Latest / Prof James Ker-Lindsay / 006. Is Europe Too Divided to Become a Superpower?

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006. Is Europe Too Divided to Become a Superpower? · Prof James Ker-Lindsay

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: The EU and the member states need to do more to foster European identity.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: And we're in a different world today.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's worth giving some sovereignty away to a central EU level.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: But you still have a vote, by the way, because if we don't give that vote away to Brussels or to the EU, then we're going to give that piece of sovereignty to maybe China or the US because they're just going to make our decisions for us.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: You're listening to me, James Ker Lindsay.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: In each episode, my guests and I go beyond the headlines to bring you a central commentary on international relations and global affairs.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Europe has the wealth, population, and expertise to be a major global power.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: And yet, far too often it struggles to act like one.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Time and time again, we see it fail to speak with one voice on the world stage.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: So can 27 countries ever become a truly significant political actor when their voters disagree over its direction, shape, and who should be in charge.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: And what, if anything, can be done to fix these problems.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: To discuss all this, I'm delighted to be joined by Lambertus Robin from EU Made Simple to ask whether Europe can unite and play a truly global role or whether its divisions will continue to hold it back.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, hi Lambertus.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for joining me.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think probably the easiest place to start is with what I think is probably a deceptively simple question.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about the European Union wanting to build its place in the world to become a more effective actor.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: But it's very difficult for many people to understand just what the European Union really is.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a state, it's not, it's much, much more than an international organization.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Some have talked about it being a federation or confederation.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: So perhaps before we go any further, how do we how do we really describe it?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: What is the European Union and then how does it work on the world stage?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's it's a very interesting question.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: And firstly, thank you, of course, for having me.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: But um and it's a very difficult one to answer, actually.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's also a problem the European Union has, you know, because trying to explain to people what it actually is, because like you said, it's not a country, it's not really just a community either, or a free trade zone, it's more than that.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, if you take like the official definition, I would say it's a political and economic union of 27 countries who've pretty much decided in some areas it might or it does make a lot more sense to work on them together as one entity, like a sovereign state would, while some other areas to give those or have push those down completely to the member states.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe one concept that's very uh often thrown about is subsidiarity.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, not sure if your viewers might have uh listeners might not have heard about that, but it's the whole idea is that decisions are being made as closely to the people as possible, right?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that I think the European Union tries to live by that statement, so to speak, right?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: That a lot of areas like education, for example, of course the member states or even the region should control that.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: But some areas like trade, for example, if you want a favorable trade deal with a massive country like the US, might make more sense if those 27 countries work together politically, economically, et cetera.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, maybe one more concept, but the whole economic union piece is very critical.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we have these borders between countries, uh, and we want to break those down when we're trading with goods and with services.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because it makes all of us richer, right?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: And these are like some of the concepts in the European Union.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's an economic and political union of countries that decide to work together.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: And we can get into, if you want to, James, into the areas where it does work together and how it operates.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously it's a huge subject.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if we were to try and cover all the different aspects of the European Union, I mean, we'd we'd be here for days talking about it.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I I think sort of the area that I'm I'm most interested in focusing on is this idea of how the European Union can develop itself as an actor on the global stage when it doesn't necessarily fit into a neat category of a state, which is essentially where the international system has for so long been built around.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: And here is this new entity that uh wants to be a clear, you know, entity actor on that world stage, but operates in a rather different way.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: And as you said, it's it's got the 27 different members, they're very, very different sizes.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, at a small end, you've got Malta or Luxembourg, you know, and then you've got Germany, you've got France, you've got Italy, Poland, Spain at the other end of the that sort of spectrum, if you like, of the countries.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: So in as much as they work together, where do you see then that European leaders see the European Union acting on the world stage, uh, given all these constraints, given the fact that, you know, when we when we talk about the international community, we are generally talking about states, and yet here the EU is something very different.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Again, it's it's very difficult.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I mean, this is one of the biggest problems already that I see with the European Union, right?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's like Kissinger, uh, I think he said it, I don't know, 20, 30 years ago.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, was he the foreign minister for the US?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure, but it was an American who basically said, if I call Europe, who do I call?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because all of the 27 member states have a foreign minister and have a either a prime minister or a president of some sort, a head of state, right?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: So that's 27 of them.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then the EU has a foreign minister too, or the high representative of the European Union, which is Kaya Kallas at the moment.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: And we have von der Leyen too.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: So you have all of these different people who claim to be representing either their country or the European Union Union.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes the German chancellor, for example, also is representing the European Union, you know?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it's super confusing.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and there's no real answer to that, if if you ask me.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: I guess if you do look at the European Union as a whole, von der Leyen is the closest thing, I guess, we have to a Commission president or the European Union president, but she has no real power without the member states, right?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: So without the 27 leaders behind her.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, a Meritz or a Macron, etc.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, how does it act on the world stage?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it acts by consensus between all of these members.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, for people that don't know the European Union, there's something called the European Council, and this is where the 27 heads of state in the European Union sit together.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And to be honest, in my opinion, this is where the real power of the European Union sits.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the Commission, in case you've heard about that.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's also not the European Parliament.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they have power for sure, but the real power sits with the member states, with the 27 heads of state.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: And when they all agree unanimously, so all together agree on something.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: For example, sanctions on Russia, which is sometimes not even that easy, you know, but you have all 27 of them agree on something, that's when we have a unified position and all of the different entities will speak the same language, so to speak.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: But it's only when all 27 agree, and that makes it so hard.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, imagine the US when you have to have 50 states, all of them say, yes, Trump, that's great.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do it that way.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: It'd be chaos, right?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one of the biggest, biggest difficulties that we have in the European Union.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it makes us kind of beautiful too and kind of unique, but also incredibly difficult, right?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: As you can imagine, imagine, James, you've seen all of this uh uh play out too with the Ukraine war, for example, or the invasion into Ukraine.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this ties in very nicely with an interview I did very recently with um Dave Keating, who's a very respected journalist who um covers European affairs, and he was sort of saying, look, Europe can't get its act together on foreign and security policy.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's still very much beholden to the United States.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, well, this would be interesting to talk about what are these problems that exist within the European Union.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, on those first two questions, uh, the first is it's very difficult to simply define what the European Union is to most people.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's incredibly difficult.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I know this is something that, you know, you're trying to do with the channel.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: But then I think also that that other point that you've made about the complexity within the European Union uh and how important that is.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Now, he, for example, he also drew the interesting US parallel.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, you know, just imagine if the United States could only make foreign policy if every single one of its 50 governors came together once or twice a year in Washington and said, right, okay, this is what we our national policy is going to be on X, Y, or Z.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I I think, nevertheless, what are you picking up in terms of where European leaders have a vision for what they want Europe to be on the world stage?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: This is one of the key issues I keep bringing in my videos.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that issue is I don't see a clear vision from most of our leaders.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it kind of makes me happy and disappointed at the same time when a leader like Carney comes over to the European Parliament into our continent and lays out a vision, or at least some sort of a vision.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's still a bit vague, of course, but at least it's an idea that none of our politicians have put forward, or at least, you know, how European Union could work together in the world together with states like Canada, Australia, Japan, et cetera, right?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: It hurts me because I feel our politicians are not very great at doing that.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: I would have said a couple of years ago, I would have answered this question saying clearly, Macron, right?
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: Emmanuel Macron has a vision for the European Union.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: He called he talked about whether you agree with him or not, but he talked about a European army, right?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: He talked about more integration, autonomy, you know, concepts of us being able to hold our own in the world, which he was almost like a first of doing that, of that strength, because Germany traditionally has been very, very focused on the US.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: US foreign policy was pretty much German foreign policy for years.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so so if you ask me like a clear vision of a European leader, I honestly would find it very difficult to answer.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's developing.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: I do see positives.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think the the invasion into Ukraine from Russia has really shown that the EU can work together.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's been too slow.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's not been enough.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: I know all of this does count.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I think Putin was surprised at the start that we did somehow manage to find together and at least create a strategy or at least a consensus with Hungary was a bit of a hard candidate, but other than Hungary, a consensus of supporting Ukraine and that Ukraine should remain a sovereign state, et cetera.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: But if you were to ask me, does a leader in Europe have a vision for Europe in 2035?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe Sanchez mentions a couple things sometimes, but he's also pretty uh instable at the moment and has local or issues in the space in Spain.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: Stupp, maybe in Finland, has a couple of good ideas, but none of it really, if you ask me, is a look, guys, this is what the European Union should become by 2040.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I have my own ideas, of course, as you know from a channel, where we should go, but our politicians, they're very reluctant and are more of a focus on the status quo, uh, rather than really making our Union into a either a more, you know, European Union of separate states, which the far right does tend to want, or making a European Union more integrated federation that some you know Europhiles might want.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: You you'd mentioned a reluctance amongst European leaders to do this.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, what would be the sources of those that reluctance as you would see it?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and tied to that, you're quite clearly making this effort to explain the European Union.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, like you, I'd spent many years working on the EU and and and sort of trying to explain it to people.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it isn't easy.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that tends to be part of the problem.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: It it it you know, people are caught in a state-like frame of mind, and then you're trying to say this is something that isn't really a state, has certain attributes that might seem familiar, but you know, it it's not really particularly helpful to regard it as a state.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, actually, a lot of people push back on it.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's this idea that is it becoming a superstate.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: But also looking at the way that Europeans are responding to what's happening in Ukraine, um, it's not just about whether politicians can frame the European Union as a global actor.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's about are you finding what is the appetite you're finding amongst ordinary Europeans for that to happen?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's a lot of questions in there, but I think the the the appetite upon Europeans, and especially I notice this in my own friends group and uh and also here locally in Germany, everything's still very extremely national, right?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Extremely like, what does the foreign minister of Germany do, what is he doing?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: What is Friedrich Merz in Germany?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because I live in Germany, by the way, so that's why you're using these examples.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: What is what is he doing, right?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's all very national focused.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And also when you talk about identity, I have moved around Europe and the few countries around the world, so and and I feel very European.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: But I know a lot of friends and people I talk to, they feel nation state first very strongly before they might feel more European, right?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I'm I I don't like drawing on the US, but it really does hammer the point home, I feel.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: If you ask an American in Europe, you know, where am I from?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: They're from the US, right?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um before uh before they say I'm from this actual state in the or this actual um um state in the US, which makes sense, of course, because the US is a country and Europe is not.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: But nonetheless, in order for the EU to work and to have that support for it to maybe do more together, people do need to feel a lot strongly, you know, more European.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel a lot of people don't.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: I feel they feel to the nation state first, which is a key, key problem.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's also refers to your first point you made of why leaders are cautious and very careful of not to, I don't know, focus too much about integrating on an EU level because they feel it also fires the more extreme parties and extreme movements or the fringe movements in, for example, Germany.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, look at the AFD, they're extremely anti-EU, extremely anti-uh integration.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: They're more about Germany first and everything else after that, you know?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's uh that's also a key issue, or maybe I'll to summarize two key issues is this an identity problem in Europe, where it's nation before the EU, whether you like that or not.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: And the second one is that also leads to leaders just being very cautious about, you know, taking this European story forward.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is very much the sort of sense that um, you know, I I think, you know, I would share with you.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's there's often that that element of who is it that we have a really strong sense, has a European identity and has a vision for what they want to do with Europe.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and again, I mean, so much of this is also about being able to show leadership.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, we have this very, very disparate European polity.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, there are very few politicians who can work across borders in in Europe and have a wider appeal.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so to be able to sort of say, right, okay, you might be a German leader, but your appeal is not going to extend very much beyond Germany's borders.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that makes it complicated.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: But I think another thing, and I sort of wanted to ask you about, you know, if we've got this problem of where is the leadership and the vision, uh, how do you bring people on board?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think the third factor that we're trying to get our heads around very much is this sort of sense of um Europe being very disparate as this sort of political entity, and that because it's still very much focused on member states and this individual 27 countries, you know, the view of the world from Dublin is very different from the view of the world from Warsaw.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the view of the world from Vilnius is very different from, you know, the view of the world from Nicosia here in Cyprus, where I'm based.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that necessarily creates sort of complications.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how much are you finding, you know, when in these sort of conversations, how much do you think that this is also playing a part that, you know, even if we could get that leadership, even if we could get people in a broader sense to understand that Europe should be having some sort of united foreign policy and security policy, and that you're still going to have very, very different outlooks from across these different countries?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a really good question.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think I have to go back to the start of the interview when I said, look, the European Union is all about subsidiarity, right?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Making decisions that are relevant to as close to the people as possible.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, you're completely right.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like when it comes to housing or when it comes to uh culture, school, whatever, education, things like that.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the needs in Ireland will be very different from to the needs in Cyprus, for example, or in Spain or in Germany, whatever.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the EU needs to be very careful.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the EU has probably over uh gone over a boundary in some areas of doing too much where actually decisions should have been made closer to the people.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think that's something that needs to be very, very clearly enforced and communicated properly.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, look, the things that really matter to your daily life uh and uh can be sorted locally, they should be sorted locally.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Let's not put it on an EU level.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I think some things like foreign policy, and I think people are starting to understand this, is like when a bad actor invades us or or economic coercion where they hurt us via trade or et cetera, a small country like Cyprus or a small country like the Netherlands, where I'm from, they can't act alone.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: They're just gonna have to bow down and accept whatever the US or the Russia in that case or whoever says.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: So then for the interest of the people to have a stance in the world when it comes to these big topics, it actually makes sense not to do that locally.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: It makes sense to do it up on a higher level so that more, you know, more strength can be can be shown on issues like that.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's that's the key point, subsidiarity that that again is so hard to explain, which makes it difficult again for people to realize how it could work.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I'm so annoyed by you know, like all of these parties, anti-EU parties saying, oh, the EU just wants to centralize.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Centralization, uh, it's all about the European superstate.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: No, the whole concept of European Union and the whole concept of federalism, by the way, which I believe open cards, I believe the EU should go towards a model like that, is a clear definition of who does what.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Locally, countries do most of the stuff, but when it comes to things like foreign policy, no, that needs to be done centrally.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because with 450 million people, we have more to say in the world, the entire European Union, that is, than a country like, I don't know, the Netherlands with 17 million people, you know.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that's, I think, a key message we have to come across and try to explain to the people.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Foreign policy is one of those areas where I think there is a very clear case for centralization.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um but does that not create the sort of potential fuel for those anti-integrationist parties that they would turn around and say, because coming back to this point that the world looks very different from you know, from Dublin.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, the reason I use the Irish example is because it is one of four member states which is non-NATO.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: So the vast majority of EU members, uh, they're part of NATO, they're part of the Western Alliance, and yet you've got countries uh, you know, along with Malta, Cyprus, and Austria, um, that are neutral.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think Cyprus has quite significantly changed its view.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's more open to the idea of NATO membership.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's not going to happen because of a whole other range of factors, namely Turkey's veto over it.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that, you know, you do have these very, very different views across the European Union.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: There is that fear that, look, if it's centralized, will we just get steamrollered on particular issues?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: So many people in Ireland feel very committed to the idea of neutrality, rightly or wrongly.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they would then turn around and say, yeah, but if you know, if we centralize our foreign and security policy, then our voice will go out the window.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that you can replicate all across the European Union.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: The world, you know, the view of what's happening in Ukraine probably looks very different in Spain than it does from Estonia, for example.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's the difficulty.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you're you're completely right.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, um, this is something that more parties that want a more national system or Europe of nations, they often call it, would completely disagree with me on, right?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: They're saying we need power in the member states.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I I I think it's critical also to quickly explain to the audience is that at the moment, when it comes to foreign policy, every country has a veto vote.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: So at the moment, for example, if in the council or the European Council, which I explained before, where the 27 European leaders sit, if there is something on the table like sanctions on Russia, all 27 countries have to give a yes stamp before it even happens.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: So right now, that problem which you just explained, it doesn't really exist if you doesn't exist in such strength because every country can still veto.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think we should take away the veto, very clear.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's too crazy.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's that one country, it could be a small country like Orban, like Hungary, like they did in the past, could block everything in foreign policy.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think we should go to a qualified majority voting system where it's not just which is stronger than absolute majority, by the way.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: So here I think I always forget the numbers, but around 60% of people and about 65% of member states or 55%, 65, anyway, it has to be more than half of the countries representing a certain amount of people in the EU have to agree before it gets enabled or enacted upon.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, even that system, you're right.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: If one country sees things differently, they could be overruled.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that is a that is a price that is worth paying.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um and because I believe we're no longer we're we're in a different world today.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: We are in a world where it's not where it's not like international big institutions are are ensuring that things stay peaceful.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're in a world where we have a US that is getting increasingly hostile towards our continent.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: We're in a world where we have China who is just getting stronger and stronger, and you don't know what they're going to do in the future either.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: We have a Russia invading Ukraine, who might not stop there either, you know, if things are if they things go their way there.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel that with all these pressures, we cannot afford not to team up and keep our way of life, keep our standards, etc., in every other area.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's worth giving some sovereignty away to a central EU level where you still have a vote, by the way.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: You can still vote and you can still find friends among Europe to go against a Certain foreign policy decision.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Still all possible.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like your vote is completely gone.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because if we don't give that vote away to Brussels or to the EU, I should say, then we're going to give that piece of sovereignty that we give to the Brussels.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to give it away to maybe China or the US because they're just going to make our decisions for us.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of these countries, a lot of people in Europe, would rather give away a little bit of sovereignty on foreign policy, that's the only one, to a more central EU institution where they have a vote, then give it away to foreign powers that will just control our foreign policy completely.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then Germany, that's starting to happen.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're starting to talk more about European sovereignty instead of just following whatever the US decides.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's incredibly important.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the debate definitely has to shift.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: But I think then we run up into another factor which is goes back, if you like, circles back to some of the things that we sort of were talking a little bit earlier about about what is the European Union, how do you communicate uh the reality of it to people?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because one of the things that we hear time and time again is that it's out of touch, it's elitist, that uh, you know, is it truly democratic?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um And they're all right, by the way, Jim, James, they're all right.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: There is problems.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry to interrupt you, but there's massive problems that we need to solve.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, sorry, go ahead.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: No, and I I I don't don't worry.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: I have a I have a final question which is going to be putting you on the spot precisely about how we address some of these issues.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I I I think that there is this danger, um, this this problem that exists of how the EU hasn't been particularly effective in how it talks to its citizens and explains how things work.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I know the excellent work you're doing on the channel, but nevertheless, I think that this is a that this is quite clearly a problem.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how does the EU get beyond that?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I again, I mean, yeah, we can, you know, you raise this point about subsidiarity, and I think you're absolutely right.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: There are all sorts of different areas uh that we could be talking about.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: But if we're focused on this idea of the EU being an actor on the world stage, um how do we bring people along with it when there is such deep suspicion about what the European Union really is?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, there's a lot to unpack here, but I think one of my key principles really is what I feel is when people understand something, then there's also a bit more acknowledgement towards it and also maybe a bit more interest towards following what happens and what the EU does in that sense.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, the EU I think does a terrible job, and I'll be very open, it does a terrible job at explaining what it does, how it does it, and why it's important.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Very bad job.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's also why I thought I'd start the channel to explain a little bit to people.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Look, there's actually some good things that come out of it.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I think I have to go back to this identity point.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think the EU and the member states need to do more to foster European identity.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you do that?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's very difficult.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I've got some radical ideas I'm gonna throw out here.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, for example, we have a European national holiday.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like we have a European day.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Why not make that a national holiday?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because why?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because then the EU will be presented on every TV station.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, look, tomorrow's a day off, uh, it's because of the EU, et cetera.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and people start talking about the EU, right?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's that would be one idea of how we can foster a bit more um European understanding and interest in the EU because it affects people's lives that way.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: The second thing is the way currently our Commission president, Ursula von der Leining, is elected is completely wrong, in my opinion.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Again, all my opinion.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um because it's behind closed doors, it's not clear, and people don't feel like she's the European president.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: I really think, and again, this might be a bit radical, but I feel we should vote directly, Europeans, all 450 million people, and I know that creates a lot of complexities of how we would do it, but they should vote for a European president for many reasons.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Also because of the identity reason.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine the two months before the elections.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: People are talking about the European Union.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: People are talking, you know, what it does, is the importance of it.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um there might be TV debates between different candidates.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then the people that do put their vote in for Ursula von der Leyen will feel, hey, it's actually my president.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I elected her.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: And even the people that voted for someone else, they still had their voices heard for that president.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: For people that don't know, the way it currently works is that the 27 member states, they once the parliament's elected, they go uh behind closed doors and basically discuss about different candidates and they put one candidate forward and then the European Parliament has to say yes or no.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very dodgy and a bit undemocratic if you ask me how she is elected.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: I completely agree with that.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I'm muddling a lot of concepts in this answer, but I really feel things like this would start putting the EU on national TV channels.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: It will start putting the EU in discussions, politic, political discussions like we're having today.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that way it gets talked about more, creates more exposure about what the EU does, and it can also be scrutinized more and things can start changing, you know, because now at the moment it is this it does something in Brussels.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure what it does, but it's uh I'm not even sure if it's important, uh, etc.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think those are two, I've got more ideas, but those are two things that I think would help a lot in getting a more European feel, identity again here in the European Union.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think you're very right.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh that we have long seen this confusion, this disconnect.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think in the past it's been a problem, but it's now becoming a threat to Europe because uh we can see very, very clearly how this is translating into far-right populism across the European Union.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that it's no longer people sort of simply saying, well, look, the EU feels very distant from our lives.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: What we're now seeing is very, very extreme sovereigntist movements emerging.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: And how how do you see that Europe can counter this?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because um again, what we're seeing is is uh issues such as migration being politically uh used by these parties.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: And and and the reality is, in actual fact, I mean, the irony is in many of these areas that the most effective solutions are going to come from EU-wide cooperation.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: I know, I know.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: And yet you're dealing with people, sort of voters in Germany and France, saying we do not like so much immigration, we have to throw up the barriers when in actual fact, yeah, but where are you throwing up those barriers?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: Is it borders around France?
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Is it borders around Germany, or are you then starting to say, well, in actual fact, the EU needs to be far more effective in how it deals with uh all sorts of issues?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: And again, this comes back to the global stage, doesn't it, of course?
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know, a lot of the problems that we're seeing that are driving this are driven by factors that the EU could also be much more effective in dealing with, you know, conflicts in other parts of the world, uh, climate change, which is leading to a lot of a lot of problems, economic disparities, you know, the the amount of aid that are coming from advanced Western countries to various the global south has dramatically decreased.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not just the United States and what we've seen.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: We're seeing it happening across lots and lots of countries.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: And yet these are areas where greater integration.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: So how how do we get beyond these problems of trying to say to European citizens who are in favor of drawing, you know, throwing up national boundaries, to say, well, in actual fact, it's actually got to be through greater cooperation and greater integration that we can deal with many of these problems?
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh God, I wish I had the answer.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: I I would run for office, you know.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's it's a it's a very difficult question.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and and the and these extreme parties have done a way better job at presenting their arguments uh the last couple of years of how national boundaries help and would improve people's lives than, for example, the more integration parties uh or the more pro-EU parties, I should call them, would would present.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll be very honest, I don't have the answer, but I could think of some things, right?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think one thing that our leaders or our more centrist leaders are failing at or are very reluctant at is being more ambitious and just showing a little bit of uh vision again.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: We go back to the whole vision piece vision, ambition, and idea.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Ignore what the far right or even the far left is saying.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Just present the country with actual solutions and ideas of how things could work in five to ten years, etc.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: And more hope.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I call it sound like uh it sounds quite cheesy, but you know what I mean, like a bit more um of how lives will actually get better.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what that they need to focus on rather than trying to just like battle the misinformation from the far right and far left, uh, which happens in Germany, Germany quite a lot, if you ask me.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Now, how do we do that?
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think the most important thing is, and maybe I'm not sure that would go for everyone, but also just present the results.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Immigration, you mentioned earlier.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Immigration is down by a lot this this last this last year, two years.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and you can notice it already with the far right parties here in Germany.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: They're kind of there, they're still talking about immigration, don't get me wrong, but they're moving to new topics now, right?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: Now all of a sudden, support for Ukraine is the big, big, big, big thing they're targeting, right?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're noticing immigration.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, sure, we can still use it, but because numbers are down by a lot, we need new, new material, kind of thing.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I really think um I would really hammer success stories home.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the difficulty because national leaders always want to take the take all the how do you call it, the praise.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's the right word, right?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, if something goes well in Germany, it's all because of Friedrich Merz, right?
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: But migration, for example, and the part of why migration might also be down is because the EU has done something around the borders, around the European Union, right?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: More Frontex stuff, I don't know, the, the, the migrate immigration pact, et cetera.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not talked about a lot.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so again, it's I think it's also a communication piece that we have to be more ambitious in our solutions that we present and our in our answers, et cetera, which the far right does incredibly well.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: They're very good in their social media, and um, and and and and we are just not for these normal traditional parties.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, let me I know for a fact that, for example, the the A of D spends, I think it was double or triple as much as the next party in Germany on Google spends, you know, Google ads, things like that, right?
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that was during the election, not sure how the figures are now, right?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: So so that there's a lot of money in there too.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, again, as you can notice, there's there's no clear answer here for me, but I think if I had to summarize it, I would just like our leaders to be a bit bolder.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Look at look at uh Kearney in the in Canada.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: Look how much support he has, right?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: Why, why are we caving in?
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Why is the EU caving in to Trump and trade?
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: He came here and we bowed down to him saying, okay, look, we'll take your 15% tariffs.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: Here's a handshake and we're gonna invest that much in uh in the US, right?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: Economically, it makes sense.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: We need some kind of deal with the US.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: I get it.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: But just the image it gives Europeans, just the feeling, the emotion, it's wrong.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: If there, if underlein and merit stood there and saying, no, we are not going to do this, we are going to work on becoming autonomous, for example, it would be or or whatever, it would make headlines.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel that Europeans would get then a little bit of European pride rather than always just ducking down and like, okay, well, we've caved in again and um this is how it is.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very, very difficult question.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: But I think there is a lot we can do on the communication front and the standing up front, and we can learn from Carney.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: That also brings to another point when you're talking about the communication, because um one of the other problems that we're dealing with is obviously misinformation and disinformation.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, this has become a huge, huge topic.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we're seeing it playing out in all sorts of different ways that you know that there is evidence of interference in electoral processes across the European Union.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: There was a very, very interesting statement that was made in the past few days about the UK Prime Minister Andy Burnham when talking about when he came to power, he asked the intelligence services about Russian interference in the 2016 Brexit referendum, and he said it was their response was yes, there was clear interference from Moscow.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, that that's going back a decade.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: We have seen this growing and we've seen it taking place in all sorts of different places.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: So when you hear about the communications failure of the European Union, you're thinking at the same time, yeah, but there is another actor, a malign actor, which seems to be incredibly effective in how it's channeling its communications.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that it's working a lot with these sovereigntist parties.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you mentioned very clearly, you know, that the focus on immigration is is starting to decline simply because the the figures are starting to decline, but it's now been channeled very much into the war in Ukraine and trying to raise concerns amongst ordinary citizens why this is not our war, this is not something we should be concerned about.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: And again, if Europe wants to be a serious actor on the global stage, it needs to be able to sort of be able to project that, but also have this sort of developing consensus within it, which seems to be breaking down.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: How do we deal with that?
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, again, I mean, you're very much at the front line, you're running this channel that's trying to explain the EU to ordinary Europeans.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, why is it so difficult to challenge this?
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: And how, again, do you think governments, the EU, can be so much more effective in dealing with it?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: I I think I think there there's multiple way, the multiple ways of of dealing with it, but it's not easy because I mean it's happening more and more and more throughout all of Europe.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I mean, look look at just Romania two years ago.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: They canceled an entire presidential election because of Russian interference um through Georgescu, the the candidate from them.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's very, very difficult to tackle this.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it mainly happens through social media.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the EU is waking up a little bit that maybe through the Digital Services Act and the Digital Markets Act, these are true two new legislations from the EU.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: We should start, I don't know, controlling or at least monitoring these uh these social media platforms a lot.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: And now you also have the Kids Act, for example, with that's a bit different, but we're also tackling social media to some extent.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I think I think it shouldn't just be about banning and about trying to uh to remove misinformation.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Of course we should do that.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I think again, it's also telling your own story.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: And again, again, I keep going back to this whole communication piece, right?
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: We need to also tell a story that resonates with people about why foreign policy on an EU level makes sense and um uh and and and and why the EU works and why it's necessary.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it needs to be a two two-pronged approach.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: We do need to be a lot more, you know, a lot more monitoring of apps, making sure that through the DSA that we don't have all this information, and the EU is doing this too, by the way.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then of course, telling our own story.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't think you'll ever going to be able to stop all of this misinformation coming from from Russia.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: You just or or other foreign actors, I think you have to educate your population that to not not believe all of it.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: I I think the problem one's dealing with then is that, you know, again, we're running into this problem with um, you know, where you were talking earlier about subsidiarity in education, that, you know, is this this is something we've left to national competence, uh, that, you know, it states, if not, as you mentioned at the start, regions which would make decisions on this.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, there does seem to be a very, you know, an important case for digital literacy, for example, and and making sure that this is something that is fully understood across the European Union and and that different citizens are very aware of it.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: But also, I mean, you know, one another aspect could be to do with, you know, what are you finding in terms of of how Europeans have been educated about the European Union within the school systems?
• 37:53
  unknown: Yeah.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: They're not.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: That that's the issue.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I remember at school too, I was never taught about the European Union, let alone politics, very little politics.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so, you know, I I graduated from school, and I'll be very honest here, I pretty much just voted what my parents voted.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I definitely did, right?
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because they talked about a bit at home and I and I just voted that.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it's only because it really is only because of Brexit where I started informing myself about the EU.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because I was like, hmm, this doesn't seem like a good idea, right?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh like a year or two before the Brexit.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: Let me let me look into it.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I started learning about it, and I start, and that goes back to my philosophy of the channel.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: The more I learned about the EU, the more I understood it, the more I was like, this is actually pretty important and good organization or institution, right?
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: It has a lot of issues, yes, which we talked about already.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: But the idea of it and the relevance, especially today with all of these global superpowers everywhere, is higher than than than than almost almost ever, I'd say.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: So coming back to your point, yes, I think we need to start a lot earlier with our kids to really put politics, local politics, regional politics, country politics, but yes, also the European Union into the textbooks.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a very few schools do this.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I know it's hard because you know, teachers can be then um targeted for, oh, you're like kind of um supporting this party and pushing this upon my kids kind of thing, you know?
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it's difficult.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's it's absolutely critical.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: And also, James, I would like to go back to the last question because uh something did uh come up in my mind on uh on how we can battle all this disinformation, especially also when it comes to education.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: The EU currently is looking at a democracy shield, right?
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: So this is something uh they want to implement.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: And part of this is also that are setting up an institution, not an institution that's too strong, but like a department, so to speak, that monitors misinformation throughout the continent.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: And if there's some a story that comes up, you know, suddenly, they will contact and work with the member state, and then also with context within into Google and into Facebook and also into all of these big tech firms, try to control the misinformation that's going about.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: So there is things being done, which I think are good steps towards trying to well, to protect our democracy, protect the EU, et cetera.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I just wanted to highlight that.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: And oh, another big part of the democracy shield is also education, like you mentioned.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and yeah, maybe that is something we should decide on an EU level, where we're like, look, every university, preferably every high school, has at least, it could even just be a day, doesn't matter, of per year, where it's like, okay, today we're gonna teach about politics in the EU.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: How does it work?
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: How does your nation state work towards the EU?
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because another misunderstanding here is that a lot of people here I see in Germany is they're like, they believe things are decided in Brussels and they're just being pushed upon them by Brussels and that Germany, you know, that Germany didn't have a say, for example, or that there wasn't a German veto that could have stopped it, you know?
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: And the politicians love playing along with it because they're like, hey, if you're blaming Brussels, you're not blaming me, which is great, right?
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that is a big, big, big issue that we have.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: So there needs to be a lot more at universities and the high school level.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and so much of what you say, I I agree with.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: I I I've seen this up close in in various examples.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, I've seen the most extreme example of where a lot of this has uh come together to work, uh, which was Brexit and the UK leaving the European Union.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I yeah, I you know took part in the Remain campaign in 2016, and uh at the time, you know, I I was working at the LSE, I was at the European Institute, I was very sort of aware of European politics and how the European Union works.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: I've taught it for many years, uh, courses on this subject and Britain's relationship with the European Union.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um you're right, there is a lot that needs to be done.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: But to put you on the spot then, um, what would you say would be the key things that you would if you could speak to European leaders and say, look, I am engaged in trying to educate people about the European Union?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you're making it so much more difficult for people who are broadly supportive of the European Union to get that message across to people.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: What are the things that can be fixed and that European Union leaders should be focusing on to try and get uh a greater sense of coherence that then can translate into uh a more integrated position on the world stage, for example?
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so a lot of my suggestions uh that I would love the EU to take on, I think a lot of the leaders will be reluctant to implement.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just thinking of something that's maybe realistic that they would do.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think I think it goes back to maybe a point I made earlier, right?
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I I feel education is a critical piece.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, Europe Day.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: We have this Europe Day every year, and hardly anyone celebrates it.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I would maybe even talk to the leaders.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Look, I know they're probably not going to change the way they communicate about their amazing accomplishments and all that.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: They will never attribute to the EU.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: They're not going to do that.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: But maybe give Europe Day more spotlight.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, what do I mean by that?
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Make a statement about the what the EU has done over the last couple of couple of years.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that will be in the broadcasters, TV, so people will learn a little bit more, for example, or have a in schools, have European flags and have a lecture, a class.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: Look, the EU, it's Europe Day, you know, make that a yearly thing.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: Really try to make that day a little bit more out there.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a small step.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's a small step, but at least it is, it's there then, and people can see it and can can be a bit more.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: And the more it happens in the schools and the country, the more the broadcasters might go along with it, and the and the stronger the story gets.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that um, and it it it sounds very small uh when you say it to any sort of European leaders, but it was incredibly important um in terms of shifting anti EU attitudes in Britain in 2016 was that um uh people would often come up to me and say, uh Europe's got too many presidents.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it's absolutely right, you have a president of the council, you You have the rotating presidency, you have the president of the commission, you have the president of the parliament, you have the president of the central bank.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it and it it seems like a small thing, but in the eyes of ordinary citizens, it is, it was confusing.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it just made look, everyone wants to be a president.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: This is a joke, you know, and instead just changing some of those terms or just using in particular languages in ways that people are familiar with.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: And again, so it you have a speaker of the European Parliament, you have a chair of the European Council, you have a president of the European Commissioner, or a Commissioner General.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, these sort of terminologies, which then and then define who is again, it sounds small, but to ordinary people who are grappling with how the European Union works, these are things that seem to matter.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure you're encountering this all the time when you're trying to explain things.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 100%.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's I mean, I just mentioned this Europe thing because it's like literally the only thing I think we can maybe do in a short term, you know, like trying to convince these leaders, but you're 100% right.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: Look, if I was in charge, I would reform the EU, like a lot.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: And by that I mean you mention it.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: We have the council, uh, the European Council president, right?
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: Koshta.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: No one really knows uh really knows him.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, um, exactly.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: Then we have von der Leyen, the president of the commission.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: Then we have a country as president of the council of the EU.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: Then we have the president of the parliament.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's just crazy.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: We have the ECB, okay, that's a bit different.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: But we have all of these presidents, right?
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: You're completely right.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just get one and get people to vote for that person.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think that person, for my part, doesn't even have to have a whole lot of power, but just getting the people involved, I think, would do wonders, right?
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: And also with the institutions, the way we're calling them, you know, like the council of the EU, the European Parliament.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: For me, we can just simplify it.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: Make it the European Parliament, chamber one, chamber two, done.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, for example, you know, things like things like that, just so people can understand it because it's more similar to their system at home, which they probably get more than the EU.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a whole lot of simplification I think we can do.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: And um, if I think you're more ambitious too, I would love it if in the European Parliament you don't just elect local parties from at home.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: So for example, at the moment, if I were to vote in Germany, I would vote for the CDU, the SPD, the FDP, you know, these kind of parties, the typical German parties.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: But why don't we make the European Parliament properly uh European, pan-European, that's the right word.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: What do I mean by that?
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe for half the seats in the parliament, or maybe a third of the seats in the parliament, you elect people on trans trans, I keep saying transatlantic, but I don't mean that, pan-European lists, so that you can also for you know get two votes, one for your local party and one also for a European party.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: So then, you know, that also creates the whole idea, okay, these European politicians will not only represent your country, but also Europe as a whole.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's another issue we have.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: If I vote for the CDU, who then goes and sits in the European Parliament, they're more likely going to push local German issues.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: But if I were to elect also a pan-European person, that person has to try and be attractive for Europeans across the continent.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: And they're probably going to push European issues rather than just local country issues.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: So if we want a proper European Parliament, really ultimately in the long term, I would love only transnational lists, but uh not yeah, trans or pan-European lists.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_00: But in the meantime, we could split the parliament that you also vote for a pan-European politician.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're going very deep into details here, so I hope people understand what I'm talking about.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think I think it does matter enormously.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one of the things that sort of I would often find is people would say um the European Union isn't democratic because the parliament doesn't have the right to introduce legislation.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the point I would often come back to and say, well, look, you know, what you have to understand is you can't have it both ways.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: You either talk about an EU which retains the power of member states, or you talk about an democratically elected government of the member states, or you talk about a European Union which is a very centralized democracy, but then you're moved moving very firmly into the territory of superstates.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one of the problems Europe hasn't been able to get its head around is the fact that, you know, it it doesn't quite know how to counter that apparent contradiction of saying to people, the most sovereignist people, who are the ones who are saying, I am a sovereigntist because the EU isn't democratic enough.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then you just turn around and say, but if we make the EU democratic in the way that you're suggesting, it would remove the power from the member states.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: You you you you can't have it both ways.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that's so misunderstood about the EU.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: The power of the EU lies completely with the member states.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: It lies in the European Council or the Council of the EU.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's where the power lies.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: The Commission doesn't act.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: So Ursla von der Leyen's big commission, who always gets a lot of flack, it doesn't act without the strategic approval of the 27 member states.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: And because it's so, you know, people don't, people don't know about it and it's so like misty, you know, people say, oh, the EU did it.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, actually, no, it's your own leader that did it, because your leader sat in that council, the EU, or the European Council, and gave the stamp saying, yes, I approve of this.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like I really want to emphasize that.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's misunderstood.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: The powers with the member states, and if we really do, you know, want to go for a separate entity, we're nowhere, we're nowhere near there yet.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's it it is very difficult, isn't it?
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we we're trying to sort of deal with this and ex explaining.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is this really does hit home at the broad point within this conversation.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_01: And and the point is the European Union isn't acting uh as a unified entity on the world stage.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: But when you start to break it down and you start to see all these problems and the failure of European leaders to be able to, I think, articulate a clear vision and win people over.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: But in order to win people over, it's about explaining to them the benefits of Europe, what it has just what it has really done.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the things which is coming out very clearly as well is that there is a huge generational problem at stake.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that, you know, we are now uh it's been made before, but so much of that European integration was driven after the Second World War and by the very clear understanding of what happens when you have a Europe divided in on itself.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: But we're now at an we're now at an age where that is disappearing.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a you know, I'm I'm sort of late middle age, I think you were probably describing.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um, or yeah, middle to late middle-age.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um and, you know, my experience was dealing with my my grandparents who'd been alive during the war.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh for my for my kids and younger, that there isn't that link with people who who remembered it.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that that is, you know, and it's spoken about how are we track how are we tackling that and how are we sort of giving that sort of sense, especially in a world now where so many of these issues will require much greater interaction between the EU member states.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's very difficult.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it also after the the fall of the Soviet Union, right?
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, after that we had this, all of these success stories of all these new countries joining, and the EU was a big topic that was always, I guess, in the well, to some extent a big topic in the news because there were also new countries joining, and there were a lot of success stories, right?
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then and then I feel maybe it's also just a feeling, but these success stories of European Union, they're just getting less and less in between.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, you know, we talk about Schengen, we talk about single market, all of these things, but these are things that we've had for a long time now, right?
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the last big thing that really where I thought, wow, this really improved my life was probably roaming, free roaming, right?
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: Remember that you can, you know, go anywhere and use your data as as a as a citizen, right?
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: So so for me, it's always like we need, again, also, we need to communicate better, yes, but we also need things to communicate, like new achievements and new big milestones that we've hit.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: And that's also why I'm a big proponent, proponent, that's the right word, for enlargement, right?
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because I feel if we take in, as long as the country's ready, of course, I mean, we can talk as a whole topic by itself, but uh we can talk about that.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: But if we take in a new member, it also creates a new story, a new moment of European integration that's across, you know, presented across Europe and the world, you know, that we're not dead.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we've lost a member, horrible, but we're also gaining members and there's still interest in the project, et cetera.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I think these pieces or milestones that we hopefully will get soon are really important for the union's survival and communication story.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and I I think you're very right on enlargement.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it has been a decade and a half since uh the you know the last new member joined, and since then, obviously, the UK left.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the debate, obviously, in Britain now is starting to shift about um rejoining or joining, depending on you know how you want to approach it.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: But um, no, but look, this is a huge, huge topic.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there is so much um that we we could be talking about.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh and I hope that we we will be able to continue the conversation in one way or another.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh, you know, I I I deal generally with international affairs, but EU is is certainly something that I I came from, if you like, in in intellectually.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_01: It was something that I'd I'd worked on a lot.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'd worked a lot on enlargement and how the EU works.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: So um it's been absolutely brilliant talking to you.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I I hope that we'll be able to continue the conversation another time.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but thank you very, very much indeed.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you, James.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: I love love talking about topics like this, so uh hope to uh see you again soon.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening.
• 53:50
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• 53:58
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• 54:03
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• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'll put the links in the show notes below.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: Many thanks again for joining me and catch you in the next episode.