Latest / Putting Is Fun / The USGA Said Heck No. Version Five Is in Tony Finau's Bag | Ep. 13

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The USGA Said Heck No. Version Five Is in Tony Finau's Bag | Ep. 13 · Putting Is Fun

• speaker-1: Classic John Rooter, you can find your center, be a straight shooter. Train yourself to respect the three-footer. Bring out your Scotty or that new fango lab. Your time rollin' puts will surely be fair. Putt, but putting, it's just like it seems. You can drift away and chill in a dream. But with your rose, go soak up the sun-free vitamin D is good for everyone. I'm just spitting facts, putting is fun. speaker-0: Putting is fun. Let me tell you, the number one putting podcast in the world. I think we actually are number one. I did a little research today. Brian Manzala coming to you from New Orleans, and our dear friend is back. speaker-1: Back, back, back. Yeah, a little bit little bit injured wing, but I'm cool. John Ortega from Costa Mesa, California. speaker-0: So we're starting the show with a new little toy to show you, but we've showed you this thing before, right? So what's the putter ex exactly? speaker-1: The putter is the ping alley. speaker-0: Right. So what is explain to people what onset means. speaker-1: Onset means that the shaft is behind the face. So so when you set up to the ball, the face is in front of the shaft. So anybody that's watching, you can clearly see that face in su front of the shaft. Most speaker-0: The opposite would be offset, right? Which would be speaker-1: Exactly like a like a ping answer or Scotty Cameron Newport two. speaker-0: Shaft in front of the face. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. speaker-0: But but today's show, not just a ping alley onset. What else we got? speaker-1: We have a really, really cool putter that was designed by a hockey player from Wisconsin. His name is last name's Wright. Let me see what's first name, Tim Wright. So he's kind of like one of the Wright brothers. He's trying something new. He speaker-0: And he was a hockey player, right? speaker-1: was a hockey player, his dad was a hockey player. He's from a hockey family. You know, Wisconsin. A lot of people there play hockey. So when when he was playing golf with this just a standard putter, center putter grip, He felt that the grip was just too small. It just didn't feel right to him because he's so used to holding a hockey stick. So he thought, well, shoot, I'll just put a hockey stick in a putter. And he did. He had a a Scotty Cameron Newport 2, put a hockey stick in it. It was a super heavy hockey stick. It was like 400 grams. Like normal putter shafts are a hundred and a few grams. And then if by the time you put a grip on it, it's like 170 grams. So the shaft alone was, you know. twice at least heavier than a normal putter shaft. So but he said he started making a lot of putts, you know, to the chagrin of his friends and the people he was competing against. But then he thought he was onto something. So his father started tr using it. He was a really good hockey player. I guess he was a nationally ranked guy, you collegiate player. And then his other other buddies that were hockey players started using it too. So he thought, hey, I might be onto something. One of the pros at I think I forget what the golf golf course it was was it maybe Maybe where they're playing the President's Cup to just make up a story. said that that's probably not conforming. So he reached out to the US G USGA and asked if it was conforming. They go, heck no, that's not like a golf thing. And so No, speaker-0: Heck no. speaker-1: they said probably more than that, but but th th they were they weren't buying. So but they were rooting him on. They they kinda liked his his vibe and they liked what he was trying to do, help people play golf and you know, just make the game better. And so they Yeah, told him sorry, you can't do that. You're gonna have to come up with something that's little bit more, you know, in the in like plane in shape, whatever the the rule is. I I don't have it in front of me, but it's it's called plain in shape. It has to look like a golf club or play like a golf club. So all right. So he he said after I think it was like four iterations on his fifth, he finally came up with the solution that got it passed. So it's it's not a putter shaft, it's a putter grip. So he has he has a cylindric bottom part that's the shaft. And then the rest is a grip. So you're allowed to have a square grip. It's not allowed to have a square shaft, which kind of surprised me because the Bobby Schaefer, you know, the sh the side saddler face on had a square shaft. But in any case, he got it through. super, super pumped about it. And I think that was he started doing this whole thing in 2018. So I I think it maybe it was a few years ago that it was g granted conforming, conforming status. So he he's he and his friends are playing with it, you know, just hadn't made its way on tour. But lo and behold, you know, a couple months ago, Derek Ueda, who's a pretty famous putting coach from San Diego, he's best known for coaching Xander Shaffle, but he's coaches other guys out there too. I see him, you know, with different people from time to time. And most recently he started working with Tony Fino. And Tony speaker-0: who was way, way down in the in the putting stats. Had it's had a tough time of it. speaker-1: Yes, he's you know, he's for for for those guys, he's not a very good putter. For us, he's good putter. It's just it's a different league, right? It's like amateur boxing and pro boxing. You know, you might be the best guy in your gym, but you get in with a real good pro boxer, you're gonna get your head c knocked off, right? But t Tony's a super talented guy. I've seen him putt well too, but it's just somehow that's just not his his strong suit or hasn't been. So Derek reached out to Mr. Wright, it was Tim Wright, and asked, you know. Can we get a putter shaft? Can you can you rig one of these things up for us? And he he did. He sent it out to him and I think it was like an overnight thing. A couple of putters came and went back and Tony used them in practice for a couple, two, three weeks and then a week before the Biltmore, I think it was called, Tony reached out to Tim and asked if it was conforming. And he said, Of course, you know, I've got the letter, it's you know, conforming. So he put it in play and I guess he's doing pretty well with it. It's making the news speaker-0: 38 inch, is what I here. 38 inch so he can choke up a little bit and which changes the balance point obviously a little bit for him. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. I I didn't get that part, but I'm glad you did. So good job there. speaker-0: But in in a in a similar way, right, to to the most famous practitioner of the ping alley onset, Wyndham Clark, right? He's choking, he's got the long grip. This is just a super long grip. Now how it looks shiny. Is it is it is it smooth? speaker-1: He has two two versions. One of them has a little bit of texture to it. I forget how he described it, but he basically it has texture. And the other one's smooth. So, you know, he he's got one for either either taste. So I'm gonna get a couple for Jake. Jake's a hockey player, so he I I'm sure he'll want a couple of his putters converted. But this guy, he he at least for the time being, insists that he puts the shafts in because he wants them to be perfect. He's a perfectionist. Back to the story about the shaft. So the shaft used to be, you know, four, four, three hundred between three hundred and four hundred grams. He probably just cannibalizes a stick and whatever it's weighed, it weighed, right? So he had to come up with a way to make it a little bit more golfy. So now he's got it to the point where it's hundred and seventy grams, give or take. And so when you put it on your putter, it's you know, it feels more like a regular putter. So he says what the finished weight on them is usually about 550 to 570 grams. By the time you get it, he gets it where he wants it to be. So he would encourage whoever somebody's somebody sending in the putter that he he likes mallets because he thinks you can make them heavier, which you can. You can either put those little discs in them or do what Wyndham Clark did, just put a bunch of lead on the bottom if that doesn't bother you. And voila, you've got this really nice putter. So square putter grips, I've had some before. There was one natural golf company, I don't know if you remember that, the Mono. Yep. Yep. Yeah, so they had a square putter grip and and they're it was big. And he th this guy he he made the but the putter that way because, you know, using the hockey stick all the time, he puts a putter grip in his hand, a normal one like a ping blackout or something like that. It feels tiny, it's like a pencil. So and he explained to me all the reasons or all the things that he can do on the ice. He can shoot from here, he can shoot from there. I'm not a hockey player, so I was trying to half follow, but instead from the blue line, which is I guess half court, and say he he he he could make some from pretty far doing all these di different difficult hockey shots. So he figured if if I can do that from that far away, you know, this this hold on a club should be, you know, very, very helpful. And it was. So that that's that's the genesis of how it came about. So now it's you know it's out there and he's a super nice guy. And he wants he you know, he wants to get it out there even more. But then having somebody on the PGA tour using your product, that launches your your product like instantaneously. So I'm I'm rooting for the guy. Super cool. speaker-0: So tell me this. So at the end of the day you send him a putter and what he's putting in is a grip that has a shaft that goes all the way up or it just looks like it does. How would anybody know to make it lighter? And then it has this little I saw a picture like a twelve inches or so, maybe less than that, down at the bottom that looks like a shaft. Do you think that he has the shaft going all the way up or he just made the grip in such a way that It looks like the shafts going up. speaker-1: I didn't get into that much detail, but I I would imagine it's solid or or has if it is hollow, he told me the original ones they when you putted with it it made like an awful sound and had this crazy vibration. It wasn't, you know, pal palatable to most people. So he's worked that out. So, you know, next conversation with him I'll I'll ask that. But he you know, he's he's got this thing pretty refined. So, you know, if if you're Looking to try something different. It's not super expensive. The retail's two twenty five. LA Golf had a putter shaft that was like four hundred dollars. And I think stability shafts were nearly the same. And this absolutely you know, s w worth a try. I've speaker-0: So what does he think what you know, what what is his s you know, sales pitch as you okay, you get this, not only do you have this different feel in your hands and you know, i I've seen people online, I did a little research for the show, got people doing the langer, they got people split handed, you know, like really, you know, with with the left hand, not not turned like a a broomstick, but regular handed, I'm sure you could broomstick it, split handed. And then just kind of regular grip choke choke down a little bit. what what is he saying that it's gonna be what besides the flexibility of you can grip it any length you want, all the way down to like right by the head, what what is the sales pitch? Is it lower torque? Is it more feel? What speaker-1: I think it's more feel because he's gonna put it on different putters. So that that would you know, if if it was a center shaft kind of a lab setup or tailor made or any of the other ones, like even this one, which is, you know, some kind of play on low torque, even though they say it isn't. He said he said that this is this is what he said the benefit was. Okay. It took me a while to th to sort through that. It's been a while. I've been off. I'm off my game. But he he said that it it it it it takes away a little bit of the rotation. So he thinks it it quiets your hands down twist. Gamma. speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: Yeah, the gamma. Gamma torque? speaker-0: Yeah. Well gamma ro well, gamma rotation is twisting the shaft about itself. Okay. How you do that is by gamma torquing it. speaker-1: Okay. Well that's I was halfway there. speaker-0: wind up with less of both, probably. Because it's just thick and it's long and speaker-1: I think I think having it sideways, it's probably easy for you to feel when you're doing that. Yeah, speaker-0: And where the fans, right? And where the fate. speaker-1: there's there's probably something that goes from your brain to your hands that you know it heightens that awareness. So I I'll tell you when I get one. I'm gonna be getting two for Jake and I'll probably get one or two for myself. 'Cause I I'm a I'm I'm a sucker for any of that stuff, as you could probably speaker-0: Because because because it's always fun. So what do you think if you did a test, just you know, we we have to we have to do a s supposition here because neither one of us have the product and now we're gonna help put it on the map somewhat. You know, not only all the regular media outlets doing something on this, but w You took a person who's got a decent but not great stroke on Sam Puttlab and you put something like this in there, w do you think that it's possible that for some people it's gonna like be some sort of instant somewhat improvement or not? speaker-1: like to think so. I I don't know. So I you know it's it's hard to speak from a place of like knowing without trying it, right? But I think it will. That's just my guess and my hope. Because I I really like the idea. I like the sky. I like anything that's new in golf that it's gonna help people or it's gonna spurn interest. Any of that is a positive in my mind. And it sounds like he's worked out all the details that make it more playable. So I'm I'm I'm looking forward to getting one or two or more. And helping the guys sell a few. speaker-0: Yeah, w to me, as a practitioner of weird grips myself, of ways to hold the putter, the idea that this grip goes way down the club. And you could finagle many more possible ways to hold it based on the fact that there's just more grip there, right? Even if you went and got a Garson 17-inch. This thing is like more like thirty inches, right? Something like I mean, right? It's gotta be close to thirty inches. speaker-1: I have I haven't seen it, but you have. But yeah, he's he he said that if you hold it down further, farther, further, that it changes the swing balance. So it's like when you have a a putter on a swing weight sale or any any club. Yes. You know, you the little fulcrum thing, you know? huh. You get your hands down there, it kind of changes the feel and the weight. So he says it once you find your best, he goes, you can just mark your your spot because there's probably like letters on the shaft or something. And and he says, you know, you you can place your hands on it the same w time the same way every time. Not that you couldn't without it, but you know, he but he says there's there's a that feature to the putter too. It helps you grip the club the same way every time. speaker-0: So I found the picture. Here you go, folks. speaker-1: Boom. Look at that. Whoa. speaker-0: There is Tony Final. So let's again, I want I want you to comment in a second here, John, but I'm just for the folks watching speaker-1: Already did, whoa. speaker-0: Right. Yeah, yeah, I gotcha. The first comment was whoa. So for the folks watching, you you see what you're dealing with, it's it's pretty wide where where where he's got his finger down. speaker-1: Got it up his left arm. speaker-0: Right, he's got it up his left arm. Kind of bryson, but in a normal posture, right? Thirty eight inch putter. It looks like eight, what is that? Eight, ten inches of shaft? speaker-1: at least speaker-0: Visible shaft. speaker-1: At least. I'm gonna I'm gonna give it at least at least a foot, but probably more like ooh six sixteen inches I'm gonna go with. speaker-0: Okay, so somewhere between so so okay, what you're looking at, he's putting with the ping, alley offset, you know, the one that the white one that Wyndham Clark won the US Open of Shinnecock with. And he's got twelve, fourteen inches of black shaft, you know, right right in the normal place, and then this hockey stick grip, which looks l shiny, looking at the the one in the picture on the right. And it's just You know, to me, I mean he he's doing a looks to be, John, to be like a normal putting grip with a Nancy Lopez finger on it, you know. speaker-1: Yeah, he's got the over forty. He's getting below speaker-0: But he's also got the top part of the because he's gripping it like it's a 34 inch putter and he's got at least four or five inches of grip on his lead forearm. Again, like he could have even put his hand like if he wanted to take his right hand on a real short putt, was what's the guy Paul Trevillion? Yeah. speaker-1: The miss missing impossible. speaker-0: Missing impossible. Wasn't his whole thing is just grip it down there like, you know, as far down the is there a limit to where you can grip it? I think there is, isn't there? speaker-1: I don't know th or grip it. I just think it's length of putter. But maybe maybe grip it. I don't know. It's been been a while since I visited that part of the rule book, but I'll check it out. speaker-0: The head. You can't hold you can't hold the head. So if you went down to be like an inch from the head, it would be I think there's a rule. I think there's maybe a foot or eighteen inches you have to hold. I don't think anybody's gonna pull. speaker-1: That's homework homework for us and anybody else that wants speaker-0: Exactly. But it it it's the grip is wider than I thought it was, you know, from from back to from top to bottom on the alpha axis for the Jacobs 3D people. In in in line with the face. So if you held the putter up, up and down, the face as you look at the grip seems pretty wide, which a hockey stick is, right? So that's kind of the thing. You you have the flat side. Didn't ping have a grip shape like that? kinda really skinny but tall that way, like skinny from back to front. I'm almost positive. speaker-1: I'm gonna I'm gonna say yes. that seems to r register a a memory, let's say. speaker-0: So if if you had like, you know, a hundred people that that walk through the door, that's not a good sample size at your place because there's certain kind of people gonna you know go take a golf lesson from you and a certain kind of people, smart people, the people that's gonna do it. Not everybody is that smart. So so let's just say the next hundred people that tee off at one of the two courses at Costa Mesa, th they have every kind of putter, you know, in the bag. If you gave everybody this putter and you said, hey, you know, your next round is free. And if you like the putter, but you have to keep using it, it's the putter's free. How many people would would use it? Do you think I mean like you you think it's got a chance to be something that again, we're talking about regular golfers here, not tour players. I got some ideas on the tour player thing. speaker-1: if it was free, they're gonna they're gonna take it for sure. But if they kept it in the bag is the question. Yeah, who's I would say at least ten percent, but I I'd be more hopeful to think twenty percent. 'Cause most people put not very good. speaker-0: No. speaker-1: So so anything even with the placebo is better than what they've got going right now because some people it it it's it's interesting that they don't ever want to try to get better. For some reason they complain about how poorly they putt, but they don't want to take the time to go hit some putts or get get a tip from somebody, you know, get a lesson. Even if it's not from somebody like me that charges a little bit more than the average teaching pro. You know, if if they went to one of the guys at the Costa Mesa and they went out and just had a look at you know, they're they're gonna putt better for sure. But but they don't they don't. It's it's it's interesting. But if if somebody was gonna give some advice on how to hit their I don't know, seven iron straighter or or learn how to draw a ball. They're all ears. We're still we're still battling that battle. speaker-0: Yeah, no, there's no there there's no doubt with putting. There's just some you know, you need to try different putters and different things. You need to try putting lessons, you need to and then this is something else. So Finao called it, like said he said, you know, it's if it's legal it had it hadn't left this bag. It hadn't left this bag. But The first tournament with it, I think he missed the cut seventy eight, seventy one. Now that doesn't mean anything. He might have putted better. It it was a hundred and fifteenth and strokes gained putting. But I'm with you. I sort of my argument is I think it's got a chance to be good because it gives it just the options, right? The the amount of options you get and a completely different feel from something that's smooth and wide that I think people that, you know don't like the way the putter feels in their hands have a chance to, you know, experiment and come up with a grip that works for them. speaker-1: Yeah, so if you if you if you just imagine, you know, people that are whi or listening, they're not gonna be able to see it. But if speaker-0: Yeah, we'll talk square. speaker-1: you had something square, I think sometimes I'll take a one inch rule or excuse me, one foot ruler. Right. If people have their hands on a club kind of cockamame, whether it's they're hitting a golf ball or butting, and I say, Okay, here's your hands in like a prayer position. For most people I recommend they go prayer and turn a little bit to the right for hitting a golf ball, right? So you get a little bit of stronger grip so that the face isn't open. Hopefully, right? Exactly. And then for putting, you know, I I I used to teach a lot of in the poem, like the Yeah, speaker-0: I used to as well. I used to as well. speaker-1: and and I I'm kind of more like a faith line person, like that. So if you get your prayer hands and finagle your fingers on there, you're pretty much there. So I think that that that grip it forces your hands to do that or lends itself to your hands doing that. I think that's really in my mind the benefit. You're gonna put your hands on like that every time. And then you have like these two palms. This one faces the target and the or the the direction you wanna swing. And this one is the back of it does the same thing. So you gotta speaker-0: And it's also facing the direction you want to make the backstroke. speaker-1: Exactly. So it's it's it's the there are two directors. That's the way I look at this this setup that I think that's gonna benefit people. So I'm I'm interested. I'm gonna get a few, like I said, and I'll have some in here for people to try. I'm sure I'll I'll move some of these things for this guy for sure. speaker-0: Well, the other thing that I look at, right, ha having putting a bunch of different ways, you could d multi-grip it, right? You could have a conventional grip with the putter not you know, just the the the last four or five inches there for counterbalance and putt your long ones that way. And then you could maybe on your mid length putts do what phenols doing and have your same grip and then have it on your left forearm. And then potentially on your short putts, either grip way down with your right hand while it's up against your left arm or just s switch around and kinda cross handed lang or up against your left arm. To be able to do that, all those different things, side saddle if you want to, you could flip it around and butt side saddle with it. If if because the length you're gonna probably get it, it's gonna be a little bit longer than your normal, you know, Johnny Ortega J two O thirty five or thirty four inch that most people have, then I think that that by itself lends itself to speaker-1: And that's what Tim recommends. He said if you're a thirty four inch guy, you're gonna go thirty five or thirty six. He said Jerry Kelly's one of the guys that's been using it off and on. I don't know if he's actually put it in play, but he's normally a thirty three and a half thirty three and a half inch user and he uses a thirty five. So if you go a little bit longer, it's supposed to be better, it gives you more possibilities. speaker-0: I like it. I like the idea of it. So our our friend, I knew him when he was Scott Cameron, according to you, he did you do when he was Scott Cam Scotty Cam Scotty Scotty has a new putter available. speaker-1: Very nice. speaker-0: it's I'm gonna I'm gonna pull this up here for everybody. speaker-1: That guy in there. speaker-0: And then we'll then we'll speaker-1: See if I can get Jake to get me a free one. I'm running out of money. I that's the perks. Almost forty thousand dollars for my Zen putting platform. So that then that's my deposit. So my business bank account's kind of shrinking. But putting's fun. speaker-0: It's putting is fun and sometimes putting is a little more expensive than other times. The latest. Eight hundred dollars for the black version right here, the OC. speaker-1: I'll take two. speaker-0: So what do you think about so for the folks not not able to see, and you know, the f see you see what you're seeing, right? So you got kind of the Scotty back. It's not of Fang, right? Putter. But it has two little extra little pieces. speaker-1: batwing. speaker-0: Bat wings, right? It's got three lines across the face. It's got that new. speaker-1: Like a groove board. Like a groove board. He's he's thinking. speaker-0: Yeah, thinking like a groove board and and and it's you know, the no torque category. But the question for the putter designer here Why do you think he's on purpose saying low torque and not no torque? speaker-1: Because there's no such thing as no torque. speaker-0: Plus he gets to tweak he gets to tweak the lab guys a little. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. Probably he's gotta have his own his his own his own rendition. And I think it's smart. He does he doesn't do too many things that aren't smart. Looks great too. speaker-0: Yeah, no, it's it's it it's so it's one of those things where, you know, like at what point is is too much too much, right, for a putter, right? Is it worth I mean, I think the thing about a putter like this, Cameron putters that are relatively expensive, if you take care of the thing, if you put terrible with it, the resale is pretty good. It used to be like you know, ping clubs, you know, back in the day, right? I could sell I had a ping account and I could sell all my ping clubs to Edwin Watts at the end every month because they just would buy as many as I wanted and give me fifteen percent. I know that's illegal, but I don't have an account with a ping anymore, so I'm turning myself in. Send please send me an IDI too, iron, for the trouble. this is the way I look at it. I if you had a putter that you were gonna use for four or five years and you were gonna putt good with it, what's that word? Right? It It's more than a couple of hundred dollars. I mean, that's the whole point, right? speaker-1: For sure, but if you li going back to you saying that maybe you don't like it, if it's a limited issue, almost all those sell for more. So I don't think you can lose. They they appreciate. This one looks really good too. And and it's and it's a departure from most of the other things he's made as well. speaker-0: Now now before Jake you know, took off Tom for his hand injury, like toward the end, the last couple of events he played, he played with a Scotty low torque putter. Was it this head, but maybe just a different finish? speaker-1: Yes. I th I I I I can't say that for sure, but t to me it looked exactly the same, you know. So yes. And and earlier in the season, I even said this on one of the previous podcasts, he said that Low Torque or North Torque feel didn't agree with him, but I guess he changed his mind. He changes his mind a lot when it comes to butters. speaker-0: Well, you know what the what's interesting about trying putters, right? And and the the two in question today. talked to Michael Jacobs right before we started recording today. He had a friend of ours that we talked about in the last show, Matt Brydo, was at the Rock Hill Golf and Country Club and the Mike Jacobs Jacobs three D studio for a couple of days of working on his game and teaching. So our friend Matt Bright that has the the towel that you lag to gimme towel. Yeah. He was out there and I I asked him about, I told him what we were doing the show on, and he said he got one at the show. So I I guess Mr. Wright was at the show and he just it, you know, Mike has tried a bunch of different putters. He's a he's a he makes a good stroke, doesn't make very many putts. And he tried it and he said, There's one available at the Rocky Hill Golf Club. If anybody wants it. So it's one of those things where we're not saying it's the answer. I think that it d when you when you're dealing with things like this in putting in putting more than like with a driver, y you have a chance to take a a whack at an eight hundred dollar putter or two hundred twenty five dollar putter grip shaft combination that you're not gonna put on a you're not gonna put it on a Walmart putter. You know, these these things still have some value, you know, on the back end, which is which is good. Now If you were gonna work on what this shaft grip combination, right? Tell me what the name of it is again. I know Mr. Rabbit. speaker-1: Caliber Golf is the name of the company. I don't know if it has a name for the model, but it the the the city is Kenosha. Yeah. A Kino and Sha. Kenosha. Yeah. And and the the the website, I think if you just Google search caliber golf from Putter or something like that. And guy said it's okay for me to give away the number. So I can give you the the phone number. So it's two five, no, excuse me, two six two four five five. Six two three nine is the the phone number. speaker-0: Very easy to find when I Googled it to get some information for the show. So, you know, give those guys a holler. Now, if you were gonna try to do something similar without doing that, right? Because you thought, okay, you know, it there's some grips that you think out there that have a similar shape that you know of, you know, kind of square and elongated. On in the club base axis. speaker-1: I think some of the super strokes, I was at Roger Dunn's the other day and I think I saw some of those that they're kind of squarish. Like I was looking at the pistol two point or one point and some of them are very square. I was surprised. I was like, Wow, I didn't didn't know they made those. So if if I don't think you have to look too far to find things that are super flat on the top and fairly wide. I think that's a new thing. You know, before it was just the whole thing, like the original superstrokes were like Baseball barrels. Giant is speaker-0: Unbelievable. I got I got a couple of Lombardi putters over here. One I was putting good with to making me think about putting it in play. And it's got just a typical, you know, like w I don't want to say one point but the big, you know, superstroke. And it was like the grip I'm using right now actually worked pretty good for that. I wish it was squarer. So, you know, it it there's something to the squaring thing. And then You've been able to do this in golf for a long time and there just haven't been that many square grips, have there? speaker-1: Not that I know of. I th th the only ones that that I remember is the the natural golf. They had a square grip. And I think I saw a couple Kenneth Smith putters back from way back in the day. And then there's also a gr a golf pride square grip. I had it on what was the name of the it was like a dingling or something. Like my dingaling. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, Chuck Barry maybe. speaker-1: Yeah, so it's i it it was it was definitely square and had the lines on the side. Bobby Schaefer used to use them all the time. So th there have been some for sure. But I had to rack my brain to remember it. But there there there have been some, but this this is a whole new thing. speaker-0: So if folks wanted to work on their putting stroke with their current putter and utilize the idea of, you know, the palms facing, left palm helping you push the putter back and then right palm helping you, you know, somewhat push the putter through. Wha what what's a good, you know, practice exercise that you would have somebody do to to make a stroke that had a little bit more of that action in it? Good question. You didn't want to be twisting all over the place. You wanted it to kinda you you you can have some throw, but not twist. What's the anti-twist John Ortega practice exercise? speaker-1: I usually recommend to people that come to me they get a ruler that's made by a company called Wright and or actually Swanson. Swanson, sorry. And it's it's about speaker-0: Not a golf company, just a ruler company. speaker-1: Yeah, you go you go to a s s a site called Zoro, like the guy that made the sign of the Z. Zoro speaker-0: Yeah yeah. speaker-1: tools. And there there's it's called Swanson, the Swanson ruler yellow. I like yellow because it doesn't reflect. If you get the silver ones at Home Depot, you get in the sun, it blinds you. The Swanson yellow ruler, you can get forty eight inches. I usually get the six inch sixty, excuse me, for another reason. But you can lay it on its side. So people that are watching, you you put it on an angle like this, maybe you know Less than twenty degrees if you wanna kinda straighten out things. You just ride it back and forth. It's kinda like the Yeah, speaker-0: Plain board. speaker-1: it's like a plane board. And and it when you actually go away from it, it's not gonna be that 'cause w you're gonna have a little bit of curve when you start rotating your shoulders and all that. But speaker-0: So if you if you set one of those up or a plane board up and you got in Sam Puttlab and you kept the heel on it and you let's just say the putter was square enough in the back that you could also take the in out of plane rotation, right? If you just kept it like, you know, square to the plane, so to speak, what would that look like on Sam Puttlab rotation of the face and the curvature of the stroke? I'm sure you've done it before. speaker-1: I haven't. But I will. speaker-0: Really? Yeah, it's got a homework project for you. But what would your what would your guess be? speaker-1: My guess is it would depend on how vertical you you set the ruler. But I I usually if if I'm trying to take some of that out, I I'll set it a little bit more vertical. So I'm gonna guess let's say if somebody had an open club face of let's say eight or nine degrees open at the top of the backstroke, I think it would reduce it by at least a third, maybe a half. And the curvature, a lot of those people, they they curve it maybe right around twenty degrees and it probably take that down to Somewhere between ten and fifteen. So probably, you know, a third a third on the rotation, the global rotation of the face, and about a third or thereabouts with the curvature as well. That's just my guess. Couldn't tell you for sure. speaker-0: From a technique standpoint, why do you think folks don't do it? Like, okay, this I understand what we're talking about. We're going this way, right? We're we're trying to take the twist out. That's the idea of the caliber, right? I got the name right. speaker-1: Yes, caliber. speaker-0: Tim right. That's the idea probably of that Allie Potter head, too. I don't think they want you twisting that thing all over the place. The Scotty Cameron putter, you know, it it you're not right, the whole in the whole idea of zero torque putters or low torque putters or whatever that category is, more or less staying like again, all of this is in the same vein, right? Square to the arc. I know that's you're measuring it probably not. speaker-1: Yeah, so this Ping Alley has a sticker on it that says straight. speaker-0: Yeah, on on the hang potters, yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, this this one says straight. Yeah. So yeah, I think that that that's the idea. Straightening it out. So so I I've noticed that modern players they generally have less curve to their stroke and they have less opening and closing. So I think it just speaker-0: But but the regular cat that that that you see putting on the green the coast of Mesa, why why why is everybody, you know I mean I I guarantee you if you go to Royal Golf Club, one of the places we play in the new nets tour, it's got a big old practice putting green. It's pretty good green too. Big, giant practice putting green. If you just watch the next ten people that get on that green and hit a thirty foot putt, they have ninety degrees of face rotation. On a thirty foot butt. Their face, the toe is pointing to the hole. Why do you think regular a lot of regular golfers do something very different than we're talking about in this show? speaker-1: Well, I think most of the time w when I see that kind of stroke, they're moving their knees, they're moving their hips, they're moving their shoulders, they're twisting their eyes. So they're not really working underneath their eyesight and they're not, you know, as vertical. You know, so golfing machine dual vertical or they're about. Yes, they get they get kind of more dual dual horizontal. They get more twisted than not. And it it feels good. If you hit a long putt, if you if you're gonna hit a you know, the the cross country putt, that feels right. It's like You're hitting the chip shot, right? So when you hit a chip shot or a pitch, you're rotating. So I think that's the reason why. It just strikes him as being a natural thing. And it is. But you know, if you if you wanna putt better, I'd say you wanna take some of that out. I but you know, that being said, guy that used to train people in here, he's in the last his last week will be next week. His dad goes over there, he looks like Gary Busey. And when he puts like that, he just twists the air. And he putts pretty good. But he's but he goes over there and he putts like cross country every day for exercise to get his ten thousand steps. Kinda like the Taylor made spider song. Is that gonna come out? speaker-0: Which has to make which has to make its appearance on this show soon. I keep threatening, but I have to I have to load it into the roadcaster. So what what's gonna be very interesting and to do a little cross promotion here, I wanna say that it's either episode eighteen or nineteen, which is a should come out in a couple of weeks, of the Brian Manzella show. I hit I was talking about, you know, lag putting long putts. And I did 150 foot because the English trends got this like 230 or 40 foot skinny putting green. So 150 foot putt, and then one like 120, and then one that was like 90, and then the next one was like fifty, and then there was like a twenty-five or something like that. And I was basically by my theory, and what I tried to do, did my bring it up in a second was just make a long a lot longer back swing and just try to make the same like kind of kill it follow through. That was my point. And if it followed through went further, it wasn't because you were trying to do it. But what the the mechanical thing that I brought up in the show was that when you don't make enough backstroke on a longer putt and you're trying to do a non-twisting Putting stroke, right? Let's just say, like we're talking about in the show. And you know subconsciously, or maybe consciously, that you you you you didn't make enough backswing and now you you you juice it in transition, you super force across the shaft. That thing yaws back and opens like crazy and then you have to make a catch up move that looks like d Gary Bucey the the the the dad. Right? I I I think that that the Y is that your basic prescription, long putts, just longer backswings and speaker-1: That's where you get this smiddle stick guy. Make this guy go farther through space. Sorry about the plastic, but he's like, get that little dingle ball to go farther on the backstroke and however far you need to on the follow-through. By the way, the the caliber golf guy, he has he has a training aid. I don't know how what I've got to check it out. He calls it the blue line. And he he's about 60, he goes, it's 6040. I'm like, what do you mean, 6040? He goes, You have 60 percent or 60. Sixty sixty percent backstroke, forty percent follow through. So he's into like the longer backstroke, creating your your energy on the backstroke, just like whacking the ball, but not like going too too far through. That's a lot of the modern putting coaches, they're they're they're like that. I mean, I do too, but it isn't like I insist on it because I've seen people putt well to go a little bit farther through. A hundred percent. speaker-0: One of the best putters I've ever seen in my life, Greg Lescher, was a sh sh relatively I wouldn't say short backswing like Johnny Miller, but like relatively short and really long follow through and he was just a brilliant putter. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. But this guy's pretty funny. So he has he has it's training he calls it the blue line. He says what did he say? It's pretty funny. Yeah, speaker-0: He's got he's gotta call it the blue line. speaker-1: z he said he says if i if you get he basically he said if if if you go fifty fifty you're gonna have your ass handed to you. speaker-0: How about that? So so so let me let me ask you this question, be the last question, and we then we wrap up today's show, which has been very fun. When Cam Smith, who's one of the best putters in the world, says I hit it on my backstring. Like he he doesn't hit it on his backstring. What does that hits it with his backstroke? Is right. What does that mean effectively, actually? speaker-1: To me, it means that he's gonna gauge how far the putt's gonna go by his backstroke. So if he's gonna make a short putt, he doesn't take it back very far and swings through, he swings. He's definitely less less through. He's he's probably 70 30, kinda real tappy. Yeah. And I've seen him putt in person. He played with Jake at the Masters this year. He's he didn't hit the ball very well, but he putted and chipped like like nobody's business. So yeah, I think he's it that's what he means. He just like if he has to get get have the longer putt you know, sixty feet he's gonna take a big giant backstroke. You know, gonna depend on that for his you know, power generation. speaker-0: And if if folks wanted to look at a stroke, we we're we're basically th this whole show's been b basically three things. One this this is a new grip. It's gotta be called the grip because that's legally the only way they can get it through, right? This super long grip that Tony Finault's putting with and somebody might have some success with it worth trying. A B Scotty Cameron's got an $800 black low torque putter, but it's a limited edition, and even if it doesn't work for you, you probably might even make some money on it if you just baby it completely when you use it. And then C All of this is because we're trying to take the twisting of the shaft out of plain twisting out of the stroke. If the folks listening go, Ben, I betcha I don't do that very well. Who would they Google to see a putting stroke that you would say, that's what I'm talking about? speaker-1: Jason Day. speaker-0: Jason Day. speaker-1: Jason Day for sure. If you want to see something super, super neutral, Jason Day, another guy that does a good job of that, crosshand is Chris Goder up. So the face isn't twisting very much with his stroke either. So, you know, I'd say Jason Day is on the higher side of that curve, but it's still, you know, modest at most. And Godterup's very square. I've got both of them i in my camera rule. speaker-0: By the way, what about that what about that popular golfer named Jake Knapp? How does he do when it comes to this? speaker-1: He's pretty he's pretty non twisty. Non twisty. speaker-0: So there's another person you can watch. speaker-1: There you go. I I I usually try to keep the eyes off him because he he he likes his privacy. speaker-0: Absolutely. Well, you know, if he wins a major next year after that hand injury. So you were saying Jake Jake likes his privacy out on tour. He's got a pretty good gallery every time I've ever been at w where he's playing. speaker-1: Yeah, he he he likes he likes the attention while he's in in the in his in the speaker-0: In the event. During the event. speaker-1: event and you know, as he's walking around and you know, people want his autograph. He'll he'll give he'll give autographs, but outside of like when he gets off the golf course, he doesn't want anybody to know who he is. Like he when he when he orders coffee at Starbucks, that's a different name. I don't wanna say what it is 'cause I don't want anybody to think of speaker-0: you know you know what I used to do when I would f first start going to restaurants where you needed to like put your name in? I would say looking for a table for two, we got a we got a two hour wait, you know? I say, okay, what's the name? Johnny Miller. speaker-1: Perfect. My guy. speaker-0: Best song in in in show business right there. The number one putting podcast in Gulf. Have a good day. speaker-1: Just biddin' facts putting is fun.