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Answering Your Law & Gospel Questions | Jon Moffitt with Theocast · The Remnant Radio's Podcast

• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: Hey everybody, welcome to the Wonderful World of Remnant Radio.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: In this program, we're responding to the many comments that came in on our John Bevere video where we discussed him misunderstanding the gospel.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I brought in Mr.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: Long Gospel himself from Theocast, John Moffitt, to join us in that discussion.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's going to be a fun episode.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: You guys stay tuned.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: Look, we were not out for blood with uh our, you know, uh I assume brother in Christ.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not trying to disperge uh cast dispersions on him.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: I definitely think that he was confused about some gospel issues, John Bever.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we initially read his book because of the kind of hyper-controlling language of honor culture stuff that came from the book Undercover.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: We had heard about that.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: We thought, hey, we should go give that a quick read.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: Read it, thought, ooh, there's some weird stuff in here.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: But as I did it, what I saw over and over that actually grieved me more than the kind of high control environment was the fact that the law in the gospel was confused over and over again.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: So uh we did an entirely different episode on just that, and it seemed to have some viral aspects to it.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: It blew up on our channel in a way that a lot of our content doesn't.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's not the most viewed thing we've done, but it definitely struck a nerve.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what ended up happening is there's a lot of people who had not seen our content, but were really impacted by John Vivere, and they saw a thumbnail that says he gets the gospel wrong and they jumped on.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well, they don't have our theological framework, they don't have our reasoning, they don't understand what we're trying to argue.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: So there was a flood of comments that came in.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: Our argumentation was essentially law gospel.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: Law says do, gospel says done.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, when we have faith in Christ, all of the law has been fulfilled in Christ.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: His perfect record is given to us, and then there's nothing required from us from that point on.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: We can rest in his finished work.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: We don't have to strive to do in order to maintain our salvation, but we get to live a life of holiness unto Christ as an act of worship, uh, placing the focus not on what I have to do to sustain or to earn, but to actually trust in Christ's work completely because his work was enough.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: There was nothing lacking in his work, nothing I have to add to it.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and uh I'll tell you, one of the places that that that message really came alive to me was from listening to a podcast called Theocast.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I've got John Moffitt with me today.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, John, uh, would you tell people a little bit about yourself and your ministry uh and what we expect to kind of chat about today?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the pastor of a little church here in just south of Nashville called Grace Reform Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: Been here for going on eight years, started Theocast about 10 years ago.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: I come from a Pietistic, fundamentalistic kind of Baptist background.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: And as I started to read scripture and realized uh going through my first ministry, which I was very young in Utah, that I was confusing the law and the gospel all the time.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it felt like even my good news sermons about the gospel sounded uh detrimental and angry.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that just sounded strange when Jesus was saying things like, Come to me and I will give you rest.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: My sermons didn't sound restful.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that just led me to where I am today in um confessionally reformed and uh, you know, you said the the law gospel.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: If I guess I if I could be described as somebody as uh a the law gospel guy, I guess that's not a bad, that's not a bad description.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: But you if you boil down what is most important in scripture, uh it is, am I right with God?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then what does God think of me?
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Those are really important in the law and the gospel is what teaches us to know those truths, and if you combine them, it becomes a problem.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: So Theocast is a ministry that I do uh on top of what I as a pastor, and the the goal of Theocast is to pull the clutter off of the gospel so it's seen clearly, and then how do we relate to the law after that?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that's uh really what we've been doing for the last 10 years from a reform perspective.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a quick overview.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: Now you say uh reform perspective and confessionally reformed.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna run through that real quick.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: You're a 1689 guy, right?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: London Baptist Confession.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: So he holds to this group of doctrines uh that others in the Baptist circle kind of affirm.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: And and John is gonna be of the Calvinistic persuasion.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: Something that was really interesting to me was that we did this podcast, Miller and I, who are both not Calvinist, and we were like, hey, uh your works don't matter.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Christ's work is everything.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: And people are like, y'all are just saying that because y'all are Calvinist.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: And we're like, well, well, one, we're not Calvinist.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then two, I don't you keep using that word.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think that word means what you think it means.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like uh Calvinism is not trust in Jesus, and that's enough.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that's called the gospel.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I have no clue what we're doing here.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I I would lean more on kind of a Lutheran perspective, which Lutheran kind of theology is going to hold to hey, grace being resistible.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: So uh Calvinism in short, total depravity, I'm gonna get the order wrong, irresistible grace, limited atonement, um, unconditional election, perseverance of the saints.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: So that's Calvinism in a nutshell.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: People who are familiar with that can, you know, go Google tulip and figure some of that out.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: But but of that uh lineup, the the the Lutheran goes, Hey, I I think a person who has faith in Christ can reject that faith.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: The Calvinist just says, that person never really saved.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: We go, hey, look, there was some kind of work in their heart, they rejected it.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh irresistible grace.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: God can pursue me with his grace, but I can harden my heart to it.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: The the Lutherans are can be with Philip Melanchthon a little bit more syncretistic when it comes to partnering with God's grace.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um however, I would lean more on the on the Luther side than Melanchthon.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's fine.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, so so you can you can you can pick at all this and go, hey, um theologically, for people who are out there, this is not a Calvinism, Arminianism, Lutheranism sort of thing.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's a gospel thing.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe John, you can speak to that uh on the other side of the theological line.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I'm not even a fan of the five points.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um they're not Calvin himself didn't come up with those.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Those are and even the names of them and how we use the tulip is an even more of a modern definition.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so when people kind of mock at them, I do too, because some of the way they're described is kind of like that is kind of distasteful.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't know if I would agree to that.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: I would say this is a debate about the sovereignty of God in power and where the power is placed in God's plan of redemption.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I have I, you know, for when people say I'm not a Calvinist, I I've never met somebody who's not a sovereigntist.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like you, you believe that the sovereignty of God is absolutely necessary in order for somebody to be saved, right?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like you pray this way, Lord, save this person.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you that means you want God involved in that at the end of the day, when God saves someone, who can boast?
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like you and I both agree that it's purely the work of God.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: And how you want to systematize it, you know, that's that's a whole nother converse conversation.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: But the conversation we're having is what does it mean that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: What does that mean?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then how much involved is someone when it comes to that point of salvation?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: And if someone is slightly involved, do they have a reason to boast?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: So that that's more about what this conversation is related to.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then what is actually the gospel?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because if the gospel is God's power and yet everything is related to man, I'll give you an example.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: If I have to clean my life up a little bit before God's going to have this conversation with me about saving me, then there's a there's a dualistic nature happening to this conversation.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: The gospel of the good news is you clean up a little bit and then I'll come rescue you, right?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's technically not at all.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: He says you were dead in your trespasses and sins.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: He made you alive.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the sovereign nature of it.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Now, how it all works out with the human cooperation, as far as like we actually do the believing, we actually do the repenting, is a different conversation.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: But what we have to nail down is what is the gospel and how does it work?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm with you, this is not necessarily a uh traditional conversation as far as like, are we talking Lutheran, Arminian, and Calvinists?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I I would say that all three of those camps, when we boil down what is the gospel in their traditional sense, get it correctly, at least they should.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: And historically they have.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: And this is why I can partner with a lot of people who are not in my camp because they get the gospel right.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: But if you start to put obligations back into the gospel, it's no longer good news.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: This is what we call a transaction.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: I do my part, God does his part, and then there's a solution or there's a resolution in the end.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just fundamentally not the gospel.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think what people were doing was they were going to these passages where, okay, here's lust of the flesh that's really present in Galatians, and they were going, hey, if you do the lust of the flesh, you know, you're not going to inherit the kingdom of God.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: And they're like, You disagree with this because you're a Calvinist.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: And what they're what they think I'm saying is because I believe in perseverance, no one will ever give in to the indulgence of the flesh.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: So no one can apostasize.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm saying, look, if you believe in apostasy, which I would say uh I do, a Lutheran does, an Arminian does, that apostasy is not rooted in disobedience, it is rooted in faith, right?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: I placed faith in Christ and and then I reject that faith in Christ.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's what condemns me.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: And what flows out of that is going to be a life of indulgence of the flesh, right?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so uh the I think those things are similar but different.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there are people who will read Hebrews that'll say, hey, don't continue to play with sin, because in doing so, it will harden your heart in unbelief, right?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: So there are some arguments from apostasy from a more Lutheran persuasion that would say sin, it's dangerous and it's bad for your soul because it affects faith, but faith is the thing that saves, right?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: So we need to we need to keep eyes on that.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: So um uh maybe let's get into the nitty-gritty.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: We're already, we're already almost 10 minutes in.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: We're kind of framing the discussion.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but but and if there's anything else you're like, hey, we should frame this before we dive in, feel free to speak up, John.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but let's do Romans 8, 12 through 3.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: This is one where we're trying to address comments that came up repeatedly um in the comment section.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: This one came up a few times.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: So then, brothers, we are debtors and not of the flesh to live according to the flesh.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: But if you live according to the flesh, you will die.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: But if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: Argumentation, I soon goes something like this.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, here Paul is writing to a group of Christians talking about walking in the spirit, walking in the flesh.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: We should not, as Christians, walk in the flesh, because if we do so, it's going to put our salvation in jeopardy.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: What are your thoughts, John?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I it's so important when you enter into a conversation that you do not butt in and offer your opinion based upon one sentence you heard someone say.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: I have to teach this to my children all the time, right?
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: My my 10-year-old, this is a constant conversation.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: You can't just jump in, uh, it's rude.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: And also, you don't know the context of what we're talking about and why.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: When you just take two verses and just say, see, this is what it says, that is um it, that is it's unfair to Paul and the author, honestly.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: It you you it he has a reason and a purpose that he is saying these things.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: I use this illustration in the past, I'll use it now because it's gonna apply to multiple examples in these questions that you have.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, Josh, if if Miller came to you and said, bro, when I was visiting Moffitt and I was in Tennessee, bro, I I heard him yell at his son and like grab him by the neck and collar and like like wring him's neck.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna be like, dude, that's abuse.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like that guy shouldn't be an extra.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: So then the first question you would say, Well, well, you saw it happen.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Why did he do that?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then the context comes out.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, his son had headphones on, and we were walking in the park, and he stepped to go across the street, didn't see the car coming.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: He's yelling at him because he can't hear, because he's got headphones, and because he couldn't hear, eventually just grabbed onto him as fast as he could and ripped him out of the way before he got hit by the car.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that changes everything.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: Why why not start with that part of the story?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like you get you're the worst person ever to make John sound like an abuser.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's where I would go.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: So context just absolutely determines everything.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: All right, so let's back up.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Paul gives us, he uses Paul loves to use pictorial language, he'll he'll use language that has um flow and graphicness to it, where we can sometimes can speak very simple.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Paul will use language that has like there's almost artistry to it.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'll give you an example.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Go back to chapter five.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: Paul talks about setting the mind.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Now, that's not something that you and I say.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: We don't say set the mind.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's just not a uh a way in which we word things.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: But if you go back and let me just pull this up real quick on my Bible stuff, where he says, for those, this is Romans 8.5, for those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: Now, when you understand Paul's entire argument in the book and how Paul uses this language, what he's saying is they embrace and acknowledge through action that the way that they're living is the appropriate way of living.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: When they because uh to set your mind on something means that it's almost like um how do I say this?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: I put my exactly, I sat myself in this chair because it it's going to do what I need it to do.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: So therefore, my entire body sat itself in this chair so I could do this.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: He's saying they set their mind on the ways of the flesh because they agree with that way of living.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's why they live that way.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: They agree with the lifestyle.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: So that he says, for those who live according to the flesh, the reason they're living that way is that they've set their mind that this is acceptable.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: But those who live according to the spirit, so if you're watching someone obey, he's saying they've set their mind on the way that the spirit has called us to live.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: They put it this way they agree with Jesus, this is how they should live.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: So they've agreed in their mind, and therefore they've set their actions on it.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the context.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: So verse six, for to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the life, uh, on the spirit is life and peace.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, now that makes a whole lot more sense in the way that Jesus is talking.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: If you agree with me and you believe in me and you set your mind on that, that's eternal life.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: To set mind on would be to believe in it, to trust that to be true.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: If you believe in the flesh, if you re because you you can't put your mind on Christ and put your mind on the flesh, you can't, because they disagree.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: So if I were to word it in today's vernacular, I would say, you cannot disagree with God and consider yourself to be a Christian.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's what he's getting at at the heart of it.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: So if you go back to verses 12 and 13, he's saying, So then, brothers, we are, let's see here, yeah, 13.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: For if you are living according to the flesh, you will die.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's the summary of what he's already said before in the verses five and six.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: But if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, why would you put to death the deeds of the body?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because you agree with God that the deeds of the body are day are bad, they're sinful.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: You've set your mind by faith in believing that his words are true and the worlds are not, or the flesh is not.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: So this isn't necessarily an action under salvation, because then that would mean you would have a reason to boast.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: This is self-svation.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: You are either saying God is true, and I'm gonna set my mind on his truth, and from that is God.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: I my life is already in contrary to that.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna have to be putting to death my deeds because within me is a sinful nature.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: If I set my mind on the world or on the flesh and I agree with them, he's saying, You're not a believer.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: You cannot disagree with God.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: That does not mean, because there's, I mean, this is we're talking about Romans.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: So Romans chapter seven, just back up, right?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: What is all of Romans seven about?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: The struggle that he's having.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I know I'm supposed to be doing these things, but I'm not doing them.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wretched man that I am, who will save me from this body of death.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Paul is saying, I know and I agree with God, but at times my body does not get in alignment.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: And he's saying, This is what God's grace does, is that it calls me to repentance.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: What he's getting at here is saying, There are those who do not agree with God, and their life even shows it, and they have not life.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: Now that's good, man.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I love it, you know, Romans 8.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: If you go back in a few verses, the um, I'll start in verse 7.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: Indeed, it cannot, it cannot.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: One, does that even sound like a Christian?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then Paul continues to say, You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the spirit.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: So Paul is already talking to the Christians, saying, like, hey, this, I'm not talking about you guys, but but but he is he is instructing them that the kind of lifestyle that comes up in our life, hey, that needs to be mortified.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like that, we need to put that to death.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: But this isn't a question about life and death as it relates to a believer, if they begin to act in disobedient ways.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: A believer goes, ooh, that's bad.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: I need to mortify that, right?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh an unbeliever goes, This is good.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: I know what God says, but I don't care.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's not a heart that is transformed.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then I I think here he says, okay, I'm gonna continue.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you, however, are not of the flesh, but in the spirit, if in the uh in the fact that the spirit of God dwells in you, anyone who does not have the spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: So again, I I think uh what does it mean to walk in the spirit?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: What does it mean to walk in the flesh, at least here, is referring to a life that is transformed and rooted in faith, and another life that is entirely set on carnal desires that produces that sort of fruit?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we're gonna see that kind of pattern over and over throughout these questions today.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I think that's uh that's a good place there.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: Is there is there any other area that we would want to camp out here to kind of flesh out the details?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because you and I are both saying sin bad, shouldn't sin.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh sin harms the believer, uh, sin does not glorify God.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it doesn't put your salvation in in jeopardy because we're having confidence in Christ.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: No one here is saying sin good or saying sin bad.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: Why use many words-word dude trick?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: I just want people to understand sin bad.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: We don't we don't like it.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: However, um within that, we we need to say why is it bad and how is it bad, and to what degree is it bad?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: If the question is that someone has faith in Jesus and he has accomplished their salvation, and if they stumble over and over and over, like they they don't make it, you know.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um this kind of teaching, you know, I I had a friend who who got mentally ill, and I hate bringing him up on this program because it touches people who are close to me.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um so if you're watching this and and you know this story and it grieves you, click off, please.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but but he wasn't sleeping.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: He was he was getting like 10 minutes uh a night, he was getting you know two hours a week.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, he was he was it was it was some kind of sleep pattern like that, and he had a he had a mental snap and he had a lot of guilt that he was shaming himself with.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd I'd pick up the f the phone.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: We lived in different states, and I'd call him he was a pastor, and I'd call him once a week, and we, you know, I'd talk him off a ledge essentially, and then he he jumped off a bridge and he killed himself.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and there was a lot of people who were walking away going, well, you know, when he was in that coma for a while, I just I pray that God visited him and gave him room to repent.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: I go, guys, this this dude was a believer.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: He trusted in Jesus, he trusted in Christ.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: Christ was enough for him, and he had he had a he had a psychotic break.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like and and and you think that because he sinned in a way that like he didn't have room to repent in his last final moments, that he'll go to hell.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: But like that's that's not the gospel.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: The gospel is that Christ accomplished the work, and yes, there was this evil and heinous thing that happened to him, a psychotic break, but but also he did an evil thing that wasn't good.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: But even within that, guys, like Christ was the one who saved him.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: His bad work didn't like undo the sufficiency of Christ's good work.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost like there's a passage in the Bible that says, like, can our unfaithfulness nullify God's faithfulness?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: Certainly not.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I just that's right, um, to take a biblical illustration here, but I I want people to see this is where that goes.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if someone ever dies because they got drunk one time, you know, um, made a bad decision, you know, people will question that person's salvation.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um that is not that is not the the thrust and the flow of the gospel, and and it really harms people's assurance.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: I would agree.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: The the unpardonable sin is not suicide.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I know sometimes people make that the case, but it it really is not.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I I think it's important to understand that in there's uh there are multiple passages, and we're gonna get to some of them here in a minute, but there are multiple passages where, you know, Josh, sometimes people talk about going back and visiting the early church.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: I have no desire.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is just an absolute cesspool of problems.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: My church does not have remotely the problem, neither does your church, remotely the problems of some of these churches that had that Paul is dealing with.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they're just really bad.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of it is they were uh this the early church is growing and it's growing fast and it's growing inside of paganism.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: And Paul is having to come in and create some clarity because of false teachers.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Often Paul is counteracting false teachers.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: He's saying those who say that you can be of Christ and yet live in contrary to him are lying to you.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can't do that.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: But what he is not saying is living in obedience to Christ is salvation or affirms your salvation or guarantees your salvation.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: He's talking about a mindset.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: You agree with God, therefore you have to agree with how you live.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is, is what they were hearing, this is true in James and in 1 John.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, James and John were dealing with this, that they were hearing, oh, you're of Christ, but you can live however you want.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like you, you, you don't have to live uh the way in which Christ has called us to live.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: That is just fundamentally not true.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because this is why Paul has to say, as he does here, like even if you go back and you look at um verse uh 11, if but if then if the spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, who has raised Christ from the dead, we also give life to your mortal bodies through the spirit who dwells in you.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: He's saying there's something fundamentally different about you.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: So the way you think and live is going to be different.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's the response to what is happening to you, it's not the guarantee affirmation or the completion of anything.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: And what is he's counteracting really bad teaching.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what happens, though, is that we take it and we miss the context and saying, Oh, what Peter, I'm sorry, what James, specifically James, but James, first John and Paul is saying here in Romans 8 is that if you have this lifestyle of sin, then you're not a Christian.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very uh just to go to Ephesians chapter four, he says explicitly that Christians can be tossed about by every wind of doctrine by human cunningness and deceitful schemes.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've met these people, they are confused and they need to be discipled and they need to be trained.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: And this is why Paul says these types of things, because there are at times Christians who are led astray, who have not been discipled well, and these clarities need to be here.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: And the stark difference is you were told a lie, that you can live according to your flesh, and it's okay.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's actually not true.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: And they counteract it to say the gospel message is that you were set free from the domain of darkness and that through his power you can seek that which is good.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Now you're going to need to do it through repentance and faith because you're going to live a disobedient life the rest of your life.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: But the gospel is to agree with God that I am a sinner, that he is righteous, and that he needs to save me, and I cannot save myself.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: If you say, no, I can be a follower of Christ and live however I want, you are disagreeing with God.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: And to disagree with God is clearly damnation, according to scripture.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's the difference between the law and the gospel.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, this in this particular area in Romans chapter 8, this is what he's dealing with.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: You cannot say, I am a follower of God and completely disagree with him.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like you just cannot do that.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: A good example of this would be um, I am a follower of God, but I can live and go sleep with him any woman that I want, whatever I want, however I want.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that fundamentally goes against what God teaches.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: And you cannot disagree with God's law and say that you're a follower of him.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: Now, uh, we know that David fell.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: We know that many in the New Testament fell.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Look at the church of Corinth.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: So these people agreed with God because Paul comes to them in Corinth and says, brothers, uh, I need to warn you what you're doing is wrong.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't question their salvation.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, hey, you affirm Christ, but your actions are not affirming him, and you need to repent of those actions.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: If they were to say, No, we can live this way, then Paul would remove that title of brother.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: He is saying, uh, you're living this way, and you shouldn't be living this way, and you know that you need to repent of it.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: No, that's right.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think for the the believer, you know, I went straight to like the suicide piece, but like for the believer, what's I think more pressing on them is not just the assurance of others outside, but it's it's it's them themselves.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: For a believer who goes, Oh, you know, if I practice the lust of the flesh, or it here, if the mindset on the flesh is sin in my mind, man, it's it's carnal and I've got lustful thoughts and I'm angry, and like, you know, I really want to serve Jesus and I want to be faithful, but like every day I just I feel sin creeping up inside of my heart.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I feel like my salvation is in jeopardy every single moment.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm telling you, as one who lived this way, constant fear, constant dread that my life was going to self-implode.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: If I did walk across the street after having a bad thought and I got hit by a bus, well, that was the mindset on the flesh.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: That was that was fruitful, uh, unfruitful works of darkness.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, I how how can anyone live in that way and say that Christ has saved me and feel completely confident that Jesus has done the work?
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: And and I bring this up to say, like, this doctrine has really active effects on people's lives.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: And and I don't think we realize it because what we what we think we're doing is saying, well, we don't want people to live unholy, right?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I have a Bible verse that kind of looks like um this will end in destruction if we live unholy.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: So as a way to warn people and to keep them in holy living, what I'll do is I'll tell them that their works um have to have a certain standard to them in order to maintain their salvation, and that will keep the the lifestyle and mission of the church going.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: But what you've done is you've taught people that it's their work that saves them and not Christ.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: They started in the spirit, now they're trying to finish in the flesh, um using Paul's language in Galatians 3.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, no, I that's the all a lot of this comes down to motivation.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: And uh we, you know, I think uh Joan Bavier and and a lot of Pietistic legal revivalists, I mean he's technically a revivalist preacher when you listen to him.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: The um the desire is for people to live a life that is honoring to the Lord.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: I applaud that.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I want I want people to live lives that are honoring to the Lord.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: To remove the hope of eternal life from them because of performance, you just can't do that.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's you just that there's just nowhere in scripture that does that.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: The only time the hammer comes down is I'll give there's some passages coming up in Matthew, uh, that we're gonna look at here in a minute, and maybe we just want to go to those.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: But when G Jesus throws the hammer down, when you have the the Pharisees saying, Did we not perform all of these wonderful acts in your name?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus says, I don't know you.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: You can do all whatever acts you want, but if you don't agree with me that I am salvation, whatever you do in my name does not matter.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like we can throw this on the reverse because they were saying, Look at our lives.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus, like, I don't care about your life.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: As a matter of fact, he calls them workers of lawlessness.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: He says, Your good works, because they weren't done in the faith, Hebrews, without faith, is it impossible to please him?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: Your good works because you did them, trusting in your good works.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: So even when he says in John, Jesus says to the Pharisees, you search the scriptures because in them you think you have eternal life.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's the law, but they speak of me, I'm eternal life.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: So if your good works are somehow involved, we have completely missed the words of Christ and what Paul is getting at here.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: You are not, you do not come into relationship with God based upon any type of work.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's that would be a collaboration, that would be a transaction.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: You are saved by grace, you are sustained by grace.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: How do we know this?
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because salvation is not cleansing of past failures.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Salvation is the covering of the entire life.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: So it's your past that is covered, it's your future that is covered, and then your glorification is not you making it to the end.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: God isn't setting you up for success.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: He says, He who began a good work in you will complete it.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: Look into the author and finisher of your faith.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: So the salvation is the completion of the entire person.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: So when you then say to someone, you you better keep performing till the end.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: At that moment, what you're saying is, I'm not walking by faith, because faith is to look unto Jesus, setting aside the weight and sin.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: Anything that gets me focused on me, this is what the Hebrews 12 says, you're to look unto Christ.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: We walk by faith, we set our minds on the fact that Christ cleanses us, he changes us, he glorifies us.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: So he's the one who starts the work, he begins the work.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: If you then throw in any type of good works that are involved in any one of those three, you have a reason to boast at the end of your salvation, and you actually have a reason to doubt your salvation, because if you're involved, if 99% of it's God and 1% of it's you, then you're 100% damned.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you can mess it up, you will mess it up.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's the point.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's why Jesus says in John 6 that all the Father, whoever the Father gives to me, I hold, I lose none.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like he Jesus isn't a failure when he is a savior.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: He he saves those who he sets his love upon.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: This is why this conversation is important is that if someone is disagreeing or if their life is not in alignment, which happens a lot in the New Testament, we'll get into these passages.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, if their life is not in alignment, they need to be reminded that they're being lied to, they're being deceived, and that the gospel that liberated them is the gospel that will sustain them.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: They don't need to go back to the flesh.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the the it really does bother me, and I know it does you, that once when someone's performance is put in their face as whether or not they will make it, Josh.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'll just end this last comment for the section.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: Brother, let's just talk about loving God.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: The greatest commandment, period, is to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: And we relevatize that law constantly.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: There is not a human outside of Christ who has ever loved God with all the heart, soul, mind, and strength.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Ever.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to stand on the day of judgment and and God says, Well, did you love me with all that you had your whole life?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: And your answer is gonna be no.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like at every moment, at every second, of every hour, of every day.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I just like, did I get close to loving God at one moment with all of me?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe, but like all the time, always?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like, no.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: You watch Transformers on Thursday, you're not making it.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: Your heart's full of stupid pleasure.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and that's the point.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: We like to relevatize the law and make it about morality.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm not cheating, I'm not stealing, I'm not murdering, you know, I haven't committed abortion, I'm not committed.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: We we like to pick these things.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: And James says, if you fail in one area of the law, you fail in all areas of the law.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have failed to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, you are a failure of all.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, you don't walk by obedience, you walk by faith.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: But that's not to say, as Paul says, well, then we should we just not obey, let grace may abound.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: Paul had to say it himself because people thought what he was saying was foolish.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: He goes, I don't care if you think it's foolish, I'm not ashamed of the gospel.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: And no, you don't just go live in sin.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know that's what people feel.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you just really believe that this message is from beginning to end, then you just live however you want.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, even at the heartbeat of his book, you know, are you gonna be ready when Jesus comes back?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: My answer is, uh, I'm I'm ready now.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not even worried about him coming back.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, there is the way I started my journey with Jesus, is how I end my journey with Jesus, which is by faith.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you're asking me if I'm ready, like as if I got to do some kind of preparation.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: There is no preparation to do because when I show up, I'm showing up in his righteousness by faith, and that's what gets me there, not my performance.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: My performance is necessary.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is the thing about it that I completely agree.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Josh, you and I both want congregants and any listener, uh, I'll put it this way Titus three says that the gospel, when properly, he says, I insist that you preach the gospel because when you preach the gospel, it actually produces good works in people and that they're necessary for the benefits of others.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: So we want you to obey not for the sake of your salvation, but for the benefits of others being cared for, loved, defended, and also coming to Christ.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's why our good works matter.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it's almost like we forget what good works are for.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: The good works are for the glory of God, for the advancement of the gospel, and for the caring of others.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you'll notice that the good works, the only time that they are gonna be, you know, pointed towards God is for his glory.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: But the outworking of them, as imperfect as they are, he takes our imperfect works and he uses them for the advancement of his kingdom, but he never uses them for the completion of our salvation.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: You're just not gonna find a passage that indicates that.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna look at a couple more that people think that are gonna be that, and we'll go ahead and dive into those.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you mentioned Matthew 7.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want to like uh let's rabbit trail into that one and then we'll we'll circle back to some of the other ones that we have written on the screen because I want to address this one.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, Matthew 7, I have the passage pulled up.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my father who is in heaven.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: So uh they said the comment sections are like, hey, look, you guys stop too early.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my father who is heaven, on that same day, they'll say to me, Lord, Lord, do we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, and do mighty works in your name, uh, and I will declare to them, I never knew you depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: Look, Josh, they're workers of lawlessness, they break God's law, that's why they're not allowed into the kingdom.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh what would you say about that, John?
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Jesus uses really strong language for self-righteous people.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: And this is exactly what this is.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, why would he call them workers of lawlessness after he actually their actual their list has nothing to do with uh uh sins of disobedience?
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing in there that's disobedient to the law.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: Did you read anything in there that's disobedient to the law?
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, in context, Jesus gives them honestly, he just gives them a slap in the face with this comment.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like even when he comments and says you were whitewashed tombs, which means the outside of you looks really great, but the inside of you is dead.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: They're upholding their works of righteousness and saying, See, we are of your name.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: And yet, we know if you keep reading, which we will learn in a second, their works were not done in faith of Christ.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: So he's saying, All of those things that you did in my name are actually works of disobedience, because to do things for me for yourself, because you're doing it, you're saying you're doing it for me, but you're not, you're doing it for you.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: See, look at what we have done.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you go to the very next section, which is verses 24 and following, it says, Everyone who hears these words of mine and does them, well, what is he telling them to do?
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: Come to me and believe that I am the way, the truth, and the life.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: There is no other, you cannot get to the Father unless you come through me.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: So to do them is to believe that he is the way.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: We'll be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, this is beautiful language that Jesus is using.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: You either put your entirety of your life on the foundation of Christ, and that's your stability.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: And the rains fell in the flood, so we know this.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it says verse 26, and everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them as the foolish man.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: And what he's saying is this is the illustration of these prior people.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: You have built your foundation of your life upon another foundation, not me.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's why it's works of lawlessness, because you cannot obey God perfectly.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's the requirement.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus, there's actually a whole nother section of this.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if you, I mean, I don't know if you want to jump in, but I think this will be helpful in uh uh Matthew chapter 19.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: We'll just combine the two because they're both perfect illustrations.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: So Matthew 19, 16, and behold, a man came up to him saying, Teacher, what good deeds must I do to have eternal life?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Jesus answers the question.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: We think he's saying, Lord, save me.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: He's not saying that.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: He's saying, Hey, how do I earn it?
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: He what he isn't coming to Jesus as savior, he's coming to Jesus as a teacher.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so he responds to him and he says to him, Why do you ask me about what is good?
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: There is only one who was good.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: If you would enter life, keep the commandments.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: So he's even pointing out the fact that you didn't come to me thinking I am God, you came to me as a teacher.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: There's only one who's good, so apparently you don't think I'm the one.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: He said to him, Which ones?
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus said to him, You shall not murder.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: And he goes through the commandments.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: And the man responds, I've done all of these.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you can see the sympathetic smirk on probably Jesus' face of like this this man is not listening, he does not get it.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: And eventually he points out and tells him to go sell everything, and he's saying, You haven't kept everything, because the problem is on the outside, you think you've obeyed these laws, but on the inside, you have a heart problem.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: And he exposes the heart problem.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so when he exposes the heart problem, it says in verse 22, when the young man heard this, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: He realized he couldn't actually keep the law that Jesus was giving him.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't uh it wasn't that he had perfectly obeyed the law, Jesus exposed that he had had it.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now, how do I know this?
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: Look at verse 25.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, Who can be saved?
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: They saw this man, Jewish man, blessed.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: How do they know where he's blessed?
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because he had a lot of wealth.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: And in that, this, it's very clear from the culture, those who are blessed of God must clearly have a place in the kingdom because why else would God bless them financially?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is why Jesus says, uh, truly I say to you, verse 23, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich person to get into the kingdom of God.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: What he's saying is their wealth has nothing to do with why they get there.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: The disciples caught this.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: How do we know they caught this?
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: Look at verse 25.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished, saying, Who then could be saved?
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: Verse 26.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: But Jesus looked at them and said, With man, this is impossible.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: With God, all things are possible.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's the conclusion of the conversation.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: When the man walked up to him and he said, What do I need to do so I can get into heaven?
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus told him what he needed to do, and the man walked away sorrowful, realizing he couldn't do it.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: The man never actually stopped and said, How can you save me?
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: How can you rescue me?
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: You, the savior, right?
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: So back up to earlier in Matthew chapter seven, this is the same concept.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: They're not coming to him with, can you save me?
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: They're coming to him saying, Look at we've done, don't you accept us?
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, No, because you're not coming to me as savior.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: You're trying to earn your position.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, you've built your life on sand that's going to blow you away because this is your own foundation.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: When you build your life on me, then I'm the one that upholds you.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: So these passages have nothing to do with whether what who's obeying or not.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: This has doesn't mean like this man didn't want to get rid of his wealth.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: He never approached Jesus as savior.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: These people in Matthew chapter seven never approached Jesus as savior.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so he completely just destroys their foundation of who they are.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: And rightfully so, they they don't come to him in faith.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now we don't know if these people came to him in faith later, but the point that Jesus is uh clearly giving to us is that salvation is only through Jesus Christ.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: He's the foundation that we put our life on.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: If you try to approach God with the law, you will not be saved.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: Which is, I mean, we we should think about it in context because Jesus is on the tail ends of the Beatitudes, He's on the tail ends of the Sermon on the Mount.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, hey guys, um, blessed are those who are poor in spirit, blessed are those uh, you know, and poor in spirit, because they're gonna see the kingdom of heaven, those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's as hard of dependency on God, not on look at all of my works.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: And in fact, he in that same section uh leading up to chapter seven is going to chastise people for praying in the public square, uh, fasting in such a way that everyone sees their righteousness before men.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: You you've got your reward because you, you, you, you want to be seen.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_02: And this is that same kind of thing.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus has just said, you're gonna know a prophet by their fruit, the kind of life that they produce.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: And he's saying what these guys are producing is a life of uh, hey, look at me, look at the signs, look at the miracles that I have performed in your name.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: And Jesus is saying there's no intimacy, there's no righteousness, there's no dependence, you're not longing for uh Christ to fill you and sustain you and Christ to be the source of your salvation.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: You're looking to all of these other works.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: So Jesus, in the same way that he comes to the rich young ruler and says, Hey, you know, you you think you followed all the law here, but I'm gonna expose an area of your heart where you know you have not followed the law rightly, rightly.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: It exposes this greed.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: And in the Sermon on the Mount, uh, I think John Bevere would argue this, that that grace is right here.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, great, you know, I'm sorry, uh, the law is right here.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: And when Christ comes, he extends, he he heightens the law and makes it more intense because the law says if you look at a woman lustfully, you've committed adultery.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: But when grace comes in Christ, he he makes that standard even more serious and even look at a woman lustfully, but that's not what the Sermon on the Mount is trying to do.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's trying to show what the heart of the law has always been.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus doesn't come on the scene to intensify judgment.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: He doesn't come on the scene uh to bring judgment.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: According to John, he's come to bring salvation.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone's already condemned.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: He's coming to say, look, this is what the law has always revealed.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_02: And we know that because at the end of the Sermon on the Mount, at the end of the Beatitudes, you have a group of scribes, those whose job is to copy the law, and they say that Jesus is writing as one who has authority, like an author, one who authored the law.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus is trying to reveal what the intent of the law has always been to show and expose that none of us can keep it, and we have to look outside of ourselves, the very thing.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_02: That the sign on the back of your wall says.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: Extras.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: We have to find a righteousness that's beyond us because all the law does is expose that we cannot keep it, that we are not righteous, and we need someone else to do it.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: That is not an argument for living in sin.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: That is not an argument to say we can live however we want.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's to say that we need that righteousness in order to live a life of holiness unto God, that we have to receive his works in order to be empowered by the Spirit to do the works that he calls us to do.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_02: And we're never going to do those works perfectly, but that's okay because we have his righteousness.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: We have his power, his spirit empowering us to do those things.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's interesting.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: There's a perfect example, and we always ignore the example, but Judas is the example of one who had fooled everybody, including all of the disciples.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: He he did everything that they were doing.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the day, why was he the son of perdition?
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because he didn't believe that Christ was sufficient.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's why he was the son of perdition.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: So what's interesting to me is that if we want to be preaching about anything that give people warning about, well, whether you're going to make it to heaven or not, we need to be preaching and warning people the way in which Christ is warning them is that I it doesn't matter how well you live your whole life.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: You could be morally involved, uh, you could be morally acceptable, you could be involved in church, you could be tithing, you could be serving, but if you are not putting your faith in Christ, at the end of the day, it does not matter.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: Your good works do not crack the door of heaven.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: And Judas is a great example of this, is that we are always worried about Christians professing without obeying.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: And the illustration was there are many who obeyed, who did good things.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the day, they rejected Jesus as sufficient, Jesus as sole provider.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what these two passages are particularly talking about is that you just because you have someone who is doing good works, doing good acts, it does not justify them, it does not remove their sins, it does not count as perfection, because the requirement is perfection.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I love this illustration of Judas because at times we get so focused in on obedience at the end of the day.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: If you have not faith, then then you have nothing.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: And this is why Jesus makes the point so many times.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's why the the the road is narrow, there's only one door, he's the only path.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can't add Christ and your obedience.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like we want to do that, we want to widen the gate a little bit.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus is like, nope, it's just enough room for me and nobody else.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna keep pushing through because we've got so many texts to be looking at today.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I know.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh let's let's look at this one.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, James, you brought up James.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do James 2, 21 through 26.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'll pull it up here in my Bible app and edit it in post.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, in James uh 2, 21 through 26, was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_02: You see, then faith it was active along with his work, and faith was completed by his work, and the scripture was fulfilled that says Abraham believed God and was accounted to him as righteousness, and he was called the friend of God.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: You see that a person is justified by works, not by faith alone.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: And in the same way, was not Rahab, the prostitute, justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from the works is dead.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: Now we brought this up in our message, you know, when we were responding to John Bevere, because he was arguing that we uh that works is something that completes our salvation, it's what brings our salvation to completeness, uh, that it's a necessary component.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: He was saying things like that our our faith is built on top of our works, not the other way around, that our works are built on top of our faith, that they come out of.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_02: He he he said the exact opposite thing.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: So we we stressed this point in in commenters were saying, hey, look, uh there needs to be some pushback here.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh verse 26 will not carry uh carry that because here uh he's he's he's being justified by his own works.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe we didn't clarify it enough.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: John, can you can you help uh clarify where where we didn't?
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've preached through this and I've done a lot of episodes on this, and it's it's a really tricky passage.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: We again, when you don't allow James to tell you what he's doing, then you're gonna really abuse him and make him say, and he's been accused of saying a lot of things that just not in the text.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, the word justified and the word works, we have to define those terms.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: You and I were having this conversation earlier, where um if if I just start using a word and I never really give a context to it, like for you, you know the word low-key, the phrase low-key.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, go ahead.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I uh you use low-key right after this, but I'll say um on the podcast, I use the phrase ghosty, and uh I'll say that to refer to charismatic uh settings that got really um uh uh uh ecstatic or or uh maybe even unorderly, like oh, that service got really ghosty.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um now some people might think that there is some kind of you know necromancy-like activity taking place in a service, but I was raised Pentecostal and I'm referring to the Holy Ghost, right?
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not uh we didn't use the phrase Holy Spirit very much.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_02: We we we leaned into Holy Ghost, right?
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll talk about something being ghosty as a manifestation of the spirit, um or or or or to refer to that.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_02: My co-host know that, but maybe a first-time viewer hearing me talk about things getting ghosty might misconstrue what I'm saying.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_02: That would be an example of my use of that phrase, or someone else's other you know, use of that phrase might have something entirely different.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: They might be thinking of Ghost Hunters, the TV show.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_02: Things got ghosty.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that would be an example.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: But low-key, yeah.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: I that's a great no, I think that's a great example.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's just I was when that first when that phrase first started getting used, I didn't understand it because it didn't seem consistent in how it was being used.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: So this long car ride with a bunch of teenagers trying to understand what is low-key and what does it mean, because I couldn't understand what they were trying to communicate.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: And once I did, I was like, oh, okay, now I get it.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think your illustration is is helpful here as well.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: To when a word's being used, you should stop and ask yourself, well, how is the author using it and why?
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: And the word justified, we assume it just can only have one meaning, meaning that one is a sinner and is separated and in debt, and justification is the cleansing of the debt and the removal of this space between the two of us.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: So well, that which was wrong is now justified, it's made right.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's how predominantly Paul uses it.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, when James is using it, is James talking about our debt and this space?
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: Is this the conversation?
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: No, he's using the word justification in a different way.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: And how do I know this?
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: Not just because of my own theology or my own reform or whatever.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: You just need to read what Paul is dealing with.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: Paul is dealing with a church where he constantly keeps calling them and affirming them as brothers, as saints, over and over and over again.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the problem to whom James is writing to is people who are living in contra they're they're living in conflict with their faith, and they're speaking down to one another, they're using their tongues in vicious gossip, slanderous ways, they're creating a caste system where you've got those who are rich and poor.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: And Paul or James is getting extremely upset with them because they're claiming to be a follower of Christ, but their actions are not aligning with them.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, there is a gap or a distance between what they're claiming to be and their actions.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so he's saying to close that gap and make them actually work, your faith is related to your actions.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: There has to be this reflection of obedience.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_01: And he's saying your claim to faith is not justified.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_01: He is not saying you're not justified before God, he's saying your claim to it is not justified.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very strong way of speaking, and this is important.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: The way, the best way, let me give you a visual.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: Paul is speaking about our justification between us and God.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: So it's this way, right?
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's vertical.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: James is talking about a church matter, a church issue, and the justification is it's horizontal versus vertical.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: So he is talking about the way in which I am claiming to Josh's face.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: I am an I am a believer, I have faith, and yet I treat Josh horribly.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: He's saying, my obedience is not justified with the faith.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: There is not a one-to-one there.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason why this is important is that he he gives you the differences between it.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: So going back, it says, Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, well, now we have a problem.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_01: Are you telling me that Paul and James are in disagreement here?
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: Or even maybe even James is in disagreement with his own self?
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because he's saying, Well, wait a minute, the moment of true salvation is when he obeyed an offering his salvation.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_01: No, you see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works, and scripture was fulfilled saying Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteous.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so faith in God was his righteousness.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's the important part.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then he goes on to say, and in the same way was not to Rahab, the prostitute justified by works.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_01: The word justification, he is not saying this relationship between God and Rahab or God and Abraham.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: He's talking about this relationship of there being what they claim to be true, they are accounted as righteous, their actions then follow.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: This is why he even at the this is where something that um just for the sake here, go to go to the last section of James.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: I I find this super fascinating.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody ever talks about this, but I'm gonna pull this up.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so James ends it because there's gonna be some those who decide, you know what?
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: I know what you're saying, James, but I just I'm gonna I'm gonna live for I'm gonna live in contrary to what you're saying.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like I it's not it's not that they disagree, they agree with them, they just don't want to repent, they don't want to, they don't want to obey.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_01: So this is Rob, uh this is James 5.19.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: He says, My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from wandering.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: Now listen, there's a difference between rejecting and turning through apostasy.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_02: Is wandering apostasy language, Josh?
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_02: No, it is not.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_02: It is not apostasy language.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's the language that we use when a believer uh, you know, uh is is walking inconsistent, that is, that is in dangerous space, like in Galatians, where he says, uh, you're in the act of being deceived.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_02: You're you who is who's put the wool over your eyes, you're in this process of apostasy.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_02: Or when he writes, um, I think it's to Timothy that I'm I'm afraid that some of you, or maybe no, it's Corinthians, where he says, I'm afraid that some of you will be deceived like Eve.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's this process of being in right standing with God and this temptation that's drawing and luring you away.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Peter, yeah, Peter talks about he's a he's lying in wait, you know, he's a roaring lion, seeking whom we may devour.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_01: So we can be drawn away, we can be what we can wander off.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: So he says, Let him know whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: It says his soul here.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: Not a fan of the ESV translation.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: The actual word there is life.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's his actual body from death, and it says, and will cover a multitude of sins.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's the end of the letter.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: Just think about that for a moment.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's how James decides to end his letter, meaning that there are those who are hearing what he's saying, and they decide that they're gonna actually end up sinning unto death.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: This is Ananias and Sapphira, where they're in disobedience, and instead of uh restoring them with repentance, God just takes them home.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is a great another great example that James is saying your faith, which you do agree with God, again, so they've set their mind on obedience, but they have allowed the culture to influence them, and now they're not living in justification of their faith, meaning their actions are not justifying their claim, which is not consistent with what they how they should be living.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: And if they continue in this type of way, that eventually they could sin unto death, this is not the sin of death, but eventually it sounds like God will take some home.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can, he's called He's trying to call them to repentance.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you use this and say that your works are the justification of your faith, that that if you do not have works, then you cannot have true and living faith, and therefore your works are dependent upon your faith.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, you have to ignore this particular passage.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you cannot agree with multiple passages that say Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, that he who began a good work in you will complete it, and that it's the power of the spirit that produces fruit, that would be the fruit of your obedience, not the fruit of the spirit.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, at the end of the day, when you stand on before Christ and He says, Why should I allow you into my kingdom?
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_01: the answer will be, I obeyed.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: That will be a reason for you to boast, because there will be those who did not obey, and they would be forever damned, because God forgave them, entered into this relationship with them, but they chose not to obey.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, salvation, according to your conclusion, if you're using James in this way and using justification in this way, that justification is truly based upon at the end of the day, your good works.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: That is the only conclusion.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're listening to what James is saying, James is saying, hey, your actions within the church, when you claim to be of faith, your actions are not justifying your claim.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'll give an example too, Josh.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_01: You and I, we want our actions to justify our faith because we're pastors.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_01: If I am going to stand before a congregation and present the gospel and say, thus saith the Lord, a disciple and train people, the first thing that those congregants must do before they allow me to do that is justify my claim.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_01: How do they do that?
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_01: They have to look at my life.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: Does what I say to be true about Christ align with my actions?
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, my obedience is justifying my claim.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's different than my obedience is justifying me before God.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_02: No, that that's that's a you know, when we talk, right?
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um someone in the comment section is being really ugly, and we say something like, Hey, that's not a justifiable way to speak to people, right?
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like you can use that same kind of language to say, hey, look, this is inconsistent.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_02: This is this is not right, it's not lining up with truth.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_02: And this is the way that Paul or Paul, this is the way that James is using the word justification to say this is an inconsistent way of living.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_02: We we see the consistent way of living in Abraham because Abraham was obedient to what God called him to do.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_02: We see the same thing with Rahab.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I I I love that you guys have done this and I've I've hearkened back to it a thousand times, the hall of faith, right?
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's not the hall of faithful.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it is so I mean, they could have used Daniel, a guy who doesn't have a recorded uh account of not trusting God or blunder.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he doesn't have an account of blunder that's recorded in scripture that looks like, oh, he got real egg on his face.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_02: But he records Abraham, someone who passed his wife around a couple times.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_02: You got you got you got Jacob in there who's a trickster, you've got Samson, who literally could not keep one rule, you've got Rahab, whose last name is the harlot, you know.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_02: And here James is doing the same thing.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_02: He could have pointed to someone maybe a little ethically more consistent.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_02: He could have said, look to Daniel, whose whose faith was justified by his works.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_02: And and like someone could walk away from that going, Oh, yeah, this is a morally perfect person.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that that's what it means to be justified.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_02: This lady was a prostitute.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like it doesn't, you know, that's that's wild to say that, like, oh, hey, let's argue about our good works saving us, and uh, let's use a passage where James refers to a prostitute as our example for obedience.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like, that doesn't make sense, it's so inconsistent.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what James clearly is saying, and I think you've done a great job, you know, explaining this, is that James is arguing for a person's consistent life.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_02: And if you go and read the prior passages in James, you're going to see that he cares a great deal about the way that we're treating one another, and then gets into this language of justification.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I when you when you take all of those pieces of context in uh into account, this is not a Romish view.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and I would hear, I would hope people hear this.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, this is the most unprotestant reading of James you could have, is to say that your works are what justify you.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know, like if you were to jump on to any Catholic apologetics channel and they're gonna talk about, you know, Protestants believe in faith alone, you know the only Bible verse that talks about faith alone is this one that says you're not justified by faith alone, but by works.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like it is the most most Romish reading of this text.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't think people realize that they're going, they are wandering from Protestantism into Catholicism when they begin to read the scripture this way.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_02: First and foremost, you know, I said at the top of the show, yeah, I'm not a Calvinist, but I am Protestant, and I hold to the solas, right?
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_02: Sola scriptura, sola fide, sola gratia, so uh uh sola uh uh uh sola deogloria, right?
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_02: Solo Christus.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like it is the whole point of this is to to to focus on who Christ is, what he has accomplished, and we begin to read the scriptures about our own work, we become the Messiah.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_02: We our works are what save us.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not a gospel message.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a gospel message that can save because if we're honest with ourselves, in light of the scriptures, every single one of us falls short.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_02: And if we're gonna say that our our works are what justifies us, how much work?
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like what point, you know, how how how many widows do I have to care for?
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_02: How many orphans?
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_02: At what point uh does that measure actually tip the scales into my favor?
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that what people don't realize is when they begin to emphasize this kind of Romish-like gospel that our works save us, people then begin to live in dread and fear because they don't know when they've reached the moment of apex maturity and apex salvation.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_02: So they're always constantly striving in their own effort and their own energy, becoming exhausted and not resting in Christ-finished work.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_02: So again, I I've belabored the point, said it a couple different ways.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but but this is this is super, super concerning.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_02: Any other uh thoughts on James?
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_02: I've already had you for an hour.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have do you got time to try to tackle a few more of these?
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm oh, for sure.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just even going back to earlier passages in James, you know, what James 2.14, what good is it, my brothers?
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_01: Pay attention, my brothers.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_01: What good is it, my brothers?
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_01: So he's not assuming that they're unbelievers, he's just dressing them as uh believers.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_01: If someone says he has faith but does not have works, can that faith save him?
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, this goes back to what I was trying to explain earlier when Paul talks about setting the mind.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, what ball Paul James is doing this is he's saying you you cannot disagree with God and say that you have saving faith.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is the it's really important to understand this because there's there's two subtle things that are going on here in James, because I know what's going to happen is like, oh, you guys didn't use this particular passage, and uh verse 16.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_01: And one of you says that go in peace, be warmed and filled without giving them the things they needed for the body.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_01: What good is that?
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_01: So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, what he's saying is that he keeps using these this this language where same thing in first John, same thing in Romans 8, there are those who agree with God and their life would align with it, and those who would disagree with God, and he's saying if you say you are in agreement with God, but you disagree here, you're actually saying you disagree with God, and that is not a true and living faith.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that that's important to understand because the moment that you say that your works are involved in your salvation, what you are saying is that you believe in a works salvation.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_01: I know I'm cycling back, but I just want to keep pointing back to these passages that you have to understand the logic.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_01: He's calling them brothers, meaning that he does believe that they're a believer.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_01: He's addressing them as this way, he's just pointing out their inconsistencies.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_01: And he's saying, you cannot live in inconsistent this way.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_01: This is not the true way of living.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_01: And if it gets to a point where they say, no, you can live this way, they are rejecting the truth.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_01: They're going against God, and there's a difference between one who is trapped in sin, Galatians 6 1, right?
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_01: You can be trapped in sin, but you can restore someone who's trapped in sin because they agree they need to be restored.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_01: So he's pointing it out, saying, You guys are trapped, you guys are being misled.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_01: Said, you've got the wrong view.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_01: Let's correct this view because what you're doing is contrary to God.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I know it's convoluted and it's and it's complicated, but it's only convoluted and complicated when you don't allow all of scripture to influence you.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's too many passages from Paul and Peter and James.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'll I'll just quote, you got Ephesians 2, right?
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_01: You are saved by grace through faith, not of works, lest any man shall boast.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_01: You have 2 Peter 1, 3, his divine power is granted to you.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_01: All things that pertain to life and godliness.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_01: You have Chidas chapter 2, you're saved by grace, not of works, lest any man should boast.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're involved, that creates a problem.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_01: We have to take those passages and allow them to also influence us as we read James 2 and James 4.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh let's take a look at uh John 15, 1 through 10.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_02: This is a question that came up a few times uh in the section.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_02: We'll try to link these two people who've asked the questions because I don't know about you.
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um my comment section sometimes fills out so much, and I'm a pastor and I have a family, and I'm like, oh man, yeah, I'm gonna write a book to this person, and uh I don't even know if they'll see it or respond.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_02: So hopefully we'll we'll be able to address as many of them as possible here.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but Jesus says that he is the branch and him bears fruit, but if they don't bear fruit, they're taken away.
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_02: And this is an argument that is being used for believers who are in the vine.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh clearly they've been united to Christ by faith, says the argument.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_02: And if they don't bear enough good works, they are taken off of Christ's body, out of Christ's body because of disobedience.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to read the passage.
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_02: I am the true vine, and my father is the vine dresser.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_02: Every branch in me that does not bear fruit, he takes away, and every uh branch that does bear fruit, he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_02: Already you are clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_02: Abide in me, and I in you, as the branch cannot bear fruit uh by itself unless it uh abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me.
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_02: I am the vine, you are the branches.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_02: Whoever abides in me, and I in him, uh he is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_02: If any one does not abide in me, he is thrown away like a branch and withers, and the branch is gathered and thrown into the fire and is burned.
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_02: If you abide in me and my words in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_02: By this my father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_02: As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_02: Abide in my love.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_02: If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my father's commandments and abide in his love.
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_02: So two passages that kind of stand out in this verse that people would argue for.
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_02: One is, if you keep my commandments, you abide in my love.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_02: So one of the ways that we abide in Christ is through our obedience.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_02: And then here, uh the fruitfulness passage, you're not bearing fruit, but you get turned off of the line.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_02: What say you?
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_01: Again, you have Jesus using beautiful language, and you cannot disconnect everything that Jesus has said, and just again, jump into this one little illustration that he uses.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_01: So what has been the issue so far?
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_01: The issue has been they want the benefits of Christ, which is the kingdom, but they don't want it through Christ.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_01: This has been like Jesus has to give so many illustrations.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_01: They, you know, this is why Nicodemus comes to him earlier on in John, right?
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_01: So John 3, and Jesus and Nicodemus comes to him and and asks him about getting into the kingdom.
• 1:10:50
  SPEAKER_01: And Nicodemus is floored because, first of all, Jesus doesn't make salvation through the Jews, and then it doesn't make it through the law.
• 1:10:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then he makes it about the power of the spirit, because he says, You must be born again.
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_01: He goes, How am I supposed to enter into my mother's womb a second time?
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus says, Nicodemus, you should know this.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_01: You're a teacher, and then he attributes to the power of the spirit, just like you don't see where the wind blows, you you can see it in the trees, but you don't know where it goes, where it where it came from, so is the power of the Holy Spirit.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so he's saying this work that is happening is a work that is done by the power of the spirit, and it's through me.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_01: I am the way.
• 1:11:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then what does he do?
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_01: He uses the illustration about the serpent being raised up, and he tells Nicodemus, I'm the one that's going to be raised up, and if you look to me, you will have that eternal life.
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how you know.
• 1:11:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you believe in me, you have new life.
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_01: If you believe in me, you know that you have a salvation.
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_01: You look to me alone.
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to reject your lineage, you have to reject the law, you have to reject everything that you think it gets you into the kingdom.
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's how he starts the book in Genesis in John 3.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_01: When you finally get to John chapter 15, he's like, I don't think you all are understanding.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I am not a pathway, I am not the ticket.
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like I consist of life.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_01: He uses this language in John 6.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's like that we are actually eating the body and blood of Jesus Christ as the thing that sustains us.
• 1:12:15
  SPEAKER_01: Unless that we feast on Jesus, then we will not have life.
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's this constant language that we are looking to Christ, we are being sustained by Christ.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_01: And when you finally get to John 15, he's using this language that you are fully connected to him.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're fully, he uses the word abide.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a word we really use in our vernacular in modern times, but it is to fully connect oneself, uh, not only for life, but for sustainability.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm not only just brought to life, like a young child is brought to life by its mother, and then it's sustained by its mother's milk.
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_01: We are abiding after being brought to life.
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_01: We are our entire existence is resting upon Jesus Christ.
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_01: There's no other source, nothing, not the law, not my obedience, not the Jews, nothing.
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing outside that I find myself living in.
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_01: I live in Christ alone.
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's why he says, if my words abide in you, because how do you abide in Christ?
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_01: You put your faith in the promises of Jesus Christ.
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_01: You you you're literally not in his arms, you're not literally eating his body.
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_01: What are we consuming?
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_01: We are consuming him through truth.
• 1:13:31
  SPEAKER_01: We put our faith in him, and therefore our entire existence is resting upon him.
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_01: And here is the results of that.
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_01: The results of that is fruit.
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_01: So what happens though is we reverse the entire scenario.
• 1:13:46
  SPEAKER_01: We reverse the scenario of bearing fruit means that I'm abiding, and the more fruit guarantees my abiding.
• 1:13:53
  SPEAKER_01: No, he says, when you abide, you bear fruit.
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's the keeping of the commandments.
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_01: So if you love me, you will keep my commandments.
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Why would we love him?
• 1:14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we cannot love him because the natural man is hostile towards God.
• 1:14:05
  SPEAKER_01: He's not capable of doing this.
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_01: We already talked about this in Romans.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_01: So he brings us to life, we have faith, we fully sustain ourselves in him.
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_01: And what happens is through this abiding, he produces in us these fruits.
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now, it's hard to know.
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I'm going to use Judas as an example.
• 1:14:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard to know who is abiding and who's not abiding, because there are times when it looks like you have multiple people who are abiding.
• 1:14:35
  SPEAKER_01: We don't really know what's going on in someone's heart.
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_01: We really don't.
• 1:14:39
  SPEAKER_01: This is why you remember the illustration with the wheat and the tares, he says, don't take them out.
• 1:14:42
  SPEAKER_01: The day of judgment will take care of that.
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because kid, it's hard to know.
• 1:14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Can you take out a tear without accidentally taking out a wheat?
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like this is a problem.
• 1:14:51
  SPEAKER_01: He's saying the way in which that we know at the end of the day, it's the ones who are not bearing spiritual fruit, the actual fruit of Christ.
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_01: They may be doing all the moral acts.
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_01: You might be standing right next to them.
• 1:15:05
  SPEAKER_01: But if they're not abiding, oh wow, this sounds like the foundation illustration.
• 1:15:09
  SPEAKER_01: This found this sounds like coming to Jesus alone.
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's the same illustration.
• 1:15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus uses the same point with different pictures all of the time.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_01: So the fruit part, you're not saved because you're obeying.
• 1:15:23
  SPEAKER_01: You're saved because you believe and abide.
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_01: And through abiding, you produce fruit.
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the day, when Christ returns, the real fruit is produced by those who have abided through faith.
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_01: And those who have not abided through faith, they will be plucked and removed, even though they were doing the right actions.
• 1:15:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's the scary part.
• 1:15:46
  SPEAKER_01: You could do the right actions, you can produce the right results.
• 1:15:50
  SPEAKER_01: But if your faith and those results aren't being produced by Christ, then they're worthless.
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_01: This is why Hebrews has to say, we're going to get into this because I know there's some passages in Hebrews, but we can jump there for a second.
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Hebrews is uh the problem is they don't think Christ is sufficient enough to save them fully.
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_01: They want to go back to the law.
• 1:16:07
  SPEAKER_01: And he says, without faith, it is impossible to please me.
• 1:16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning, faith in Christ alone, your obedience is worthless.
• 1:16:14
  SPEAKER_01: You cannot please him.
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_01: If you try to use the law to please God and you're doing it apart from faith, this is exactly what's going on here.
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Abide means that Christ is sufficient from my life, and from that produces fruit.
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_01: If at the end of the life when Christ comes and there is no fruit, because you're not abiding, that person is getting plucked.
• 1:16:33
  SPEAKER_01: Even though there might be the evidences of fruit, they're getting plucked and they're going to be burned because they did not abide.
• 1:16:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's not the lack of fruit.
• 1:16:42
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead.
• 1:16:42
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, please.
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's not the lack of fruit.
• 1:16:44
  SPEAKER_02: Finish that sentence.
• 1:16:45
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 1:16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no, because that's the that's that's the interesting thing, is that people think it's the lack of fruit, and they'll think it's C.
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_01: From the perspective of us, they seemed as if they were a part of the vine.
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus says, Yeah, the only ones who are truly a part of the vine are the ones who are abiding.
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_01: That that's the thing where we're missing.
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_02: Go ahead.
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, that's that's uh uh take that abiding language and go back into earlier gospels.
• 1:17:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna go back to John here in a moment and talk about context here.
• 1:17:15
  SPEAKER_02: But because I'm preaching through John, I I've got a more concrete memory of what's going around this passage.
• 1:17:20
  SPEAKER_02: But if you go back to like Matthew's gospel, he talks about the seed in the sower.
• 1:17:25
  SPEAKER_02: And he's like, hey, uh, you know, uh uh a guy went out to to sow seed, right?
• 1:17:30
  SPEAKER_02: Think of the context of that.
• 1:17:31
  SPEAKER_02: There's multitudes of people who are following him.
• 1:17:33
  SPEAKER_02: There's this massive crowd who's there pushing up against him.
• 1:17:36
  SPEAKER_02: So he has to like hop in a boat, get out onto the water, and then use the natural amphitheater-like effects of the water to communicate to this large crowd.
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what he's doing is saying, hey, you know how there's a lot of people here.
• 1:17:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well, eventually you're not going to see as many people here.
• 1:17:50
  SPEAKER_02: And let me explain to you why that is.
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, a sower went out to sow, and some of the seed fell on hard soil.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_02: And because there was no understanding, the enemy came in and snatched that up.
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_02: Birds of prey, if you will, came not that birds of prey eat seed, but you know what I'm saying.
• 1:18:05
  SPEAKER_02: The birds came in, they snatched up the seed.
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_02: Those are devils, right?
• 1:18:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then he has some, you know, because of the cares of this life, they withered away.
• 1:18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Others, because of persecution and trials, they withered away.
• 1:18:15
  SPEAKER_02: But then others bore fruit 30, 16, and 100 fold.
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_02: I think what Jesus is doing is giving context clues for do you see this massive audience?
• 1:18:22
  SPEAKER_02: Not all of them are here.
• 1:18:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, some of them are, but they look like they're here, but like they're not going to stick around forever.
• 1:18:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to explain to you why.
• 1:18:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think the exact same thing is happening here in John 15, because what has just been recorded in John 13, which happens to be my text this week, um, is that Jesus is talking to his disciples.
• 1:18:43
  SPEAKER_02: And in that context, Judas is present and he's about to leave.
• 1:18:47
  SPEAKER_02: And Jesus tells them in John 13, 10, and you are clean, though not all of you.
• 1:18:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then here in John 15, he says, all of you, because Judas has already left.
• 1:18:57
  SPEAKER_02: He had just left the meeting.
• 1:18:59
  SPEAKER_02: It says, All of you are clean because of the words I've spoken to you.
• 1:19:02
  SPEAKER_02: Now the word there that is being used is uh I happen to know this one.
• 1:19:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's like cathay eros, uh, and it means to be pruned, like uh a vine that has been trimmed already is a vine that has already been pruned.
• 1:19:14
  SPEAKER_02: And he's saying, You guys are really abiding in me.
• 1:19:17
  SPEAKER_02: There are some who are going to be taken off of the vine.
• 1:19:20
  SPEAKER_02: They're kind of hanging around the same kind of seed illustration that's being used earlier.
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think he's giving commentary, at least in part on Judas, and that is going to kind of serve the the apostles moving forward about others who kind of circle around the things of Jesus and look like they're part of the vine, but they're not abiding in the vine.
• 1:19:39
  SPEAKER_02: And that is clearly a work of faith.
• 1:19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um John here, that some believe, and they don't really believe all throughout John's Gospel.
• 1:19:48
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's commentary where John will say things like, uh, many believed in him after the purifying of the temple, but Jesus didn't entrust himself to them because he knew it was in their heart.
• 1:19:58
  SPEAKER_02: John is giving commentary that the belief isn't like real belief.
• 1:20:01
  SPEAKER_02: And he does that a couple times in John's Gospel, uh, in John chapter 8, 31.
• 1:20:06
  SPEAKER_02: So Jesus said to the Jews, uh, who had believed in him, if you continue in my word, you will truly be my disciples.
• 1:20:13
  SPEAKER_02: There's this language of abiding and trusting in that word.
• 1:20:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that kind of parallel is being pushed out through here.
• 1:20:20
  SPEAKER_02: John has a consistent theme throughout his writings, and you can see it in 1 John as well, in 1 John chapter 2, verse 19, that those who did not abide in us were not of us.
• 1:20:31
  SPEAKER_02: Again, it's that same kind of language that there are going to be people who hang around, who seem like they're part of the club, but because we don't have the eyes of Christ to see their hearts, we don't really know if they're with us or they're not with us.
• 1:20:45
  SPEAKER_02: And all throughout John's gospel, uh, he is going to make this reference of like, hey, the faith wasn't real faith.
• 1:20:51
  SPEAKER_02: The faith wasn't real faith.
• 1:20:52
  SPEAKER_02: Ah, they they believed, but they it wasn't real belief.
• 1:20:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, he's gonna make that case over and over all throughout the gospel.
• 1:20:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think some commentaries make uh a, they make passages seem uh like they're not real faith at times where I actually go, man, I actually think that is real faith.
• 1:21:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's just uh immature faith.
• 1:21:10
  SPEAKER_02: A good example would be in John chapter 12, members of the Sanhedrin believed in him, but out of fear of the Pharisees didn't confess.
• 1:21:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think Jesus does some commentary and kind of work on that.
• 1:21:22
  SPEAKER_02: I actually think I disagree with some of my commentaries and think that this was actually legitimate faith because John could make the arguments that this was illegitimate faith, as he has already over and over in John's Gospel.
• 1:21:34
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe we're to assume that that applied to these guys, but I think Jesus then in in in the the later passages kinds of explains that this is immature faith, that that hasn't, it's legitimate, it's just not fully developed.
• 1:21:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um so, but that's neither here nor there.
• 1:21:49
  SPEAKER_02: All throughout John's gospel, he's going to make the argument that there are people who believe, but it's not real belief.
• 1:21:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so uh I'll make that argument here.
• 1:21:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um also he says here judgment.
• 1:22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, this is something that is really important to John because those who have placed faith in Christ have no fear of judgment, because perfect love cast out fear.
• 1:22:10
  SPEAKER_02: And what that is, is not my perfect love, my perfect love of Jesus.
• 1:22:14
  SPEAKER_02: I love him so much, I love him so much, it casts out fear of my judgment.
• 1:22:17
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's the exact opposite.
• 1:22:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's his perfect love for us.
• 1:22:21
  SPEAKER_02: And this is what Jesus is saying here.
• 1:22:22
  SPEAKER_02: If you abide in me, you abide in my love.
• 1:22:24
  SPEAKER_02: I love you, right?
• 1:22:25
  SPEAKER_02: And it's that love of Christ that casts out all fear of judgment.
• 1:22:29
  SPEAKER_02: I know his character, I know his conduct, I know what he's accomplished on the cross.
• 1:22:33
  SPEAKER_02: I have no fear of judgment.
• 1:22:34
  SPEAKER_02: When I approach this passage in John 15, I'm not afraid I'm gonna get pruned off.
• 1:22:38
  SPEAKER_02: I know how much my Savior loves me and cares for me, what he's accomplished for me in the cross.
• 1:22:43
  SPEAKER_02: I have confidence that because I have faith in my heart, that's not something my sinful desire could produce.
• 1:22:49
  SPEAKER_02: It was something granted to me by Christ.
• 1:22:51
  SPEAKER_02: Christ has poured out his grace on my heart, by which I'm crying out, Abba Father.
• 1:22:56
  SPEAKER_02: It is his work of his spirit that has done this work of salvation.
• 1:23:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's gonna sound very Calvinist for some people, but it's what the gospels are uh are instructing us.
• 1:23:05
  SPEAKER_02: It is it is telling us that Christ is the one who is doing the work.
• 1:23:09
  SPEAKER_02: The the fruit here, the branches here that produce fruit aren't doing it on its own.
• 1:23:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's a very important thing here in this passage.
• 1:23:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's those who abide in Christ produce fruit.
• 1:23:19
  SPEAKER_02: It is a natural byproduct of abiding in the vine.
• 1:23:22
  SPEAKER_02: It is not a self-exertion of good work.
• 1:23:25
  SPEAKER_02: And if I don't do enough good work, that's bad work and I'm not producing the fruit.
• 1:23:29
  SPEAKER_02: The whole passage circles around the idea that Christ is the one who does the work through his people, right?
• 1:23:37
  SPEAKER_02: So, so I think this is again more speaking of, like you said, spiritual fruit than actual explicit good works.
• 1:23:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but again, I think the argument stands if you want to say these are good works, how are the good works produced?
• 1:23:49
  SPEAKER_02: Is it a believer who has been faithful to do all of the right things, or is it a national byproduct of abiding in the vine?
• 1:23:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna lean into that latter interpretation there.
• 1:24:01
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, uh any other additional thoughts?
• 1:24:02
  SPEAKER_02: Did I say anything quickly thoughts about John?
• 1:24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, the comment about the Sanhedrin.
• 1:24:08
  SPEAKER_01: I remember preaching this, I love this sermon.
• 1:24:10
  SPEAKER_01: So John uh John 19, 38, where it talks about Joseph, it says it a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews.
• 1:24:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's actually how John defines them.
• 1:24:22
  SPEAKER_01: But then this is the same guy who goes and actually stands before the council to get Jesus' body after his death.
• 1:24:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like all of a sudden, the man's like, you know what?
• 1:24:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna that's right.
• 1:24:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:24:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, by the way, let's also talk about those who didn't seem to do quite well after Jesus died, Peter, and 40 days later are standing up on the day of Pentecost preaching the gospel.
• 1:24:46
  SPEAKER_01: So the idea of abiding being this consistency where there's never failure, there's never a struggle, and that fruit is just constant and and never failing, and that you better be ready when Christ like let's just change the scenario.
• 1:25:01
  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus decides to return as the final return while the disciples are sitting in the room terrified.
• 1:25:08
  SPEAKER_01: I guess they weren't ready for Jesus to come back.
• 1:25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wait, they weren't because Jesus literally showed up and they weren't ready for it.
• 1:25:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I'm saying?
• 1:25:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's like this idea of abiding is this consistency that just never fails, and those who are consistent will make it to the end, and those who are inconsistent don't.
• 1:25:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what abiding means.
• 1:25:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like even the bearing of fruit, uh it's like we remove context, and all of a sudden, Christians can never fail or struggle.
• 1:25:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it's only those who don't fail and don't struggle, are the ones who are to truly producing fruit.
• 1:25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just not consistent with scripture.
• 1:25:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the one passage I'll point out is that Hebrews chapter four, it says that with boldness we can run into the throne room of grace to receive mercy and grace in time of need.
• 1:25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Or 1 John, who says, if you sin, there's an advocate with the Father that you can confess your sins with.
• 1:25:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's a there's an idea that we live in a constant state of repentance and need of God's forgiveness and mercy.
• 1:26:04
  SPEAKER_01: We don't live in a constant state of obedience.
• 1:26:06
  SPEAKER_01: One last thing I want to point out is um in John 14, Jesus answered them and says, If anyone loves me, John 14, 23, if anyone loves me, he will keep my word.
• 1:26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now we often want to interpret that to be like obedience.
• 1:26:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is the same thing about abiding, because he goes on to say this in chapter 15.
• 1:26:29
  SPEAKER_01: This is the same concept about hiding or setting your mind.
• 1:26:34
  SPEAKER_01: To keep means that what Jesus has said is about himself for me, that I hold on to it because I don't want to let it go, because I believe it to be true.
• 1:26:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's what it means to keep it.
• 1:26:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's all part of this context of abiding, of setting your mind on it's an agreement with God, and my life is not altered by it because I believe it to be true.
• 1:26:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that you were referencing this.
• 1:26:59
  SPEAKER_01: There are those who believed Jesus was a powerful person, that he was a good teacher, but there's a difference between believing in Jesus and saying that he is savior, like he's the one who can save me, versus, yeah, I believe I believe he's a prophet, I believe he's a good person, I believe he's a good teacher.
• 1:27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, this is the whole point when James is saying is like, well, the demons believe that and tremble, but they're not saved.
• 1:27:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's believing unto salvation.
• 1:27:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's the difference.
• 1:27:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's right.
• 1:27:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I I want to tackle one of these points.
• 1:27:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's a broader point.
• 1:27:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh maybe I'll use Galatians 5 as a springboard text.
• 1:27:32
  SPEAKER_02: But there's two different points that are being made, I think, in Galatians, because we we camped out there a lot because John Bevere used the exact opposite meaning of what Paul was arguing for over and over.
• 1:27:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that it really bothered us.
• 1:27:47
  SPEAKER_02: It bothered me a great deal because I love the book of Galatians, and when you turn it on its head and and make it the exact opposite of what Paul is saying, that it's not a accident, like it's not a oops, I slipped up.
• 1:28:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's a it's a high-handed violation of the scriptures.
• 1:28:02
  SPEAKER_02: And uh whether he was doing this willfully or not, I I I'm not going to weigh into that.
• 1:28:06
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:28:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but uh let's let's hang out in Galatians because the argument of like covenantal gnomism that came really popularized in new perspective with guys like N.T.
• 1:28:17
  SPEAKER_02: Wright and others, um Dunham is another one.
• 1:28:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um but but these guys are going to argue that Galatians is about what do they call it?
• 1:28:26
  SPEAKER_02: They call it uh covenantal markers, you know, like these are the marks of circumcision.
• 1:28:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about the moral law, the moral code itself.
• 1:28:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I I said, hey, look, you you have to become their argument, the new perspective argues that you have to become ethnically Jewish, be spiritual Israel, right?
• 1:28:45
  SPEAKER_02: Essentially.
• 1:28:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that you have to bear the marks of the old covenant.
• 1:28:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um that doesn't mean that you have to keep the Mosaic law um or that you have to to hold these moral codes.
• 1:28:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I made the argumentation.
• 1:28:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Paul is saying Christ plus anything um equals nothing.
• 1:29:02
  SPEAKER_02: Christ plus nothing equals everything, right?
• 1:29:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's that's my course argument.
• 1:29:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm going back to Galatians to make that case.
• 1:29:09
  SPEAKER_02: Will I agree that Paul is talking about circumcision?
• 1:29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, Paul is talking about circumcision.
• 1:29:15
  SPEAKER_02: However, as I look at Paul, he is not exclusively using a reductionistic argument only to talk about covenantal markers.
• 1:29:25
  SPEAKER_02: When I look at Galatians 3, all who rely works on the law are under a curse, for it is written, curse is everyone who does not continue to abide by all things written in the book of the law.
• 1:29:34
  SPEAKER_02: Is that only circumcision?
• 1:29:36
  SPEAKER_02: Is that only like cutting your beard and like wearing the ceremonial garbs?
• 1:29:41
  SPEAKER_02: No, that that that is encompassing the moral and ethical commands of the law as well.
• 1:29:46
  SPEAKER_02: Or Galatians 5.14, the entire law is fulfilled in the single decree, love your neighbor as yourself.
• 1:29:52
  SPEAKER_02: That is clearly the moral law fleshing out all things.
• 1:29:56
  SPEAKER_02: So when Paul is using language of, you know, walking in the flesh to fulfill the law, he is referring to this kind of thing.
• 1:30:03
  SPEAKER_02: He's referring to moral actions, not just marks of the covenant community.
• 1:30:09
  SPEAKER_02: But I think so that's one part.
• 1:30:11
  SPEAKER_02: The one part of the argument is like, hey, are we are we misinterpreting Paul's use of law language?
• 1:30:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna say no.
• 1:30:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'll give you a moment to weigh into that.
• 1:30:20
  SPEAKER_02: But then the second piece that we need to talk about is Galatians 5.
• 1:30:24
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe I'll put that as like a we're gonna hang that up on the shelf where it talks about these actions are not gonna allow you to inherit the kingdom of God.
• 1:30:30
  SPEAKER_02: We'll shelf that for a second and I'll I'll I'll punt it over you for feedback when it comes to new perspective and that sort of thing.
• 1:30:37
  unknown: Sure.
• 1:30:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean Romans 4, if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast of.
• 1:30:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Abraham was well before the Mosaic Law.
• 1:30:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we know that Paul is not necessarily referencing the Mosaic Law there.
• 1:30:49
  SPEAKER_01: Now, some might want to say uh circumcision is eventually included into the Mosaic Law, so you could make that justification there, I guess.
• 1:30:58
  SPEAKER_01: But Titus chapter 3, verse 5, it says he saved us not because of works done by us, actually in righteousness.
• 1:31:05
  SPEAKER_01: So this is not works done by the law.
• 1:31:08
  SPEAKER_01: He's just saying works done for the sake of obedience, for sake of that which is right.
• 1:31:12
  SPEAKER_01: So he's not even referencing Mosaic law here.
• 1:31:16
  SPEAKER_01: He is saying, even works done that are morally acceptable, it says, you are not saved by this.
• 1:31:23
  SPEAKER_01: He has saved us not by works of done in righteousness, but according to his own mercy.
• 1:31:28
  SPEAKER_01: So the contrast there is anything that would be considered acceptable or okay, not necessarily the Mosaic law.
• 1:31:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's very clear the contrast is mercy versus obedience.
• 1:31:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the obedience would be um sorry, mercy would be that which you don't you don't uh receive.
• 1:31:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think the other one would be the contrast that Paul makes actually in Galatians chapter 3 and verse 18, he makes the contrast between the law and promise.
• 1:31:56
  SPEAKER_01: He says, For if the inheritance comes by the law, it is no longer comes by promise.
• 1:32:02
  SPEAKER_01: So there's the contrast, but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
• 1:32:07
  SPEAKER_01: So the fundamental contrast is promise versus earning an inheritance through doing.
• 1:32:12
  SPEAKER_01: So even through Abraham, Abraham is not considered to be righteous, and there's not a contrast even with his righteousness through the law, but it's through the promise.
• 1:32:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's through the believing of the promise, not the keeping of the law.
• 1:32:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I I understand what people are trying to do from this concept of like saying that it's a contrast with the law, the Mosaic law, but there's something different with the moral law.
• 1:32:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I think those particular passages would would counteract that argument.
• 1:32:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I totally agree.
• 1:32:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I I just don't think if if we take a an argument that Christ plus something equals nothing, and I think that's what Paul is saying.
• 1:32:51
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, there's another gospel or any other gospel than the one we proclaimed to you.
• 1:32:55
  SPEAKER_02: And the gospel they proclaimed is Christ is enough.
• 1:32:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but people are gonna circle back around to Galatians because I I looked at what John Vere said and I said, Hey, John is saying that if we don't continue in good works, we are bewitched and we have to work really hard.
• 1:33:09
  SPEAKER_02: There's some kind of witchcraft curse over us if we don't obey the law perfectly.
• 1:33:13
  SPEAKER_02: Is that really what he says?
• 1:33:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's it yo, he literally says that phrase, and then I go, no, no, no.
• 1:33:18
  SPEAKER_02: He says he does, who is bewitched you?
• 1:33:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, This is a common idiom, you know, like me saying who put the wool over your eyes.
• 1:33:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's not to say there's a literal witchcraft curse on people.
• 1:33:30
  SPEAKER_02: It means that someone, you know, who's put a spell on you?
• 1:33:33
  SPEAKER_02: Not literally, but like figuratively, in the same way that wool over your eyes doesn't mean you have a sweater on your head, right?
• 1:33:38
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 1:33:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so so we explain that really bad, really bad.
• 1:33:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but then uh, you know, I said, hey, look, uh, it's not about your your perfect obedience after.
• 1:33:48
  SPEAKER_02: You come to faith, uh, you continue in faith.
• 1:33:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh faith is what saves, faith is what sanctifies.
• 1:33:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we we we give ourselves over to Christ 100%.
• 1:33:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then others are saying, well, no, no, no, you actually have to avoid, you know, the lust of the flesh in order to be saved.
• 1:34:03
  SPEAKER_02: So they come back with um Galatians 5.
• 1:34:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'll do 16 through 20-ish, 21, 22.
• 1:34:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I say, walk in the spirit and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh, for the desires of the flesh are against the spirit, and the desires of the spirit are against the flesh, for those are opposite to each other to keep you from doing the things that you want to do.
• 1:34:21
  SPEAKER_02: But if you are led by the spirit, you're not under the law.
• 1:34:24
  SPEAKER_02: Now, the works of the flesh are evident sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.
• 1:34:36
  SPEAKER_02: I warned you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
• 1:34:41
  SPEAKER_02: But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
• 1:34:47
  SPEAKER_02: Against such things, there is no law, and those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
• 1:34:54
  SPEAKER_02: If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit, let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another at the end.
• 1:35:03
  SPEAKER_02: Full stop.
• 1:35:04
  SPEAKER_02: That is Galatians uh what 16 through 25, 26.
• 1:35:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh John, help us with that, man.
• 1:35:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh when people say, hey, if you if if you have uh an um outburst of anger, if you have any kind of envy, you're not going to inherit the kingdom of God.
• 1:35:23
  SPEAKER_02: That sounds like bad news.
• 1:35:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:35:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so again, going back to how he sets this up, for the desires of the flesh are against the desires of the spirit, and the desires of the spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other to keep you from doing the things that you want to do.
• 1:35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so uh when when you're realizing that this is dealing with how does one uh actually deal with the f issues of the flesh.
• 1:35:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I like we're to chop this thing, like to it's what's so hard about commenting on this type of stuff is that like you you can't chop it up.
• 1:36:09
  SPEAKER_01: We gotta go back, you gotta go back to chapter three, because this is important, this is really, really important.
• 1:36:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:36:15
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, foolish Galatians, who bewitched you?
• 1:36:18
  SPEAKER_01: It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
• 1:36:22
  SPEAKER_01: Let me only ask you this: did you receive the spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
• 1:36:30
  SPEAKER_01: There is the contrast.
• 1:36:31
  SPEAKER_01: Are you so foolish, having begun by the spirit?
• 1:36:34
  SPEAKER_01: Are you now being perfected by the flesh?
• 1:36:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so he's saying the way you started is that you heard the gospel through the preaching of the gospel, you heard it and you believed.
• 1:36:47
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what started this relationship with Christ.
• 1:36:51
  SPEAKER_01: And now they're saying the way in which you deal with it is you go towards the flesh and you deal with it in fleshly manners.
• 1:36:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it says, Did you suffer so many things in vain?
• 1:37:01
  SPEAKER_01: If his indeed was in vain, does he who supply the spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
• 1:37:10
  SPEAKER_01: So he's saying the way in which the flesh is to be controlled, it is to be controlled by the same thing that saved you, which is faith in Christ.
• 1:37:18
  SPEAKER_01: So the law does not have a place when it comes to controlling the flesh.
• 1:37:22
  SPEAKER_01: This is another example of the end of chapter two of Colossians, where it says, These have an appearance of wisdom, but are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.
• 1:37:31
  SPEAKER_01: So we have an issue where they're trying to use the law to control the issues of the flesh, and he's saying this isn't working.
• 1:37:39
  SPEAKER_01: So then, it's verse nine, so then those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, a man of faith.
• 1:37:45
  SPEAKER_01: For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse, as it is written, cursed by everyone who does not abide by doing all these things written in the book of the law.
• 1:37:54
  SPEAKER_01: Notice so we can keep on going on.
• 1:37:56
  SPEAKER_01: So here's this contrast.
• 1:37:58
  SPEAKER_01: He's got an issue with them trying to deal with their problems of the law, sorry, problems of the flesh, by using the law to control it.
• 1:38:07
  SPEAKER_01: The law can tell you what you should do, it cannot give you the power to do it.
• 1:38:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's his point.
• 1:38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Here's what the law says don't do this.
• 1:38:14
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't actually empower you to do that, all right.
• 1:38:17
  SPEAKER_01: Now you can go over to chapter five.
• 1:38:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:38:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now you can go over to chapter five and look at chapter verse one.
• 1:38:24
  SPEAKER_01: For freedom, Christ has set us free, stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
• 1:38:30
  SPEAKER_01: Whoa, this sounds like what he said in Romans.
• 1:38:33
  SPEAKER_01: This sounds like James, this sounds like first John.
• 1:38:38
  SPEAKER_01: We have an issue of there being a confusion of one, you've got people using the law to try and control the flesh, and now we have people who are just ignoring the obedience altogether.
• 1:38:53
  SPEAKER_01: Look, I Paul say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
• 1:38:59
  SPEAKER_01: I testify again to everyone who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
• 1:39:05
  SPEAKER_01: So there is the context, right?
• 1:39:08
  SPEAKER_01: So now you can uh so he's it's again, it's it's using the law for the sake of righteousness, verse five.
• 1:39:14
  SPEAKER_01: For through this, for through the spirit by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.
• 1:39:21
  SPEAKER_01: For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcised nor uncircumcised accounts for anything, but only faith working through love.
• 1:39:28
  SPEAKER_01: So you can see he's constantly pointing us back.
• 1:39:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's faith, it's faith, it's faith.
• 1:39:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the response to this is not the law, the response to this is love.
• 1:39:37
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 1:39:37
  SPEAKER_01: So then you get back down to this idea, it's a mindset.
• 1:39:42
  SPEAKER_01: Those who agree with God that they're going to walk by faith, and that in walking by faith, their life will be look will should look different because that's what it means to agree with him.
• 1:39:53
  SPEAKER_01: Now look at verse 17.
• 1:39:55
  SPEAKER_01: For the desires of the flesh are against the desires of the spirit.
• 1:39:59
  SPEAKER_01: So he's saying when we put our faith in Christ, he actually adjusts our desires.
• 1:40:04
  SPEAKER_01: And our desires is to agree with God, this is how we should live in repentance and understanding that we're not going to do it perfectly, but this is how we should live.
• 1:40:13
  SPEAKER_01: But those who set their mind on the flesh, this sounds exactly like Romans 8, to set their mind or to agree with the flesh.
• 1:40:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality.
• 1:40:25
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone who is embracing this and promoting it as is acceptable, he's saying this person is not in agreement with faith in Christ.
• 1:40:34
  SPEAKER_01: And if they have accepted this lifestyle and said, this is acceptable for me to do and practice, and there's not a problem with it, they're not a believer.
• 1:40:42
  SPEAKER_01: I agree with that.
• 1:40:43
  SPEAKER_01: And you would agree with that.
• 1:40:44
  SPEAKER_01: If you go to a congregate and they're like, yeah, I can cheat on my wife all I want, it's fine.
• 1:40:47
  SPEAKER_01: God doesn't have a problem with that.
• 1:40:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's not true.
• 1:40:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's a lie.
• 1:40:52
  SPEAKER_01: But if a man is unfaithful and you confront him and say, Hey, you should not live this way, you need to repent, as the prophet did to David, and David wept before the Lord and said against you, and you only have I sinned, right?
• 1:41:04
  SPEAKER_01: That is the proper response to disobedience.
• 1:41:07
  SPEAKER_01: But you could at one point say that while David was in sin for a very, very long time, you could say he was an unbeliever.
• 1:41:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's not true.
• 1:41:17
  SPEAKER_01: We can fall into sin.
• 1:41:19
  SPEAKER_01: The difference between it is am I agreeing with this path of sin, saying this is acceptable and there's nothing wrong with it, I can indulge in it and God is fine with it.
• 1:41:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's those who practice these things.
• 1:41:29
  SPEAKER_01: So at the end of it, it says, I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God, but the fruit of the Spirit is love.
• 1:41:38
  SPEAKER_01: So he's creating the contrast between what is acceptable before God, what is not.
• 1:41:44
  SPEAKER_01: Bro, if if Paul means here, I'll end here and I'll throw it back over to you.
• 1:41:48
  SPEAKER_01: If Paul means here, let's just read some of these jealousy, um, idolatry.
• 1:41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, here we go.
• 1:41:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm done right here.
• 1:41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Impurity, sensuality, Jesus says, if you sin with your eye, you're guilty.
• 1:42:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 1:42:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's the conclusion.
• 1:42:09
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have someone who is just even having lustful thoughts, then they're probably not a believer.
• 1:42:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's the conclusion.
• 1:42:16
  SPEAKER_01: If you're gonna take Paul to its logical conclusion and how you're using this, if you have a if you have a lustful thought, you're done.
• 1:42:24
  SPEAKER_01: Or you agree that your lustful thoughts are wrong and you seek by faith Christ's forgiveness, and you walk by the faith, trusting that you don't want to do those things, and you repent and you use his means of imperfect, you're not gonna be perfect, no one's ever gonna be perfect.
• 1:42:38
  SPEAKER_01: That is to agree with what Paul is saying, or to say is I can live whatever sexual life I want, I can do however I want.
• 1:42:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's fine.
• 1:42:46
  SPEAKER_01: That is to prove that you don't agree with God and you're not a believer and you should be worried.
• 1:42:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think if I look to Paul in Galatians 3, and in Galatians 3, he goes, Hey, you started in the spirit.
• 1:42:59
  SPEAKER_02: What was starting in the spirit?
• 1:43:00
  SPEAKER_02: They believed.
• 1:43:01
  SPEAKER_02: Clearly, he's defining that.
• 1:43:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then someone deceived.
• 1:43:04
  SPEAKER_02: Someone said you have to add works.
• 1:43:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then he says, Well, if if you started in the spirit, why are you trying to fulfill in the flesh?
• 1:43:10
  SPEAKER_02: So the the contrast is what is walking in the spirit?
• 1:43:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's believing.
• 1:43:15
  SPEAKER_02: What is walking in the flesh, looking to your own works to justify?
• 1:43:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what happens later on is he's talking about sowing to the spirit and sowing to the flesh.
• 1:43:25
  SPEAKER_02: How is one going to conquer these activities?
• 1:43:28
  SPEAKER_02: How is one going to conquer impure thoughts in their mind?
• 1:43:31
  SPEAKER_02: Again, I'm not espousing a kind of vain triumphalism, but I am espousing a form of sanctification, that if one continues to sow to the spirit, they're going to reap uh the fruits of the spirit.
• 1:43:42
  SPEAKER_02: If I continue sow in the spirit, meaning if I continue to believe in Christ, that he is enough, it will begin to produce in me the fruit of this life.
• 1:43:50
  SPEAKER_02: If I continue to sow uh to the idea that my own good works will be enough to justify me, that if I have to do extra work, what it's going to produce in my life is all kinds of evil.
• 1:44:01
  SPEAKER_02: It will not, uh it will not conquer the indulgence of the flesh.
• 1:44:05
  SPEAKER_02: We have this in Israel's history.
• 1:44:06
  SPEAKER_02: They received the oracles, they received the law, they received the commandments, and it was never enough to purify them.
• 1:44:12
  SPEAKER_02: It was only enough to expose that they were in sin.
• 1:44:15
  SPEAKER_02: And Israel, though they had received the law, the day they received the law, they're having an orgy at the bottom of a mountain.
• 1:44:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like they're not, they are not morally good because they received commands.
• 1:44:27
  SPEAKER_02: And to just, oh, I'm going to obey these commands and be good will never be enough.
• 1:44:31
  SPEAKER_02: Do not be deceived.
• 1:44:32
  SPEAKER_02: God is not mocked for uh what's uh whatsoever one sows, that he will also reap.
• 1:44:37
  SPEAKER_02: For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the spirit will from the spirit reap eternal life.
• 1:44:46
  SPEAKER_02: Again, this is not a language of like spiritual activity that inherits eternal life, because Paul has defined what walking in the spirit or sowing in the spirit is.
• 1:44:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's continuing to trust and place my confidence in Jesus.
• 1:44:57
  SPEAKER_02: And as I do that, the fruit of my life is going to produce this love and joy and peace and patience and kindness and goodness and gentleness and self-control.
• 1:45:05
  SPEAKER_02: That self-control piece is a descriptor of what all of the other sins are being conquered by, right?
• 1:45:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how do I not live with lustful thoughts?
• 1:45:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's self-control.
• 1:45:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well, then how do I have self-control?
• 1:45:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you sow to the spirit, you continue to trust Christ.
• 1:45:21
  SPEAKER_02: So again, I want the the listener out there to hear what we are not championing is a life of an indulging in flesh.
• 1:45:30
  SPEAKER_02: What we're championing is live a life in faith to Christ and a life that is wholly devoted to Christ being sufficient, him being enough to have saved me, will save me, will sanctify me, will one day glorify me.
• 1:45:42
  SPEAKER_02: He saved me from the penalty of sin.
• 1:45:44
  SPEAKER_02: He's saving me now actively from the power of sin, and one day he'll save me from the presence of sin.
• 1:45:48
  SPEAKER_02: That Jesus, when you place all of your confidence in him, that produces a life of holiness.
• 1:45:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what people are arguing, and I did this, uh, I'm gonna open a can of worms that people are gonna have a field day with in the comment section.
• 1:46:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I became more generous when I began to live my life in light of being led by the Spirit and not the commands of tithe.
• 1:46:12
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 1:46:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like I was like, hey, 10%, that's God's, that belongs to you, it's yours, but the rest is mine.
• 1:46:18
  SPEAKER_02: I own it.
• 1:46:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then when it came to moments of needing to be generous, needing to put tires on someone's car, needing to pay someone's school bill, those kinds of things would come up.
• 1:46:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'd be like, God, I've given you what's yours.
• 1:46:27
  SPEAKER_02: But when I understood, the law can only condemn and expose my need.
• 1:46:32
  SPEAKER_02: The law doesn't produce in me the heart that God wants to produce in me, which is a heart of generosity.
• 1:46:38
  SPEAKER_02: And the law did nothing but say, hey, this is the minimum requirement.
• 1:46:40
  SPEAKER_02: And that's all that I did.
• 1:46:42
  SPEAKER_02: But when I gave my life to a place of saying, hey, Lord, I trust you with my finances.
• 1:46:46
  SPEAKER_02: Would you lead and guide me?
• 1:46:47
  SPEAKER_02: That produced in me more sacrificial giving.
• 1:46:51
  SPEAKER_02: So people think people won't give unless I teach them to tithe and I command them to tithe and they have to give.
• 1:46:56
  SPEAKER_02: They won't be generous.
• 1:46:57
  SPEAKER_02: I found the opposite to be true.
• 1:46:59
  SPEAKER_02: When you tell people to live a life trusting Christ and surrendered, realizing all that you have is his, he will call you to be more generous.
• 1:47:08
  SPEAKER_02: And it produces a kind of fruitfulness in sacrifice.
• 1:47:11
  SPEAKER_02: You look at the times in the Bible where people were told to give as their heart compels them, told to give as the spirit leads, they gave everything.
• 1:47:18
  SPEAKER_02: When Moses is building the temple and is, hey, give as your heart compels you, he had to tell them to stop giving.
• 1:47:24
  SPEAKER_02: When the apostles in Acts 2, hey, you know, uh as the Spirit leads, they devoted everything to the apostles' feet.
• 1:47:31
  SPEAKER_02: When you have command, people don't live up to the standard of command.
• 1:47:36
  SPEAKER_02: When you tell people to live by the power of the Spirit, as the Spirit leads, they live above the command.
• 1:47:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I I would just encourage people that our righteous actions are not going to be produced by careful observance.
• 1:47:49
  SPEAKER_02: They're going to be produced by trusting in Jesus and seeking him for guidance, seeking him for leading, seeking him for power to accomplish what he's called us to do.
• 1:47:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, anyway, the comment section is going to blow up.
• 1:47:59
  SPEAKER_02: People are going to be angry, but uh whatever.
• 1:48:01
  SPEAKER_02: Start touching ties.
• 1:48:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, just come out of the woodworks.
• 1:48:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I know.
• 1:48:05
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't agree with you more.
• 1:48:07
  SPEAKER_01: Chad Bird has a great book on this generosity given, by the way, if you haven't read it.
• 1:48:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, do what I think is uh you should always ask why is Paul saying something?
• 1:48:15
  SPEAKER_01: This has helped me so much in my preaching.
• 1:48:18
  SPEAKER_01: When you finally get to the end, Paul does this twice now.
• 1:48:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'll show you in in uh Colossians or sorry in Titus.
• 1:48:24
  SPEAKER_01: So look at verse um, let's see if we're in Galatians chapter six.
• 1:48:29
  SPEAKER_01: Look at verse uh, let's see here, verse 10.
• 1:48:34
  SPEAKER_01: It says, So then, okay, you always have to ask, why is it there?
• 1:48:38
  SPEAKER_01: The so then has the point, it's the application, right?
• 1:48:43
  SPEAKER_01: So then, as we have opportunities, let us do good to everyone, especially to those who are of the household of faith.
• 1:48:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what's right before that?
• 1:48:51
  SPEAKER_01: If you're sowing to the spirit, it's beneficial to others.
• 1:48:56
  SPEAKER_01: That list of the flesh is just absolute debauchery and benefits nobody, right?
• 1:49:03
  SPEAKER_01: When you think about obeying the flesh or going with the flesh, it is damaging and destructive to everyone.
• 1:49:11
  SPEAKER_01: It abuses and uses, it's deceitful.
• 1:49:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I tell I tell this to my kids all the time when I finally catch them and they're sinning, and I stop them and I say, Hey, are you happy right now?
• 1:49:20
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, No.
• 1:49:21
  SPEAKER_01: I say, Are we happy?
• 1:49:23
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 1:49:23
  SPEAKER_01: That means sin benefited nobody.
• 1:49:26
  SPEAKER_01: But according to the Bible, that we love people sacrificially, we have joy, and people are cared for, and that it benefits them.
• 1:49:33
  SPEAKER_01: This aligns with a life of godliness.
• 1:49:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'll I'll show you one other passage.
• 1:49:38
  SPEAKER_01: This one I absolutely love.
• 1:49:40
  SPEAKER_01: This is Titus chapter 2, verses 11 and 12.
• 1:49:44
  SPEAKER_01: It says, For the grace of God has appeared.
• 1:49:47
  SPEAKER_01: By the way, grace is a person that's Jesus Christ, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions.
• 1:49:58
  SPEAKER_01: What is training us to renounce ungodliness?
• 1:50:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 1:50:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the law, it's not fear of God's return, it's not fear that I might not be saved.
• 1:50:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's not me trying to complete my salvation.
• 1:50:12
  SPEAKER_01: Grace, abiding, trusting, all of that is what produces fruit.
• 1:50:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's what produces obedience.
• 1:50:19
  SPEAKER_01: We read it again: training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in this present age, waiting for our blessed hope.
• 1:50:29
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 1:50:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because we're waiting for him to get back.
• 1:50:30
  SPEAKER_01: How else are we going to live?
• 1:50:32
  SPEAKER_01: The appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ.
• 1:50:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so the conclusion then is yes, we want there to be obedience.
• 1:50:39
  SPEAKER_01: The result is not the affirmation of our salvation, the completion of our salvation, or waiting for God to return and hopefully we be found in him.
• 1:50:46
  SPEAKER_01: Paul Paul is saying twice now the obedience is for the benefits of others for God's glory, and it's the result of our faith.
• 1:50:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the affirmation of our faith or the completion of our faith.
• 1:50:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is important, Josh, because uh I want people to obey.
• 1:51:03
  SPEAKER_01: Obedience is not the completion of our faith, it's not our entrance into Heaven.
• 1:51:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it definitely is not the is not for our assurance.
• 1:51:10
  SPEAKER_01: We are assured, we abide, we are loved, and that produces obedience.
• 1:51:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when he talks about feeding into it, we feed into the gospel.
• 1:51:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's what produces obedience.
• 1:51:22
  SPEAKER_01: But if you turn away from the gospel and you feed into the flesh, he's like, here's all of the things that happen to your life that aren't beneficial.
• 1:51:29
  SPEAKER_01: And if you actually agree with feeding into your flesh and it's acceptable, then you're not a believer.
• 1:51:35
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 1:51:35
  SPEAKER_02: Man, this is so good.
• 1:51:36
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:51:37
  SPEAKER_02: I hope this helps people, man.
• 1:51:39
  SPEAKER_02: I really do.
• 1:51:39
  SPEAKER_02: Because I I do think the people who are asking these questions are not part of our mainstream audience.
• 1:51:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think they saw something, this guy that really transformed their life, really helped them in a lot of ways.
• 1:51:48
  SPEAKER_02: They they saw a clip and went, wait, what?
• 1:51:51
  SPEAKER_02: And then jumped online and flooded the comment sections.
• 1:51:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm glad they did.
• 1:51:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I don't feel I don't feel any kind of animosity towards them.
• 1:51:58
  SPEAKER_02: I don't feel any kind of frustration with them.
• 1:52:01
  SPEAKER_02: I I hope that they are able to watch a response like this and it will serve them to go, hey, don't mix these two things.
• 1:52:08
  SPEAKER_02: The law is good because it exposes our sin, but the law is not good enough to transform our lives.
• 1:52:15
  SPEAKER_02: The only way that we are going to have a life that is transformed is faith in Christ alone.
• 1:52:20
  SPEAKER_02: And when I've placed faith in Christ, it produces all disobedience.
• 1:52:23
  SPEAKER_02: But this, like, hey, if I if I stumble and if I fall, I've removed myself from grace is a message that's just contrary to the scriptures.
• 1:52:32
  SPEAKER_02: You look at, you know, you mentioned Peter a moment ago.
• 1:52:35
  SPEAKER_02: You look at Paul.
• 1:52:36
  SPEAKER_02: These guys were not consistent in living.
• 1:52:39
  SPEAKER_02: Now you look at the Old Testament saints, the hall of faith, they were not consistent in living.
• 1:52:44
  SPEAKER_02: It was faith that justified them.
• 1:52:46
  SPEAKER_02: It was faith that kept them.
• 1:52:47
  SPEAKER_02: And those who remained in faith were those who produced the most consistent lives, the most holy lives.
• 1:52:54
  SPEAKER_02: And again, it's not a it's not a measurement of like fruit inspection.
• 1:52:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not trying to make you live more holy than the guy down the road.
• 1:53:01
  SPEAKER_02: Because back to the parable of the seed and the sower, the seed landed on good soil, but it was God who determined what would bear forth 30, what would bear forth 60, what would bear forth a hundredfold.
• 1:53:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that at times, at least potentially, having come from a Pentecostal background myself, I think that there is an expectation that is tied to some of this.
• 1:53:19
  SPEAKER_02: One is, hey, we we we don't want to fall into sin and lose our salvation, but there's also this vain triumphalism that says if we continue to live well, God will reward us with power.
• 1:53:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I just I hope that people who are watching this will realize that Christ's sacrifice to save is the same sacrifice that he offered the spirit to you, right?
• 1:53:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like he pours out his spirit because of his ascension, because he has conquered, because he has defeated hell.
• 1:53:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I hope that people who watch this can really, really trust in Christ to go, okay, uh my confidence to cast out demons, my confidence to pray for the sick is not going to be rooted in all of my good obedience, but my confidence is in Christ's obedience, his power that has been given to his people.
• 1:54:02
  SPEAKER_02: So so I I hope I know this is a very uh involved episode, very theological.
• 1:54:07
  SPEAKER_02: We we kind of jumped around in lots of places of scripture, but but I hope that the people who are watching this can really trust Christ, that he's saved, that he'll keep, and that he continues to empower, and that's his work, not yours.
• 1:54:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I think when you realize that, um you you you can rest.
• 1:54:23
  SPEAKER_02: And and that's a that's a big theocast theme is resting in Christ finished work.
• 1:54:27
  SPEAKER_02: But man, I I think it's a gospel theme.
• 1:54:29
  SPEAKER_02: I I think it's a thing for all of God's people and for those who I just assume are probably in this place of like, man, they're they're they're exhausted from all of the the effort, thinking, oh, I'm not good enough to receive revival, I'm not good enough to please God.
• 1:54:46
  SPEAKER_02: I keep stumbling, but but I'm pot committed.
• 1:54:49
  SPEAKER_02: I've been I've been so committed to sowing my good works into this that I can't abort this train of thinking.
• 1:54:54
  SPEAKER_02: I would just repent, I would, I would plead with you to repent.
• 1:54:57
  SPEAKER_02: I would plead to you to count it all as lost, all of that hard work, just count it all as lost for the sake of following Christ and go, hey, I'm I'm gonna build my life on a firm foundation because the foundation I've been living on has been shifting sand.
• 1:55:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I can tell you from experience, it is.
• 1:55:12
  SPEAKER_02: And there's no confidence, there's no trust.
• 1:55:14
  SPEAKER_02: And you go in, you you, you know, I think God responds to faith.
• 1:55:18
  SPEAKER_02: And if my faith is all tied up in my own good works, man, um, I I have no confidence when I pray for the sick.
• 1:55:23
  SPEAKER_02: I have no confidence that God's gonna show up in power because I know me.
• 1:55:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just telling you, as one who wants to like walk in faith here, and I know that that's a that's a strong charismatic leaning, as one who wants to walk in faith here, uh, I would urge you uh to place the faith in a person rather than in your works because your works won't be good enough.
• 1:55:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay, I I think I've landed a plane as far as my thoughts here.
• 1:55:46
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have any additional thoughts that you want to add before before we wrap up, John?
• 1:55:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just want you to think about the logical conclusion of Christ.
• 1:55:54
  SPEAKER_01: He says, Come to me, all you who have be laden and are burdened, and I will give you rest.
• 1:55:59
  SPEAKER_01: He's talking about righteousness from for the law.
• 1:56:03
  SPEAKER_01: So he gives us rest from salvation, saving ourselves.
• 1:56:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then at the end of his life, he tells the disciples, Go and uh, all authority has been given to me on heaven and on earth.
• 1:56:13
  SPEAKER_01: So the authority has to do with Christ's authority.
• 1:56:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then what does he send us out into the world to do?
• 1:56:18
  SPEAKER_01: To preach the gospel and make disciples.
• 1:56:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's really hard to do that, Josh, if you're just trying to get yourself into the kingdom or you're worried that you're in the kingdom, or like, I don't even know how I'm doing.
• 1:56:31
  SPEAKER_01: The confidence that we are to have in the gospel is based upon what Christ has done for us so we can be effective and fruitful and rescuing others.
• 1:56:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like American Christians are so worried about whether they're in the kingdom, they're not doing kingdom work.
• 1:56:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, my encouragement to you is God never intended you to live in this constant fear and doubt.
• 1:56:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's not rest means he's got you.
• 1:56:55
  SPEAKER_01: Have the energy now to go help others, but we're so worried about am I in?
• 1:57:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I just this the fear-mongering of like, are you ready for when Jesus comes back?
• 1:57:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's not the work you were sent to do.
• 1:57:08
  SPEAKER_01: The work you were sent to do is care for others and proclaim the gospel because you're assured.
• 1:57:13
  SPEAKER_01: So take that message.
• 1:57:14
  SPEAKER_01: And if anybody's trying to get you focused in on you and not the work of the kingdom, says seek first the kingdom of God.
• 1:57:20
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean get into it, it means seek his work.
• 1:57:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a different way of thinking.
• 1:57:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's the way that we need to be thinking, no matter what denomination we're formed or not.
• 1:57:30
  SPEAKER_01: We all need to agree on what is the gospel, what we should be doing, how we do that, we can divide up into our denominations to do that.
• 1:57:36
  SPEAKER_01: But let's just make sure we get those two right.
• 1:57:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, like uh I think John and I are going to disagree on some soteriology pieces.
• 1:57:45
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna disagree, I would imagine, on areas of spiritual gifts and spiritual warfare, and we're gonna disagree on maybe some nuances on ecclesiology.
• 1:57:53
  SPEAKER_02: I've watched enough of your content to think we probably don't actually.
• 1:57:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, there's a whole lot of areas that we we could disagree on.
• 1:57:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, however, yeah, we are able to lock arms on this thing.
• 1:58:04
  SPEAKER_02: And some people hear this video and they're like, oh, you know, you're you're being divisive and you're trying to split up the body of Christ and you're speaking against a man of God.
• 1:58:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, no, actually, I'm trying to unify the body of Christ over the one thing we can all agree on, that Christ is enough, that Christ is sufficient.
• 1:58:17
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I I think that this message brings immense unity.
• 1:58:22
  SPEAKER_02: You you know this because you'll see someone in a different denomination on a street corner, and when they are preaching the gospel, you're like, oh yeah, that's a brother.
• 1:58:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, like I don't I don't care how Pentecostal and flamboyant this guy is in his church services.
• 1:58:34
  SPEAKER_02: Then I see him on the street up there proclaiming a real gospel message, Christ alone is enough.
• 1:58:39
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to clean yourself up, come and believe.
• 1:58:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I go, Yeah, that's a buddy.
• 1:58:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like I just he might be a weird uncle, but but that's a brother.
• 1:58:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he's in the family for sure.
• 1:58:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that for all of us, we get to, we get to do that.
• 1:58:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I've got a really maybe more legalistic kind of Church of Christ friend, but like when I see them proclaiming the true gospel, only only faith alone, I go, man, that unifies.
• 1:59:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't think this is a divisive thing.
• 1:59:05
  SPEAKER_02: I hope that in fact it is a unifying thing, but we have to define gospel right in order to live in that kind of common unity.
• 1:59:12
  SPEAKER_02: That that's what the word community means is common unity.
• 1:59:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's those those words being you know knitted together.
• 1:59:18
  SPEAKER_02: And what gives you know John and I communion, what gives us uh a community of faith is that we have common union over the main thing.
• 1:59:27
  SPEAKER_02: Everything after this is tertiary.
• 1:59:29
  SPEAKER_02: We have the the doctrine of God, who God is and how we're reconciled to Him.
• 1:59:33
  SPEAKER_02: Those are the core messages of the Christian faith, and we've got to get that right so that the body can live in cohesive unity with one another.
• 1:59:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um okay.
• 1:59:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh guys, thank you so much for tuning in to this episode.
• 1:59:46
  SPEAKER_02: John, I've kept you way longer than I expected you.
• 1:59:48
  SPEAKER_02: This is a two-hour podcast, but you might be used to take two episodes of Theocast at a time, so who knows?
• 1:59:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh guys, thank you so much for tuning in.
• 1:59:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Theocast is linked down below.
• 1:59:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, he is going to be a contributor to this video, so make sure to click over there and watch their content.
• 2:00:02
  SPEAKER_02: We cover all kinds of theology on this podcast.
• 2:00:06
  SPEAKER_02: We cover all kinds of you know spiritual gifts subjects and controversies here on the podcast.
• 2:00:11
  SPEAKER_02: But if you watch this video and go, man, I think I've confused law and gospel a lot.
• 2:00:16
  SPEAKER_02: That is basically the entire channel of Theocast.
• 2:00:19
  SPEAKER_02: I would encourage you to go over there, binge watch some episodes, really challenge some of your thinking.
• 2:00:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think I listened to Theocast probably for two years, believing what they were saying, but it was by year three that I started experiencing it.
• 2:00:31
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, just the reprogramming of my mind.
• 2:00:33
  SPEAKER_02: My my default mind was look back to your work, look back to your work, look back to your work.
• 2:00:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and through constant renewal, and I obviously that's in the scripture, but but I'd come up to passages of like, oh, what about this?
• 2:00:44
  SPEAKER_02: This looks like work.
• 2:00:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then, oh, hey, look, there's a Theocast episode on it.
• 2:00:47
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, oh, good.
• 2:00:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like uh this actually is constantly rooting me in Christ finished work.
• 2:00:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I would encourage you if you're out there, maybe you've got got law and gospel confused, maybe this episode helped reveal some of that.
• 2:00:59
  SPEAKER_02: Go check out their content.
• 2:01:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's extremely valuable.
• 2:01:01
  SPEAKER_02: John, thanks so much for joining us.
• 2:01:03
  SPEAKER_02: And uh man, well, we'll we won't make it too long before we do another one.
• 2:01:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's good.
• 2:01:09
  SPEAKER_02: Peace out, guys.
• 2:01:10
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for tuning in.
• 2:01:10
  SPEAKER_02: We'll see you next week.