Latest / Wired To Hunt Podcast / Wired To Hunt Podcast #124: Expert Advice On How To Track and Recover Whitetails with John Jeanenney

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Wired To Hunt Podcast #124: Expert Advice On How To Track and Recover Whitetails with John Jeanenney · Wired To Hunt Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, your home for
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast. I'm
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: your host Mark Kenyan. In this this episode number one
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: to in the show, we're joined by John jenn and
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: n and we're diving deep into the topic of blood
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: tracking and recovering a hit white tail. All right, welcome
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: to the Wire to Hunt podcast, brought to you by
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Sick of Gear. And today the show, we are diving
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: very deep into the process of properly blood trailing and
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: tracking a hit year. And surprisingly, this is something we've
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: never really talked about a whole lot on the show
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: to this point, and it's a big, I don't know
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: mistake on my power, I suppose, because this is such
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: an important topic. I mean, we do all this work
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: to put ourselves into a position to get a shot
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: a deer, but then once we do well, you know,
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: the work usually is not nearly over being smart about
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: how we track and trail those deer after the shot.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: It's so important and in a lot of cases it's
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: significant challenge. So today we are bringing on one of
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  Speaker 1: the absolute foremost experts on this topic. John jenne and
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  Speaker 1: John is a author of two books on this topic.
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  Speaker 1: He's a renowned breeder and handler of tracking dogs. He's
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  Speaker 1: been on over one thousand tracking jobs, and he was
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: inducted into the two thousand and twelve No Sorry. In
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: two thousand twelve, he was inducted into the New York
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  Speaker 1: State Outdoorsman Hall of Fame. So, quite simply, we are
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: in for a serious treat today, but before we get
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: to the main event, we've got a little side show
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: for you. As usual, my co cost you know, that's
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: exactly what it is, right next to the bearded woman. Yeah,
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: this is this is the mini circus is gonna happen
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: here for a second, Me and Dan do have a
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: few updates for you. So if you'll bear with us, Dan,
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: what's going on? Let me count how many times I've
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: hunted since the last time we talked. Oh that's right, zero.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: I have been into in the stand zero times since
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: uh the last podcast, since uh actually since last Saturday night.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: So I'm not talking about this past Saturday. I'm talking
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: about two Saturdays ago. So it's been uh not not
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: what I kind of was hoping for. So so now
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: I have some assumptions. But I want to hear it
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: from the horse's mouth. Why haven't you been hunting? Alright,
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: so let's see here. Obviously work, um, obviously kids, right,
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  Speaker 1: But my wife had to do something she she every year. Um,
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: it's different times of the year. She does this thing
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: where she goes to something called a mommy market and
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: she's like sells all the kids use clothes and some
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: of her uh goods that she makes, and um, and
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: you know, tries to hack it. This time. It happened
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: on Saturday, this last Saturday, and uh, and then I
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: had some some family stuff I had to do with
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: my step mom's burial. Uh. And then I had a
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  Speaker 1: wedding on Sunday night. So it was and then you
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: know that brings us to right here because I didn't
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: hunt Sunday. I wasn't able to hunt Sunday night. I
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: wasn't able to hunt last night. And here we are
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: talking about hunting and I haven't hunted. You sound so
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: gloom right now. I'm kind of glum man. I missed. Uh.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: I'm just uh a really a pretty decent cold front
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: come through. Um. You know a lot of those guys
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: are talking about the October lull that's supposedly going on
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: right now. I got a trail camera that is h
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: on that food plot that I planted, and the deer
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: are on it every day now there's even during daylight.
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  Speaker 1: So there's not necessarily any mature buck sightings yet minus one.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: There's been a three year old that's been visiting it.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: But there's been daylight deer movement and that's a positive.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: So what's what's the next hunt on the horizon do
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  Speaker 1: you have? I mean, there's another cold front pushing through
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  Speaker 1: in the next few days. Are you gonna be able
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: to catch that one? Yeah, Friday this weekend, for sure,
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  Speaker 1: I'm gonna be able to hunt. Um. Friday night, we've
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: got a southwest wind. I'm kind of debating on two
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: different stand location. One is going to be a running
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: gun actually it's going to be a running gun on
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: public property. The other one that borders a property that
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: I can hunt, and then the other one is going
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  Speaker 1: to be going down to my main farm and trying
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: to connect with some of the deer that I saw.
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  Speaker 1: I put a trail camera on this fence line by
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  Speaker 1: where the all these deer we're piling out. Um. The
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: previous weekend, so like two weekends ago, on that Friday
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: night where I said I saw that shooter, but he
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  Speaker 1: was down the fence line. Uh, try to connect with
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: that and kind of see what that's what's going on there,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: and you know, just try to get back into the
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: swing of things. Check some trail cameras, you see where
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: the signs kind of popping up, and uh, you know,
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: play it by ear. Hopefully I'll be able to hunt
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: a couple of times throughout next week as well and
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: really start trying to put the pieces of the puzzle
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: together nice. Well, if you had to miss some time
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: to hunt, you know, this past week and a half
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  Speaker 1: was probably not the worst time to do it. As
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: we're you know, it's hopefully it's gonna be ramping up
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: and getting better from here. Um. I did have a
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: few kind of exciting hunts since we last chatted. I
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: saw some I saw some trail camp pictures. Man, looks
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: like Michigan is not the small buck state anymore. Well,
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: it's not the big buck state either, but it's decent
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: um the medium bucks state. Yeah. Um, I can't remember
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: if last time we chatted if I had seen holy
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: Field yet or not, but Tuesday night. I think we
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: record last Tuesday, so that evening after we got done recording,
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: I checked out this little spot where I can see
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  Speaker 1: Holy Field from the road sometimes and lo and behold,
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: right last night, bam there was And so I saw him.
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  Speaker 1: But he was just he There's this little patch of
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: cover that I told you about that he sometimes beds in,
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  Speaker 1: and he just popped out of that piece of cover
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: and it's it's in you know, easy sight from the road.
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  Speaker 1: You can see this cover. It's not that far from
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: the road. But he beds in this little patch up close.
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  Speaker 1: It's kind of weird. And I saw him and this
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: is like right at the end of being able to
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  Speaker 1: see with my binoculars. And he walks out in front
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  Speaker 1: of my food plot. And I've got that screen of
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: cover around it that sorghum in Egyptian wheat, and you
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  Speaker 1: walked on the outside of that, so not in my
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  Speaker 1: food plot, not where I would be able to see
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: him if I was hunting, but on the outside of it,
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  Speaker 1: and paralleled it all the way around to the outside
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  Speaker 1: for maybe fifty sixty yards, and then he actually started
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: bumping a dough um and then he disappeared to get
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: too dark, That's all I saw. Well, fast forward a
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: couple of days, and as we talked about last time,
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: my plan was to stay off this farm, not hunted
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: until later in the year. So I was sticking with that.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: We had a little bit of a cold front hit,
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: like you said last week. So I've got a couple
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: of different properties I'm hunting this year, um that are new.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: So I had to one of those Thursday evening and
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: did a running gun set, and I screwed up. Um.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: I had looked at the maps. I've never hunted here before,
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: but I looked at the maps and I saw, all right,
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: this big block of timber. There's a swamp over here,
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: and there's an intersection of a standing bean field in
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: the standing corn field and this big timber. I thought, okay,
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: there's probably some oaks in there. And then I've got
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: the standing beans and the standing corn. And from what
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: I've been seeing right now, the deer are either hitting
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: the mask you know, acorns, or they're hitting the beans
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  Speaker 1: really hard everywhere I've been seeing them. So I thought
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: to myself, Okay, this could be a great spot where
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: all this stuff comes together. And what was really nice
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: about is since that since I never hunted here, I
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: kind of want to hunt. There's an observation stand somewhere
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  Speaker 1: I could just see a long ways and learn, and
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: I had a west northwest wind, and there was a
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  Speaker 1: house on the edge of this property, and I could
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: hunt where this whole where all this stuff kind of
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: intersects was like really close to this house and yards.
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  Speaker 1: So I was like, I can sneak through this backyard
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: and my wind will blow right into their backyard, you
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: know not, I'm not going to spook any deer probably,
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: And I can get set up right here and at
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: least being a spot that hypothetically looks pretty decent and
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: it's super safe to get into, and I can just
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: watch and learn something tonight. So I sneak in there
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: with my stand. I'm going to do that, and then
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: I just start like second guessing everything. I'm like, wow,
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: I am really close to this house, and man, that
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: corner way down there, closer to the swamp does look
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  Speaker 1: really good, and there's a big oak tree down there,
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: and long story short, I second guess myself out of
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: my initial gut instinct, I said a stand about a
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: hundred yards maybe eight yards farther down the line that
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: I originally planned on, and about twenty minutes before last night,
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  Speaker 1: a big mature eight pointer steps out of that standing corn,
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  Speaker 1: walks right down the edge past where I was gonna hunt,
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  Speaker 1: and steps into the timber, right where I should have
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: been sitting, and I had to watch all this. I
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: do that every year, man, Every year, I will try
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: to talk myself in or out of a different position.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: When you know, you go into the timber after all day,
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: you know, I look at Google Maps and you know
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: probably what you did. Okay, here's my access, here's my
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: wind direction. You get there and you're like, wow, man,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: that over there it looks just as juicy as this place.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: But I think the big buck's gonna step out down there,
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: and exactly what happened happened painful. And then as you
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: as you know, it gets worse. While I'm hunting there
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: that night, not only do I see this big buck
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: step out out of range where I should have been,
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: but then I get a text message from my trail
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: camera on my main Michigan farm, and holy Field is
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: standing in front of my tree stand in broad daylight
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: for twenty minutes. So there's that. So then the next
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: day I said, well, screw it. I've gotten to daylight
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: you know, confirmation of daylight activity from holy Field Tuesday
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: night and Thursday night. So it's like, I gotta hunt
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: there Friday. Like he's a daylight walker, I gotta try.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: And there's only one spot I can hunt with a
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: wind I had, so I snuck in there. I actually
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: had my wife bring the a TV and drive me
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: down this field to get me in here, because I've
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: been trying all these different access routes to get in there,
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: and I still, you know, I'm not seeing him. So
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, maybe even though I'm doing all these
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: crazy things, maybe that's still not good enough. So I
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: was like, well, let's try this. Um, because there's been
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: all such a farm equipment around there in a couple
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: of days beforehand, they've been picking the beans, so I thought, okay,
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: you know, hopefully he'll just think this is another farmhand
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: or whatever. Dropped me off and then she drove off away,
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: and um, that didn't work either. I didn't see him.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: So that was that. And that's all the hunting I've
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: done since I have, Like you said, I got some
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: good trail camera pictures. I had those daylight pictures of
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: holy Field, and then two nights later I had that
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: nine point show up. Um, he's a three year old
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: I think is my best guess. Um, so I kind
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: of don't really want to shoot him. Um, holy Field
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: is really the one I'm after, but that's that. And
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: then I got some great pictures in Ohio. There's some
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: nice big bucks down there. Blades is a buck they've
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: been hunting for three years. He showed back up. Boss
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: is a big eight pointer that's here for the second year.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: And then one of the eight pointers that we saw
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: this summer. He's been showing up. But everything's dark still,
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: everything's at night. So um, that's kind of where things stand.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: I'm waiting until some daylight that Tiffert happens down there where.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: Maybe maybe I'll head down when that cold front hits
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: in about a week or ten days down there. So nice, nice, Well,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: it's getting to that time of year where I mean
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: thing this are going to start slowly start ramping up.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: I got guys telling me you know that. Uh. I
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: shared a post today about you know, the rut this
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: year is supposed to be from the eighth to like
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: that's gonna be the peak rut. Um, according to Charles L. Schemer, right, exactly,
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: exactly the guy who makes the predictions, right. So then
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: the moon theory out. So then we got other guys
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: who have been doing a lot of hunting telling me
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: they feel it's gonna be early because they're seeing a
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: lot of deer, a lot of bucks pushing dose already,
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: not necessarily chasing them, but you know, sniffing bumping them.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: You know exactly what holy Field did to the dough
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: that you saw, And so I don't know he knows.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, what we we we just have a couple
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: of seconds here. But I mean, do you we talked
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: about this last year. We haven't really circled back on
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: a year later. Do you put much credit into that
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: whole moon theory when it comes to the to the rut? No?
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: Not really? This is I mean, I really can't because
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: if I'm going to justify, if I'm going to justify
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: my decision of time off of work based off the
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: moon theory and if a hot you know, let's say
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: that moon, that moon theory holds true, but the weather
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: is really really hot, Like I think, like me and
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: you've talked about we're gonna try to hunt the cold
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: weather as opposed to you know, the best moon phase
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: on hot weather, right, So I just it. I don't know,
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: I can't, I can't follow real in line with it.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: The rut happens. When the rut happens, and you're gonna
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: that time of year, your best bet is just to
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: be in a tree stand as much as you can.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: Very true, Very true. And um, I I agree with
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: you percent. I think weather and like you said, we've
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: talked about us a lot, weather always trumps the moon. There.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: I'm still I'm still a semi believers slash tester of
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: the theory when it comes to some of these other
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: moon theories, you know, whether it be the moon overhead,
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: underfoot or the rising setting moon and how that might
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: you know, kind of enhance some of that movement a
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: little bit. Um, I think there might be something that
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: I'm still you know, we're still intrigued by it. But
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: when it comes to the timing of actual breeding, like
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: it seems pretty darn set in stone, at least in
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: the northern half the country, that's very consistent year in
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: and year out due to photo period. So yeah, I'm
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: just like you. I young hunt every day I possibly
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: can during the rut. But if I were planning my vacation,
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: if I had the flexibility, I try to wait and
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: see what the weather forecast was and try time it
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: with that. And then if not, you know, if you're
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: looking for something that could sway you a little bit,
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: you know, you could look at that moon stuff and
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: research that. But getting I already have the seventh, see
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: the seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, and eleventh scheduled to be
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: off work. Now those other days, those other five days
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: that I'm dead kating to taking time off, could be
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: potentially be before that, so like Thursday Friday or Wednesday,
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: Thursday Friday, um, and then and then take off the
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: Monday and Tuesday of the following the following following week,
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So I'm not getting uh,
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: you know, three weekends in a row, which would be optimal,
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: but I might be catching that peak breeding a little
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: bit more, right, or that peak rud activity. Yeah, yeah, so,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: and I've never really whenever I've taken my my time off,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: it's always been the first, you know, the first two
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: weeks in November. When I think, as I'm starting to
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: get older, man, I don't know, I think maybe that
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: third week is going to be just as good as
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: opposed to the first week. I don't know. I've always
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: been a big believer in that first two weeks to um.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: But also, you know, for some guys, there's a lot
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: of states to have their firearms season open up in
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: mid November, like in Michigan, our season opens November. So
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: basically you need to get it done those first two weeks,
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: um or it's you know, kind of chaos after that.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: So I don't know, man, I'm excited about the ret
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: I'm excited for for you to get out and do
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: some hunting too. I need some good stories. Yeah, I'm
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: I'm ready to spend some time in a tree. I'll
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: tell you that. Yeah, well, how about this. Let's take
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: a break now for a quick word from our sponsors
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: at Sick of Gear, and then we're gonna give John
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: a call and he's going to give you Dan some
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: advice for how to track that big old buck you're
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: and shoot here soon. Well, I'm gonna shoot him right
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: through the heart. So it's really not gonna I don't
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: need to really, it's tips at all, But just kidd
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: I hope that's the case. But in the in the
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: off chance that doesn't work out for you, Dan, We're
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: gonna talk to John all right, Well, what that said.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: We do want to thank our partners at Sick of
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: Gear for their support of this podcast, and today we're
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: bringing you a quick sits story from Wade James, a
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: Sick of White Tail ambassador, professional photographer and videographer and
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: the editor of our two thousand, fifteen and sixteen Wired
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: to Hunt webisodes. And Wade has that an incredible two
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: thousand and sixteen season already, and it was capped off
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: just recently with a successful hunt that occurred under some
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: unusual and memorable circumstances. You just kill an awesome buck
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania, but some people are popularly referring to it
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: now as the pp Tree buck. Why is that? That's
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: a that's a funny story. When we were hanging the
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: set for the stand, I knew the area I wanted
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: to get a stand up in, and I took my
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: four year old daughter with me, And while I was
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: up there climbing and hanging the stand, she was messing
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: around on the bottom few steps of the of the
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: screwing steps that I had, and she ended up slipping
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: off and hitting herself in the crotchrell region and getting scared.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: So I climbed down to make sure she was okay.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: And after we're done hanging the set, I kind of
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: asked her, you know who we name that tree stand
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: that you picked out? And she said we should name
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: it the p P Tree, Dad, So I just laughed
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: about it. And it's kind of stuck, so we can't
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: do with the p P Tree. Now. Fast forward a
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: little bit later into this fall, something good happened there.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Can you tell me about how everything came together? Yeah?
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: I knew that this spot needed, uh the right wind obviously,
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: and I had the first frost of the year coming
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: with the wind that I needed to that stand. So
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: I picked my daughter up that helped me hanging the stand,
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: picked up from preschool and asked her the tree she
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: daddy going tonight and she said the p P Tree.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: So I kind of scurried out to my lease, got
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: up in the stands, and I ended up shooting one
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: of my nicest bucks out of that spot. I heard
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: a grunt across the creek. I hit the grunt tube
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: twice and I heard the dear splash across and hit
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: it two more times to soft grunts, and I had
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: two does, two button bucks and then this book comes
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: fildering up through seven yards right in my shooting lane,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: stopped it, shot it and it ran about fifty yards
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: and dots. So just it's crazy that my four year
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: old picked out the tree that I was gonna kill
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: my bucket this year. You just never know where that
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: great hunting vice might come from. But what I do
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: know is that this was a sick story as Wade
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: was wearing a sick of fanatic hoodie and shack it
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: and the fanatic light bibbs. So if you'd like to
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: learn more about sick of gear for yourself, you can
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: visit Sitka gear dot com. And now back to the show.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: All right with us on the line now is John
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: jen n A. Welcome to the show. John, Well, it's
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: a pleasure to be here. Yeah, we appreciate you taking
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: the time to do this. And I gotta I gotta
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: tell you when I originally had the idea to talk
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: about this topic of tracking and blood trailing and recovering deer,
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: I asked a handful of people that I really respect,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: and everybody pointed me to you as the person that
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: I needed to talk to, so both I and Dan
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: and I think all of our listeners are excited to
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: hear some of your expertise and your experiences when it
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: comes to recovering deer. And I suppose before we get
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: into all that, could you just share with us a
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: little bit of your background how you came to have
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: so much experience when it comes to this type of thing. Well,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: it really starts when I wounded a deer in myself
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: and UH, I was very upset about it. UH plug
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: hit my shotgun slug and I spent a whole day looking.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: There was no blood and UH a week later, some
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: other hunters found the deer in a weil three yards away.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: And at this time I realized that if I had
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: had a good dragon dog, the types that they use
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: in Europe, this wouldn't have happened. And I had learned
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: about tracking dogs in Europe. I was doing some research
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: at the French National Forestry School and I made a
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: number of German UH friends there to their German exchange students,
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: and they introduced me to tracking dogs and UH Germany
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: and wear hair docksins Already. I came home from that
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: research here UH with my first docks. And of course
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: the problem at that time was using a tracking using
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: a dog in any form in deer honey was illegal,
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: and that was not just my state of New York State,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: but pretty much over the uh the whole Northeast and midwest.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Uh the the South was different. We don't have to
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: get into that now. Uh So I applied to our
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: conservation department for a research permit to see if this
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: would work over here. After a lot of talking, I
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: got that permit and began to take calls for hunters
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: who confined their deer. And my luck was I had
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: amazingly good dog and we were very successful. So that's
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: the way it got started. And so the research permit
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: was expanded to other people who were interested in tracking dogs.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: And then finally the whole procedure was legalized in nineteen
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: and it started in So this is a long way off,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: a long way back. But anyway, for the next forty years,
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: I'm one now. I was tracking with some very smart
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: dogs who taught me a lot. Because the dog doesn't
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: a so called blood tracking dog doesn't need blood to track.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: They follow the individual set of the deer. We can
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: go into that later if it's necessary. Uh, and it
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: was possible to see what wounded deer do when they're
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: hit and when they go uh farther. Uh. Then Otter's
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: ordinary ordinarily able to track. And I ended up taking
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: over well actually exactly eleven hundred and eight calls, and
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: my dogs taught me a lot. I really ought to
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: the dog. I ended up, you know, with a pretty
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: good idea of how to evaluate a hit. I wrote
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: a book on that, and uh, how to track them
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: when there's no blood to track with. And I wrote
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: a book on that, tracking dogs for finding wounded deer.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: And I've had a wonderful time with this. Uh. You know,
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: I think it's important for ethical conservation reasons, but tracking
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: with a dog, working in partnership with a dog on
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: a difficult task is an extraordinary experience in itself. You know,
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: it helps you to be a little bit of of
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: a dog yourself. And this has been my passion. Now,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: like you mentioned a second ago, so you've written a
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: book on how to use dogs to help find deer,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: and then also what you've learned from your dogs, you
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: know that you've now applied in another book about just
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: generally how to go on this whole process of a
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: final one dead on. So, so kind of what I
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: wanted to do here was kind of framework conversation around
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: both of those two topics. Maybe start with some of
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: the things that we can do without a dog, and
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: then eventually we can also talk about what you could
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: do if or how to find someone who's a dog,
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: or what to do if you had a dog, or
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: all these different things. So, so maybe can we start
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: from beginning, gen Let's say I'm a hunter and I've
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: just shot a deer. With let's say I'm i'm bow hunting,
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: I've just shot a deer. What are some of the
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: things that we as a hunter should be thinking about
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: immediately at that point as soon as that arrow hits
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: the deer? What are the some of the things that
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: we should be thinking about to help make sure we
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: can get that proper recovery. Okay, first, I think you
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: should try to get is UH good of a memory
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: of the hit site where the arrow entered the deer.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: If that's possible, then you have to decide what your
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: tactics are going to be for finding that deer. The
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: deer may go fifty yards and collapse, and that's the
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: most likely UH scenario. And you know that's great, But
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: if you don't um actually see the deer go down,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: I think it's a good idea to get down fairly
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: quickly and go to the hit site and evaluate it,
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: and depending on what you see, you can decide how
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: to handle the situation. Shan. I think too many of
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  Speaker 1: the writers in the past have tried to deal with
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: wounded deer all in one category. Oh, you always wait,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: you wait eight hours, you do whatever, And I think
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  Speaker 1: that this is oversimplifying the thing. You will you go
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: to the hitsite. Of course, it's great if you can
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: recover your arrow and you smell it. A lot of
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: partners don't do that. But the if you smell that arrow,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: if it's going a little bit far back into the paunch,
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: you're gonna smell kind of a cow barns smell. If
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: it's going back a little bit farther, uh, it's going
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: to be a deer dropping smell. Uh. And if that's
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: the case, you know you've got the gut shot and
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: you don't want to uh get started on this right away.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: I think the ideal point there is to back out,
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: uh and wait if the cayos will let you do it.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: For eight hours and then go in and track, and
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: by that time the deer should be dead or very
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: um much weakened. But on the other hand, uh, suppose
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: you see bone fragments, Almost always those are from the legs.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Now in cases like that, the old saying, oh, always
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: wait is all wrong because in a case like this,
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: the deer is going to bleed out through the broken bones.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: But you've got to push the deer to keep it
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: uh the blood flowing. If you let the deer bed
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: down and relax, uh, the blood will stop coagulate much sooner.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: So you've got to make that evaluation. You look for
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: evidence of a check a shot, that's what you want.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: But my dogs have taught me that a one longer
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: is not always fatal. I've learned by talking to medical
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: people that when along collapses, the flow blood uh to
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: that long cuts way down and they deer or the
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: wounded soldier uh can survive on the other long and
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: then very often that that long actually comes back into
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: function later on. Uh. So here Uh, you know, it's
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: kind of tricky. I think the best situation be wait
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: two hours and then push the deer. You know, we
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: can learn a lot from Army medics when a soldiers wounded,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: they try to keep him quiet and keep the blood
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: flow down. Uh, they don't let him exercise. So you know,
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: you have to make all these distincts, and you make
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: those by evaluating the hit site, and of course, evaluating
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: that type of hair that you've got is a very
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: important part of this. Now, this is complicated. I just
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: don't deal with it in my book because in different
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: parts of the United States the hair color and composition
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: is quite different, depends on the season two. But evaluating
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: the hair is very important. And you do all these things,
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: and then you decide what you're uh tactic is going
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: to be for finding that dear. Something new that's come
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: in since I started tracking in the northeast, Uh, the
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: coyotes invaded. And now if you are you leave an
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: animal out overnight UH where I track, you've got a
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: thirty percent chance of having it devoured by coyotes. So
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: you've got to balance to this uh into your plan
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: of how to attract that deer. It's more complicated than
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: it used to be. Yeah. So so step one, we've
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: we've checked out the site, we've analyzed the arrow, we've
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: smelled it, we've looked to see if there's hair. Maybe
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: we've checked to see the color of the blood and
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: things like that to try to figure out, Okay, where
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: did I hit this deer? If I don't know for sure.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: So you said, if it's a gut shot or a
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: punch shot, wait at least eight hours. What about a
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: liver shot. Well, usually that goes with a punch shot
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: because the the liver lives alongside the stomach. But a
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: liver shot is and variably fatal. The want of liver
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: doesn't seem to clot up, it continues losing. Now you
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: can read books that say that a liver shot deer
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: will never go more than four hundred yards or whatever. Well,
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: I've I've found them going unpushed, uh over a mile
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: and climbing the hill uh to bed down and die.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: But they're going to die, and uh, you know, I
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: think on these cases it's better to wait and let
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: that loss of blood, that using loss of blood become fatal.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: If you push it, the deer is still gonna lie die.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: But if you you push it and it stops bleeding,
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: you're in trouble. Yeah, So so that's one of the situations.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: Then along with gut shots that you recommend not pushing it.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: But it sounds like you usually a gut shot and
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: the liver shot are uh combined because the liberal lies
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: are right alongside the main punch, main stomach. Yeah. But
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: then for a chess shot, so lung's heart, you're saying
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: get right after him, which, like you said, it is
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: a little bit different than what we hear from a
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: lot of people. Is that accurate? Yeah, I think it is.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: I think you have to move when you begin tracking,
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: you a track with great caution. And it's nice to
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: have a hunting buddy. One person eye tracks, the other
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: keeps his eyes out ahead to see if you can
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: get another shot. But a deer is more likely the
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: weekend if he shot in the lungs and if he's pushed. Now,
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: there are always other things that come into this. You know,
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: you've got property lines and so forth. Uh. I don't
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: want to confuse people here. I'm just saying you've gotta
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: think how every individual situation. Uh not just go with
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: the old boys advice wait until morning. What about body shots?
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: Like if I just get a bad like a brisket
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: shot in front of the shoulder or a hit in
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: the back lay. I mean, one of these worst case
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: scenarios where it's a shot that you typically don't think
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: would be fatal. Do you push right after that with
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: the hope of maybe I can keep this dear bleeding? Um,
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: what are you doing? Yeah? With these body shots that
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: there are times when, uh, you can get the deer.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: You know, there's a big femeral artery that goes down
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: along behind the bone on quarter. If you nick that,
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: you're gonna get that deer. But it's hard. It's it's
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: impossible to tell immediately whether you're just in flesh or
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: you're in that major artery. Same thing with the neck shots.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: I don't like them at all. But if you uh
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: nick the juggler vein or the corrodit artery, uh, that
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: deer is gonna die. So you always try. I would
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: never advocate saying, well, there's no point in tracking this
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: deer because there's so many unknowns and uncertainties when you
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: evaluate the hitside. Yeah, how do you know when to
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: do that? I mean, I'll give a couple examples, and
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: one was a couple of years ago. I shot a
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: dough and my immediate reaction was dead. Dear, this this
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: dough is toast tons of good blood um for a
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: hundred yards. And I waited. I waited probably thirty minutes
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: because I felt that, you know, this dough is gonna die,
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: and that one hundred yards right towards the end of it,
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: it started just it it shut off. And then I
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: went maybe fifty sixty more yards and I found just
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: a little drop and then that was it. Um. I
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: had gone two yards. Then I started gritting, um, what what?
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: What's something that I may have done wrong? Or if
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: you were by my side, what would you have told
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: me to do? No? I think this is a pretty
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: good uh uh toxic that you did. Uh you may
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: have had, you probably had. You know, just a flesh
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: wound will lead heavily and then uh claught up. But
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: the next step, you know, when you run out of blood,
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: if you can call a tracker with a trained the
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: leash tracking dog, he's going to be able to take
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: that dear a lot farther. And uh, you know, you
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: may have a pretty good idea of where in the
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: muscle you hit the deer, for instance, on a high
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: neck shot or a high shoulder shot. We never get those,
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: but you know, the the tracker can help utter evaluate
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: the situation if the hunter gives him the detail. But
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: I think what you did was fine. If there had
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: been a tracker available and you figured you had a
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: pretty good hit, you could go farther. But a deer
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: will bleed very heavily from a flesh wound, but seldom
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: enough to kill him. What about that kind of no
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: man's land shot that some people talk about? This area
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: um that's debated, you know, just underneath the spine. Um.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: Some people say that if you hit underneath the spine,
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: there's this area where there's not a lethal head. It
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: gets above the lungs and all that. What have you
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: seen from that type of situation? If you are those
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: deer recoverable or is that not gonna do? You know?
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: They're very tough. Those shots are very tough to evaluate. Uh. Generally,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: if the arrow is UH, it's a deer less than
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: six inches from the top line as you see it,
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: which includes hair, the chances are poor, but they're exceptions. Everything.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: There's a big arteries, a dorsal, a order that runs
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: along right under the spine, and if you clip that,
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: that deer is going to be down in a hundred
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: yards and there's no way that you can tell. And
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: also with those dorsal order shot, there's gonna be very
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: little bleeding on the outside. Blood is just going to
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: cascade into the chess cavity. M it's a tough one,
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: um with calls like that. If the arrow is definitely down,
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: you know, six inches or more, we take the call.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: But we know that the chances of getting the deer
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: are not great. Ah. Generally we found that if you
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: track a deer ah a half mile and he on
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: a chess shot, you know, if it's a chess shot,
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: high chess shot or whatever, if he goes a half mile,
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: he's probably h going to survive because he's got a wound.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: That's that's going to coagulate and uh, you know, caught
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: up the blood old stop. But there's no way of knowing.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: One of the great uses of a tracking dog is
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: to determine whether the deer is mortally wounded or not.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: They make a big thing of this in Europe. They
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: call it a control search. But you know, but there's
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: no way that you can be sure at the hindside
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: of what you've got. And uh, uh, you know, I've
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: talked a lot of these deer, and the hunter is
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: really grateful when I can show him that his the
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: deer is going to be okay. He just doesn't want
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: that deer to rot in the woods, and I sure
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: respect that. Yeah, what were you saying? Well, I was
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: going to kind of go a little bit of a
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: different direction. I mean, after these deer and maybe you
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: can maybe buy all these track jobs that you've been on.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: Whether the hunter has a dog or or doesn't have
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: a dog, do deer tend to do the same thing
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: every time after their wounded? You hear people talk about water.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: You hear people talk about going down down hill, or
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: they'll they'll never jump a fence or or things like that.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: Are there any trends that you've noticed that you can
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: share with us that might lad you ask that question. No,
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: I don't think that there are trends. When the deer
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: is wounded, he goes back. He tried to get back
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: to a place that's safe and secure his uh betting area.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: Now during the rut, a buck maybe put away away
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: from that, but they'll go for that and they'll go
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: uphill or downhill. They go where they want to go. Uh.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: A lot of times I've come in and I said,
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: we've looked everywhere. We can't put him this deer, We've
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: red searched the whole thing. What about that ridge over there, Well, well,
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: wounded deer won't climb a steep slope. Yeah, but the
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: dogs say he did climb it, and there's the deer
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: at the top dead. So you know the deer does
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: what a secure safety place for him? And the only
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: generalization I think that's holds pretty true as if a
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: deer is shot in the uh, intestines are the stomach,
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: gut shot. Uh, they will get thirsty. There all the
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: hydrate after a while, and if there's water available, they'll
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: go to that and they wait out. In a lot
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: of times we find them dead in the water. That's
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: kind of predictable. But other things, no, I'm just amazed
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: that what deer will do. Uh. Those usually won't go
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: as far. They're closer to their bedding area than a
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: buck during the run. But you know, if you get
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: caught up in these generalizations, the deer is going to
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: go always go downhill, And I haven't read this in
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: a lot of books. Uh, yeah, they will go downhill
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: if it's that's where they want to go. But a
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: deer goes where he wants to go until he runs
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: out of gas, runs out of blood, and that could
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: be in various places. Yeah, it's it's interesting to hear
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: that because I think so many of us have been
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: almost trained to just assume some of these generalizations are true. Um,
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: you know, I think it's been ingrained in so manutes
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: over time. But it's interesting. I mean, I think your
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: sample size that you've been able to look at, you know,
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: well over a thousand you know, animals you've tracked, I
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: think it's pretty clear that if you're not seeing that
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: as a consistent trend, well, it's it's gonna be a
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: lot bigger than any of our sample size that we
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: can personally. You got to keep your mind open. Yeah,
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: for sure. I got a questions popped up that kind
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: of goes back to something we talked about a little
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: while ago. Um, when we were talking about determining how
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: long to wait. Um, and I know you said to
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: wait you know, a pretty decent amount of time eight
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: hours or more for a pawn to liver, intestine, etcetera, etcetera.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: But what how does rain factor into that determination? Are
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: you going to change things up if there's rain in
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: the forecast or rain happening right now, that's a good question.
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: Rain will the loot the blood? Uh so that there's
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: nothing that the hunter can see, but the scent is
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: still there. And dogs also they track other scents that
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: come from the deer, particularly the interdigital scent. There's an
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: interdigital gland between the clothes of the hoof kind of
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: high on that uh slot there, and that as an
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: individual scent, and a dog when he's trained, will follow
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: that very well. So rain doesn't bother an experienced tracker
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: at all. And let's you know, if it's a three
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: or four inches, okay, that's one thing, but you know
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: there's the normal thing, a half inch, one inch, No,
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: the the dog can track just the same. Matter of fact,
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: that's better then dry windy conditions you know, early in
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: both season. Uh it allows dry leaves blowing around on
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: the ground and the humidity is low. That's a lot
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: tougher than the situation after most rainfalls. So what though,
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: what if you don't have access to a dog, would
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: you say that you? I mean, this is this is
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: the thing I always deal with myself as do I
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: do a head right in because I want to try
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: to take advantage of whatever small amount of blood is available. UM,
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: or do you wait a longer period of time because
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: your hope is that, you know, I'm not going to
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: have a blood trail of any sort, but hopefully he
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: dies or she dies close enough that when I do
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: kind of a body search, I'll be able to find it.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: UM sounds like a dog is the best case or
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: the best option. But what if I can't get ahold
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: of a dog? What would you do? Then? Well? Then, uh,
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: you know, when you get to the point beyond fairly
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: easy tracking, quit and weight, because what you don't want
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: to do in a situation like this is, uh, jump
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: the deer out of his bed. You know, when he's
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: still alive and he takes off without blood, that deer
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: is gone. Now, if you've got a track in all
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: that's not a problem because you're gonna follow that deer
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: out of his bed. But generally, uh, you know, wait,
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: I'm not against grid searchers within uh in reason. Usually
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: uh this this dis represent but not to an extreme degree.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: And then you've got a chance of finding a deer
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: like that. You know, it depends. If you're hunting in
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: brushy fields, you gotta work pretty closely and make a
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: pretty close grilled grid. If you're out in open hardwood,
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: you know, rove around and look in the general area,
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: you can spot a deer down, spot a white belly,
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: you know, a hundred yards away. But I you know,
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: I think in cases that don't involve broken legs, you're
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: better of waiting once you're sure that the deer hasn't
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: gone down you know in the area that there was
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: easy tracking. With leg hits, the blood uh comes out
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: through the marrow bone, and if you keep pressure on
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: the deer, he will bleed so that you can eye
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: track him and find him. I've tracked deer like this
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: four miles. No, that's unusual. But you can usually spot
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: a leg hit deer by bone fragments and also by
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: you know, smears on logs and so forth, with the
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: deer's drag just leg across the across the log. Yeah. Interesting.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: So you mentioned this question of or you mentioned grid searching,
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: and Dan mentioned it too, And this is another one
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: of the things I've thought about, because I've got a
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: friend who has a tracking dog that I've you know,
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: thought about, and I usually will take her along on
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: track jobs. You know, even when I know it's going
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: to be an easy job, just because we want to
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: give her experience. But I think one of the questions is,
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: you know, lots of times if someone knows that they
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: can get a hold of tracking dog or something, there's
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: this question of when do I stop trying to find
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: it myself and get ahold of this person with a dog, Like,
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: at what point am I screwing things up more than
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: I'm helping them, um by trying to find it myself?
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: Because I know, for me at least, I mean, I
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: think a lot of us in the situation, we just
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: want to find our dear now and we just wanted
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: to happen. And so there's this like this allure of well,
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: let me just try a little further, let me just
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: look over this hill, or let me just circle this area. Um.
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: But some guys say, well you do that, you're screwing
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: up your chances of the dog being able to actually
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: find it in the future. So what do you say
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: to that, John, when do you when is it better
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: for me just to stop and pull out and get
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: ahold of that dog? Well, I would say, if you're
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: blood tracking by and uh, the deer has not laid down,
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: there's no evidence that the deer is uh, you know
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: about ready to drop back back out when eye tracking
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: uh becomes difficult or impossible. Ah. Now that's that's not
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: the European theory. But you know, in America you try
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: to do things yourself if you can. You know, it
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: depends so much on the circumstances. If you're in an
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: area where you think you could do a fairly effective
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: grid search over maybe U two hundreds a yard area,
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: you might good search that. But we do find as
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: trackers that when we go into an area that's been
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: good search where uh, you know, the deer center has
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: been trying backed up by the hunter, it makes things
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: more difficult. Usually I find I can uh amounts the difficulties,
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: but that's not the ideal. But as long as you
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: can eye track, uh, there's no deed for a dog.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: You know, This whole business of calling the least tracking
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: dog a boot tracking dog to a mistake I used
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: to term myself. But they're useful. They've become useful when
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: there's no blood to track. How does that process usually work?
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: Are there? I mean? I know that tracking dogs and
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: their handlers are kind of becoming much more popular across
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: the country. Is more and more states to legalize it.
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: But I understand there's some different like tracking associations and
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: groups like that across the country that helps set up
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: hunters with a dog. Is that something? Is that true?
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: Is there some different people or organizations we can get
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: in touch with the find the right people to help. Yeah,
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: we you know we I'm a founder of two organizations.
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: H dear Search Incorporated New York States and then United
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: Blood Trackers. You know, we have co founders. Uh we Uh.
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: We don't provide people with dogs, but we give them
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: assistance in training and uh we also publicize the services
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: that they make available. For instance, and United Blood Trackers.
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: You can go to their website and click on find
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: a tracker, and then you'll see the the states search
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: five states in which tracking is uh legal. You click
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: on the state and you can get a listing of
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: the trackers in that state, uh and where they're located,
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: you know, in terms of a town. So that's uh,
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: you know, they play in the important role that way.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: Dear Search in New York State actually does uh dispatching too.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: When the hunter calls in said I got I got
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: a deer I can't find I try and everything. Uh,
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: they'll put him in touch with a tracking dog in
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: the area where he was hunting. So they play that role,
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: but you know, they they don't get involved in providing
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: the dogs. And you buy your your dogs kind of
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: on the open market. And then also these organizations have
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: promote the idea of tracking in states where it still
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: sounds like a crazy idea. You know, they tell interested
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: uh leaders, well, this is what our experience has been
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: in New York State or Vermont, and uh, you know,
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: we we give them, some of the correspondents the text
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: of the bills that have been passed so that they
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: have an idea where they're going. Speaking of bills and
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: laws related to this, what kind of laws are typically
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: around the use of tracking dogs? I think, I mean,
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: it's not like it's not free for all. Right, you
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: can't just go out there with the dog and and
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: go chase after these deer. Right. There are some limitations
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: and restrictions in in most states, Oh yeah, in all
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: but the Deep South and uh in Texas. Uh. Number one,
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: the dog has to be kept on a leash from
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: thirty to fifty Ah. In some states you can carry
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: a firearm, Uh, to put down the deer if it's
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: still alive. In other states, Uh, that's not permitted. Most
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: states allow tracking day or night, but some restricted to
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: the daytime. It's a very complicated thing. You know, there's
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: there's a set of theirs, five different regulations. But you know,
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: I think the important thing to realize is that, uh,
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: in the northeast and the mid that west, extending pretty
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: far south, the use of dogs in deer hunting was
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: a law outlawed for good reasons. It was uh, you know,
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: it was almost exterminating deer. And now the use of
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: tracking dogs is presented by the legislation as an exception.
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: And the important, most important thing here is the dog's
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: kept it all times on a tracking leash. Okay, now
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: what about if you know, I thought about this too,
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: What if you wanted to try to get your own
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: tracking dog. Is there any specific type of dog that's
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: best or specific things you should look for in a
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: dog if you were trying to get your own train
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: your own. Oh boy, that is a question. Uh. There
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: are specialized breeds that are used for tracking, and you
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: can buy them in Europe or from certain breeders in
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: the United States. For instance, they're the the Bavarian Mountain
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: blood ound from Germany, the Anivarian blood ound. What has
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: become very popular as a breed that I started with
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: the European wire haired doctrine, which is quite different from
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: the American doctrine. They're registered by a k C. But
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: they're highering, the legs, shorter in the back, I have
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: a wiry coat, and they you know, they're much more agile,
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: they are much more endurance. The right kind of lab
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: is very good, not the pet lab of the show lab.
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: Or they are kind of hyper lab that's used in competition, uh,
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: you know, retrieving competitions. But I see in some marvelous labs.
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: And then a breed from Texas is becoming more and
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: more popular now is the Blue Lacey. So there is
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: quite a number. But uh, and you can't always go
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: by breed labels. I mean they're duds, uh in all
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: these breed categories. And there are some very good dogs
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: that don't come out of one of these breeds. But
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: usually your your odds of getting a dog a talented
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: dogs are better if you stick with a breed that's
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: got the right temperament. Uh. And there the right habits
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: for using its nose, and a lot of it goes
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: into training to there there is a an opportunity to
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: buy good prospects. In the United States. The demand now
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: is very strong. The demand for tracking dogs is expanding
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: faster than the supply. But I think this is going
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: to settle out. Uh. The wire docks And that breathe is.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: He's handy because he's a small dog that you can
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: easily the transport. He is a good small companion in
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: the house, and he can be very very uh talented,
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: But he's certainly not the only breed that can do this.
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: I would say wire docks And does not have a
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: bloodhound caliber nose. By the way, there are some American
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: bloodhounds working too with a that's a lot of dog.
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: But you know, usually even uh a dock so And
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: is going to be able to attract wounded deer with
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: no visible blood anyway for up to twenty four hours
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: and uh in most of our hunting in the Northeast
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: and the Midwest, this is long enough. Now you get
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: trophy hunters that, oh they want that I rack. I
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: shot the deer last week, but I don't care about
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: the meat. I just want a Uh, gorgeous set of
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: anilers there you want? You want American blood ount or
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: the Bavarian Mountain blood own or the Hannivarian blood. There's
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: no one perfect breed. I think you've got to find
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: what what suits you you best. So what about you know,
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: the old ada as? You can't teach an old dog
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: new tricks? Is that true? Is this the kind of
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: situation where you need to get a puppy to train
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: him or her to do this kind of thing? Or
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: can I take my Maybe I've had a lab my
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: whole life and he's six or seven years old and
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: I want to train him to do this now? Is
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: that possible? Sure? I think it depends on whether the
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: lab has been h hated, has learned to use his
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: nose and you know, to relate to his handler. I've
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: had the best dog I ever had. I was clary
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: and she didn't start until she was four. Uh. But
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't a hundred other things with their
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: rack whose uh pheasants and and so forth. But to
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: just take a dog it's been a house dog and
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: asked them at five or six to to track, to
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: learn to stay on the right line, all that. Uh,
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: that's reaching out pretty far. I think when you get
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: into eight or nine years old, by the time the
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: dog has learned from practical experience UH as well as
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: training what to do, the dog is gonna begin to
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: uh fail because of age. So you know, I think
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: the ideal thing for most people is to uh to
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: get a good puppy from a breeder who is into
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: blood tracking, and that's good blood tracking dog. But you
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: can develop other dogs to do this with appointing breeds.
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: Some of them are marvelous. I've seen marvelous German at
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: wire dockstions and German wire reporters. Excuse me the German
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: version of this, which is the draft hor but so
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: many of them they since they've been bad primarily for
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: bird hunting. They'll be high headed and birdie great for
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: wind setting, but they will get the nose down to
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: work all cold lines. Some do, and I've seen this
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: dogs that were great bird uh finders wind setting fifty
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: six yards and could work a cold line at the
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: same time, But that's not always the case. M What
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: what do you think about all this, Dan, as far
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: as the dogs are concerned, I my question is is
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: going back to the actual tracking itself And I hate
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: to go off topic here, but you mentioned some and
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: about bumping a deer. You know you don't, it's sometimes
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: it's it's gonna be hard, you really don't. You can't
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: tell if a deer is dead or not unless you're
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: looking at it. So, um, if if somebody does dump
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: a bump a deer is there, I mean, is it
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: a lost cause that that deer has gone forever or
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: is there still a chance that you can recover it
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: from where you bumped it. Yeah. Usually if you get
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: really really close to the bedded wounded deer before he
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: jumps up and takes off, uh, he is not going
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: to go very far before he beds again. And uh,
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: you know, uh, you may be able to get it.
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: I found usually if you get close to a deer,
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: you jump him once he goes out two hundred yards
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: your beds again. Uh, and then uh, the second time
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: you jump him, he goes a hundred yard and then
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: he's finished. That's a scenario. And you know, it depends
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: on the the cover that you're working in, how much
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: blood the deer leaves going out of the blood and bed,
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: and how far ahead you can see him go. But
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: when I a deer takes off. Really, when he's not
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: even in sight and you just find his bed with
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: a little bit of blood in it, that's not a
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: very good opportunity to catch up to that deer without
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: a dragon dog. So in that case, when you do
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: bump that deer and going back to the wait or
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: don't wait, um, regardless of how long you wait in
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: the front end, now you've bumped a deer. I think
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: most of us usually when we bump a deer, we think, oh, shoot,
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: we just bumped that deer. We better wait and then
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: we go home, or we go back to the truck
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: and wait a couple of hours and then try again.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: I feel like that's the most common response. But in
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: that situation you bump the deer, are you are you
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: going to keep pushing it usually? Or how do you
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: how do you think about that circumstance. Well, you know,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: by the time you've gotten to the point where you've
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: bumped the deer, you probably know how it's wounded, and uh,
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: if it's wounded in the the guts, or it's given
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: evidence of being a very weak, follow it up. Otherwise
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: back off. You've always got to think of this problem
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: of the coyotes. You know, it's it's never simple. You know,
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: it would be nice if you could write a little
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: manual for hounters and five pages of how to find
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: a wounded deer, But damn, and I've learned that my
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: dogs are taught me that it's a lot more complicated
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: than that. Yeah, I wish it was that easy, that
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: it could be. Summing up, that's what I try to
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: deal with in my book dead On that's written for
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: hunters who don't have access to a dog. What they
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: can they do to handle and track a deer hit
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: in different places? So, is is there anything we haven't
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: touched on on that specific topic that if I don't
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: have a dog. Is there any other big lessons that
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: you've learned that we haven't covered? Well, you know, we
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: just talked about both money. Is that you're a great
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: point the focus or do you want to expand it
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: the gun on it? No, we definitely do want to
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: talk about the firearms side too. How does that change things? Okay, Well,
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: I think there's one important thing that we haven't mentioned,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: and I see this is an honor mistake that's made
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: time and time again when we get coals on it
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: on a high back shot with a shotgun slug or
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: a rifle bullet. If the deer goes down immediately and
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: stays down, well you're gonna get that deer. But quite
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: often that bullet has it's hit one of the prongest,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: finest processes coming up off the vertebrae, or there's been
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: a shock to the final chord within the backbone. The
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: deer goes down, and if it gets up again and
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: takes off, it's gone. We can't catch up with him
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: on track and off. And so many times hunters they're
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: so sure that that deer went was fatally wounded because
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: it went down instantly. Well, if it stays down, that's
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: the case. But if it gets up again, it's gone.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: And you know, I had hunters say, well I hit
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: him good out of two yards and he went right down.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: I knew I had him, so I went up to
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: the the house to get my a TV and have
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: a cup of coffee. And then when I went down there,
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: he wasn't there anymore. Come find him. And uh, you know,
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: I've learned not to take those calls because it's just
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: it doesn't work. If the deer shows any signs of
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: getting ready to get up again, you put another shot
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: in him. I think that's the most common error I
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: see gun unters make. All right, now, before we move
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: on to my next question for John, we need to
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: pause briefly for word from the sponsors of this episode
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: of the podcast Carbon express Arrows. And when it comes
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: to hunting arrows, I think one of the greatest challenges
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: that the average bow hunter has is trying to wade
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: through all the different options available and figure out exactly
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: what kind of arrow and set up is best for
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: his or her hunting application. So with us today is
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: Carbon Expresses Alex Tate to help us understand exactly how
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: to pick the right arrow for your situation. So, so
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: the two main groups of hunters, and if you don't
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: agree with this, and let me know, but in our
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: heads here, UM, it's gonna be white tail specifically, you
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: know that's number one and anywhere UM. And then two
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: is going to be out west elk hunting or out
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: west um you'll deer hunting. And that's all kind of
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: the same little bit bigger size animals, UM, a little
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: bit longer yardage, is a lot less woods. So the
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: differences between those two and in the difference between your
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: arrow selection UM. For a white tail hunt, I would
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: always recommend um a heavy arrow specifically because in most
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: white tail situations and habitats you're gonna get a thirty
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: yard shot or less, so so speed really does not matter. UM.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: On top of that, today's bows are so efficient that
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: that you really want weight these days in in my
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: opinion and in a lot of people's opinions, especially at
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: this company, So that would be where I pushed people
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: for white tails. So like our reds our um Our
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: Mayhem stuff like that, that's very very heavy pile drivers
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: for the people who aren't ever going to see over
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: a thirty yard shot. A pile driver is just a
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: phenomenal row because it's extremely heavy and you don't need
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: anything else. You're shooting thirty yards max and you're wanting
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: to punch through that animal as fast and efficiently as possible.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: But when you go out west, um you're dealing with
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: seventy yard jats. You're dealing with no trees, and with
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: no trees, UM comes a lot of wind, so you
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: have to start um factoring in that as well, and
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: with that becomes you're gonna be looking for like a
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: smaller diameter, so like our pile driver pass through extreme um.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: It's a great option. Two oh three inner diameter, extremely heavy,
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: so it helps cut through that wind. A light arrow
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: that is small diameter will only do so much for
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: you because it's still light, it's going to drift um.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: So those would be my two main differences between those.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: And then also going out west on those longer shots,
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: the more foc you can get, the better, So a
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: wait forward arrow or a M triple spined arrow with
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: or grains up front can really pay David when you
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: start getting past forty fifty yards. So there you go,
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: And if you'd like to learn more about any of
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: the arrows that Alex mentioned, you can visit carbon Express
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: Arrows dot com. And now back to the show. Are
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: there any other differences from the other tracking kind of
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: best practices we talked about or the times to wait
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: you know that we talked about when it came to
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: bow hunting. Is there any other differences when it comes
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: to using a firearm? Do you wait less or longer
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: after gunshot? At all? I don't think there are any
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: clearer differences. You know, the wound that's made is different.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: A h an arrow cut in a specific area if
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: it's a vein or whatever. You know the results are
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: going to occur right away. With a rifle bullet, you
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: have shock around the passage of the board, you have
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: tissue damage around the passage of the bullet. Uh, and
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: uh you're dealing with a damage zone that's actually broader.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: Uh then uh when you shoot with broadhead. Another thing
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: I'll throw in here you may want to edit this
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: out is we get a lot of calls from people
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: that are using mechanical broadheads. And I know, when the
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: mechanical broadheaded works, uh, it's awesome, but there are so
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: many cases where they give inadequate penetration. Maybe they hit
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: a rib. I think in a lot of times hunters
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: will be shooting with a mechanical I won't mention brand names,
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: but they're attempted to use a light arrow and a
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: light uh pondage bowl. And you know they get when
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: they're shooting tigrets, they get beautiful flat trajectories, but they
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: don't have enough energy in that arrow when it strikes
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: a deer to get all the way through. Sometimes you
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: don't get any exit wound, but you've still got a
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: killing wound. But a lot of times. You know, it's
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: four interance penetration almost anybody that tracts a lot because
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: I would never use a mechanical. But you know, the
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: general hunting public doesn't see it the same way. You know,
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: we just see all the cases where the mechanical doesn't work.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: That's good. When you say doesn't work, I'm a kind
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: of a gear nut. What what do you mean by
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: doesn't work? You mean it's not opening like it's supposed
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: to open, or the broadhead itself is damaged and it's
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: not living up to its potential. It loses uh, its energy,
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: it's kinetic energy. Uh. You know there's more resistance when
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: those blades open, particularly if they hit a river or
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: something like that, and uh, so you don't get the penetration.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: Then when the arrow stops, ah, the blades float. They
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: don't keep on cutting as they would in a standard broadhead,
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: where you know, with a muscle movement of the animal
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: that would continue continue cutting back and forth. So I
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: think this is an inadequate penetration. I don't see too
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: many cases where they don't open. But I think if
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: you're going to use a mechanical, you want to use
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: a high poundage bow uh, and heavier arrows, you know,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: not what you would use in a tournament. That that
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: brings up another thing too. I think the three D
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: tournaments show the lethal kill zone the deer target in
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: a much too optimistic way. Uh you know it. Uh.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: You make it look like if you hit the deer
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: four inches below the top line, that's going to kill
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: him good. And the real kill zone for a deer,
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: you know, heart and lungs is going to be lower
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: than anything you see with the current three D tournament targets.
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: I think that, you know, I'm all for cultivating, uh,
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: the art of shooting accurately, but I think in this respect,
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: the competition leads to an unrealistic viewpoint of what the
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: kill zone is in a real live deer. That's good
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: to know. So it sounds like it's better to air
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: a little bit low than a little bit high typically also,
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: I think so, and this is especially true with black bear.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: Now this year in the Northeast, we've got a heavy
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: black bear kill and most of the time, well the hunters,
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: you know, they'll show in the middle of the chest
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: and they're a little bit high and they're just going
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: through a muscle. They're not getting into the very low
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: hard lung area of black Bear. Interesting. I don't know, Dan,
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: do you have any other questions on this topic? No,
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: not really. I think he's provided us with a lot
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: of information to theay, Yeah, this is this has been interesting,
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: especially some of the insights. You know, they go counter
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: to some of the generally held knowledge that's kind of
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: anecdotally been passed down for decades. Um, that's that's particularly interesting.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: I think you know, Baked take go home, take home
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: message for me is to not be afraid to go
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: after these deer that we know for sure have been hit. Well,
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: I think that makes sense to go after them, but
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: then also to to kind of not be afraid to
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: hold off when it's a little bit questionable in the
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: right situations. Um, do you have any final thoughts that
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: you want to leave or any other big mistakes? John
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: that you think that most people are making the situation
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: that we still need to cover, well, I think that
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: a lot of hunters still have no adjust to this
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: new age of the cat out and uh, what was
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: good advice for Grandpa is not good advice anymore. So
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: that's one thing I think for the whole wounded dear
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: question you can make just a big generalization about the
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: whole thing. You've got to break it down into the
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: various situations depending on the anatomy is a dear and
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: it pays to look at the diagram of deer anatomy
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: so that you can recognize situations when they arrive. Yeah, definitely,
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: So I guess I get speaking of that, then what
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: resources would you recommend to better understand this type of scenario?
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: And I'd love to hear about your books or any
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 1: other places people can go online to learn more about
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: your resources or anything else you recommend. Well, Uh, I
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: think my book for hunters that aren't working with dogs,
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: dead On, is probably the most up to date because
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: the other UH writers have not had this experience of
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: working with dogs that tell us what dear actually do.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: So that book dead On, which we sell off our
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: website under track dot com, UH, is I think useful.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of detail. It's a shorter book, you know,
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: it's I think it's ninety pages. But I want to
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: see this knowledge that the dogs have given us more widespread,
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: and I'm sure other people are going to pick it
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: up and develop it, but right now, I don't think
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: that's there, there's enough that's been published or videos who
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: have been published. There's a lot to be done here
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: and it will be other people who do it. I'm
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: actually now I'm eighty one for my tracking day Days
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: in the Woods ended when I was eighty, But I
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: want other people to pick this up and write more.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 1: And what you're doing on this program here of publicizing uh,
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: this new knowledge, I think is tremendously valuable. Well, hey,
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: we we appreciate you sharing that expertise and experience. John,
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: And that website believe said was born to track dot com.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: Is that correct? Yeah, with their hyphens between born and
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: born hyphen t o hyphen t r a c k
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: dot com and you see that. You can see reviews
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: about it. The The Tracking Dog Book has sold actually
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: more than dead On. But I think that dead On
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: has a lot of potential for people who don't want
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 1: to get involved in tracking dogs. And that's not for everybody.
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: Tracking dogs are good for the person who got the
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: right time and temperament for doing it, but it's not
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: that's not going to appeal to everybody. Yeah, and there's
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: no point in having a tracking dog if he's not
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: well trained and the experience you just can't take your
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: TV watching pooch off the couch, and I think you're
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: going to do very much with him. Yeah, I wish,
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: I wish it was that easy. Well, John will make
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: sure to link to that website, so if anybody is
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: interested in write, reading either one of those books, are
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: checking out anything else about what John has been doing,
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: will make sure to have a link. Maya, my number
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: is in there. And I liked to talk to people
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: about questions I may have or give them more advice.
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: I spend my my other life as a teacher, so
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 1: that's communicating information is something I really like to do. Well.
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: I definitely think you've done that today. John, You've helped
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: a lot of people out us included, So thank you
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: so much for your time. We really appreciate it. Okay, well,
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: I certainly enjoyed it too. Thank you for the opportunity,
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: of course, and there you have it. A few quick
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: updates before we go, though, as always, a big thank
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: you to our partners who helped make this podcast possible.
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: So thanks to Sick of Gear, Redneck Blinds, Hunt Ra Maps,
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: Yettie Cooler's Osonics, Carbon Express, Maven Optics, and the White
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: Tail Institute of North America. And thank you to all
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: of you who have gone out and supported these companies
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: or thank them for their work with Weird Hunt. You know,
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: I'm getting more and more messages about this kind of
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: thing happening, and it's really an unbelievable help for this
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: podcast and for the Wird Hunt website. You know, when
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: our partners here about the impact that this show and
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: Weird Hunt is having, it's a huge eye opener for them,
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: and that kind of thing is what it's going to
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: take to keep this show going. So just just huge
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: thanks for that. Also, thank you, of course for tuning
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: in today for hearing us out talking about our own hunts,
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: and for joining us to hear what John had to
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: share as well. I hope you learned a thing or
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: two that's going to help you on your next track job,
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: and of course I hope you also get an opportunity
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: to enjoy a track job soon. So until next time,
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: I hope you'll stay Wired to Hunt.