these people that he knows for the five
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 4: thousand dollars. Well later, uh, it gets a little complicated,
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 4: but but yes, yes, but Ike Ike fears he fears
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 4: that Wyatt didn't keep his secret because Ike said, you know,
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 4: I want to find out if you'll if it's if
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 4: that award is good dead or alive. And so White
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 4: finds out. He goes to the Wells Fargo office. They
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 4: telegraph it and yeah, it's good debt or alive. But
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 4: he doesn't tell the Wells Fargo man what's going going on.
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 4: But he reads the telegram and so he just kind
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 4: of assumes that that he's doing that Ike is doing
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 4: something with White, and he approaches. Ike is, oh, yeah,
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 4: you know you're gonna go get Scott.
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 1: I got Scott too confused. I have to understand I
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: have to trust the other people. Are you confused? Uh,
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm.
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 5: Waiting to hear Gang is like making sure he's not
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 5: screwing him over exactly.
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 1: But who sent the telegram?
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 4: Whyatt sent the telegram to the will?
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 1: Mike says, I the Ike, the inside man. Yes, he goes, hey,
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 1: is that I get five thousand bucks? Dead or alive? Yes?
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 1: And so they said, let me check. Yes, Whyatt telegrams
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 1: the bank. Yes, well what's now the bank? Wells Fargo.
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 1: They say, no problem, Dead's fine, But then what well,
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 1: because I understand, like the then well.
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 4: The Wills Fargo man sees the telegram from Wyatt, from
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 4: Wyatt and back, and so he makes the connection, oh
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 4: he and he's he sees he saw Wyatt and Ike
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 4: talking together. So he makes the connection that Ike is
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 4: working with Wyatt, and he mentions it to Ike, and
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 4: Ike starts freaking out because.
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: So he goes, oh I understand you're working Yeah yeah Wyatt.
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 4: Yes exactly. Because Ike is fearing for his death because
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 4: this happened to got men of the cowboys who got
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 4: caught or or or spilled the beans they were they disappeared,
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 4: and so Ike is terrified, and so he goes and
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 4: gets mad at Wyatt. Then he accuses Doc of telling people,
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 4: and he just goes into this rampage and he's just
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 4: angry and you guys, lie, I mean, you get you.
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 4: You weren't supposed to tell about this. And and then
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 4: he gets drunk and he starts keeps ramting and raving
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 4: all night long and he's he says, you know, and
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 4: then the next the next day, and I'm skipping over
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 4: a lot of stuff, but it's mostly Ike is the
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 4: problem here. The next day, uh, he's saying, you know, uh,
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 4: he's telling people. As soon as those brothers get up,
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna get him, you know, or I'm gonna get
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 4: Doc Holiday and interrupt you.
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 5: Like, the cowboys are Ike's gang, right, like.
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 4: A loose Yes, it's a loose amalgamation. And some people
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 4: look at Ike as a leader or one of I
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 4: just there wasn't just one leader, but it's one of
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 4: the leading men. But yeah, the cowboys are all and
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 4: you know, not all the cowboys were stage robbers. Mostly
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 4: they were just rustlers.
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 1: Are they like they're like a mafia? It's style, yeah,
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 1: get away.
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 4: I mean you know, there's you got certain ranchers that
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 4: are fencing the cattle for the rustlers. They're actually going
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 4: over the border to Mexico, which is just a day's
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 4: right away, and stealing cattle. And there's you know, there's
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 4: butchers and others that they just wink wink and they
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 4: buy the cattle. And and that's why so many people
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 4: and merchants and Tombstone tended to let things with the
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 4: cowboys go because they were making money off of them,
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 4: and the herbs were kind of a you know, monkey
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 4: wrench and this whole you know, they were they were
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 4: putting to stop those kinds of things. So anyway, I
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 4: Ike is.
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 1: On a ranch, You're doing a phenomenal job.
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 4: Oh thanks.
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 1: Anyway, like the first time in my life I've ever
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 1: understood this.
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 4: Oh well good, yeah, well, I prefer you read the book.
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 1: But no, no, I will. That's why I've never understood this.
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 4: Okay, Well, Ike's on a rampage, he's drunk, He's making
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 4: all kinds of threats. And these are on top of
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 4: threats that other cowboys had made in the past. They
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 4: just don't like the IRBs, So the McClary brothers, they
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 4: had threatened him in the past. So, uh, Doc Holiday
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 4: arrives in town. He'd been in Tucson and Ikes gets
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 4: at argument with him, and they're threatening each other.
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 1: And what's there? What are they arguing about?
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 4: Well, because Ike believes that Doc is in on it too,
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 4: that Doc has been spreading a word about this because
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 4: he's buddies with the earth, he's running with the herbs,
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 4: and he's in And Whyatt's you know, so.
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 1: These guys are like they're drunk, they're drunk, they're accusing
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 1: each other stuff.
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 4: And Whyatt had Doc come in to explain because White
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 4: tells Ike, I didn't say anything. I didn't say anything
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 4: to Doc, And when Doc gets here, he'll be able to,
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 4: you know, tell you well, Doc, you know he he
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 4: gets angry quickly anyway, and so it's just mostly just
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 4: kind of this you know, shouting match between the two
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 4: of them. But the next morning, okay, so Ike's going around.
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 1: I think that if someone had said, let's all get
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 1: together and talk this through, maybe let's let's just.
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 6: Go forward with the five thousand dollars planning, Yeah, that
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 6: we had lined out.
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 4: Well, speaking of lines from the movie toostone, this is
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 4: where it comes from. The So the night before the
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 4: okay corral, your Doc is confronting Ike, and he says
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 4: and Ike says, I'm not healed, you know, And Doc says, well,
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 4: go get healed. You know, I'll meet them either. That's
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 4: that kind of threats that are going on.
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 1: But guy, I don't have my gun.
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 4: I don't have my gun. I'm not healed, you know,
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 4: I don't have my gun. And Doc says, go get
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 4: your gun. And and so Ike spends all night up
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 4: and he's gambling and he's drinking, he's not shaving. He's
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 4: for a pretty disheveled I'm thinking. And the next morning,
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 4: you know, Virgil, people are You have to remember, people
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 4: that spend the night as gamblers, they go to bed
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 4: late and they sleep late. So all these guys that
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 4: are involved, like the IRPs, they're getting up like at
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 4: noon or what I mean, that's that's the normal day
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 4: for them. They're sleeping until noon. So people are waking
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 4: up Virgil and White and said, Mike's going around here
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 4: and he's threatened to kill you guys, and he's you
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 4: and why it's saying Okay, I'm gonna sleep a little longer.
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 4: And then they weren't too worried. It's Virgil is the
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 4: same way.
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 6: So I'm still saying that the Western trope of showing
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 6: a showdown at high noon is largely derivative of the
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, I had.
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 1: I dated a girl for a while. She was a
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 1: flight attendant and a gambling addict, very erratic sleep hours.
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 1: Got a double whammy there. Yeah.
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 4: So anyway, finally they get up and and Virgil he says, Okay,
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna go take care of Ike, and he finds
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 4: he goes, He finds.
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 1: Him, but take care of him in what way?
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 4: Well, and arrest him, you know, and take his gun
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 4: away because he's armed. You that's supposed to carry gun.
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 1: So he's like, Ike's wanding around town hungover.
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 4: Threatening people, you know, shouting, and he sneaks up behind
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 4: him and cloppers him over the head, takes his gun.
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 4: I mean it was a serious blow because he had
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 4: to go to the doctor and get abandoned.
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 1: But then they's like a comic quality dog there is,
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 1: so they take I'm not making fun of the book,
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 1: like up up until the shooting, there's like, yeah, there's
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 1: like a comic.
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, because I mean it's it's crazy. But
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 4: they take him to the court in Tombstone and uh
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 4: so Ike is there and Wyatt's in there, and uh,
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 4: you know he's gonna get fined at course, but that's
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 4: where I says, you know, he starts yelling at White,
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 4: and he says, all I want is four feet of ground,
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 4: you know, and you took my guns away, give him
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 4: all my guns and and uh there'll be a reason
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 4: for a corner's in quote. I mean, he just gets
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 4: goes on and on hands distance. All I want is
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 4: four feet of ground between us to shoot you. He
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 4: wants to have a gun fight, right, All I want
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 4: is give me four feet of ground you And.
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 1: Uh, why it didn't have to say like what does
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 1: that mean?
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 4: No, exactly, yeah, and so uh anyway, then the McClary
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 4: brothers arrived, or the McCary at one of the brothers
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 4: arrives in town. And after this incident with Ike, uh,
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 4: you know, the mccary's had also been making threats. And
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 4: why it comes up to uh to Tom mccrarury, who's outside,
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 4: and Tom McClary says something like, well, if you want
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 4: to fight, I'll fight you right now. Well, White gets
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 4: his revolver and hammers them over the head. Took the
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 4: fight right out of Tom McClary. But then when Frank
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 4: McClary gets the town. It's like, why did White hit
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 4: my brother? You know? And so so now the McClary's
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 4: who are friends with the Clantons, they're all mad at
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 4: the Herbs and they're continuing to make threats. And then
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 4: people are so this is what's amazing. So, you know,
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 4: Virgil and White and Morgan, they're kind of wandering around
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 4: the streets. There's a lot of people in the streets,
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 4: and people keep coming up to Virgil says, there's these
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 4: guys that are going to kill you, you know, they're
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 4: threatning you or whatever, and it's like he knows who
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 4: it is, but but over and over and then there's
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 4: other men that come up and say there's like this
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 4: vigilante group or minute men, and it says, hey, I
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 4: can get like, you know, so many men together if
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 4: you want help or whatever. Verre just no, no, I
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 4: don't want any help.
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 1: Like we'll get guys to help you beat up Yes,
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 1: exactly the rest of us.
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 4: Yes, And Virgil says, no, no, you know, I can
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 4: take care of it. And finally, you know, Virgil just
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 4: gets so much of this and even Johnny Bean, who's
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 4: the uh, the sheriff, the County sheriff. Uh, Virgil says, well,
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 4: can you go and disarm Humber whatever, and Johnny being
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 4: I don't really want to do that, you know, And
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 4: so finally Virgil is fed up, you know, and after
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 4: the last time, somebody says, these guys are down there
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 4: by flies boarding house, which is where Doc is staying
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 4: and which you know, that's kind of interesting. They're threatening
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 4: Doc and here they are just right right next to
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 4: where Doc lives. And so Virgil has had enough and
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 4: he says, you know, those guys are carrying guns in
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 4: town against the law. You know, that's insult to me.
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 4: It's disrespecting me in my office. That's disprected the laws.
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 4: And I'm gonna go disarm him. And so he gets Wyatt,
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 4: he gets Morgan, who are all there, and then uh,
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 4: Doc Holliday, you're not gonna leave me out, are you?
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 4: And White goes well, he says it's going to be
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 4: a hard fight, and Doc says, that's the kind I like.
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 4: And so he's deputized is paid gig? What's that now?
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 1: When Doc Holly joins a posse or Doc Holliday does this,
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 1: there's no financial.
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 4: No, usually not sometimes wells Fargo would reimburse them, you know,
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 4: kind of like a per diem or you know, if
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 4: they you know food. I mean, sometimes they abould give
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 4: them money for the time they spent going after these individuals.
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 4: And that was also another kind of sore point between
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 4: the Irt brothers and Johnny Bean Johnny Been, who was
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 4: the county sheriff who was leading that posse after the
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 4: stage robbers. We talked about he paid himself and his men,
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 4: but he didn't pay the IRPs and the earth will
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 4: what about we were riding with you whatever? And finally
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 4: Wells Fargo, I guess coughed up some money for him.
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 4: But anyway, Virgil Arth decides I'm gonna go down there.
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 4: I hear they're down here by you know, flies boarding house.
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 4: So we got Wyatt, we got Virgil, we got Morgan,
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 4: we got Doc Holliday.
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 5: And Virgil has the authority to do that because he's
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 5: a US Marshal.
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 4: Well, it's mostly because at that time he's also the
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 4: Chief of Police of Tombstone, so he's both chief of
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 4: police and a deputy US Marshall. So he's in charge
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 4: of enforcing Tombstone's laws. And he's just sick of these threats.
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 4: I mean, you know, after a while, it's like, you know,
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 4: you can keep saying I'm gonna kill you, I'm gonna
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 4: kill you, and you know, pretty soon you're you're kind
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 4: of done with that, right because the guy might kill
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 4: you. You don't know when the threat ends and when it
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 4: was I was real, But mainly they're breaking the law.
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 4: So I'm gonna disarm him. So they around the corner
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 4: and they see the you know, they see the Clantons,
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 4: and they see the Macari's up there, and they see
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 4: the horses. There's a couple of horses, and they see
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 4: Johnny Bean, and Johnny Bean has been talking to him,
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 4: and Johnny Bean keeps starts rushing towards IRPs and Holiday
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 4: and he keeps looking back over his shoulder.
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 1: He's scared, you know, and he's shot in the back.
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 4: Well not that you get shot about. He he's scared
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 4: of what's gonna happen. And he's says, Virgil, don't go
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 4: down there. They're gonna, you know, they'll you know, there's
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 4: gonna be a battle, there's gonna be a war. Don't
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 4: go down there. And Virgil says, I'm gonna disarm them,
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 4: and then Johnny Ban lies. He says, I've already disarmed him. Well,
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 4: he had not disarmed him. And really, all Johnny Bean
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 4: had to say if he wanted to prevent this, he
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 4: could have said, they're leaving town, because if you're leaving town,
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 4: you can have your guns. He doesn't say that. In fact,
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 4: you know, he asked him to leave town, but they said, oh,
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 4: we're gonna hang around a little bit longer. So anyway,
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 4: he lies to him. He's trying to get you know,
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 4: I've already disarmed him. And so this kind of breathed
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 4: a little air of relief into IRPs and Doc Holliday,
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 4: Oh okay, they put their guns away, you know.
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 1: Oh they believe them.
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, they believe them. Yeah, because but Virgil still
• 1:48:05
  Speaker 4: going down there. But he had his uh, he had
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 4: his revolver in his waistband at the front where he
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 4: could grab it easily. So he pushes it back around
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 4: or whichever side it was, and uh, he takes that
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 4: he has this cane. It was Doc Holliday's cane he
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 4: was carrying. And then he had given his shotgun to
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 4: Doc Holliday who was supposed to hide it under his
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 4: long coat, which he which he did. But they're not
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 4: pulling out their guns. And like I said, White put
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 4: his He carried his gun in a coat pocket, which
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 4: is an aside. It is a very odd all the
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 4: movies that were in gun leather, right, but not at
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 4: the Okay Corral. These I mean White had his in
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 4: a pocket. Doc Holladay had a revolver in his pocket,
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 4: and Virgil had his gun in a waistband. It wasn't
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 4: even a gun holster belt. Uh So, anyway, they're relieved, Okay,
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 4: we're still going to go down there. But they think
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 4: that there's no guns.
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 1: Do you think they think that.
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 4: They think that, yes, because that because they mentioned how
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 4: they had put their guns away. They they believed the sheriff.
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 4: You know, why would he lie to us? He says,
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 4: I've already disarmed him.
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 1: I don't want to overplay this part, but at this point,
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 1: how many of these people do you think are in
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 1: some degree intoxicated?
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 4: Well, Ike is definitely intoxicated. I don't know that Doc
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 4: Holliday was intoxicated. Some people believe that he might have been,
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 4: but from what I've read, I mean he had just
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 4: gotten up a short time before. I mean, there's no
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 4: accounts of him carousing in the bars and all that stuff.
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 4: So I don't think he was inebriated, but he might
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 4: have had a few drinks.
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, but they're like there's like
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 1: a there's a clear headed quality.
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 4: Yes, And Whider wasn't known to drink. I can't say
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 4: he was a teetotaler, but some people do. But he
• 1:49:42
  Speaker 4: had stained for the most part. Virgil hadn't been drinking.
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 4: Morgan probably hadn't been drinking. And I really don't think
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 4: either the McClary brothers, Frank or Tom had been drinking,
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 4: or Billy Clanton, who was just you know, like nineteen
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 4: years old. But I was definitely, I mean, he was
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 4: way over the top, out of control drunk. And like
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 4: I said, it was all his ranting and Arabian threats
• 1:50:03
  Speaker 4: that really brought this to a head. So they get
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 4: close and now keep in mind, this lot that they're
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 4: in near the Okay Corral is they say, from fifteen
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 4: to nineteen feet wide. It's a very constricted space. There's
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 4: actually a couple of horses there. They come down there
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 4: and the first thing they see is these guys have
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 4: their guns. They are armed, and so the first thing,
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 4: Virgil says, boys, I want your guns. Well, they immediately
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 4: reach for their guns and Virgil says, hold, you know,
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 4: I don't want that. He holds a cane up and
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 4: White Irp admitted in his testimony that he was the
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 4: first one to fire. He fires at Frank McCary. He said,
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 4: I fired first because he considered Frank to be the
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 4: best shot and the coolest under fire, so he wants
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 4: to take him out first. He hits him in the stomach,
• 1:50:46
  Speaker 4: doesn't kill him right away. So whyaet Irp actually opens
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 4: the gunfight there at the OK Corral after that.
• 1:50:53
  Speaker 1: If he hadn't shot, do you think there would have
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 1: been shots fired?
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 4: I don't know. I I I do know that whyatt
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 4: IRV thought that they were going to be shot, or
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 4: he wouldn't have done that. He felt that it was imminent.
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 4: In fact, they even talked about They kept bringing up
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 4: the word fight. You know, they talked about fight. You
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 4: know what if they fight, you know, well we'll shoot
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 4: their horses and you know all this kind of stuff.
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 4: They were kind of thinking about it. You know, White said,
• 1:51:16
  Speaker 4: you know, we were pretty sure they were going to fight.
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 4: And so when they looked like they were going for
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 4: their guns, not to just turn them over, but they
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 4: actually you know, kill. He decides I'm going to take
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 4: out and that's what he testized, that I took him
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 4: out first. And there's just that very split second. In fact,
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 4: they say that Whyatt's shot and the shot from Frank
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 4: which missed, were with a split second. I mean they
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 4: thought it was a single shot. It was very close,
• 1:51:43
  Speaker 4: and then there was this brief hesitation or pause. It
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 4: was like it was almost like this second, where is
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 4: this really happening. It's like they're kind of processing this.
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 4: We've actually started this thing, and then it just gets crazy.
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 4: Thirty seconds, thirty shots. Doc Holliday fires is sh shotgun
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 4: at Tom McClary. He's kind of hiding behind a horse.
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 4: Wyatt ends up hitting the horse. The horse, you know,
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 4: jerks away, and then Doc Holladay hits him once in
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 4: the side with the one barrel and Tom McClary starts
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 4: running away and collapses like less than a block away.
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 4: We sent like fourteen pelus rude into his chest cavity.
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 4: Doc tried to sue shoot a second time. Something malfunctioned
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 4: with his gun. He throws it down the shotgun, he
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 4: throws it down, he goes for his revolver. By this
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 4: time we have Frank McClary. He's wounded in the stomach.
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 4: He's kind of holding onto this horse getting out to
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 4: the middle of the street. The horse breaks away and
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 4: Doc Holiday is getting ready to shoot. That's when Frank says,
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 4: Doc Holliday, I have you now or whatever? And Doc
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 4: Holliday says, you're a daisy if you do, and Doc
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 4: Holiday fires. But also before dark callag get fired.
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 1: Okay, why does he yell Doc Holladay, have you now?
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 4: Because he had his gun on him. You know, Doc
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 4: Holladay's out there in the street, he has no protection.
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 1: But he decides us to advertise this.
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he says, I have you now? And then Doc
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 4: Holliday and this is in the testim he says, you're
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 4: a daisy if you have But Morgan irp. He ends
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 4: up shooting Frank and hits him in the head and
• 1:53:14
  Speaker 4: Frank just goes down immediately, and there's a big scuffle.
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 4: I mean, people are starting, you know, it's thirty seconds.
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 4: People are starting to gather and they're gathering around Frank McClary.
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 4: He's down here on the ground and Doc Hallady's starting
• 1:53:27
  Speaker 4: to yell he tried to kill me. I'm going to
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 4: kill that sob or whatever. And they're pulling him back.
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 4: Morgan Irp. He was hit across his shoulder blades. But
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 4: he's the one that, even on the ground, he raises
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 4: his revolver. He's the one that kills essentially the killing
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 4: shot of Frank McLaury. There's one other individual, Billy Clanton.
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 4: He's up against the wall of this building, on the
• 1:53:46
  Speaker 4: side of the lot and he's wounded several times. And
• 1:53:49
  Speaker 4: as he's kind of you know, sliding down against the wall,
• 1:53:53
  Speaker 4: he's trying to fit. He's fiddling with his revolver and
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 4: c s fly the gallery owner. He has a Henry rifle.
• 1:53:59
  Speaker 4: He goes up to him and he takes the revolver
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 4: away and and Billy Clinton says, can you get me
• 1:54:04
  Speaker 4: more cartridges? You know, he's saying I need more cartridges
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 4: or whatever. Yeah, and uh and they take him to
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 4: a building and and he has a gruesome death. I
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 4: mean people are coming in and get the people away,
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 4: you know, get the crowd away, and and uh, yeah,
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 4: it was not a pleasant death for him.
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 5: What about drunk Ike what was going on with him?
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 4: Oh, that's a good question. Yes, so that's what. In fact,
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 4: that's one of the big things in the gunfight.
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 4: Ike suddenly sobers up and he runs up to Wyatt
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 4: after those first shots and he says, I'm unarmed, I'm
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 4: on arm, you know. He says, well, you know, the
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 4: fight has commenced. Get out of here, the fight has commenced,
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 4: and so I takes off running. Yeah, he just runs away.
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 1: Has a chance to shoot he could have shot him.
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 4: Yes, but he says the fight has commenced and get
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 4: out of here or get armed or whatever. I can't
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 4: remember the exact phrase, but he does say the fight
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 4: has commenced, and he pushes like.
• 1:54:59
  Speaker 1: The guys have as they say that just people wouldn't say.
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 4: Now, yeah that's true. Yeah, it is so so yeah. Yeah,
• 1:55:11
  Speaker 4: it's so surreal also because I mean, you know, there's
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 4: black powder, smoke, there's flame coming out of the barrels
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 4: of these pistols, and Ike is up there with Wyatt
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 4: trying you It's like, I'm unarmed, you know, and don't
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 4: shoot me. And he's the reason they're there, He's the
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 4: reason they're there. Yes, uh, And he runs away doesn't
• 1:55:28
  Speaker 4: help his brother. His poor little brother is getting murdered.
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 1: He gets out of there unscathed.
• 1:55:33
  Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, and then I later, of course, he presses
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 4: charges against the Herbs in the holiday, and that's how
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 4: we have this this hearing. It's called the Spicer Hearing,
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 4: and it's pages and pages of testimony and it's some
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 4: of the most confusing reading. I mean it's like one
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 4: person says one thing, the other person was the other,
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 4: and their eyewitnesses nobody really agrees with one another. And
• 1:55:54
  Speaker 4: my favorite quote is from the dressmaker across the street
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 4: and she saw the whole thing, and they asked her
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 4: a specific she goes, I don't know. It was all confusion,
• 1:56:02
  Speaker 4: it was, and even for the people that were involved,
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 4: it was confusion. I mean it was just a cotal
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 4: chaos in those exactly. Yeah. But guess who's not hurt.
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 4: White Herb the one guy that doesn't get, you know,
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 4: other than Ike not a scratch on white earp and
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 4: he's right in the middle of it. Virgil Herb's wounded.
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 4: Doc Holla Day gets a flesh wound in his hip.
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 4: Morgan IRBs gets a pretty serious wound in his shoulder,
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 4: and then later Doc Holliday goes up his room and
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 4: Kate Elder's there, the Big Nose Kate, and she writes
• 1:56:33
  Speaker 4: about this and and he starts crying, and he says
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 4: it was awful, just awful.
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 1: Well, didn't you like about it?
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 4: I think the killing, I think, you know what I mean,
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 4: even though he's a even though Doc is angry, it's like,
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 4: you know, when you kill somebody, I think that's a
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 4: whole different layer, right, Yeah, you know, I think it's
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 4: I think these men.
• 1:56:55
  Speaker 1: I didn't mean that like that. I thought there's some
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 1: other because I was when I said that, What was
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 1: you crying about? Like none of his buddies got killed?
• 1:57:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah, no, no, but it's I think it's just the
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 4: fact that these men were killed and they had I
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 4: mean they had to. I mean, uh but uh, you know,
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 4: it wasn't about his wound. I mean, it was just this.
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 4: It was horrific to him that that they you know,
• 1:57:13
  Speaker 4: I mean, he sent, you know, fourteen pellets into the
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 4: chest cavity of Tom McCary and you know he's dead.
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 4: So I mean it's it was I think, very sobering.
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 4: But yeah, I I Clinton is the villain and all
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 4: that he's the one that really egged things on. And
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 4: uh yeah, and Ike Clinton gets killed himself. Oh a
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 4: few years later, and again he's running away. He was
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 4: he there were some guys looking for him for rustling cattle.
• 1:57:40
  Speaker 1: And and looking for him for something unrelated.
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, unrelated to this. And he approaches cabin. He didn't
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 4: know that these guys are in there, and as soon
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 4: as he does, he jumps on his horse and starts
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 4: to know skidadling. And this is nobody's afraid to shoot
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 4: somebody in the back if you're a long man. And
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 4: so they blaze away at him and he tumbles off
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 4: his horse and it's the one time he wasn't able
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 4: to run away.
• 1:57:59
  Speaker 1: So wow, dude, that's a great uh understand good?
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 2: Good, there's the pre and post understanding.
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 4: Ye, well, it's more clear in the book. Sure, I'm
• 1:58:14
  Speaker 4: a much better writer than I am a narrator.
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 1: That must mean you're pretty hell of a good writer.
• 1:58:18
  Speaker 4: Oh well, thanks, I hope.
• 1:58:19
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, what's your next book? You're doing?
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 4: So the next book is focusing on Jesse and Frank
• 1:58:25
  Speaker 4: James and the Civil Wars Bushwhackers and under Bloody Bill
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 4: Anderson and a trail their Civil War time, yes, and
• 1:58:31
  Speaker 4: how that and how that leads to their outlawry. And
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 4: I'm going to talk a little bit about the birth
• 1:58:35
  Speaker 4: of the American outlaw because they're really the quintessential outlaw
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 4: Jesse and Frank James, the James Younger Gang. So that
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 4: that the book is called Bushwhackers actually, so it's going
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 4: to focus on that that period. But like I say,
• 1:58:47
  Speaker 4: take us into how that led to their outlaw career.
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 1: We just spent some time reading about because this project
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 1: we're working on about the Buffalo Hide Hunters. Uh, one
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 1: of these main one of the main Buffalo high Hunters
• 1:59:03
  Speaker 1: that wrote a very good account of his time. He
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 1: was involved in those like those Borderland Civil War that
• 1:59:12
  Speaker 1: was like yeah, the paramilitary shit.
• 1:59:16
  Speaker 4: The border Ruffians like yeah.
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 1: This kind of like the plane close paramilitary aspect of
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 1: the Civil War. It's gruesome.
• 1:59:28
  Speaker 4: Well, you know, bloody Bill he earned that appellation. I
• 1:59:33
  Speaker 4: mean he had scalps tied to his horse's bridle. I
• 1:59:37
  Speaker 4: mean they scalped the soldiers that they killed, and the
• 1:59:41
  Speaker 4: hatred was so deep, yeah, I mean so deep. And
• 1:59:44
  Speaker 4: the things they were doing to one I mean one
• 1:59:46
  Speaker 4: of the things that led to Jesse joining the up
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 4: with the Quantrille or Bloody Bill was. You know, the
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 4: federal militia came to the home of his stepfather and
• 1:59:55
  Speaker 4: mother and they whipped him trying to get information where
• 1:59:59
  Speaker 4: Frank was. And then they strung up his stepfather, doctor
• 2:00:03
  Speaker 4: Reuben Samuel. Some people think that it actually caused brain damage.
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 4: They strung him up, they didn't kill him, and that
• 2:00:08
  Speaker 4: you know, it was so painful that the stepfather actually
• 2:00:10
  Speaker 4: did tell him where Frank and the other bushwhackers were.
• 2:00:13
  Speaker 4: But I mean to see that as a teenager, you know,
• 2:00:17
  Speaker 4: and then the things he experienced as a teenager in
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 4: battle and to see his friends killed, to kill people,
• 2:00:23
  Speaker 4: I mean he was indoctrinated to this violence sure at
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 4: just the right age to become a way of life.
• 2:00:31
  Speaker 1: Mm hm. Ron Hansen, yes, yeah, uh. You know what
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 1: he says in his book that I don't know if
• 2:00:42
  Speaker 1: it's true, mate, any time, if it's true or not.
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 1: I asked, I've asked a lot of people this, okay.
• 2:00:48
  Speaker 1: So uh. His book is the assassination of Jesse James
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 1: by the coward Robert Ford. So a guy Robert Ford
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 1: was unassassinated. Yes, so Robert Ford kills Jesse James and
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 1: then a guy comes to kill Robert Ford, Ed Kelly
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 1: and Robert Hanton in his book. In Hanson's book, he
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 1: says that that the guy that kills Robert Ford has
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 1: a coach gun. Not only is the coach gun Loda
• 2:01:16
  Speaker 1: was shot, but he takes a bunch of pipe filings.
• 2:01:20
  Speaker 1: He explains that he takes little sections of pipe and
• 2:01:23
  Speaker 1: takes a cold chisel and starts knocking off pipe fragments
• 2:01:28
  Speaker 1: and uses a funnel to fill the barrels full of
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 1: pipe fragments. And you hear different accounts Robert Ford gets
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 1: cut in the half near the neck or gets cut
• 2:01:40
  Speaker 1: in half near the waist? Is that true?
• 2:01:43
  Speaker 4: So the pipe filing story, I just looked at the
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 4: reports from Creed, Colorado up that we're published in the
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 4: papers in eighteen ninety two, and I've seen no mentions
• 2:01:55
  Speaker 4: of the pipe filings.
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 1: But so Royan Hansen maybe made that up.
• 2:01:58
  Speaker 4: Maybe yeah. And then but as far as the reports
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 4: do say it like severed the juggler, it was in
• 2:02:06
  Speaker 4: the neck area and just ripped it out. It said
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 4: that you know Ed Kelly. It was kind of interesting
• 2:02:14
  Speaker 4: because Ed Kelly was kind of standing at the entrance
• 2:02:17
  Speaker 4: to the bar and that he had a confederate or
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 4: somebody that came up and handed him the shotgun. He
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 4: didn't walk up with the shotgun in his hands. Someone
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 4: handed him the shotgun and then he raised it up
• 2:02:28
  Speaker 4: and he said hello, Bob, which is what Billy said.
• 2:02:30
  Speaker 4: Billy said that you know too, and Bob turns around
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 4: and he said it. Bob Ford started to go for
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 4: his vest or hip pocket, and just as he was
• 2:02:39
  Speaker 4: reaching down that he let go with the shotgun. And
• 2:02:42
  Speaker 4: it said, you know, it knocked Bob for it back
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 4: and it said he rolled over on his side and
• 2:02:47
  Speaker 4: died just like that with his hands still on his hill.
• 2:02:51
  Speaker 4: And there was apparently Ed Kelly walked up and there
• 2:02:53
  Speaker 4: was a gun a revolver there and Ed Kelly took
• 2:02:56
  Speaker 4: the gun. But Ed Kelly ends up getting killed, you know, Oklahoma. Later,
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 4: you know, he goes, he goes, he goes to prison.
• 2:03:06
  Speaker 1: But all these he just killed for, just to be
• 2:03:08
  Speaker 1: the guy that killed for I think.
• 2:03:10
  Speaker 4: So yeah, Well, some people say he might have had
• 2:03:12
  Speaker 4: some kind of connection, uh with Jesse. But here's the
• 2:03:15
  Speaker 4: cool thing. Guess who showed up at the funeral Bob
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 4: Ford and Creed Frank James. What yes, Frank James went
• 2:03:24
  Speaker 4: to pay his respects to make sure I think that
• 2:03:27
  Speaker 4: was done. I mean, and I also think just to
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 4: stand over him and say, you know, you killed my
• 2:03:33
  Speaker 4: brother and respects. Yeah, not to pay his respects, no,
• 2:03:37
  Speaker 4: but yeah, he made the trip from Missouri to Creed.
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 4: But anyway, uh, yeah, Ed Kelly is killed. Well, you know,
• 2:03:44
  Speaker 4: these people, all these people write a letter to get
• 2:03:46
  Speaker 4: him released from prison. A few years later, and he's released,
• 2:03:50
  Speaker 4: but then he's I can't remember the town in Oklahoma,
• 2:03:52
  Speaker 4: but he's kind of a belligerent character and he gets
• 2:03:55
  Speaker 4: he gets in a feud with the local policeman and
• 2:03:58
  Speaker 4: then they have a fight, you know, and they're grappling
• 2:03:59
  Speaker 4: with one another, and and he's trying to get the
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 4: policeman's gun. Ed Kelly fired all his bullets and was
• 2:04:04
  Speaker 4: out and actually hits himself in the leg. But they're
• 2:04:07
  Speaker 4: still grappling and his policeman's trying to you know, get
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 4: his gun back, and so apparently a bystander went up
• 2:04:12
  Speaker 4: and grabbed ed Kelly's arm so the policeman could get
• 2:04:15
  Speaker 4: his gun, and then he shoots and kills ed Kelly.
• 2:04:18
  Speaker 4: So that's the de mice of Kelly.
• 2:04:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so did anybody then Avenge, No, I don't think so.
• 2:04:24
  Speaker 4: I don't think so. I think that's where the story ends.
• 2:04:27
  Speaker 1: Wow, I didn't know that detail.
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know the Bob Ford it's it's a
• 2:04:31
  Speaker 4: it's a sad story. He thought he was going to
• 2:04:34
  Speaker 4: be a hero for killing Jesse James, and you know,
• 2:04:37
  Speaker 4: his brother Charlie commits suicide. And I think he commits
• 2:04:40
  Speaker 4: suicide because he's dealing with the effects of you know,
• 2:04:42
  Speaker 4: having been a part of this, and you know, they
• 2:04:44
  Speaker 4: have a stage play, they go around in their food
• 2:04:47
  Speaker 4: and you know, it's really a lot like the movie. Actually,
• 2:04:50
  Speaker 4: I think the movie's great. I think Brad Pitts the yeah,
• 2:04:53
  Speaker 4: the best Jesse James ever. But no, it's it's uh yeah,
• 2:04:57
  Speaker 4: he thought he was going to be wealthy and he
• 2:04:59
  Speaker 4: was killing this famous aut law but uh, you know
• 2:05:02
  Speaker 4: nobody thought that was cool.
• 2:05:05
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah.
• 2:05:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Well here's the thing, Steve. I mean, this was
• 2:05:09
  Speaker 4: like a political, a paid political assassination. You know, he
• 2:05:13
  Speaker 4: wasn't arrested. I mean, he hadn't been tried. Uh, you know,
• 2:05:16
  Speaker 4: the governor was in cahoots and actually you know, organized
• 2:05:19
  Speaker 4: this assassination. It was a government funded assassination. I mean,
• 2:05:23
  Speaker 4: Billy Jesse has been convicted of no robbery whatsoever.
• 2:05:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah.
• 2:05:30
  Speaker 4: And then you know Jesse had always said and Frank says,
• 2:05:32
  Speaker 4: all we want is a fair trial or whatever, and uh.
• 2:05:36
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, but those guys are cold blood well they were.
• 2:05:39
  Speaker 4: But here's my point. So Frank James, because you know,
• 2:05:43
  Speaker 4: he sees the writing on the wall, you know, he
• 2:05:45
  Speaker 4: thinks who's gonna come after me? He says, I could
• 2:05:47
  Speaker 4: be out chopping wood and somebody's gonna shoot me or whatever.
• 2:05:50
  Speaker 4: So he arranges this surrender to the governor. And Frank
• 2:05:55
  Speaker 4: has tried twice for a crime and muscle shoals out
• 2:05:59
  Speaker 4: of and also for the gallop and galloped and for
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 4: the crime of a trained robber or a man was
• 2:06:04
  Speaker 4: murdered near Winston, Missouri, and he's acquitted in both things.
• 2:06:09
  Speaker 4: He never committed a crime. For the rest of his life.
• 2:06:11
  Speaker 4: He actually did exactly what he was going to say.
• 2:06:13
  Speaker 4: You know, all I want is a fair trial. He
• 2:06:15
  Speaker 4: got it, and he was a perfect citizen, you know.
• 2:06:19
  Speaker 4: And this is the other bizarre thing about Frank and Jesse.
• 2:06:22
  Speaker 4: You know a lot of people think of as like
• 2:06:24
  Speaker 4: cycle pass. Like you said, they're murderers or whatever. Man
• 2:06:27
  Speaker 4: their wives after they were dead, both of them said
• 2:06:30
  Speaker 4: that was the best husband you could ever have. I mean,
• 2:06:32
  Speaker 4: they swore they were just the most gentle, the best
• 2:06:35
  Speaker 4: husband that you could ever have. About Frank and Jesse, well,
• 2:06:40
  Speaker 4: that's right. Well, you know, here's what I think about it.
• 2:06:43
  Speaker 4: Have you read the book American Sniper by Chris Kyle?
• 2:06:46
  Speaker 1: Familiar with it?
• 2:06:46
  Speaker 4: Okay? Well, Chris Kyle writes about how the war in
• 2:06:50
  Speaker 4: the Middle East he was a sniper, and how it
• 2:06:54
  Speaker 4: can numb you to the violence and the killing. And
• 2:06:57
  Speaker 4: there's one point in here where he talks about at
• 2:07:00
  Speaker 4: a distance, he shoots this enemy on a motorcycle and
• 2:07:03
  Speaker 4: there's a guy with him, a spotter, and the guy
• 2:07:06
  Speaker 4: falls off his motorcycle. Kind of funny, and they're laughing
• 2:07:09
  Speaker 4: about it, you know, they're laughing about killing this guy. Yeah,
• 2:07:12
  Speaker 4: he's become numb. You know, he's over there seeing us,
• 2:07:14
  Speaker 4: he's killing people. And I think that's what the Civil
• 2:07:16
  Speaker 4: War did to Frank and Jesse. They did so much
• 2:07:19
  Speaker 4: killing that they were just numb to the violence. And
• 2:07:22
  Speaker 4: yet they could still you know, Jesse had two children.
• 2:07:24
  Speaker 4: He could be a loving father, but if you threaten
• 2:07:27
  Speaker 4: me or you get in my way, he had no
• 2:07:29
  Speaker 4: hesitation about killing you. I mean, it meant nothing to
• 2:07:31
  Speaker 4: him to kill somebody. So it's this weird dichotomy. You know,
• 2:07:34
  Speaker 4: you can be a family man, but yet you can
• 2:07:37
  Speaker 4: kill at the you know, the flip of a switch.
• 2:07:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I like those understandings though. I mean, it's just
• 2:07:44
  Speaker 1: like the complexities of people's motivations. We get into that
• 2:07:51
  Speaker 1: affair bit and talk about these like these, like I
• 2:07:55
  Speaker 1: keep talking with his hide hunter thing.
• 2:07:56
  Speaker 4: Sure, just how most.
• 2:07:57
  Speaker 1: People have put these guys these like they're just doing
• 2:08:02
  Speaker 1: it for the killing buffalo, for the purpose of denying
• 2:08:05
  Speaker 1: the future of the animals. Do you know what I mean?
• 2:08:07
  Speaker 1: When it was like a much more complex picture of
• 2:08:10
  Speaker 1: civil war economics? Right now?
• 2:08:12
  Speaker 4: Is that an audiobook?
• 2:08:13
  Speaker 1: Or it is?
• 2:08:14
  Speaker 4: Okay? And when's that coming out?
• 2:08:15
  Speaker 7: Oh?
• 2:08:16
  Speaker 1: Cool, and go listen right now wherever you gets your
• 2:08:19
  Speaker 1: audio books, you know? Okay, Well, tell me some banjo jokes.
• 2:08:22
  Speaker 1: Grab that banjo on top o. You said you know
• 2:08:24
  Speaker 1: more banjo jokes.
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 4: So what do you call a pretty gal on a
• 2:08:29
  Speaker 4: banjo player's arm?
• 2:08:34
  Speaker 1: I got enough tattoo?
• 2:08:39
  Speaker 4: What do you what do you say to a banjo
• 2:08:42
  Speaker 4: player in a three piece suit, Well, the defendant, please ride.
• 2:08:49
  Speaker 4: Those are really old jokes. So I'm glad you never
• 2:08:51
  Speaker 4: heard of you before.
• 2:08:52
  Speaker 1: No, no, I haven't heard those.
• 2:08:53
  Speaker 4: So this is a five string banjo, A Vega fulk
• 2:08:56
  Speaker 4: Ranger nineteen sixty three. The style I play is a
• 2:08:58
  Speaker 4: historic style. It's called frail under clawhammer. But it's an
• 2:09:01
  Speaker 4: African style. I mean, the banjo's an African instrument. It's
• 2:09:06
  Speaker 4: called it was called a bonzar, a banja and uh. Anyway,
• 2:09:11
  Speaker 4: the knowledge of the banjo was brought here by the enslaved,
• 2:09:14
  Speaker 4: and you know it's it's they tried to take everything
• 2:09:18
  Speaker 4: from their humanity, but once they got to the New world,
• 2:09:21
  Speaker 4: they made the things from their culture and the banjo
• 2:09:23
  Speaker 4: was won. It was a gourd at the stick attached. Yeah,
• 2:09:26
  Speaker 4: so with the banjo is a survivor of that really
• 2:09:29
  Speaker 4: awful era. So what do you want to hear?
• 2:09:32
  Speaker 1: Anything gives?
• 2:09:36
  Speaker 4: Okay, Well I got Old Dan Tucker. Let's see what
• 2:09:39
  Speaker 4: Old Dan Tucker. I'll just do one verse, Old Dan
• 2:09:54
  Speaker 4: Tucker down in town right to go and give all
• 2:09:58
  Speaker 4: to go, gave a jump throwed Old Dan Australia Stop
• 2:10:00
  Speaker 4: get out the way, Get out the way, Get out
• 2:10:03
  Speaker 4: the way, Old Dan Tucker. He's too late. Get a
• 2:10:06
  Speaker 4: supper and get out the way. Get out the way,
• 2:10:09
  Speaker 4: Get out.
• 2:10:10
  Speaker 7: The way, Old Dan Tucker.
• 2:10:11
  Speaker 4: He's too late to get a supper.
• 2:10:15
  Speaker 1: All right, there you go. Is another one that was
• 2:10:18
  Speaker 1: so short, so short, shorties.
• 2:10:22
  Speaker 7: Okay, all right, get out the way. Different.
• 2:10:39
  Speaker 4: So yeah, I heard some turkey straw. Yeah, Turkey and
• 2:10:44
  Speaker 4: the Strong, Turkey and ahead Bullfrog as his mother in
• 2:10:48
  Speaker 4: law play a little too called Turkey in the Strong.
• 2:10:50
  Speaker 1: Well, that is a different song. Here's what I'm sorry.
• 2:10:54
  Speaker 1: Here's what I thought you meant that. I thought I'm sorry.
• 2:10:56
  Speaker 1: I thought you meant that I was asking for more
• 2:10:58
  Speaker 1: Dan talking.
• 2:10:59
  Speaker 4: Oh I just messed it up. But here's one you'll like.
• 2:11:03
  Speaker 4: I'll just do one verse at see. If Jesse was
• 2:11:10
  Speaker 4: your friend on him, you could depend if it be true.
• 2:11:14
  Speaker 4: I am sure he always wore the belt that would
• 2:11:18
  Speaker 4: equalize the wealth. He would rob the rich poor the poor.
• 2:11:23
  Speaker 4: It was with his brother Frank he robbed the Gallatin Bank,
• 2:11:27
  Speaker 4: carry the money from the town. It was at that
• 2:11:30
  Speaker 4: very place they had a little chase before they shot
• 2:11:34
  Speaker 4: Captain Sheets to the ground. Jesse had a wife, the
• 2:11:39
  Speaker 4: pride of his life, his children, they were bread. But
• 2:11:44
  Speaker 4: the dirty little coward that shot mister Howard has lei,
• 2:11:48
  Speaker 4: Jesse James and his grin.
• 2:11:53
  Speaker 1: He's speaking about fort. Yes, dirty little coward and Jesse
• 2:11:57
  Speaker 1: James was living under the.
• 2:11:58
  Speaker 4: Name mister Howard. Yeah.
• 2:12:01
  Speaker 1: Wow, that's great man. Oh thanks, yeah, So your work
• 2:12:05
  Speaker 1: as a historian, your and your interests in banjo playing
• 2:12:08
  Speaker 1: are they are they like hand in hand or was
• 2:12:09
  Speaker 1: it different past?
• 2:12:10
  Speaker 4: No, it's hand in hand. But of course I always
• 2:12:13
  Speaker 4: as a kid was fascinated by the banjo, and then
• 2:12:17
  Speaker 4: my first and I was started to take, you know,
• 2:12:20
  Speaker 4: lessons and anyway, my first summer job at the Park
• 2:12:23
  Speaker 4: Service is at a place called bent sold Fort National
• 2:12:26
  Speaker 4: Historic Site near La Hunt, and they were big in
• 2:12:28
  Speaker 4: the buffalo robe trade on the southern plains, and so
• 2:12:31
  Speaker 4: I had my banjo there and I quickly learned that
• 2:12:35
  Speaker 4: scrug style playing was not around in the eighteen forties,
• 2:12:37
  Speaker 4: that's nineteen forties. So I started getting interested in the
• 2:12:41
  Speaker 4: historic styles of playing the banjo and the historic music.
• 2:12:44
  Speaker 4: And even today when I'm doing research in diaries and journals,
• 2:12:47
  Speaker 4: if there's a reference to a song or a tune,
• 2:12:51
  Speaker 4: you know, I make note of that, and so I'll
• 2:12:52
  Speaker 4: do it in my programs. I'll do programs the historic
• 2:12:54
  Speaker 4: music of the.
• 2:12:55
  Speaker 1: West, John Cook's Memoirs Full of songs.
• 2:12:58
  Speaker 5: Oh it is, yeah, I do know that did the
• 2:13:00
  Speaker 5: Definitive Guide to the Santa Fe Wagons. You ought to
• 2:13:03
  Speaker 5: do the history of the banjo.
• 2:13:04
  Speaker 4: Well there's been some books on that actually, so somebody
• 2:13:09
  Speaker 4: beat me to the punch on that one. But you know,
• 2:13:11
  Speaker 4: to me, it helps bring history alive when you can
• 2:13:13
  Speaker 4: play the music, you know, the Jesse James or Billy
• 2:13:17
  Speaker 4: the Kid. You know, Billy the Kid was a huge
• 2:13:20
  Speaker 4: fan of Turkey in the straw. But he was actually
• 2:13:24
  Speaker 4: but he didn't call it turkey in the straw. He
• 2:13:26
  Speaker 4: would tell the musicians he was a great dancer, went
• 2:13:28
  Speaker 4: to the violets and fan Diego's. He would say to
• 2:13:30
  Speaker 4: the musicians, don't forget the guyana, don't forget to play
• 2:13:33
  Speaker 4: the g So in New Mexico, well, in the New World,
• 2:13:36
  Speaker 4: the Spaniards did not have a term for the wild turkey,
• 2:13:39
  Speaker 4: so they called it the guyana de la tierra, the
• 2:13:42
  Speaker 4: chicken of the region, or the ear.
• 2:13:43
  Speaker 1: What about the wahalloe, the wahllo te yeah, like in
• 2:13:47
  Speaker 1: Sonora they call Turkey's.
• 2:13:48
  Speaker 4: Oh really, I know, yeah, I didn't know o no.
• 2:13:51
  Speaker 4: But anyway, in New Mexico they refer to the Walterra
• 2:13:53
  Speaker 4: as the Guyina. So when Billy the kids said, don't
• 2:13:56
  Speaker 4: forget the Guyana, he meant turkey in the straw. Really yeah, yeah.
• 2:14:01
  Speaker 1: I got one last question, okay, because you strike me
• 2:14:03
  Speaker 1: as a felt that would be able to do this.
• 2:14:05
  Speaker 1: What you big turkey hunter are? Do you do you
• 2:14:08
  Speaker 1: mouth call? Natural, natural mouth call?
• 2:14:10
  Speaker 4: No, I don't. Oh I have done natural mouth call sometimes, yes,
• 2:14:13
  Speaker 4: but it's not very good. It's it's just I mean,
• 2:14:20
  Speaker 4: I just throw that in usually I do think, yeah.
• 2:14:24
  Speaker 1: Turkey hunting, they can tear it up.
• 2:14:27
  Speaker 4: That's just in my you know tool box. Usually I've
• 2:14:30
  Speaker 4: got a I've got a wing bone call, I got
• 2:14:31
  Speaker 4: a slate call, then I got a giant box call.
• 2:14:34
  Speaker 4: So I got those three, and then sometimes I'll throw
• 2:14:36
  Speaker 4: in you know that other sound which isn't as good
• 2:14:38
  Speaker 4: as those other things. But next time I have to
• 2:14:41
  Speaker 4: tell you the time I was attacked by a Cody Well,
• 2:14:43
  Speaker 4: I was turkey hunting. Just rip it right now, Okay,
• 2:14:47
  Speaker 4: that's what I'm I grew up at a town of
• 2:14:49
  Speaker 4: five hundred people, so most people know me. There's a
• 2:14:51
  Speaker 4: guy that got attacked by the code, not an author. Yeah.
• 2:14:55
  Speaker 4: So I'm set up with my back to a tree,
• 2:14:57
  Speaker 4: right and I've got my and I hear these couple
• 2:15:00
  Speaker 4: full of gobblers really far away. So I got this
• 2:15:02
  Speaker 4: box call and I'm holding it up here and I'm
• 2:15:04
  Speaker 4: trying to, you know, get this sound to him. And
• 2:15:06
  Speaker 4: all of a sudden, I see like this patch of
• 2:15:09
  Speaker 4: fur I just kind of appears here. And then I
• 2:15:12
  Speaker 4: hear this this pain on my arm, and then I
• 2:15:15
  Speaker 4: see bounding away this coyote just so it actually it
• 2:15:18
  Speaker 4: saw that movement. Yeah, and I had I had a
• 2:15:21
  Speaker 4: gobbler decoy out there too, so I guess he thought
• 2:15:23
  Speaker 4: there were a bunch of turkeys. So he bites down
• 2:15:25
  Speaker 4: on here, then he bounds away. I didn't really think
• 2:15:28
  Speaker 4: much of it because the pain went away quickly. And
• 2:15:30
  Speaker 4: so a few minutes later, the gobbler comes in and
• 2:15:32
  Speaker 4: I shoot my gobbler. Oh yeah. So and then I
• 2:15:35
  Speaker 4: get home, I get where I was seen with by
• 2:15:37
  Speaker 4: with By at my parents house, and I take off
• 2:15:40
  Speaker 4: my wool shirt and there's blood and I said, oh, well,
• 2:15:43
  Speaker 4: you know, I didn't know it was that that bad
• 2:15:45
  Speaker 4: or whatever. And my mom says, you better call your
• 2:15:47
  Speaker 4: doctor or whatever. So I called the doctor and he says,
• 2:15:49
  Speaker 4: you got to get a Raby shot. And I said, well,
• 2:15:51
  Speaker 4: the kyudi looked pretty healthy. Didn't look like it. You know,
• 2:15:54
  Speaker 4: I didn't want to get a Raby shot.
• 2:15:55
  Speaker 8: You know.
• 2:15:56
  Speaker 4: He says, Mark, there's no cure. You know, either you
• 2:15:58
  Speaker 4: get it. I mean, who knows? So okay, I go
• 2:16:00
  Speaker 4: to the I go to the emergency room in Liberty, Missouri,
• 2:16:04
  Speaker 4: and they start the Raby shop process. You'll go around
• 2:16:06
  Speaker 4: the wound with all these different things. And I'm talking
• 2:16:08
  Speaker 4: to the emergency room doctor and I'm and he's tell
• 2:16:11
  Speaker 4: you know, he asked me, well, how does happen? And
• 2:16:12
  Speaker 4: then what do you do for a living? I'm a
• 2:16:14
  Speaker 4: history and blah blah blah. And he goes, you sure
• 2:16:17
  Speaker 4: lead an interesting life. You're an emergency room doctor. You've
• 2:16:21
  Speaker 4: got to have better stories than I do. But anyway,
• 2:16:24
  Speaker 4: that's my story. I got attacked by a coyote. And
• 2:16:27
  Speaker 4: I tell people, I said, you know, I'm a pretty
• 2:16:28
  Speaker 4: good turkey caller. I fooled a coyote.
• 2:16:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, sure, man, Yeah, you got a wedding ring on. Yes,
• 2:16:33
  Speaker 1: how long you been married?
• 2:16:34
  Speaker 4: I've been married since uh since the early nineteen eighties.
• 2:16:38
  Speaker 4: I'm not sure what year, but anyway, yes, good run.
• 2:16:42
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 2:16:43
  Speaker 4: I'm sorry that hopefully my watch not listing there.
• 2:16:45
  Speaker 1: What's the secret to a big, long marriage like that?
• 2:16:48
  Speaker 7: You know?
• 2:16:48
  Speaker 4: Uh, we my wife and I share a lot of interest.
• 2:16:51
  Speaker 4: She's a museum curator. She very interested in the history
• 2:16:56
  Speaker 4: in the past, and we love visiting historic sites together.
• 2:17:00
  Speaker 4: I don't know that my children enjoyed that as much
• 2:17:03
  Speaker 4: as my wife and I did, but we took them too,
• 2:17:05
  Speaker 4: just like my parents took me. But you know, it's
• 2:17:07
  Speaker 4: really kind of a common shared interest in the past,
• 2:17:10
  Speaker 4: and we find artifacts fascinating and the stories of real
• 2:17:14
  Speaker 4: people in the past, and we even find her own
• 2:17:16
  Speaker 4: family histories interesting. She's really big into her own genealogy
• 2:17:20
  Speaker 4: and her family made a real mark in ute past.
• 2:17:23
  Speaker 4: Colorado have been there for decades and decades.
• 2:17:29
  Speaker 1: Mark Lee Gardner's brand speak any new book, Wider Dot
• 2:17:32
  Speaker 1: holl Day and a Reckoning and Tombstone, Brothers of the
• 2:17:35
  Speaker 1: Gun is what it's called. Got a lot of other books.
• 2:17:38
  Speaker 1: Fantastic storyteller. Thanks for coming on.
• 2:17:41
  Speaker 4: Man Hey Thank you for having me.
• 2:17:42
  Speaker 1: Thank you appreciate it.
• 2:17:43
  Speaker 4: Thanks