Latest / The Oldster Radio Hour / Episode 3: Ya Gotta Have Friends

Transcript

Episode 3: Ya Gotta Have Friends · The Oldster Radio Hour

0:00
[music]
0:07
SPEAKER_02: I happen to think that this is better than going to a psychiatrist.
0:12
SPEAKER_02: I agree.
0:14
SPEAKER_02: Because we can talk about anything.
0:17
SPEAKER_02: And everything.
0:18
SPEAKER_02: And we do.
0:20
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't until the last decade
0:21
SPEAKER_01: or so that people have really started having conversations about how if you invest
0:26
SPEAKER_01: in really meaningful friendships, you might live longer.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: It might stave off some cognitive decline.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: It might buoy you through kind of periods of depression and bad feelings.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: I'm
0:40
[music]
0:48
SPEAKER_00: at the Laurel Diner in Long Beach,
0:51
SPEAKER_00: New York, an institution since 1932,
0:54
SPEAKER_00: and also a place I've been coming to since I was a little girl.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: Today we're going to talk with my mom and three of her friends
1:02
SPEAKER_00: who come here every Friday for lunch.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: They have long-standing friendships and a long-standing lunch date.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: And we're going to talk to them about the value of these lifelong friendships.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: I also interviewed William J.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: Chopik, Ph.D., Associate Professor of Psychological and Brain Sciences
1:23
SPEAKER_00: in the Social Personality Area at Washington University in St. Louis.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: He co-authored a paper on evaluating associations between friendship and mental,
1:33
SPEAKER_00: physical, and cognitive health.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: Let's introduce you to my mom, Fran Fleischmann,
1:39
SPEAKER_00: and the lifelong friends she has lunch with every Friday.
1:44
SPEAKER_02: I'm Edie Rubin, I'm 86 years old,
1:49
SPEAKER_02: and all my life I long for friendships.
1:53
SPEAKER_02: Ellen and I and Fran are good friends because I know them from Temple.
1:58
SPEAKER_02: All the people in Temple are my friends, but these ladies are my special friends.
2:05
SPEAKER_02: I'm Ellen Schneeweiss.
2:08
SPEAKER_02: I'm the oldest of the group.
2:10
SPEAKER_02: I am going to be with God's help 88 years old in November.
2:17
SPEAKER_02: I adore the ladies in this group.
2:21
SPEAKER_02: They are the people that I can Confide in,
2:26
SPEAKER_02: talk to, cry to, which I have.
2:30
SPEAKER_02: And this little lunch is
2:36
SPEAKER_02: so important that there are days
2:39
SPEAKER_02: that you could do something else and you say, no, not Friday.
2:44
SPEAKER_02: You just don't do Friday.
2:46
SPEAKER_02: I'm not available.
2:48
SPEAKER_02: I can do it Monday, I can do it Thursday, whatever, but I can't do it Friday.
2:54
SPEAKER_03: So my name is Maxine Klein and I'm the baby of the group.
2:59
SPEAKER_03: What can I say about this group?
3:02
SPEAKER_03: You've heard me say it before.
3:04
SPEAKER_03: People come into your life and out of your life for different reasons
3:08
SPEAKER_03: and at different times, especially.
3:10
SPEAKER_03: This Friday, this group,
3:14
SPEAKER_03: I feel so relaxed and comfortable.
3:18
SPEAKER_03: I don't feel We don't rip people apart.
3:21
SPEAKER_03: We don't, you know, we have so many things in common.
3:24
SPEAKER_03: We talk politics.
3:25
SPEAKER_03: We talk whatever we want to talk about.
3:28
SPEAKER_03: And it makes me happy to actually look forward to being here.
3:33
SPEAKER_03: It means the world to me.
3:36
SPEAKER_02: And I am Fran Fleischman.
3:39
SPEAKER_02: I just turned 86 in July.
3:42
SPEAKER_02: And I know all these people for years.
3:46
SPEAKER_02: And they are so special to me.
3:48
SPEAKER_02: Edie and I live in the same building and we see each other frequently.
3:52
SPEAKER_02: Ellen is such a dear.
3:54
SPEAKER_02: I remember when she was pregnant with Edie during Fiddler on the Roof
4:00
SPEAKER_02: and when I became single, how she advised me about parents with our partners.
4:07
SPEAKER_02: And Maxine and I go back so many years.
4:10
SPEAKER_02: And when we took that master's program,
4:13
SPEAKER_03: we saw each other three times a week.
4:16
SPEAKER_03: No, but you taught me what jicama was.
4:18
SPEAKER_03: I don't know what jicama was.
4:20
SPEAKER_03: That's a big deal.
4:21
SPEAKER_02: Anyhow, this is a highlight of my week.
4:25
SPEAKER_02: And I look forward to being with these wonderful women who are so supportive
4:31
SPEAKER_02: and so kind and so interesting.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: So you guys meet here every Friday? Every Friday, 12
4:39
SPEAKER_02: -30. We walk through the door.
4:42
SPEAKER_03: I wasn't in the original original,
4:44
SPEAKER_03: and every once in a while I would see this lady in the beautiful,
4:49
SPEAKER_03: who's been going for lunch, wanted to join us.
4:53
SPEAKER_03: One time I was free, France, your mother, and Edie, and I just fell in love with the group.
5:00
SPEAKER_03: And so I come.
5:01
SPEAKER_02: And we liked her.
5:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We let her in. We let her in.
5:05
SPEAKER_02: We voted.
5:07
SPEAKER_03: Accepted me into the group.
5:09
SPEAKER_03: And that's how I do look forward to it.
5:12
SPEAKER_02: I happen to think that this is better than going to a psychiatrist.
5:16
SPEAKER_02: I agree.
5:18
SPEAKER_02: Because we can talk about anything.
5:21
SPEAKER_02: And everything.
5:22
SPEAKER_02: And we do.
5:24
SPEAKER_02: And we don't feel guilty about anything.
5:27
SPEAKER_02: No one has to approve or disprove just the way we are. We listen.
5:32
SPEAKER_02: To each other and offer comments,
5:36
SPEAKER_02: mostly because we've been friends
5:37
SPEAKER_02: for so long."
5:40
SPEAKER_00: What you've just heard Edie Rubin say
5:42
SPEAKER_00: about these Friday friend lunches being better than psychiatry, well,
5:48
SPEAKER_00: it actually kind of bears out.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: When I spoke with Dr.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: Chopik, he had this to say about the psychological and physical benefits
5:55
SPEAKER_00: of friendships and their ability to extend your life.
5:59
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't until the last decade
6:00
SPEAKER_01: or so that people have really started having conversations about how if you invest
6:05
SPEAKER_01: in really meaningful friendships, you might live longer.
6:07
SPEAKER_01: It might stave off some cognitive decline.
6:09
SPEAKER_01: It might buoy you through kind of periods of depression and bad feelings.
6:14
SPEAKER_01: So that particular project was part of a few different ones where we used data
6:20
SPEAKER_01: where people followed older adults for four, eight, 16 years.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: And we tried to see, hey, are the people who have better friendships, do they live longer?
6:27
SPEAKER_01: Do they... Develop Alzheimer's disease.
6:30
SPEAKER_01: Do they get diagnosed with things like cancer and kidney disease and all sorts
6:34
SPEAKER_01: of different things?
6:35
SPEAKER_01: One thing we found is that there are links between kind of having better friends
6:40
SPEAKER_01: and health and wellbeing.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: Although I will say it's not universally good.
6:44
SPEAKER_01: So one thing is that it, you know, predicts how long you live.
6:46
SPEAKER_01: So if you have better friends, you live longer,
6:49
SPEAKER_01: but then there's also this really interesting thing where,
6:51
SPEAKER_01: and we can get into this a little bit where if you have really good friends,
6:54
SPEAKER_01: you tend to drink and smoke more, which I would normally recommend that you don't.
6:59
SPEAKER_01: Basically, do, basically to have good friendships You also need to kind of take care
7:02
SPEAKER_01: of your health
7:03
SPEAKER_01: but the miraculous thing is actually you live longer despite those things and you're
7:07
SPEAKER_01: in better mental health throughout.
7:08
SPEAKER_01: It isn't a cure -all and it won't cure everything but on the whole we think
7:14
SPEAKER_01: that it's good for people.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: My mother and her friends certainly weren't thinking of these Friday lunches
7:19
SPEAKER_00: as prescriptive when they started them years and years ago
7:23
SPEAKER_00: But maybe they instinctively knew.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: So how long has this lunch been going on and how did it start?
7:30
SPEAKER_02: It started with Edie and me.
7:34
SPEAKER_02: Right.
7:35
SPEAKER_02: We met somewhere and we said, let's have lunch.
7:40
SPEAKER_02: So where do you go?
7:41
SPEAKER_02: You come here.
7:44
SPEAKER_02: And a few weeks after that, Edie brought Fran.
7:51
SPEAKER_02: Brought, and Fran brought Thank you.
7:56
SPEAKER_02: I met Fran when I joined the temple 58 years ago
8:03
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
8:08
SPEAKER_02: We were always friendly. And
8:13
SPEAKER_02: Her mother passed away, and a month later,
8:18
SPEAKER_02: my father passed away, and Fran came to the funeral.
8:23
SPEAKER_02: I never forgot that.
8:26
SPEAKER_02: She cried the whole time, but I didn't know that until after.
8:29
SPEAKER_02: She told me.
8:31
SPEAKER_02: It was very painful, but I had to be there for you.
8:35
SPEAKER_02: And I so appreciated it.
8:38
SPEAKER_02: And over the years, I remember it.
8:42
SPEAKER_02: That's important.
8:43
SPEAKER_03: Right. I beat all of them.
8:47
SPEAKER_03: I'm sorry, girls.
8:49
SPEAKER_03: All right.
8:50
SPEAKER_03: Because Fran and I went to East School together. And graduated together.
8:55
SPEAKER_03: And graduated together from fifth grade.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: What year did you graduate fifth grade?
8:59
SPEAKER_03: Do you remember? 52?
9:02
SPEAKER_03: You were 12 years old.
9:03
SPEAKER_03: No, I was 12 years old in high school.
9:08
SPEAKER_02: It was 1952 when we graduated. Maybe.
9:12
SPEAKER_02: And we wore the same dress.
9:13
SPEAKER_02: We wore the same dress.
9:14
SPEAKER_03: There were three of us that wore the same dress.
9:17
SPEAKER_03: See, Franny and I were friendly.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: Although my mom and Maxine met in grade school,
9:22
SPEAKER_00: they lost touch with each other for many years,
9:25
SPEAKER_00: then became reacquainted in the 70s when they were both divorced,
9:28
SPEAKER_00: and again in the 80s when they bumped into each other in graduate school.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: According to Dr. Chopic, it's fairly normal for friendships to cycle in this way.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: Over the course of the tapestry of your whole life, where you'll go through things,
9:42
SPEAKER_01: you'll move, you'll take on new jobs, you'll have kids, you'll have marriages.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: You'll retire, you'll be full-time workers.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: So there are different demands on your personal life that kind of, as a result,
9:54
SPEAKER_01: friendships wax and wane over time.
9:57
SPEAKER_01: Friendships are really, really interesting
9:58
SPEAKER_01: though because of course they're Relationships of choice.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: You choose to be friends with someone.
10:03
SPEAKER_01: It's not like your sister or your mom or your dad.
10:07
SPEAKER_01: And really the only thing that defines friendship is
10:09
SPEAKER_01: that you like spending time together and you do so.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: Dr.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: Chopic and I also talked about the toll it takes when friendships hit a wall or end
10:18
SPEAKER_00: and how we can revive them if they have.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: The little research that has been done is looked
10:23
SPEAKER_01: at different reasons why friends break up and kind of how people go
10:28
SPEAKER_01: about if you want to break up with your friend.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's just like drifting, not quite ghosting, but you know,
10:34
SPEAKER_01: just kind of losing dwindling contact.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes there is an event that happens that breaks the friendship
10:40
SPEAKER_01: and that's more kind of acute and obvious but you know a lot
10:43
SPEAKER_01: of times people fall out of touch a lot
10:45
SPEAKER_01: of times there's it's nobody's fault necessarily
10:47
SPEAKER_01: so that's been my friendships you know it's kind
10:50
SPEAKER_01: of nobody you know we just got busy.
10:52
SPEAKER_01: Luckily I think they're really good friendships when you reconnect
10:55
SPEAKER_01: with them there's usually no hard feelings or there's an understanding
10:59
SPEAKER_01: or a compassion that life is complicated.
11:02
SPEAKER_01: But there are barriers, and again, those are specific to friendships,
11:05
SPEAKER_01: and it's not true of dating or other relationships with your family,
11:08
SPEAKER_01: where there is research to suggest that people kind of get in their own heads
11:13
SPEAKER_01: a little bit. Like, oh my god, I haven't talked to Sari in years.
11:16
SPEAKER_01: Would it be weird if I reached out?
11:18
SPEAKER_01: Oh, it would be so cringeworthy, because last time we talked about something really heavy.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: The truth is, then they talk to that friend that you're nervous about talking to,
11:26
SPEAKER_01: and it's like, oh my god, I would love to hear from Bill.
11:29
SPEAKER_01: And it's one of the pernicious things that we're trying to Study
11:33
SPEAKER_01: and maybe get people over as like,
11:36
SPEAKER_01: people like you and they want to talk to you
11:38
SPEAKER_01: and you underestimate how much they like and want to talk to you.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: So breaking out of that is really, difficult.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: When, you know, when you're a kid, it seemed so easy and fluid and like natural.
11:48
SPEAKER_01: And then this weird thing happens when you're an adult where you get self-conscious about it.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: But the truth is maybe it's not necessary.
11:55
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, the kind of friendship's ending is this really hot topic right now,
11:58
SPEAKER_01: partially because it's kind of this ambiguous...
12:03
SPEAKER_01: no man's land where, you know,
12:05
SPEAKER_01: You can break up with a partner or like if it's not going well
12:08
SPEAKER_01: after a few dates There's kind Of clearer script for what to do. Yes.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: It's heartbreaking to tell another person I have time,
12:15
SPEAKER_01: I can spend it with you You're not exclusive I can have multiple friends
12:19
SPEAKER_01: But I don't want to spend time with you That that's That's
12:23
SPEAKER_00: That's a harder thing
12:23
SPEAKER_00: to tell somebody No there's a friendship That I've been trying to shake
12:28
SPEAKER_01: For decades
12:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah okay And, you know, subtlety doesn't appear to work,
12:35
SPEAKER_00: but I don't have the heart to say, I'm not interested, you know?
12:40
SPEAKER_00: And so there isn't really an easy language of like how to move on from a friendship
12:45
SPEAKER_00: that doesn't serve you.
12:48
SPEAKER_00: It is really tricky and you don't want to be cruel and that's really hard.
12:52
SPEAKER_00: But I've also had friendships where I assumed we were on bad terms and I I wondered,
12:59
SPEAKER_00: like, should I reach out to this person?
13:01
SPEAKER_00: And after the first few months of the pandemic,
13:05
SPEAKER_00: I made this decision to reach out to a few people who I had lost touch
13:10
SPEAKER_00: with and I wasn't really sure Whether it was possible to re-bridge.
13:15
SPEAKER_00: And I basically sent an email and said, would you like to reset?
13:19
SPEAKER_00: And that was the word I used, you know, like bowling pins.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: Should we set up the bowling pins again?
13:25
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, would you like to reset?
13:27
SPEAKER_00: And in each case, the person wanted to start over.
13:30
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, in one case, the person wanted to go back to the thing we had argued about.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: And I said, you know, I don't want to re-litigate that.
13:39
SPEAKER_00: I just want to start over.
13:41
SPEAKER_00: And they were like, yeah, that's actually a great idea.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: Let's start over.
13:45
SPEAKER_00: And it's been nice.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: And when I'm around those people now, I feel uplifted.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: I feel like the loss that I had felt before is gone.
13:55
SPEAKER_00: And when I'm around new friends or old, I get this lift.
14:00
SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to imagine that's something that you discovered also among respondents
14:04
SPEAKER_00: to the study. Yeah.
14:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, The Reset is a really great example where you gave people an out.
14:13
SPEAKER_01: You gave them an excuse to not be awkward.
14:15
SPEAKER_01: You gave them an opportunity to make it be water under the bridge or release
14:20
SPEAKER_01: that self-consciousness.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I really love the framing of that because,
14:24
SPEAKER_01: especially with the friend that wanted to relitigate stuff, you're like, no,
14:27
SPEAKER_01: what if we just started over and liked each other from the beginning?
14:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it probably prompted some self-reflection for that, right?
14:34
SPEAKER_01: Where it's like, okay, maybe I'm embellishing how big of a deal this is,
14:38
SPEAKER_01: or maybe this hurt me way more than it hurt her,
14:41
SPEAKER_01: or maybe I have to process that on my own and not re-litigate or like I don't have
14:47
SPEAKER_01: to win this fight we had 20 years ago, which requires some strength, right?
14:53
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's really, really fascinating.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: So I like that.
14:59
SPEAKER_01: But then another thing it does, and this is what we find,
15:02
SPEAKER_01: is that it communicates a type of responsiveness, and that's a really,
15:06
SPEAKER_01: really big predictor of you doing well in all sorts of relationships,
15:09
SPEAKER_01: like with your siblings and your romantic partner and your kids,
15:12
SPEAKER_01: where you reached out, you acknowledged that it had been a while,
15:16
SPEAKER_01: you basically unburdened them of the awkwardness,
15:20
SPEAKER_01: and you basically just let you enjoy each other's presence,
15:23
SPEAKER_01: which I told you is the only thing you kind of need.
15:26
SPEAKER_01: Um yeah in a way you're like sensitive to maybe their mental states and I think just
15:31
SPEAKER_01: by virtue of trying to do that perspective taking I think went a long way
15:35
SPEAKER_01: where you said okay well she's she's being compassionate she she understands
15:39
SPEAKER_01: that this request is a little odd but then the outcome is
15:42
SPEAKER_01: that we can really enjoy each other's presence again and you said
15:46
SPEAKER_01: that you you probably communicated like I'd really enjoy
15:48
SPEAKER_01: that or like you know I kind of missed the fact that we hung out together
15:51
SPEAKER_01: and It's like you disclosing some vulnerability,
15:54
SPEAKER_01: which is another good thing for relationships.
15:56
SPEAKER_01: And then I think the responsiveness helps too.
16:00
SPEAKER_01: Some people in my research field think that that's why couples stay together,
16:04
SPEAKER_01: why friends stay together.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: I perceive you as being a responsive person.
16:09
SPEAKER_01: So in a way you kind of targeted the biggest insecurities in your friendships
16:13
SPEAKER_01: and then it worked out well.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it worked out really well.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: You know, there was this feeling, uh, we lost some people to COVID early in the pandemic.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: And I thought if these friends of mine who I've been out of touch with,
16:26
SPEAKER_00: if something happened to them,
16:27
SPEAKER_00: I would feel so bad that we hadn't re-bridged the gap.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: And I'm glad that I did.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: It made it easy.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: And the thing that I thought was like, I'd love to hang out with this person,
16:39
SPEAKER_00: but I don't want to go back.
16:41
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to rehash this thing that we probably still disagree about.
16:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah. I think then that it seems really important to cultivate friendships
16:54
SPEAKER_00: to nurture friendships, especially as you get older.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: I know that in the middle of the night, in this crazy world, I sometimes worry,
17:05
SPEAKER_00: like, what if everything is terrible?
17:07
SPEAKER_00: And who can I turn to if everything falls apart?
17:11
SPEAKER_00: And I think about my friends.
17:13
SPEAKER_00: I think about the friends that I feel like I could rely on.
17:18
SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, I think that's so important for people.
17:21
SPEAKER_00: Fortunately for my mom and her friends, at least among this group,
17:26
SPEAKER_00: There haven't been any major fights or fallings out.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: Sure, there have been times when some of them were closer than others or times
17:33
SPEAKER_00: when they drifted because of things going on in their lives.
17:37
SPEAKER_00: But these women have all been friends and there for each other for decades.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: It was really great to hear them talk about the ways they've been there
17:45
SPEAKER_00: for each other over many years.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: My daughter-in-law, my oldest son's
17:50
SPEAKER_02: wife, Unfortunately, had cancer.
17:55
SPEAKER_02: She developed a cancerous growth on her leg, which was excruciatingly painful.
18:02
SPEAKER_02: The opinion of all the doctors at Emory University and her nephew,
18:06
SPEAKER_02: who's a trauma surgeon at Mayo, was that they had to remove her leg below the knee.
18:14
SPEAKER_02: I came here one day.
18:16
SPEAKER_02: Another three ladies knew.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: I had told them.
18:20
SPEAKER_02: And I came here one day and we had lunch.
18:24
SPEAKER_02: And the three of them kept
18:26
SPEAKER_02: the conversation 100% about everything else.
18:33
SPEAKER_02: They never mentioned Denise.
18:35
SPEAKER_02: They never asked me how I was doing.
18:38
SPEAKER_02: They just knew that if I wanted to talk about it, I would.
18:42
SPEAKER_02: But they were so blessed for me because they didn't.
18:47
SPEAKER_02: They waited.
18:48
SPEAKER_02: We talked politics, as Maxine said.
18:51
SPEAKER_02: We talked about the kids.
18:53
SPEAKER_02: The kids, of course, about Paige, who they all love.
18:57
SPEAKER_02: And it was, I think, one of the best Fridays ever for me.
19:04
SPEAKER_02: I wanted to say something.
19:07
SPEAKER_02: I went through a very bad year or more with my younger daughter
19:14
SPEAKER_02: and her medical situation and I still am not sure what it is.
19:19
SPEAKER_02: I know she has some autoimmune problem.
19:23
SPEAKER_02: I know she has some sinus problem.
19:26
SPEAKER_02: She's been in and out of doctors and in and out of laboratories.
19:30
SPEAKER_02: And I could speak to the three of them and know that they would be there to support me.
19:36
SPEAKER_02: And that was very important to me because I didn't want to just tell anybody
19:40
SPEAKER_02: and everybody what was going on.
19:42
SPEAKER_02: But I knew I could tell them that they wouldn't think anybody.
19:47
SPEAKER_02: So I appreciate that.
19:50
SPEAKER_02: I recently went through something that I will share here.
19:54
SPEAKER_02: My oldest son was unable to get an appropriate job in California where he lived
20:00
SPEAKER_02: with his wife and his step children and grandchildren.
20:05
SPEAKER_02: And he got a job in Florida.
20:08
SPEAKER_02: And his wife thought that she would be able to come down from California
20:12
SPEAKER_02: to Florida once a month, once every two months.
20:16
SPEAKER_02: But it didn't work out that way.
20:18
SPEAKER_02: She happens to be a kidney transplant.
20:21
SPEAKER_02: And she also has many other illnesses, problems.
20:25
SPEAKER_02: And she was not able to travel.
20:29
SPEAKER_02: So my son was away for three years.
20:31
SPEAKER_02: And for me, a lot of it was a heartbreak.
20:34
SPEAKER_02: My friends knew and they always asked me, how is David doing?
20:38
SPEAKER_02: How is Shari doing?
20:39
SPEAKER_02: What's happening?
20:41
SPEAKER_02: I said, well, he's working for Disney and that's it.
20:45
SPEAKER_02: Well, now he's back in California and my son said to me,
20:50
SPEAKER_02: He's not used to sleeping in bed with his wife,
20:53
SPEAKER_02: because for three years he slept alone.
20:55
SPEAKER_02: And my daughter-in-law said the same thing to me.
20:58
SPEAKER_02: She's not used to sleeping with her husband in bed anymore.
21:02
SPEAKER_02: I said, don't worry, Shari, you'll get used to it quickly.
21:05
SPEAKER_02: And now they're together.
21:07
SPEAKER_02: And I'm so happy.
21:11
SPEAKER_03: Clear note, and I know I mentioned it to you, that my son passed away.
21:15
SPEAKER_03: So my son passed away, and I have two children, my son and my daughter.
21:21
SPEAKER_03: So they're both from my first marriage.
21:24
SPEAKER_03: And Steven was a little different.
21:29
SPEAKER_03: It was very difficult with him.
21:31
SPEAKER_03: And as the years went on, he got more and more estranged.
21:35
SPEAKER_03: And of course, they're supposed to move out, which he did.
21:38
SPEAKER_03: But he never really cut the umbilical cord because when you need money, you know,
21:45
SPEAKER_03: I need a car payment, I need a rent payment, I need electric, you know,
21:47
SPEAKER_03: whatever it was. So...
21:50
SPEAKER_03: I enabled, I did, I did what I did.
21:53
SPEAKER_03: And you just, you just keep doing it.
21:55
SPEAKER_03: I was married through time.
21:56
SPEAKER_03: So this one said, let's, let's get him together.
22:02
SPEAKER_03: The three of us will sit down, see what bills he has, put them all together,
22:08
SPEAKER_03: pay off the bills and put them on a payment system.
22:13
SPEAKER_02: But okay so I offered it, and he turned it down
22:18
SPEAKER_02: because he had this problem offered men.
22:20
SPEAKER_03: Whatever his problem was.
22:22
SPEAKER_03: And he went further and further and farther away.
22:25
SPEAKER_03: And the next thing you hear is in New Hampshire somewhere
22:28
SPEAKER_03: and then he got sick I didn't know or heard from someone hurt
22:32
SPEAKER_03: from so on and there was no relation she even talked to her sister he didn't talk
22:36
SPEAKER_03: to anybody and the next we get a call from his girlfriend Stephen's dead
22:42
SPEAKER_03: and It just went off on me, you know, whatever.
22:48
SPEAKER_03: I can talk about it, but to some people I don't because some
22:54
SPEAKER_03: of my friends are judgmental and I don't want to hear, well,
22:58
SPEAKER_03: why didn't you reach out, why didn't you look for him, why didn't you talk to him,
23:01
SPEAKER_03: why didn't you, I had to do it, I had to do it.
23:05
SPEAKER_03: Frannie knew, I mentioned it to you.
23:09
SPEAKER_03: And I'm okay.
23:12
SPEAKER_03: You come to terms with it.
23:15
SPEAKER_03: I did everything I could,
23:17
SPEAKER_03: but it's nice to know that I could sit here and enroll.
23:23
SPEAKER_03: We're proud of you.
23:24
SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
23:26
SPEAKER_02: You handled the difficult situation very well.
23:29
SPEAKER_03: I did the best to do.
23:32
SPEAKER_02: That's all that you can do.
23:33
SPEAKER_02: A mother is a mother is a mother.
23:35
SPEAKER_02: That's correct.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: Whenever I'm on Long Island visiting my mom on a Friday,
23:39
SPEAKER_00: I try to join the standing lunch date at the Laurel Diner.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: They're great company, and when they're not faced with interview questions from me
23:47
SPEAKER_00: for the Oldster Radio Hour, they just converse and tell great stories.
23:53
SPEAKER_00: What's funny is, years ago, one of the girls who unfortunately has since passed
24:00
SPEAKER_02: away, We met at what used to be East Bay Diner.
24:04
SPEAKER_02: We had lunch,
24:06
SPEAKER_02: and Sandy and I were saying what we were doing after lunch,
24:13
SPEAKER_02: and Edie said, I'll get my book.
24:15
SPEAKER_02: She takes out her book, and at the top of the list it says, Sleep Late.
24:23
SPEAKER_02: Edie never slept late.
24:24
SPEAKER_02: Every Saturday and Sunday morning I wrote sleep late.
24:28
SPEAKER_02: I was out of bed by 7, 7.30.
24:31
SPEAKER_02: You had to put that on your list.
24:33
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
24:34
SPEAKER_02: I had to give myself permission.
24:37
SPEAKER_02: Sleeper saw Edie's list.
24:40
SPEAKER_02: Now it's possible handwriting.
24:42
SPEAKER_02: Everything you need to do.
24:45
SPEAKER_02: Get napkins!
24:47
SPEAKER_02: Watch this,
24:48
SPEAKER_02: I mean I never saw a list like this about us and that sleep late is
24:55
SPEAKER_02: so funny.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: Witnessing the consistent camaraderie at these lunches,
24:59
SPEAKER_00: I always come away feeling glad that my mother has these women in her life
25:03
SPEAKER_00: and inspired by what these friendships give them.
25:07
SPEAKER_00: I've got lots of friends from different parts of my life and a monthly book group
25:12
SPEAKER_00: that goes out for dinner, but nothing like a standing weekly lunch date my mom has
25:17
SPEAKER_00: with three of her friends.
25:19
SPEAKER_00: I've found it especially difficult to connect since the COVID-19 pandemic.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: I asked Dr. Chopik what he thought about that.
25:26
SPEAKER_00: I think that socially a lot of us haven't fully recovered from the isolation
25:33
SPEAKER_00: of the pandemic and How it affected the ways we socialize or don't with people.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: We're all so accustomed to being in our homes.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: If we meet with people or we talk on the phone or we FaceTime or we Zoom and that can help.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: But I think, I know for me, I need to physically be in the same room with people more often.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: Is that something, are you finding that people are struggling to get back
26:02
SPEAKER_00: into that mode of physically doing things with people again?
26:06
SPEAKER_01: So we've done some longitudinal studies now that we're five years out from like
26:10
SPEAKER_01: the worst of the pandemic.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: And we'll see that people did improve.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: So I'm sure you can acknowledge that like it is better than, you know,
26:18
SPEAKER_01: 2020 and 2021 where you were fully locked inside.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: There has been a recovery.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: But people have recovered at different rates.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, there are people who historically have struggled even before COVID times
26:29
SPEAKER_01: where they struggled to form relationships.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: And some of the ways that society is restructured affects our capacity to form relationships.
26:38
SPEAKER_01: I mean, technically you could go a whole week without like talking to another person.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: And that was maybe impossible 10 or 20 years ago where you could have food delivered.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: You could watch TV and media.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: For those people who work from home, like you don't necessarily have to talk to coworkers.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: Right. So I think a broader thing is like when the migration to online
27:01
SPEAKER_01: and remote stuff helped it, I mean, it helps, you know, it's safer,
27:04
SPEAKER_01: but then it also Is often more convenient.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: Like a lot of people love these remote arrangements because of the freedom
27:09
SPEAKER_01: and flexibility, but then you can acknowledge that at the same time you lose
27:13
SPEAKER_01: a few things.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: So the small interactions you have at the grocery store with a stranger,
27:18
SPEAKER_01: or when you wave someone to turn their car, you know, you know, and, um,
27:24
SPEAKER_01: or like a joke with a coworker or their coworker rolls their eyes during a meeting
27:28
SPEAKER_01: and you feel that same emotion that like all of those little tiny moments are lost.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, But also the spontaneous one, like, oh,
27:36
SPEAKER_01: we're going to go celebrate Bill's birthday in the breakout room.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: I know that sounds really lame,
27:39
SPEAKER_01: but there's a sense in which there's these broader cultural moments that only happen
27:44
SPEAKER_01: when you're physically around other people.
27:46
SPEAKER_01: So we have done studies and there are some people who prefer not face-to-face contact.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: But the truth is, like, we could use a blend of different types of things.
27:55
SPEAKER_01: It's just perhaps we've leaned a little too much on the remote and touch on interactions.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to bring back more.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: In person in my life.
28:05
SPEAKER_00: I've been a freelance person working remotely for years, but post pandemic,
28:10
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to bring that back. It's reminding me in the summer of 2023,
28:15
SPEAKER_00: I was at a hotel in California and I met a man who was involved in going up and down
28:22
SPEAKER_00: the coast of California, teaching children,
28:28
SPEAKER_00: young children, how to play together.
28:31
SPEAKER_00: Because there was a segment
28:33
SPEAKER_00: of the child population born Either right
28:38
SPEAKER_00: before the pandemic or during the pandemic,
28:41
SPEAKER_00: who were now three to five years old and had never played with other children,
28:46
SPEAKER_00: especially if they didn't have siblings.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: And he was teaching teachers how to get children to learn how to play with one another again.
28:55
SPEAKER_00: And I said to him, can you do that for adults, please?
28:58
SPEAKER_00: Because so many of us don't remember how to engage in person
29:05
SPEAKER_00: and and and play well together so um
29:08
SPEAKER_01: no yeah that strikes a chord for sure
29:10
SPEAKER_01: and yeah like I said or like within our lifetimes it used to seem so easy like
29:16
SPEAKER_01: because because really especially when you're young a lot
29:18
SPEAKER_01: of it is just like occupying
29:20
SPEAKER_01: the same space sharing toys like playing together like mini games both structured
29:25
SPEAKER_01: and unstructured sharing like A lot of these things build like empathy as well
29:29
SPEAKER_01: and like build cooperation and that's how you
29:32
SPEAKER_01: and I navigate society every day is like a gentle push and pull
29:36
SPEAKER_01: with the people around us.
29:38
SPEAKER_01: I mean in a way we won't know for a while the hit
29:41
SPEAKER_01: that the pandemic took like it might take a generation to quite see what it's like
29:46
SPEAKER_01: because in addition to say really young children I mean they struggle
29:50
SPEAKER_01: with other things too so um You know, for example, people are having fewer children.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: So you said families without siblings,
29:56
SPEAKER_01: that's more and more common just when people have fewer children.
30:01
SPEAKER_01: But I will also say like as a college professor,
30:02
SPEAKER_01: I'll see that there's this really important time like age 18 through 22 or age 14
30:07
SPEAKER_01: to 22.
30:09
SPEAKER_01: That's this really, really crucial time in people's lives where they Learn how
30:13
SPEAKER_01: to navigate professional relationships for the first time
30:16
SPEAKER_01: because they're becoming adults.
30:18
SPEAKER_01: How to navigate friendships,
30:19
SPEAKER_01: how to choose friendships instead of just going to the same high school
30:23
SPEAKER_01: and then you're friends or you're on the same sports team.
30:25
SPEAKER_01: You have to basically make friends based on shared interests and values.
30:31
SPEAKER_01: And I think that that was a really disruptive time for that age group too.
30:36
SPEAKER_01: We'll see as they keep migrating to the workforce how it changes the nature of work.
30:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah. It really affected everybody or like older adults
30:45
SPEAKER_01: who maybe are more socially isolated to begin with, like,
30:48
SPEAKER_01: and then you basically stripped a lot of potential social interaction.
30:52
SPEAKER_01: So it is really, really scary, but especially early in life,
30:55
SPEAKER_01: there's these really critical times.
30:57
SPEAKER_01: The good thing though, is that humans are a social species.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: They're fully capable of talking to each other.
31:03
SPEAKER_01: You can teach those skills.
31:04
SPEAKER_01: So I'm glad that he's going out.
31:05
SPEAKER_01: He's, he's got the traveling show where he teaches everybody.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, And I think that there is a hunger for social connection.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: So whether that's young people or young kids, we derive enjoyment from socializing.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: It can be exhausting sometimes. Don't get me wrong.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: When your social battery drains and you're at a party, it's like, you know, oh, God,
31:28
SPEAKER_00: I can't talk anymore. I can't make any more small talk.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: I can't make any more small talk.
31:33
SPEAKER_01: It's also a muscle. So you got to kind of train it. So, yeah.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: Right.
31:38
SPEAKER_00: So for young people, there are all these established ways that we meet each other.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: School is a big one or clubs and things like that.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: As we get older, there are fewer opportunities to make
31:56
SPEAKER_00: I know that for my mom, we worry about her.
32:00
SPEAKER_00: She's had COVID a number of times. Winter comes and we're like,
32:03
SPEAKER_00: do you have to go to your political action group because you might get COVID?
32:07
SPEAKER_00: But we also want her to have the social interaction and we want her to write postcards.
32:12
SPEAKER_00: But the number of opportunities becomes more and more limited the older you get.
32:20
SPEAKER_00: How do we, as we get older, do we just join groups?
32:25
SPEAKER_00: As an older person, how do you find a way to maintain old friendships and to find new ones?
32:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you have to be more deliberate about it because, yeah, I agree.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: In high school and college, you basically are thrown in to a large group of people,
32:39
SPEAKER_01: same age, oftentimes, same background, same hobbies, same interests.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: And then, yeah, this thing happens when you graduate college or you leave
32:47
SPEAKER_01: the high school years if you don't go to college.
32:48
SPEAKER_01: And that infrastructure kind of just drops off.
32:52
SPEAKER_01: And then it continues the rest of your life, unfortunately.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes if you have kids, you become friends with other children's parents.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: That's hit or miss.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: I have friends that think that that's a miserable way to meet people
33:04
SPEAKER_01: who your kids are friends with.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: But, yeah, I think being way more deliberate about it,
33:10
SPEAKER_01: the problem is and the challenge moving forward is that As a society,
33:14
SPEAKER_01: we don't have as much structure.
33:16
SPEAKER_01: There used to be structure.
33:17
SPEAKER_01: There used to be VFW halls and bingo nights and community centers and community events.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: Religion. People used to go to church and synagogue and mosque.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so basically, what is a religious gathering other than a bunch
33:32
SPEAKER_01: of like-minded people that socialize and have common goals?
33:37
SPEAKER_01: And there's a bunch of socializing that is a company.
33:39
SPEAKER_01: You know, so I grew up Catholic.
33:40
SPEAKER_01: There was always some like mixture with tiny sandwiches and punch after work.
33:46
SPEAKER_01: And people will just talk and meet people.
33:48
SPEAKER_01: And so the biggest thing is just exposure, like talking to other people.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: And the tragic thing is that there's just not as many opportunities
33:57
SPEAKER_01: and with the decline in, say, religious affiliation.
34:00
SPEAKER_01: You know, that's one thing that goes away.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: That's like a side benefit of religion that has little to do with the religion, right?
34:06
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of just the infrastructure.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: But you will see that there have been some proposed solutions.
34:12
SPEAKER_01: So people have tried to design meetup apps and things where you just get people together.
34:18
SPEAKER_01: People will often join like a community sporting thing or they'll go play like games
34:24
SPEAKER_01: or bridge or there's game nights, there's gaming communities.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: I will say the existence of those things gives me hope that there is this kind
34:32
SPEAKER_01: of silent majority of people who are really craving connection.
34:36
SPEAKER_01: It's just that there's no top-down organization where you and I have school,
34:40
SPEAKER_01: whereas there's nothing quite like that after you leave school.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: But imagine that there was, and all
34:46
SPEAKER_01: of a sudden you could just have weekly opportunities to meet new people.
34:51
SPEAKER_01: Maybe change your perspective on things or introduce you to a new hobby
34:54
SPEAKER_01: or fulfill your life in other ways.
34:57
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I view it as one of the biggest challenges in society.
34:59
SPEAKER_01: It's like, how do we get people to socialize even when they don't feel like it,
35:03
SPEAKER_01: when they're in their own head, where they assume people don't want to talk to them?
35:07
SPEAKER_01: Because we've discovered if they're willing to do it, it'll yield benefits.
35:12
SPEAKER_01: It's just getting them there.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: So what can we do to help?
35:15
SPEAKER_01: And there's a million different ways you can intervene.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: So it's trying to find the best way to do that.
35:21
SPEAKER_00: You need to be proactive.
35:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah. And get over it. They want to hear from you.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah. You need to, you know, go to the things that,
35:28
SPEAKER_00: that interest you or call up three friends and say, what do you say we get lunch?
35:34
SPEAKER_01: And then 50 years later, you have a solid friend group to go to lunch like your mom does.
35:41
SPEAKER_00: So now Brian and I are at the Broadway Lights Diner in Kingston, New York,
35:46
SPEAKER_00: our favorite local diner.
35:49
SPEAKER_00: And we're sharing The lunch we love to share here,
35:51
SPEAKER_00: which is a Greek salad with grilled chicken and fries.
35:56
SPEAKER_02: Well done.
35:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm so inspired by my mom and her friends and their standing lunch.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: It's easy to have lunch with your long-standing friends,
36:08
SPEAKER_00: including one childhood friend, if you live in your childhood town, as my mom does.
36:14
SPEAKER_00: We don't do that.
36:16
SPEAKER_00: We live far from the people we grew up with.
36:19
SPEAKER_02: We were of a generation that did actually leave our towns more
36:23
SPEAKER_00: than previous generations.
36:25
SPEAKER_00: But I did FaceTime this morning with one of my long-standing friends,
36:29
SPEAKER_00: someone I met in summer camp when I was 12. Suzanne. Yeah.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: And I do keep in touch with a lot of childhood friends.
36:37
SPEAKER_00: I get a sense of security from knowing that they're there and that if I go
36:42
SPEAKER_00: through something big, I can give them a call and it'll be as if no time has passed.
36:49
SPEAKER_02: A lot of your friends rely on you to be their memories too.
36:52
SPEAKER_00: That's true.
36:53
SPEAKER_00: I have a crazy, crazy memory and I remember more about their lives than they do.
36:59
SPEAKER_00: They often call me and they're like, what did I do that time? Yeah.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: So when we first met, you told me that you don't have a lot of close friends
37:07
SPEAKER_00: because you're an identical twin.
37:10
SPEAKER_00: What's that like?
37:11
SPEAKER_02: It's like having a built-in friend when you're born.
37:14
SPEAKER_02: You knew each other before you even were born.
37:17
SPEAKER_00: But I have met a lot of your childhood friends and they are in your life.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: And you're on a group text with them.
37:23
SPEAKER_02: That's correct. Yeah.
37:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah. And you also just went to, what, your 46th?
37:27
SPEAKER_02: 46th High School Union, which is actually wonderful.
37:32
SPEAKER_02: I was a little apprehensive.
37:34
SPEAKER_02: But when I learned that it was taking place outdoors
37:41
SPEAKER_02: on a lake with a lot of time
37:44
SPEAKER_02: and not in like a stuffy venue, I jumped on it and it was fantastic.
37:50
SPEAKER_02: And I had a lot of my friends from the neighborhood were there.
37:52
SPEAKER_02: And even though I had to, you know, they were like family, even though, you know,
37:58
SPEAKER_02: we're different in many ways, we grew up together and that makes them special to me.
38:02
SPEAKER_00: It is really nice staying in touch with people you've known for a really long time.
38:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:07
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you for joining us for Episode 3 of the Oldster Radio Hour.
38:12
SPEAKER_00: You've got to have friends.
38:16
SPEAKER_00: The Oldster Radio Hour is produced by Brian Macaluso.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: Our sponsor is Ruthann Harnish.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: We are considering taking on additional sponsors, so if you're interested,
38:26
SPEAKER_00: reach out to us at oldstermag at gmail.com.
38:29
[music]