Latest / The Smart Cookies podcast / Dispelling Stereotypes about the Vikings and Norse Mythology with dr. Mathias Nordvig
Transcript
- 32 00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:01,288 [zaza]: mathias northwick is a visiting assistant professor of nordic and arctic studies at 33 00:01:01,260 --> 00:01:01,561 [mathias]: oh 34 00:01:01,328 --> 00:01:06,156 [zaza]: the department of germanic and slavic languages and literatures at university of colorado 35 00:01:06,279 --> 00:01:06,300 [mathias]: m 36 00:01:06,417 --> 00:01:13,609 [zaza]: boulder he teaches sube on viking history northern mythology folk lore arctic culture and society 37 00:01:13,949 --> 00:01:14,050 [zaza]: and 38 00:01:14,004 --> 00:01:14,700 [mathias]: right 39 00:01:14,490 --> 00:01:19,959 [zaza]: danish language dr northwick earned his p d in northern mythology in two thousand four 40 00:01:20,060 --> 00:01:25,489 [zaza]: ten at our host university in denmark his native country he is currently writing the 41 00:01:25,529 --> 00:01:30,717 [zaza]: book myth and environment in early iceland that's going to be published with arc humanity's 42 00:01:31,058 --> 00:01:33,726 [zaza]: press do northwick welcome to our trash 43 00:01:34,801 --> 00:01:39,909 [mathias]: thank you so much a little a little amendment to that 44 00:01:39,860 --> 00:01:41,674 [zaza]: yes please is the book finished already 45 00:01:41,772 --> 00:01:43,455 [mathias]: yes exactly i actually 46 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:43,701 [zaza]: that's awesome 47 00:01:43,575 --> 00:01:43,715 [mathias]: have 48 00:01:43,901 --> 00:01:44,082 [zaza]: even 49 00:01:44,056 --> 00:01:44,356 [mathias]: finished 50 00:01:44,142 --> 00:01:44,342 [zaza]: better 51 00:01:44,396 --> 00:01:44,697 [mathias]: the book 52 00:01:45,304 --> 00:01:51,514 [zaza]: okay now i really am not lying when i say that i'm seriously mal nourished 53 00:01:51,674 --> 00:01:56,622 [zaza]: when it comes to any kind of factual knowledge of the vikings or norse 54 00:01:56,490 --> 00:01:56,510 [mathias]: m 55 00:01:57,003 --> 00:02:01,751 [zaza]: mythology for that matter i realized that this kind of an entrois quickly become becoming 56 00:02:02,272 --> 00:02:04,435 [zaza]: a little bit of a running gag on this podcast 57 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:06,600 [mathias]: yeah 58 00:02:05,257 --> 00:02:09,203 [zaza]: but to be honest my ignorance why we're having these conversations in 59 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:09,564 [mathias]: oh 60 00:02:09,243 --> 00:02:09,925 [zaza]: the first place 61 00:02:10,721 --> 00:02:10,762 [mathias]: m 62 00:02:10,806 --> 00:02:11,387 [zaza]: in any case 63 00:02:11,769 --> 00:02:11,790 [mathias]: m 64 00:02:11,968 --> 00:02:16,115 [zaza]: since we have so many things to discuss and a very limited amount of time 65 00:02:16,140 --> 00:02:16,361 [mathias]: oh 66 00:02:16,656 --> 00:02:21,204 [zaza]: i thought we might begin with an inverted and that will help us cover more 67 00:02:21,284 --> 00:02:25,291 [zaza]: ground besides that cartoonish hat with the horns 68 00:02:25,980 --> 00:02:26,790 [mathias]: yeah 69 00:02:26,172 --> 00:02:29,719 [zaza]: what do we usually get most wrong when we talk about the vikings 70 00:02:31,692 --> 00:02:35,822 [mathias]: actually the catoonish hat with the horns might not be as wrong as we think 71 00:02:36,111 --> 00:02:36,513 [zaza]: no way 72 00:02:37,445 --> 00:02:38,187 [mathias]: yeah so 73 00:02:38,490 --> 00:02:38,570 [zaza]: so 74 00:02:38,548 --> 00:02:38,788 [mathias]: maybe 75 00:02:38,771 --> 00:02:41,858 [zaza]: even that thing i got wrong that's that's unbelievable 76 00:02:41,281 --> 00:02:45,989 [mathias]: well that's that's not on you that that's that scholars that for about a century 77 00:02:46,109 --> 00:02:49,635 [mathias]: now have have been pointing out that the hat is wrong but 78 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:49,781 [zaza]: okay 79 00:02:51,298 --> 00:02:54,323 [mathias]: we do have so why vikings 80 00:02:54,031 --> 00:02:54,930 [zaza]: okay 81 00:02:54,383 --> 00:02:59,932 [mathias]: probably didn't wear helmets with horns in war we have no evidence of that but 82 00:03:00,393 --> 00:03:05,882 [mathias]: we do have these little sort of pins that seem to have been maybe they 83 00:03:06,323 --> 00:03:12,373 [mathias]: re supposed to be attached on your clothes or you know placed somewhere in a 84 00:03:12,473 --> 00:03:18,623 [mathias]: temple or something like that these ill they have these little male heads and from 85 00:03:18,703 --> 00:03:21,348 [mathias]: the head there are these horns that go out and become 86 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:21,765 [zaza]: ye 87 00:03:21,789 --> 00:03:30,784 [mathias]: raven heads on top of them and these s are usually associated with odin because 88 00:03:30,844 --> 00:03:35,752 [mathias]: actually several of them have so they were like cast with two eyes but then 89 00:03:35,792 --> 00:03:41,165 [mathias]: they scratched out one eye which you know seems to be odin um 90 00:03:41,182 --> 00:03:41,904 [zaza]: okay because he only 91 00:03:41,889 --> 00:03:41,910 [mathias]: m 92 00:03:41,944 --> 00:03:42,667 [zaza]: had one eye right 93 00:03:42,970 --> 00:03:43,510 [mathias]: yeah and 94 00:03:43,461 --> 00:03:43,664 [zaza]: okay 95 00:03:43,591 --> 00:03:49,541 [mathias]: so we can maybe theorize that the ravens coming out of his head as horns 96 00:03:49,621 --> 00:03:56,152 [mathias]: that that would be hogan and munin m so so it's not entirely wrong when 97 00:03:56,332 --> 00:04:00,539 [mathias]: when people assume that that some vikings might have had horns in their helmets so 98 00:04:00,599 --> 00:04:07,571 [mathias]: to speak but to go back to your question well i think the its mistake 99 00:04:07,611 --> 00:04:15,053 [mathias]: that we make when we talk about vikings in the popular contest it's this tendency 100 00:04:15,554 --> 00:04:23,667 [mathias]: tendency to associate first of all vikings with specific ethenicities you know the scananabian ones 101 00:04:24,509 --> 00:04:31,600 [mathias]: and also associate vikings or the people who lived in the viking age with you 102 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:39,599 [mathias]: know ultra violence those are the main main problems in our understanding of what the 103 00:04:39,660 --> 00:04:45,685 [mathias]: viking age was so a viking as as as a person in the viking age 104 00:04:46,647 --> 00:04:55,141 [mathias]: is a trader a raider a warrior and also a soldier on you know also 105 00:04:55,201 --> 00:05:00,410 [mathias]: has the potential to become a chieftain or king or something like that it's a 106 00:05:00,450 --> 00:05:08,223 [mathias]: very specific pursuit so to speak in life and the estimate is that it was 107 00:05:08,383 --> 00:05:14,133 [mathias]: only about ten per cent of the population in scandinavia who were engaged with these 108 00:05:14,754 --> 00:05:15,715 [mathias]: activities that 109 00:05:15,782 --> 00:05:15,802 [zaza]: m 110 00:05:15,795 --> 00:05:23,568 [mathias]: we associate with vikings so the rest they were farmers and just normal everyday people 111 00:05:24,089 --> 00:05:28,577 [mathias]: and not particularly invested in invading england or anything like 112 00:05:28,500 --> 00:05:29,430 [zaza]: my 113 00:05:28,617 --> 00:05:30,561 [mathias]: that yeah 114 00:05:30,653 --> 00:05:32,350 [zaza]: okay yeah 115 00:05:32,349 --> 00:05:32,489 [mathias]: yeah 116 00:05:32,450 --> 00:05:36,693 [zaza]: that's yeah definitely you shattered some of the stereotypes that 117 00:05:36,660 --> 00:05:39,570 [mathias]: yeah 118 00:05:36,753 --> 00:05:40,677 [zaza]: i had i thought yeah it was one big raiding party you know 119 00:05:40,770 --> 00:05:41,155 [mathias]: oh 120 00:05:41,117 --> 00:05:42,338 [zaza]: without the horns but still 121 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,366 [mathias]: just all all these scaninavians is constantly on boats everywhere 122 00:05:47,183 --> 00:05:47,724 [zaza]: exactly 123 00:05:48,389 --> 00:05:52,496 [mathias]: but that's another thing that that's really important to also keep in mind what we 124 00:05:52,556 --> 00:05:59,065 [mathias]: see in the viking age and scanning v and what we can see from genetic 125 00:05:59,165 --> 00:06:03,532 [mathias]: the genetic makeup of the skeletons that we can identify as for insist warriors from 126 00:06:03,572 --> 00:06:07,559 [mathias]: the time they come from a lot of different places they're not just from denmark 127 00:06:07,619 --> 00:06:13,489 [mathias]: sweden norway they are also from poland and from germany and from spain and and 128 00:06:13,549 --> 00:06:19,459 [mathias]: so on there's there's it is in fact in the viking age that scandinavians start 129 00:06:20,260 --> 00:06:26,691 [mathias]: genetic sense to mix more with the rest of europe so again you know the 130 00:06:26,831 --> 00:06:32,900 [mathias]: image of the blond viking should be shattered too because king might have had you 131 00:06:32,961 --> 00:06:34,042 [mathias]: know darker hair 132 00:06:34,470 --> 00:06:34,490 [zaza]: m 133 00:06:34,902 --> 00:06:41,629 [mathias]: brown even black hair so so that's that's also important to keep in mind 134 00:06:42,492 --> 00:06:44,605 [zaza]: but there was like a culture that united them 135 00:06:45,270 --> 00:06:45,470 [mathias]: yes 136 00:06:45,690 --> 00:06:45,852 [zaza]: right 137 00:06:45,750 --> 00:06:46,592 [mathias]: exactly yea 138 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:46,763 [zaza]: okay 139 00:06:47,333 --> 00:06:51,821 [mathias]: and the concept of viking was very present you see this in the carved round 140 00:06:51,881 --> 00:06:57,750 [mathias]: stones where you know they commemorate dead warriors they talk about this person a viking 141 00:06:58,492 --> 00:07:02,538 [mathias]: and this person went a viking so you could both be a viking and you 142 00:07:02,598 --> 00:07:07,066 [mathias]: could go a viking so to speak and of course the two things combined if 143 00:07:07,106 --> 00:07:13,236 [mathias]: you're going a viking which i guess would be sort of the term that collects 144 00:07:13,477 --> 00:07:21,149 [mathias]: both ideas of raiding distant shores and also peaceful trade and interaction of various kinds 145 00:07:21,958 --> 00:07:27,430 [mathias]: um you could you could go and do that and then of course if you 146 00:07:27,491 --> 00:07:30,298 [mathias]: went at that then you would also be considered a viking right 147 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:36,907 [zaza]: m how is the so called viking society organized and structured who was at the 148 00:07:36,967 --> 00:07:38,529 [zaza]: top who was at the bottom 149 00:07:39,180 --> 00:07:39,647 [mathias]: oh 150 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:39,985 [zaza]: roughly speaking 151 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:48,372 [mathias]: so honestly we don't know much about that we know something we can see from 152 00:07:48,533 --> 00:07:55,865 [mathias]: archaeological records that there is of course a strad fid society there are very wealthy 153 00:07:55,965 --> 00:08:01,494 [mathias]: people and they are very poor people there are people who seem to have a 154 00:08:01,574 --> 00:08:08,287 [mathias]: lot of freedom without necessarily being at the the highest type of society and then 155 00:08:08,327 --> 00:08:10,451 [mathias]: there are of course people who don't have any freedom 156 00:08:10,299 --> 00:08:10,320 [zaza]: m 157 00:08:10,532 --> 00:08:11,874 [mathias]: at all and are slaves 158 00:08:15,180 --> 00:08:20,670 [mathias]: and then we of course have all the saga literature and the material that has 159 00:08:20,690 --> 00:08:27,361 [mathias]: been written after the viking age describing society in the viking age and we can 160 00:08:27,581 --> 00:08:33,751 [mathias]: only trust that to an extent obviously because the sagas there written down at the 161 00:08:33,831 --> 00:08:40,302 [mathias]: earliest like two hundred years after the viking age so it's essentially ice slanders primarily 162 00:08:40,683 --> 00:08:49,257 [mathias]: writing about their ancestors and they they tell us about a really like steep hirarkhy 163 00:08:49,598 --> 00:08:54,955 [mathias]: very stratified to it where you have kings at the top and then you have 164 00:08:56,197 --> 00:09:00,344 [mathias]: what would compare to knights and and then you 165 00:09:00,420 --> 00:09:00,702 [zaza]: oh 166 00:09:00,464 --> 00:09:08,898 [mathias]: have different kinds of peasants and you know different levels of peasants after that free 167 00:09:08,978 --> 00:09:14,788 [mathias]: persons and tenant persons and such now whether or not that is entirely the case 168 00:09:15,188 --> 00:09:21,098 [mathias]: throughout the vice age and if that is also applicable to all of scandinavia that's 169 00:09:21,138 --> 00:09:21,860 [mathias]: a good question 170 00:09:22,290 --> 00:09:22,594 [zaza]: yeah 171 00:09:22,781 --> 00:09:29,012 [mathias]: because if we look at the archeological material southern scandinavia you have steeper 172 00:09:29,340 --> 00:09:29,605 [zaza]: oh 173 00:09:29,352 --> 00:09:36,304 [mathias]: hirer keys than the northern parts of scandinavia that has something to do with population 174 00:09:36,384 --> 00:09:42,974 [mathias]: density and i and of course also choices in terms of like what type of 175 00:09:43,034 --> 00:09:48,764 [mathias]: society are we creating so you could expect for instance denmark to probably have what 176 00:09:48,824 --> 00:09:54,034 [mathias]: is more or less a fully fletqoteunquote europe he and style kingdom already from the 177 00:09:54,114 --> 00:09:54,736 [mathias]: seven hundreds 178 00:09:55,170 --> 00:09:55,572 [zaza]: also like 179 00:09:55,497 --> 00:09:55,738 [mathias]: where 180 00:09:55,632 --> 00:09:56,817 [zaza]: a feudalist society 181 00:09:57,470 --> 00:10:02,018 [mathias]: more or less i don't want to call it feutalist as such 182 00:10:02,126 --> 00:10:02,167 [zaza]: a 183 00:10:02,539 --> 00:10:09,430 [mathias]: at that point because feudalism is sort of developing in scandinavia in this tim period 184 00:10:10,312 --> 00:10:15,921 [mathias]: we can see aspects of feudalism but obviously it's probably like structured a little differently 185 00:10:15,981 --> 00:10:22,212 [mathias]: than what for instance is the case in the frankish empire we see stone hunting 186 00:10:22,292 --> 00:10:26,619 [mathias]: parks being established in the seven hundreds in scandinavia so this means that there is 187 00:10:26,639 --> 00:10:32,649 [mathias]: an elite that monopolizes hunting for their pleasure alone and 188 00:10:32,580 --> 00:10:32,680 [zaza]: yeah 189 00:10:32,729 --> 00:10:32,849 [mathias]: that 190 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:33,202 [zaza]: sounds very 191 00:10:33,232 --> 00:10:33,454 [mathias]: very 192 00:10:33,362 --> 00:10:34,105 [zaza]: royal already 193 00:10:34,550 --> 00:10:40,099 [mathias]: exactly that's a very futile phenomenon right but on the other hand it also looks 194 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:45,729 [mathias]: when we look at the way that the farms are placed and the land that 195 00:10:46,490 --> 00:10:52,595 [mathias]: each farm has available and so on um that that is very different depending on 196 00:10:52,655 --> 00:10:58,144 [mathias]: whether or not we in southern scandinavia or in central or northern scandinavia and it 197 00:10:58,164 --> 00:11:03,435 [mathias]: looks like in central and northern scandinavia like most of norway for instance and most 198 00:11:03,495 --> 00:11:10,588 [mathias]: of sweden people were freer than than in the in the southern parts like again 199 00:11:10,628 --> 00:11:17,019 [mathias]: i say free with quotation marks here because we don't actually know what free actually 200 00:11:17,119 --> 00:11:22,608 [mathias]: tray elates two in a viking age setting um and adding to this we 201 00:11:22,650 --> 00:11:24,150 [zaza]: yeah 202 00:11:22,689 --> 00:11:30,582 [mathias]: have of course the poem called rex tula wandering or the song of usually it's 203 00:11:30,622 --> 00:11:38,034 [mathias]: translated to rags wandering like wandering around because that's what he does and rake is 204 00:11:38,395 --> 00:11:44,904 [mathias]: possibly a guard of some kind might be uhamdotlar or the hat really depends on 205 00:11:44,944 --> 00:11:52,354 [mathias]: the scholar that you talk to and this poem sets up a class structure with 206 00:11:52,675 --> 00:11:59,827 [mathias]: slaves and then free peasants and then elite and tells us basically that rage is 207 00:12:00,908 --> 00:12:08,261 [mathias]: responsible are creating those classes in society now the problem with the poem me a 208 00:12:08,321 --> 00:12:11,426 [mathias]: lot of scholars use that poem to sort of understand 209 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:11,246 [zaza]: yes 210 00:12:11,927 --> 00:12:15,653 [mathias]: class structures in the viking age but the problem with this poem is that it's 211 00:12:15,673 --> 00:12:22,325 [mathias]: composed in the thirteen hundreds it could very well describe more of a situation in 212 00:12:22,365 --> 00:12:27,713 [mathias]: the twelve and thirteen hundred ten and so in the viking age um but what 213 00:12:27,794 --> 00:12:32,942 [mathias]: stands to reason is of course that we do have societies with elite classes that 214 00:12:32,982 --> 00:12:43,862 [mathias]: are very wealthy compared to other parts of society and those elite classes have some 215 00:12:44,002 --> 00:12:47,818 [mathias]: power to decide what happens to the rest of the population that's for sure 216 00:12:48,930 --> 00:12:55,074 [zaza]: ye what was the status of the slaves and where did they usually come from 217 00:12:55,474 --> 00:13:02,422 [zaza]: were they the product of these raiding parties and or is there another situation 218 00:13:02,344 --> 00:13:02,485 [mathias]: um 219 00:13:02,522 --> 00:13:03,045 [zaza]: that that 220 00:13:03,129 --> 00:13:03,575 [mathias]: m oh 221 00:13:04,541 --> 00:13:04,804 [zaza]: i turned 222 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:04,861 [mathias]: so 223 00:13:04,845 --> 00:13:05,452 [zaza]: them into slaves 224 00:13:06,361 --> 00:13:09,400 [mathias]: we can we can presoom from 225 00:13:10,651 --> 00:13:10,893 [zaza]: okay 226 00:13:11,383 --> 00:13:15,711 [mathias]: from what we know of slavery in europe in general like the history of slavery 227 00:13:16,352 --> 00:13:24,221 [mathias]: that the slaves came from many different situations so to speak predominantly what probably drives 228 00:13:24,341 --> 00:13:29,089 [mathias]: economy in the viking age from the late seven hundred and as is a slaving 229 00:13:28,770 --> 00:13:30,450 [zaza]: yeah 230 00:13:29,230 --> 00:13:30,632 [mathias]: economy we 231 00:13:30,630 --> 00:13:30,813 [zaza]: yeah 232 00:13:30,732 --> 00:13:36,320 [mathias]: have a situation where scandinavians take slaves in western europe then they transport them 233 00:13:36,330 --> 00:13:36,718 [zaza]: oh 234 00:13:36,421 --> 00:13:41,765 [mathias]: through eastern europe and and sell them in market in eastern europe maybe even as 235 00:13:41,825 --> 00:13:48,452 [mathias]: far as as the califatein back dad and you know in the middle east um 236 00:13:49,814 --> 00:13:55,191 [mathias]: so so there's a lot of wealth that's being generated through slavery which tells us 237 00:13:55,251 --> 00:14:02,423 [mathias]: to them that slay slavery must have been a very big part of society now 238 00:14:06,169 --> 00:14:10,716 [mathias]: there's eno situation that could create a slave to that we know from medieval europe 239 00:14:10,756 --> 00:14:13,641 [mathias]: in general you know you go into debt and 240 00:14:13,795 --> 00:14:14,490 [zaza]: hm 241 00:14:13,942 --> 00:14:14,883 [mathias]: you don't have any way to 242 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:15,262 [zaza]: classic 243 00:14:14,943 --> 00:14:15,384 [mathias]: paid off 244 00:14:15,746 --> 00:14:17,520 [zaza]: yeah 245 00:14:16,025 --> 00:14:21,353 [mathias]: yes and then you become a slave for pay at um and then there are 246 00:14:21,494 --> 00:14:27,796 [mathias]: you know other ways of not being free i mentioned tenant peasants before 247 00:14:28,180 --> 00:14:28,542 [zaza]: is that like 248 00:14:28,498 --> 00:14:28,618 [mathias]: so 249 00:14:28,562 --> 00:14:28,905 [zaza]: a surf 250 00:14:30,143 --> 00:14:31,608 [mathias]: yeah that's 251 00:14:31,410 --> 00:14:32,957 [zaza]: tie to the land sort 252 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:33,100 [mathias]: yeah 253 00:14:33,017 --> 00:14:33,077 [zaza]: of 254 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,327 [mathias]: that's that's what it becomes at least right so it's a person who does not 255 00:14:37,608 --> 00:14:42,356 [mathias]: own their own land and so they're beholding to the lord of the land and 256 00:14:43,497 --> 00:14:50,410 [mathias]: the trade off of ving on the lord's land is for instance to to work 257 00:14:50,490 --> 00:14:58,484 [mathias]: for them in their fields and also to to essentially do whatever they're asked right 258 00:14:58,584 --> 00:15:01,589 [mathias]: so so that's not a particularly free situation but 259 00:15:01,950 --> 00:15:02,195 [zaza]: yeah 260 00:15:02,250 --> 00:15:05,395 [mathias]: on the other hand it looks like as a tenant peasant you could decide to 261 00:15:05,495 --> 00:15:12,928 [mathias]: leave so that's that's at least you know a portion of freedom and we also 262 00:15:13,188 --> 00:15:20,140 [mathias]: archuologically can see there are locations in scandinavia where well it kind of looks like 263 00:15:21,061 --> 00:15:30,177 [mathias]: they have had slave colonies and i sort of like a situation with like little 264 00:15:30,237 --> 00:15:38,731 [mathias]: slave huts and then overseer hut that could keep them in line and always keep 265 00:15:38,851 --> 00:15:44,160 [mathias]: watch over them and then these slaves they would work as like literally sort of 266 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,385 [mathias]: like a charabean plantation style slavery where 267 00:15:47,371 --> 00:15:47,432 [zaza]: hm 268 00:15:47,445 --> 00:15:48,487 [mathias]: they would they would work 269 00:15:48,399 --> 00:15:48,420 [zaza]: m 270 00:15:48,687 --> 00:15:54,944 [mathias]: the fields and such um so it was it was a very very important institution 271 00:15:55,004 --> 00:15:56,368 [mathias]: for the viking age that's for sure 272 00:15:57,540 --> 00:15:58,560 [zaza]: oh 273 00:15:57,750 --> 00:16:01,035 [mathias]: and we see just 274 00:16:01,170 --> 00:16:01,372 [zaza]: yeah 275 00:16:01,536 --> 00:16:02,337 [mathias]: to attach something to 276 00:16:02,670 --> 00:16:02,690 [zaza]: m 277 00:16:03,059 --> 00:16:06,685 [mathias]: the question of like where do they come from we see 278 00:16:06,510 --> 00:16:06,712 [zaza]: yes 279 00:16:07,807 --> 00:16:09,549 [mathias]: a couple of slaves 280 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:10,501 [zaza]: yeah 281 00:16:10,391 --> 00:16:12,815 [mathias]: or former slaves who have carved round stones 282 00:16:13,020 --> 00:16:13,267 [zaza]: oh 283 00:16:13,095 --> 00:16:17,443 [mathias]: in in scandinavia and frinton mentioned that 284 00:16:18,180 --> 00:16:18,402 [zaza]: oh 285 00:16:18,605 --> 00:16:24,615 [mathias]: there the person who used to own them gave them their freedom and then also 286 00:16:24,795 --> 00:16:31,306 [mathias]: gave them some gold so that they could get set up as a person and 287 00:16:32,087 --> 00:16:36,214 [mathias]: in at least one case at like the person who carved such a room stone 288 00:16:36,434 --> 00:16:37,897 [mathias]: had a german name so 289 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:38,842 [zaza]: oh 290 00:16:38,798 --> 00:16:42,785 [mathias]: that was in denmark so so that's a that's the situation probably 291 00:16:42,540 --> 00:16:42,720 [zaza]: oh 292 00:16:42,825 --> 00:16:46,331 [mathias]: where somebody from presumably like the 293 00:16:46,409 --> 00:16:46,589 [zaza]: yes 294 00:16:46,451 --> 00:16:50,197 [mathias]: saxon area was captured and then 295 00:16:50,550 --> 00:16:51,270 [zaza]: oh 296 00:16:50,858 --> 00:16:55,065 [mathias]: enslaved for a while and then became free and then he actually became a viking 297 00:16:55,146 --> 00:16:55,466 [mathias]: after that 298 00:16:56,110 --> 00:16:57,091 [zaza]: oh wow okay 299 00:16:57,069 --> 00:16:57,229 [mathias]: yeah 300 00:16:57,211 --> 00:16:58,372 [zaza]: so there was some 301 00:16:58,470 --> 00:16:58,671 [mathias]: oh 302 00:16:58,532 --> 00:17:00,615 [zaza]: upward social mobility even if 303 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:00,761 [mathias]: some 304 00:17:00,655 --> 00:17:01,135 [zaza]: you were a slave 305 00:17:00,982 --> 00:17:01,405 [mathias]: some yeah 306 00:17:01,236 --> 00:17:02,417 [zaza]: like an ancient rome you could 307 00:17:03,020 --> 00:17:03,202 [mathias]: yes 308 00:17:03,138 --> 00:17:03,718 [zaza]: you could get free 309 00:17:04,300 --> 00:17:05,001 [mathias]: yes exactly 310 00:17:05,104 --> 00:17:05,490 [zaza]: interesting 311 00:17:05,762 --> 00:17:10,730 [mathias]: you know i see it's really the introduction of christianity that that makes social mobility 312 00:17:10,851 --> 00:17:11,953 [mathias]: harder in the 313 00:17:11,985 --> 00:17:12,025 [zaza]: m 314 00:17:12,013 --> 00:17:13,134 [mathias]: fugal system because 315 00:17:12,939 --> 00:17:12,960 [zaza]: m 316 00:17:13,756 --> 00:17:15,699 [mathias]: all of a sudden you have a situation where 317 00:17:15,330 --> 00:17:15,471 [zaza]: yeah 318 00:17:16,220 --> 00:17:17,023 [mathias]: the legitimacy 319 00:17:16,792 --> 00:17:17,040 [zaza]: yes 320 00:17:17,465 --> 00:17:17,946 [mathias]: of rule 321 00:17:17,910 --> 00:17:18,900 [zaza]: oh 322 00:17:18,207 --> 00:17:24,614 [mathias]: comes from god right so the the lord who owns the land all of a 323 00:17:24,655 --> 00:17:29,463 [mathias]: sudden owns the land because he was put there by god right and that means 324 00:17:29,523 --> 00:17:34,872 [mathias]: everybody else in that social hierarchy are put there by god and that means that 325 00:17:34,932 --> 00:17:39,700 [mathias]: if you're you know the assumption is that god has created natural law and all 326 00:17:39,780 --> 00:17:44,207 [mathias]: that stuff then of course you can't break that by by not being a slave 327 00:17:44,247 --> 00:17:44,948 [mathias]: any more right 328 00:17:45,360 --> 00:17:46,200 [zaza]: oh 329 00:17:46,292 --> 00:17:47,596 [mathias]: so that was 330 00:17:47,563 --> 00:17:47,644 [zaza]: um 331 00:17:47,656 --> 00:17:48,719 [mathias]: another situation that 332 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:48,960 [zaza]: yeah 333 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:49,442 [mathias]: was introduced 334 00:17:50,864 --> 00:17:57,316 [zaza]: um you said that there were stark differences between for example north and south of 335 00:17:57,376 --> 00:17:58,658 [zaza]: canada and scandinavia 336 00:17:59,546 --> 00:18:00,120 [mathias]: hm 337 00:18:00,381 --> 00:18:06,231 [zaza]: how are these societies organized was it like little kingdoms or clans or some sort 338 00:18:06,291 --> 00:18:09,877 [zaza]: of a proto state or how did it all function and were they 339 00:18:09,913 --> 00:18:10,036 [mathias]: ah 340 00:18:09,917 --> 00:18:10,999 [zaza]: in conflict with each other 341 00:18:11,992 --> 00:18:15,165 [mathias]: they were definitely in conflict with each other we 342 00:18:15,170 --> 00:18:16,356 [zaza]: nothing new there then okay 343 00:18:16,550 --> 00:18:21,938 [mathias]: no no not at all we have a lot of evidence of conflict you know 344 00:18:21,910 --> 00:18:22,411 [zaza]: because you always 345 00:18:22,238 --> 00:18:22,539 [mathias]: between 346 00:18:22,431 --> 00:18:24,033 [zaza]: think about vikings as this like 347 00:18:24,065 --> 00:18:24,105 [mathias]: m 348 00:18:24,634 --> 00:18:25,175 [zaza]: unified 349 00:18:25,059 --> 00:18:25,080 [mathias]: m 350 00:18:25,355 --> 00:18:27,058 [zaza]: force that goes elsewhere 351 00:18:27,721 --> 00:18:27,963 [mathias]: yes 352 00:18:27,739 --> 00:18:29,743 [zaza]: and and does their viking stuff and 353 00:18:29,730 --> 00:18:30,510 [mathias]: yeah 354 00:18:29,783 --> 00:18:33,229 [zaza]: then comes back to their viking home and they're just like party 355 00:18:33,289 --> 00:18:33,511 [mathias]: right 356 00:18:33,449 --> 00:18:33,729 [zaza]: you know 357 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:34,600 [mathias]: yes 358 00:18:34,534 --> 00:18:34,715 [zaza]: um 359 00:18:34,860 --> 00:18:34,941 [mathias]: no 360 00:18:35,117 --> 00:18:35,540 [zaza]: in very 361 00:18:35,461 --> 00:18:35,542 [mathias]: no 362 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:36,465 [zaza]: simplistic terms 363 00:18:37,325 --> 00:18:39,729 [mathias]: they very much did the viking stuff at home as well 364 00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:40,322 [zaza]: okay 365 00:18:42,153 --> 00:18:45,158 [mathias]: and that's also something that's interesting to see when 366 00:18:45,390 --> 00:18:46,110 [zaza]: oh 367 00:18:46,019 --> 00:18:46,820 [mathias]: skinning beans 368 00:18:46,711 --> 00:18:46,812 [zaza]: what 369 00:18:47,341 --> 00:18:54,673 [mathias]: migrate to the english area and you have a pretty big population of scandinavians in 370 00:18:55,375 --> 00:19:02,867 [mathias]: north eastern england scandinavians they're settled and then all of a sudden we see new 371 00:19:02,947 --> 00:19:07,034 [mathias]: scandinavians showing up from from different parts of the scandanavie raiding them and so on 372 00:19:07,595 --> 00:19:11,682 [mathias]: and and they're pissed off by that like they being attacked all of a sudden 373 00:19:11,742 --> 00:19:11,882 [mathias]: by 374 00:19:11,940 --> 00:19:12,204 [zaza]: oh 375 00:19:12,183 --> 00:19:14,567 [mathias]: by people from from their own homelands 376 00:19:15,180 --> 00:19:15,482 [zaza]: yes 377 00:19:15,348 --> 00:19:18,693 [mathias]: so so there wasn't like this unified we're 378 00:19:18,311 --> 00:19:18,713 [zaza]: so like hey 379 00:19:18,774 --> 00:19:18,914 [mathias]: all 380 00:19:18,814 --> 00:19:19,055 [zaza]: guys 381 00:19:18,974 --> 00:19:19,234 [mathias]: from the 382 00:19:19,277 --> 00:19:19,297 [zaza]: i 383 00:19:19,294 --> 00:19:19,455 [mathias]: same 384 00:19:19,337 --> 00:19:19,518 [zaza]: thought 385 00:19:19,515 --> 00:19:19,755 [mathias]: place 386 00:19:19,558 --> 00:19:20,645 [zaza]: we ere together what's happening 387 00:19:21,158 --> 00:19:22,620 [mathias]: exactly but 388 00:19:22,989 --> 00:19:23,010 [zaza]: m 389 00:19:23,543 --> 00:19:33,267 [mathias]: to go back to this question like structures of of states or polities so the 390 00:19:33,327 --> 00:19:36,913 [mathias]: first thing i want to say is that we should not call them countries in 391 00:19:36,953 --> 00:19:43,925 [mathias]: the sense that no countries today we don't find and we can't expect to find 392 00:19:44,806 --> 00:19:50,376 [mathias]: a unified idea of what it means to be in the danish kingdom or in 393 00:19:50,436 --> 00:19:54,623 [mathias]: the norwegian kingdom at the time and this we i see very clearly expressed in 394 00:19:54,683 --> 00:20:02,106 [mathias]: the literature that we have available now to take norway as an example the the 395 00:20:02,466 --> 00:20:11,421 [mathias]: literary history of how norway becomes norway is that harold fine hair who sits in 396 00:20:11,461 --> 00:20:17,010 [mathias]: the western parts of norway in his little chieftains or whatever you want to call 397 00:20:17,091 --> 00:20:25,244 [mathias]: it an so he then goes out and conquers the other regions of norway or 398 00:20:25,525 --> 00:20:33,818 [mathias]: in other ways set up alliances with the chieftains over those regions and then you 399 00:20:33,859 --> 00:20:39,989 [mathias]: know literary history tells us that at the end of this process he was king 400 00:20:40,069 --> 00:20:47,665 [mathias]: of all norway now that's probably a stretch a big stretch honestly if we look 401 00:20:47,745 --> 00:20:56,331 [mathias]: at the even the modern norwegian municipality names we can see that they seem to 402 00:20:56,512 --> 00:21:04,205 [mathias]: mirror tribal names so horgaland for instance that's the land of the hara a tribe 403 00:21:04,285 --> 00:21:06,669 [mathias]: that lived there and 404 00:21:10,816 --> 00:21:18,188 [mathias]: trendelag is the land of the law region actually of the trinder another tribal name 405 00:21:19,109 --> 00:21:24,699 [mathias]: and we have that across scandinavia my homeland also has like we have jutland for 406 00:21:24,759 --> 00:21:30,088 [mathias]: instance that's that's the jutes south up there we have the we have anglia that's 407 00:21:30,128 --> 00:21:37,039 [mathias]: the angles and we have the danes over on the islands and originally also in 408 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:42,909 [mathias]: southern sweden and that that's that's definitely tribal differences and some of that is still 409 00:21:42,989 --> 00:21:46,615 [mathias]: present to this day and you know like when i when i go to copenhagen 410 00:21:46,655 --> 00:21:50,842 [mathias]: then speak my dialect i get marked for it sounding like a hill billy that's 411 00:21:50,882 --> 00:21:51,403 [mathias]: sort of like a 412 00:21:53,615 --> 00:21:53,739 [zaza]: kay 413 00:21:54,288 --> 00:22:00,719 [mathias]: minor memory of a tribal difference right because the languages were also different in that 414 00:22:00,799 --> 00:22:08,596 [mathias]: sense back in the days now we know that and now we go sort of 415 00:22:08,636 --> 00:22:15,427 [mathias]: like deep into sort of germanic history we know that there was a tendency to 416 00:22:15,528 --> 00:22:17,411 [mathias]: have what you could 417 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:17,584 [zaza]: oh 418 00:22:17,511 --> 00:22:17,952 [mathias]: call 419 00:22:18,909 --> 00:22:18,930 [zaza]: m 420 00:22:20,015 --> 00:22:22,419 [mathias]: i don't really want to use the term but we don't have a better term 421 00:22:22,519 --> 00:22:22,619 [mathias]: for 422 00:22:22,629 --> 00:22:22,650 [zaza]: m 423 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:27,828 [mathias]: it you can call it parliaments some kind of tribal council or or something like 424 00:22:27,868 --> 00:22:35,844 [mathias]: that maybe aligarchic situation where where the the upper class come together and and decide 425 00:22:35,904 --> 00:22:42,707 [mathias]: things and also elect a ruler probably for a time and this actually mirror is 426 00:22:42,767 --> 00:22:48,336 [mathias]: the roman republic in many ways um and that's that's that's that would be quite 427 00:22:48,396 --> 00:22:53,525 [mathias]: natural because we're dealing with population that lives right on the edge of the roman 428 00:22:53,605 --> 00:22:53,965 [mathias]: empire 429 00:22:54,069 --> 00:22:54,090 [zaza]: m 430 00:22:54,586 --> 00:22:55,848 [mathias]: and there of course you know 431 00:22:55,770 --> 00:22:55,790 [zaza]: m 432 00:22:55,889 --> 00:23:00,055 [mathias]: a lot of them go there and as mercenaries and so on and of 433 00:23:00,060 --> 00:23:00,367 [zaza]: oh 434 00:23:00,136 --> 00:23:05,583 [mathias]: course see well what happens in rome what are the powerstruttures here and they seem 435 00:23:05,663 --> 00:23:14,023 [mathias]: to start mirroring that in several ways and then eventually as as time progresses and 436 00:23:14,364 --> 00:23:22,157 [mathias]: as wealth accumulates on fewer and fewer hands we start seeing actual kings in these 437 00:23:22,257 --> 00:23:27,806 [mathias]: locations and the reason that i say that that that denmark probably has has a 438 00:23:29,309 --> 00:23:34,618 [mathias]: pretty solid kingdom situation going on from the beginning of the seven hundreds is that 439 00:23:34,698 --> 00:23:41,123 [mathias]: we can see that in denmark there's there's a lot of public works so to 440 00:23:41,163 --> 00:23:49,917 [mathias]: speak that require a centralized power take place to some degree at least and that's 441 00:23:49,957 --> 00:23:55,126 [mathias]: for instance the forte like wall denaviica in the southern parts which is now in 442 00:23:55,186 --> 00:24:04,610 [mathias]: northern germany um that that is built as a rampart to to protect yes unquote 443 00:24:04,710 --> 00:24:10,740 [mathias]: the country right because you probably wouldn't build a wall like that if you didn't 444 00:24:10,881 --> 00:24:18,993 [mathias]: have a pretty settled idea of you know what lies behind that whole right but 445 00:24:19,053 --> 00:24:25,371 [mathias]: on the other hand a place like norway with deep fiords a lot of mountains 446 00:24:26,031 --> 00:24:31,978 [mathias]: and so on can be more difficult to to to keep in check and so 447 00:24:33,491 --> 00:24:41,404 [mathias]: a royal power in norway would probably have a little harder time actually maintaining that 448 00:24:41,504 --> 00:24:45,430 [mathias]: grip on on that vast territory and this is 449 00:24:45,420 --> 00:24:45,621 [zaza]: yeah 450 00:24:45,491 --> 00:24:57,150 [mathias]: also what we see again the literature represents this these monarchies as as set fixed 451 00:24:57,410 --> 00:25:02,980 [mathias]: dynasties typically but when you read between the lines you can see that yeah no 452 00:25:03,380 --> 00:25:04,402 [mathias]: they were not related 453 00:25:05,170 --> 00:25:05,412 [zaza]: okay 454 00:25:05,203 --> 00:25:05,804 [mathias]: like this this 455 00:25:05,713 --> 00:25:05,914 [zaza]: it was 456 00:25:05,905 --> 00:25:06,065 [mathias]: king 457 00:25:05,975 --> 00:25:06,317 [zaza]: much more 458 00:25:06,265 --> 00:25:06,445 [mathias]: came 459 00:25:06,417 --> 00:25:06,759 [zaza]: fluid 460 00:25:06,546 --> 00:25:06,906 [mathias]: after that 461 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:07,302 [zaza]: probably 462 00:25:06,986 --> 00:25:07,147 [mathias]: king 463 00:25:07,382 --> 00:25:07,584 [zaza]: right 464 00:25:07,627 --> 00:25:15,638 [mathias]: exactly you have you have shifts in dynasties and a dynasty in that time period 465 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:22,890 [mathias]: last probably maximally for three generations and then then you have a new dynasty introduced 466 00:25:23,771 --> 00:25:28,599 [mathias]: so so a lot of you know the way that we think about for inst 467 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:35,571 [mathias]: in both jamish and nouegian royal history i would say should be rewritten in the 468 00:25:35,651 --> 00:25:42,287 [mathias]: sense that we cannot expect these these kings and queens for that or two like 469 00:25:42,367 --> 00:25:46,448 [mathias]: descend from from the previous one even though that it's sort of 470 00:25:46,412 --> 00:25:46,432 [zaza]: m 471 00:25:46,509 --> 00:25:47,496 [mathias]: represented in that way 472 00:25:49,672 --> 00:25:55,101 [zaza]: now you mentioned this a little bit already by saying that viking could be of 473 00:25:55,181 --> 00:26:01,031 [zaza]: many different etnicities but as a slave i was always particularly conf used when it 474 00:26:01,091 --> 00:26:03,374 [zaza]: came to the connection between vikings 475 00:26:03,750 --> 00:26:03,932 [mathias]: yeah 476 00:26:03,855 --> 00:26:09,445 [zaza]: and slavic people to make matters worse a rose in my native tongue which is 477 00:26:09,505 --> 00:26:13,251 [zaza]: a slavic language imslavinian means a russian person but in all 478 00:26:13,217 --> 00:26:13,258 [mathias]: h 479 00:26:13,351 --> 00:26:14,433 [zaza]: times that that's 480 00:26:14,349 --> 00:26:14,370 [mathias]: m 481 00:26:14,473 --> 00:26:17,498 [zaza]: how some people refer to the vikings right as well 482 00:26:17,485 --> 00:26:17,546 [mathias]: hm 483 00:26:18,900 --> 00:26:19,882 [zaza]: anyway i've recently 484 00:26:19,830 --> 00:26:21,210 [mathias]: yah 485 00:26:19,922 --> 00:26:23,027 [zaza]: seen the north man and the most exciting 486 00:26:22,860 --> 00:26:23,123 [mathias]: oh 487 00:26:23,448 --> 00:26:28,211 [zaza]: scene in the film portrays like a brutal viking raid on a slavic 488 00:26:28,113 --> 00:26:28,680 [mathias]: hm 489 00:26:28,311 --> 00:26:32,872 [zaza]: settlement so they make it seem as though the dynamic was there of predator and 490 00:26:32,992 --> 00:26:34,557 [zaza]: prey mostly is that accurate 491 00:26:34,258 --> 00:26:35,981 [mathias]: hm not at all 492 00:26:36,470 --> 00:26:36,710 [zaza]: okay 493 00:26:36,622 --> 00:26:37,744 [mathias]: to the contrary actually 494 00:26:38,294 --> 00:26:38,654 [zaza]: all right 495 00:26:38,565 --> 00:26:47,160 [mathias]: um so so so we have in the history of research inviting age we have 496 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:53,908 [mathias]: big problem that is basically the iron curtain um and that has 497 00:26:53,850 --> 00:26:53,930 [zaza]: so 498 00:26:53,968 --> 00:26:54,389 [mathias]: material 499 00:26:53,990 --> 00:26:57,455 [zaza]: that then in that era they probably didn't allow scholars 500 00:26:57,191 --> 00:26:57,393 [mathias]: yeah 501 00:26:57,515 --> 00:26:59,799 [zaza]: to just rummage around the archives and stuff 502 00:27:00,302 --> 00:27:03,151 [mathias]: that's that's one of the things another thing is also that 503 00:27:06,230 --> 00:27:14,483 [mathias]: both so i'm trying trying to say this gently the russian attitude to 504 00:27:16,396 --> 00:27:16,797 [zaza]: i love it 505 00:27:17,569 --> 00:27:24,360 [mathias]: to the the the origin of the russian state has a lot to say in 506 00:27:24,420 --> 00:27:30,591 [mathias]: this and both before communism and enduring communism there was a strong 507 00:27:31,350 --> 00:27:31,612 [zaza]: yeah 508 00:27:31,373 --> 00:27:40,414 [mathias]: anti germanist sentiment in russia before communism it was a matter of 509 00:27:43,419 --> 00:27:49,670 [mathias]: well there wasn't a lot of interest so to speak in viking stuff in in 510 00:27:49,750 --> 00:27:55,600 [mathias]: eastern europe in general of course but after communism a a lot of it has 511 00:27:55,660 --> 00:28:00,127 [mathias]: to do with were two among other things 512 00:27:59,970 --> 00:28:00,690 [zaza]: yeah 513 00:28:00,267 --> 00:28:07,159 [mathias]: and then also this i uh how how the russians are generating a sense of 514 00:28:07,239 --> 00:28:13,770 [mathias]: being very special as russians and the matter of fact is that there are two 515 00:28:14,210 --> 00:28:22,019 [mathias]: kingdoms that emerge in the russian area during the viking age does nora and k 516 00:28:22,946 --> 00:28:23,640 [zaza]: hm 517 00:28:23,602 --> 00:28:32,710 [mathias]: and they are founded by scandinavians and the scandinavians are consistently referred to as rouse 518 00:28:33,291 --> 00:28:42,675 [mathias]: in this region and that's most likely because they are probably predominantly from the swedish 519 00:28:42,835 --> 00:28:48,845 [mathias]: area and there's a region in sweden called rose lagan ad that's probably where some 520 00:28:48,885 --> 00:29:00,564 [mathias]: of these rulers came from and so this rose it becomes the local nomenclature for 521 00:29:01,905 --> 00:29:02,986 [mathias]: for scandinavians 522 00:29:02,634 --> 00:29:02,895 [zaza]: sanin 523 00:29:03,106 --> 00:29:03,307 [mathias]: there 524 00:29:03,196 --> 00:29:03,317 [zaza]: year 525 00:29:04,508 --> 00:29:14,102 [mathias]: now has been the differences so to speak between new scandinavians and all people is 526 00:29:14,142 --> 00:29:21,053 [mathias]: pretty much in what is eastern europe and played up to an extent that is 527 00:29:21,174 --> 00:29:28,446 [mathias]: unreasonable um what the way that i think we should actually see the cultural connections 528 00:29:29,027 --> 00:29:37,704 [mathias]: faring language but cultural onnections is that from from what is western and christian europe 529 00:29:38,365 --> 00:29:44,174 [mathias]: like from that border so to speak and then east and north all of that 530 00:29:44,395 --> 00:29:50,585 [mathias]: is a continuum of of i wouldn't say the same culture but similar cultures and 531 00:29:50,625 --> 00:29:51,587 [mathias]: we see that very 532 00:29:51,660 --> 00:29:52,410 [zaza]: yeah 533 00:29:52,228 --> 00:29:58,398 [mathias]: clearly in the interactions between scandinavians and the peoples on the eastern baltic the peoples 534 00:29:58,458 --> 00:30:06,553 [mathias]: in poland people into russian river systems it's very very easy for these scandinavians to 535 00:30:06,673 --> 00:30:10,298 [mathias]: navigate the social situations over there and that will tell 536 00:30:10,135 --> 00:30:10,800 [zaza]: hm 537 00:30:10,358 --> 00:30:12,501 [mathias]: you that that's probably because 538 00:30:12,900 --> 00:30:13,101 [zaza]: there's 539 00:30:13,002 --> 00:30:13,162 [mathias]: that 540 00:30:13,142 --> 00:30:14,531 [zaza]: a lot of similar similarities 541 00:30:14,424 --> 00:30:14,564 [mathias]: there 542 00:30:14,592 --> 00:30:14,733 [zaza]: right 543 00:30:14,604 --> 00:30:21,396 [mathias]: are so many similarities religious similarities for instance the way that people live in housing 544 00:30:21,676 --> 00:30:25,282 [mathias]: the way that the society is structured and so and it's not hard for a 545 00:30:25,342 --> 00:30:36,020 [mathias]: scandinavian to integrate into that that social situation and again an overlooked little fact there 546 00:30:36,100 --> 00:30:44,093 [mathias]: are many many viking kings and chieftains and so on that constantly casually 547 00:30:44,130 --> 00:30:44,940 [zaza]: oh 548 00:30:44,154 --> 00:30:48,341 [mathias]: referred to like oh he went to russia for ten years oh went to exile 549 00:30:48,401 --> 00:30:57,275 [mathias]: in or this and that person married the princess of the opldites or the vent 550 00:30:57,536 --> 00:31:06,179 [mathias]: or so on and we also know that ladimia the first is presumed founder the 551 00:31:06,460 --> 00:31:12,790 [mathias]: medieval russian state he went in exile in scandinavia for about ten years two we 552 00:31:12,850 --> 00:31:21,385 [mathias]: know that all of tricklason the king attributed with christian christianizing norway he probably grew 553 00:31:21,545 --> 00:31:26,012 [mathias]: up in russia and so on and so forth so so what it basically comes 554 00:31:26,072 --> 00:31:30,840 [mathias]: down to is that there is a lot more in action between scandinavia and eastern 555 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:37,692 [mathias]: europe than we have cared to admit in the though a scholarship of the last 556 00:31:37,832 --> 00:31:44,643 [mathias]: one hundred years and you know you can't just go like sin all of does 557 00:31:45,304 --> 00:31:51,275 [mathias]: in norway after the battle of stiklastat he goes to no go you can't just 558 00:31:51,375 --> 00:31:54,501 [mathias]: do that if you don't have really really good friends and family there 559 00:31:54,390 --> 00:31:54,590 [zaza]: oh 560 00:31:54,602 --> 00:32:03,797 [mathias]: right so we should see this whole north eastern region of europe as as a 561 00:32:03,898 --> 00:32:09,908 [mathias]: more integrated region than than not you know that that's really how we should perceive 562 00:32:10,408 --> 00:32:18,607 [mathias]: this the scandinavians are very integrated with the populations in the east and we also 563 00:32:18,747 --> 00:32:23,856 [mathias]: see when the arabs are describing rose and 564 00:32:23,981 --> 00:32:24,690 [zaza]: yeah 565 00:32:24,337 --> 00:32:30,207 [mathias]: lipa the slaves quite often they don't distinguish they're just like they're all the same 566 00:32:30,547 --> 00:32:36,457 [mathias]: like over so they speak different languages but but to the to the arabs they're 567 00:32:36,517 --> 00:32:37,799 [mathias]: just like the same population 568 00:32:39,612 --> 00:32:45,405 [zaza]: speaking of arabic accounts an interesting account of the vulgar vikings 569 00:32:45,330 --> 00:32:45,577 [mathias]: oh 570 00:32:45,926 --> 00:32:46,306 [zaza]: comes from 571 00:32:46,230 --> 00:32:47,010 [mathias]: oh 572 00:32:46,367 --> 00:32:47,809 [zaza]: the famous arabic diplomat 573 00:32:47,610 --> 00:32:47,811 [mathias]: oh 574 00:32:47,969 --> 00:32:51,375 [zaza]: at even fadlan who described their appearance like this 575 00:32:51,390 --> 00:32:51,410 [mathias]: m 576 00:32:51,856 --> 00:32:53,819 [zaza]: each is tattooed from the tips of 577 00:32:53,790 --> 00:32:54,056 [mathias]: oh 578 00:32:53,899 --> 00:32:55,061 [zaza]: his lose to his neck 579 00:32:55,020 --> 00:32:55,246 [mathias]: oh 580 00:32:55,802 --> 00:33:00,670 [zaza]: with dark blue or dark green designs and all men are armed with an ax 581 00:33:01,111 --> 00:33:01,392 [zaza]: sword 582 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:01,682 [mathias]: oh 583 00:33:01,632 --> 00:33:06,039 [zaza]: and long knife i have never seen more perfect physical specimens 584 00:33:05,554 --> 00:33:05,657 [mathias]: oh 585 00:33:06,500 --> 00:33:09,608 [zaza]: tall as date palms blond blond and ruddy 586 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:10,284 [mathias]: oh 587 00:33:10,510 --> 00:33:16,279 [zaza]: however he also added that they are shameless and vulgar especially when it comes to 588 00:33:16,420 --> 00:33:22,229 [zaza]: sex which he said they perform openly even in groups i mean if that's true 589 00:33:22,490 --> 00:33:24,031 [zaza]: just makes the more cool in my eyes 590 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:24,482 [mathias]: yeah 591 00:33:24,612 --> 00:33:26,774 [zaza]: these people knew how to have a good time i mean 592 00:33:26,670 --> 00:33:28,980 [mathias]: oh 593 00:33:27,835 --> 00:33:32,359 [zaza]: also this doesn't seem like a very stiff or prudish society if that's true 594 00:33:33,660 --> 00:33:41,248 [mathias]: yeah so there's a couple of things to say about madivnfuklans account we can see 595 00:33:41,308 --> 00:33:42,349 [mathias]: very clearly that 596 00:33:42,540 --> 00:33:43,710 [zaza]: yeah 597 00:33:43,530 --> 00:33:47,817 [mathias]: of course what he what is what is operating in the back of his mind 598 00:33:48,418 --> 00:33:54,168 [mathias]: is how much harm is happening in the location he is listening 599 00:33:54,060 --> 00:33:54,905 [zaza]: apparently a lot 600 00:33:55,670 --> 00:33:56,070 [mathias]: apparently 601 00:33:55,830 --> 00:33:56,790 [zaza]: oh 602 00:33:56,110 --> 00:34:01,617 [mathias]: a lot and he does he evaluate the different peoples that he interacts with 603 00:34:02,493 --> 00:34:02,976 [zaza]: on the basis 604 00:34:02,738 --> 00:34:03,239 [mathias]: observes 605 00:34:03,036 --> 00:34:04,305 [zaza]: of how much harm they are doing 606 00:34:04,410 --> 00:34:05,251 [mathias]: yes exactly 607 00:34:05,051 --> 00:34:05,253 [zaza]: okay 608 00:34:05,311 --> 00:34:09,919 [mathias]: so so there are for instance some muslim turks that he describes where you know 609 00:34:10,139 --> 00:34:11,421 [mathias]: they also do things 610 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:11,442 [zaza]: yeah 611 00:34:11,541 --> 00:34:13,084 [mathias]: that are definitely 612 00:34:12,870 --> 00:34:13,071 [zaza]: yeah 613 00:34:13,505 --> 00:34:14,126 [mathias]: not okay 614 00:34:14,430 --> 00:34:15,300 [zaza]: yeah 615 00:34:15,208 --> 00:34:15,408 [mathias]: from 616 00:34:15,300 --> 00:34:16,140 [zaza]: yeah 617 00:34:15,708 --> 00:34:20,394 [mathias]: the aslamicpis and then he has like but they also have all of these good 618 00:34:21,014 --> 00:34:24,818 [mathias]: sides to them so so it's okay that they did that thing and so on 619 00:34:25,144 --> 00:34:25,265 [zaza]: kay 620 00:34:26,790 --> 00:34:31,618 [mathias]: that's part of his mission when he is traveling in the russian region to to 621 00:34:31,958 --> 00:34:37,247 [mathias]: give a report on the status of islam there because islam is you know pushing 622 00:34:37,307 --> 00:34:43,858 [mathias]: northwards at the time um when it comes to thee this description of these vikings 623 00:34:44,339 --> 00:34:49,748 [mathias]: um there's something to be said for the fact that every time he mentions artifacts 624 00:34:50,860 --> 00:34:58,330 [mathias]: and and things that we can correlate with archaeological evidence he's on point like you 625 00:34:58,390 --> 00:34:59,952 [mathias]: know the way that he describes their 626 00:35:00,611 --> 00:35:00,974 [zaza]: accurate 627 00:35:01,513 --> 00:35:09,202 [mathias]: yeah there the dress the weapon and all that stuff the jewelry that the women 628 00:35:09,262 --> 00:35:11,946 [mathias]: wear and so on we find that in the graves 629 00:35:12,549 --> 00:35:12,570 [zaza]: m 630 00:35:12,587 --> 00:35:21,224 [mathias]: is his description of this chieftain's burial is almost like one to one mirroring such 631 00:35:21,345 --> 00:35:28,295 [mathias]: boat burials that we find in scandinavia too so a lot of scholars have accepted 632 00:35:28,996 --> 00:35:32,842 [mathias]: sort of like his description of the rituals and all that stuff and then we 633 00:35:32,922 --> 00:35:37,229 [mathias]: have these you know physical descriptions he talks about the tattoos and that kind of 634 00:35:37,430 --> 00:35:40,415 [mathias]: and that's just where scholars are more like we don't know if 635 00:35:40,414 --> 00:35:40,434 [zaza]: i 636 00:35:40,455 --> 00:35:44,680 [mathias]: you want to trust him on that and my point is then if we trust 637 00:35:44,720 --> 00:35:49,248 [mathias]: him on all the other stuff why don't we trust him on this too like 638 00:35:51,681 --> 00:35:52,088 [zaza]: makes sense 639 00:35:51,932 --> 00:35:58,003 [mathias]: they could yeah they could very likely have been tattooed ridden research article on that 640 00:35:59,065 --> 00:36:05,206 [mathias]: that is currently in pre review and and one of my main arguments is that 641 00:36:05,687 --> 00:36:10,837 [mathias]: we actually have a lot of terminology in the saga literature from iceland of darkened 642 00:36:11,018 --> 00:36:18,250 [mathias]: skin there's there's a lot a lot of words that indicate that somebody is darker 643 00:36:19,332 --> 00:36:24,481 [mathias]: than the average icelander presumably usually these dividuals 644 00:36:24,030 --> 00:36:24,050 [zaza]: m 645 00:36:24,681 --> 00:36:31,312 [mathias]: come from norway or denmark and so do we chalk that up to sort of 646 00:36:32,774 --> 00:36:38,945 [mathias]: you know physical appearance based on geogenetics well yeah there plenty of examples that you 647 00:36:38,985 --> 00:36:41,890 [mathias]: know seem to specifically state that for instance darker 648 00:36:41,940 --> 00:36:42,105 [zaza]: yeah 649 00:36:41,970 --> 00:36:47,559 [mathias]: hair as i mentioned before that's something that does seem to be become more predominant 650 00:36:47,679 --> 00:36:54,631 [mathias]: among the itinerant population in scandinavia and the viking age so vikings for instance traders 651 00:36:54,711 --> 00:37:00,360 [mathias]: and so on but aside from that there are also some words that cifically 652 00:37:00,141 --> 00:37:00,483 [zaza]: yes 653 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:07,472 [mathias]: signify intentionally darkened skin and this is where tattooing then becomes a relevant subject to 654 00:37:07,532 --> 00:37:14,684 [mathias]: discuss because these same words are used for in in for instance scolding poetry to 655 00:37:14,764 --> 00:37:20,414 [mathias]: talk about the ship's sides that have been painted and so they also use those 656 00:37:20,474 --> 00:37:23,078 [mathias]: words for people's skin and that 657 00:37:23,070 --> 00:37:23,670 [zaza]: yeah 658 00:37:23,258 --> 00:37:27,666 [mathias]: seems to be very close to a situation where somebody has intentionally painted their skin 659 00:37:28,307 --> 00:37:34,357 [mathias]: either on the surface or by by pricking soot or ink into it and so 660 00:37:34,637 --> 00:37:36,901 [mathias]: i think to some or you can accept 661 00:37:37,471 --> 00:37:37,592 [zaza]: ah 662 00:37:37,823 --> 00:37:46,858 [mathias]: um fadlans explanation his claims here whether not there's there's so tall that's that's another 663 00:37:47,479 --> 00:37:50,910 [mathias]: sort of question we know that m 664 00:37:51,420 --> 00:37:51,600 [zaza]: oh 665 00:37:51,500 --> 00:37:53,364 [mathias]: i think i think the average 666 00:37:53,269 --> 00:37:53,430 [zaza]: yeah 667 00:37:53,444 --> 00:37:59,818 [mathias]: heightened viking age is one fifty to sixty five centimeters 668 00:37:59,450 --> 00:38:02,377 [zaza]: oh that's quite short i mean okay for modern 669 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:02,440 [mathias]: yeah 670 00:38:02,437 --> 00:38:02,838 [zaza]: standards 671 00:38:03,121 --> 00:38:05,465 [mathias]: it is but but you know people were shorter 672 00:38:06,310 --> 00:38:06,452 [zaza]: yeah 673 00:38:08,029 --> 00:38:14,099 [mathias]: back then in general so so you know i don't know if that's particularly different 674 00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:19,649 [mathias]: from i don't know what the average height in the calisadeis for instance i would 675 00:38:19,669 --> 00:38:27,702 [mathias]: actually assume that that a guy like falin who probably comes from the elite society 676 00:38:27,822 --> 00:38:29,966 [mathias]: is probably taller than that average 677 00:38:30,361 --> 00:38:30,946 [zaza]: because of food 678 00:38:30,947 --> 00:38:31,168 [mathias]: because 679 00:38:31,007 --> 00:38:31,532 [zaza]: and nutrition 680 00:38:31,629 --> 00:38:35,595 [mathias]: yeah exactly that has something to do with the nutrition you have available from being 681 00:38:35,635 --> 00:38:44,029 [mathias]: a child when you from the i'm being a child so you know that that 682 00:38:44,069 --> 00:38:47,635 [mathias]: might be a bit of an over statement but on the other hand maybe he 683 00:38:47,715 --> 00:38:55,569 [mathias]: was interacting with particularly tall scandinavians that is a possibility too maybe he was looking 684 00:38:55,789 --> 00:39:02,700 [mathias]: at you know elite individuals who had had prop nutrition 685 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:02,743 [zaza]: oh 686 00:39:02,761 --> 00:39:04,664 [mathias]: available to them we do 687 00:39:04,770 --> 00:39:04,953 [zaza]: oh 688 00:39:04,784 --> 00:39:07,528 [mathias]: have some examples of incredibly tall 689 00:39:08,730 --> 00:39:08,971 [zaza]: yeah 690 00:39:08,871 --> 00:39:16,225 [mathias]: vikings to there's a skeleton from denmark where a male viking warrior who by the 691 00:39:16,265 --> 00:39:19,795 [mathias]: way had filed teeth he was 692 00:39:19,891 --> 00:39:21,283 [zaza]: what's our sharpened teeth 693 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:30,193 [mathias]: not sharpened but file like there's like filed a groove in his teeth um so 694 00:39:30,834 --> 00:39:36,504 [mathias]: they don't look like little little points but they are sharper since that the last 695 00:39:36,704 --> 00:39:41,452 [mathias]: little bit of the teeth is like thin episode must have 696 00:39:41,380 --> 00:39:41,601 [zaza]: okay 697 00:39:41,472 --> 00:39:41,973 [mathias]: been sharper 698 00:39:42,143 --> 00:39:42,263 [zaza]: yeah 699 00:39:42,414 --> 00:39:42,514 [mathias]: and 700 00:39:42,705 --> 00:39:42,865 [zaza]: well 701 00:39:43,495 --> 00:39:45,679 [mathias]: he could probably use that to bite off people's 702 00:39:45,663 --> 00:39:46,470 [zaza]: yeah 703 00:39:45,759 --> 00:39:47,021 [mathias]: flat um 704 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:47,821 [zaza]: great stuff 705 00:39:47,702 --> 00:39:50,327 [mathias]: and yeah again that's also sort of 706 00:39:50,567 --> 00:39:50,887 [zaza]: charming 707 00:39:50,567 --> 00:39:51,148 [mathias]: an example 708 00:39:50,928 --> 00:39:51,168 [zaza]: fellow 709 00:39:51,909 --> 00:39:52,110 [mathias]: right 710 00:39:51,930 --> 00:39:52,212 [zaza]: yeah 711 00:39:53,011 --> 00:39:57,399 [mathias]: he was he was killed you know very violently so yeah 712 00:39:57,442 --> 00:39:57,743 [zaza]: okay 713 00:39:57,459 --> 00:39:58,841 [mathias]: he was probably well 714 00:39:58,647 --> 00:39:59,471 [zaza]: sounds about right 715 00:39:59,983 --> 00:40:07,215 [mathias]: yes there as several examples of filed teeth from from the viking age and they 716 00:40:07,295 --> 00:40:12,368 [mathias]: look like they were no viking warriors so and that's another type of body modification 717 00:40:12,448 --> 00:40:13,632 [mathias]: that could sort of support 718 00:40:13,190 --> 00:40:13,390 [zaza]: okay 719 00:40:13,713 --> 00:40:14,134 [mathias]: the idea 720 00:40:14,151 --> 00:40:14,291 [zaza]: okay 721 00:40:14,174 --> 00:40:14,335 [mathias]: of a 722 00:40:14,432 --> 00:40:14,552 [zaza]: not 723 00:40:14,435 --> 00:40:14,897 [mathias]: tattooing 724 00:40:14,612 --> 00:40:20,342 [zaza]: to be too naughty but what about this sexual norms were 725 00:40:20,271 --> 00:40:20,392 [mathias]: ah 726 00:40:20,382 --> 00:40:23,146 [zaza]: they really as open as he says or is 727 00:40:23,100 --> 00:40:23,222 [mathias]: ye 728 00:40:23,226 --> 00:40:26,957 [zaza]: that some sort of an exaggeration because 729 00:40:26,820 --> 00:40:27,024 [mathias]: yeah 730 00:40:27,078 --> 00:40:29,227 [zaza]: of his strict standards 731 00:40:30,282 --> 00:40:30,483 [mathias]: um 732 00:40:30,750 --> 00:40:31,393 [zaza]: do we know anything 733 00:40:31,306 --> 00:40:31,326 [mathias]: i 734 00:40:31,454 --> 00:40:31,795 [zaza]: about that 735 00:40:32,730 --> 00:40:36,416 [mathias]: so so there are several things to be said for that one thing is that 736 00:40:36,516 --> 00:40:45,832 [mathias]: the type of community that he's describing is that warrior male warrior community um and 737 00:40:46,012 --> 00:40:49,538 [mathias]: we we all know that you know when a bunch of men get together and 738 00:40:49,618 --> 00:40:52,102 [mathias]: start getting ideas about things 739 00:40:52,350 --> 00:40:52,872 [zaza]: oh 740 00:40:53,224 --> 00:40:56,469 [mathias]: then that looks very different from other parts of society right 741 00:40:58,508 --> 00:40:58,608 [zaza]: no 742 00:40:58,653 --> 00:40:58,753 [mathias]: that 743 00:40:58,709 --> 00:40:58,950 [zaza]: lives 744 00:40:58,833 --> 00:40:59,014 [mathias]: that's 745 00:40:58,990 --> 00:40:59,131 [zaza]: were 746 00:40:59,134 --> 00:40:59,254 [mathias]: one 747 00:40:59,191 --> 00:40:59,352 [zaza]: said 748 00:40:59,314 --> 00:40:59,474 [mathias]: thing 749 00:40:59,392 --> 00:40:59,573 [zaza]: there 750 00:40:59,534 --> 00:41:00,756 [mathias]: to keep in mind so 751 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:01,464 [zaza]: yeah 752 00:41:01,878 --> 00:41:05,625 [mathias]: that's one thing to keep in mind that they could be partying a lot more 753 00:41:05,785 --> 00:41:05,905 [mathias]: out 754 00:41:06,070 --> 00:41:06,151 [zaza]: ah 755 00:41:06,266 --> 00:41:09,231 [mathias]: their outside of scandinavia than they did in and in avia 756 00:41:09,420 --> 00:41:10,170 [zaza]: yeah 757 00:41:09,972 --> 00:41:18,105 [mathias]: um on the other hand we can't discount the possibility that that you know sexual 758 00:41:18,205 --> 00:41:18,466 [mathias]: normal 759 00:41:18,390 --> 00:41:18,593 [zaza]: yes 760 00:41:18,506 --> 00:41:25,533 [mathias]: spectin were different know even even in early christianity we can see in the laws 761 00:41:25,593 --> 00:41:28,872 [mathias]: and scandinavia that know such things as 762 00:41:31,917 --> 00:41:36,605 [mathias]: reserving your body for your husband and all that stuff that doesn't really there's not 763 00:41:36,665 --> 00:41:41,151 [mathias]: a lot of law material on that in in the medieval lass like for instance 764 00:41:41,191 --> 00:41:45,856 [mathias]: the atlantic law in denmark stipulates that if a man and woman have been living 765 00:41:45,936 --> 00:41:50,140 [mathias]: together under the same roof for three years we can consider them married that gives 766 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,885 [mathias]: you about three years where you could do whatever i guess 767 00:41:53,230 --> 00:41:54,814 [zaza]: that's pretty chill that's nice 768 00:41:54,608 --> 00:41:59,736 [mathias]: yes and in the same way that the laws also stipulate such things as if 769 00:41:59,796 --> 00:42:07,227 [mathias]: a man has made a woman pregnant um m her brothers or other male family 770 00:42:07,267 --> 00:42:10,795 [mathias]: members have the right to go to that man and tell him to marry her 771 00:42:11,180 --> 00:42:11,301 [zaza]: yeah 772 00:42:11,276 --> 00:42:16,295 [mathias]: there is no punishment for the woman there there's no judgment on on her sexual 773 00:42:16,395 --> 00:42:16,856 [mathias]: activity 774 00:42:17,110 --> 00:42:17,274 [zaza]: yeah 775 00:42:17,977 --> 00:42:23,146 [mathias]: it's only if she gets pregnant then then the man has the responsibility that he 776 00:42:23,226 --> 00:42:28,695 [mathias]: has to fulfill so so that of course opens up the possibility for you know 777 00:42:28,836 --> 00:42:34,385 [mathias]: a lot of different detractions so on the sexual levels i'm sure there's been a 778 00:42:34,425 --> 00:42:38,572 [mathias]: lot of judgment too of course of various things and people wanting 779 00:42:38,731 --> 00:42:39,420 [zaza]: ah 780 00:42:39,213 --> 00:42:39,293 [mathias]: to 781 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:39,500 [zaza]: m 782 00:42:39,573 --> 00:42:50,121 [mathias]: to keep both men and women in sort of fixed situations right but we can't 783 00:42:51,864 --> 00:42:58,134 [mathias]: we can't exclude the notion that there is probably like polygamy of various kinds and 784 00:42:59,597 --> 00:43:03,724 [mathias]: again there's also something to that for which part of society we are dealing with 785 00:43:04,285 --> 00:43:12,256 [mathias]: you probably have some m great a measure of freedom in acting the way that 786 00:43:12,296 --> 00:43:18,386 [mathias]: you want when you belong to the lit elite compared to you know the lower 787 00:43:18,466 --> 00:43:24,563 [mathias]: social strata right so so i would not put it past them to you know 788 00:43:24,644 --> 00:43:25,527 [mathias]: do those kinds of things 789 00:43:27,104 --> 00:43:27,205 [zaza]: so 790 00:43:27,374 --> 00:43:28,679 [mathias]: actually i can believe it 791 00:43:30,661 --> 00:43:31,783 [zaza]: that's really cool so 792 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:32,940 [mathias]: yeah 793 00:43:31,943 --> 00:43:34,246 [zaza]: even fadland's accounts are probably 794 00:43:34,020 --> 00:43:34,343 [mathias]: oh 795 00:43:34,286 --> 00:43:36,989 [zaza]: more accurate than the movie northman is that what we're saying 796 00:43:36,790 --> 00:43:38,119 [mathias]: i would say absolutely 797 00:43:38,021 --> 00:43:40,475 [zaza]: by the way i didn't ask you what did you think of the film have 798 00:43:40,515 --> 00:43:40,836 [zaza]: you seen it 799 00:43:41,502 --> 00:43:46,316 [mathias]: i've seen it i am disappointed honestly 800 00:43:46,700 --> 00:43:47,042 [zaza]: oh wow 801 00:43:46,977 --> 00:43:47,078 [mathias]: so 802 00:43:47,283 --> 00:43:47,785 [zaza]: okay cool 803 00:43:48,690 --> 00:43:57,725 [mathias]: so the the costumes the settings and all that stuff are really cool the narrative 804 00:43:58,266 --> 00:44:01,091 [mathias]: to me is just another movie about 805 00:44:01,010 --> 00:44:01,653 [zaza]: revenge tale 806 00:44:01,571 --> 00:44:02,353 [mathias]: violence yeah 807 00:44:02,395 --> 00:44:02,536 [zaza]: yeah 808 00:44:02,934 --> 00:44:04,536 [mathias]: violence scandinavians in the viking 809 00:44:04,324 --> 00:44:04,365 [zaza]: m 810 00:44:04,597 --> 00:44:06,520 [mathias]: age and you know you mentioned this 811 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:06,620 [zaza]: m 812 00:44:06,980 --> 00:44:07,962 [mathias]: raid on that slavic 813 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:07,981 [zaza]: oh 814 00:44:08,483 --> 00:44:13,772 [mathias]: village and that's a great example of how to stare your types what skettinavians were 815 00:44:13,832 --> 00:44:18,920 [mathias]: in the viking age and also for that matter slobs um so i think that's 816 00:44:19,461 --> 00:44:23,107 [mathias]: that's a disappointing feature of the movie and i'd like 817 00:44:23,130 --> 00:44:23,437 [zaza]: yes 818 00:44:23,167 --> 00:44:31,642 [mathias]: to see people who create media about vikings to be more creative and more just 819 00:44:31,682 --> 00:44:34,967 [mathias]: learning of the social and historical reality essentially 820 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:35,922 [zaza]: oh 821 00:44:35,588 --> 00:44:37,111 [mathias]: because why don't we have 822 00:44:37,069 --> 00:44:37,170 [zaza]: yeah 823 00:44:37,151 --> 00:44:38,514 [mathias]: a viking romeo like 824 00:44:38,430 --> 00:44:38,831 [zaza]: oh 825 00:44:39,756 --> 00:44:43,063 [mathias]: why why is it always the italians who get to be the lovers why can't 826 00:44:43,083 --> 00:44:44,405 [mathias]: we skaninadians also have 827 00:44:44,392 --> 00:44:44,573 [zaza]: that's 828 00:44:44,445 --> 00:44:44,686 [mathias]: a little 829 00:44:44,613 --> 00:44:44,853 [zaza]: a good 830 00:44:44,726 --> 00:44:44,886 [mathias]: fun 831 00:44:44,913 --> 00:44:45,234 [zaza]: question 832 00:44:44,946 --> 00:44:45,107 [mathias]: here 833 00:44:45,314 --> 00:44:46,916 [zaza]: i hope hollywood is listening right now 834 00:44:47,623 --> 00:44:47,925 [mathias]: me too 835 00:44:49,461 --> 00:44:53,287 [zaza]: but yeah so you're i mean you're lucky that i haven't seen the t v 836 00:44:53,447 --> 00:44:54,229 [zaza]: show the vikings 837 00:44:54,210 --> 00:44:54,490 [mathias]: oh 838 00:44:54,529 --> 00:44:58,136 [zaza]: so i'm not going to make you state 839 00:44:58,170 --> 00:44:59,070 [mathias]: uh 840 00:44:58,216 --> 00:44:59,097 [zaza]: your opinion on that 841 00:44:59,250 --> 00:45:01,020 [mathias]: uh 842 00:45:00,450 --> 00:45:03,842 [zaza]: but yeah my father keeps convincing me to watch it but it's 843 00:45:03,844 --> 00:45:03,884 [mathias]: i 844 00:45:03,882 --> 00:45:04,002 [zaza]: like 845 00:45:03,945 --> 00:45:04,106 [mathias]: mean 846 00:45:04,083 --> 00:45:05,427 [zaza]: six seasons or something right 847 00:45:05,830 --> 00:45:06,492 [mathias]: it's very long 848 00:45:06,981 --> 00:45:07,226 [zaza]: okay 849 00:45:08,116 --> 00:45:12,145 [mathias]: i'd say that you know it's a fun watch and again 850 00:45:11,940 --> 00:45:13,446 [zaza]: okay that's that's something 851 00:45:14,060 --> 00:45:14,581 [mathias]: yeah 852 00:45:14,703 --> 00:45:14,845 [zaza]: yeah 853 00:45:14,842 --> 00:45:18,912 [mathias]: but again you know it's it's again presents the same stereotype of the 854 00:45:18,831 --> 00:45:18,974 [zaza]: yeah 855 00:45:19,073 --> 00:45:20,437 [mathias]: the violent scandinavians 856 00:45:20,690 --> 00:45:26,119 [zaza]: okay okay so let's move on to mythology and religion to be honest 857 00:45:26,102 --> 00:45:26,142 [mathias]: hm 858 00:45:26,179 --> 00:45:32,209 [zaza]: with you i tried educating myself a little bit on norse cosmology but got lost 859 00:45:32,250 --> 00:45:32,472 [mathias]: yeah 860 00:45:32,670 --> 00:45:33,952 [zaza]: pretty quickly each time 861 00:45:34,110 --> 00:45:35,130 [mathias]: oh 862 00:45:34,233 --> 00:45:38,541 [zaza]: i have to be honest i do remember a couple of the gods such as 863 00:45:38,922 --> 00:45:41,487 [zaza]: odin and tor and loki obviously 864 00:45:41,730 --> 00:45:41,913 [mathias]: oh 865 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:43,400 [zaza]: and something 866 00:45:43,140 --> 00:45:43,321 [mathias]: yeah 867 00:45:43,441 --> 00:45:44,522 [zaza]: about nine worlds 868 00:45:44,228 --> 00:45:44,370 [mathias]: yeah 869 00:45:44,863 --> 00:45:44,923 [zaza]: and 870 00:45:44,910 --> 00:45:45,583 [mathias]: yeah 871 00:45:45,003 --> 00:45:46,746 [zaza]: a big tree but that's 872 00:45:46,833 --> 00:45:47,400 [mathias]: hm 873 00:45:46,866 --> 00:45:52,115 [zaza]: pretty much it unfortunately i'm sad to say it all seems quite unique and quite 874 00:45:52,215 --> 00:45:58,607 [zaza]: complicated could you distill this at least the origin myth for dummies such as myself 875 00:45:58,867 --> 00:46:00,778 [zaza]: a little bit you would be so 876 00:46:00,723 --> 00:46:01,024 [mathias]: okay 877 00:46:00,839 --> 00:46:01,042 [zaza]: kind 878 00:46:02,166 --> 00:46:02,727 [mathias]: i can try 879 00:46:03,071 --> 00:46:03,457 [zaza]: thank you 880 00:46:03,548 --> 00:46:04,670 [mathias]: so so 881 00:46:05,250 --> 00:46:05,970 [zaza]: yeah 882 00:46:05,511 --> 00:46:09,578 [mathias]: i want to preface this with the major problem that we have and that is 883 00:46:09,919 --> 00:46:10,580 [mathias]: that of 884 00:46:10,606 --> 00:46:10,749 [zaza]: yeah 885 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:17,531 [mathias]: this stuff is written by christians um and it's written not just written by christians 886 00:46:17,591 --> 00:46:20,697 [mathias]: but it's also written with a specific purpose by christians 887 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:20,420 [zaza]: m 888 00:46:21,197 --> 00:46:25,991 [mathias]: the primary christians who ever and this stuff is snorystutoson i stand a chieftain in 889 00:46:26,031 --> 00:46:26,692 [mathias]: the twelve hundreds 890 00:46:27,030 --> 00:46:27,720 [zaza]: yeah 891 00:46:28,174 --> 00:46:35,485 [mathias]: and it is very obvious that when you compare um his description of northern mythology 892 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:36,240 [zaza]: my 893 00:46:36,006 --> 00:46:45,582 [mathias]: with available religious texts at the time christianity and then also mediterranean phil sophy some 894 00:46:46,583 --> 00:46:51,291 [mathias]: platonic philosophy for instance that kind of stuff you can see how he is actually 895 00:46:51,391 --> 00:46:52,213 [mathias]: synthesizing 896 00:46:52,710 --> 00:46:52,990 [zaza]: oh 897 00:46:52,934 --> 00:46:56,460 [mathias]: a lot of christian and medteranian withal g 898 00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:56,899 [zaza]: yeah 899 00:46:57,182 --> 00:47:05,421 [mathias]: mythology philosophy about the creation of the world stuff to fit into this description of 900 00:47:05,681 --> 00:47:12,252 [mathias]: northern mythology but we have some poetry as well that that is more fragmented in 901 00:47:12,352 --> 00:47:14,456 [mathias]: its way of representing 902 00:47:15,030 --> 00:47:15,231 [zaza]: oh 903 00:47:15,798 --> 00:47:19,444 [mathias]: the creation of the world and the cost of us and all that stuff which 904 00:47:19,785 --> 00:47:25,857 [mathias]: probably is more on point in terms of what people believed in the time so 905 00:47:27,260 --> 00:47:29,453 [mathias]: there's definitely a world tree that 906 00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:30,926 [zaza]: oh 907 00:47:30,820 --> 00:47:32,302 [mathias]: that seems to be sort of the center 908 00:47:32,310 --> 00:47:32,491 [zaza]: oh 909 00:47:32,362 --> 00:47:34,366 [mathias]: focus of the cosmos 910 00:47:34,230 --> 00:47:34,492 [zaza]: oh 911 00:47:35,428 --> 00:47:40,055 [mathias]: and now you said nine worlds now not in this idea of nine worlds that's 912 00:47:40,175 --> 00:47:46,506 [mathias]: a that's a modern scholarly interpretation um it looks 913 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,110 [zaza]: yeah 914 00:47:46,566 --> 00:47:51,635 [mathias]: more like back then they would have been like well rear on this level and 915 00:47:51,540 --> 00:47:51,560 [zaza]: m 916 00:47:51,675 --> 00:47:53,117 [mathias]: then there is an above and 917 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:53,602 [zaza]: oh 918 00:47:53,418 --> 00:47:53,638 [mathias]: below 919 00:47:54,530 --> 00:47:54,992 [zaza]: okay very 920 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:54,980 [mathias]: no 921 00:47:55,072 --> 00:47:55,514 [zaza]: classical 922 00:47:55,221 --> 00:47:55,281 [mathias]: no 923 00:47:55,615 --> 00:47:55,815 [zaza]: kind of 924 00:47:56,182 --> 00:47:57,244 [mathias]: yes exactly 925 00:47:56,850 --> 00:47:58,174 [zaza]: osmologicsetting 926 00:47:57,965 --> 00:47:58,165 [mathias]: yes 927 00:47:58,295 --> 00:47:58,435 [zaza]: yeah 928 00:47:59,488 --> 00:48:02,172 [mathias]: that's usually how humans think about the world 929 00:48:02,010 --> 00:48:02,131 [zaza]: yeah 930 00:48:02,793 --> 00:48:08,683 [mathias]: like globally so and so what lives the world besides humans is of course you 931 00:48:08,723 --> 00:48:08,823 [mathias]: know 932 00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:09,065 [zaza]: oh 933 00:48:08,923 --> 00:48:14,473 [mathias]: all these animals and so on and then there are spirits and everything so rocks 934 00:48:14,633 --> 00:48:22,586 [mathias]: and trees and rivers and mountains s and fields and all the things are inhabited 935 00:48:22,827 --> 00:48:24,229 [mathias]: by some kind 936 00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:24,385 [zaza]: oh 937 00:48:24,269 --> 00:48:29,077 [mathias]: of spirit that controls that right and this is what we see in the folk 938 00:48:29,157 --> 00:48:31,622 [mathias]: lore of scandinavia that's still today 939 00:48:31,770 --> 00:48:31,974 [zaza]: oh 940 00:48:31,822 --> 00:48:39,940 [mathias]: you know you have les everywhere you have what we call is these little it 941 00:48:40,060 --> 00:48:46,291 [mathias]: gave you loki of the of the farm right compared to the roman lads right 942 00:48:47,613 --> 00:48:51,499 [mathias]: you have you have a troll 943 00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:51,541 [zaza]: yeah 944 00:48:51,720 --> 00:48:52,581 [mathias]: or an evil spirit 945 00:48:52,328 --> 00:48:52,470 [zaza]: yeah 946 00:48:52,621 --> 00:49:00,194 [mathias]: of some kind that that will try to take you into the river or throw 947 00:49:00,294 --> 00:49:04,320 [mathias]: rocks at you from the mountain and so on do you see spirits that inhabit 948 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:09,425 [mathias]: the world around us so that's probably like the world that builds vikings walked around 949 00:49:09,525 --> 00:49:16,572 [mathias]: it and then they had sacred sites of various kinds so we could see this 950 00:49:16,632 --> 00:49:18,856 [mathias]: into place names their locations that are 951 00:49:18,819 --> 00:49:18,840 [zaza]: m 952 00:49:18,896 --> 00:49:28,953 [mathias]: called thor's arable land or odin's mountain or frere's grove all over scandinavia these would 953 00:49:28,973 --> 00:49:38,188 [mathias]: have been locations where they pursuently well expected to find that particular deity and they 954 00:49:38,228 --> 00:49:48,305 [mathias]: would have temper sites where they did ritualspersumably again directed mostly towards ten i think 955 00:49:49,226 --> 00:49:51,811 [mathias]: um that's that's the general 956 00:49:51,574 --> 00:49:51,739 [zaza]: yeah 957 00:49:51,911 --> 00:49:53,954 [mathias]: assumption that we have and then we also see 958 00:49:54,420 --> 00:49:55,020 [zaza]: yeah 959 00:49:55,016 --> 00:50:05,073 [mathias]: ritual activity in uh bodies of water lakes bogs rivers and so on sacrifices that 960 00:50:05,113 --> 00:50:10,462 [mathias]: were probably made to some other deities that that they perceived as existing in those 961 00:50:11,423 --> 00:50:12,886 [mathias]: locations so 962 00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:13,460 [zaza]: m 963 00:50:13,827 --> 00:50:18,655 [mathias]: um when we then go to the mythology as it's described right we get an 964 00:50:18,715 --> 00:50:24,765 [mathias]: entirely different idea about what the world was like for them so if we trust 965 00:50:24,845 --> 00:50:31,034 [mathias]: that idea then then i think we're actually going astray 966 00:50:32,263 --> 00:50:32,910 [zaza]: hm 967 00:50:32,276 --> 00:50:38,586 [mathias]: what we can see in the mythology are sort of little elements of what i 968 00:50:38,646 --> 00:50:40,209 [mathias]: have otherwise described based of 969 00:50:40,449 --> 00:50:40,470 [zaza]: m 970 00:50:40,971 --> 00:50:49,416 [mathias]: archarchaology and place names and it's certainly there but it's as i said it's interpreted 971 00:50:49,476 --> 00:50:57,169 [mathias]: through this lens of a very hard christianity actually and the nine worlds aspect of 972 00:50:57,229 --> 00:50:59,553 [mathias]: that is also infused 973 00:50:59,602 --> 00:51:00,120 [zaza]: right 974 00:50:59,633 --> 00:51:08,247 [mathias]: from christianity we see snorri describes how hell rules over the bottom level of nine 975 00:51:08,408 --> 00:51:12,303 [mathias]: levels in the underworld and you know what does that sound 976 00:51:12,191 --> 00:51:12,312 [zaza]: yeah 977 00:51:12,364 --> 00:51:12,565 [mathias]: like 978 00:51:12,913 --> 00:51:14,097 [zaza]: sounds quite familiar from 979 00:51:14,470 --> 00:51:14,710 [mathias]: right 980 00:51:14,579 --> 00:51:15,662 [zaza]: from my bible school 981 00:51:16,293 --> 00:51:24,126 [mathias]: exactly exactly it's very much the classical catholic idea of the levels of punishment in 982 00:51:24,206 --> 00:51:28,934 [mathias]: hell and stuff which you know by the is inherited from from greek 983 00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:28,820 [zaza]: m 984 00:51:29,034 --> 00:51:34,904 [mathias]: roman religion to an extent at least so it's not like it's like just christian 985 00:51:35,245 --> 00:51:40,532 [mathias]: but but the way that it finds itself in in the north mythology is probably 986 00:51:40,632 --> 00:51:52,202 [mathias]: through christianity rather than some older connection between belief systems now oh lory gives us 987 00:51:52,984 --> 00:52:01,117 [mathias]: a range of deities that comes out to about twelve i think he again represents 988 00:52:02,139 --> 00:52:13,470 [mathias]: the uh the the situation of the gods in light of christianity we have oathin 989 00:52:13,690 --> 00:52:20,461 [mathias]: sort of like a false jesus all father god figure and then you know his 990 00:52:20,501 --> 00:52:28,114 [mathias]: disciples essentially and we have the most prominent disciple is thor who goes out and 991 00:52:28,194 --> 00:52:29,116 [mathias]: kicks as everywhere 992 00:52:29,310 --> 00:52:29,512 [zaza]: oh 993 00:52:30,959 --> 00:52:31,119 [mathias]: but 994 00:52:31,170 --> 00:52:31,411 [zaza]: yeah 995 00:52:31,820 --> 00:52:37,470 [mathias]: um but you know again this is screwed towards 996 00:52:37,530 --> 00:52:37,815 [zaza]: yes 997 00:52:39,193 --> 00:52:39,493 [mathias]: a couple 998 00:52:39,420 --> 00:52:39,440 [zaza]: m 999 00:52:39,533 --> 00:52:45,148 [mathias]: of things that say one what snore is representing the elements that are true 1000 00:52:45,270 --> 00:52:45,472 [zaza]: oh 1001 00:52:45,731 --> 00:52:56,578 [mathias]: so to speak possibly authentic come from the upper strata society in iceland in particular 1002 00:52:57,279 --> 00:53:01,865 [mathias]: which could be very different in norway could be very different in denmark and sweden 1003 00:53:02,306 --> 00:53:10,769 [mathias]: and so on and he's also representing this from you know the perspective of his 1004 00:53:10,970 --> 00:53:21,347 [mathias]: own locations so barca where he sly operated in his lifetime was a location where 1005 00:53:21,547 --> 00:53:26,636 [mathias]: odin seems to have been a particularly prominent deity but there are other parts of 1006 00:53:26,756 --> 00:53:29,843 [mathias]: iceland where free for instance it was more important 1007 00:53:30,700 --> 00:53:33,443 [zaza]: again this sounds a little bit like ancient greece where one 1008 00:53:33,710 --> 00:53:34,650 [mathias]: yeah 1009 00:53:33,764 --> 00:53:36,607 [zaza]: city state championed one god and 1010 00:53:36,650 --> 00:53:36,791 [mathias]: yeah 1011 00:53:36,667 --> 00:53:37,849 [zaza]: another champion another 1012 00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:39,991 [mathias]: yeah that that is probably 1013 00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:40,041 [zaza]: but 1014 00:53:40,052 --> 00:53:40,756 [mathias]: the situation 1015 00:53:40,261 --> 00:53:45,334 [zaza]: so you did have a pantheon of established 1016 00:53:44,970 --> 00:53:45,374 [mathias]: oh 1017 00:53:45,374 --> 00:53:47,098 [zaza]: deities probably so to speak 1018 00:53:47,650 --> 00:53:47,870 [mathias]: yes 1019 00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:47,961 [zaza]: would 1020 00:53:47,950 --> 00:53:48,050 [mathias]: the 1021 00:53:48,001 --> 00:53:48,062 [zaza]: you 1022 00:53:48,111 --> 00:53:48,431 [mathias]: question 1023 00:53:48,142 --> 00:53:48,264 [zaza]: say 1024 00:53:48,591 --> 00:53:51,596 [mathias]: is the question is just how fixed is that pantheon 1025 00:53:51,702 --> 00:53:52,410 [zaza]: hm 1026 00:53:52,538 --> 00:53:54,020 [mathias]: and can we trust 1027 00:53:54,330 --> 00:53:54,592 [zaza]: oh 1028 00:53:54,341 --> 00:54:00,181 [mathias]: that the literary representation of the pantheon really reflects the pantheon that people had 1029 00:54:00,242 --> 00:54:00,323 [zaza]: ah 1030 00:54:00,261 --> 00:54:00,942 [mathias]: in their minds 1031 00:54:01,159 --> 00:54:01,200 [zaza]: ah 1032 00:54:01,603 --> 00:54:09,656 [mathias]: now so i've for for just like hobby reasons i have collected the 1033 00:54:09,690 --> 00:54:09,710 [zaza]: m 1034 00:54:09,776 --> 00:54:15,726 [mathias]: names of all sort of supernatural beings that we find in the germanic realm 1035 00:54:15,510 --> 00:54:15,937 [zaza]: oh 1036 00:54:16,367 --> 00:54:21,516 [mathias]: that includes what we get from literature what we find on votive stones from the 1037 00:54:21,576 --> 00:54:27,606 [mathias]: rhine land from the first couple of centuries after the year zero other kinds of 1038 00:54:27,787 --> 00:54:32,735 [mathias]: you know text where we can sort of assume that they are actually talking about 1039 00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:32,982 [zaza]: oh 1040 00:54:32,775 --> 00:54:37,484 [mathias]: an ancient deity rather than a king or something like that and we end up 1041 00:54:37,584 --> 00:54:38,447 [mathias]: with something like eight 1042 00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:38,540 [zaza]: m 1043 00:54:38,547 --> 00:54:45,670 [mathias]: hundred eight hundred different you know names for supernatural beings that people 1044 00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:46,442 [zaza]: oh 1045 00:54:46,671 --> 00:54:48,013 [mathias]: in this general 1046 00:54:48,090 --> 00:54:48,291 [zaza]: oh 1047 00:54:48,154 --> 00:54:52,684 [mathias]: northern realm have believed in or communicate with or whatever they did 1048 00:54:53,910 --> 00:54:54,111 [zaza]: oh 1049 00:54:54,030 --> 00:54:55,416 [mathias]: in a period of about 1050 00:54:55,770 --> 00:54:56,032 [zaza]: yeah 1051 00:54:56,660 --> 00:55:01,586 [mathias]: well a thousand years right now that's a very different picture from 1052 00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:01,822 [zaza]: yeah 1053 00:55:01,787 --> 00:55:03,569 [mathias]: from what snotitudeon gives us right 1054 00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:03,683 [zaza]: yeah 1055 00:55:04,720 --> 00:55:08,987 [mathias]: and so that should tell us then that that there's a lot more variation 1056 00:55:09,300 --> 00:55:09,522 [zaza]: oh 1057 00:55:09,788 --> 00:55:18,703 [mathias]: than then the literature gives us reason to believe and does that mean then that 1058 00:55:18,743 --> 00:55:19,925 [mathias]: we can't use this 1059 00:55:19,878 --> 00:55:19,959 [zaza]: ah 1060 00:55:20,025 --> 00:55:25,635 [mathias]: literature to say well the vikings probably believe this now that that that's it you 1061 00:55:25,675 --> 00:55:26,536 [mathias]: can still use it you 1062 00:55:26,490 --> 00:55:26,772 [zaza]: yes 1063 00:55:26,576 --> 00:55:31,184 [mathias]: just have to be incredibly costs for instance the popular idea of like oh the 1064 00:55:31,224 --> 00:55:33,989 [mathias]: vikings believed that the world was created in this 1065 00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:34,383 [zaza]: oh 1066 00:55:34,289 --> 00:55:37,154 [mathias]: conflagrance of like fire and ice 1067 00:55:37,134 --> 00:55:37,279 [zaza]: es 1068 00:55:37,234 --> 00:55:38,696 [mathias]: and all that stuff no they didn't 1069 00:55:38,940 --> 00:55:39,161 [zaza]: yeah 1070 00:55:39,538 --> 00:55:41,020 [mathias]: like that's 1071 00:55:40,853 --> 00:55:41,054 [zaza]: yeah 1072 00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:46,670 [mathias]: like that's a fantasy that that's noticed oleson has in iceland for obvious reasons right 1073 00:55:48,152 --> 00:55:54,803 [mathias]: some of it is directly borrowed from classical philosophy like the idea of different elements 1074 00:55:54,923 --> 00:55:56,907 [mathias]: coming together to create a perfect 1075 00:55:56,732 --> 00:55:56,752 [zaza]: m 1076 00:55:56,987 --> 00:55:57,948 [mathias]: environment for 1077 00:55:58,089 --> 00:55:58,110 [zaza]: h 1078 00:55:58,750 --> 00:56:04,459 [mathias]: humans to exist in that's something that he has bought directly from plato but then 1079 00:56:04,700 --> 00:56:04,960 [mathias]: you know 1080 00:56:04,950 --> 00:56:04,970 [zaza]: m 1081 00:56:05,321 --> 00:56:09,728 [mathias]: there are also elements in his description of how you know we have these rivers 1082 00:56:09,768 --> 00:56:10,750 [mathias]: that flow and 1083 00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:10,965 [zaza]: yeah 1084 00:56:10,930 --> 00:56:17,301 [mathias]: then they crossed over and you know a fire and sparks from and all that 1085 00:56:17,361 --> 00:56:18,162 [mathias]: stuff that's 1086 00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:18,563 [zaza]: oh 1087 00:56:18,363 --> 00:56:27,618 [mathias]: obviously you know someone observing a low effusive eruption in iceland because that's exactly how 1088 00:56:27,718 --> 00:56:29,391 [mathias]: that that works you know 1089 00:56:29,425 --> 00:56:30,060 [zaza]: hm 1090 00:56:29,451 --> 00:56:35,702 [mathias]: you have these rivers of lava that then become paholihoy as 1091 00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:35,861 [zaza]: oh 1092 00:56:35,762 --> 00:56:44,096 [mathias]: its called in in in the vulcanology an um and so he he describes a 1093 00:56:44,176 --> 00:56:48,944 [mathias]: very icelandic situation actually in into mythology and it's 1094 00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:49,263 [zaza]: yeah 1095 00:56:50,005 --> 00:56:50,326 [mathias]: you know 1096 00:56:50,970 --> 00:56:51,212 [zaza]: yeah 1097 00:56:51,207 --> 00:56:56,698 [mathias]: comparably we go to nish mythology and carlovala right we see vinamoinan 1098 00:56:56,790 --> 00:56:57,053 [zaza]: yeah 1099 00:56:57,830 --> 00:56:59,092 [mathias]: he walks around and 1100 00:56:59,070 --> 00:56:59,399 [zaza]: oh 1101 00:56:59,813 --> 00:57:04,260 [mathias]: and he sows trees everywhere you know as 1102 00:57:04,603 --> 00:57:04,725 [zaza]: as 1103 00:57:04,761 --> 00:57:10,951 [mathias]: part of creation and that looks like much more likely much more likely scenario for 1104 00:57:11,452 --> 00:57:18,922 [mathias]: sort of like a creation mythology or myth for for you know scandinavia eastern scandinavian 1105 00:57:19,023 --> 00:57:24,051 [mathias]: southern scandinavia rather than something that has to do with ice and fire we also 1106 00:57:24,171 --> 00:57:27,837 [mathias]: have the pole and vital spot or the prophecy of the seris 1107 00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:27,683 [zaza]: yeah 1108 00:57:28,498 --> 00:57:32,886 [mathias]: where it kind of looks like in the beginning of time when the world is 1109 00:57:32,986 --> 00:57:36,932 [mathias]: created the gods are actually plowing fields because 1110 00:57:37,050 --> 00:57:38,220 [zaza]: yeah 1111 00:57:37,213 --> 00:57:44,703 [mathias]: there's like this phrase that goes they and that means something like the 1112 00:57:44,730 --> 00:57:44,750 [zaza]: m 1113 00:57:46,344 --> 00:57:51,029 [mathias]: they raised the ground now this could either be a situation where 1114 00:57:51,436 --> 00:57:51,600 [zaza]: yeah 1115 00:57:51,790 --> 00:57:56,885 [mathias]: earth is taken out of the ocean by the gods which is a very common 1116 00:57:57,727 --> 00:57:58,207 [mathias]: mythology 1117 00:57:58,200 --> 00:57:58,444 [zaza]: oh 1118 00:57:59,029 --> 00:58:00,311 [mathias]: sorry creation 1119 00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:00,364 [zaza]: yeah 1120 00:58:00,371 --> 00:58:04,858 [mathias]: myth around the world usually it's some kind of bird that does it but 1121 00:58:05,910 --> 00:58:06,134 [zaza]: oh 1122 00:58:06,402 --> 00:58:12,037 [mathias]: we find different animals that are capable of diving into the ocean or diving into 1123 00:58:12,137 --> 00:58:13,620 [mathias]: a lake and 1124 00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:13,681 [zaza]: ye 1125 00:58:13,660 --> 00:58:15,604 [mathias]: then picking up sledge like a beaver 1126 00:58:15,450 --> 00:58:15,632 [zaza]: oh 1127 00:58:15,704 --> 00:58:20,732 [mathias]: could also do it or musquat native american mythologies for instance 1128 00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:21,463 [zaza]: oh 1129 00:58:22,175 --> 00:58:23,136 [mathias]: it could be this 1130 00:58:23,130 --> 00:58:23,414 [zaza]: yeah 1131 00:58:23,457 --> 00:58:29,627 [mathias]: nordic situation could be mirroring that or it could be literally plowing 1132 00:58:29,829 --> 00:58:29,850 [zaza]: m 1133 00:58:30,809 --> 00:58:30,869 [mathias]: and 1134 00:58:30,810 --> 00:58:30,830 [zaza]: m 1135 00:58:30,949 --> 00:58:34,996 [mathias]: if that is the case then maybe we're actually dealing with an element of southern 1136 00:58:35,457 --> 00:58:36,679 [mathias]: scandinavian mythology 1137 00:58:36,570 --> 00:58:36,853 [zaza]: yeah 1138 00:58:36,779 --> 00:58:38,682 [mathias]: where have a lot of plowed fields 1139 00:58:38,490 --> 00:58:38,712 [zaza]: oh 1140 00:58:38,842 --> 00:58:42,769 [mathias]: everywhere and and it would make sense that they're like well this is how we 1141 00:58:42,889 --> 00:58:44,752 [mathias]: create a world by plowing 1142 00:58:44,250 --> 00:58:44,514 [zaza]: yes 1143 00:58:45,113 --> 00:58:45,834 [mathias]: and sowing 1144 00:58:46,170 --> 00:58:46,414 [zaza]: oh 1145 00:58:46,275 --> 00:58:52,521 [mathias]: our fields and then you know then lie happens right so we also see these 1146 00:58:52,561 --> 00:58:56,086 [mathias]: little elements here and there in the mythology that that seem to connect to different 1147 00:58:56,166 --> 00:58:57,549 [mathias]: points of scananavia 1148 00:58:57,309 --> 00:59:03,738 [zaza]: m so it was all much more varied and nuance than it's usually portrayed 1149 00:59:03,387 --> 00:59:04,011 [mathias]: absolutely 1150 00:59:04,219 --> 00:59:04,459 [zaza]: so it 1151 00:59:04,433 --> 00:59:04,655 [mathias]: yes 1152 00:59:04,499 --> 00:59:11,333 [zaza]: wasn't like the olympians in ancient greece where you have like twelve principal deities and 1153 00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:16,028 [mathias]: well again you know that that that situation in ancient greece is also created out 1154 00:59:16,068 --> 00:59:17,511 [mathias]: of literature um 1155 00:59:17,324 --> 00:59:18,012 [zaza]: yeah of course 1156 00:59:18,933 --> 00:59:21,437 [mathias]: he sat right he he writes 1157 00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:21,703 [zaza]: yeah 1158 00:59:21,978 --> 00:59:24,683 [mathias]: theogony end and and then we believe that that 1159 00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:25,689 [zaza]: yeah 1160 00:59:24,723 --> 00:59:26,686 [mathias]: is how the greeks you 1161 00:59:26,630 --> 00:59:26,952 [zaza]: believed 1162 00:59:26,726 --> 00:59:26,886 [mathias]: know 1163 00:59:27,315 --> 00:59:28,140 [zaza]: yeah 1164 00:59:27,608 --> 00:59:30,412 [mathias]: yeah but but when when you 1165 00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:30,584 [zaza]: oh 1166 00:59:30,492 --> 00:59:32,235 [mathias]: look at local temple sites 1167 00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:32,542 [zaza]: yes 1168 00:59:32,536 --> 00:59:37,544 [mathias]: when you look at ritual activity and all that stuff in ancient greece you'll see 1169 00:59:37,604 --> 00:59:38,165 [mathias]: that there's 1170 00:59:38,201 --> 00:59:38,322 [zaza]: is 1171 00:59:38,426 --> 00:59:43,855 [mathias]: a lot more variation than that literary situation that we get right and i'm sure 1172 00:59:44,035 --> 00:59:52,168 [mathias]: that you know zoos was was only the top deity so to speak of the 1173 00:59:52,209 --> 00:59:53,431 [mathias]: pantheon in some 1174 00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:53,664 [zaza]: yes 1175 00:59:53,531 --> 00:59:55,434 [mathias]: situations in some locations 1176 00:59:55,290 --> 00:59:56,460 [zaza]: yeah 1177 00:59:55,494 --> 01:00:01,022 [mathias]: and at some times right where as you know you could elsewhere and you could 1178 01:00:01,242 --> 01:00:01,344 [zaza]: ah 1179 01:00:01,342 --> 01:00:02,563 [mathias]: you could find a 1180 01:00:03,171 --> 01:00:03,252 [zaza]: ah 1181 01:00:03,565 --> 01:00:09,140 [mathias]: i don't know artemis or athena or or festus 1182 01:00:08,902 --> 01:00:09,269 [zaza]: this is 1183 01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:10,782 [mathias]: or someone else being being 1184 01:00:10,650 --> 01:00:10,932 [zaza]: oh 1185 01:00:10,842 --> 01:00:16,386 [mathias]: a more prominent deity so so that's something that we should also keep in mind 1186 01:00:16,406 --> 01:00:16,506 [mathias]: when 1187 01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:16,827 [zaza]: oh 1188 01:00:16,547 --> 01:00:17,808 [mathias]: we think about that in terms of 1189 01:00:18,300 --> 01:00:18,521 [zaza]: oh 1190 01:00:18,308 --> 01:00:19,469 [mathias]: greco roman religion 1191 01:00:19,429 --> 01:00:26,353 [zaza]: yeah ah how did the vikings usually worship their gods and was there 1192 01:00:26,370 --> 01:00:26,594 [mathias]: oh 1193 01:00:26,454 --> 01:00:28,198 [zaza]: any human sacrifice involved 1194 01:00:29,592 --> 01:00:33,423 [mathias]: yeah yes there's a lot of human sacrifice actually 1195 01:00:33,420 --> 01:00:34,102 [zaza]: oh okay 1196 01:00:36,367 --> 01:00:37,209 [mathias]: human sacrifice 1197 01:00:36,769 --> 01:00:37,141 [zaza]: yes ye 1198 01:00:37,269 --> 01:00:38,491 [mathias]: is a very common phenomenon 1199 01:00:39,332 --> 01:00:39,495 [zaza]: right 1200 01:00:39,973 --> 01:00:40,394 [mathias]: in general 1201 01:00:40,870 --> 01:00:41,011 [zaza]: yeah 1202 01:00:42,317 --> 01:00:46,127 [mathias]: but what is actually iteresting to see historically 1203 01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:47,424 [zaza]: yeah 1204 01:00:47,512 --> 01:00:50,925 [mathias]: the anomaly is the roman empire 1205 01:00:51,765 --> 01:00:52,440 [zaza]: hm 1206 01:00:51,830 --> 01:00:53,156 [mathias]: womens don't sacrifice humans 1207 01:00:54,561 --> 01:00:54,601 [zaza]: i 1208 01:00:54,623 --> 01:00:54,724 [mathias]: they 1209 01:00:54,641 --> 01:00:55,243 [zaza]: mean we have that 1210 01:00:55,186 --> 01:00:55,327 [mathias]: what 1211 01:00:55,585 --> 01:00:57,872 [zaza]: coliseum business tying people to the 1212 01:00:57,891 --> 01:00:58,632 [mathias]: see yeah that's 1213 01:00:58,574 --> 01:00:58,775 [zaza]: to the 1214 01:00:58,692 --> 01:00:58,872 [mathias]: that's 1215 01:00:58,815 --> 01:00:59,116 [zaza]: post 1216 01:00:58,912 --> 01:01:01,276 [mathias]: where i was i was just going to say that and 1217 01:01:01,270 --> 01:01:01,390 [zaza]: but 1218 01:01:01,316 --> 01:01:01,657 [mathias]: then you 1219 01:01:01,692 --> 01:01:01,873 [zaza]: that's 1220 01:01:01,697 --> 01:01:01,857 [mathias]: know 1221 01:01:01,913 --> 01:01:02,395 [zaza]: probably yeah 1222 01:01:02,338 --> 01:01:03,160 [mathias]: executions 1223 01:01:02,516 --> 01:01:04,284 [zaza]: that's not the same right yeah 1224 01:01:04,662 --> 01:01:06,325 [mathias]: well conceptually to them at 1225 01:01:06,270 --> 01:01:06,930 [zaza]: yeah 1226 01:01:06,385 --> 01:01:07,487 [mathias]: least it was not the same 1227 01:01:07,781 --> 01:01:07,961 [zaza]: yeah 1228 01:01:09,009 --> 01:01:15,280 [mathias]: week always questioned that of course and you know you know the games the gladiator 1229 01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:17,584 [mathias]: games do seem to have come out of 1230 01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:18,103 [zaza]: oh 1231 01:01:18,826 --> 01:01:21,550 [mathias]: an original ritual situation right where 1232 01:01:21,523 --> 01:01:21,906 [zaza]: interesting 1233 01:01:23,473 --> 01:01:25,336 [mathias]: someone had to be the sacrifice to 1234 01:01:25,340 --> 01:01:25,482 [zaza]: yeah 1235 01:01:25,396 --> 01:01:26,077 [mathias]: the gods right 1236 01:01:26,497 --> 01:01:28,182 [zaza]: yeah yes 1237 01:01:28,390 --> 01:01:32,938 [mathias]: what we see in scandinavia so obviously we don't have the full picture of 1238 01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:33,443 [zaza]: oh 1239 01:01:33,859 --> 01:01:34,000 [mathias]: the 1240 01:01:34,258 --> 01:01:35,271 [zaza]: ah yeah 1241 01:01:35,843 --> 01:01:42,674 [mathias]: the entire spectrum religious and ritual activity it's kanana again because our source situation is 1242 01:01:42,734 --> 01:01:50,968 [mathias]: so sparse so when you ask how did they they worshiped their gods we can 1243 01:01:51,068 --> 01:01:58,079 [mathias]: see on some runic inscriptions that there are invocations of the gods and of demons 1244 01:01:58,200 --> 01:01:58,445 [zaza]: yes 1245 01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:00,103 [mathias]: and other beings 1246 01:01:59,970 --> 01:02:00,193 [zaza]: oh 1247 01:02:01,205 --> 01:02:06,694 [mathias]: for all kinds of purposes for love for for hate for protection and so on 1248 01:02:07,635 --> 01:02:11,562 [mathias]: for illnesses so that was one way that we can 1249 01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:11,862 [zaza]: yeah 1250 01:02:12,203 --> 01:02:12,984 [mathias]: we know the 1251 01:02:13,530 --> 01:02:13,711 [zaza]: oh 1252 01:02:13,806 --> 01:02:18,774 [mathias]: concretely that they worshipped their deities and this mirrors the way that people worship deities 1253 01:02:18,834 --> 01:02:26,547 [mathias]: across the planet again we know there were temple sites now many of my colleagues 1254 01:02:26,647 --> 01:02:30,293 [mathias]: in archeology you know well quince when i say 1255 01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:30,521 [zaza]: oh 1256 01:02:30,413 --> 01:02:38,387 [mathias]: temple because it's a long standing discuss and in the study of pre christian religion 1257 01:02:38,427 --> 01:02:42,934 [mathias]: in the north whether or not there were there were temple sites you know tacitus 1258 01:02:42,994 --> 01:02:49,425 [mathias]: the roman historian who's describing giving the earliest description of germanic peoples more or less 1259 01:02:50,667 --> 01:02:52,129 [mathias]: says that they don't have temples they 1260 01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:52,142 [zaza]: yeah 1261 01:02:52,350 --> 01:02:57,839 [mathias]: worship under the open sky and blahbablah and that seems to be a romanticizing aspect 1262 01:02:58,280 --> 01:02:58,420 [mathias]: his 1263 01:02:58,518 --> 01:02:58,659 [zaza]: yes 1264 01:02:58,821 --> 01:02:59,542 [mathias]: description of them 1265 01:02:59,610 --> 01:02:59,833 [zaza]: yeah 1266 01:02:59,622 --> 01:03:00,884 [mathias]: rather than something that actually 1267 01:03:00,767 --> 01:03:00,909 [zaza]: yeah 1268 01:03:00,924 --> 01:03:06,874 [mathias]: occurred they did have what my colleagues in archeology would prefer that i call cult 1269 01:03:07,074 --> 01:03:07,535 [mathias]: houses 1270 01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:08,221 [zaza]: m 1271 01:03:08,998 --> 01:03:11,021 [mathias]: i called them temples because that's what they were 1272 01:03:14,306 --> 01:03:19,215 [mathias]: they did have that some of them look more like a um a space than 1273 01:03:19,275 --> 01:03:20,557 [mathias]: a farm essentially 1274 01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:21,750 [zaza]: yeah 1275 01:03:21,018 --> 01:03:26,567 [mathias]: that was then at some transformed into ritual activity and then perhaps transformed back into 1276 01:03:26,687 --> 01:03:30,273 [mathias]: every day activities but 1277 01:03:30,330 --> 01:03:30,611 [zaza]: oh 1278 01:03:30,393 --> 01:03:37,730 [mathias]: other other locations are distinct temple sites where the building is only used for ritual 1279 01:03:37,850 --> 01:03:38,332 [mathias]: purposes 1280 01:03:38,070 --> 01:03:38,090 [zaza]: m 1281 01:03:38,813 --> 01:03:48,450 [mathias]: that is temple and what we find in those locations is a multitude of objects 1282 01:03:48,670 --> 01:03:53,498 [mathias]: that signal different religious activity we have 1283 01:03:53,340 --> 01:03:53,360 [zaza]: m 1284 01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:59,087 [mathias]: one very prominent ritual object is the 1285 01:03:59,160 --> 01:03:59,402 [zaza]: yeah 1286 01:03:59,648 --> 01:04:06,820 [mathias]: so called gold cup which is that word translotranslat to golden dude uh 1287 01:04:07,403 --> 01:04:07,665 [zaza]: golden 1288 01:04:07,642 --> 01:04:07,762 [mathias]: it's 1289 01:04:07,766 --> 01:04:08,068 [zaza]: dude 1290 01:04:07,822 --> 01:04:10,506 [mathias]: these yeah golden dude or golden guy 1291 01:04:10,860 --> 01:04:11,622 [zaza]: oh okay 1292 01:04:12,209 --> 01:04:20,243 [mathias]: so this these tiny gold foils that have a stamped image either a man or 1293 01:04:20,423 --> 01:04:26,423 [mathias]: a man and a woman or an animal or some of them actually like look 1294 01:04:26,483 --> 01:04:30,109 [mathias]: like demons like the very sort of like contorted 1295 01:04:29,540 --> 01:04:29,863 [zaza]: spooky 1296 01:04:30,209 --> 01:04:35,658 [mathias]: figures since yeah spooky looking there are thousands of those that have been found across 1297 01:04:35,738 --> 01:04:37,500 [mathias]: scaninabia um 1298 01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:37,782 [zaza]: oh 1299 01:04:37,861 --> 01:04:44,287 [mathias]: i in these locations that are very distinctly for ritual purposes and we don't know 1300 01:04:44,367 --> 01:04:46,749 [mathias]: exactly what they use them for 1301 01:04:47,100 --> 01:04:47,364 [zaza]: oh 1302 01:04:47,750 --> 01:04:51,553 [mathias]: but you know we can make a bunch of guesses about maybe they have some 1303 01:04:51,613 --> 01:04:55,637 [mathias]: connections to fertility maybe to hunting maybe to protection 1304 01:04:55,658 --> 01:04:55,740 [zaza]: yeah 1305 01:04:55,737 --> 01:05:00,064 [mathias]: against demons and so on and so forth now 1306 01:05:01,588 --> 01:05:01,609 [zaza]: a 1307 01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:07,890 [mathias]: in these locations that we have identified as like temple sites and such we also 1308 01:05:08,091 --> 01:05:13,884 [mathias]: see a lot of evidence of animal sacrifices and some evidence of human sacre isis 1309 01:05:14,771 --> 01:05:17,872 [mathias]: and beer brewing also seems to have 1310 01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:18,103 [zaza]: oh 1311 01:05:17,932 --> 01:05:23,562 [mathias]: been an important component to this and so the alcoholic drink going back to the 1312 01:05:23,602 --> 01:05:24,083 [mathias]: mythology 1313 01:05:23,640 --> 01:05:23,842 [zaza]: oh 1314 01:05:24,183 --> 01:05:28,651 [mathias]: this is where we can use the written mythology from iceland to better and stand 1315 01:05:29,013 --> 01:05:38,508 [mathias]: the role of alcoholic drinking ritual alcohol and meat and beer are are important elements 1316 01:05:38,768 --> 01:05:40,992 [mathias]: of northern mythology in different ways the 1317 01:05:41,010 --> 01:05:41,670 [zaza]: yeah 1318 01:05:41,132 --> 01:05:46,541 [mathias]: most prominent one is the myth about how old an we used the meed of 1319 01:05:46,621 --> 01:05:52,671 [mathias]: poetry right and we see the skulls the viking poets referring to the meat of 1320 01:05:52,772 --> 01:05:59,271 [mathias]: poetry as the thing that gives them the creative energy right a so so so 1321 01:05:59,492 --> 01:06:05,041 [mathias]: so that's that seems to be accurate that that the alcoholic drink was an important 1322 01:06:05,261 --> 01:06:11,958 [mathias]: feature in rituals in scandinavia especially when we didn't also you know evidence of beer 1323 01:06:12,019 --> 01:06:19,268 [mathias]: brewing in location stead have you no evidence of other rituals um this probably comes 1324 01:06:19,388 --> 01:06:29,725 [mathias]: from the roman drinking rituals actually because the earliest evidence of this seems to correlate 1325 01:06:29,805 --> 01:06:37,618 [mathias]: with the introduction of the drinking bowls from rome they come in the first couple 1326 01:06:37,659 --> 01:06:44,250 [mathias]: of centuries after the zero into southern scananaviwe start finding them there we find roman 1327 01:06:44,330 --> 01:06:49,739 [mathias]: glass as well evidence of wine and such things so we're dealing with this an 1328 01:06:49,859 --> 01:06:54,015 [mathias]: elite at again emulating what the romans doing and 1329 01:06:53,980 --> 01:06:54,200 [zaza]: there's 1330 01:06:54,055 --> 01:06:54,436 [mathias]: this then 1331 01:06:54,280 --> 01:06:54,441 [zaza]: much 1332 01:06:54,517 --> 01:06:54,758 [mathias]: takes 1333 01:06:54,521 --> 01:06:55,964 [zaza]: more roman influence 1334 01:06:57,150 --> 01:06:57,596 [mathias]: it's a lot 1335 01:06:57,467 --> 01:06:57,888 [zaza]: present 1336 01:06:57,758 --> 01:06:57,961 [mathias]: more 1337 01:06:58,850 --> 01:06:59,170 [zaza]: then what 1338 01:06:59,095 --> 01:06:59,135 [mathias]: hm 1339 01:06:59,271 --> 01:07:01,336 [zaza]: i stereo typically or traditionally 1340 01:07:02,056 --> 01:07:02,277 [mathias]: yes 1341 01:07:02,298 --> 01:07:06,568 [zaza]: believed with with the northern civilizations or vikings 1342 01:07:06,350 --> 01:07:07,772 [mathias]: yeah but that's that's 1343 01:07:07,671 --> 01:07:07,833 [zaza]: that's 1344 01:07:07,832 --> 01:07:08,153 [mathias]: the thing 1345 01:07:08,136 --> 01:07:09,024 [zaza]: that's quite surprising 1346 01:07:10,957 --> 01:07:15,405 [mathias]: i'm highlighting it too because i want people to when they're hearing us talk about 1347 01:07:15,425 --> 01:07:19,091 [mathias]: this and want them to be aware of that because again we have had a 1348 01:07:19,151 --> 01:07:25,321 [mathias]: situation where germans didn't like the idea of having been culturally influenced from southern europe 1349 01:07:25,762 --> 01:07:31,532 [mathias]: so they've done everything they could to sort of erase that past right and the 1350 01:07:31,632 --> 01:07:37,061 [mathias]: truth is that hat we see from the year from the first couple of centuries 1351 01:07:37,141 --> 01:07:42,550 [mathias]: before the year zero actually what we see is the scandinavian elite that more and 1352 01:07:42,610 --> 01:07:46,677 [mathias]: more and more try to do what the romans do and 1353 01:07:46,774 --> 01:07:47,460 [zaza]: hm 1354 01:07:47,057 --> 01:07:51,565 [mathias]: the dynamics of scandinavia are intricately linked 1355 01:07:51,531 --> 01:07:51,733 [zaza]: okay 1356 01:07:51,825 --> 01:07:53,468 [mathias]: to what happens in the roman empire 1357 01:07:54,030 --> 01:07:54,233 [zaza]: yeah 1358 01:07:54,069 --> 01:07:58,917 [mathias]: what we for instance in the four hundreds is the emergence of bractiates these gold 1359 01:07:58,997 --> 01:08:08,794 [mathias]: medallions that have like rooms on them and very almost psychodelic jury of what looks 1360 01:08:08,874 --> 01:08:15,625 [mathias]: like somebody it's a man riding on a horse but his body usually isn't there 1361 01:08:15,685 --> 01:08:19,912 [mathias]: it's only his head on the horse and then there raven that comes out of 1362 01:08:19,972 --> 01:08:24,840 [mathias]: his his hair do so he's got sort of like a mullet kind of thing 1363 01:08:24,981 --> 01:08:25,101 [mathias]: that 1364 01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:25,324 [zaza]: oh 1365 01:08:25,141 --> 01:08:30,810 [mathias]: then turns into elves raven on his head or he's talking to a raven and 1366 01:08:31,151 --> 01:08:38,563 [mathias]: this imagery seems to mirror the imagery that we find in northern mythology the literature 1367 01:08:39,405 --> 01:08:44,551 [mathias]: that is associated with odin and we know that these brats it's they are the 1368 01:08:44,832 --> 01:08:47,814 [mathias]: sort of the germanic expression of the roman 1369 01:08:47,670 --> 01:08:47,912 [zaza]: oh 1370 01:08:49,696 --> 01:08:56,183 [mathias]: soldier medallions that they would have on on their armor so what seems to happen 1371 01:08:56,443 --> 01:09:02,894 [mathias]: is that you have scandinavians who go and become mercenaries in the roman army and 1372 01:09:02,974 --> 01:09:11,248 [mathias]: then they take elements important it's from from that situation back home with them and 1373 01:09:11,308 --> 01:09:20,123 [mathias]: then they gained their own life in a new ritual and mythologic situation in scandinavia 1374 01:09:20,463 --> 01:09:26,133 [mathias]: and then become very significant for spiritual life in scandinavia and so this happens with 1375 01:09:26,193 --> 01:09:31,542 [mathias]: drinking rituals at happens with these medallions and it also has as with the development 1376 01:09:32,042 --> 01:09:38,593 [mathias]: of the odentic cult that definitely is prominent with the elite and with the warriors 1377 01:09:38,854 --> 01:09:44,463 [mathias]: in scandinavia from the four hundreds and onwards this is probably also what is the 1378 01:09:44,544 --> 01:09:49,132 [mathias]: center focus of a lot of the temple rituals that are happening in the viking 1379 01:09:49,232 --> 01:09:55,697 [mathias]: age in the seven hundred and so on adding to this we have some other 1380 01:09:57,820 --> 01:10:04,892 [mathias]: uhuhnonscandanavian description of rituals right we have adam of blaming and tit ma of masseboorg 1381 01:10:05,493 --> 01:10:14,668 [mathias]: who described these these huge rituals official rituals that happened every ninth year in tita 1382 01:10:15,109 --> 01:10:22,740 [mathias]: describes it in denmark and adam bana describes it in uhsalaand sweden now we haven't 1383 01:10:22,901 --> 01:10:31,408 [mathias]: found specifically sort of the the the evidence of these major sacrificial rituals as such 1384 01:10:32,329 --> 01:10:37,847 [mathias]: but archaeologically we can see at the site in sala that there was a lot 1385 01:10:37,907 --> 01:10:40,412 [mathias]: of ritual activity and there was a lot of 1386 01:10:41,259 --> 01:10:41,280 [zaza]: m 1387 01:10:41,273 --> 01:10:49,607 [mathias]: sacrifices going on dave you know on just one kill meet along processoal road with 1388 01:10:50,448 --> 01:10:55,357 [mathias]: pillars next to it where it looks like there was like bones around the pillars 1389 01:10:55,457 --> 01:11:01,649 [mathias]: and such which you know is to seem to be mirroring perhaps you know that 1390 01:11:02,872 --> 01:11:09,562 [mathias]: that ritual sacrifice situation so so so we do also have a a couple of 1391 01:11:09,682 --> 01:11:16,829 [mathias]: other literary accounts here and there that can help us understand um the ritual situation 1392 01:11:17,511 --> 01:11:26,101 [mathias]: at you know the question is of course did they have a ritual the same 1393 01:11:26,201 --> 01:11:32,892 [mathias]: ritual every christmas or yule as it is called in scandinavia a lot of people 1394 01:11:32,992 --> 01:11:37,119 [mathias]: would say yes of course they did the only problem with it that is the 1395 01:11:37,320 --> 01:11:44,772 [mathias]: literary uh descriptions that we have of that are actually mirroring christian rituals so we 1396 01:11:44,832 --> 01:11:53,587 [mathias]: do see some references to two as as a viking age ritual of some kind 1397 01:11:53,807 --> 01:12:02,343 [mathias]: we see for instance in a poem about how fine hair that is describing when 1398 01:12:02,424 --> 01:12:10,640 [mathias]: he when he's out bringing the country together in norway he says something like he 1399 01:12:10,680 --> 01:12:17,091 [mathias]: will have to celebrate yule on the ship or actually drink yule on this because 1400 01:12:17,531 --> 01:12:22,740 [mathias]: because he's constantly fighting somebody right that seems to be a reference to to the 1401 01:12:22,860 --> 01:12:26,326 [mathias]: yule ritual the only problem with that is that it seems that the word yule 1402 01:12:26,767 --> 01:12:33,839 [mathias]: actually could be into multiple ritual situations it's only you know later on that it 1403 01:12:34,139 --> 01:12:42,393 [mathias]: becomes attached to a ritual situation that happens in december so we don't know much 1404 01:12:42,533 --> 01:12:48,623 [mathias]: else really we can only guess in terms of like what kind of cylindrical rituals 1405 01:12:48,683 --> 01:12:53,231 [mathias]: that they have obviously they would have something right off i said they would come 1406 01:12:53,311 --> 01:12:58,480 [mathias]: back to a situation every year where they had a ritual especially for you know 1407 01:12:58,640 --> 01:13:04,812 [mathias]: blessing fields when you're sowing and and all that stuff and again for her vistas 1408 01:13:04,932 --> 01:13:10,602 [mathias]: well and and so on and so on but the literary descriptions that we're dealing 1409 01:13:10,662 --> 01:13:18,053 [mathias]: with are again very tendentious and obviously written by people who didn't exist in the 1410 01:13:18,093 --> 01:13:21,983 [mathias]: time period and only had cursory knowledge about 1411 01:13:22,246 --> 01:13:22,860 [zaza]: hm 1412 01:13:22,384 --> 01:13:24,008 [mathias]: what what it actually would have been like 1413 01:13:25,842 --> 01:13:31,536 [zaza]: no we're jumping back and forth a little bit but you mentioned alcohol and psychodelic 1414 01:13:31,676 --> 01:13:32,438 [zaza]: imri imagery 1415 01:13:33,457 --> 01:13:33,477 [mathias]: m 1416 01:13:33,530 --> 01:13:34,952 [zaza]: and that made me think 1417 01:13:35,349 --> 01:13:35,370 [mathias]: m 1418 01:13:35,453 --> 01:13:41,683 [zaza]: about that old trope that we see in all of the video games and movies 1419 01:13:41,280 --> 01:13:42,090 [mathias]: yeah 1420 01:13:41,823 --> 01:13:43,807 [zaza]: and you know popular culture 1421 01:13:43,560 --> 01:13:44,220 [mathias]: yeah 1422 01:13:44,007 --> 01:13:46,111 [zaza]: of the barzurker bazarker 1423 01:13:46,198 --> 01:13:46,770 [mathias]: hm 1424 01:13:46,211 --> 01:13:47,172 [zaza]: mode where 1425 01:13:47,500 --> 01:13:47,642 [mathias]: yeah 1426 01:13:47,974 --> 01:13:50,518 [zaza]: warriors go into a rage not being 1427 01:13:50,342 --> 01:13:50,566 [mathias]: yes 1428 01:13:50,939 --> 01:13:55,246 [zaza]: aware of what's going on around them so is that a cliche or is that 1429 01:13:55,947 --> 01:13:59,362 [zaza]: an actual thing let's clear it up once and for all 1430 01:14:00,776 --> 01:14:09,891 [mathias]: um so the origin of the idea that that these basurkers were high on mushrooms 1431 01:14:10,291 --> 01:14:18,104 [mathias]: and especially the what is it cultedamanita i think it is the red one with 1432 01:14:18,144 --> 01:14:18,966 [mathias]: all the white dots on 1433 01:14:19,243 --> 01:14:19,890 [zaza]: hm 1434 01:14:20,288 --> 01:14:20,468 [mathias]: is 1435 01:14:20,830 --> 01:14:22,220 [zaza]: magic mushrooms in a way right 1436 01:14:22,472 --> 01:14:22,632 [mathias]: well 1437 01:14:22,644 --> 01:14:22,764 [zaza]: yeah 1438 01:14:22,692 --> 01:14:24,054 [mathias]: no that's not a magic mushroom 1439 01:14:24,040 --> 01:14:24,161 [zaza]: it's 1440 01:14:24,134 --> 01:14:24,275 [mathias]: that 1441 01:14:24,202 --> 01:14:24,323 [zaza]: not 1442 01:14:24,395 --> 01:14:24,495 [mathias]: one 1443 01:14:24,847 --> 01:14:25,614 [zaza]: it's poisonous 1444 01:14:25,417 --> 01:14:27,841 [mathias]: that that's that's a mushroom that will you right 1445 01:14:27,681 --> 01:14:28,307 [zaza]: okay wow 1446 01:14:29,505 --> 01:14:29,625 [mathias]: so 1447 01:14:30,030 --> 01:14:30,900 [zaza]: oh 1448 01:14:31,900 --> 01:14:33,685 [mathias]: i will come back to the magic mushrooms in a bit 1449 01:14:35,377 --> 01:14:36,463 [zaza]: fantastic can't wait 1450 01:14:37,884 --> 01:14:46,158 [mathias]: so the the idea that they would you know somehow in just this mushroom and 1451 01:14:46,198 --> 01:14:52,428 [mathias]: then go into pus rkorage comes from a seventeenth century scholar in denmark named thomas 1452 01:14:52,488 --> 01:15:00,522 [mathias]: botolin who is write he's like writing this thesis on odin's awesome a danish warriors 1453 01:15:00,582 --> 01:15:02,385 [mathias]: it's very important that they're danish because he's 1454 01:15:02,340 --> 01:15:03,270 [zaza]: yeah 1455 01:15:02,445 --> 01:15:06,311 [mathias]: like screw the swedes were real the most cool scandinavians and 1456 01:15:06,553 --> 01:15:07,301 [zaza]: obviously yeah 1457 01:15:07,333 --> 01:15:08,395 [mathias]: you know on the other 1458 01:15:08,261 --> 01:15:08,487 [zaza]: yes 1459 01:15:08,435 --> 01:15:09,216 [mathias]: side you know 1460 01:15:09,120 --> 01:15:09,343 [zaza]: yeah 1461 01:15:09,356 --> 01:15:12,823 [mathias]: we have swedish scholars saying same thing about swedes and 1462 01:15:13,050 --> 01:15:13,661 [zaza]: oh 1463 01:15:13,144 --> 01:15:13,965 [mathias]: screw the danes right 1464 01:15:14,160 --> 01:15:14,816 [zaza]: ye 1465 01:15:15,248 --> 01:15:18,615 [mathias]: it's just like this ridiculous propaganda 1466 01:15:18,662 --> 01:15:18,902 [zaza]: sounds 1467 01:15:18,716 --> 01:15:18,976 [mathias]: rival 1468 01:15:18,963 --> 01:15:19,103 [zaza]: like 1469 01:15:19,076 --> 01:15:19,297 [mathias]: reason 1470 01:15:19,143 --> 01:15:21,188 [zaza]: a very fruitful scholarly endeavor 1471 01:15:21,890 --> 01:15:22,090 [mathias]: right 1472 01:15:22,260 --> 01:15:22,502 [zaza]: yeah 1473 01:15:23,613 --> 01:15:23,773 [mathias]: um 1474 01:15:23,778 --> 01:15:23,940 [zaza]: yeah 1475 01:15:24,154 --> 01:15:30,945 [mathias]: and he claims that that is probably that is what they would do to go 1476 01:15:31,065 --> 01:15:35,061 [mathias]: into a circle rates to eat these mushroom and in jest them in some 1477 01:15:35,010 --> 01:15:35,171 [zaza]: okay 1478 01:15:35,101 --> 01:15:35,202 [mathias]: way 1479 01:15:35,211 --> 01:15:40,299 [zaza]: but first of all is it established that this barzurkarage actually existed or is that 1480 01:15:40,986 --> 01:15:41,106 [mathias]: no 1481 01:15:41,160 --> 01:15:42,447 [zaza]: also open to interpretation 1482 01:15:42,870 --> 01:15:44,653 [mathias]: that is also open to interpretation 1483 01:15:44,160 --> 01:15:44,362 [zaza]: okay 1484 01:15:44,933 --> 01:15:49,380 [mathias]: but there was some reasonable reasons to believe that that there was 1485 01:15:49,620 --> 01:15:49,822 [zaza]: okay 1486 01:15:50,643 --> 01:15:57,803 [mathias]: maybe not be circle rage but be circle dance m a colleague and friend of 1487 01:15:57,863 --> 01:16:04,434 [mathias]: mine named roderick dale has written a thesis on on bercircle age and his theory 1488 01:16:04,734 --> 01:16:08,922 [mathias]: is that it's actually like ritual war dances that we are dealing with you is 1489 01:16:09,022 --> 01:16:11,106 [mathias]: not you know a frenzy in war as such 1490 01:16:11,830 --> 01:16:13,474 [zaza]: so it's more like a haka of the maori 1491 01:16:13,620 --> 01:16:13,820 [mathias]: yes 1492 01:16:13,635 --> 01:16:14,698 [zaza]: people all right 1493 01:16:14,581 --> 01:16:18,969 [mathias]: yeah and to some to some extent like and this this is again very natural 1494 01:16:19,049 --> 01:16:21,332 [mathias]: because we see that with warriors across the planet 1495 01:16:21,580 --> 01:16:21,701 [zaza]: yeah 1496 01:16:21,673 --> 01:16:21,813 [mathias]: right 1497 01:16:21,882 --> 01:16:22,023 [zaza]: yeah 1498 01:16:22,855 --> 01:16:27,583 [mathias]: you have war dances you you have rituals that that will pyke you up for 1499 01:16:27,703 --> 01:16:32,731 [mathias]: war right and of course the scandinavians would have that too so that that makes 1500 01:16:32,812 --> 01:16:38,922 [mathias]: perfect sense um what doesn't make sense is to go into battle high on mushrooms 1501 01:16:38,940 --> 01:16:39,161 [zaza]: yeah 1502 01:16:40,024 --> 01:16:41,887 [mathias]: it just doesn't make sense like 1503 01:16:42,270 --> 01:16:43,290 [zaza]: yeah 1504 01:16:42,928 --> 01:16:46,835 [mathias]: why would you want to do this in the first place you want to get 1505 01:16:46,875 --> 01:16:54,046 [mathias]: your drennan pumping so that you are really uh you know your senses are heightened 1506 01:16:54,306 --> 01:16:55,628 [mathias]: right that's what the journal is for 1507 01:16:55,510 --> 01:16:56,011 [zaza]: yeah i read 1508 01:16:56,009 --> 01:16:56,169 [mathias]: right 1509 01:16:56,051 --> 01:16:58,397 [zaza]: that they drank boos before and that also 1510 01:16:58,384 --> 01:16:58,607 [mathias]: yeah 1511 01:16:58,517 --> 01:17:00,341 [zaza]: didn't make a lot of sense like who would 1512 01:17:00,326 --> 01:17:00,448 [mathias]: no 1513 01:17:00,401 --> 01:17:02,726 [zaza]: go completely smashed into battle 1514 01:17:02,670 --> 01:17:03,350 [mathias]: exactly 1515 01:17:02,867 --> 01:17:03,468 [zaza]: or am i wrong 1516 01:17:05,913 --> 01:17:06,194 [mathias]: you know 1517 01:17:06,450 --> 01:17:06,671 [zaza]: yeah 1518 01:17:06,674 --> 01:17:13,350 [mathias]: you can't discount that some might have been drunk or no high on something going 1519 01:17:13,410 --> 01:17:18,218 [mathias]: into war but then i doubt that that would be in a ritual situation that 1520 01:17:18,298 --> 01:17:22,305 [mathias]: that that they would have ingested that i'm sure that that would have been you 1521 01:17:22,345 --> 01:17:26,532 [mathias]: know to to deal with their nerves or something like that just like you see 1522 01:17:26,592 --> 01:17:31,500 [mathias]: it with modern warfare you see soldiers high on cocaine and and and that kind 1523 01:17:31,540 --> 01:17:34,305 [mathias]: of stuff and those are usually the ones who die right 1524 01:17:34,980 --> 01:17:35,940 [zaza]: oh 1525 01:17:35,126 --> 01:17:40,936 [mathias]: like those are the ones to die to die it's because the there's the sensitivity 1526 01:17:40,976 --> 01:17:46,225 [mathias]: towards what happens in war is of course gold 1527 01:17:45,980 --> 01:17:46,262 [zaza]: lesson 1528 01:17:46,946 --> 01:17:55,500 [mathias]: yeah and and you there's there's much higher risk of making mistakes of various kinds 1529 01:17:55,580 --> 01:18:01,490 [mathias]: when you're you know you're not fully present right so that a in terms of 1530 01:18:01,550 --> 01:18:09,223 [mathias]: war translates to dying quicker you know so i doubt that these these scandnavian warriors 1531 01:18:09,323 --> 01:18:12,409 [mathias]: would have ingested any kind of psychotropic 1532 01:18:15,462 --> 01:18:20,982 [mathias]: drinks or foods or whatever but and then we get back to the magic mushrooms 1533 01:18:21,944 --> 01:18:29,657 [mathias]: magic mushrooms so the siven mushrooms they grow in cow dung in the fields of 1534 01:18:29,737 --> 01:18:30,598 [mathias]: scandinavia as 1535 01:18:30,620 --> 01:18:30,821 [zaza]: oh 1536 01:18:30,658 --> 01:18:31,981 [mathias]: they do in many the places 1537 01:18:31,725 --> 01:18:31,886 [zaza]: wow 1538 01:18:32,541 --> 01:18:32,742 [mathias]: the 1539 01:18:33,011 --> 01:18:33,534 [zaza]: another reason 1540 01:18:33,423 --> 01:18:33,683 [mathias]: pretty 1541 01:18:33,594 --> 01:18:33,976 [zaza]: to visit 1542 01:18:35,026 --> 01:18:37,850 [mathias]: i guess if you want to go out take 1543 01:18:38,130 --> 01:18:39,300 [zaza]: yeah 1544 01:18:38,732 --> 01:18:46,611 [mathias]: picked up so so what i'm saying is that it is silisimon mushrooms are pretty 1545 01:18:46,711 --> 01:18:53,807 [mathias]: easily available actually in scandinavia as they are elsewhere in human 1546 01:18:53,927 --> 01:18:54,093 [zaza]: yeah 1547 01:18:53,968 --> 01:19:03,243 [mathias]: climates um um and what we also know from ark article finds especially from these 1548 01:19:03,283 --> 01:19:11,777 [mathias]: very special grades of what we could call religious female religious authorities in particular we 1549 01:19:11,877 --> 01:19:16,472 [mathias]: find henbane and we also find cannabis in some of them so 1550 01:19:16,910 --> 01:19:17,010 [zaza]: are 1551 01:19:16,914 --> 01:19:16,994 [mathias]: we 1552 01:19:17,050 --> 01:19:17,131 [zaza]: you 1553 01:19:17,115 --> 01:19:17,296 [mathias]: know 1554 01:19:17,211 --> 01:19:17,511 [zaza]: telling 1555 01:19:17,436 --> 01:19:17,577 [mathias]: that 1556 01:19:17,571 --> 01:19:22,077 [zaza]: me excuse me are you telling me that the vikings were rolling up a big 1557 01:19:22,157 --> 01:19:23,399 [zaza]: fat one from time to time 1558 01:19:24,766 --> 01:19:25,850 [mathias]: probably yeah yeah 1559 01:19:26,190 --> 01:19:29,326 [zaza]: that's that's going to be breaking news somewhere tomorrow 1560 01:19:30,281 --> 01:19:30,762 [mathias]: well you know 1561 01:19:30,951 --> 01:19:31,741 [zaza]: very unexpected 1562 01:19:31,283 --> 01:19:41,468 [mathias]: canocanapist has been used you know across eurasia for millennia right so so it's not 1563 01:19:43,302 --> 01:19:50,894 [mathias]: it's not a in that sense particularly surprising to find it grave in scandinavia um 1564 01:19:51,335 --> 01:19:57,346 [mathias]: i think there are two graves where we found cannabis it's in the and m 1565 01:19:58,269 --> 01:20:04,970 [mathias]: m of course they used different kinds of psypsychotropic threat i'd say that these magic 1566 01:20:05,030 --> 01:20:11,401 [mathias]: mushrooms and canabists aside from alcohol were probably the things that would use because they 1567 01:20:11,682 --> 01:20:16,970 [mathias]: are easily available to them in the sense that mushrooms that grow right out there 1568 01:20:18,132 --> 01:20:25,723 [mathias]: of course you know people in skandinavia would know qualities of those mushrooms just like 1569 01:20:25,743 --> 01:20:29,146 [mathias]: they would know which plants thet they could eat and which plants would be poisonous 1570 01:20:29,527 --> 01:20:34,453 [mathias]: and so on and so forth right so that's something that i would assume that 1571 01:20:34,493 --> 01:20:41,986 [mathias]: they would have used for different purposes probably in ritual um and canabist seems to 1572 01:20:42,046 --> 01:20:45,292 [mathias]: have been present at least with some individuals 1573 01:20:45,210 --> 01:20:46,050 [zaza]: yeah 1574 01:20:45,433 --> 01:20:45,573 [mathias]: who 1575 01:20:46,620 --> 01:20:47,298 [zaza]: ye 1576 01:20:47,117 --> 01:20:47,318 [mathias]: were 1577 01:20:47,370 --> 01:20:48,360 [zaza]: yeah 1578 01:20:48,090 --> 01:20:49,235 [mathias]: now very much 1579 01:20:49,140 --> 01:20:49,920 [zaza]: yeah 1580 01:20:49,295 --> 01:20:52,112 [mathias]: from from from all the other elements of 1581 01:20:52,141 --> 01:20:52,283 [zaza]: yeah 1582 01:20:52,172 --> 01:20:55,598 [mathias]: their graves where were you know ritual specialists 1583 01:20:55,355 --> 01:20:55,458 [zaza]: oh 1584 01:20:55,798 --> 01:21:00,346 [mathias]: of some kind so yeah there was some uses of this but i doubt that 1585 01:21:00,426 --> 01:21:01,387 [mathias]: it was in warfare 1586 01:21:01,074 --> 01:21:01,156 [zaza]: ah 1587 01:21:01,708 --> 01:21:09,761 [mathias]: it was probably more in rituals that required some kind of again for lack of 1588 01:21:09,882 --> 01:21:15,193 [mathias]: better word quote quote shamonic travel or journeying or some i like that 1589 01:21:15,230 --> 01:21:15,813 [zaza]: fascinating 1590 01:21:16,390 --> 01:21:16,532 [mathias]: yeah 1591 01:21:16,577 --> 01:21:20,400 [zaza]: and very unexpected again yeah 1592 01:21:19,432 --> 01:21:23,842 [mathias]: well i'm glad that i can expand your knowledge on on vikings 1593 01:21:24,440 --> 01:21:30,771 [zaza]: thank you super grateful that's yeah that's i mean that's bragging 1594 01:21:30,480 --> 01:21:30,500 [mathias]: m 1595 01:21:30,831 --> 01:21:32,394 [zaza]: material right there you know 1596 01:21:32,310 --> 01:21:32,531 [mathias]: oh 1597 01:21:32,594 --> 01:21:35,719 [zaza]: like next time i'm grabbing a bear with a couple of my mates i'm going 1598 01:21:35,739 --> 01:21:38,275 [zaza]: to be i bet you didn't know this about the vikings 1599 01:21:38,160 --> 01:21:38,461 [mathias]: yeah 1600 01:21:39,891 --> 01:21:44,979 [zaza]: um anyway we touched upon it a little bit already it seems like the vikings 1601 01:21:44,633 --> 01:21:44,653 [mathias]: a 1602 01:21:45,059 --> 01:21:46,241 [zaza]: are having a big moment 1603 01:21:46,521 --> 01:21:46,602 [mathias]: oh 1604 01:21:46,582 --> 01:21:52,091 [zaza]: in pop culture right now we have the lost kingdom the show plant video games 1605 01:21:52,211 --> 01:21:58,081 [zaza]: such a sky rim all the marvel movies lord of the rings obviously contains some 1606 01:21:58,141 --> 01:22:00,565 [zaza]: of this north folk full lore as well 1607 01:22:01,237 --> 01:22:01,770 [mathias]: hm 1608 01:22:01,947 --> 01:22:05,354 [zaza]: i mentioned the vice is the t v show also why do you think this 1609 01:22:05,454 --> 01:22:06,036 [zaza]: resurgence 1610 01:22:05,520 --> 01:22:05,802 [mathias]: yeah 1611 01:22:06,176 --> 01:22:07,038 [zaza]: is happening right now 1612 01:22:08,823 --> 01:22:17,245 [mathias]: um the time was right i think so you know in to a scandinavian it's 1613 01:22:17,486 --> 01:22:18,047 [mathias]: it's actually 1614 01:22:19,290 --> 01:22:19,532 [zaza]: oh 1615 01:22:19,569 --> 01:22:27,085 [mathias]: it's not new right because we to us the viking history is ever present everywhere 1616 01:22:26,940 --> 01:22:28,080 [zaza]: oh 1617 01:22:27,246 --> 01:22:31,192 [mathias]: all the time actually to the extent where you can get sick of it 1618 01:22:32,010 --> 01:22:33,750 [zaza]: yeah 1619 01:22:32,193 --> 01:22:35,116 [mathias]: and you're like did we not have other historical time periods 1620 01:22:34,980 --> 01:22:35,970 [zaza]: yeah 1621 01:22:35,136 --> 01:22:35,977 [mathias]: that we could talk about 1622 01:22:38,980 --> 01:22:44,613 [mathias]: but you know if you look at the nineties in terms of like what did 1623 01:22:44,733 --> 01:22:53,047 [mathias]: pop culture attach itself to historically in europe well it was the celts right so 1624 01:22:53,248 --> 01:23:01,001 [mathias]: you have brave and you know a lot of other sort of fictions about insellacelts 1625 01:23:01,742 --> 01:23:06,992 [mathias]: aluation and so on and and they become sort of like the happy goof uh 1626 01:23:07,050 --> 01:23:08,010 [zaza]: oh 1627 01:23:07,654 --> 01:23:14,542 [mathias]: historical cousins that that we like to watch on t v also because you know 1628 01:23:14,903 --> 01:23:20,052 [mathias]: here in the u s the irish had their movement so to speak of getting 1629 01:23:20,492 --> 01:23:31,740 [mathias]: rectified as a population group being the sex largest efhanicity essentially in the us in 1630 01:23:31,780 --> 01:23:38,091 [mathias]: terms of heritage the irish uh well started out in a in a in a 1631 01:23:38,151 --> 01:23:45,904 [mathias]: pretty bad place being you know oppressed in the s um and then have gradually 1632 01:23:46,064 --> 01:23:53,457 [mathias]: become more and more integrated into what what is the sense of like american right 1633 01:23:54,238 --> 01:23:57,644 [mathias]: and with that also these narratives it milk gibson 1634 01:23:58,170 --> 01:23:58,351 [zaza]: yeah 1635 01:23:59,026 --> 01:23:59,326 [mathias]: making 1636 01:23:59,198 --> 01:23:59,682 [zaza]: freedom 1637 01:23:59,607 --> 01:24:01,029 [mathias]: brave freedom 1638 01:24:01,250 --> 01:24:01,392 [zaza]: yep 1639 01:24:01,430 --> 01:24:07,700 [mathias]: exactly and you know that that story mirrors so much of american mythology you know 1640 01:24:09,684 --> 01:24:11,046 [mathias]: it makes perfect sense in that way 1641 01:24:11,430 --> 01:24:11,811 [zaza]: also he's 1642 01:24:11,827 --> 01:24:11,947 [mathias]: and 1643 01:24:11,851 --> 01:24:13,777 [zaza]: like australian he's not scottish right 1644 01:24:14,710 --> 01:24:17,556 [mathias]: yeah he's australian right and uh 1645 01:24:17,920 --> 01:24:18,241 [zaza]: but he's 1646 01:24:18,137 --> 01:24:18,318 [mathias]: yeah 1647 01:24:18,302 --> 01:24:18,342 [zaza]: an 1648 01:24:18,438 --> 01:24:18,578 [mathias]: he's 1649 01:24:18,462 --> 01:24:20,191 [zaza]: american super star yea 1650 01:24:20,401 --> 01:24:22,829 [mathias]: he's an american super star he has scottish background 1651 01:24:23,050 --> 01:24:24,032 [zaza]: okay okay i didn't 1652 01:24:23,893 --> 01:24:23,973 [mathias]: and 1653 01:24:24,052 --> 01:24:24,413 [zaza]: know that i 1654 01:24:24,576 --> 01:24:24,736 [mathias]: he's 1655 01:24:24,713 --> 01:24:25,134 [zaza]: apologize 1656 01:24:24,937 --> 01:24:24,957 [mathias]: a 1657 01:24:25,194 --> 01:24:26,918 [zaza]: to me gibson for doubting his heritage 1658 01:24:27,512 --> 01:24:28,754 [mathias]: and and he's catholic 1659 01:24:29,413 --> 01:24:29,556 [zaza]: yeah 1660 01:24:29,455 --> 01:24:36,307 [mathias]: so so so all of this comes nicely together for him to make a cute 1661 01:24:36,387 --> 01:24:46,294 [mathias]: little celtic package right and um and so then we have a lull in in 1662 01:24:46,434 --> 01:24:52,184 [mathias]: historical fiction for a little bit in the early two thousands um nineteen ninety nine 1663 01:24:52,504 --> 01:24:55,189 [mathias]: is the year for awesome movies 1664 01:24:55,492 --> 01:24:55,858 [zaza]: matrix 1665 01:24:56,551 --> 01:25:02,220 [mathias]: yes for instance fight club and so on but they're not historical right 1666 01:25:02,180 --> 01:25:02,323 [zaza]: yeah 1667 01:25:03,062 --> 01:25:11,193 [mathias]: and that's when we then see attention turning towards vikings and vikings becoming the new 1668 01:25:13,755 --> 01:25:16,037 [mathias]: favorite historical child of europe in 1669 01:25:19,301 --> 01:25:24,009 [mathias]: i wouldn't say hollywood fiction because it's not really hollywood fiction but it's it's it's 1670 01:25:24,349 --> 01:25:28,656 [mathias]: fiction that mirrors hollywood in a sense right that's what the t v show vikings 1671 01:25:28,757 --> 01:25:33,164 [mathias]: is and so on we have a rest surgeons of interest in vikings in england 1672 01:25:33,344 --> 01:25:37,752 [mathias]: in particular and all of a sudden this also goes hand in hand with this 1673 01:25:38,092 --> 01:25:43,040 [mathias]: sense of like scandinavia being the best the best part of the world something like 1674 01:25:43,080 --> 01:25:48,670 [mathias]: that to a lot of anglophomes in general like you go into a book store 1675 01:25:48,750 --> 01:25:54,680 [mathias]: in london and you find a million books about all kinds of scandinavian concept an 1676 01:25:54,800 --> 01:25:57,825 [mathias]: it like sknaamnswe're just like seeing random 1677 01:25:57,540 --> 01:25:57,763 [zaza]: oh 1678 01:25:57,905 --> 01:25:59,768 [mathias]: words that we use on a daily basis 1679 01:25:59,700 --> 01:25:59,921 [zaza]: oh 1680 01:25:59,949 --> 01:26:05,037 [mathias]: all of a sudden becoming like this almost like a spiritual concept in a book 1681 01:26:05,638 --> 01:26:11,227 [mathias]: about how you can best relax and how you can best enjoy nature and all 1682 01:26:11,287 --> 01:26:17,398 [mathias]: that stuff and and and it's just like a feedback loop right where you know 1683 01:26:17,738 --> 01:26:19,541 [mathias]: they keep punching out 1684 01:26:19,590 --> 01:26:19,770 [zaza]: oh 1685 01:26:19,621 --> 01:26:25,631 [mathias]: these books and and other stories about scandinavia and how scandinavia is so awesome and 1686 01:26:25,671 --> 01:26:26,312 [mathias]: how scandinavia 1687 01:26:26,340 --> 01:26:26,582 [zaza]: oh 1688 01:26:26,353 --> 01:26:31,962 [mathias]: has figured everything out in blababablblah especially in mir hang in places like the u 1689 01:26:32,182 --> 01:26:33,765 [mathias]: s the fact that 1690 01:26:34,020 --> 01:26:34,244 [zaza]: oh 1691 01:26:34,446 --> 01:26:40,236 [mathias]: doesn't seem like people have figured anything out these days socially at least so so 1692 01:26:40,917 --> 01:26:43,120 [mathias]: so it's a nice thing to dream about right 1693 01:26:43,260 --> 01:26:43,484 [zaza]: oh 1694 01:26:43,741 --> 01:26:45,645 [mathias]: and then you can also dream about 1695 01:26:45,540 --> 01:26:46,140 [zaza]: yeah 1696 01:26:46,185 --> 01:26:46,927 [mathias]: that passed 1697 01:26:46,980 --> 01:26:48,540 [zaza]: oh 1698 01:26:47,127 --> 01:26:48,129 [mathias]: right and again 1699 01:26:49,380 --> 01:26:49,980 [zaza]: oh 1700 01:26:49,510 --> 01:26:52,195 [mathias]: you said you didn't you hadn't seen vikings but 1701 01:26:52,710 --> 01:26:52,891 [zaza]: oh 1702 01:26:52,956 --> 01:27:00,469 [mathias]: the the show vikings in many ways mirrors the american dream of immigration call it 1703 01:27:00,549 --> 01:27:01,009 [mathias]: a dream 1704 01:27:01,479 --> 01:27:01,500 [zaza]: m 1705 01:27:01,891 --> 01:27:02,292 [mathias]: you could also 1706 01:27:02,340 --> 01:27:02,562 [zaza]: oh 1707 01:27:02,352 --> 01:27:03,855 [mathias]: call the mythology essentially 1708 01:27:04,740 --> 01:27:04,946 [zaza]: oh 1709 01:27:05,558 --> 01:27:08,603 [mathias]: this the early 1710 01:27:08,745 --> 01:27:08,828 [zaza]: ah 1711 01:27:09,324 --> 01:27:15,675 [mathias]: spoiler the early situation in viking is that they're like somewhere in norway in a 1712 01:27:15,735 --> 01:27:17,738 [mathias]: place called cut cut and 1713 01:27:17,841 --> 01:27:17,942 [zaza]: ah 1714 01:27:18,780 --> 01:27:21,144 [mathias]: that's kind of hilarious because catgut is 1715 01:27:21,802 --> 01:27:21,884 [zaza]: ah 1716 01:27:21,805 --> 01:27:25,311 [mathias]: actually the sea right off the coast of 1717 01:27:25,380 --> 01:27:25,582 [zaza]: oh 1718 01:27:25,411 --> 01:27:30,139 [mathias]: jutland and it is not an original skin an avian name it's 1719 01:27:30,210 --> 01:27:30,615 [zaza]: yeah 1720 01:27:30,339 --> 01:27:33,150 [mathias]: dutch name and 1721 01:27:33,060 --> 01:27:34,590 [zaza]: oh ah 1722 01:27:34,812 --> 01:27:38,757 [mathias]: can i can i can i say vulgar words on this podcast 1723 01:27:39,262 --> 01:27:40,584 [zaza]: not only can you say them but 1724 01:27:40,740 --> 01:27:41,670 [mathias]: yeah 1725 01:27:40,864 --> 01:27:42,146 [zaza]: this this type of language 1726 01:27:42,030 --> 01:27:42,720 [mathias]: yeah 1727 01:27:42,186 --> 01:27:43,429 [zaza]: is encouraged absolutely 1728 01:27:43,400 --> 01:27:48,909 [mathias]: okay okay so the word seems to mean the ass hole of a cat 1729 01:27:50,417 --> 01:27:51,702 [zaza]: well that's oddly specific 1730 01:27:52,615 --> 01:27:57,123 [mathias]: yes it has something to do with sailing route and and narrow 1731 01:27:57,420 --> 01:27:57,763 [zaza]: uh 1732 01:27:57,443 --> 01:27:59,487 [mathias]: passages for for 1733 01:27:59,439 --> 01:27:59,460 [zaza]: h 1734 01:27:59,567 --> 01:28:03,433 [mathias]: certain ships and that kind of stuff and so the creators of the show vikings 1735 01:28:03,453 --> 01:28:06,178 [mathias]: they were like let's call the town that these vikings live 1736 01:28:06,249 --> 01:28:06,270 [zaza]: m 1737 01:28:06,258 --> 01:28:06,338 [mathias]: in 1738 01:28:06,600 --> 01:28:06,821 [zaza]: oh 1739 01:28:06,779 --> 01:28:12,615 [mathias]: katia um and i find that incredibly hilarious um but going back to what i 1740 01:28:12,655 --> 01:28:20,009 [mathias]: was talking about this this particular situation is that they're tired of raiding these poor 1741 01:28:20,149 --> 01:28:24,636 [mathias]: slaves to the east again we have the myth of like prettie prey 1742 01:28:24,540 --> 01:28:24,743 [zaza]: oh 1743 01:28:24,957 --> 01:28:26,379 [mathias]: when it comes like vikings and 1744 01:28:26,460 --> 01:28:26,683 [zaza]: yeah 1745 01:28:27,401 --> 01:28:34,573 [mathias]: and then they're like i've heard these stories about a land to the west and 1746 01:28:34,673 --> 01:28:38,199 [mathias]: then they go to the west and find england as if they 1747 01:28:38,370 --> 01:28:39,120 [zaza]: yeah 1748 01:28:38,800 --> 01:28:41,645 [mathias]: didn't exist before it's just like ridiculous 1749 01:28:42,180 --> 01:28:43,730 [zaza]: uh h yeah 1750 01:28:44,349 --> 01:28:48,596 [mathias]: the creators of the show completely glasses glass over the fact that you know those 1751 01:28:48,656 --> 01:28:49,918 [mathias]: people who become the english 1752 01:28:49,860 --> 01:28:50,082 [zaza]: oh 1753 01:28:49,999 --> 01:28:54,847 [mathias]: they come from southern scandinavia themselves that there's been cultural connections from the four hundreds 1754 01:28:54,907 --> 01:28:59,955 [mathias]: and onwards between scandinavia and the english area because of that fact 1755 01:28:59,940 --> 01:29:00,870 [zaza]: yeah 1756 01:29:00,777 --> 01:29:01,618 [mathias]: and there was never 1757 01:29:01,470 --> 01:29:01,672 [zaza]: oh 1758 01:29:01,898 --> 01:29:05,124 [mathias]: a situation where skeninavians forgot that that the british 1759 01:29:05,220 --> 01:29:05,585 [zaza]: oh 1760 01:29:05,244 --> 01:29:11,615 [mathias]: isles existed like there's always been connection between kennan british isles but here they discover 1761 01:29:11,675 --> 01:29:15,401 [mathias]: this new land in the west and this is of course mirroring this 1762 01:29:15,300 --> 01:29:16,230 [zaza]: yeah 1763 01:29:15,641 --> 01:29:16,984 [mathias]: you know myth about 1764 01:29:16,830 --> 01:29:17,093 [zaza]: yeah 1765 01:29:17,244 --> 01:29:18,646 [mathias]: europeans discovering 1766 01:29:18,148 --> 01:29:18,270 [zaza]: yeah 1767 01:29:18,827 --> 01:29:20,269 [mathias]: america as 1768 01:29:20,580 --> 01:29:20,802 [zaza]: oh 1769 01:29:20,710 --> 01:29:25,358 [mathias]: the land in the west and then it rolls on from there to you know 1770 01:29:26,820 --> 01:29:33,992 [mathias]: a narrative about scandinavians trying to colonize and being more or less successful and accumulating 1771 01:29:34,052 --> 01:29:40,662 [mathias]: more and more wealth and riches and h and status and so on creating awesome 1772 01:29:41,063 --> 01:29:50,843 [mathias]: awesome myth of that about that right so what that is is repackaging of immigration 1773 01:29:50,923 --> 01:29:58,776 [mathias]: myth to the to the americas by europeans set in the fiction 1774 01:29:59,070 --> 01:29:59,310 [zaza]: yeah 1775 01:29:59,117 --> 01:30:04,085 [mathias]: of the violent scandinavian a sort of like a white archetype i don't know if 1776 01:30:04,099 --> 01:30:04,219 [zaza]: yeah 1777 01:30:04,345 --> 01:30:11,497 [mathias]: if these the creators of the show had distinct racial intentions here 1778 01:30:11,640 --> 01:30:11,841 [zaza]: yeah 1779 01:30:11,837 --> 01:30:19,009 [mathias]: but what they're reproducing is definitely sort of like the narrative of of the why 1780 01:30:19,130 --> 01:30:20,993 [mathias]: is of white invaders 1781 01:30:21,771 --> 01:30:21,973 [zaza]: yeah 1782 01:30:21,974 --> 01:30:24,378 [mathias]: claiming the world around it right 1783 01:30:24,360 --> 01:30:24,540 [zaza]: oh 1784 01:30:25,140 --> 01:30:29,267 [mathias]: and honestly i don't think that's a good idea guys 1785 01:30:29,340 --> 01:30:31,241 [zaza]: oh yeah 1786 01:30:31,651 --> 01:30:33,634 [mathias]: what we're seeing is that that feeds 1787 01:30:33,510 --> 01:30:33,733 [zaza]: oh 1788 01:30:33,774 --> 01:30:35,637 [mathias]: into fantasies of vite 1789 01:30:35,910 --> 01:30:36,439 [zaza]: oh 1790 01:30:36,358 --> 01:30:37,500 [mathias]: supremacy here in the 1791 01:30:37,470 --> 01:30:37,693 [zaza]: oh 1792 01:30:37,580 --> 01:30:39,724 [mathias]: u s constantly 1793 01:30:39,750 --> 01:30:39,994 [zaza]: oh 1794 01:30:40,485 --> 01:30:40,585 [mathias]: so 1795 01:30:41,190 --> 01:30:41,453 [zaza]: oh 1796 01:30:41,888 --> 01:30:44,695 [mathias]: yeah again to see a viking romeo instead 1797 01:30:45,610 --> 01:30:46,713 [zaza]: okay fair enough 1798 01:30:47,712 --> 01:30:50,216 [mathias]: or if i can hippy pot smoking viking 1799 01:30:50,751 --> 01:30:52,880 [zaza]: i mean now we've paved the way for that 1800 01:30:52,770 --> 01:30:53,011 [mathias]: yeah 1801 01:30:52,961 --> 01:30:54,467 [zaza]: kind of a character at least 1802 01:30:54,357 --> 01:30:55,121 [mathias]: i guess yeah we 1803 01:30:55,120 --> 01:30:55,284 [zaza]: yeah 1804 01:30:55,182 --> 01:30:55,362 [mathias]: have 1805 01:30:56,800 --> 01:30:56,960 [zaza]: um 1806 01:30:56,940 --> 01:30:57,690 [mathias]: yeah 1807 01:30:57,581 --> 01:31:00,686 [zaza]: all right the title of this podcast is our trash so i have to ask 1808 01:31:00,766 --> 01:31:04,312 [zaza]: you something a bit more trashy at the end i mean i've already 1809 01:31:04,020 --> 01:31:04,202 [mathias]: yeah 1810 01:31:04,613 --> 01:31:06,857 [zaza]: asked you a bunch of trashy questions i feel 1811 01:31:07,290 --> 01:31:07,696 [mathias]: uh 1812 01:31:07,498 --> 01:31:13,972 [zaza]: but let's say even more true she if you find yourself at the viking party 1813 01:31:15,134 --> 01:31:21,530 [zaza]: what was the biggest for pa that you could make like what was perceived the 1814 01:31:21,671 --> 01:31:23,254 [zaza]: super cringe by 1815 01:31:23,190 --> 01:31:25,170 [mathias]: yeah 1816 01:31:23,374 --> 01:31:24,716 [zaza]: these vikings like was it 1817 01:31:25,680 --> 01:31:26,610 [mathias]: oh 1818 01:31:25,918 --> 01:31:27,241 [zaza]: far thing in public maybe 1819 01:31:27,600 --> 01:31:28,440 [mathias]: yeah 1820 01:31:27,601 --> 01:31:29,064 [zaza]: or was it telling that jokes 1821 01:31:29,610 --> 01:31:29,851 [mathias]: oh 1822 01:31:30,106 --> 01:31:36,042 [zaza]: or was it something something else completely that i mean just asking like throwing things 1823 01:31:36,122 --> 01:31:37,085 [zaza]: out out there like 1824 01:31:37,132 --> 01:31:38,652 [mathias]: yes yeah 1825 01:31:39,030 --> 01:31:42,104 [zaza]: you know that people just go dude relax that's too much 1826 01:31:43,549 --> 01:31:43,710 [mathias]: yes 1827 01:31:43,672 --> 01:31:43,875 [zaza]: that's 1828 01:31:43,791 --> 01:31:43,912 [mathias]: so 1829 01:31:43,936 --> 01:31:44,281 [zaza]: not cool 1830 01:31:45,100 --> 01:31:52,672 [mathias]: so first of all i apologize that i'm not wearing my dis track suit i 1831 01:31:52,732 --> 01:31:53,634 [mathias]: actually have one because 1832 01:31:53,460 --> 01:31:53,724 [zaza]: yeah 1833 01:31:53,714 --> 01:31:55,617 [mathias]: i'm thoroughly eurotrashe myself 1834 01:31:56,071 --> 01:31:58,605 [zaza]: next time if we get the chance to do this again yeh 1835 01:32:00,527 --> 01:32:09,557 [mathias]: so i would say actually judging from what we see in saga literature and and 1836 01:32:10,420 --> 01:32:16,498 [mathias]: and dic poetry and so on the biggest the biggest o pa is actually to 1837 01:32:16,558 --> 01:32:18,908 [mathias]: get too drunk and then start talking ship on people 1838 01:32:19,020 --> 01:32:19,464 [zaza]: oh 1839 01:32:19,970 --> 01:32:21,011 [mathias]: that is that is literally 1840 01:32:21,270 --> 01:32:21,636 [zaza]: oh 1841 01:32:21,732 --> 01:32:22,233 [mathias]: the biggest 1842 01:32:22,410 --> 01:32:23,367 [zaza]: ye 1843 01:32:23,535 --> 01:32:24,457 [mathias]: social football you can 1844 01:32:24,750 --> 01:32:25,010 [zaza]: yeah 1845 01:32:24,878 --> 01:32:31,909 [mathias]: you can commit in a viking hole um now there's there's a little funny features 1846 01:32:32,090 --> 01:32:36,878 [mathias]: is that actually seems a little backwards compared to what i just said and that 1847 01:32:36,938 --> 01:32:43,389 [mathias]: is one social situation that seems to work out a lot is actually if you're 1848 01:32:43,429 --> 01:32:47,636 [mathias]: not drunk you walk straight up to the king in the viking hall you start 1849 01:32:47,696 --> 01:32:52,745 [mathias]: insulting him um and if you can do that in poetry then he'll he'll give 1850 01:32:52,785 --> 01:32:53,206 [mathias]: you gold 1851 01:32:54,460 --> 01:32:54,520 [zaza]: so 1852 01:32:54,508 --> 01:32:54,628 [mathias]: that 1853 01:32:54,580 --> 01:32:57,548 [zaza]: you're just like spitting bars at the king basically 1854 01:32:57,470 --> 01:32:58,374 [mathias]: actly 1855 01:32:58,110 --> 01:33:01,198 [zaza]: rapping at him and then he's going to be like i've been bested 1856 01:33:02,451 --> 01:33:03,953 [mathias]: he's like yeah oh that's 1857 01:33:03,910 --> 01:33:04,090 [zaza]: that's 1858 01:33:04,033 --> 01:33:04,234 [mathias]: cool 1859 01:33:04,170 --> 01:33:04,451 [zaza]: fire 1860 01:33:04,374 --> 01:33:07,299 [mathias]: like that rhyamso 1861 01:33:05,353 --> 01:33:06,616 [zaza]: how okay 1862 01:33:07,659 --> 01:33:14,712 [mathias]: so that happens with several in several stories about icelandic it's to come to 1863 01:33:15,012 --> 01:33:15,114 [zaza]: oh 1864 01:33:15,473 --> 01:33:18,922 [mathias]: court in norway and then they're like let me just like 1865 01:33:18,750 --> 01:33:19,710 [zaza]: yeah 1866 01:33:19,202 --> 01:33:22,610 [mathias]: be cheeky with you here and then then he's like okay 1867 01:33:22,530 --> 01:33:22,792 [zaza]: oh 1868 01:33:22,930 --> 01:33:27,037 [mathias]: okay cool i like this here's the gold ring now if they continue doing it 1869 01:33:27,077 --> 01:33:30,303 [mathias]: then at one point they will find themselves exiled and not welcome 1870 01:33:30,180 --> 01:33:31,620 [zaza]: yeah 1871 01:33:30,363 --> 01:33:34,591 [mathias]: again but but it is it is interesting to see that there is this 1872 01:33:34,792 --> 01:33:34,832 [zaza]: a 1873 01:33:35,736 --> 01:33:40,804 [mathias]: m it seems to have been a culture of insulting that was acceptable 1874 01:33:41,080 --> 01:33:41,864 [zaza]: oh like roasting 1875 01:33:41,567 --> 01:33:43,591 [mathias]: but yeah yeah some 1876 01:33:43,490 --> 01:33:43,671 [zaza]: that's 1877 01:33:43,651 --> 01:33:44,032 [mathias]: roasting 1878 01:33:43,711 --> 01:33:44,112 [zaza]: so cool 1879 01:33:44,052 --> 01:33:49,522 [mathias]: that we're dealing with yeah we also find this actually in i think it's in 1880 01:33:51,067 --> 01:33:59,417 [mathias]: your dans account of the goths so that's you know roman history writing about you 1881 01:33:59,457 --> 01:34:07,630 [mathias]: know germanic tribes where where there is a situation where this happens to in um 1882 01:34:08,672 --> 01:34:15,804 [mathias]: in the court of if i remember correctly the herulian so so and and here 1883 01:34:16,084 --> 01:34:20,812 [mathias]: you know the person that happens to get really facile and angry and so on 1884 01:34:21,173 --> 01:34:26,322 [mathias]: but it seems like it was like a natural thing for people to have sort 1885 01:34:26,362 --> 01:34:29,727 [mathias]: of like a little roasting session and then we were all on good terms after 1886 01:34:29,767 --> 01:34:29,907 [mathias]: that 1887 01:34:29,820 --> 01:34:30,810 [zaza]: oh 1888 01:34:31,450 --> 01:34:31,570 [mathias]: but 1889 01:34:31,470 --> 01:34:32,370 [zaza]: yeah 1890 01:34:31,630 --> 01:34:38,402 [mathias]: yeah then in havamal the saints of the high one his particular poem that is 1891 01:34:38,502 --> 01:34:41,968 [mathias]: said in the voice of odin that gives us all the social rules of the 1892 01:34:42,008 --> 01:34:45,635 [mathias]: viking age and we can probably trust a lot of them if you ask me 1893 01:34:46,777 --> 01:34:52,404 [mathias]: he says do not get drunk or at least don't get too drunk if you 1894 01:34:52,464 --> 01:34:54,187 [mathias]: do get too drunk go to bed 1895 01:34:55,020 --> 01:34:55,262 [zaza]: oh 1896 01:34:55,289 --> 01:35:01,839 [mathias]: and when you're sitting in the company of others make sure o not trash talk 1897 01:35:01,960 --> 01:35:02,320 [mathias]: anybody 1898 01:35:02,430 --> 01:35:02,995 [zaza]: yeah 1899 01:35:03,302 --> 01:35:05,045 [mathias]: um be be polite 1900 01:35:04,710 --> 01:35:05,310 [zaza]: yeah 1901 01:35:06,167 --> 01:35:11,796 [mathias]: and also you know and when it comes to intellectual discourse you should know how 1902 01:35:11,916 --> 01:35:18,593 [mathias]: to ask and answer questions so essentially be smart about yourself you know don't don't 1903 01:35:18,713 --> 01:35:22,883 [mathias]: don't invite a fight is what he's saying so that i would say that's the 1904 01:35:22,944 --> 01:35:24,967 [mathias]: biggest social footpath that we are dealing with 1905 01:35:25,971 --> 01:35:28,455 [zaza]: oh this was such an awesome conversation 1906 01:35:29,425 --> 01:35:29,940 [mathias]: yeah 1907 01:35:29,517 --> 01:35:32,101 [zaza]: i honestly at least for myself i can say that these 1908 01:35:32,010 --> 01:35:32,212 [mathias]: oh 1909 01:35:32,141 --> 01:35:33,844 [zaza]: were the vikings that i never had 1910 01:35:34,260 --> 01:35:34,463 [mathias]: oh 1911 01:35:34,385 --> 01:35:36,669 [zaza]: the chance to meet before so 1912 01:35:36,740 --> 01:35:36,903 [mathias]: that's 1913 01:35:36,769 --> 01:35:38,992 [zaza]: thank for that professor 1914 01:35:38,662 --> 01:35:38,966 [mathias]: awesome 1915 01:35:39,092 --> 01:35:39,413 [zaza]: northwick 1916 01:35:39,229 --> 01:35:39,553 [mathias]: thank you 1917 01:35:39,533 --> 01:35:41,155 [zaza]: where can people get 1918 01:35:41,160 --> 01:35:41,462 [mathias]: oh 1919 01:35:41,235 --> 01:35:43,679 [zaza]: familiar with your work you have a podcast of your own right 1920 01:35:44,290 --> 01:35:49,655 [mathias]: yes i have the nordic mythology podcast that i do with co host daniel ferrand 1921 01:35:50,156 --> 01:35:56,985 [mathias]: the owner of the company of horns odin we we we sent out weekly by 1922 01:35:57,085 --> 01:36:05,559 [mathias]: weekly episodes where we talk about nook mythology viking age we talk with scholars with 1923 01:36:06,180 --> 01:36:13,118 [mathias]: cultural figures and tattoo artist so all kinds of people who have something invested in 1924 01:36:13,198 --> 01:36:22,158 [mathias]: it time period um and you can also find me on one social media platform 1925 01:36:22,219 --> 01:36:26,466 [mathias]: and that's instagram you just type in my name and you can see the madness 1926 01:36:28,110 --> 01:36:28,740 [zaza]: yeah 1927 01:36:30,012 --> 01:36:34,098 [mathias]: yeah aside from that i sometimes you know i have a website that's also just 1928 01:36:34,179 --> 01:36:41,391 [mathias]: my name dot com um where i sometimes put out a blog post out something 1929 01:36:41,451 --> 01:36:46,366 [mathias]: that interests me so so yeah that's generally where people can find me 1930 01:36:47,240 --> 01:36:51,805 [zaza]: oh that's that's super cool thanks again and i hope we we really have a 1931 01:36:51,845 --> 01:36:55,269 [zaza]: chance to repeat this in the in the near future 1932 01:36:55,760 --> 01:36:57,263 [mathias]: yeah i would love that and 1933 01:36:57,221 --> 01:36:57,382 [zaza]: right 1934 01:36:57,303 --> 01:36:57,544 [mathias]: thank you 1935 01:36:57,543 --> 01:36:57,805 [zaza]: awesome 1936 01:36:57,584 --> 01:36:58,446 [mathias]: so much for inviting me 1937 01:36:59,182 --> 01:36:59,731 [zaza]: absolute pleasure 1938 01:37:00,360 --> 01:37:01,050 [mathias]: yeah