Latest / QUESTION EVERYTHING / Eve Rodsky: The Relationship Formula– Four Steps to a Happier Partnership and Avoiding Toxic Time Messages (Part One)

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Eve Rodsky: The Relationship Formula– Four Steps to a Happier Partnership and Avoiding Toxic Time Messages (Part One) · QUESTION EVERYTHING

0:00
Speaker 1: The following podcast is a Dear media production.
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Speaker 2: Big Things Happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
0:11
Speaker 2: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe, and each week my guests
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Speaker 2: and I have conversations that put a new spin on pretty.
0:19
Speaker 3: This is pretty smart.
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Speaker 2: Ev Rodsky is known as the Marie Condo of relationships.
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Speaker 2: Harvard educated lawyer, Eve's expertise helped high net worth families
0:35
Speaker 2: and charitable foundations determine their best practices for operations and governance.
0:40
Speaker 2: Her professional life was thriving, but one day Eve was
0:43
Speaker 2: hit with the realization that her most important organization, her home,
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Speaker 2: was wildly imbalanced. She says she was taking on the
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Speaker 2: majority of household responsibilities as a working mom, and doing
0:56
Speaker 2: so was leaving her overwhelmed and resentful.
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Speaker 3: She wasn't alone.
1:01
Speaker 2: Women do two thirds of what it takes to run
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Speaker 2: a home and family, and that stat was recorded pre pandemic.
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Speaker 2: Just like all the best books and movements, change starts
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Speaker 2: with one person saying I've had enough, and that is
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Speaker 2: exactly what Eve.
1:16
Speaker 3: Did you know?
1:17
Speaker 2: Gloria Steinem has always said women will not be equal
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Speaker 2: until men do equal work at home. How do we
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Speaker 2: realistically make this a reality. Eve has a formula. I
1:35
Speaker 2: want to start with something that I found just so wonderful,
1:39
Speaker 2: which is that your college thesis was about the appropriation
1:44
Speaker 2: of hip hop culture.
1:45
Speaker 1: Yes, it was. I can't believe you found that. That's amazing.
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Speaker 2: Well, you were so ahead of your time. What drew
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Speaker 2: you to writing about that?
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Speaker 4: Such a great question, and actually no one's ever asked
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Speaker 4: me that really, So I really appreciate you under standing
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Speaker 4: that my values in this area of justice, whether it
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Speaker 4: be gender or racial justice, have been a through line
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Speaker 4: of my life, really since I grew up with a
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Speaker 4: single mother who's a professor of social justice at Hunter
2:15
Speaker 4: College School of Social Work in New York City. But
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Speaker 4: for me, it was an understanding of what it looked
2:23
Speaker 4: like to grow up in the Lower East Side Alphabet
2:28
Speaker 4: city of Manhattan in the eighties and nineties. It was
2:32
Speaker 4: a hard place to grow up. We were in the
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Speaker 4: middle of the AIDS epidemic. We had heroin addicts. The
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Speaker 4: biggest Methodone clinic was on our corner, so we would
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Speaker 4: have Heroin and methodone users sleeping right on our stoop
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Speaker 4: of where I grew up. There was a understanding that
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Speaker 4: something was happening. It felt like a really robust and
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Speaker 4: interesting time. At the same point, what I was noticing
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Speaker 4: was that a lot of kids, especially I think Jewish kids,
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Speaker 4: because I think there's a lot of pairings of a
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Speaker 4: lot of Black America and Jewish America throughout the Civil
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Speaker 4: Rights movement. People around me in my community, which was
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Speaker 4: mostly Black and Jewish, were resonating with this new culture
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Speaker 4: or new to us in the early nineties that was
3:23
Speaker 4: coming up. But then outside of our circles, which felt
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Speaker 4: more organic because we were living at least black urban
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Speaker 4: reality adjacent in those communities, I was noticing a lot
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Speaker 4: of the people who were coming to parties or clubs
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Speaker 4: who were definitely not Black urban reality adjacent, were also
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Speaker 4: feeling moved by the hip hop movement. And I just
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Speaker 4: thought it was such an interesting question to explore, which
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Speaker 4: was then in the nineties, that really the authenticity and
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Speaker 4: the growth of hip hop is an expression of black
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Speaker 4: urban reality, especially in America then. And how was it
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Speaker 4: that white male, privileged kids, teenagers and young adults could
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Speaker 4: feel that they were part of that community if they
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Speaker 4: did not have the pinnacle of what that community was about,
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Speaker 4: which was that they lived in a black urban reality.
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Speaker 4: And so what I saw was that they adopted markers
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Speaker 4: of hip hop culture that would instead show that they
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Speaker 4: were part of that community without actually having to have
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Speaker 4: the lived experience of that community, which was African American
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Speaker 4: vernacular English, the clothes, the music. A version of misogyny,
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Speaker 4: to be honest, was there as well, and other elements
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Speaker 4: that I talked about in five five hundred pages.
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Speaker 3: Can we get a copy of that?
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Speaker 4: Oh my god, Yes, yes, I don't think it's been
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Speaker 4: Allison's the nineties, but I do have a skin copy
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Speaker 4: and absolutely, really.
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Speaker 1: I would really love to share it.
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Speaker 3: Thank you.
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Speaker 2: One of the other elements of your upbringing that reading
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Speaker 2: both of your books, I just couldn't help but think
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Speaker 2: informed your work entirely was that you grew up with
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Speaker 2: a single mom and you saw how much she had
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Speaker 2: to do. Will you tell us a little bit more
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Speaker 2: about your upbringing?
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Speaker 4: Absolutely, thank you for again asking these questions. I don't
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Speaker 4: often get to really talk about my mother that much,
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Speaker 4: but she's a huge, huge influence on my life, and
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Speaker 4: I think I spent the thirty years blaming her, and
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Speaker 4: I said to her, now I'll make it up for
5:40
Speaker 4: praising her. But part of the and her blaming herself.
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Speaker 4: To be honest, I mean, I think that was the
5:47
Speaker 4: dynamic of invisible work of childcare and housework assumptions was
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Speaker 4: for her. She did everything different than her parents. She
5:57
Speaker 4: was a Syrian Jewish immigrant born of immigrant parents that
6:03
Speaker 4: grew up in Brooklyn, and she was told from an
6:05
Speaker 4: early age that education did not matter to her, that
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Speaker 4: that wasn't going to be her path, that her path
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Speaker 4: was marriage. It was marriage at seventeen to a Sephardic
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Speaker 4: Jewish man that was going to be at least ten
6:19
Speaker 4: years older than her. And she rejected that narrative, and
6:24
Speaker 4: she got her PhD. And she left her community, and
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Speaker 4: we were community adjacent. I will say, thank god they
6:31
Speaker 4: didn't really fully reject us. We still had family. But
6:35
Speaker 4: as her life got more and more complicated when my
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Speaker 4: father left, when my brother, she was pregnant with my brother,
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Speaker 4: her family kept, instead of saying we'll embrace you again,
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Speaker 4: they kept saying, I told you so, you didn't you
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Speaker 4: leave this path. But then my mother said, you know what,
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Speaker 4: I'm going to restart alone in the Lower East Side
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Speaker 4: in a rent stabilized apartment. We were living in Virginia
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Speaker 4: at the time. She said she threw a baby without
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Speaker 4: a car seat, and the three rolled in the backseat
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Speaker 4: of the car.
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Speaker 1: Drove eight hours. I said, how did Josh not even just.
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Speaker 4: Like roll over into the into like the footholds of
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Speaker 4: the car, Like, what do you mean you didn't have
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Speaker 4: a seat belt.
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Speaker 1: He's like, there's no seat belt.
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Speaker 4: So she just like laid him on a blanket, told
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Speaker 4: me that I would hold him. She still remembers that
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Speaker 4: I was like three. She's like, hold his stomach so
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Speaker 4: he doesn't roll. And she took eight hours. She drove
7:22
Speaker 4: us to Avenue C in fourteenth Street with some suitcases.
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Speaker 4: She unpacked us in a rent stabilized apartment, and she
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Speaker 4: started her life over again. And she she's a social worker,
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Speaker 4: so for her. She always said to us, which made
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Speaker 4: me really angry as a kid, that I'm not going
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Speaker 4: to be putting you to bed most nights because I
7:43
Speaker 4: really care about finishing my PhD and teaching, and so
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Speaker 4: you're going to see a lot less of me than
7:51
Speaker 4: in a traditional career where I could be somewhere nine
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Speaker 4: to five or nine to three. But it's really really important,
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Speaker 4: and my brain and my talents are for the world,
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Speaker 4: not just for you and your brothers. So I really
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Speaker 4: really had a hard time with that Danielle when I
8:07
Speaker 4: was little, but I really resonate now with her boundaries
8:12
Speaker 4: and understanding that being interested in her own life was
8:16
Speaker 4: going to be her way to mental health in all
8:19
Speaker 4: that chaos.
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Speaker 2: So that is part of the ethos of your new book.
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Speaker 2: But if you don't mind, I'd like to talk about
8:26
Speaker 2: fair Play a little bit, because I think we garner
8:29
Speaker 2: so much in transitioning to unicass space. Yes, okay, wonderful.
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Speaker 2: So fair Play changed my life. I am thirty years old.
8:39
Speaker 2: I read it a year ago, and I had always
8:44
Speaker 2: felt a lot of anxiety about partnership and children because
8:50
Speaker 2: I have a strong personal identity and for some reason,
8:53
Speaker 2: the two felt like they couldn't fit together. And your
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Speaker 2: book relieved me of that. And so when I started
9:00
Speaker 2: this podcast, I had a dream list of guests, and
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Speaker 2: you were at the very top of the list because
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Speaker 2: many of our listeners are twenty four to thirty four,
9:10
Speaker 2: and I think before you even find a partner, have
9:14
Speaker 2: children to read. This book is so meaningful. And then
9:19
Speaker 2: I read that part of what you said is you
9:22
Speaker 2: call yourself the ghost of Christmas future, right, And I
9:25
Speaker 2: laughed because I thought, that's so in line with what
9:28
Speaker 2: I was thinking. Thirty percent of couples divorce over domestic
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Speaker 2: issues that you talk about in fair Play. And if
9:35
Speaker 2: you can set systems up for accountability and trust before
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Speaker 2: they break, I think we give ourselves so much of
9:41
Speaker 2: a better shot at this. So the goal today is
9:44
Speaker 2: to learn from the formula that you set up, and
9:49
Speaker 2: you say there's three parts to it.
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Speaker 4: Yes, there's a magic formula, Danielle. And I can't believe
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Speaker 4: that you repeated me back to me so much better
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Speaker 4: than I've said me. So I need to take you
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Speaker 4: on the road with me, I think. But I am
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Speaker 4: speaking to you that is, there is no purpose to
10:08
Speaker 4: me more important in life than speaking to your generation,
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Speaker 4: the women one generation below me, your listeners, because there
10:18
Speaker 4: is absolutely a tension between women maintaining their identity and
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Speaker 4: living in a heterocist gender relationship in America today, and
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Speaker 4: it doesn't have to be that way. And I think
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Speaker 4: that I'll start with, as you said, sort of the
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Speaker 4: understanding the recognition of what you just said about what
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Speaker 4: fair Play taught me, which was there was a time
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Speaker 4: in my life where what I would have said to you, Danielle,
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Speaker 4: if I was your guest and thank you for having me.
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Speaker 1: Was you only have ten years left to live, I
10:55
Speaker 1: would say that. I would have said that to you.
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Speaker 4: You're thirty, I would have said, Okay, well, good luck,
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Speaker 4: you have one more year. Enjoy it, right, because on
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Speaker 4: average in America now it's about thirty one when people
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Speaker 4: when women start to have children. That's an average. Does
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Speaker 4: not mean you have to do that, but it actually
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Speaker 4: did correspond.
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Speaker 1: To my average.
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Speaker 4: I was thirty one when I had Zach and you know,
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Speaker 4: the twenty one year old Eve, the one that we
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Speaker 4: got to talk about, who was the parental child, who
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Speaker 4: helped my mother with her eviction notices, who was hurt
11:26
Speaker 4: saw one woman do it all and said, you know what,
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Speaker 4: I'm going to be president Danielle and I'm going to
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Speaker 4: be Senator at the same time because no one's done it,
11:34
Speaker 4: but why can't I?
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Speaker 1: And I'm not going to.
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Speaker 4: Give up my dreams of being a Nick City dancer
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Speaker 4: because I can fly Air First one into Madison Square
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Speaker 4: Garden on Saturdays and I'll do the twelve thirty show,
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Speaker 4: and I'll fly Air Force one back and issue my
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Speaker 4: executive orders on Sunday and start over again. Right that
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Speaker 4: fire the fire that I hear you speak about when
11:53
Speaker 4: you speak to your guests and listeners. That was dead,
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Speaker 4: It was burned out, it was smoldering embers, and I
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Speaker 4: had to really rebuild.
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Speaker 1: My life from scratch.
12:06
Speaker 4: And fair Play is a book so that nobody has
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Speaker 4: to do that alone again. I wrote it to you,
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Speaker 4: to people behind me, to say that I never want
12:18
Speaker 4: anybody to be surprised by what will happen to you
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Speaker 4: if you just enter a relationship without conversation about what
12:27
Speaker 4: happens to the cultural assumptions to women when they have
12:30
Speaker 4: caregiving responsibilities.
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Speaker 2: Gloria Steinem I've heard her speak a few times live,
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Speaker 2: and each time she brings the point home that because
12:40
Speaker 2: people will ask her about women in business, women in
12:43
Speaker 2: their careers all the time, and she'll sort of deflect
12:47
Speaker 2: and say that women will not be equal until men
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Speaker 2: do an equal amount of work at home. Yours started.
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Speaker 2: Your journey started because you had enough. The funniest part
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Speaker 2: to me is that it started with blueberries. I know
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Speaker 2: that you've told this story a million times, but will
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Speaker 2: you tell it once more for us?
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Speaker 4: Of course, because it was the day that changed my life, right,
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Speaker 4: and who knows that these I don't know if you've
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Speaker 4: ever had one of those days right where it feels
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Speaker 4: so low, or you say to yourself, you know what
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Speaker 4: I'm going to look at this is this It'll be
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Speaker 4: a fun story.
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Speaker 1: You know.
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Speaker 4: In five years my friend and I were walking to
13:23
Speaker 4: our high school reunion and a concrete truck backed up
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Speaker 4: and put concrete all over our feet, and I was like,
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Speaker 4: this sucks, but this will be a funny story. One
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Speaker 4: day for me, this day that my husband Seth sent
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Speaker 4: me a text changed my life. And as you know, Danielle,
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Speaker 4: that text was I'm surprised you didn't get blueberries. But
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Speaker 4: I don't get to unpack often is the burnout and overwhelmed.
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Speaker 4: That was sort of swirling, So I will give the
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Speaker 4: minute unpacking of that day. I'm surprised you didn't get
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Speaker 4: blueberries happened when I was already texting and driving, right,
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Speaker 4: so that was already bad. But I was in the
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Speaker 4: car racing to get my older son, Zach, he was
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Speaker 4: three at the time, from his Chiddler transition program, which
14:07
Speaker 4: we now know America doesn't have childcare spoiler alert, and
14:11
Speaker 4: it costs all of our salaries and it lasts about
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Speaker 4: seven minutes, so I was racing to get him from
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Speaker 4: this program. I had a baby back home with a babysitter.
14:20
Speaker 4: I had a breast pump and a diaper bag on
14:23
Speaker 4: the passenger seat in my car. I had gifts for
14:26
Speaker 4: a newborn baby in the backseat of my car. I
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Speaker 4: had a client contract on my LAP because I had
14:31
Speaker 4: opted out of the traditional workforce at that point and
14:35
Speaker 4: started my own law firm. And I'll just stop right
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Speaker 4: now and say, actually, I don't really stay opted out anymore.
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Speaker 1: I want to say forced out.
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Speaker 4: Because anybody who's left the traditional workforce is not living
14:47
Speaker 4: where the expectation they thought they would is typically because
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Speaker 4: they've been forced out by bias in some way, whether
14:54
Speaker 4: it's small and visible death by a thousand cuts or
14:57
Speaker 4: actual real big bias like not providing lactation space for
15:02
Speaker 4: you when you losing your direct reports when you come back.
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Speaker 4: So there we know that that's proven. Women are extremely
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Speaker 4: discriminated against for their roles as mothers.
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Speaker 1: So that had happened to me.
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Speaker 4: So I had left the workforce or been forced out,
15:19
Speaker 4: so I'd started my own firm. I had a client
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Speaker 4: contract in my LAP, And what I remember distinctly about
15:24
Speaker 4: that day was I write everything analog. Still, I'm really
15:28
Speaker 4: much a visual learner. And so I was marking up
15:31
Speaker 4: this contract for a client in my lap, and I
15:34
Speaker 4: had the pen in between my legs, and when I
15:36
Speaker 4: would stop at the stop sign because I was sort
15:38
Speaker 4: of speeding to get back, the pen would back up
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Speaker 4: and stab.
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Speaker 1: Me in the vagina.
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Speaker 3: Wonderful that was.
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Speaker 4: So that's the metaphor of that day was I was
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Speaker 4: being stabbed in the vagina by a pen. And then
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Speaker 4: Seth has the audacity to say, I'm surprised you didn't
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Speaker 4: get blueberries where I actually pull over. I live in
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Speaker 4: LA now, I don't live in New York still, and
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Speaker 4: we don't take traffic lightly here. Danielle right, So I
16:01
Speaker 4: pull over to be late to pick up Zach meant
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Speaker 4: something was extremely wrong and I just the floodgates open.
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Speaker 4: I was crying on the side of the road, thinking
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Speaker 4: to myself, this is literally nothing like I.
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Speaker 1: Envisioned my life.
16:19
Speaker 4: I do not have any semblance of the career marriage
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Speaker 4: combo I thought I was going to have in my life.
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Speaker 4: And not only that, but I'm being defined as being
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Speaker 4: the fulfiller of my husband's smoothie needs. And on top
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Speaker 4: of that it turns out I was living a statistic
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Speaker 4: that so many women lived that I didn't even know
16:37
Speaker 4: at the time, which is that women shoulder two thirds
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Speaker 4: or more of what it takes to run a home
16:43
Speaker 4: and family. And ultimately, I think what I was really
16:46
Speaker 4: thinking was, this is incredibly cliche, that my marriage is
16:50
Speaker 4: ending over off season blueberries, and that my marriage really
16:54
Speaker 4: should be ending over an affair with an NFL player,
16:57
Speaker 4: Like that's pretty much how I thought my marriage is
17:00
Speaker 4: end was an NFL player affair. So it was really
17:05
Speaker 4: sad that it was coming to an end over a smoothie.
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Speaker 3: But how anti climactic.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, how anti climactic and just sad. But I think
17:14
Speaker 4: that day was the first time in my life where
17:19
Speaker 4: as my mother says, to get to real change, you
17:21
Speaker 4: have to go through the phases of pre consciousness to
17:24
Speaker 4: consciousness and then the fight for solutions. And I think
17:28
Speaker 4: that was the first day of my life where I
17:30
Speaker 4: finally started to wake up to that this.
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Speaker 1: Is not normal.
17:34
Speaker 4: Something is wrong here, and it's bigger than myself. And
17:38
Speaker 4: as you said, there were two privileges for why it
17:42
Speaker 4: shouldn't have happened to me. I am that product of
17:45
Speaker 4: that single mother, since I helped my mother as her
17:47
Speaker 4: parental child with those eviction notices late utility bills, informing
17:53
Speaker 4: her that my brother had special needs and needed more help.
17:57
Speaker 4: I said, Eve, I'm going to have an equal partner
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Speaker 4: in life. I'm not going to do this. I'm not
18:03
Speaker 4: going to have it be so hard for me. And
18:05
Speaker 4: so I was looking for an equal partner.
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Speaker 1: Danielle.
18:07
Speaker 4: I'd set up my equal partnership. We were killing it
18:10
Speaker 4: in equal partnership before kids came around. He would order
18:14
Speaker 4: dinner one night, I would do the laundry, then he
18:15
Speaker 4: would do Steth would do the laundry. It felt so
18:19
Speaker 4: damn fair. And then on top of it, I'm a
18:22
Speaker 4: Harvard train neat, I'm literally trained as a lawyer in
18:26
Speaker 4: difficult conversations, and instead of talking to Seth, I find
18:29
Speaker 4: myself alone, talking to myself, mumbling to myself being stabbed
18:33
Speaker 4: in the vagina by a pen on the side of
18:35
Speaker 4: a road. It just felt completely wrong. And that's the
18:40
Speaker 4: day I decided that in the back of my mind,
18:43
Speaker 4: I knew that this was going to become something that
18:46
Speaker 4: I unpacked and devoted significant time to to understanding why
18:51
Speaker 4: why this was happening to me.
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Speaker 3: You started writing a spreadsheet.
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Speaker 1: Yes. Yes.
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Speaker 2: And there's a term that you talk about in the book,
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Speaker 2: the mental load, or you call it sometimes the second shift.
19:04
Speaker 2: And I hear so many of my friends who are
19:06
Speaker 2: mothers not necessarily use that word, but feel so frustrated
19:11
Speaker 2: by it. Even if men ask how can I help,
19:16
Speaker 2: they feel frustrated that there's still the arbiters of the home.
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Speaker 4: Like I don't want to have to ask you to
19:24
Speaker 4: ask you for help, right, I want you to know
19:27
Speaker 4: what to do. I don't want to have to have
19:30
Speaker 4: you ask me what I should do. Right, I'm not
19:32
Speaker 4: I don't want to parent my partner. Right, I don't
19:35
Speaker 4: want you to ask me anything. That is what you
19:37
Speaker 4: end up becoming, Right, this sort of just really choppy, resentful,
19:43
Speaker 4: angry person that you know.
19:46
Speaker 1: I didn't recognize.
19:47
Speaker 4: I didn't recognize that, But I understand why your friends
19:50
Speaker 4: were feeling that.
19:51
Speaker 2: I was at one of their houses one day and
19:53
Speaker 2: her husband stormed into the living room and he said.
19:58
Speaker 3: Where is the frozen fruit that's and in my mind
20:02
Speaker 3: I was like, I don't want one of those.
20:04
Speaker 2: It's in the freezer, dude, It's for sure in the freezer. Anyways,
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Speaker 2: I think This is where your formula comes into play.
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Speaker 3: It's three parts.
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Speaker 2: There's systems, communication and then toxic time messages. Can we
20:19
Speaker 2: I know it's way better to read the full thing
20:21
Speaker 2: in the book. Can we kind of go through those?
20:24
Speaker 4: Absolutely, Let's unpack this formula. Which is something really beautiful, Danielle,
20:30
Speaker 4: was that I saw. We have a documentary coming out
20:32
Speaker 4: on fair play. We interviewed seventy five couples that were
20:36
Speaker 4: also some of them were beta tests, some of them
20:39
Speaker 4: were new But we don't get to capture all of.
20:41
Speaker 1: The families in the documentary. But what I did.
20:44
Speaker 4: See was a good subset of fair players, people who
20:48
Speaker 4: understood the concepts of this formula, and that when they
20:53
Speaker 4: had the secret formula, they were thriving. They were thriving
20:56
Speaker 4: through through difficult time. It doesn't mean, as the Vivian
21:00
Speaker 4: Green quote right, that life is about waiting for the
21:02
Speaker 4: storm to pass right. It really is about learning to
21:05
Speaker 4: dance in the rain. But I want us all to
21:07
Speaker 4: be dancing and not drowning. And too many people were
21:11
Speaker 4: telling me they were drowning under the weight of unpaid labor, childcare, housework,
21:17
Speaker 4: and trying to maintain some semblance of identity. And career.
21:21
Speaker 4: It just becomes too much. And so what I like
21:25
Speaker 4: to say is that the secret formula is you start
21:28
Speaker 4: with systems. Well, the system is actually the opposite of
21:31
Speaker 4: what we just said, which was that it's not a list.
21:34
Speaker 1: I'll tell you that.
21:35
Speaker 4: And I think women have been making lists for one
21:38
Speaker 4: hundred years, especially in heterosist gender relationships. Even though this
21:42
Speaker 4: is not just related to people who have partners, women
21:46
Speaker 4: of your generation are doing office housework, ordering the boss's
21:51
Speaker 4: birthday cake. Unpaid labor shows up everywhere. It shows up
21:54
Speaker 4: in our salary. We know that, Danielle, if you look
21:57
Speaker 4: like you're going to be a mother, I send Danielle,
22:00
Speaker 4: want to have a partner in kids, all of a sudden,
22:02
Speaker 4: we start paying you less. So this this topic is
22:05
Speaker 4: not just for people who have kids or who are
22:08
Speaker 4: thinking they're married or going to get married. This is
22:10
Speaker 4: really for everybody who cares at all about justice in
22:14
Speaker 4: our society and making things better, because at the end
22:16
Speaker 4: of the day, what a system is.
22:19
Speaker 1: Is the opposite of what I started.
22:20
Speaker 4: So after Seth and I had the Blueberries breakdown, I'll
22:23
Speaker 4: tell you one other quick story that I think is
22:25
Speaker 4: really important for your listeners, which showed me that this
22:28
Speaker 4: wasn't just an eve problem. It was a breast cancer
22:32
Speaker 4: march that I went on. And I write about this
22:34
Speaker 4: in fair Play because it was a friend who had
22:36
Speaker 4: been diagnosed and we were there for support, and we
22:41
Speaker 4: were all in pink, and we were all happy, and
22:44
Speaker 4: we were having a Saturday morning together. We all had
22:48
Speaker 4: young kids at home, but we you know, sort of
22:51
Speaker 4: we're not looking at our phones. We were holding signs.
22:53
Speaker 4: We were chanting not just the women's problem, courage, strength,
22:58
Speaker 4: and power. It felt like this really beautiful, beautiful communal morning.
23:03
Speaker 4: And then almost as as urgently as the community came together,
23:09
Speaker 4: we all started to sort of crack, like like I'd say,
23:12
Speaker 4: like the opposite of Cinderella, Like we turned into pumpkins
23:15
Speaker 4: because our phone started blowing up all at noon and
23:18
Speaker 4: it was just this barrage of One of my favorite
23:23
Speaker 4: was you know, when are you coming home from the parade.
23:26
Speaker 4: That was my friend's partner who had been watching the kids,
23:30
Speaker 4: and you know, it was twelve, so he was, you know,
23:31
Speaker 4: he was done, done babysitting, babysitting his own children.
23:35
Speaker 1: Say that sarcastically, But.
23:37
Speaker 4: Then there are other ones like you know, where'd you
23:39
Speaker 4: put Hudson's soccer bag, what's the address to the birthday party?
23:43
Speaker 1: And did you leave me a gift? You know?
23:45
Speaker 4: My favorite, I think was my friend Kate's husband. His
23:49
Speaker 4: text was do the kids need to eat lunch?
23:53
Speaker 1: Yeah? Thanks Kate's husband.
23:55
Speaker 4: Anyway, so it was I think the hardest part for
23:58
Speaker 4: me though, was and again, why the ghost of Christmas future?
24:01
Speaker 4: I never want this to happen to you when you
24:03
Speaker 4: are on a breast cancer march with your friends. Is
24:06
Speaker 4: that every single powerful woman? And when I tell you
24:09
Speaker 4: these are powerful women, I was with the CEO of
24:12
Speaker 4: an important nonprofit, the head stroke and trauma doctor at
24:17
Speaker 4: Cedar Sinai, our big hospital here, I mean these were
24:20
Speaker 4: an Oscar winning producer, big, big, powerful women, and the
24:24
Speaker 4: every single one of them, all nine of them, said
24:26
Speaker 4: to me, even we can't come with you to lunch
24:29
Speaker 4: because we left our partners with too much to do.
24:33
Speaker 1: Wow.
24:33
Speaker 4: And they left me, Danielle, to go find Hudson's soccer
24:39
Speaker 4: bag and to bring a perfectly rapped gift to a
24:43
Speaker 4: birthday party and to feed their kids lunch apparently. And
24:48
Speaker 4: that was a day that after the blueberries, that I
24:50
Speaker 4: started to start arming myself with some acts of resistance.
24:54
Speaker 4: And what I like to say is that my active
24:56
Speaker 4: resistance that day was I told those women they couldn't
24:59
Speaker 4: leave me and bail on our lunch unless they help
25:02
Speaker 4: me count up how many phone calls and.
25:04
Speaker 1: Texts we had received.
25:06
Speaker 4: And we had thirty phone calls and forty six texts
25:12
Speaker 4: for ten women in thirty minutes.
25:14
Speaker 3: Wow.
25:16
Speaker 1: That's the mental load.
25:19
Speaker 4: That is the second shift, that is invisible work, and
25:23
Speaker 4: that is not so easily solved. And that's why it
25:26
Speaker 4: took me ten years to solve it, or to at
25:29
Speaker 4: least propose a solution for what.
25:31
Speaker 1: Is working in many many homes, and.
25:34
Speaker 4: Why I can safely say to you today, Danielle, that
25:37
Speaker 4: you can integrate your beautiful, amazing personality and your unicorn space,
25:44
Speaker 4: which I will tell you is this podcast is part
25:47
Speaker 4: of it. How you share yourself with the world, and
25:49
Speaker 4: such a research and diligent and important way that can
25:54
Speaker 4: never go. I will not let you have just one
25:57
Speaker 4: more year left to live because who you are today's
26:00
Speaker 4: a very important part of the narrative and storyline of
26:03
Speaker 4: what we need women to be. And we can't have
26:07
Speaker 4: you go feed your kids lunch. Fine, hot Hudsons soccer
26:11
Speaker 4: bag and to perfectly wrap gifts over and over again,
26:14
Speaker 4: because then you have no time for what makes you you.
26:18
Speaker 4: And so that to me was a system. It was
26:21
Speaker 4: getting to the crux of understanding that when after that,
26:25
Speaker 4: I decided to open a spreadsheet that was called the
26:28
Speaker 4: Shit I Do Spreadsheet because I literally thought if I
26:31
Speaker 4: made a list of all the invisible work that I
26:34
Speaker 4: would be able to solve my problem by just making
26:38
Speaker 4: it visible. When I sent it to seth, after nine
26:41
Speaker 4: months of sourcing two thousand items of invisible work and
26:44
Speaker 4: ninety eight tabs in this beautiful spreadsheet, I didn't even
26:49
Speaker 4: get a courtesy of a response, and I didn't even
26:51
Speaker 4: get Wow, this is.
26:53
Speaker 1: A lot of work.
26:54
Speaker 4: I want to help you, or let's figure this out together.
26:56
Speaker 4: I got a monkey emoji, the earliest one where it's
27:00
Speaker 4: like a pixelated version of that monkey that's covering its
27:03
Speaker 4: eyes the see no evil.
27:06
Speaker 1: And that was the day I realized that I had
27:09
Speaker 1: three choices.
27:10
Speaker 4: I could resign myself to continuing to do it all
27:14
Speaker 4: lose myself in the process, which is what was my
27:17
Speaker 4: slippery slope.
27:17
Speaker 1: What was happening to me at the time.
27:20
Speaker 4: I could eat prey love the shit out of my
27:22
Speaker 4: marriage right because one friend said to me, oh, I
27:24
Speaker 4: figured out my division of labor in my home.
27:27
Speaker 1: It's called court ordered custody.
27:30
Speaker 4: Oh wow, that was an option, but you know what
27:32
Speaker 4: that's I like seth still, So I was really not
27:35
Speaker 4: ready to do that, and I had little kids in
27:37
Speaker 4: the home still, So my third option was to ask
27:40
Speaker 4: the most important question I literally ever asked.
27:43
Speaker 1: That is the crux of that formula. It's the crux of.
27:46
Speaker 4: The system, which was what would happen if we'd treated
27:49
Speaker 4: our homes as our most important organizations. As one man
27:54
Speaker 4: said to me, Oh, you mean the opposite of my
27:57
Speaker 4: home where we wait to decide who's taking the dog
27:59
Speaker 4: out when it's about to take a piss on the rug.
28:02
Speaker 4: And I said, exactly opposite of that picture of that,
28:05
Speaker 4: but opposite whatever that is, the opposite is what I want.
28:09
Speaker 4: And so when people tell me that they're dying in
28:12
Speaker 4: decision fatigue and burnout, it's often because we give no
28:16
Speaker 4: thought to our home as our most important organization. We
28:19
Speaker 4: give no respect and rigor to it. And the last
28:21
Speaker 4: thing I'll say about that it is even my aunt
28:23
Speaker 4: Marian's Majen group has more clearly define.
28:26
Speaker 1: Expectations in the home.
28:27
Speaker 4: You don't bring snack twice to that group, you're out
28:31
Speaker 4: a home is all. The opposite of that is complete chaos.
28:36
Speaker 4: It's the opposite of explicitly define expectations. And once you
28:39
Speaker 4: can change and write that wrong, then everything else falls
28:43
Speaker 4: into place.
28:45
Speaker 2: The toxic time messages gutted me because I'm not married
28:52
Speaker 2: and I do these and even with a boyfriend or
28:57
Speaker 2: a relationship, I fel's so embarrassed. There's four right, So
29:02
Speaker 2: time is money. My partner makes more money, so I
29:05
Speaker 2: have to do more in the home. Two's I'm a
29:08
Speaker 2: better multitasker. I'm wired for the care.
29:10
Speaker 3: I'm a mom.
29:12
Speaker 2: Three is in the time it takes them to do
29:15
Speaker 2: what I do. I could just do it myself. And lastly,
29:20
Speaker 2: we're both surgeons. But I can find the time, and
29:22
Speaker 2: my partner's better at focusing on one thing.
29:26
Speaker 3: That's the one that gets me.
29:29
Speaker 2: There's the overarching message is that we constantly devalue women's time,
29:35
Speaker 2: and it extends beyond the home entirely.
29:37
Speaker 3: I see it even in.
29:38
Speaker 2: Interest based things, like we devalue what a lot of
29:42
Speaker 2: women are interested in, even like clothing or anything like that.
29:46
Speaker 2: It feels frivolous if women are interested. You say that
29:51
Speaker 2: the worst purveyors of these toxic messages are women themselves.
29:55
Speaker 2: So what I think it's called ciy oh oh oh oh.
30:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, we say I know all this.
30:03
Speaker 4: You're the best You're the best researcher I've ever I've
30:05
Speaker 4: ever ever interviewer I've ever had.
30:08
Speaker 3: I guess, thank you.
30:11
Speaker 1: Yes.
30:12
Speaker 4: So I think I'm going to tear up because it's
30:15
Speaker 4: hard to explain how triggering this work is. And I
30:20
Speaker 4: think when people think, oh, well, this is somebody who
30:23
Speaker 4: comes on and talk about chores, right, or housework, or
30:27
Speaker 4: who's left a sponge in the sink or who picked
30:29
Speaker 4: up the blueberries, so dangerous, and you know, because it
30:32
Speaker 4: presents so small, But it's really exactly what you said
30:36
Speaker 4: if we understand the system. The system is about understanding
30:41
Speaker 4: our home is our most important organization that we deserve
30:44
Speaker 4: explicitly define expectations and for someone to look at it
30:48
Speaker 4: as a partnership where there's no assumptions to who does what,
30:52
Speaker 4: but that we each own tasks from start to finish,
30:55
Speaker 4: which is really not a rocket science concept. Fair Play
30:59
Speaker 4: is based on principles that have worked in the workplace
31:01
Speaker 4: for fifty years. It's that when you hold a task,
31:04
Speaker 4: you to hold the task from start to finish. You
31:06
Speaker 4: have you're hey, I'm cooking dinner tonight. Well, what do
31:10
Speaker 4: you want me to make?
31:11
Speaker 1: No?
31:11
Speaker 4: Right, it's I got this. I know what the recipe is.
31:14
Speaker 4: I have Well, where's the cilantro for my tacos?
31:16
Speaker 2: No?
31:17
Speaker 4: I know where my grocries are. I know how to
31:19
Speaker 4: cook it. It gets on the table. That is executive function.
31:22
Speaker 4: That's basic adulting.
31:24
Speaker 1: Right.
31:24
Speaker 4: So the premise of fair play was a game, was
31:28
Speaker 4: a metaphor to divide up the should I do? Spreadsheet
31:32
Speaker 4: into cards. It became a gamified game to say, when
31:35
Speaker 4: you hold a card one of the hundred cards, you
31:37
Speaker 4: hold it from start to finish. Now, why is that
31:41
Speaker 4: this easy concept that often works in the workplace?
31:43
Speaker 1: Right?
31:43
Speaker 4: You don't go into your office your boss. You definitely
31:46
Speaker 4: I know you, Danielle, now that I know how amazing
31:49
Speaker 4: rigorous you are in terms of your research. You're not
31:51
Speaker 4: going into your producer and saying, well, hey, should I
31:54
Speaker 4: what should I be talking about today? I'm just going
31:57
Speaker 4: to wait here to tell me what to do. I
31:59
Speaker 4: know that that would not fly for you, right, I
32:03
Speaker 4: know it, But we take on these weird, those types
32:07
Speaker 4: of roles in the home where we're delegating, as we
32:11
Speaker 4: said earlier, what your friends say, right, I don't want
32:13
Speaker 4: to have to tell you what to do to help me.
32:16
Speaker 4: And it all starts with this idea that the systems
32:20
Speaker 4: should be easy, and that was getting me so frustrated.
32:24
Speaker 4: The systems should be easy. But that's why I realized
32:26
Speaker 4: it was a secret formula. It wasn't just systems. It
32:29
Speaker 4: was communication, which we'll talk about last, but this piece
32:33
Speaker 4: of boundaries. So it's systems and then it's boundaries. The
32:37
Speaker 4: boundary is your sandwich around your system. And by boundaries,
32:41
Speaker 4: I mean not taking a walk around the block. I'm
32:45
Speaker 4: not talking about grabbing a drink with a friend, which
32:48
Speaker 4: is what you hear so much these days. By boundaries,
32:50
Speaker 4: a boundary, a true boundary for women, is the opposite
32:54
Speaker 4: of burnout, which is being interested in your own life.
32:59
Speaker 4: Being interested in your own life.
33:00
Speaker 1: And to get.
33:01
Speaker 4: There, as we said earlier, you need the time to
33:04
Speaker 4: do it. And what happens with these toxic time messages,
33:08
Speaker 4: which is why they're so related to boundaries, is that
33:11
Speaker 4: as a society, the core premise of fair play, right,
33:15
Speaker 4: is that we have to have time equality, that all
33:17
Speaker 4: time is created equal because now in society, what happens
33:21
Speaker 4: is that for our entire life, since we are born,
33:25
Speaker 4: women are taught that men's time is to be guarded
33:29
Speaker 4: like diamonds, that it's finite, but that our time is
33:34
Speaker 4: infinite like sand. And we see it everywhere. As you said,
33:38
Speaker 4: it's not just in the home. We see if women
33:41
Speaker 4: enter a male profession, salaries automatically go down. As you said, Danielle,
33:45
Speaker 4: if a woman is interested in something, it's considered frivolous
33:48
Speaker 4: or a passion project or a hobby or you know,
33:52
Speaker 4: the vanity project or names that are dismissed by society.
33:57
Speaker 4: We say things to women like breastfeeding is free when
34:00
Speaker 4: it's eighteen hundred hours a year, it's a full time job.
34:03
Speaker 4: And so when I start to hear women say things
34:06
Speaker 4: to me that, like you said, our ciyo oh, complicit
34:10
Speaker 4: in your own oppression. This is our one oh one. Right,
34:13
Speaker 4: we can't unpack all of this today and the podcast,
34:15
Speaker 4: but no, no, this is your one oh one. And
34:18
Speaker 4: when you come back to these messages to your own power,
34:21
Speaker 4: that you deserve permission to be unavailable from your roles, parent, partner, professional,
34:27
Speaker 4: whatever it is. You deserve that permission to be unavailable,
34:30
Speaker 4: and you deserve equal time choice over how you use
34:33
Speaker 4: your day as your male counterparts. That's when things change.
34:37
Speaker 4: So for me, it wasn't saying to Seth, make your
34:40
Speaker 4: own fucking smoothies, even though that's what I did say
34:42
Speaker 4: to him at one point. The change in our marriage
34:45
Speaker 4: Danielle started with saying to Seth, you know what, I
34:50
Speaker 4: notice something. I've been noticing that for years now you
34:55
Speaker 4: have four hours after our kids go to bed to
34:59
Speaker 4: watch Sports Center, to put your your legs up to
35:04
Speaker 4: you relax from your hard day, to unwind to work out.
35:09
Speaker 4: Whereas set I've noticed that I'm doing things in service
35:11
Speaker 4: of our home until my head hits the pillow, which
35:15
Speaker 4: is already three hours later than your head hits the pillow.
35:18
Speaker 4: So it's affecting my sleep as well as the fact
35:20
Speaker 4: that I have no leisure time. And we know now
35:23
Speaker 4: in science that men have more leisure time than women.
35:26
Speaker 4: It's a proven fact, and we know actually that when
35:29
Speaker 4: women have children, men do five to fifteen hours a
35:32
Speaker 4: week less less than they did before. And so it
35:37
Speaker 4: just gets worse. Actually it compounds. And then what happens
35:41
Speaker 4: is because we have less time, we get penalized for
35:43
Speaker 4: it at work because then, oh, oh my god, Danielle
35:45
Speaker 4: can't take on two podcasts. Let's give her one and
35:48
Speaker 4: we'll give it to someone else. She can't be a
35:50
Speaker 4: full media property because she won't have the time because
35:52
Speaker 4: she's gonna have kids. And then all of a sudden,
35:53
Speaker 4: you're freelancing now and you're getting paid less and you're
35:57
Speaker 4: getting less opportunities, and then all of a sudden and
36:00
Speaker 4: you make less, and then your partner makes more, and
36:02
Speaker 4: then you do less, and it's a vicious cycle. We
36:05
Speaker 4: repeat same shit, different decade. And so what I said
36:08
Speaker 4: to myself was, I'm going to stop the cycle. I
36:11
Speaker 4: can't do it alone. I need cultural warriors like you.
36:14
Speaker 4: But at least I can devote the rest of my
36:16
Speaker 4: life to what we started with. The first sentence we
36:19
Speaker 4: started with, which is that ghost of Christmas future, that
36:22
Speaker 4: I will never allow this to happen to you. Be
36:26
Speaker 4: having you in your full power is what my unicorn
36:29
Speaker 4: space is. It's what I do now with my leisure time. It's,
36:32
Speaker 4: as Reneezlwoger says, it's what completes me because it is
36:36
Speaker 4: so powerful, so powerful that we don't fall victim to
36:41
Speaker 4: losing our boundaries.
36:43
Speaker 2: I think so many men would think of fair play
36:47
Speaker 2: and think what's in this for me?
36:49
Speaker 3: I don't want to pick up all these chores.
36:51
Speaker 2: But I've heard you call the book a love letter
36:53
Speaker 2: to men, so this really did enhance their life.
36:57
Speaker 3: Can you talk about how well.
36:59
Speaker 1: A beautiful segue?
37:00
Speaker 4: Because I feel like you set me up for our
37:02
Speaker 4: last sea or the last piece of the formula, which
37:05
Speaker 4: is communication. So what we find Professor Daniel Carson just
37:09
Speaker 4: had a new study at the University of Utah which
37:12
Speaker 4: I was laughing because he presented to me and he's like,
37:15
Speaker 4: look what I found, Eve that when women they initiate
37:19
Speaker 4: home conversations and they initiate it in toxic ways, and
37:23
Speaker 4: then men do more in the home, but just short term,
37:26
Speaker 4: and then it turns out that their life in marital
37:29
Speaker 4: satisfaction goes down.
37:31
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, wow, I'm glad you need to
37:32
Speaker 1: study to find that out. But I'm glad it's peer.
37:34
Speaker 4: Reviewed in the study now because of course the communication
37:38
Speaker 4: that's happening in our lives, especially because women have been
37:42
Speaker 4: taught to be seen not heard since birth. Even if
37:45
Speaker 4: we've been sold a lie that we can do and
37:46
Speaker 4: be anything, we get very very fundamentally mixed messages. Is
37:50
Speaker 4: that we are not taught a communication practice. We are
37:54
Speaker 4: taught in exercise practice because that's understandable because our body
37:58
Speaker 4: has to look a certain way. We're taught a self
38:00
Speaker 4: care practice, which is often commodified wellness to dye our
38:04
Speaker 4: hair or to get botox, But a communication practice. What
38:08
Speaker 4: I'm here to say to your listeners is going to
38:10
Speaker 4: be the most important practice of your life. It is
38:14
Speaker 4: the most important practice of my life. It's been the
38:17
Speaker 4: thing that's changed everything, and it's wide. It's part of
38:20
Speaker 4: that formula sandwich. A system of ownership and guarding our
38:24
Speaker 4: own time can only happen if we ask for what
38:27
Speaker 4: we need, and we state it, and we state it
38:30
Speaker 4: to ourselves in self talk communication, and then we practice
38:33
Speaker 4: it actually saying it out loud to others and so
38:37
Speaker 4: to me. What has been so helpful and why Fair
38:40
Speaker 4: plays a love letter to men is because if you
38:43
Speaker 4: look at the home as the most important organization, the
38:46
Speaker 4: things that women told me that they hated about home
38:48
Speaker 4: life in the heterosys Gender seventeen country of interviews was
38:54
Speaker 4: that they couldn't shut their mind off a lot of
38:56
Speaker 4: what your friends were saying earlier, the overwhelm, the having
38:59
Speaker 4: to parent your partner, the always being in charge. It
39:03
Speaker 4: is overwhelming. But what men said to me was almost
39:07
Speaker 4: even more dangerous for them, which is, I don't do more,
39:11
Speaker 4: not because I don't want to be an involved father
39:13
Speaker 4: or partner, but because I can't do anything right. I
39:17
Speaker 4: didn't hear from men, I don't want to do more,
39:19
Speaker 4: I don't want to be involved. It was that, well,
39:21
Speaker 4: if I try this, it's just going to be what
39:24
Speaker 4: it's been before, which is that I try to take
39:26
Speaker 4: something over and then I get verbal assassin to death,
39:29
Speaker 4: I get yelled at, I get the cold shoulder, I
39:33
Speaker 4: get eye rolls because I didn't do it right.
39:36
Speaker 1: And that is almost a worse place to be.
39:39
Speaker 4: It's a part of an organization where it's called the
39:42
Speaker 4: lack of psychological safety, where you have someone who's in
39:45
Speaker 4: a position of all control and no context, and that's
39:49
Speaker 4: almost worse than being overwhelmed. The idea that you walk
39:52
Speaker 4: into a scenario and you don't know what's happening, and
39:55
Speaker 4: someone's telling you to do something that's what we often
39:57
Speaker 4: call nagging, but really what it is is men say
40:00
Speaker 4: I don't want to be in that situation where I
40:02
Speaker 4: have no control over my surroundings and more importantly, I
40:06
Speaker 4: have no room to carry through my mistakes. And that's
40:11
Speaker 4: been the beauty for me. It's the small changes. It's
40:14
Speaker 4: not these big, sweeping changes. It's the small. While life
40:19
Speaker 4: is a death by a thousand cuts, as people used
40:21
Speaker 4: to say to me, fair play is the repair of that.
40:24
Speaker 4: It's these small changes where for me, it started with
40:27
Speaker 4: extracurricular sports, where Seth would show up with the Little
40:29
Speaker 4: League field and say I did it, and I'd say,
40:32
Speaker 4: oh my god, well, here's the eighty five person text
40:34
Speaker 4: chain that I'm on behind the scenes. And I ordered
40:37
Speaker 4: these cleats from Amazon, and I had to return these
40:39
Speaker 4: cleats from Amazon, and I borrowed this jersey, and I
40:42
Speaker 4: surveyed my kids' friends to see what sports they wanted
40:44
Speaker 4: to play, and I arranged them to get to carpool
40:47
Speaker 4: and I got them there with their water bottle and
40:49
Speaker 4: their sunscreen, all those behind the scene tasks that just
40:52
Speaker 4: got my kids to the Little League field. When Seth
40:56
Speaker 4: just started with that one card, that one metaphorical card
40:59
Speaker 4: of one hundred and said, I see you and your
41:02
Speaker 4: invisible work, and I will take it on from start
41:04
Speaker 4: to finish. And I have to be able to carry
41:06
Speaker 4: through my mistakes. If our kids show up without a uniform,
41:09
Speaker 4: then I.
41:10
Speaker 1: Will carry it through. I will do this.
41:12
Speaker 4: With a minimum standard of care that we both can
41:14
Speaker 4: live with. That respect, that accountability and trust is, that's
41:19
Speaker 4: the forefront of a good organization. It's what I speak
41:22
Speaker 4: about for ten years. Organizational failure comes with accountability and
41:27
Speaker 4: trust loss. And so when I could bring that back
41:30
Speaker 4: through these small changes, I realize, oh my god, if
41:32
Speaker 4: accountability and trust can be in every single one of
41:34
Speaker 4: our relationships, then.
41:36
Speaker 1: Danielle, you get that. You get the price which I
41:39
Speaker 1: didn't have.
41:40
Speaker 4: You get a relationship with accountability and trust so you
41:43
Speaker 4: can be who you get to. You can stay who
41:46
Speaker 4: you want to be and grow into who you want
41:49
Speaker 4: to become. And that's the most powerful type of relationship.
41:52
Speaker 4: And that's what men report to me when they are
41:55
Speaker 4: in relationships where they see who they air partner wants
41:58
Speaker 4: to become and they can support them in that growth.
42:01
Speaker 4: That type of self worth and pride combination is the
42:04
Speaker 4: healthiest relationships I see.
42:24
Speaker 2: All right, Today is a good day to have a
42:26
Speaker 2: good day.
42:27
Speaker 3: I'll see an exce