Latest / Simply Bitcoin / Natalie Smolenski | Defining Capitalism | Simply Bitcoin IRL

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Natalie Smolenski | Defining Capitalism | Simply Bitcoin IRL · Simply Bitcoin

0:07
Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of
0:10
Simply Bitcoin IRL. Today, we have a very special
0:14
guest been looking forward to this conversation.
0:16
Natalie smolinski. I hope I got that right.
0:19
She's shaking her head, so it looks like it looks like I did.
0:22
Anyways, before I get her on stage, I want to give a
0:24
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2023. Anyways, Natalie happy to have
0:57
you on the show, how you doing? Great to be here.
0:59
Thank you. Did I get your last name right?
1:02
You sure did hear that guys, Nico.
1:05
Niko's. Stepping up in the world.
1:07
Anyways, Natalie, I've been fascinated about your stuff you
1:12
know, the I think the first time I heard you was on the Peter
1:15
McCormack podcast and the way that you were talking about just
1:22
in please step in if you think I'm phrasing this incorrectly
1:26
the way that you are speaking about, how you manage the
1:30
American Empire, or just America is degrading in such a way.
1:36
Fascinated me and because, you know, we've been, I think a lot
1:39
of people are really feeling what's going on, but they can't
1:43
really put it into words. So if you could be so kind,
1:46
like, what is your perspective about what's going on?
1:49
What what went wrong? What got us here?
1:53
Sure. So In the cycle of
1:59
civilizational rise and decline. There's typically a period of
2:06
consolidation of resources and which an Empire builds up pools
2:13
of resources often through Conquest.
2:16
But also through trade which kind of feed the economic growth
2:23
and expansion of the Empire, then generally Happens.
2:28
Is, there's a population explosion in the empire,
2:32
particularly among the Elite Class who reproduce quickly, and
2:36
who use vastly more resources than the rest of the population,
2:42
as the ability of the Empire to take in resources or to find
2:49
external sources of resources. Diminishes, their, the reaches a
2:54
kind of Point pass. Fast, which it can no longer
2:58
grow. And at that point, it becomes
3:02
kind of a game of musical chairs where people particularly Elite
3:07
start vying for scarce resources and its that Elite in fighting
3:14
because Elites tend to control the military, the political
3:17
apparatus, the financial system that infighting between Elites
3:23
tends to factionalized society and then off, And these periods
3:28
also include uprisings from the lower classes who are upset that
3:36
in a world of shrinking diminishing resources, they have
3:39
even less than before. And so this these periods of
3:45
civilizational decline tend to be very violent and turbulent,
3:52
they don't have to progress this way but it's it's Been difficult
3:58
for human societies, historically to break out of
4:02
these Cycles once once they've entered them.
4:05
And so, the United States is I would suggest objectively in a
4:10
period of Decline and it's up to us to decide how we want to
4:16
navigate that. Yeah, and absolutely.
4:18
And you know what? I'm so glad that you brought up
4:21
that aspect about the elites because I remember seeing that
4:25
graph and if my memory serves, Serves me correctly.
4:28
Let me know if this is the this is if this is correctly, what
4:31
you were referring to Natalie, these are the waves right?
4:36
Popular well-being. You know, we had the peak, it
4:38
looks like the pecan and of course, remember the income tax
4:42
at that point, you know, during the FDR Administration was like
4:44
up to 90% And then it started to decline and then the elite
4:49
overproduction is that what you're referring to?
4:51
Or am I talking about something different?
4:53
Yeah so it looks like the graph you have pulled up.
4:57
Up is the structural demographic theory of History.
5:01
So this this is a theory proposed by Peter turchin who is
5:07
actually an evolutionary biologist by training but has
5:13
over the past several decades, been writing about history and
5:17
trying to apply some of these scientific insights from
5:21
evolutionary, biology to the evolution of human societies.
5:25
And so this structure, Demographic, Theory suggests
5:30
that Elite overproduction is in fact, a major cause of social
5:35
unrest. And in fact you can see it.
5:38
Also in the archaeological record, we're in periods of
5:43
overpopulation. You see the skeletons of people
5:47
from that period are actually smaller because people tend to
5:51
be less well-nourished or even malnourished and then, you know,
5:57
He goes through these violent cycles of decline population,
6:02
decreases. And then the agricultural world
6:06
is able to support the next birth of population growth.
6:12
So that was kind of the human cycle under agrarian societies.
6:18
Until about the year 1800, what's interesting is that with
6:21
the Industrial Revolution in some ways this process of rise
6:26
and decline. Mine has been accelerated
6:29
because capitalism is such an engine of economic growth and
6:35
and also of innovation and change.
6:38
And so, what we're seeing is that instead of there being, you
6:43
know, these great disparities where, you know, you can really
6:46
kind of map more clearly, discreet civilizations more and
6:51
more. The world is a, is an
6:52
interconnected system and the polities are larger that were
6:56
talking about or a larger. Larger.
6:58
And so, the the structural demographic Theory looks looks a
7:01
little different, but is broadly in Contour the same.
7:07
It's so fascinating. And you, when you were just
7:10
talking to us, like I've seen that before, I've seen that
7:12
graph. I've read that before.
7:14
And do you believe so it sounds like human history is just
7:18
Cycles. It's this, this is cycle.
7:21
Going up going down, you know, whatever it is and of course,
7:26
unfortunately My Generation just happens to be at the Pinnacle,
7:30
or the decline of that said cycle.
7:33
Is that correct? Yeah, so certainly in
7:38
interactions view history has the Cycles.
7:42
So it has literally has a book called cycles of history, where
7:45
he writes about the rise and fall of several different
7:48
civilizations. The thing that Carries the
7:52
greatest potential for helping us break out of these Cycles is
7:57
in fact, entrepreneurial capitalism and that's why it's
8:00
so interesting to me is a social scientist because capitalism,
8:05
leaving aside ideological definitions is actually a social
8:11
technology for generating capital from Capital.
8:14
So, you're actually putting Capital to work to generate New
8:19
Capital. This is why you see See things
8:22
like skyrocketing GDP growth as countries began to move into
8:29
capitalist systems of political economy.
8:32
That doesn't mean that the benefits of capital were
8:35
distributed equally by by any means.
8:38
And that's a big part of what caused the social unrest of the
8:41
19th and 20th centuries. But nevertheless this drive to
8:45
innovate this drive to do more with less, you know, to feed
8:50
more people. With less land, with less water
8:55
to capitalize a global economy with let's say, you know, a
8:59
digital Ledger that that is its distributed but it's in some
9:06
ways much more economical than relying on, you know, 130
9:10
separate governments to maintain their own militaries and central
9:14
banks. And so, what we're seeing is the
9:19
consolidation of some of the The functions of the nation-state
9:25
which which were kind of these like hand-cranked forms of
9:29
lawfulness and rule-based. Order that also created the
9:35
conditions for the rise of capitalism.
9:38
And so, we're in this really interesting era where there
9:41
actually is a lot of opportunity to break out of the cycle of
9:44
decline. But we have to have the right
9:48
leadership who doesn't just play.
9:51
By the rules of a declining World Order.
9:55
Yeah. And speaking of right
9:57
leadership, right? And again, I'm like, put all the
10:00
ideological stuff aside because I know a lot of people are going
10:02
to focus on that. But speaking about a leader that
10:05
has delivered results right? And if you put the ideological
10:08
stuff aside like I said I'm buchelli right?
10:12
You know drastically reduced the murder rate in his country
10:19
record GDP growth 10.3%. Sent ever since they started
10:23
recording that since the 1960s, it's never happened before.
10:29
Is that what you mean by a type of leader that is thinking
10:34
outside of the box and how much of those results Natalie are due
10:39
to the Bitcoin effect. And what I refer to the Bitcoin
10:42
effect and we had CK from Bitcoin magazine, I think it was
10:46
yesterday's episode where Bitcoin drastically changes your
10:50
operating system. You know, what happens when you
10:54
are denominating in a currency that increases in purchasing
10:57
power over time versus denominating or using a currency
11:00
that decreases in purchasing power over time, it completely
11:04
revamps and changes your perspective on the world, right?
11:08
You have you have the ability to save and plan for future?
11:11
I would like to believe but I'm also I also am aware.
11:14
I'm tremendously bias that I think Bitcoin becoming legal
11:18
tender played a small role in the success of else.
11:21
Ava door, no doubt. I think that's one example of
11:29
President Kelly, really putting the interests of the people of
11:35
El Salvador above the political consensus of the Global
11:40
Financial system, which is, you know, has a very strident point
11:45
of view about what is and is not money.
11:49
But of course, president Raquel a was President long before
11:54
that. And before that had political
11:57
career in El Salvador, I think he started started out as mayor
12:02
of a small town and built from there.
12:06
And so, you know, his career has has been punctuated by a series
12:10
of reforms that really cross ideological divides.
12:16
It's one of the reasons that he he was not really legible To the
12:22
party that he was a member of. So his father had been a
12:27
prominent leader in that party and Keuka Lake kind of inherited
12:32
that party affiliation, but didn't really fit with the
12:36
party's ideological agenda and he was able to build coalitions
12:40
with younger members of the opposing party who also didn't
12:46
quite fit with their party. And so, Ambassador Molina, my
12:50
yoga who I recently had the pleasure of spending time with
12:54
in Austin, as we you know set up this Bitcoin Embassy of El
13:00
Salvador. In Austin she was telling me
13:03
about being expelled from her party for supporting president
13:08
buchelli and in effect you know, having to resign from her party
13:14
being, you know, kicked out of her office in Congress as a
13:18
sitting congresswoman because every office is allotted by Buy
13:21
a party. And yet remaining a sitting
13:24
member of Congress and, you know, her party, opposed her
13:29
appointment as ambassador to the United States by the president,
13:34
you know, in her, in her retelling of the story.
13:37
He basically told her to just go and so this is, this is actually
13:41
what we can think of, as Civic entrepreneurship.
13:44
So, entrepreneurship isn't isn't just a for-profit Endeavor,
13:51
anyone. Who has a point of view on how
13:53
to get from point A to point B which is all leadership is is
13:57
just getting you and your people from point.
14:00
A to point B anyone can be an entrepreneur anywhere you are.
14:06
Yeah, 100%. And so we spoke about good
14:09
leadership and we've spoken about how 9 bouquet Lee and the
14:14
party that I think is called my best ideas, which new ideas,
14:17
right? So there are these at the proof
14:18
is in the pudding and the that it's in the name, it doesn't try
14:21
to hide it. So we speak about a good form of
14:25
Governors is new form of governance, right?
14:27
That's kind of Bridging the ideological, traditional tropes
14:30
of the left and the right that dominated politics for last
14:34
hundred years or so. But I want to bring it back to
14:38
the United States and because you work BPI, you know, or
14:42
you're part of BPI. Better said, I apologize, you
14:46
definitely must be plugged into what is going on.
14:50
Nick, Carter wrote an amazing piece called operation shook
14:54
Point 2.0, where he laid out all the recent moves by the body
14:59
Administration to at least at least slow down the adoption of
15:05
Bitcoin in the I did States. We have Kaitlin Long's bank that
15:08
was denied Federal Banking Charter, which would make it a
15:12
competitive Bank. It was denied.
15:15
You had the Hostile Bill introduced by Elizabeth Warren
15:19
and Senator Marshall, and a bunch of other examples as well.
15:24
So, there's clearly this, you know, our show, we call it a des
15:29
Shadow War, it's not really public.
15:31
It is in there. If you read the the wording,
15:34
like, if you read the Purrs. It's there.
15:36
They tell you exactly what's going on.
15:38
I guess they don't advertise it very like, they don't really
15:41
talk about it much. So what's your take on that?
15:44
It is this malicious, is this come from a place of?
15:48
They're just not educated on the subject.
15:51
What's your take on that? It's completely expected.
15:56
So the Global Financial system in over the past several
16:03
Generations has Basically been a tool, not only for u.s. foreign
16:10
policy but also for us. Domestic law.
16:14
So the imposition of us domestic law in other jurisdictions and
16:19
this is because of the unique status of the US dollar as the
16:23
global Reserve currency. And so, any transaction that
16:28
needs to be settled in, u.s. dollars has to go through the US
16:33
banking system, which is A fully subject to the political control
16:41
of the American government. And so it's it's unsurprising
16:47
that this system would be used perhaps, initially, as a tool, a
16:54
kind of proxy for kinetic conflict.
16:56
So the American people we've been through a number of Wars
17:01
over the past few Generations. But most recently, you know,
17:05
Iraq, Afghanistan, the global war on terror which you know, is
17:09
still ongoing but the American people are tired of War.
17:14
They don't want to be shipped off to new theaters.
17:17
There's there's very little support for actively putting us
17:22
men and women into a kinetic conflict.
17:25
And so what do politicians do instead?
17:29
They rely on the softwar of sanctions which is economic
17:35
Warfare. And that is a tool that the u.s.
17:38
government has used with greater and greater frequency over the
17:42
past several administrations. And that, our ability to
17:46
sanction governments is entirely predicated on our control of the
17:52
Global Financial system. This is the main reason that the
17:56
brics countries are building an alternative bricks coin,
18:00
commodity-based, SDR and launching.
18:05
No cbc's and and building their own parallel Financial system.
18:10
It's not to say it's any better than the u.s. controlled one.
18:15
But all of this, you know, to your point, this weaponized,
18:20
Financial infrastructure is now being used to combat the very
18:25
antidote to this level of surveillance and political
18:29
control which is Bitcoin. And so this is, I would say, you
18:33
know, the first shots have been fired and that then.
18:35
They fight you stage. Yeah, 100%.
18:39
And that's something that we started picking up on very early
18:43
on, in the case that we'd like to make it simply, is that I I
18:48
don't see. Another way there is an
18:50
inevitable clash between this, right?
18:52
You have a system of which a bureaucratic Elites are
18:56
basically picking and shoot too simplified, of course, picking
18:59
and choosing who's entitled to use money or not.
19:02
We know that when a country is sanctioned, it's The population
19:06
that is most hurt governments are able to successfully survive
19:10
or circumvent them, right? If that wasn't the case.
19:14
North Korea would have been taken out a long time ago, but
19:17
they're still going strong. Cuba as well, right?
19:20
Literally. Right next to United States, but
19:22
it's actually the people of those countries that are the
19:24
most hurt, right? And it is kind of, it is the
19:28
weaponization of money and now you have something and open
19:31
monetary Network where it doesn't matter.
19:33
Whether you're in Cuba, North Korea, if you have internet, Get
19:35
access in a cell phone. All of a sudden, you're
19:38
entitled, or you have the ability to own private property
19:42
for the first time in your life, right?
19:43
And you would think that the Bitcoin, in a way really does
19:48
represent the traditional American ethos.
19:52
So, you would think that the American government would be
19:55
open to something like this, but it's almost as if it's been and
19:59
again, like I don't want to sound too hyperbolic or
20:02
whatever, but it's almost as this has been taken over by
20:04
this. Frankenstein bureaucratic
20:08
creature that's been funded by this money printer.
20:12
I don't know what your response is to that.
20:14
Yeah, no certainly. I mean, from my point of view,
20:19
Bitcoin is a crystallization of the American project in in a
20:25
monetary object in commodity money.
20:29
But it's a, it's a measure of how far the political Isis.
20:36
The Overton window of what is acceptable to advocate for
20:41
politically in the United States?
20:43
How far away that is shifted from the generation of the
20:48
founding of this country? You know, where as I pointed out
20:52
on Peter McCormack George Washington you know believe the
20:56
United States should not have a standing army because he saw
21:01
standing army as a precursor for.
21:05
Ernie that that Army can be weaponized against the people
21:09
just as quickly as it can be weaponized to fight foreign
21:14
Invaders. And so, you know, we not only
21:18
have the standing army. We have the world's largest,
21:23
like, ever in all of human history, military-industrial
21:27
complex. And so that is, that has created
21:32
a set of incentives of game conditions.
21:35
And that has incentivized a lot of American leaders to
21:40
perpetuate that system. And so you know as as often
21:45
happens, you know, well-meaning people try to reform the system
21:50
from within they generally fail and so reform then has to come
21:56
from without and historically often that's happened through
22:01
some kind of catastrophe, you know, natural disaster play.
22:05
Warfare, you know, enemies taking advantage of the weakness
22:12
of the internal system, but in the case of Bitcoin what's so
22:17
wonderful about it is that it's a bottom-up solution.
22:22
So it's completely orthogonal. There's no permission seeking
22:27
from the state or from mainstream political opinion.
22:32
It's simply there as a Geology as a tool that anybody can adopt
22:39
and more and more people will choose to adopt it Bitcoins.
22:42
Adoption is outpacing. The adoption of the internet.
22:47
And so, as that happens, what what we'll see is the creation
22:51
of facts on the ground that the state has to deal with whether
22:57
they like it or not. And so we're going to find out
23:01
what what that looks like in practice.
23:06
We are definitely going to find out that is that is undeniable
23:11
and I tweeted this out the a couple days ago and one of the
23:15
things that fascinates me about Bitcoin is its ability to expose
23:20
incentives. I don't think there's anything
23:22
else that I've seen that does this because we are led to
23:26
believe that we live under a government.
23:28
It's by the people for the people.
23:31
I don't think it's a government by the people for the people
23:33
anymore. I think.
23:34
It's a government by the government for the government,
23:36
right? And then not to mention the
23:38
Revolt, the so-called revolving door in the Imperial City
23:42
between, you know, Wall Street and positions of power in
23:46
government, right? So yes, I do see that eventually
23:55
it's going to say what? What gives you know what is
23:57
actually going on here? What is the deal?
24:00
Does that worry you? What does that look like on?
24:04
Sudden, of course, you know you're part of Epi so you are in
24:09
the Vanguard so to speak, you're in the trenches.
24:12
So in your perspective, what do you foresee?
24:14
What do you think is going to happen in the next five to ten
24:19
years or so? And before you answer that, you
24:22
know I want to mention Sailors line, right?
24:26
I want to be a winner, I don't want to be a martyr so I think
24:29
people like Michael sailor are seeing the writing on the wall
24:32
as well. Yeah, absolutely.
24:34
Lutely there, there is no virtue in losing and and this is one of
24:39
the things that I think has been so upsetting to many, who have
24:44
seen activism, as their path, to political reform activism tends
24:52
to, you know, whether left or right, or whatever, the
24:54
political orientation is activism as a mode of
24:57
Engagement. Often prioritises virtue
25:05
signaling to the in-group over winning.
25:10
And so, what we've seen is various activist causes arise
25:16
attempting to reform the set of incentives and game conditions.
25:22
You know that have resulted in, you know, Elite capture of the
25:26
state and they've all failed. Um, and, and so the, the
25:34
question then becomes, you know, what's the alternative to
25:38
activism? If you're if you're a concern
25:40
person who generally wants to create change, well, building
25:45
Alternatives, right is is a really important Avenue and
25:49
that's what Bitcoin is. But more importantly, it's also
25:55
a kind of, you know, if your goal if you have an objective
26:00
political objective, let's say you need to develop the skill,
26:07
to read the room, you know, to to assess, what's actually
26:12
feasible under the social conditions that you are amidst,
26:19
simply being right entering In a room and and screaming, you
26:26
know, your views that's the activists mode and ultimately,
26:31
it doesn't matter. It makes you a Target and it
26:35
often makes you a martyr. And so, the point, the point is
26:38
not to be right. The point is to build the social
26:43
coalition's that can instantiate over time, what you believe is,
26:49
right? And that actually takes things
26:52
like real skill, like you have to have Of operational, skilled
26:56
technical skills, social skill, relational skill.
27:00
You have to become the person who can build the institutions
27:04
that will embody the change that you want to see.
27:08
If, you know, if all of your theory of change is let's select
27:13
the best president. I mean, well that's just a fully
27:16
top-down theory of change. Like if only we had the right
27:21
god-king, we could solve all of our problems.
27:24
Yes. Well, that's a profoundly
27:26
authoritarian. Point of view on how social
27:29
change happens, which is not to say that leadership, doesn't
27:33
matter. It absolutely does leaders, most
27:36
of all are Role Models. So the behavior of leaders is,
27:40
what gets imitated consciously or unconsciously by the people
27:45
they lead. And this is why, you know, from
27:48
my point of view in these periods of Crisis, it can often
27:53
be important for Institutions to do less with more Integrity.
27:58
So that's what I would suggest. The federal government needs to
28:03
do at this point, do less. But with more integrity, and
28:08
we're already seeing gridlock at the federal level means that in
28:12
a federal system, power devolves to the states.
28:16
And this is one of the reasons that I founded the Texas Bitcoin
28:20
Foundation, because I think it's important, To lead locally at a
28:26
scale where you can more meaningfully impact change, one
28:29
of the reasons that we're seeing so many amazing things happen in
28:33
El Salvador is because it's a small country and you can you
28:37
can actually run a small country like a city state or a large
28:41
company. So you can have that level of
28:45
executive leadership that really gets things.
28:47
Done. That's much harder to do in a
28:49
country of 400 million people like the United States.
28:53
Yeah, 100%. And then It.
28:55
And I've had these thoughts and it goes deeper than that as
28:58
well, right? Because it's like, if you think
29:01
about it, if people start using an alternative to the u.s.
29:05
dollar, right? What is really holding the
29:08
state's together, right? And that's a really big
29:11
question. And then another component to
29:13
that is I think a lot of these states would get along even with
29:17
their very, very deep ideological differences, because
29:21
they wouldn't be competing for the money printer.
29:25
And I think that a lot of the political upheaval is because
29:31
that's what it's that, that's what the competition is about,
29:34
right? So do you believe it's a more?
29:37
It's a more, you know? And Mark, mosses, as touched
29:39
upon this to where you reach Peaks the centralization.
29:42
Now, we're heading into decentralization.
29:46
Do you see that in the future where the state's individual
29:49
sovereignty is more important than this huge federal
29:53
government? Ain't that I don't think would
29:55
be as powerful if they didn't have the money printer.
29:59
Hmm, no doubt, this, the crisis of the ability to get things
30:07
done on the one hand and a crisis of purpose more.
30:11
Broadly, you know what? What is America what?
30:14
What is the American project? Is forcing us to return to the
30:21
more fundamental question of what is sovereignty.
30:25
So what does it mean to be a sovereign people?
30:30
This, this question of sovereignty is something that
30:33
has kind of been taken for granted, you know, in periods of
30:38
peace and prosperity. It can seem either irrelevant or
30:42
self-evident but now we're forced to ask that question.
30:47
Kitchen again, and I would suggest that sovereignty is
30:53
several things. One, it's the ability to defend
30:57
oneself, so to protect one's Integrity, physical Integrity,
31:03
territorial Integrity from Invaders to.
31:07
It is self-sufficiency. So the ability to generate the
31:13
material resources, the economic growth that A stain, your polity
31:18
over time, so that you're not dependent on other polities.
31:23
And then three, its purpose. Why, why is this community
31:28
together at all? What what is it doing together?
31:33
And so I would suggest that, you know, from a, from a territorial
31:38
defense standpoint, there is a very strong case for the States
31:44
of America to remain in a union. I I think it we truly do have
31:51
some dangerous enemies and us hanging together in a
31:56
territorial defense pact. Makes a lot of sense from a
32:00
sovereignty standpoint. Similarly makes a lot of sense
32:04
from an economic standpoint. The United States is one of the
32:08
most resource-rich countries in the world.
32:12
I mean we could be fully self-sufficient for food for
32:16
energy. G for many natural resources if
32:20
we wanted to be. And that's because of our
32:24
territory, the natural resources that were blessed with.
32:27
And so, I think, you know, I think economically and
32:30
militarily. There's a very strong case to
32:32
maintain a union, but it's that third thing, the question of
32:35
purpose of who are we as Americans?
32:39
What is the American project that question has to be answered
32:44
in order for the first two elements of Sovereignty to
32:48
continue to have meaning. Yeah, and but so okay.
32:52
So interesting, so what if those differences?
32:57
Because again and I'm looking at it from the Trish traditional
33:00
ideological sense. If you look at Red States and
33:03
blue States they will answer that question completely
33:07
differently, right? So is that necessary in order
33:12
for Union to remain specifically, if the money that
33:17
People are using in this states are not it's not necessarily you
33:21
know it's not necessarily the dollar it's Bitcoin and for my
33:25
opinion I think I think that those differences aren't, you
33:29
don't need to agree, is what I'm trying to say.
33:31
I think people are just going to go to whatever state they see,
33:35
you know, is better for them. Yeah, now I I think the
33:40
beautiful thing about Bitcoin from a community building
33:46
standpoint, it is that it's enemy money so you don't have to
33:50
agree with me about anything, but we can agree on the value of
33:55
this currency and the method of transacting this currency and
34:01
and what that points to is the opportunity, if you can take it
34:09
of a union built on true diversity, true difference where
34:16
we don't have you be alike, we don't have to, you know, make
34:21
the red States, blue States, or vice versa, I can actually have
34:27
a common project with you even if we have profoundly Different
34:31
World Views because the things we do agree on the basic
34:36
principles of Liberty, prosperity of respect of justice
34:44
for all these are things that We can actually coalesce around as
34:49
a people even if our lived expression of that differs.
34:54
Yeah, 100%. So I want to go back to the very
34:58
beginning of the conversation, where you, you touched upon
35:01
capitalism. Yeah.
35:02
Right. I'm a big fan of capitalism.
35:05
Capitalism has definitely taken the most people out of poverty
35:10
and human history. You look, it's a parent.
35:12
You look at a chart, it doesn't lie.
35:15
Why do you think capitalism has gotten such a bad rap?
35:19
And that's the initial question. The second question is, do you
35:24
think that it's not necessarily that it's the deficiencies of
35:27
capitalism? It's maybe that we haven't been
35:31
living in capitalism, but it's been advertised as capitalism.
35:35
I don't think it. I don't think you can have
35:37
capitalism. If there's a central bank.
35:40
Hmm. Yeah, well, and many would agree
35:45
with you. I think, part of the problem
35:49
with the term capitalism, is that people who use it?
35:54
Rarely Define it and they're there are real disagreements,
35:59
including by, like economists and, and Scholars of economic
36:04
history about what capitalism is, you know, some would say
36:09
that it is the Private ownership of the means of production.
36:15
Well yeah, maybe but then you look at countries like China,
36:22
where the state owns significant stakes and virtually any
36:27
Enterprise that matters and they are one of the most rapidly
36:33
expanding capitalist economies in the world.
36:37
And so if it's not private ownership then Is it, as I
36:43
suggested early on, in this conversation I think capitalism
36:47
is actually just the tool of compounding capital from
36:51
Capital. So whether that is reinvesting
36:56
profits in New, in new development, research and
37:01
development to generate greater Innovations and greater profits
37:05
over time or financial Capital, the miracle of of compound
37:12
interest, which, which is, you know, something that has that
37:17
has enabled people to passively grow their wealth for centuries.
37:23
So it's these technologies that are a capitalist and that enable
37:29
economic growth. I think what we've seen though
37:32
in recent years is in the United States and in many of the
37:36
advanced economies is a much stronger.
37:41
Left toward the financial Capital side of things and
37:46
Addie, emphasis on entrepreneurial capitalism.
37:50
The, the capitalism of investing resources to generate new
37:56
innovations that then generate greater and greater profits over
38:01
time. And that is the form of
38:04
capitalism that fuels the productive economy that
38:09
Financial capitalism. Pens on and so, you know, part
38:13
of the like Elite expansion that we've been talking about in
38:18
these secular Cycles is the rise of the Global Financial Elite.
38:24
They, you know, make their living extraordinary amounts of
38:28
money, basically arbitraging the real economy.
38:34
But that, that process of growth can only continue so far because
38:39
at some point, The real economy has to produce the returns that
38:46
justify the valuations and the speculation that's being done,
38:53
by Financial capitalists. And so many of the critiques of
38:57
capitalism are often critiques. Specifically of financial
39:01
capitalism or critiques of worker exploitation, which is a
39:06
serious problem in every economic system, you know,
39:09
feudalism capitalism. Mercantilism whatever.
39:14
Anytime there are power imbalances there, there are
39:17
abuses of power. And so it's very important when
39:21
we have these conversations that we actually Define our terms and
39:25
be very precise about what we're talking about.
39:28
Instead of using these flag terms to Signal like I'm with
39:32
this guy or I'm on this team. No, and in, it's so it's so
39:38
fascinating. And of course, you know, we
39:40
simplified on. We Bitcoin, you know, we call
39:43
them the unproductive class the the rent Seekers so to speak.
39:47
And but do you wear how does ask you this question?
39:52
Does Bitcoin fix? Capitalism does Bitcoin make
39:56
capitalism better and the way that you just defined it and if
40:00
it does how so I would never say that Bitcoin fixes capitalism
40:08
because it's a category error there to they're two different
40:14
things. What I think Bitcoin does do is
40:19
it makes commodity money accessible to everyone, you
40:25
know, you could, you could re-platform the entire global
40:29
economy from a single Bitcoin. Not only because it's sub
40:33
divisible into 100 million Parts but because those each of those
40:41
parts of a Bitcoin exist in a trade pair with every other unit
40:47
of account and medium of exchange, every other currency
40:51
in the world. And so what Bitcoin is is, it's,
40:55
it's kind of its this Universal form of collateral.
40:59
And in an economy where So, so, you know, lending Bank, Private
41:07
Bank creation of money. Through lending is a chief
41:12
engine of economic expansion and of capitalism.
41:16
You couldn't, you couldn't see the kinds of growth that we've
41:20
seen in human economies over the past few centuries, if you
41:23
didn't have credit. And that also means debt.
41:28
The problem is though, when you have so much Credit and so much
41:34
debt that your collateral can no longer in any way.
41:39
Meaningfully backstop. That debt at that point you have
41:43
a recipe for collapse and so what Bitcoin can do is conserve
41:48
as this politically neutral Universal collateral layer that
41:54
can actually backstop many many of the areas either private or
42:00
you know, Sovereign around the world.
42:02
That are suffering debt, crises interesting, or is very
42:07
interesting. It, you know, you've really
42:09
opened my mind to getting into the very specifics of capitalism
42:16
and defining that term. I think that I've definitely,
42:20
you know, I'm definitely guilty of using the the flag-waving
42:25
term of what I Define as capitalism which is, you know,
42:28
free market, you know, entrepreneurs build things and
42:32
You know, the the market sends you price signals, etc.
42:34
Etc. I never looked at it from the
42:38
financial capitalism in the other aspect and I find that
42:42
really, really interesting. Now you said something there
42:44
that I'm sure the audience would love to hear what you mean by
42:48
that. You said that I asked you if
42:51
Bitcoin fixes capitalism and you said that is a categorical
42:55
error. What do you mean by that?
42:56
And why did you say that a category error just just means
43:01
that we're talking About two different categories of things
43:06
in a way that's incommensurate. So, capitalism is a system of
43:11
political economy, whereas Bitcoin is a money, a form of
43:17
currency, you know, there there could be you could make a
43:25
historical, perhaps economic argument that the form of money.
43:32
Somehow influences, the type of political economy and a society.
43:36
But I think that argument would be very hard to make because for
43:41
for most of human history, you know, coins currency were
43:46
commodity some form of commodity money, gold and silver, but the
43:50
economies were not capitalist, they were futile.
43:54
And then potentially, you know, marcantel as this transition
43:59
state between feudalism and capitalism.
44:02
And so it's not the money itself that will magically create for
44:09
us the system of political economy.
44:11
We want that actually is up to us.
44:14
Like we, as people have to, you know, have to decide.
44:18
Do do we want a nationalist King based political order?
44:25
And there are many that do? I mean, there are many growing
44:29
number of people today who are just like, you know, Democracy
44:32
is a failed experiment. We need to go back to monarchy
44:36
and you know and nationalism you know, free trade needs to go
44:41
away, we need to develop, we need to adopt protectionist
44:44
policies, etc, etc. And so there's no guarantee that
44:49
the system of free trade and liberal democracy that we've
44:53
known over the past, several Generations will continue into
44:56
the future. We actually have to fight for
44:58
that, if that's what we believe in ya and, and to played Was
45:02
Advocate, right? A lot of people would abdicate
45:05
for like, look at how you know, look at how Dubai is doing.
45:08
And look at how these nation states are doing that.
45:13
They don't have democracy. It's totally, it's an absolute
45:16
Mark monarchy, but they are kind of runs and again.
45:19
And again, I remember what you're talking about, El
45:22
Salvador. You look at Dubai.
45:23
It is kind of run like a, like a company, but you can't deny
45:27
that, you know, the, the Emirate of Dubai or Whatever the king or
45:33
the leader. There has brought a tremendous
45:35
amount of prosperity to his people without a liberal
45:38
democracy. So what would your response be
45:40
to that? Yeah, so authoritarian leaders
45:46
always have some sense for what their people want prefer and
45:57
what they will tolerate. As far as exercises of their Or
46:02
the government's power. And so, you know, every
46:07
government there is a dynamic, a push-pull between State and
46:11
Society regardless of, you know, whether it's a democracy or
46:15
monarchy or dictatorship even and so, you know, this is why we
46:21
saw China, finally drop the zero covid policy because the Chinese
46:27
people finally stood up and said absolutely no more of this like
46:32
Enough. You know, they started burning
46:35
the covid detention centers and you know, physically rioting in
46:42
some places holding demonstrations.
46:43
And the government realized that they their other policy
46:49
priorities including the priority of remaining in power
46:52
depended on acquiescing to some of the demands from society.
46:59
So, so every government does this to some extent, the
47:05
question is, you know, Are you as a citizen of these places
47:12
happy with the extent to which you feel represented and heard?
47:18
You know, if you live in a society where, you know, the
47:23
most egregious, abuses of government power eventually
47:26
stopped because the people have to threaten to Riot.
47:30
Chances are your your day-to-day life probably isn't that great.
47:35
And so the promise of representative democracy, Is
47:39
that people can actually have a say in how they are governed on
47:44
a much wider, range of things than under a typical
47:49
authoritarianism Arrangement, but as we've seen in the
47:54
American experiment, this can be very hard to do at scale and so
48:00
often it's most effective for people who want to feel heard
48:06
and feel represented to get involved.
48:09
The local level of their government because they have the
48:12
most potential to have direct impact.
48:16
Their it's much harder to do at the federal level.
48:21
Yeah, yeah. Interesting.
48:24
Interesting. Okay.
48:25
So Natalie, I want to use the, you know, the last, you know,
48:30
the last 15 minutes or so of the podcast to talk about what we
48:35
perceive on, simply Bitcoin and we are slaves to the new cycle.
48:39
We see this every single day. There's not, I don't think
48:41
there's one day that this, this topic has not been brought up.
48:45
I want to talk about Central Bank, digital currencies, of
48:49
course, bitcoiners feel very strongly about them, but my
48:53
concern is, The vast majority of people specifically in developed
49:00
countries. Alex gladstein, you know the
49:02
love though. His book, people that have
49:04
Financial privilege to live in countries that have relatively
49:07
stable, Fiat, currencies relatively low.
49:12
Inflation rates is not that high that people quite understand
49:15
what's going on. And they're just like, okay, you
49:18
know, this this is great. And then I want to ask you about
49:22
a paper that the US Treasury wrote the name of the paper was
49:27
As is called the future of money in payments and it was response
49:30
to an executive order by the abide Administration.
49:34
And in that entire paper, they they mentioned that the future
49:38
of money in the eyes of the US Treasury is stable coins payment
49:43
platforms and cbc's but they never mention Bitcoin.
49:48
So that being said Natalie, why didn't they mention Bitcoin and
49:52
what are your thoughts on cbc's? Sure.
49:56
Yeah, I mean I mean it's it's a tall order to return to expect
50:01
representatives of the state to ever endorsed a stateless
50:07
currency. So again, you know fully par for
50:11
the course expected behavior, on the part of the treasury CBD
50:17
c-czar. I mean, the current Financial
50:25
system or the current dollar system.
50:27
Let's say that is already fully digitized and fully surveilled.
50:33
So you know as I was saying before like anybody who is
50:37
transacting in u.s. dollars generally has to go through the
50:41
US banking system. And that information is fully am
50:48
lky see, it's shared with you know virtually all police.
50:54
He's in every state around the world because, you know, these
50:58
these agencies all share information with each other.
51:02
So there's really nothing private that you can do.
51:06
If you're transacting with dollars today, the main impetus
51:12
is I Can See For A cbgc in the United States.
51:16
Is that China's doing it? And there is a whole host of us
51:22
politicians, who leave that we have to imitate the, the other
51:28
government. Let's, let's even say enemy
51:31
government. Because for many of these
51:32
people, these politicians, they see China as an enemy, we have
51:37
to imitate our enemy in order to beat them.
51:40
Well, let me let me tell you as, as an entrepreneur, as an
51:46
American and as a human being, you don't win by imitating.
51:50
You don't tape your way into Power and Leadership.
51:57
So, you know, the the US government if it does, in fact,
52:02
pursue a CBC will literally be owning itself and and destroying
52:10
Liberty in the process. What remains of Liberty, which
52:13
is the anonymous Bearer asset that is physical cash.
52:19
And so that's really the other purpose of the CBD.
52:22
See, so, on the one hand, And you know, we're foaming into
52:25
becoming China on the other, we want information about, you
52:31
know, everything that you're spending 50 cents on.
52:35
We want to tax it, we want to surveil it.
52:38
We want to incentivize it or D, incentivize it prohibit it or
52:44
even require it make it mandatory blah blah blah.
52:48
So by doing away with the Last Vestige of anonymous
52:52
transacting, which is Cash that sort of completes the circle of
52:59
financial surveillance, and there will not be a CDC that
53:03
doesn't afford this regardless of what some some proponents say
53:08
that. No, we can do like a freedom
53:10
version in America impossible, that that is politically
53:15
impossible and technologically infeasible.
53:17
So then the question becomes is Is Bitcoin or is the community
53:27
of bitcoiners ready to build the financial infrastructure that
53:32
serves as a meaningful alternative to physical cash.
53:36
Bitcoin has to become the anonymous, digital bear asset
53:41
that physical cash was absolutely.
53:46
And so and I agree with you. And here's the thing where I
53:50
think I'm feeling a little bit more hope.
53:54
And you know, the you're talking about the Bitcoin Embassy, the
53:57
El Salvador in Bitcoin Embassy specifically in Texas, I see, I
54:01
see States, whether you know, you saw this know Mississippi
54:06
passing a law, that would make it very friendly for Bitcoin,
54:09
miners the law and Wyoming which I absolutely loved which we
54:13
would protect private keys. I see individual states adopting
54:18
a Bitcoin standard way before the federal government.
54:24
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
54:27
This is this is a time for states to lead, you know, like
54:31
we were talking about earlier when there's gridlock or in
54:35
action at the federal level, powered valves to the states.
54:38
So, States really have the opportunity to differentiate
54:41
themselves right now. The problem with any policy
54:48
driven approach here is that in general elected officials are
54:55
masters of the art of the law, which is the coercive violence
55:01
of the state and often. You know, they have one tool and
55:06
that is making new laws. And so I would suggest that we
55:12
actually don't need new laws or many new laws to accommodate the
55:18
widespread day-to-day use of Bitcoin.
55:22
I think the American Constitution, amply lays the
55:28
groundwork for Freedom, money to exist, anywhere in the United
55:32
States. And so the challenge is going to
55:36
be the more laws you make. The more you can inadvertently
55:42
make certain behaviors illegal that you didn't anticipate
55:47
before. Like if you make a law that says
55:51
you know, bit Coins great. We love Bitcoin now suddenly
55:55
like every currency that people want to use like the questions
55:59
going to be do we need a new law for every single form of money
56:04
that people want to use? Like if you if you pass a law at
56:08
the state's level that says you know we have freedom of speech.
56:13
Well that's already in the Federal Constitution.
56:16
So are you suggesting that that maybe there are other rights
56:23
That need to be enshrined by State Statute and so law is, I'm
56:29
not a lawyer I think part of part of the problem with
56:34
candidly the situation we're in politically is that we have had
56:38
lawyers leading us politically for generations and they know
56:45
how to make laws and interpret laws.
56:48
But what if you know we could we could take a drastic Take step
56:52
back and, and just start calling, you know, some of the
56:56
complexity of our legal system saying, maybe we don't need
57:00
these laws over determining, these micro areas of behavior
57:04
that are already covered by these other laws that are more
57:10
fundamental or primary. So I think that's a much broader
57:15
longer-term project of political reform that we need to undertake
57:19
is a country 100%. And I think And I think that as
57:24
more people take Bitcoin into self custody I never forget
57:28
Kaiser's quote, right? I'm assuming you saw Keyser and
57:30
Texas. Yeah, yeah.
57:32
So you know you don't change Bitcoin, Bitcoin changes you and
57:36
I think as more people take personal responsibility take
57:39
self custody of their wealth of which they're Outsourcing
57:42
currently. I think their interpretation or
57:45
how they look at their relationship between the states
57:48
and the individual to State and the government.
57:51
I mean the individual and The government is going to change
57:54
and I think that that makes me optimistic to see actual, you
57:59
know, actual change. But so I take it, you're not a
58:04
fan of legal tender laws, you know, any law can potentially
58:12
serve a purpose in a particular context but money like speaking
58:20
sociologically. Money has only ever been created
58:27
by states by governments over the past few thousand years for
58:34
the vast majority of human history.
58:35
Money was an emergent phenomenon.
58:38
It was, you know, people using Collectibles things of value and
58:45
establishing these objects as mediums of exchange.
58:50
And even when State started issuing money, Any, they were by
58:54
no means the only issuers of units of account and medium of
59:00
exchange. So, most people didn't actually
59:03
have access to physical money, like, silver or gold coins.
59:07
It was very rare for people to have that.
59:09
And so what did like ordinary villagers?
59:12
You know, in Europe, for example, used to keep track of
59:15
credits and debits. Well, Ledger's, you know that
59:19
they had like sticks or like, Rocks where they would Notch,
59:24
you know, debits and credits. And then that eventually evolved
59:30
into a double entry bookkeeping and a practice of accounting,
59:36
which is still like The Ledger is actually the most fundamental
59:39
unit of money and Ledger's are not created by this by a state
59:45
like some mythical or state like anybody can create a ledger and
59:48
so money is actually a bottom-up social phenomenon.
59:52
You very much like language, you know, your government doesn't
59:55
teach you language, you learn language in community in your
59:59
family and in, you know, your community of others.
1:00:03
And so it's important that even if we're temporarily using a
1:00:08
top-down social technology like a legal tender law, that we
1:00:13
don't confuse that law for some like Universal immutable law of
1:00:19
nature, you know. And It makes absolute sense, but
1:00:24
again it makes sense to bitcoiners really bitcoiners.
1:00:26
It's so obvious. And I think that if you try to
1:00:29
live on a Bitcoin standard in the United States, the tax
1:00:34
implications, I think is like the the biggest pain in the ass
1:00:37
because you have to, you know, you have to do the accounting
1:00:39
and you have to like if I sell this, you know, what's going on?
1:00:43
There's a capital gains or there's a loss, but do you think
1:00:47
that that is the type of law that will just naturally
1:00:50
dissipate as just more More people adopt because in the way
1:00:54
that I would compare it is, it's like it's like as if you're
1:00:57
trying to regulate the internet, you know, you can only do so
1:01:01
much but the internet is going to do what the internet is going
1:01:05
to do and even in even with the the great firewall in China,
1:01:09
right? You know, it's country, they
1:01:10
could sensor as much as they want, but it still seems that
1:01:14
some type of information still seeps through, right?
1:01:18
So what's your perspective on that?
1:01:21
Yeah, so I mean people will continue to generate new forms
1:01:26
of currency is as long as there is Human Society.
1:01:31
The potential value of legal tender laws is in a social
1:01:37
context before the internet. Where, you know, there were
1:01:41
literally hundreds of different forms of money in the United
1:01:44
States. Like people, you know, in one
1:01:48
neighborhood could used a different form.
1:01:50
Money than they did in another neighborhood.
1:01:53
And so there is value in standardization because
1:01:58
standardization creates efficiency.
1:02:00
You know, if I go from Texas to Missouri, I know that the money
1:02:03
I'm bringing with me is still good in Missouri because it's
1:02:07
the law. So, there is some benefit in
1:02:11
standardization, which can also be a kind of centralization.
1:02:17
The problem is that centralization tends to take
1:02:20
Conn self-perpetuating logic, particularly where a cruise
1:02:26
power to people people, you know, who are responsible for
1:02:31
one area of centralization or standardization, then want to be
1:02:36
responsible for more areas. And so, the state, you know, go
1:02:42
quickly goes from an administrative like helper to
1:02:48
human communities. To This heavy layer that sucks
1:02:54
up more and more resources and that is more and more
1:02:56
complicated to navigate and maintain and at that point you
1:03:01
know it tends to collapse and the there's a decentralizing
1:03:06
correction in human societies and so you know I think that
1:03:11
legal tender laws you know they may or may not continue to be
1:03:15
useful. If we have an information
1:03:18
economy an internet and and lightning network based economy
1:03:23
where you know, FX exchanges are instantaneous their possible
1:03:29
from from virtually any currency into any other currency in any
1:03:33
jurisdiction at that point, you know, it almost doesn't matter
1:03:37
whether something is or isn't legal tender, because everything
1:03:41
is so quickly translatable So, and just to wrap it up Natalie
1:03:49
and this was been a very fascinating conversation.
1:03:52
Specifically what, you know, what really blew my mind tonight
1:03:56
was how you went in depth into the definition of capitalism and
1:04:03
what the different forms of capitalism you define to.
1:04:06
And I thought that was really interesting.
1:04:08
Now from your Vantage Point. What do you think?
1:04:11
Are the largest obstacle specifically for Hyper big
1:04:17
quantization or you know, that's what we all want.
1:04:19
Because we're Bitcoin is at the end of the day, what are the
1:04:22
biggest obstacles that you foresee within this within this
1:04:27
decade? You know until 2030?
1:04:30
I think it's going to be the Fiat on ramps and off ramps.
1:04:33
That's where they're going to try to come for us.
1:04:36
And that's where we need to Simply build Alternatives that
1:04:41
they can't take down. Yeah.
1:04:44
And in and what makes you say it's that specific are you
1:04:48
looking at the laws that were, you know, the the laws of the
1:04:52
mica laws in Europe, right? Or they're literally saying any
1:04:56
transaction over 1,000 has to be reported, there's Rumblings that
1:05:00
they want to make. They want to make use their
1:05:04
terms, not mine Uhn Uhn hosted wallets or on hosted addresses,
1:05:09
I think they turned the change in terminology and everything
1:05:11
illegal or they want to kyc it. Is that what you're referring
1:05:15
to? Yes.
1:05:17
So there are going to be continual attempts to, to use
1:05:25
the capabilities of digital Technologies, to remove all of
1:05:32
the self sovereignty and freedoms that people used to
1:05:36
enjoy, holding physical wallets and physical cash.
1:05:40
So, you know, these laws, they're going to keep coming,
1:05:43
just like just like the laws. To to require software companies
1:05:51
to introduce exceptional access for law enforcement, you know to
1:05:56
encrypted products like every few years you know some new
1:06:01
Congressman or woman you know at the federal level sometimes even
1:06:07
at the state level will introduce a bill to require
1:06:09
exceptional access which would, you know, break encryption for
1:06:13
everyone. So Is now kind of in the same
1:06:18
fight where the state is going to continuously, try to get rid
1:06:23
of any self Sovereign element to the use of this currency.
1:06:28
And that involves certainly how you hold your Bitcoin.
1:06:32
So, you know, whether you self host it, but it also involves
1:06:36
your freedom to freely exchange that Bitcoin into other forms of
1:06:41
value. And so, because Fiat, These are
1:06:46
so heavily politicized and they're controlled by the states
1:06:50
that issue them. They're going to create all
1:06:52
kinds of Choke points to basically make Bitcoin unusable
1:06:56
in various jurisdictions. Yeah I see that as well.
1:07:00
And then there's the the social attack on the you know, Bitcoin
1:07:04
mining zenergy uses. Well I do see that as the to the
1:07:09
to attack vectors. For sure Natalie it's been a
1:07:13
pleasure. Thank you so much for Joining us
1:07:16
today on simply Bitcoin IRL. Why don't you tell everybody
1:07:20
where they can find you online? Sure.
1:07:24
So you can find me on Twitter at and smolenski, also, @tx,
1:07:29
Bitcoin, foundation.org. And you can also just go to the
1:07:34
website and learn more about what we're up to at the
1:07:36
foundation, we survive on donations from bitcoiners.
1:07:41
So, if you believe that this kind of obsessive nerdery is
1:07:46
needed to advance our cause throw us a few SATs, we really
1:07:51
appreciate it. Solutely heard that guys.
1:07:54
Take agency. Take action.
1:07:56
This is what you do. Contribute to the good fight,
1:07:58
the separation of money and state.
1:08:00
Not only thank you. Thank you so much for coming on
1:08:03
today. I ask you, please hang out and
1:08:06
backstage. There's about a 30 second delay
1:08:08
while I wrap this up, guys. Thank you so much.
1:08:11
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1:08:33
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