Latest / Spiritual Hot Sauce / “A Conversation with Jeromy Johnson: What Is Christian Universalism” Ep#23

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“A Conversation with Jeromy Johnson: What Is Christian Universalism” Ep#23 · Spiritual Hot Sauce

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: How do you define salvation?
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: And is it exclusive?
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: Today we talked to Jeremy Johnson, a former evangelical pastor who has deconstructed and now embraces Christian Universalism ideology.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: He's also the creator and host of the podcast Sluddy Grace.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Christianity.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: This is where believers and skeptics alike are invited to embark on a journey of faith, philosophy, and life from a different perspective.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Whether we are joined by an insightful guest, we just jump into the deep end.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: This exploration promises to challenge us all.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: Are we getting it right?
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: This is Spiritual Hot Sauce.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: Jeremy Johnson, welcome to the sauce.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, man.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: Glad to be here.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: I love hot sauce.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, hey, thank you.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so you are the host of Slutty Grace, which I still don't know how I feel about that name, but I it's safe in assuming, I think, that you're a universalist.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: Is that correct?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would say maybe a Christian universalist, a biblical universalist.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and Slutty Grace, that's it's it's like blue cheese.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: You either love it or hate it.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: And there's people who love that title, and there's people who absolutely hate the title.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's a conversation starter, though, for sure, because immediately I think that's probably what people want to talk to about, isn't it?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Does that open up the door?
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell It does open up conversations and it's just it's a natural filter, right?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you're going to be offended by that name, then you'll probably definitely be offended by these ideas of universal grace and universal reconciliation and God's love that goes for all.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I can't wait to get into universalism with you and let you uh I should correctly say this Christian universalism, because there is a distinct difference.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: But before we get into that, can you tell us about you, yourself, and your background?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because you come from an evangelical past, correct?
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's been, you know, it's like everything, like growing up, like it's been a good foundation, I think, for my life.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's there's some stuff that comes with that too.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so as I was growing up, I started getting involved in youth ministries where basically churches build these youth groups.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: They have a youth pastor and they have youth groups.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: And really the the whole point of that is to create a safe space for youth to come to be part of a group and to really wrestle with these ideas of God.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so I landed in Sonora in a really, really good youth group, really good pastor, some good leadership, became a good friend of mine.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: I actually became a middle school intern when I was in high school.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: And and I just, I just I loved it.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: I loved being a part of that.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: I loved the people that were there.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I just started feeling a calling into the ministry.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so I shifted from maybe chasing after an architectural degree to a Bible college degree.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: So right after high school, I ended up going to San Jose Christian College, which was a small Bible Christian college in San Jose, and got a degree there in C very useful degree now in Bible theology with a minor in youth ministry and emphasis in pastoral ministry.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: And learned a lot, but even in that space, I've always been a questioner.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'd be taught some things that I would just like, gosh, but tell me more about that.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that doesn't quite make sense.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why is it that the Bible that we have was voted on by a group of men in the second to third century, and then they just decided like these are the scriptures that are gonna go in in the Bible, and it was overseen by the emperor.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it's almost like if Donald Trump were to get a bunch of evangelicals together in a room, and they all just hashed out and decided what was gonna be in scripture.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's kind of what happened.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so for those that are familiar or maybe not familiar, there's lots of different expressions within the Christian church.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's there's Bible churches, there's Christian churches and which are traditionally evangelical.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: I went to a vineyard church for a while and ministered there for a couple of years.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: And while I was there at that vineyard church, this is where that door started to crack open.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think through this process of going through different expressions of within the Christian faith, I started to see that there are lovely, beautiful, smart, intelligent, well-meaning people who also read the Bible and come to different conclusions.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: So you're starting to see a broader expression of that.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: I started getting introduced to authors like Brian McLaren, and he wrote a book called a series called New Kind of Christian.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that really just started opening up all those questions that I was wrestling with, giving voice to those.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it was one of the first times in my life where someone was asking and speaking those kind of thoughts and questions in a public sphere.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just captivated by that.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: Through that process, I began to really there's a term called deconstruction.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you're familiar with that.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: We deconstruction, ex-evangelical.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: There's a a newer term called evolution, I is what they're saying now, which is softer language where you never deconstruct, you just evolve into something different.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you just kind of move.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say I deconstructed.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: I really just So yours was hard.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think like the more deeper you're kind of into evangelicalism, I think the harsher that can be because you once you start ans asking those questions, it's like pulling a thread on a sweater.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: I have a question for you.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: Now, was you ever pastoral through this?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: So so even as a youth pastor, you are you are a pastor and you are So all through this time you are the pastor?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: I am a pastor, yeah.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: All through this time.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: How many years are we talking?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: I would say probably get 12 to 15 years.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: So good.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Total.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: Total.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Good run.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: So where were you through all this time?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have slowly kind of been coming to this moment?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think, yeah, like life kind of takes us on a journey.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: And this was just my next stage in the journey where, again, through my experience of different faiths, I was starting to learn like the evangelical tradition and belief is not the only valid one.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so then that starts opening other questions.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a hell?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: What is salvation?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: What does it mean to follow God and have faith in God?
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: And you start asking some of these questions, but the the gay and homosexual question was really big at that time.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I was really wrestling with what time is this?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Give me a kind of a year.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: So this is probably early 2000s at this stage.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: So this has been a while ago.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: So this was early 2000s.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that was one of the first questions.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: That and and hell really started to just expand my heart.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: Started to open myself up to where, you know, maybe these clobber verses about homosexuality, there's, you know, six or seven of them aren't really talking about what we believe homosexuality is.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so then you're like, well, then if scripture was translated weird that way, what other ways, right?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: And as you start to, I believe we all have a God lens, Chris, right?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: The lens that we look at God with.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And some lens says there is no God.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Some lens says God is a just and loving God, but justice kind of wins out.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Another lens says, God, God is against me.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: God doesn't like me, and I have to earn God's favor.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: Another lens is, and this is probably where I landed, we were never separated from God, much like a father is never separated from his heart towards his kids.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: God's love is not exclusive.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: It applies and is for everyone.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: And all of us are God's kids.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: See, I was taught like you were only God's children once you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: Then all of a sudden, magically you become one of God's kids.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that just never made sense to me.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, if God created us all, right, if that's your belief, then wouldn't that make us all God's kids?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: Aaron Powell Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the universalist idea that we are all God's kids and we are all going to be reconciled back to Him.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: Am I correct?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Yeah.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: And there's there's different forms of universalism.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: So probably the two broad camps, and these are just broad camps of what Christian universalist is, is that they all agree that we will all ultimately be reconciled or brought back to God, and we will all be united with God.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the universalist part.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: One camp says that there is going to be a period of punishment, of refinement, where if you have not really dealt with your sins or have not accepted Jesus Christ, there's a period to where those sins are going to be refined.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's kind of like a period of sanctification.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: Purgatory is another phrase that I think the Catholic Church uses for this.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: To where, yeah, there might be a time of like physical hell, quote unquote, physical separation, physical redeeming of your sins and the choices that you've made.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: But that period is not as brief and it's not forever.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: And eventually, once you get through that, then you'll be brought back into the grace of God.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: Aaron Powell Okay.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: So there is a time of punishment.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: Does that involve hellfire or a torment, or is that something different?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Some some believe that.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Some believe that there that there might be a physical hell that you that you go to and that the fire is refining.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: Burning away the this part that's unacceptable to God before you can be in.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus And I think a lot of that that language in Scripture is metaphorical when it's talking about fire.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: And fire, even through the Old Testament and New Testament, was always this reference of cleansing, of purging, right?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: It was never this eternal conscious torment where you were just sent away into eternal hell flames forever.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: So do you think that the eternal hell kind of always burning is just it always burning?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's not us always burning.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's just the flames itself.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Is that what you think that means?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's much more.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: Probably flames itself.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: There's even and I'm not like the greatest theologian, but I've talked to enough people to understand that a lot of the language of eternal is just it means ages.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's not everlasting, which gets translated for everlasting, like never-ending, but it's a period of ages.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so ages always have a beginning and an end.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And there's lots of there's lots of great books out there that really dive into that original language of what does eternal, what does everlasting mean?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: When did that shift take place when the scripture mistranslated that?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, on my podcast, Benji, I think it's it's been a few episodes ago, but he wrote a book called A Hope in Hell.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it really talks and dives into that language of what is hell, what is separation, what is the period of ages.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so give a look, listen to that, or even grab his book.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: A Hope in Hell.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: A Hope in Hell.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's by an Englishman named Benji.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so he, very brilliant guy, and I loved having him on.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, there's a lot of resources if you guys are interested in looking more at some of the original languages and things of when that when that happened.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: So but you're saying that not all Christian Universalists believe in a time of hell or a time of being punished, that they think you're just reconciled.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: So now we've kind of described a little bit about uh temporary punishment of whatever that means, of being punished or having things burnt away from us that's impurities to make us more pure, so we're, I guess, more acceptable to be in the presence of God, uh if I'm correct on that.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's that's a good summary.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: So Okay.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: So what's the other version?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: The other side is and so that side is usually called like ultimate reconciliation, right?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Ultimately everyone's going to be reconciled, but there might be a period of uh purging that that takes place.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: Aaron Powell Links for different people?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: The purging?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure that there might be a lot of people.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: I just wonder what the belief is there.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, then like this is all mystery, right?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like we don't know.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so and when you think of if God is like above time and above ages, then I don't know.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what all that looks like, obviously.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's all mystery.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: So and I think that's the biggest thing is I am okay with mystery.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm okay with with sitting with the questions and not knowing the answers necessarily.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm perfectly fine with that.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, the other bigger probably form of of universalism, biblical universalism, is this notion that separation was always a myth.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: This idea that we were separated from God was never true.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so if there never was like a separation from God, then all this effort for us to become right is just for ourselves.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: So when they say, like, you know, John 3.16, right?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: For God so loved the world that whoever, you know, believes in him shall not perish, but will have everlasting life.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's a but then it goes on for God to not send a son of the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him, which sounds very universalist, right?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: But that verse of this idea of belief and salvation in my journey always meant like our belief triggered God's action.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: When I believe that Jesus died for my sins, God can now be free to forgive and offer me grace.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: So my belief triggered God's action.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's just and that's just what we were taught.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like God will forgive you once you believe in him.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: The evangelical perspective.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: The evangelical perspective.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: So what if that verse was saying when you believe rightly, you will find freedom, you will find salvation from that belief that God is angry at you, that God doesn't love you, that God is separated from you.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: When you change that belief that God isn't mad at you, God, God loves you, God was never separated from you, you you receive salvation in that your entire mindset changes.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you now view the entire world and you now view God completely differently.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of fearing God and running from God, you're like, oh, I was never ever really separated.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: And to me, I think that, and this is that that second part of universalism, is that we will all one day understand how much God erratically loved us, how much God was never against us, how much we are all God's kids and always were God's kids.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I have a question because this is very interesting to me.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: If we, from the Christian perspective that we're saved, and like you were saying, we're saved whether we realize it or not.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: But when you come to understand that it changes your perspective and how you see others.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: Does it matter what religion you are then?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you're saved no matter what, what's the key Hindu from I mean, you know what I mean?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: Or Buddhist or an atheist.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: We're all saved.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: So can you not pick your own religion of how you want to believe?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell And I think that idea of separation, even with us, right?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like we have these separate religions, we have these separate things.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like if we just view ourselves as humans and as God's kids, and we're just trying our best to understand what that looks like, then yeah, I think that's a universalist is a universalist, but I guess just so I understand.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: So a Christian universalist is still plugged into the universalist world.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's just the perspective you're coming to it with, is yours is through biblical understanding and Jesus, where someone else might be coming to it through the Bhagavad Gita and understanding of Brahman, but it's still coming to the same place to the same God, and we're all saved.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: Is my understanding of that correct?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's probably like the broader universalism.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: I do believe that the work of Jesus did something, right?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: That that showed something and accomplished something.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: And through that we can all come to God.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I also think that this notion of separate beliefs is like we might name it differently.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: We might name God differently.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: The Native Americans call the great spirit.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Someone said that well, are you saying that then all roads lead to God?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: God will meet us on any road.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so if your road is Hindu, God is going to meet you there.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: There's a scripture in the Bhagavad Gita, and it says this.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it's Shri Krishna and Arjuna.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: And uh they're having this conversation.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: Shri Krishna is an incarnation of God, and Arjuna is this warrior prince.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: And he asks God, How many gods are there?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: And he says, Look up in the sky, how many stars do you see?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, in Hinduism, they have so many deities.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: But he keeps pushing in.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: He doesn't like his answer, and he keeps pushing in until Shri Krishna says, there's only one God.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: And he's then he asks, well, then why is there all of these different gods that we understand and know?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: And he says, Because it's how you need to see God.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not that there is a difference in God, but God is so big you can't understand me anyway.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: So if you need to see me like this, well, then I will make it like this.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: But it's more about you getting what you need to from the relationship.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: Do you is that how you see it?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's actually really beautiful.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: So picture a sphere, right?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Ginormous sphere.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's a planet, right?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Or something that's that's round.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: And this is this is God.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: This is truth.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: This is the thing that that actually exists.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: And we're all standing little tiny dots on this sphere.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: And we all think, uh, my little slice that I'm looking at is true.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: You're correct.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then another person is maybe on another point of the sphere and saying, Well, my my little section here is is true.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: You're correct.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think the error is when we say, My little section is the truth.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: My little section is the only truth.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't say it like me, then you're wrong.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: The whole thing creates is truth, and we're all seeing like little parts of it.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think Mormons have a s have a certain understanding of God that maybe Jehovah's Witnesses don't.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we can learn and we can glean from all of these different understandings.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that ultimately in the end, when we my belief is is is when we die and we stand in the presence of overwhelming love.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And overwhelming grace and truth.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is just this is how we're wired.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: We're wired to receive love.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: We're wired to receive grace.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the most transformative moments here on earth is when a person finally receives love and you see that person's life just change, even from a human-to-human perspective.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: When they receive grace, like it is a very powerful thing to initiate transformation.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: God's kindness leads us to repentance.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: So you're saying there is a real thing of repentance.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't go and be lost in hedonism.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: This this is no, we should there is something about that that we understand that we get on our same journey.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: So it sounds like where you, in the evangelical perspective, you agree in that that you should take this word and you should live by it and and and repent, you know, reorientate yourself to God and start on that path in that journey, where they see it as that's how you get saved.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: And you're saying, well, no, we're already saved, but it's through that process, it just improves your life here and now.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: I was taught, I was taught you are saved when you believe.
• 21:14
  unknown: Okay.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: I now believe you are saved.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: Do you believe?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a big difference between that.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: And when we come to an understanding that we are not separated from God, we never were, then we can start walking in that here on earth early.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: We can start walking.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Jesus said the kingdom of God is here, the kingdom of God is within you, the kingdom of God is present, it's here, it's here, it's now, it's now.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when we understand that God was never angry, God was never mad, God was never separated, we can now start walking in that now ahead of time.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think ultimately that when all of God's kids die and stand in front of that loving presence, there is going to be a reckoning.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: There is going to be a God, I missed it.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: And there's going to be this overwhelming transformation, I think, that just happens in our heart.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: You've probably listened to a few like near-death experience stories.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: And a common theme is this idea that that they have experienced like literally almost a reckoning of their life.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like they die and God's there, and they are shown their entire life within a flash.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: But they're not just witnessing it like we watch Netflix.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're experiencing it.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it's within like seconds, but it should be years, because they're reliving their life.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: And all the things that they did that caused harm, they are feeling that from the other person's perspective.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: God, when I said that to my kid, when I said that out of my own wounding to whoever, or when I did this thing, I am now experiencing that through the eyes and the pain of that person that experienced it.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that transforms me.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And when I did that kind thing, when I said that loving thing, when I helped that person out, I am now experiencing that choice through their experience and feeling that and feeling the goodness of that.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: And they also say that you see the ripple effects of that choice.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like you see instantly how that choice, that negative choice that you chose impacted others, not only that person, but like maybe their kids and their kids.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then that positive choice impacted others, like, and seeing the goodness ripple effects.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: So that sounds a lot like judgment to me, right?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Where we're just, we're, we're feeling, we're seeing, we're understanding the effects of our life, but we're not feeling judged.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: God is there with us, and we're not feeling the shame and guilt.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we always think of judgment as being in trouble in court and then we're being tried.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: But you're making judgment sound more like here's the reality of what it was.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: This is for you to have to deal with, and then we'll correct this.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: But here's you what you need to know, in my understanding that that's how you're seeing judgment.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: It is, it's less about the judicial system, and it's more about your father and you and being corrected.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: And even like being corrected, but it's like, yeah, being like there's this point of it.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's to restore.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's to redeem.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's not to just punish.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I look at our prison systems in America, and it's simply to punish.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's very little redemptive purpose in it.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: But then you look at criminal systems in Europe, and there's a lot of like the point of it is for redemption to redeem, to restore that person, to heal that person.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's a point of the punishment.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just to simply punish.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like maybe a lot of our American punishment idea comes from this idea of hell.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: That hell is just like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna put you aside.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: I never want to look at you again.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna go off into this other room, and you're just gonna be punished for the rest of your existence.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's no feel better.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it means that's what I'm saying.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, does it make God feel better?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: And oh, Chris, okay, so I just this whole idea that I was taught was God cannot be in the presence of sin.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's the separation.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're sinful, so God's like, oh, I can't be in your presence.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: You have sin.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: And yet God created us and God created like this notion of sin.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: And yet you look at Jesus, so they believe that Jesus was God, came to earth, walked amongst us.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, he was walking with sinners, and he wasn't like being melted like the wicked witch being having water thrown on him.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: He was touching and healing and talking with and being amongst, and so much so that he was called a friend of sinners.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, this idea that God cannot be in the presence of sin, how do you deal with that if you believe that Jesus was God in the midst of sin and being called a friend of sinners?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: So there's this like cognitive dissidence that happens where we have this theology, but then like we believe other things too.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so this theology that I've landed on works beautifully with all of that.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: How long have you been on this theology?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: I would say I started really wrestling with this, yeah, a good 15 to 18 years ago.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: I had a a blog that was out there, it's no longer published, but it was called A Mending Shift.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I really wrestled with a lot of things for about two to three years.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then I was like, okay, I'm done.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then I stopped blogging.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I've just kind of been sitting in life, I'd say for like the last uh decade or so, not really putting myself out there.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: And why did you decide to start a podcast then?
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm and and I was curious about that.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's interesting.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: So is this the first thing that you've done to put yourself out there and talk about it?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: Or was you wrestling with different ideas?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: Or have you come to the terms like it's time for me to speak on this and promote?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Or yeah, I think the first time that I put myself out there I was deconstructing.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I was wrestling with a lot of this stuff.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: And the space that I'm in now is like I'm not de I'm not deconstructing.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: What's your relationship been like I'm on the other side of that?
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: So the evangelical friends that you had, that life that you were so connected with, what is your relationship like with them through the deconstruction and now after on the other side of this?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: Do you still have relationships there?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: I do.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: And those who who were who were friends were still really good friends.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: And my questions are helping them wrestle with things.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: And they'll say, like, you know, I'm not, I maybe I'm not landing there yet, but like we can still be friends.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: We can still be in relationship.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Others who were maybe never really within relationship, you know, not so much.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then those on the periphery are responding probably the way I may have responded back in the day.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so what the irony is there's nothing that they can tell me that I don't already know.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like they can't bring up something on the thing.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a guy that don't pose that argument.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like I used to believe that.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: I used to like, and I literally have a degree in that, right?
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, so there's not a whole lot that you can tell me, or no argument, or no position.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: But it's almost interesting looking at it because Chris, one of the great things with that has come with this belief that God's grace and love is for all people, is that the burden is no longer on my shoulders.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: When I was an evangelical, we were taught like you need to get out there and preach the gospel.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: You need to be a witness to your friends so that they can know Jesus, so that they don't go to hell, right?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you your family members, so that they don't go to hell, so that they can be saved.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: And there was this immense pressure, like to do it.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: And when you weren't doing it, like, oh, I should be doing more.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: And once you believe that all of us are God's kids and all of us are loved deeply by God, and we were never actually separated from God, your soul's not my burden.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Loving you is not even a burden.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: I can just love you.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: I can just come alongside you as a human, as co-humans, trying to make sense of this world and and everything else.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I can just come to you without a hidden agenda.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because as an evangelical, you're always coming at relationships, especially non-Christian relationships, because the world was divided in Christian and non-Christian.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Period.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: End of story.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: You're either a Christian or you're a non-Christian.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: You're either saved or you're unsaved.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: There is no in-between.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so all of your relationships with non-saved unchristians, there was always a hidden agenda.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: And Chris, it really wasn't hidden.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: People kind of knew, oh, he's doing this to try to get me or, you know, whatever.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Always had an ulterior motive.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: And to be freed from that, but if you believe that there's eternal punishment and hell and torment, you're going to do all you can to help other people.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: You will.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I almost feel like most people don't believe this.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because do you see people doing all that they can to help people not go to hell?
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think if every evangelical actually believed this, that there is an eternal torment, and the majority of humans that you see around you are going there, do they that would be their sole focus?
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: That would be their sole mission in life.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: And everything else would fail in comparison.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: And like, you know, the John 3.16 guys that hold up the like cat tip to them.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're out there on the street.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, they're like doing a thing.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like I feel like they actually believe it, but 99% of the other people who never talk about their faith, who never say that makes sense?
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's uh the actions don't match what they quote unquote believe.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, if you're in a denominational organization and you have a job, then you have to present that job.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: It may not be what you believe.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: It reminds me of politicians.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: Politicians can come forward with a belief and what they expound and their ideology, but the truth is when they're home, they don't necessarily believe that.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: They're just doing what they're paid to do.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so I guess that makes sense that you would find some of that also in pastors.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: They're doing their job.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: So if we pull back the curtain and we look at the Oz, yes, there is a big part of that.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I was just talking with uh Del Burnett.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: He was the Presbyterian pastor that really opened me up.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: And just the other day I was on the phone with him.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we were talking about that as a pastor, as a leader in a in a church, there are like there are politics involved.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: And there are certain things that you just have to navigate.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: And there's certain beliefs, no matter which church you're at, no matter what the denomination is, there are certain beliefs that you have to adhere to in order to keep receiving that paycheck.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: And if you move too far out of that belief structure, well, you're gonna move out of a paycheck.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's the undercurrent in a lot of minds is like there's just there's a like I can't ask certain questions.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that was a big tipping point for me, Chris.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: Was I had back then I had young kids and I had a wife.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: And my belief was starting to put our financial situation under stress because I after after I moved on from the Presbyterian church, I was looking at other positions.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: And for some, it might be like this belief, or another one, it might be this belief, another one might be this belief.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: And they were all kind of like saying no, no, no.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I got to the point where I was like, I want to separate this journey of belief that I'm on from my paycheck.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that's when I kind of moved out of the formal question industry.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted the freedom.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I ended up getting a job, a real job, a normal job in graphic design.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I've been loving it ever since.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: But that has allowed me the freedom to just explore and be me.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: And to even now have a podcast to where I can bring people on like you to just talk about these really, really important ideas.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: To give people, yeah, for sure.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: How's the podcast been received?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just curious how everybody else hears it.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it has been received very well.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: Back 15, 20 years ago, this idea of a slutty grace, a universal grace, a grace that does not stop giving was pretty fringe.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like there was a few people, there's an the emergent church was starting to dance in that a little bit, Brian McLaren's, Richard Rohr.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: There's a few people that were really starting to talk about this stuff.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: Within evangelicalism, other traditions are like, yeah, what are you guys talking about?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: We've known this all along.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: But within evangelicalism, fast forward to now, there is something in the water.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when you start asking people questions, like, tell me about your faith and where you're at now and why did you leave the church?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: And like you're just seeing this thread of people understanding that God's love and God's just God is so much bigger than the evangelical world gave them.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: And some are become, you know, I would say like atheists are just people mostly who don't believe in the God that they were given through church and like they just like mostly the notion of hell and this notion of this fiery God who's gonna do this, like that's the big sticking point with most atheists, you know.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that's fair.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's fair.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: So you have people who who leave the church, and I would say they're like ex-Christians where they leave the church, but they haven't left God, they haven't left Jesus, but they're really trying to find the community now.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, Chris, that's the biggest, that's the hardest part right now, is people who are in this space trying to find that community.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's there's one thing that church is really good at, and that's like building a group of people with community with like minds that can hang out with their kids and have birthday parties, and you become this bubble.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: And when you leave that, you realize it's a lot harder to build that community.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: So these online spaces, as unreal as they are, become probably the most real part of it.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: Do you foresee churches uh coming up, kind of naturally, organically coming up that supports these beliefs and allows people to come together with community?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know, I don't know what that looks like.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: Would you start something like that?
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think if the time was right and if there was enough people, you know, within a community, but again, I don't know what that what that would look like.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: Would it look like the traditional church?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: There's a there's a Facebook group that's called Rethinking God with Tacos.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: And Jason Clark is is one of the people that helped lead that.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it is a vibrant community that has been built really wrestling with these ideas.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's it's very live, it's very active, and they have um meetings that they that they get together like twice, two or three times a year to just get together and meet.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if it looks like that, where most of our interaction is is online, or maybe like another guy that I met through that group, we're actually we found out we're in the same city.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we're actually going to meet up for for coffee after the holidays.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's nice.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it just becomes more organic where we just find these like-minded people and then I don't know, just see what happens.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: I have no desire to rebuild a church though.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: That part of your life is done.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I think maybe like podcasting becomes a little bit of that to where, you know, we can just start building a community.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: Share ideas.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, man, it's been awesome having you on here.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: This was fantastic to finally get to meet you in the uh the space that we're in.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: If you would tell us about your podcast and what's going on and what you've got going on.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: So the podcast is again called Slutty Grace.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: Its main focus is deconstruction Christianity, um, universal grace, and a fearless faith.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: So bringing people on to the podcast that can tell their stories of wrestling with God and moving through that.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then also bringing people on who have come to an understanding of grace or might be in the middle of that, or even theologians like Benji who come on and just really wrestle with that idea.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's the main thrust of the podcast.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: How do people contact you?
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: So if you go to sluttygrace.com and it will take you to a safe for work website, trust me.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: If you go to sluttygrace.com, there's some different ways you can listen to the podcast.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: There's some connections there.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: Chris, I'm really excited, and and I guess if I say this, I'm committing myself, but I want to do a series in the spring of next year that's I think the working title is called Unwanted.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it's bringing people onto the podcast who have been traditionally unwanted by the church.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: So LGBTQ, divorcees, neurodivergent people, sex workers, right?
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm looking at all these different categories of people that we can bring onto the show and just say, what's your experience been like?
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's kind of the ideas of where we like to go, just bringing these stories to the surface.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: Well, man, this has been awesome.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for doing it.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I can't wait to uh talk to you in the future and do this again.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you're coming on to Sluddy Grace in a few weeks or so.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: I am.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: I am.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to be there on your show and and I'm going to run my mouth for a little bit and we'll see how that goes.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's awesome.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm looking forward to that.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking forward to hearing a little bit more about your story and and where you're at.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: But appreciate all that you're doing, Chris.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh keep keep the word out there.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, man.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Chris.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for joining me here on Spiritual Hot Sauce.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'd love to hear from you.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: So please reach out with questions, comments, andor concerns.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: And don't forget to like, subscribe, and review us.
• 40:08
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• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: And if you enjoy the flavor of the sauce, then please share it with others.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: I would appreciate that.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: We'll see you next time.