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A Front Row Seat to Trump's Trial · Pod Save America

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Smart journalism. Fascinating topics. Words that describe CNN's podcast, The
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Assignment with Audie Cornish. Last year, the Army missed its
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: recruitment goal. It had 65,000 spots to fill and came
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: up 10,000 short.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Of that target.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Why is it so hard to recruit?
• 0:17
  Speaker 3: How's the Pentagon responding?
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: And how are the voices of service members on social
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: media shifting the balance? Listen to The Assignment with Audie
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Cornish wherever you get your podcasts.
• 0:35
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:54
  Speaker 5: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: Legal scholar and former White House ethics lawyer Norm Eisen,
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: our old friend, stops by to talk about his front
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  Speaker 2: row seat to Donald Trump's Manhattan trial and all the
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: rest of the week's legal news. But first, Donald Trump
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  Speaker 2: used his one day off from sleeping at his criminal
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  Speaker 2: trial to hold two campaign rallies in Wisconsin and Michigan.
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  Speaker 2: Just one day after Judge Mershon held him in contempt
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  Speaker 2: of court for violating his gag order and threatened him
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  Speaker 2: with jail time. Trump responded by calling the judge crooked
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  Speaker 2: and corrupt. He also said the trial is bullshit. He
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  Speaker 2: did avoid attacking the actual witnesses, though, but he had
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: plenty of other targets. He called Chris Christie a fat pig,
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  Speaker 2: said he might not accept the results of the 2024 election,
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  Speaker 2: accused pro-Palestinian protesters of being, quote, paid actors, and characterized
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  Speaker 2: all of this as, quote, having a little fun on
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  Speaker 2: the campaign trail. Here's what Trump's idea of fun sounds like.
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  Speaker 6: To every college president, I say remove the encampments immediately,
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  Speaker 6: vanquish the radicals, and take back our campuses for all
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  Speaker 6: of the normal students who want a safe place from
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  Speaker 6: which to learn.
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  Speaker 5: And, you know, you saw it last night. That's one
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  Speaker 5: good thing that really happened.
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  Speaker 6: You saw it last night because New York was under
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  Speaker 6: siege last night. It was a beautiful thing to watch.
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  Speaker 6: New York's finest. Crooked Joe is now reportedly planning— this
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  Speaker 6: is wonderful news for you people in Wisconsin— to bring
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  Speaker 6: massive numbers of Gazans from the Middle East all live
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  Speaker 6: to your American towns, your towns and villages. Your towns
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  Speaker 6: and villages will now be accepting people from Gaza and
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  Speaker 6: various other places, Yemen, lots of other places. Joe Biden
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  Speaker 6: seems to determine to, he's just determined to create the
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  Speaker 6: conditions for an October 7th-style attack right here in America.
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  Speaker 5: It's going to happen.
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  Speaker 6: Under no circumstances shall we bring thousands of refugees from
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  Speaker 6: Hamas-controlled terrorist epicenters like Gaza to America. We just can't
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  Speaker 6: do it.
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  Speaker 2: All right. So the next day, in what seemed like
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  Speaker 2: another universe, President Biden had this to say about the
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  Speaker 2: campus protests.
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  Speaker 7: We are not an authoritarian nation where we silence people
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  Speaker 7: or squash dissent. The American people are heard. In fact,
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  Speaker 7: peaceful protest is in the best tradition of how. Americans
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  Speaker 7: respond to consequential issues, but neither are we a lawless country.
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  Speaker 7: We are a civil society. An order must prevail. There's
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  Speaker 7: the right to protest, but not the right to cause chaos.
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  Speaker 7: People have the right to get an education, the right
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  Speaker 7: to get a degree, the right to walk across the
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  Speaker 7: campus safely without fear of being attacked. Let's be clear
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  Speaker 7: about this as well. There should be no place on
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  Speaker 7: any campus No place in America for anti-Semitism or threats
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  Speaker 7: of violence against Jewish students. There is no place for
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  Speaker 7: hate speech or violence of any kind, whether it's anti-Semitism, Islamophobia,
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  Speaker 7: or discrimination against Arab Americans or Palestinian Americans. It's simply wrong.
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  Speaker 7: There's no place for racism in America.
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  Speaker 2: So, slightly different takes from those two. So, Trump hasn't
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  Speaker 2: really talked much about the war in Gaza beyond... answering
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: reporters' questions. And his basic take has been Israel should
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  Speaker 2: be able to do whatever they want, but just they
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  Speaker 2: should do a better job hiding all the death and
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  Speaker 2: destruction from the rest of the world. He thinks it's
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  Speaker 2: a PR problem. He also has a personal beef with
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  Speaker 2: Bibi because Bibi Netanyahu recognized that Joe Biden won the election.
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  Speaker 2: So that's his thoughts on Israel when he's asked. Now, though,
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  Speaker 2: in both Michigan and Wisconsin at these rallies, he is
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  Speaker 2: making attacks on the and Palestinians a more central part
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  Speaker 2: of his message and sort of refugees and immigrants writ large.
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  Speaker 2: What do you think he's up to there?
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  Speaker 5: It's not particularly subtle, I'll tell you that.
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  Speaker 3: No.
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  Speaker 5: For all of like the dumb shit Trump says, all
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  Speaker 5: the rabbit holes he goes down, the petty fights he
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  Speaker 5: picks with people, he has been remarkably disciplined in a
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  Speaker 5: larger meta-narrative about his candidacy going all the way back
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  Speaker 5: to 2016, right? Back to the very first speech he
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  Speaker 5: gave when he came down that escalator. which is that
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  Speaker 5: the world is a scary, chaotic place. Danger is coming
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  Speaker 5: to America, to your home. And even though you may
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  Speaker 5: not agree with everything I say or everything I do,
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  Speaker 5: you may find me uncomfortable in some ways, but I
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  Speaker 5: am the one person who is strong enough to protect you.
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  Speaker 5: And so the more he can bring this image of
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  Speaker 5: chaos to America, to this campaign, to put that in
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  Speaker 5: people's minds, he believes that will benefit him in this election.
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  Speaker 5: It's not subtle. It's incredibly racist. It's incredibly dangerous to
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  Speaker 5: say that this is bringing an October 7th style attack
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  Speaker 5: to America, to demagogue refugees and try to make them
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  Speaker 5: seem like scary terrorists as he has done with immigrants,
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  Speaker 5: as he does on some other issues. But that's what
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  Speaker 5: it is. And the protests dominating the conversation here have,
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  Speaker 5: I think, allowed him to fuse sort of his world
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  Speaker 5: that's dangerous and America's coming apart at the seams into
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  Speaker 5: one message is why I think he's now taken the
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  Speaker 5: step to actually talk about it more. Because he has
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  Speaker 5: been worried about trying to navigate the two challenging parts
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  Speaker 5: of the Republican base, which is one, the very pro-Israel
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  Speaker 5: right wing, and then the isolationism part. And the protests
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  Speaker 5: sort of allow him to ally that conversation and just
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  Speaker 5: sort of weaponize it to his benefit.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And also, by the way, he's dealing with border crossings
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  Speaker 2: have been down. And so he's not as able to
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  Speaker 2: take advantage of that issue and chaos at the border
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  Speaker 2: and so now he's got the protests and also that's
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  Speaker 2: why he's connecting the in the weirdest way possible the
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  Speaker 2: the border with the protests uh he was saying that
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  Speaker 2: um the protesters are paid actors trying to distract us
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  Speaker 2: from the southern invasion of you know immigrants from uh
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  Speaker 2: the middle east and and china and and africa and
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  Speaker 2: look it is a It's absolutely a political campaign move.
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  Speaker 2: He doesn't really care about Gaza or Israel that much.
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  Speaker 2: He does care about people who are angry or afraid
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  Speaker 2: or even just unsettled by all the protests. And he
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  Speaker 2: wants to tell them he's with them. He'll stop them
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  Speaker 2: by any means necessary. He thrives on creating an us
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  Speaker 2: versus them narrative. And them is always foreign invaders or
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  Speaker 2: treasonous radicals or liberals.
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  Speaker 5: Right.
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  Speaker 2: And so he's got to otherize people, which is what
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  Speaker 2: he's been doing with these protests, too. I mean, this
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  Speaker 2: is it's his favorite thing.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Like this is his absolute wheelhouse. But I don't think
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  Speaker 2: it's just a campaign. It's not just a campaign move either.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, he has if you know, if you've seen
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  Speaker 2: footage of police arresting protesters, you know that some of
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  Speaker 2: these officers like don't really need encouragement from the president
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  Speaker 2: to get tougher, but they're going to get a lot
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  Speaker 2: more than encouragement from Trump if he wins. He has
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  Speaker 2: talked about ordering police and military to shoot protesters, to
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  Speaker 2: shoot suspected shoplifters, not with rubber bullets, with real bullets.
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  Speaker 2: He wants mandatory stop and frisk in every city. He
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  Speaker 2: wants to withhold federal funding from police officers who refuse.
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  Speaker 2: He wants to send in the National Guard and the
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  Speaker 2: military to use against protesters and to hunt down immigrants.
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  Speaker 2: And we didn't play it, but when Biden walked away, someone,
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  Speaker 2: you know, Mike Johnson has been saying, President Biden's got
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  Speaker 2: to send in the National Guard. The Congress has been,
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  Speaker 2: you know, other Republicans in Congress have been saying that
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  Speaker 2: clearly Trump wants to do that. Trump's planning to do
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  Speaker 2: that if he wins again. So that's on the agenda. And,
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  Speaker 2: you know, if you're upset with what's happening to the
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  Speaker 2: protesters right now, and some of the scenes are extremely upsetting,
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  Speaker 2: it can and will get much, much worse under Donald Trump.
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  Speaker 2: And he's telling us that.
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  Speaker 5: And you can apply that to every single issue.
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  Speaker 3: Right. Right.
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  Speaker 2: And it's not to say that it's great now, but
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  Speaker 2: it is it can get worse. It can get worse.
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  Speaker 2: He's talked about the Insurrection Act, upset that the military didn't,
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  Speaker 2: you know, shoot the protesters in front of the White
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  Speaker 2: House back after the George Floyd protests. So, like I said,
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  Speaker 2: these these guys don't need more encouragement from someone telling
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  Speaker 2: them to to to knock some heads, you know. So
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  Speaker 2: what did you think about Biden's decision to give remarks
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  Speaker 2: on the protests? And like, how did you feel about
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  Speaker 2: the message?
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  Speaker 5: I listened, I did this thing where I just watched
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  Speaker 5: them in real time without looking at my phone. And
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  Speaker 5: my take was.
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  Speaker 6: What?
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  Speaker 5: I know, I know, I know. It just happened to
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  Speaker 5: be that that's how I did it.
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  Speaker 2: You gotta start with the tweets and then work your
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  Speaker 2: way back. Come on.
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  Speaker 5: Well, maybe I should have And my take was this
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  Speaker 5: was a well-delivered, well-reasoned response to a very complicated situation
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  Speaker 5: where there are incredibly strong feelings on both sides for
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  Speaker 5: legitimate reasons, for legitimate passions about a very serious issue,
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  Speaker 5: both what is happening in Gaza, obviously, then the response
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  Speaker 5: from the police, disproportionate in many, many cases, and then
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  Speaker 5: also to people reacting to examples and rhetoric and anti-Semitic
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  Speaker 5: signs and violence that has been part, even if it's
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  Speaker 5: isolated incidents, but are happening in and around some of
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  Speaker 5: these protests. And so very complicated thing. I thought the
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  Speaker 5: president delivered incredibly well. Then I did the thing I
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  Speaker 5: often do, which is I opened up Twitter and I
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  Speaker 5: saw that no one liked it. Everyone was mad about it.
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  Speaker 5: People were mad on both sides. And maybe there is
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  Speaker 5: no message that could navigate all of that and keep
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  Speaker 5: everyone happy, right? Because there are elements of it. He
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  Speaker 5: used the word disorder, which many people disagreed with. And
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  Speaker 5: I understand why people have that disagreement, because civil disobedience
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  Speaker 5: can be disorderly, and that it's different than violence and lawbreaking.
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  Speaker 5: But on its whole, I thought it was the right message. Now,
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  Speaker 5: the decision to do it I think the president was
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  Speaker 5: right to go out and talk. This is one of those,
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  Speaker 5: you know, so little breaks through to the public these days.
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  Speaker 5: We talk about this all the time. It's just there's
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  Speaker 5: political junkies like us live in one world and the
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  Speaker 5: rest of the country lives in a completely different one.
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  Speaker 5: This one is breaking through because it's happening on college campuses,
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  Speaker 5: because the elite media loves nothing more than to cover
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  Speaker 5: what happens on college campuses, and particularly if it's an
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  Speaker 5: Ivy League school, then they are deeply in on it.
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  Speaker 5: There's a lot of local press around this because it
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  Speaker 5: even if the situations are not as well known or
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  Speaker 5: even as large as they are maybe at UCLA or
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  Speaker 5: Columbia or elsewhere, there are protests on lots of colleges around.
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  Speaker 5: And then on social media, these videos are everywhere, right?
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  Speaker 5: They're being pushed by both sides. They're being pushed to
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  Speaker 5: show the level of dissent that is happening. There's being
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  Speaker 5: the responses, the police response went viral. And so everyone's
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  Speaker 5: talking about it. So it's right for the president to
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  Speaker 5: do it. But ultimately, as you sit there from the
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  Speaker 5: political strategist point of view, you're like, if we are
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  Speaker 5: talking about this, Like sometimes you have to talk about
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  Speaker 5: things that aren't in your chosen issue set, and this
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  Speaker 5: is one of those moments. But another day of news
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  Speaker 5: about this is something that probably made the Trump campaign very,
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  Speaker 5: very happy.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, look, I think the most effective thing Biden
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  Speaker 2: could have said to make the protests go away was that,
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  Speaker 2: you know, he brokered a permanent ceasefire in Gaza or
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  Speaker 2: that he, you know, told Bibi Netanyahu that he refuses
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  Speaker 2: to support Israel anymore if they decide to go invade Rafah,
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  Speaker 2: which Netanyahu said he wants to do whether there's a
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  Speaker 2: deal or not. And I think until either of those
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  Speaker 2: things happen, I don't see the protests going away. So that's,
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  Speaker 2: you know, I have a big disagreement with him there.
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  Speaker 2: But I do think as you're sort of parsing the speech,
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  Speaker 2: it is a really tough line to walk because I
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  Speaker 2: think the line between what counts as peaceful protest and
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  Speaker 2: what doesn't is a hard one to draw. Like violence
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  Speaker 2: obviously isn't peaceful protest. Threatening violence obviously isn't peaceful protest.
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  Speaker 2: Destruction of property is obviously against the law. Occupying buildings, encampments,
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: like I think those are legitimate forms of protest and
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  Speaker 2: civil disobedience. But if there are rules and laws against
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  Speaker 2: that kind of protest, and if you've been warned about
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  Speaker 2: breaking those laws, then part of civil disobedience is accepting
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  Speaker 2: the penalty for that. I mean, that's what Dr. King said, right?
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  Speaker 2: He said that you should accept the penalty and you
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  Speaker 2: should do so civilly, not uncivilly, right? That was sort
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  Speaker 2: of the foundation of his belief in the civil rights movement.
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  Speaker 2: And of course, the civil rights activists were not treated civilly,
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  Speaker 2: but certainly they acted civilly. Look, I don't think that
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  Speaker 2: means that cops should fucking fire rubber bullets at you
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  Speaker 2: or tase you or beat the shit out of you.
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  Speaker 2: But that's a whole separate problem. And so, look, I
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  Speaker 2: think that Biden needed to communicate to people that we
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: need to have like the right of peaceful protest in
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: this country is sacrosanct. And like that, that's just very important.
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  Speaker 2: And people have like strong feelings about this war. And
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  Speaker 2: if they want to go put themselves on the line
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  Speaker 2: for those beliefs, then they absolutely should. And they should
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  Speaker 2: have the right to do that. And the fact that
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  Speaker 2: we have this like militarized response isn't fucking great. But
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  Speaker 2: also like you can't look at some of the scenes
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  Speaker 2: of not just the scenes of vandalism because vandalism is vandalism.
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  Speaker 6: Right.
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  Speaker 2: But like this is this is unique. This is unlike,
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  Speaker 2: I think, in Vietnam, the Vietnam protests, unlike the civil
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: rights protests where you have you basically have a marginalized
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: group or people protesting on behalf of a marginalized group.
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  Speaker 2: That also, and we talked about this before, there's like,
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: you know, moments of anti-Semitism here, which is there's another
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: marginalized group is feeling threatened, right? And I don't think
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  Speaker 2: we've seen that here for a while based on the protests.
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  Speaker 2: And so that's why you see these like protesters and
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: counter protesters. And I do think that's why it feels
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: so raw and why it feels so tough and probably
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  Speaker 2: why Biden stepped in to speak today. And also- You know,
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: he's going, he's speaking at the Holocaust Memorial next Tuesday,
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: I believe. And he'll be talking more about anti-Semitism there.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: And I'm sure he'll probably have more to say about
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: Gaza as well.
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  Speaker 5: Like, this is very challenging. The president is being cross-pressured
• 15:14
  Speaker 5: in several ways. He's being pressured to speak out about
• 15:17
  Speaker 5: the very visible uptick in anti-Semitism, not just at these protests,
• 15:21
  Speaker 5: the uptick in Islamophobia that we are seeing. He's being
• 15:25
  Speaker 5: pressured to talk about the disproportionate police response. He's being
• 15:30
  Speaker 5: pressured to talk about the isolated incidents of vandalism and
• 15:34
  Speaker 5: violence that are happening on American campuses that are canceling
• 15:36
  Speaker 5: classes and canceling graduations. And so he's trying to take
• 15:39
  Speaker 5: all of that and put it into one set of remarks.
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  Speaker 5: And as you pointed out, the fundamental issue here is
• 15:46
  Speaker 5: a policy one, right? And until you address that, none
• 15:49
  Speaker 5: of the words are going to address it. I think so.
• 15:51
  Speaker 5: This was a tough call. It was not an easy task,
• 15:54
  Speaker 5: but I think the president was right to speak about it.
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  Speaker 6: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And look, and we can talk about we can debate protests.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: We can debate all this stuff. But like the the
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: core issue, the reason there are protests in the first place,
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: the reason there are crackdowns on the protests, the reason
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: Trump's out there doing what he's doing at those rallies,
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: the reason Biden had to speak today is because the
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: war continues and no one has been able to end it.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: No one has been able to force Bibi Netanyahu to
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: end it. And I don't think Joe Biden has used
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: some of his leverage to get more aid in. And
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: I know they're trying to work on a deal right now.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: But he has not used all the leverage that he
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: has to try to end this war. So I think
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  Speaker 2: when that happens, and hopefully it does happen soon, that's
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: when we'll start to see the protests actually go away.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: At the Michigan rally, Trump also thanked the conservative Supreme
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: Court justices for overturning Roe v.
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: Wade.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: And in Wisconsin, he offered up an early take on
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: how all these abortion bans are playing with people.
• 16:59
  Speaker 5: Let's listen.
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  Speaker 6: A couple of states I won't mention, but a couple
• 17:01
  Speaker 6: of states really surprised people. But basically, the states decide
• 17:05
  Speaker 6: on abortion. And people are absolutely thrilled with the way
• 17:12
  Speaker 6: that's going on.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: Absolutely thrilled. That's just rave reviews for Dobbs.
• 17:17
  Speaker 5: That's what I keep hearing from all the polls say.
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah. From from the six justices on the Supreme Court. Yeah.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: It's thrilled like they are in Arizona, where Republicans have
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: been running terrified from the 1864 ban that a court
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: let go into effect. So much so that a few
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: of them, a few of the Republicans in the Arizona
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: legislature just joined with Democrats in voting to get it
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: off the books. Governor Democratic Governor Katie Hobbs is signing
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: that law today. That sound you hear is a relieved
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: Carrie Lake holstering her Glock. But on the same day,
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: Florida's six-week ban went into effect, which was why Kamala
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: Harris was there this week giving a speech where she
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: mentioned Trump 21 times. And the Biden campaign also released
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: a new ad called Prosecute. It's a seven-figure ad buy
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: that's running in all the swing states. And I guess
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: this weekend during the Kentucky Derby, here it is.
• 18:13
  Speaker 8: Tonight, Donald Trump's new comments on abortion, saying that some
• 18:17
  Speaker 8: states might choose to monitor women's pregnancies to possibly prosecute
• 18:22
  Speaker 8: women who violate abortion bans.
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: Two years ago, I became pregnant with a baby I
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: desperately wanted. And I learned that the fetus would have
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: a fatal condition and never survive. Because of the new
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: laws in Texas, I had to flee my own state
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: to receive treatment.
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump took away our freedom.
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: We need leaders that will protect our rights and not
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: take them away. And that's Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: So let's start with Arizona. Good that they repealed the
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: extreme 1864 ban, but they still have a 15-week ban
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: on the books. How do you think this changes the
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: politics around abortion in Arizona and for Trump, or does it?
• 19:03
  Speaker 5: I don't think it changes the politics for Trump at all, right?
• 19:06
  Speaker 5: He is now where he was before, which is, He
• 19:10
  Speaker 5: is the person walking this planet singularly most responsible for
• 19:13
  Speaker 5: overturning Roe v.
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: Wade.
• 19:15
  Speaker 5: He has made a host of comments, some of the
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: ones you just referenced, which suggest just how extreme he
• 19:20
  Speaker 5: would be on abortion. He has said through his leave
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: it to the states policy that he is a de
• 19:27
  Speaker 5: facto supporter of even the most extreme bans like the
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: one in Florida, and that if he were to be elected,
• 19:33
  Speaker 5: he would be a supporter of Arizona passing a similar
• 19:35
  Speaker 5: law again. We also know that Democrats have a little
• 19:39
  Speaker 5: bit of an uphill battle to try to make voters
• 19:42
  Speaker 5: understand just how extreme he is on abortion. That was
• 19:44
  Speaker 5: true in the Arizona– before the Arizona Supreme Court decision.
• 19:46
  Speaker 5: That was true after it. And it's true after the
• 19:49
  Speaker 5: law was repealed. In the state of Arizona, I think
• 19:51
  Speaker 5: there is some sense that that law really focused people's
• 19:54
  Speaker 5: minds on the issue of abortion, that it was going
• 19:56
  Speaker 5: to put that top of mind for lots of voters,
• 19:58
  Speaker 5: that we believe that to be better for Democrats. I
• 20:00
  Speaker 5: don't think this changes it that much because there is
• 20:04
  Speaker 5: very likely to be an abortion referendum on the ballot
• 20:07
  Speaker 5: in Arizona. under all scenarios. And so as long as
• 20:10
  Speaker 5: that is the case, I think abortion will be an
• 20:13
  Speaker 5: incredibly important part of the political conversation and that Donald
• 20:15
  Speaker 5: Trump and Kerry Lake will have to answer for that
• 20:17
  Speaker 5: on a near daily basis.
• 20:19
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: And also, you know, it was a few Republicans that
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: joined with Democrats to get rid of the ban. We
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: have an election coming up and, you know, Arizona Republicans
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: are just a few votes away from reinstating the 1864 ban, right?
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: And so this election matters a lot. And like you said,
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: the referendum is also going to keep it top of
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: mind for people. Lovett and Tim talked a bit about
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: this on Wednesday's pod, but I would venture to guess
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: that Trump saying in his Time interview that he'd let
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: states monitor women's pregnancies is a policy that probably doesn't
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: land too well with the vast majority of voters in
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: this country. But, you know, you are the host of
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: Polar Coaster, so what do you think?
• 20:55
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 20:56
  Speaker 5: Well, let me look at all the... Let me dial
• 20:58
  Speaker 5: up some poll numbers and see what this says. Let's
• 21:03
  Speaker 5: take a walk down memory lane for a second. Do
• 21:05
  Speaker 5: you remember... In 2012, the leading contender to be Mitt
• 21:09
  Speaker 5: Romney's vice presidential pick was not Paul Ryan. It was
• 21:13
  Speaker 5: a man named Bob McDonnell, who was the very popular
• 21:16
  Speaker 5: governor of Virginia. I don't remember this. He was a
• 21:18
  Speaker 5: very popular governor of Virginia. And Virginia was at the
• 21:21
  Speaker 5: point that was a huge swing state. If Obama could
• 21:24
  Speaker 5: not win Virginia, it made the calculus to getting 270
• 21:26
  Speaker 5: very challenging. So the thought was Romney would pick McDonnell.
• 21:29
  Speaker 5: He would win Virginia. He would be president of the
• 21:31
  Speaker 5: United States. But in the run-up to Mitt Romney making
• 21:33
  Speaker 5: his decision, Virginia Republicans tried to pass a law, under
• 21:37
  Speaker 5: McDonald's leadership, tried to pass a law that would require
• 21:39
  Speaker 5: every woman who wanted an abortion to have a, and
• 21:44
  Speaker 5: I'm using their words, not mine, a transvaginal ultrasound before
• 21:47
  Speaker 5: they can.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: Get an abortion. Now I do remember this, yes.
• 21:50
  Speaker 5: And that law was so unpopular that they couldn't pass it.
• 21:54
  Speaker 5: It created a national scandal, and it completely sunk Bob
• 21:56
  Speaker 5: McDonald's political career. Now, states monitoring women's pregnancies, government, state
• 22:04
  Speaker 5: governments monitoring women's pregnancy makes that law look popular. You
• 22:08
  Speaker 5: would have to design in a lab something to be
• 22:11
  Speaker 5: as unpopular and fucking weird as what Trump is suggesting here.
• 22:16
  Speaker 5: I mean, God bless the Biden campaign for going up
• 22:18
  Speaker 5: as quickly.
• 22:18
  Speaker 6: As they are.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: This is exactly- That was very quick.
• 22:21
  Speaker 5: It was great.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: I was like, wait a minute. This is not a
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: digital ad. This is a seven-figure buy in the swing states.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: I was wondering if they had another ad and they
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: just added the newscast- It.
• 22:32
  Speaker 5: Isn't that the old ad? They just spliced it in?
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: I think it's part of the old ad.
• 22:35
  Speaker 5: I'm sure they have a lot of footage in the can.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: And they just threw in David Mirror at the top there.
• 22:40
  Speaker 5: As one does.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: As one does in an ad, yeah. But no, I
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: imagine they heard what we all did or read what
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: we all did. Whatever you do with Time Magazine.
• 22:49
  Speaker 5: I'll tell you what you don't do. You don't see
• 22:52
  Speaker 5: it on the newsstand.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: I saw some ex-Time reporters getting mad at you for
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: pointing that out, Dan.
• 22:59
  Speaker 5: I mean, just, I mean, it's just like, have some self-awareness, people.
• 23:05
  Speaker 5: The point of Time Magazine was, being on the cover was,
• 23:08
  Speaker 5: it sat on the newsstand and that people would see
• 23:11
  Speaker 5: you on the cover, even if they weren't buying it.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: I guess there's still newsstands at airports, right? I guess
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: sometimes you walk around the city, you can see some.
• 23:18
  Speaker 6: I don't know.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: I don't know where people are seeing Time.
• 23:21
  Speaker 5: They're not.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: It's the airports.
• 23:22
  Speaker 5: They're not. They're not seeing Time. I mean, I wish
• 23:24
  Speaker 5: Time magazine was a great entity. I wish we still
• 23:26
  Speaker 5: lived in a world where it mattered. It does not.
• 23:28
  Speaker 5: The fact that Donald Trump did an 83-minute interview with
• 23:31
  Speaker 5: a relatively irrelevant print magazine to just drop opposition research
• 23:36
  Speaker 5: for the Biden campaign. It was a weird decision, but
• 23:38
  Speaker 5: I guess we should be grateful for it.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: I will say it's also an example of like, everyone,
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: a lot of reporters have tried to, how do you
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: interview Donald Trump? How do you really get him? And
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: I do think that asking him just simple questions about
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: policies that are going to elicit an answer like this
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: one did is the way to go. Because all he
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: said was like, what do you think about states that
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: might do that? And in Donald Trump's lizard brain, right,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: it's just states. It's all up to the states. It's
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: all up to the states. So he cannot bring himself
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: to weigh in in any way on the substance of
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: this debate, this policy debate, because he has no fucking
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: idea what he's talking about. And someone finally just got
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: him to say, I leave it up to the states.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: And now he thinks that's that's his get out of
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: jail free card. And, you know, it's then he lands
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: in a situation like this where he's now saying, yeah, sure.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: States can monitor women's pregnancies.
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: Great idea.
• 24:31
  Speaker 6: Unbelievable.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: Unbelievable.
• 24:34
  Speaker 5: All right.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: With all the protests and abortion banning going on everywhere,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: you'd be forgiven for not noticing that Congress is back
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: in session, barely. And that's where we find our friend
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Marjorie Taylor Greene plunging ahead with her quest to topple
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Speaker Mike Johnson, despite having nowhere near the votes that
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: she needs. That's because almost no one in her party
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: supports the effort, including Donald Trump, and because House Democrats
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: have said they'll join most Republicans in voting to kill
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: the resolution and save Johnson. On Wednesday, she held a
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: press conference to explain herself and define herself against what
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: she's calling the Uniparty.
• 25:10
  Speaker 5: If this vote fails and the whole conference, the whole
• 25:13
  Speaker 5: Congress supports the Uniparty, let me tell you something. That
• 25:16
  Speaker 5: is not a failure. It's a win for the American
• 25:19
  Speaker 5: people because that's a list of names.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: You're on notice, rest of Congress. Are we part of
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: the Uniparty?
• 25:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I think so. We are.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: We're part of the Uniparty. That's cool. You think there's
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: any method to her madness besides... getting more followers and
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: juicing her small dollar donations?
• 25:36
  Speaker 5: No, I think you pretty much covered it.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: That's it, right? She's just an attention merchant.
• 25:41
  Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I will say that she is obviously a wackadoodle,
• 25:45
  Speaker 5: but she does have an intuitively sophisticated understanding of modern
• 25:51
  Speaker 5: American politics, which is attention is power. If they're talking
• 25:54
  Speaker 5: about you, you're winning. And just in any other world
• 25:58
  Speaker 5: where she didn't do these things, she is a backbencher-
• 26:01
  Speaker 5: Congresswoman in a safe seat from Georgia. We would never
• 26:05
  Speaker 5: know who she was. We'd never speak about her. No
• 26:06
  Speaker 5: one could raise money for her. And she is staying
• 26:11
  Speaker 5: in the spotlight. And so this is a short and
• 26:14
  Speaker 5: long-term win for her, even if it is absolutely embarrassing.
• 26:17
  Speaker 5: And it's uncomfortable for her colleagues, which obviously she doesn't
• 26:21
  Speaker 5: really care about.
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: No. No.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: But I even wonder if all the– like at some
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: point when all of MAGA World starts turning on you
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: and I don't know how– I don't know how well
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: that goes for you. I mean, but it's like it's
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: just such a loser in a whiner. It's like, you
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: know what, if if you want to let Putin take Ukraine,
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: if you want to shut down the government, like go
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: elect more right wing kooks.
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: Like, you know, go go win yourself a house majority
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: of of other, you know, fascist CrossFit instructors and they
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: can elect you speaker and then you can get like
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: a whole bunch done, you know. But the idea that
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: you don't get your own way just because you're a
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: loud asshole, that's how you're going to get your own way?
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: That only works for Donald Trump.
• 27:00
  Speaker 5: If only there was an example of a loud right-wing
• 27:04
  Speaker 5: asshole who could get their way without using traditional means
• 27:07
  Speaker 5: of politics.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: He's a special guy. He's a special guy, Dan. At
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: the same event, Marge held up a blue hat. Not
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: a red hat, a blue hat that didn't say MAGA.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: It said MUGA, which Marjorie Taylor Greene said stands for
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: Make Ukraine Great Again. And then she spent several awkward
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: moments trying to balance the hat on top of a
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: blown up photo of Mike Johnson shaking hands with Hakeem Jeffries.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: So two questions on this. Can Marjorie Taylor Greene successfully
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: define this election as MAGA versus MUGA? And separately, are
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: you seeing any indication that Republicans are paying for their
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Ukraine vote with the base, since there were a lot
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: of them that actually voted for funding?
• 27:49
  Speaker 5: I don't feel like Mooga really rolls off the tongue.
• 27:52
  Speaker 5: Like I'm struggling to say it, like there's a bad
• 27:53
  Speaker 5: mouthfeel in it.
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: Mooga.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: Mooga.
• 27:57
  Speaker 5: I'm not seeing any real evidence that there is a
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: revolt in the base. I think for a couple of reasons.
• 28:01
  Speaker 5: The first and most important one is that Donald Trump
• 28:03
  Speaker 5: is not inciting a revolt in the base. He basically
• 28:07
  Speaker 5: tacitly signed off on this. If he wanted to sink.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: This bill- Once again, takes a special kind of loud asshole,
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: you know?
• 28:12
  Speaker 5: No, so he got, if he were out there hammering,
• 28:15
  Speaker 5: there would be a revolt. So that's the main reason.
• 28:17
  Speaker 5: The other reason is I think Ultimately, and this is
• 28:20
  Speaker 5: true on both sides of the Ukraine funding debate, and
• 28:22
  Speaker 5: I don't think this speaks particularly well of the body politic,
• 28:25
  Speaker 5: but I don't think people care that much. It's just
• 28:28
  Speaker 5: it's not– one way or the other, we are very
• 28:30
  Speaker 5: detached from this and people are not thinking about it
• 28:34
  Speaker 5: all the time. And so there are other reasons for
• 28:36
  Speaker 5: the Congress to get mad at people for doing and
• 28:38
  Speaker 5: not doing things. And this is– like a reporter reached
• 28:40
  Speaker 5: out to me. It's like, how should Biden sell this?
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: And I was like, I don't know that he has to.
• 28:45
  Speaker 5: I think it's just he did that. He got it done.
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: And that's an example of getting something done. And that's worthwhile.
• 28:49
  Speaker 5: But it's not you don't have to be out there
• 28:50
  Speaker 5: selling the Ukraine aid bill.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the Republican place has, you know, plenty to get
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: mad at gas stoves, pronouns.
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: Just they got a whole long list.
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: They don't. They are just they're on to the next. Yeah.
• 29:02
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: So you take Ukraine off the list. They got plenty
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: more where that came from. OK, a couple quick things
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: before we go to break. As you know, we wrote
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: a book. Tommy Leavitt and I have a book coming
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: out called Democracy or Else, How to Save America in
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: 10 Easy Steps. Dan, we are already 34% toward our
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: pre-order target. And we're really grateful to everyone who's in
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: that 34%. Thank you, guys.
• 29:23
  Speaker 5: What's your target?
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: It's 100%.
• 29:28
  Speaker 5: Good answer. Good answer. Can I tell you, I did
• 29:30
  Speaker 5: a little research in preparation for this. I did a
• 29:31
  Speaker 5: little research.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 29:32
  Speaker 5: You guys are currently number seven. on the elections subcategory
• 29:38
  Speaker 5: on Amazon.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: I didn't even know that I could check this.
• 29:42
  Speaker 5: You're an experienced author.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: I've written some books. This is someone who's written two books.
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: Three.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: I've written three books. Yet another thing I'm going to
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: be checking every day.
• 29:50
  Speaker 5: Well, here's the thing. Do you want to know who's
• 29:53
  Speaker 5: number one right now on the elections subcategory?
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, is it Kristi Noem?
• 29:57
  Speaker 5: It is fucking Kristi Noem. And so.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: Oh my God. We did not. No puppies. No puppies
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: were murdered in the writing of this book.
• 30:04
  Speaker 5: And I would just say. That's a promise I'm making
• 30:07
  Speaker 5: to you. To the 64% of you who have not
• 30:09
  Speaker 5: helped us reach the pre-order goal, you're letting Kristi Noem win.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: There is a story about how one of us during
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: a campaign accidentally hit a moose. I'm not going to
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: tell you who it was. That's why you got to
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: get the book. See, was that good?
• 30:24
  Speaker 5: That's good. That's good. Your better argument is not what's in... Look,
• 30:29
  Speaker 5: we live in a time of negative partisanship. It's not
• 30:31
  Speaker 5: what's in the book. It's how can you use the
• 30:33
  Speaker 5: book to beat Kristi Noem?
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: That's right. The book's about how you can make a
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: difference at every level of politics. It's a fun read.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: It's a quick read. And I think it has useful advice,
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: whether you are just a casual listener of Pod Save America,
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: or you're a political junkie, just scrolling through Twitter all
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: day like me. Either way, you're going to find some
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: great advice and insights in this book, not only from us,
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: but especially from all kinds of experts, strategists, organizers, activists,
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: elected officials. Got a whole crew in there. It's great.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: Dan's in there.
• 31:06
  Speaker 6: Amazing.
• 31:07
  Speaker 5: We got operatives, elected officials, smart people, and Dan.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: Dan. Yes, we Dan. Head to cricket.com slash books to
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: pre-order your copy now. Also, we want to support our
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: non-binary friends and coworkers with some merch based off a
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: very funny Love to Relieve It segment. It's a t-shirt
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: that reads, they slash them's the rules. It's a highly
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: requested merch item that's finally here. Head to cricket.com slash
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: store to pick up a shirt. When we come back,
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: Norm Eisen. You've read his op-eds. You've heard him opining
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: on CNN as a legal analyst. You follow his scintillating
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: Twitter threads. Perhaps you've read his excellent book, Trying Trump.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: And if you're Dan and me, you've definitely heard him
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: tell you all the things you're not allowed to do
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: as a White House staffer. Please welcome back to the
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: pod our friend, Norm Eisen. Norm, what's up?
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: Hey, Favs. Hey, Dan. You're bringing back fond memories of
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: all the advice I gave you, about half of which
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: you listened to.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Hey, we're still free. You know, when you were giving
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: all of us ethics training in those early White House days,
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: did you ever think 15 years later you'd be sitting
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: at the criminal trial of former President Donald Trump, who
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: apparently pointed and scowled at you as he left the courtroom?
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I did not, when we were together in the
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: Obama campaign transition in White House, think that I would
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: be an eyewitness to the first ever criminal prosecution of
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: a former American president. But when I came on Pod
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: Save America, I think in the first week of its existence,
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: to talk about Donald Trump's constitutionally prohibited acceptance of foreign
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: government cash and benefits, emoluments. I'll bet if we listen
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: that I said he's on the slippery slope to perdition.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: I would not be surprised if you had said that.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: Let's get into the trial. So you've been in the
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: courtroom these past three weeks. What are your biggest takeaways
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: so far? And most importantly, can you confirm that the
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: defendant has, in fact, been farting in the courtroom?
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: I like how you go to the critical constitutional issues,
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: but it's the constitution of his digestion and not our
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: nation's founding charter that you're most interested in. I will
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: work my way from the lofty to the earthy in
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: answering your question, Favs. The.
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: The biggest takeaway from the trial is, number one, that
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: you have the living embodiment of the American idea as
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump sits below the judge and on a lower
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: level than the jury in that somewhat faded environment of
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: Part 59. Judge Quan Mershon's courtroom. You know, our country
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: was founded on the idea that we don't want a
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: king because no man person is above the law. Everybody
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: is subject to the law. That's the American idea. And
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: holding Donald Trump accountable for his original election interference, his
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: 2016 effort to deceive voters to grasp power is an
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: expression of that idea. It's sad that we've had a
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: president for the first time in our history whose conduct
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: has allegedly broken the law to a degree where he's
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: criminally prosecuted. You do have Nixon. I've written in the
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: New York Times. I think Trump's Misconduct here is on
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: a par with or perhaps worse than Nixon's Watergate transgressions
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: because he cheated. He allegedly broke the law, campaign finance,
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: election and tax violations to win that election in 2016
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: and then covering it up. So you have the American
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: idea in action. You have the gravity of the offenses.
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: And then, you know, you have the physical weight on
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump. I can tell you that it is bearing
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: down on him the trouble that he's in. I sit
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: where I can watch him mercifully, not where I can
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: smell him. Um, but where I can watch him, uh, and, um, uh,
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: you know, some days you feel, you almost feel bad
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: for the guy because the judge chastise him one day for, um,
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: acting out. And, you know, Trump was like Peck's bad boy.
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: He hung his head. He looked down in his lap.
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: He's bowed over more. He's bent. It's almost like the
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: scoliosis of justice, you know, as he comes in and
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: out of the courtroom, you see him hunched over. So
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: it is taking a profound toll. And he's not happy
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: about it. And, you know, when he saw me twice,
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: Last week, he expressed that in, you know, I was
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: the target of his ire.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: Lucky you.
• 37:04
  Speaker 5: Do you think he recognizes you from CNN or he
• 37:07
  Speaker 5: just smells you out as someone who knows ethics and
• 37:10
  Speaker 5: therefore finds you personally distasteful?
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: My engagements with Trump date back to that famous 2012
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: White House correspondence dinner. There's a picture of me. I
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: was seated at the Washington Post table, as was he.
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: And there's a picture of me laughing my tush off
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: right next to him as he's got that Mussolini glare
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: when President Obama was roasting him.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: Well, we got him.
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: We got him, didn't we? Yeah. I'm not sure where
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: this cycle of vengeance is like the Godfather movies. Where
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: will it end? So there's that. And then I did
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: advise both transitions in 2016 as I do every cycle
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: on the same issues. that the three of us worked
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: together on keeping things ethical. Obviously, he didn't exactly take
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: my advice. I was ejected from that transition summarily with
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: the Chris Christie crowd. So that's the second thing. But
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: I think it's a combination of the first impeachment and, uh,
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: and be, and his hate watching. He's reportedly a very
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: dedicated hate watcher of CNN. So that's probably most of it.
• 38:36
  Speaker 5: When you sitting there in the trial, when you're not, uh,
• 38:39
  Speaker 5: smelling Trump or being scouted by Trump, you're watching the
• 38:41
  Speaker 5: prosecution make their case. What is, how do you think
• 38:46
  Speaker 5: they're doing? Are they doing an effective job? And if
• 38:49
  Speaker 5: you were trying this case, what's the one thing that
• 38:51
  Speaker 5: would worry you about the evidence?
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: I do think the prosecution has done an effective job
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: and the defense has had very good moments too. If
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump would just let his lawyers do their job
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: instead of forcing them reportedly be more aggressive, the defense,
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: I think, would be putting on a very good showing here.
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: The most worrisome part of the case is is that
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: when you look at the witnesses, I think David Pecker
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: and Keith Davidson, who have been the two-star witnesses, so far.
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: You know, they're not what you'd call highly savory individuals.
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: Like you would not be excited. Oh, great. I'm going
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: on a barge tour of European canals and I've got
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: the room next to David Becker and Keith Davidson. I mean,
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: one guy is a preeminent sleaze merchant, Becker. Second, perhaps
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: only to Larry Flint, whose name came up because he
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: was bidding for Stormy Daniels. And Davidson is a leading
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: purveyor of celebrity scandals and hush money. So if I'm
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: the prosecution, it's a little bit like, will the jury
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: believe those witnesses? That would be my anxiety. But Dan,
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: the prosecution has built a very clever case in response
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: to that because everything in the case corroborates everything else.
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: So you would have to believe that everybody's lying and
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: all the documents are lying. And we were listening to
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: audio recordings today that those are fabricated and that Michael
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: Cohen on his own... Paid for the Stormy Daniels story
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: and was never reimbursed. And there's a pile of documents
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: proving he was reimbursed. So I just, I think the
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: coherence of the case is going to carry the day
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: with the jury. The other thing that I would be
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: most worried about, I wrote about this for CNN. I'm
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: doing a trial diary for them. So I do a
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: couple of entries a day. Donald Trump does not want
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: to persuade 12 jurors. He wants to persuade one juror.
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: He's searching for one angry juror and for a hung jury,
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: which he will proclaim as a great victory. So that
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: would be my anxiety, that there's a Trojan horse on
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: the jury who's going to do what we call jury nullification,
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: ignore the evidence, ignore the law in favor of Trump.
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: Or one Trump supporter who just sees this proof differently.
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: So those are some of the main anxieties. But I
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: think the prosecution is solving for those.
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: Speaking of the jury, you can obviously see their reactions
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: as the trial's unfolding. What has that told you about anything,
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: about how they're thinking about this?
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: It's a very educated jury, unusually so for any, you know,
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: I've been trying cases for over 30 years and have
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: been in and out of courtrooms for almost 40. I
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: had a pre-law job when I got out of college.
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: In fact, I had a legal internship when I was
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: in college. So long, long decades in courtrooms. I've never
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: had a jury with a higher educational level in any
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: of my cases than this jury. Almost everybody has a
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: college or higher degree, and you've got lawyers on there.
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: So it's a smart jury, and it shows very attentive.
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: Unlike the defendant, we haven't talked about his other bodily function,
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: his penchant for napping. Unlike the defendant, they're awake and alert.
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: You know, the.
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure what the generationally appropriate television references are,
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: but the trial by design is like a combination of Dynasty,
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: of a primetime soap opera, and Columbo.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: I can assure you those are not the correct.
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I figured I figured at least I have my self-awareness.
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: I have my self-awareness. And and so even when you
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: have these these more mundane witnesses who are explaining how
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: the documents came into evidence or how they unlocked Michael
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: Cohen's cell phone pursuant to a search warrant and got
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: these tapes off of him. The jury is paying attention.
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: Many of them requested notepads. They're writing and keeping track
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: of things. And even in the more routine parts, you know, focus.
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: So that's a good sign for a prosecutor, right? You
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: don't want the jury to tune out. Now, what the
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: jury doesn't know is the reason we have to go
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: through all of these evidentiary rigmaroles is is because Trump won't,
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: it looks to me like he won't stipulate to anything.
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: So all of the usual agreements that you have in
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: a trial, he's forcing the prosecution to prove up every
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: piece of paper, every email, every text. And that's unusual
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: and can wear a jury down. But so far, they're
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: hanging in there. That's a very good sign for the prosecution.
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: And obviously, it's a Manhattan jury. So no wonder Trump
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: is risking gag order violations by criticizing the jury. He's
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: very upset that a bunch of Democrats are likely Democrats
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: are sitting in judgment of him.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: You mentioned the possibility of a hung jury. That was
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: obviously the outcome of the case where John Edwards was
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: tried for a similar campaign finance violation, hush money. In
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: that case, one big difference was it was It was
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: more unclear whether John Edwards was paying the hush money to,
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: you know, hide it from his his wife or from
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: the voters. It seems like the prosecution will have an
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: easier time proving that it was from the voters in
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: this case. Are there other sort of similarities in the
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: case or other weaknesses in this line of or in
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: this type of case? that sort of worry you? Like,
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: what does the prosecution really have to prove here? And
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: what do you think is different about this than the
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: Edwards case, aside from sort of the motivation for the
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: hush money?
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: The lay down of the law in New York State
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: is different. They will have to prove to the jury,
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: this is the critical issue, this is where the case
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: will be won or lost, that Donald Trump intended to
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: to conceal, aid, or commit another crime. And in the
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: opening statements, they put three possibilities before the jury that
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump was intending to violate federal campaign finance law,
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: New York criminal election influence law, or tax law by
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: misstating his reimbursements to Cohen as income to Cohen. They've
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: really led with that campaign and election theme. And the
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: every witness, the big witnesses so far, Pecker and Davidson,
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: has said that this was being done to benefit the
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: Trump campaign. Pecker was particularly important for the prosecution to
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: bridge this chasm, Favs, because he said we entered an
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: agreement at Trump Tower, me, Trump, and Michael Cohen in
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: August 2015, that we were going to catch and kill
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: these stories. We were going to make payments to people
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: to benefit the Trump campaign, to help the Trump campaign.
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: Cohen will testify about Trump's intent, but you have Pecker saying,
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: who is a corroborating witness and the prosecution is carrying
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: that intent forward. The difference with the Edwards case is
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: The witnesses were weak. One of the key witnesses, Bunny Mellon,
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: was too old and frail to testify. Another witness had
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: passed away. And the witnesses they put on the stand
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: did not give you this kind of devastating testimony that
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: you got from Pecker. So in trials, my CNN trial
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: diary I'm writing for today, the thing that we lawyers
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: say to each other is, When a case is going
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: on and you bump into the trial lawyer, how is
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: the case coming in, right? We all have, as that
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: noted litigator Mike Tyson said, everybody has a plan until
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: they're punched in the face. We all have plans when
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: we go to court. How is the case coming in?
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: This case is coming in strong. And it'll come down
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: to Michael Cohen. But I think this jury, I've been
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: studying this jury. I think this jury is going to
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: believe Michael Cohen, as Judge Ngoran did in the civil
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: fraud case. He's a character. He's a colorful New Yorker.
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: But this is a jury that understands New Yorkers. And, um, uh,
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: so I think the case is coming in well, and
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: that's the big difference with Edwards.
• 48:42
  Speaker 5: Trump continued his, he's under a gag order. He's been
• 48:45
  Speaker 5: held in contempt, fined nine, a whopping $ 9, 000. I don't
• 48:47
  Speaker 5: know what properties can have to sell to cover that bill,
• 48:50
  Speaker 5: but he wants to, he wants again, uh, potentially violated
• 48:55
  Speaker 5: by truthing about and talking about Michael Cohen are apparently
• 48:58
  Speaker 5: the person who all of democracy now, uh, depends on
• 49:01
  Speaker 5: based on your analysis here. Um, Is there any way
• 49:06
  Speaker 5: in which Judge Mershon can actually get Trump to adhere
• 49:10
  Speaker 5: to the rules of this gag order short of sending
• 49:13
  Speaker 5: him to prison? Should he send him to prison? Should
• 49:15
  Speaker 5: that be on the table?
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: He may have to cut his gas ex budget to
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: pay those fines, Dan. For the record, my ethics training
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: for Dan and Favs and about 1,200 others, I tried
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: to train everybody personally, was liberally leavened. With that kind
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: of borscht belt humor.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: That's why we love you, Norm.
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: It was standing room only to get into those ethics trainings. So,
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: you know, I think that the judge has got him
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: on a leash. Trump has not violated the gag order
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: since these two orders for show cause were served. And
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: I think that is because Trump knows. It doesn't mean
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: he won't do it. But he knows the next time
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: he does it, he's at very serious risk of being
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: stepped back. Not for a long time, the judge saying, look,
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: you're going to spend your evening in a jail cell, Mr.
• 50:29
  Speaker 7: Trump.
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: You're going to have an overnight with the Secret Service
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: in a jail cell. And I think Trump is going
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: to make a calculus. Does he benefit more or harm
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: himself more by being stepped back? Even if it's only
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: for a short time, if there's a 15th alleged violation,
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: there's been 14 alleged so far. As he says, is
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: there going to be a little bit of martyr action?
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: He says he's going to be a modern day Nelson Mandela.
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: And does he want to save that shot for a
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: powerful impact like when, you know, there's some moment in
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: the case when he really wants to draw attention to it?
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: I also think he's not keen to spend a night
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: in a holding cell. That is not his desire to
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: But he certainly is not going to hold back out
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: of respect for the jury, respect for the witnesses, respect
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: for the court staff, or respect for the rule of law.
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: He's going to make a calculation. The fact that he
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: hasn't erred again in the days since that second order
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: to show cause dropped shows us that he's capable of
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: holding back. The question is, you know, what side of
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: the line will his calculations fall on? If I were betting,
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: I would bet he's going to fire one more torpedo and,
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: you know, take the consequences to make a point. Yeah.
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: I saw that he was asked after their trial today, Thursday.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: if he's going to testify. And he said, I can't
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: testify because of this gag order. Obviously, it's not true,
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: not how that works. I don't have a legal degree,
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: but I know that's not how that works. But it
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: seems like there's no, you can't imagine a universe where
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: he testifies or Todd Blanch and his team let him testify, right?
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump is calling the shots on this legal team,
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: not Todd Blanch. or Susan Necklace, or Emil Bove, all
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: of whom are very competent lawyers. We would not have
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: seen the gag order argument that we saw this morning,
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: where the judge basically asked the lawyers Why are you
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: saying these things? I mean, the judge knew what was
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: going on. The lawyers were being forced. In fact, since
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: you ask, Fabs, Blanche went full Trump this morning because
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: in his argument on the gag order, he started out
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: by attacking the press, saying it's their fault. They're writing
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: about this. So he criticized the press, classic Trump. He
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: then turned on Michael Cohen again. Trumpism, and he ended
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: by complaining about all the Democrats on the jury when
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: he was defending Trump's attack on the jury, to which
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: the judge basically said, come on. So I think that,
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: you know, I'm not sure the lawyers will be able
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: to stop him, but the comment today probably shows that
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: he knows he will be demolished on cross and And
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: he's willing to take his chances, roll his dice on
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: that one Trojan Trump juror, the one jury nullifier. He
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: may think the case is, you know, he may think
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: he has some candidates on that jury. So not everybody
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: on the jury is a Pod Save America listener, although
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: I'll bet there's a bunch of them.
• 54:22
  Speaker 5: I hope not because.
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: They're not listening to this episode. They are following instructions
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: on that jury.
• 54:32
  Speaker 5: That's good.
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: That's good. Question about the leaving this trial for a
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: second question about the immunity case. You described it as
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: one of the most important cases to appear before the
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: Supreme Court oral arguments last week. What did you think
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: of the oral arguments, and what are you reading from
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: the tea leaves?
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: The Supreme Court is not going to authorize Donald Trump
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: to send SEAL Team 6 out to commit assassinations, because
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: they might piss him off if he's re-elected, and he'll
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: send SEAL Team 6 to that. So they're not going
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: to do that. They've already... approached the edge of complicity,
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: and they'll be over the edge if they delay this
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: case much beyond May 20th. That would be the date
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: on a par with the 14th Amendment case, Anderson, in
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: which a decision was issued. There, Donald Trump was actually
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: on the ballot. There was no rush. They didn't want
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: any cloud on his candidacy. I mean, how much more
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: important is that for the American people to know if
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: the man abused the office that he seeks to recover
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: to commit crimes or not. So if they go past
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: May 20, they will then have crossed the line of complicity.
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: And then the other question is, are they going to
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: remand the case in a way that makes it impossible
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: to get to trial? before the election by setting up
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: some test and requiring the judge to do fact-finding under
• 56:18
  Speaker 3: the test? Or are they going to take Amy Coney
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: Barrett's musings to heart and say, here's the test, and
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: we're applying the test May 20th, we're sending it back down,
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: and here's what's left of the case, go to trial? Unfortunately,
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: I think the court is profoundly compromised Certainly four of
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: the judges who didn't even want to talk about what
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump is actually accused of doing, right? Thomas, who
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: shouldn't even be on this case. His wife is a
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: material witness in the January 6th investigation. That's insane. Alito,
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: who's completely off his rocker, who yelled at Obama in
• 56:59
  Speaker 3: that State of the Union where he warned that the
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: danger of Citizens United. Favs, I might have worked with
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: you on that line in the speech.
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's our fault.
• 57:09
  Speaker 3: I remember going back and forth. No fault. I mean,
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: it was right.
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: No, I just do what you tell me.
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: I think you had the last pen on that line, Favs.
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: Ram called me the next morning. I thought early, early
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: the next morning, I thought he was going to be
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: upset with me. He's like, oh, my God. He's like,
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: pour it on. Call every reporter, pour it on. That's
• 57:36
  Speaker 3: a good issue for us.
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: It doesn't sound like Rahm.
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: And then Kavanaugh and Gorsuch. Gorsuch, who was in law
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: school with me and Obama and Kavanaugh, they are complicit
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: as far as I'm concerned. The question is, will the
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: center hold and decide this case timely by May 20
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: and in a way that allows us to get to trial?
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: If they don't, then they too will be a part
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: of handmaiden in Trump's attempted grab for an autocratic presidency.
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: So that's what's at stake. And, you know, we'll see.
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: I've marked that date on my calendar, May 20. Okay.
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 58:22
  Speaker 5: Well, the center hold in the center is Amy Coney Barrett.
• 58:25
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: I know. It's– That's where we are.
• 58:28
  Speaker 3: I'm not sounding a clarion call of optimism here, Dan.
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: But we'll see. Let's see what happens. Let's mark May
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: 20th and let's see if they– she's been a little–
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: She's been a little less doctrinaire. So I don't know her.
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: I know a bunch of the others, but people who
• 58:49
  Speaker 3: practice law with her said she was non-crazy. So we'll see.
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: She was hopping mad in the abortion case.
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: Well, that's not surprising. That's not surprising. Norm Eisen, thanks
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: for joining Pod Save America, as always. And we'll have
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: to have you back as the trial continues. And we'll
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: circle May 20th on our calendars, too, about the date
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: for the immunity case.
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: I'm here for you. Thanks for having me, Favs, Dan.
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: And thanks for what you do on Pod Save America.
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: It's so important to all of us that you guys
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: are out there. So thank you.
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: Thanks to Norm for, you know, informing us and entertaining
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: us today. That was just fantastic. It was a Norm
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: Eisen tour de force, Dan.
• 59:41
  Speaker 5: I mean, it was everything I thought it would be
• 59:43
  Speaker 5: and more.
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: Me too.
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: Me too.
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: I love Norm. All right. Everyone have a great weekend
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: and we'll be back with a new episode on Tuesday.
• 59:51
  Speaker 5: Bye, everyone.
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: If you want to get ad-free episodes, exclusive content, and more,
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: consider joining our Friends of the Pod subscription community at crooked.com
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: slash friends. And if you're already doom-scrolling, don't forget to
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• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: a review. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: Our show is produced by Olivia Martinez and David Toledo.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: Our associate producers are Saul Rubin and Farrah Safari. Kira
• 1:00:22
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• 1:00:26
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• 1:00:29
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• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Writing support by Hallie Kiefer. Madeline
• 1:00:35
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• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: is our head of production. Andy Taft is our executive assistant.
• 1:00:41
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