Latest / The You Project / #2067 Fraudulent Scumbags - Prof. Stacey Wood

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#2067 Fraudulent Scumbags - Prof. Stacey Wood · The You Project

0:00
Speaker 1: I'll get a team. Welcome to another installing the You Project.
0:02
Speaker 1: Tiffany An Cook's joining me, the newly matched up cook
0:09
Speaker 1: who's in a relationship like a grown up. Just quickly
0:12
Speaker 1: before we go to the good professor, how are you
0:15
Speaker 1: now that you've publicly been ouded by me? Are you
0:17
Speaker 1: all right? Have you? If you're stringing a few words together?
0:20
Speaker 2: Now? A big twenty four hours half, it's been a
0:23
Speaker 2: big twenty four hours.
0:25
Speaker 1: Oh, look at you like a grown up in a
0:27
Speaker 1: relationship with another grown up. That's a big step for you.
0:31
Speaker 2: It's a very big step. If only Stacy knew what
0:34
Speaker 2: a big step it was.
0:36
Speaker 1: You might have to well, doctor Stacy. Professor Stacy is
0:39
Speaker 1: here and she's a clinical psychologist, and if anyone need
0:42
Speaker 1: one needs one, it could be you, Professor Stacy would
0:47
Speaker 1: welcome to the You Project. How are you?
0:49
Speaker 2: I'm great, it's great to be here.
0:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we're very happy to meet you and have
0:55
Speaker 1: a chat with you. Just to fill you in. Tiffany
0:58
Speaker 1: An Cook, my able assistant over there. It is just
1:02
Speaker 1: after rejecting all men and all possibilities of a relationship.
1:07
Speaker 1: But oh, a decade, if a decade more, She's fallen
1:15
Speaker 1: in love unexpectedly, and she's fallen in love and she
1:20
Speaker 1: met the person she's fallen in love with on this
1:24
Speaker 1: very podcast. So that is hilarious. So it's been a
1:27
Speaker 1: groundbreaking few days here at the U Project. I feel like, yeah, yeah,
1:36
Speaker 1: So anyway, you didn't need to know that, but I
1:38
Speaker 1: thought i'd give you context. Tell us, tell my listeners,
1:43
Speaker 1: our listeners, and where you are? Where do we find
1:48
Speaker 1: you on this fine? What's a morning here in Australia,
1:50
Speaker 1: but I think it's evening over there.
1:53
Speaker 2: I'm in Los Angeles and it's about one o'clock in
1:56
Speaker 2: the afternoon.
1:57
Speaker 1: Okay, good yup. Now, can you, rather than me read,
2:00
Speaker 1: rather than may colnkily read some bio off the interwebs,
2:04
Speaker 1: can you tell my audience a bit about you, who
2:06
Speaker 1: you are, what you do, just in terms of your
2:08
Speaker 1: current work and obsession? Do we say obsessional, fascination or curiosity.
2:14
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's an insection of all three.
2:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's I think that's accurate. So I'm a professor.
2:20
Speaker 2: I teach psychology and neuroscience at Scripts College in Claremont,
2:25
Speaker 2: and you know, for a good ten years I've worked
2:28
Speaker 2: one day a week at an elder abuse forensic center
2:32
Speaker 2: and as a psychologist doing assessments, working out in the field,
2:37
Speaker 2: working with law enforcement, and I just was seeing over
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Speaker 2: and over again scam victims for aud victims, and trying
2:47
Speaker 2: to make sense of that. As a psychologist, I started,
2:50
Speaker 2: I shifted my program of research from decision making generally
2:55
Speaker 2: you know, older people, to trying to understand this phenomenon.
3:01
Speaker 2: So I really have been kind of obsessed with it,
3:05
Speaker 2: better understanding the psychology why people are vulnerable, what the
3:10
Speaker 2: process is once they're kind of on the hook, how
3:13
Speaker 2: it impacts them, and the like. And I end up
3:18
Speaker 2: testifying in court and I think about this a lot.
3:23
Speaker 1: I'm sure you do. Now. I know there's been probably
3:27
Speaker 1: a million revelations, not literally but metaphorically, a million revelations
3:32
Speaker 1: and kind of light bulb moments for you tell us
3:35
Speaker 1: about something that's kind of really got your attention or
3:39
Speaker 1: really maybe even surprised you coming out of your research
3:44
Speaker 1: and you're kind of diving into this.
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Speaker 2: Something that's continued to interest me is the process by
3:52
Speaker 2: which a scammer can take someone who's you know, maybe
3:56
Speaker 2: a little lonely, maybe a little depressed, maybe you know,
4:01
Speaker 2: has some vulnerability and take them to a point where
4:05
Speaker 2: if you were to meet them, you would be sure
4:08
Speaker 2: they were delusional.
4:10
Speaker 1: Yeah right, you know.
4:11
Speaker 2: So I have a case right now where the family
4:15
Speaker 2: is like, please help us keep our family member from
4:19
Speaker 2: getting on a plane and flying to Ghana right right,
4:24
Speaker 2: Like there's there's so much evidence it's a scam. It's
4:27
Speaker 2: so risky and this is.
4:32
Speaker 1: Sorry.
4:34
Speaker 2: Isn't a person that has some mental health history per se?
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Speaker 1: Right? M Like we've we've heard of I mean, we
4:43
Speaker 1: see that play out over here as well. Of course
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Speaker 1: it happens everywhere, but where somebody in inverted commas forms
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Speaker 1: a relationship with a person and the person's oh no, no,
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Speaker 1: I know there are scams, but he's not that. You know,
5:00
Speaker 1: he's not that or she's not that, and this is
5:02
Speaker 1: different and I know that that happens, but that's not
5:04
Speaker 1: what's happening here. And their year we've spoken, I've seen
5:08
Speaker 1: photos of their family or I've seen you know, and
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Speaker 1: he or she sent me this and that, and I
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Speaker 1: know you're worried, but you don't. It's like they are
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Speaker 1: fully down the rabbit hole, aren't they. They totally in
5:20
Speaker 1: their mind. It's almost like their family becomes the enemy
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Speaker 1: and who are trying to derail their happiness.
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Speaker 2: Right, Oh, that's absolutely right. Yeah, yeah, and the scammers
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Speaker 2: are so good about putting that wedge in. You know,
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Speaker 2: it's the victim and the family using these tactics to
5:40
Speaker 2: keep pushing them away. Yeah, exactly.
5:42
Speaker 1: And what's the underlying psychology there is that just I'm
5:47
Speaker 1: super lonely. Someone's giving me attention, someone's giving me affection
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Speaker 1: or albeit manufactured, but to me, the experience is real.
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Speaker 1: Is that that feeling that some kind of void.
6:01
Speaker 2: So if we're if we're talking about like a romance scam, uh,
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Speaker 2: you know, there's there's not a lot of literature suggesting
6:08
Speaker 2: a prototype. It's it's usually something more like wanting a relationship,
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Speaker 2: you know, maybe telling people you know, I think I'm ready,
6:19
Speaker 2: I'm ready to meet the one, yes, you know, like Tiffany,
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Speaker 2: and and then putting themselves on dating sites, right, which
6:31
Speaker 2: is totally a legitimate step you know, to take when
6:34
Speaker 2: you're ready to have a relationship, and then not very
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Speaker 2: good at disserting red flags right away. So you know,
6:43
Speaker 2: some red flags or if you're like a guy in
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Speaker 2: your fifties and the woman is thirty or younger and
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Speaker 2: very attractive. That's I'm sorry to say, that's probably a
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Speaker 2: red flag.
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Speaker 1: Oh my god, I wish I had it. Why didn't
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Speaker 1: we do this yesterday? That's yes, yeah, I get it. Tiffy,
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Speaker 1: you sure that you're tiff You sure that your bloke's not? AI?
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Speaker 1: Is sure he's not? Have you actually met him in person?
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Speaker 2: I think I might be I might have been scammed.
7:16
Speaker 1: You could have been scammed. Maybe the guy that you
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Speaker 1: met is a bloody a cyborg is a biological kind
7:22
Speaker 1: of technological interface. That's just very convincing. Sorry, prof speaking
7:29
Speaker 1: of AI. Professor that the scammers must be rubbing their
7:34
Speaker 1: hands together with the rapid evolution of what can be
7:38
Speaker 1: done now with.
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Speaker 2: AI, Yeah, it's it's a great tool for them. Sadly,
7:46
Speaker 2: you know, he used to be like, if you were
7:49
Speaker 2: talking to a bond, you could tell like within a
7:52
Speaker 2: few exchanges, right, I mean pretty recently, yes, And now
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Speaker 2: like if you're doing like a cuss to more service,
8:00
Speaker 2: like the tenor of the voice, it's much more. If
8:05
Speaker 2: you like, if you're speaking to a bot, it can
8:07
Speaker 2: take my experience, many more exchanges before you're like, oh
8:11
Speaker 2: my god, this isn't even a person. Yes, yes, you know,
8:16
Speaker 2: they've cracked down on the spelling mistakes and the bad grammar.
8:20
Speaker 2: The messaging, the communication is much better. And yeah, I
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Speaker 2: mean it's just every way to target youse social media, texting, email, phones,
8:34
Speaker 2: either using AI.
8:36
Speaker 1: It's so funny you firstly, do you use I mean yourself,
8:40
Speaker 1: do you use II data Day? Do you use whatever
8:43
Speaker 1: che apt or Claude or any of those, either professionally
8:47
Speaker 1: or personally.
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Speaker 2: You know, I've just started playing with it myself. Honestly,
8:51
Speaker 2: I was a little weary of it as a professor,
8:53
Speaker 2: but I'm curious about it too.
8:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's sometimes okay, So this morning, so it's what
9:03
Speaker 1: is It's eight point fifteen here, and I was walking
9:06
Speaker 1: to the cafe, which is a six minute walk, and
9:09
Speaker 1: I jumped in to chat GPT, just in audio mode,
9:14
Speaker 1: and I said, tell me about professor Stacy Would and
9:18
Speaker 1: it just started telling me about you. I'm like cool,
9:20
Speaker 1: And then I asked a few questions and it gave
9:22
Speaker 1: me some answers about you, and like what is her
9:25
Speaker 1: main focus of her research? And like I'd already I'd
9:29
Speaker 1: already looked at you yesterday and done a little bit
9:31
Speaker 1: of reading and researching, but just as a and it's
9:35
Speaker 1: it's so interesting where I'm like, and I go, if
9:40
Speaker 1: you were interviewing and I don't have any interview questions
9:44
Speaker 1: in front of me, clearly I just ramble on. I said,
9:46
Speaker 1: but if you're interviewing Stacy, what would you ask her?
9:49
Speaker 1: And it just goes this bang bang bang, and it's
9:52
Speaker 1: like there's no delay and the questions are great, and
9:55
Speaker 1: it's specific to you, and you know, while oh, you're
10:00
Speaker 1: not nobody, of course, it's not like you have a
10:02
Speaker 1: world famous profile, right, you know what I mean. And
10:06
Speaker 1: it's just it knows all about you, and it's like, well,
10:09
Speaker 1: she's this, and she's that, and she works here and
10:11
Speaker 1: she's a professor of this and she's a clinical psychology
10:14
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh my this it is It is
10:18
Speaker 1: hard to resist in that use the right way. I
10:21
Speaker 1: underline that it's a very helpful resource.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that's of course chilling. And I did a
10:30
Speaker 2: similar thing about you this morning when I went for
10:33
Speaker 2: a walk. No, I didn't use it, but that's a
10:38
Speaker 2: great idea. I just listened to some snippets from some
10:41
Speaker 2: of your Paws podcast to just get a sense of
10:44
Speaker 2: your style and your you know the topics that are covered,
10:48
Speaker 2: but your waste seems a lot more efficient.
10:51
Speaker 1: TIF did you hear that I have a style? Did
10:53
Speaker 1: you hear that I'm a not style? I have a style?
11:05
Speaker 1: So I might be wrong in assuming this. Well, actually
11:08
Speaker 1: I know the answer to this because I did hear
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Speaker 1: you in an interview. But I would have assumed that
11:14
Speaker 1: older people got scammed the most. But that's not always true.
11:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, correct, I would say when I was starting doing
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Speaker 2: this work like ten years ago, it was definitely true,
11:28
Speaker 2: and the kind of federal statistics in the US were
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Speaker 2: bearing it out. And then after twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen,
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Speaker 2: you know, the social media you know, it's not a coincident. Yeah,
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Speaker 2: it's like the scammers, don't They like older people because
11:43
Speaker 2: they tend to have more money, so they're targeted more.
11:48
Speaker 2: But they're happy to scam younger people. And it was
11:50
Speaker 2: easier to reach people, you know, on social media, and
11:56
Speaker 2: so the scams look a little different. You know, younger
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Speaker 2: adults tend to be more like us, like a shopping scam, Yes,
12:04
Speaker 2: investment scams. Have you heard the term pig butchering?
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Speaker 1: No, no, tell us about that.
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Speaker 2: It's a horrible scam, but it is a crypto scam
12:15
Speaker 2: where you're approached maybe on LinkedIn or some job board
12:19
Speaker 2: or some kind of legitimate site, and you know, befriended
12:24
Speaker 2: and then it's not necessarily even a romance. It's more like,
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Speaker 2: you know, we have an investment group, and you can
12:30
Speaker 2: see our gains, and they start to like share, you know,
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Speaker 2: screenshots of the money they're making, and they help that
12:38
Speaker 2: victims set up like a fake wallet. It looks real,
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Speaker 2: it looks like coinbase, it's very sophisticated or it's similar,
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Speaker 2: and they show them getting gains and when the scammers
12:49
Speaker 2: think they've gotten everything they can, they just disappear. Yeah,
12:53
Speaker 2: and they but once once it's fat enough and if
12:57
Speaker 2: you try to get money out, it's like, oh, you
13:00
Speaker 2: have so many capital gains, you have to pay this
13:01
Speaker 2: taxes first before we can release it. And then they
13:04
Speaker 2: get more money. So that is more like people that
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Speaker 2: are younger, like probably like thirties, forties, fifties, because they
13:13
Speaker 2: have to have money, but also they're interested in crypto
13:17
Speaker 2: and they're online a lot, so the scammers have adapted
13:21
Speaker 2: to target you know, they'll target teenagers and gaming, you know,
13:25
Speaker 2: discord type approaches. They are, they're everywhere, so they just
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Speaker 2: curate the scam based on the demographics they're targeting.
13:35
Speaker 1: Now, so I know there's no single like with anything,
13:39
Speaker 1: there's no single intervention or pill or solution. But but
13:45
Speaker 1: what the what's on the table as things that can
13:48
Speaker 1: help us, that protect ourselves, will protect people that we love.
13:54
Speaker 2: So for older people, like if you have parents, adult
14:00
Speaker 2: children and parents having some conversations about safeguards here in
14:06
Speaker 2: the US, you can be added as like a trusted
14:08
Speaker 2: other to bank accounts, not not with control, but just
14:13
Speaker 2: being able to you know, agreeing ahead of time to
14:17
Speaker 2: be alerted of suspicious transactions. So that's yeah, And it's
14:22
Speaker 2: again it's not when the we were talking about, when
14:25
Speaker 2: the person's in the throes of it, it's it's almost
14:28
Speaker 2: impossible to get them to agree to have that kind
14:31
Speaker 2: of help. But if you can get to them, you know,
14:33
Speaker 2: if you just have a conversation and say, look, let's
14:38
Speaker 2: let's talk about this and put some safeguards in place.
14:42
Speaker 2: I think structural changes, like I'd love to see big platforms,
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Speaker 2: meta et cetera, indeed crack down more on on scammers
14:53
Speaker 2: or improve their algorithms for detecting scams. I think it's
14:58
Speaker 2: it's hard for the human brain now to discern legitimate
15:02
Speaker 2: from illegitimate messaging. Yeah, so that would be another kind
15:09
Speaker 2: of structural recommendation. It is happening in the UK. They
15:13
Speaker 2: are they are moving, They have moved forward with some
15:17
Speaker 2: legislation around that. In the US there's been more of
15:21
Speaker 2: a focus on trying to get the banks to be
15:23
Speaker 2: better at identifying suspicious transactions. Yes, at the individual level,
15:32
Speaker 2: you know, like you know kids in school financial literacy,
15:36
Speaker 2: you could have some add some scam literacy to that.
15:40
Speaker 1: Yeah. My parents are eighty six and uh, her mum
15:45
Speaker 1: rings me every day with something she's like. And yesterday
15:49
Speaker 1: it was like her phone wanted to update something and
15:54
Speaker 1: I'm like, what are the what does it say? And
15:57
Speaker 1: she says it says update now or lighter And I said, well,
16:00
Speaker 1: that's probably fine, I said, but just press later and
16:04
Speaker 1: I'll see. I'm seeing her in a couple of days,
16:06
Speaker 1: I said, when I get there, old, I'll have a
16:08
Speaker 1: look at and I'll do what needs to be done.
16:10
Speaker 1: But it's like, in a way, I'm glad they're technically
16:16
Speaker 1: or technologically inept because they don't have social media, They
16:21
Speaker 1: don't really have email, they don't know all of their
16:26
Speaker 1: banking and everything is done by me or more accurately, Melissa,
16:30
Speaker 1: who the other highly efficient person who runs my life.
16:35
Speaker 1: So they don't you know, they wouldn't know how to
16:37
Speaker 1: take money out online or buy anything online, and so
16:41
Speaker 1: they really don't get presented with other than the odd
16:45
Speaker 1: thing on my mum's phone, which she you know, she
16:49
Speaker 1: genuinely doesn't. I just go if anything comes, I go.
16:52
Speaker 1: If somebody rings you and you don't know the person
16:56
Speaker 1: and they're telling you you need to do something, I
16:58
Speaker 1: go just hang up, you know, or at the very
17:02
Speaker 1: least and then ring me, and I'll ring that whoever
17:04
Speaker 1: that alleged person is, you know. So it's it's I
17:08
Speaker 1: think sometimes, you know, even though it's almost becoming impossible
17:13
Speaker 1: not to have your toe in technology and the internet
17:17
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five, of course, but for you know,
17:20
Speaker 1: for people who are really really kind of advanced in years,
17:23
Speaker 1: like my mum and dad, it's almost too late to
17:26
Speaker 1: open the door and try and educate them because they
17:29
Speaker 1: just don't well, my mum and dad anyway, they don't
17:32
Speaker 1: even understand the language. It's just overwhelming for them, you know.
17:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, fortunately they have you. Yes, yeah, So,
17:42
Speaker 2: let's comfort with technology can be a risk factor for
17:45
Speaker 2: those that don't have a safeguard.
17:48
Speaker 1: Yeah.
17:49
Speaker 2: A really popular scam was impersonation of Microsoft. So they
17:56
Speaker 2: were sort of online but you know, maybe Facebook and
17:59
Speaker 2: some emailing, and it would be like a pop up
18:03
Speaker 2: that says your computer is compromised, call this number. Yeah, right,
18:08
Speaker 2: and then from there they you know, coach them through
18:11
Speaker 2: all of these you know, confusing steps to fix their computer, move,
18:17
Speaker 2: you know, transfer accounts, and they actually can gain control
18:22
Speaker 2: of the computer if the person follows all the steps. Yeah. Really,
18:27
Speaker 2: but yeah, that's right. I mean so, but also younger,
18:30
Speaker 2: younger adults who are constantly online have more exposure.
18:35
Speaker 1: And also some of these people, now, like I've heard
18:38
Speaker 1: I heard you do an interview on some American show anyway,
18:44
Speaker 1: Dione chatted to you for about six or seven minutes.
18:47
Speaker 1: You were part of a but that we're talking about
18:50
Speaker 1: how articulate and smooth and charismatic and like some of
18:57
Speaker 1: these scammers sound absolutely jit like. It doesn't sound like
19:03
Speaker 1: some educated, uneducated bum sitting in his mum's basement just
19:07
Speaker 1: trying to trying to scam. It sounds like you're actually
19:10
Speaker 1: talking to an employee of an organization who's very polished
19:15
Speaker 1: and very capable. So no wonder people who are not
19:22
Speaker 1: experienced or aware gets scammed because very convincing.
19:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, kind of two points here. The
19:29
Speaker 2: first step is to put you into that more emotional,
19:34
Speaker 2: non deliberative mental state, Right, you're not at your best
19:39
Speaker 2: in terms of I think deliberative reasoning. And then all
19:44
Speaker 2: the queueing or talking about it's really it's out of hand,
19:47
Speaker 2: like it's one of I was going to say one
19:50
Speaker 2: of my favorite scams, but one of the most impressive
19:53
Speaker 2: scams i've I've researched was targeting psychologists. Oh wow, yeah, yeah,
20:00
Speaker 2: And a reporter reached out to me and I looked
20:02
Speaker 2: into a little bit and we did a little peace
20:04
Speaker 2: on it. And then I had like a former student
20:07
Speaker 2: contact me and say, you know, I heard you and
20:10
Speaker 2: this actually happened to me who came out HD wow,
20:15
Speaker 2: and they the scam was that they had missed a
20:21
Speaker 2: summons and they were at risk of losing their license.
20:24
Speaker 2: And you know, you're you're getting a PhD. You know
20:26
Speaker 2: how hard it is, right, It's like you would you
20:30
Speaker 2: would freak out right, and you know, I'd just been
20:32
Speaker 2: working for five years to get this degree. What do
20:35
Speaker 2: I have to do?
20:37
Speaker 1: Yeah?
20:37
Speaker 2: And she said it was so realistic that like her,
20:43
Speaker 2: her husband or family members were in law enforcement. You
20:45
Speaker 2: could hear the sounds of the station and it sounded
20:48
Speaker 2: like just like when our family members were at work
20:51
Speaker 2: the background. Yes, yes, they're that good.
20:56
Speaker 1: I've thought this through Melissa, who works with me. She
21:03
Speaker 1: got one of my papers and put it into I
21:06
Speaker 1: don't even know what the AI is, but put it
21:08
Speaker 1: into this AI program. And the program turns my academic
21:17
Speaker 1: hard to understand, hard to read, highly confusing, you know,
21:21
Speaker 1: psychoacademic jargon for the average person, and it turns it
21:25
Speaker 1: into a podcast between a male in Inverted Commas and
21:28
Speaker 1: a female in Inverted Comma's co host co hosts. So
21:33
Speaker 1: these two people have a chat about my paper in
21:36
Speaker 1: this research coming out of Australia, in this research team
21:38
Speaker 1: and all of this, and it just turns my paper
21:42
Speaker 1: into an interesting conversation about this research that anyone can understand.
21:49
Speaker 1: And it goes for twenty one minutes. And I said
21:52
Speaker 1: it to like twenty of my friends to go here,
21:54
Speaker 1: this will help you understand my research and they're like,
21:58
Speaker 1: what did you send me that two years ago. I'm like, yeah,
22:01
Speaker 1: it's just the stuff that it can produce now and
22:05
Speaker 1: you know, explain what can be confusing or complicated concepts
22:09
Speaker 1: or ideas in a very It wasn't perfect, by the way,
22:14
Speaker 1: but it was it was very good. It was I mean,
22:16
Speaker 1: considering it turns it out in a few minutes. It's
22:21
Speaker 1: it's as we say in Australia, it's bloody unbelievable what
22:24
Speaker 1: they can produce now, Like what can happen?
22:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, Like you know, I have to be
22:33
Speaker 2: looking for students like are they plagiarizing? Are they using
22:36
Speaker 2: ai I to have a suspicious paragraph? And before it
22:39
Speaker 2: would be kind of clumsy, yes, and now I'm like, oh,
22:43
Speaker 2: it's much harder to tell.
22:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think I think that's like I'm at
22:49
Speaker 1: Monash University in Melbourne here in Australia, and I think
22:53
Speaker 1: every you know, Melbourne University, University of New South Wales,
22:57
Speaker 1: Monash where I'm at Deacon, all of the bigger universities
23:00
Speaker 1: in Australia, they're all trying to figure out how to
23:03
Speaker 1: deal with it. And I'm sure every union in the
23:05
Speaker 1: States is the same because it's it's evolving so fast.
23:10
Speaker 1: And I might get in trouble for saying this, but
23:14
Speaker 1: you know, I kind of feel like some of the
23:15
Speaker 1: decision makers at a higher level in my university anyway,
23:19
Speaker 1: they're in their fifties and sixties and they're trying to
23:22
Speaker 1: navigate this space that they don't understand nearly as well
23:25
Speaker 1: as the students, you know, because all the students are
23:30
Speaker 1: so good in this space. And you know, I'm kind
23:35
Speaker 1: of a hybrid because I'm an old guy but I'm
23:37
Speaker 1: also a student. But I think, yeah, trying to navigate
23:41
Speaker 1: this over the next year or two, so people are
23:44
Speaker 1: not coming, people are not getting a PhD in four weeks.
23:48
Speaker 1: Tongue in cheek, but you know, it's like the stuff
23:53
Speaker 1: that it can produce in a short amount of time,
23:55
Speaker 1: which is almost indistinguishable between you know, like an actual
24:01
Speaker 1: paper that's taken and research that stayed. Like my lit review,
24:04
Speaker 1: as you would know, my systematic lit review from start
24:06
Speaker 1: to finish. It took me two and a half years
24:09
Speaker 1: to produce that paper, Like two and half years for
24:13
Speaker 1: one paper, and it's like that could take half a
24:19
Speaker 1: day or an hour using AI that's terrifying to me.
24:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, and as you were saying, like, it's not bad
24:26
Speaker 2: at getting like some big themes to make all the
24:30
Speaker 2: connections or you know, do that correct Mullar level of
24:33
Speaker 2: work that we have to do, you know, in terms
24:35
Speaker 2: of the methodology. But yeah, it is, it is skilled.
24:40
Speaker 1: We've we've got this thing that's just happened here prof
24:44
Speaker 1: in Australia where they've banned social media nationally for kids
24:51
Speaker 1: under sixteen. Have you heard about that?
24:53
Speaker 2: No? No, I had?
24:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah so that When did that come in?
24:57
Speaker 1: Tip a couple of days ago?
24:59
Speaker 2: I think, so, yeah, yeah.
25:01
Speaker 1: So it's what are we it's Thursday here, Yeah, it
25:05
Speaker 1: came in I don't know, like two or three days ago.
25:07
Speaker 1: And so children under sixteen in Australia no social media
25:13
Speaker 1: access and it's it hasn't gone down. Well, let's say
25:20
Speaker 1: that it hasn't been well received. How do they implement
25:26
Speaker 1: that or how do they enforce it? They the kids
25:32
Speaker 1: have got to jump through tif you're probably better at
25:34
Speaker 1: answering this, but they've got to jump through all of
25:36
Speaker 1: these hoops. There's got to be because they're I think
25:40
Speaker 1: their day to birth and they're all that is that
25:42
Speaker 1: in there, Tiff. I don't know how do they.
25:44
Speaker 2: Enflange how I've got no idea how it works, to
25:47
Speaker 2: be honest.
25:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they've got there's a whole lot of stuff
25:51
Speaker 1: in place, and even a lot of parents I should
25:54
Speaker 1: just go I don't know. Prop But the answer is,
25:58
Speaker 1: or part of the issue, is that a lot of
26:01
Speaker 1: parents some parents love it. I'd say sixty seventy percent
26:04
Speaker 1: of their parents like it because they think social media
26:08
Speaker 1: is doing harm to their kids or potentially, but there's probably,
26:12
Speaker 1: I don't know, probably about a third of parents just
26:15
Speaker 1: aren't for it at all. So this has been dominating
26:18
Speaker 1: kind of you know, headlines and discussion for the last
26:22
Speaker 1: few days here in Australia. So but already apparently kids
26:27
Speaker 1: are finding a way to get around it. So I
26:29
Speaker 1: don't know if it's going to be something that sticks,
26:31
Speaker 1: but we'll see.
26:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an interesting experiment. Hard to see the downsides. Yeah,
26:39
Speaker 2: but you know, in California, in the last couple of years,
26:44
Speaker 2: they banned cell phones during the school day, right, and
26:48
Speaker 2: as a parent of three kids, my youngest was still
26:52
Speaker 2: in high school, I thought that was fantastic.
26:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't think it's the worst thing.
26:58
Speaker 1: That's that's for sure. I don't. I mean, it's a bittersweet,
27:01
Speaker 1: I think, because phones and that kind of tech can
27:03
Speaker 1: be used the right way amazingly helpful and practical resources.
27:09
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, you know, the opposite of
27:12
Speaker 1: all of that. What's what's got your interest at the
27:17
Speaker 1: moment looking forward? Is there something new on the horizon
27:20
Speaker 1: for you, some new area of fraud or some other
27:24
Speaker 1: topic that's fascinating you.
27:28
Speaker 2: Something I've been thinking about recently has been comparing the
27:35
Speaker 2: thinking and belief structures of individuals with conspiracy theories.
27:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, to some of my.
27:41
Speaker 2: Chronic compliance scam victims, you know, yeah, just like how
27:48
Speaker 2: it's reinforced, how it gets developed. You know, what kind
27:53
Speaker 2: of psychological interventions could you even use. Yes, you're different
27:57
Speaker 2: stages of development too to help you know, scam victims,
28:03
Speaker 2: you're deep programmed to some degree. So I've been reading
28:07
Speaker 2: a little bit more about conspiracy theories and the type
28:11
Speaker 2: of cognitive errors that individuals that tend to get into,
28:15
Speaker 2: you know, kind of deep conspiracy territory tend to show.
28:21
Speaker 1: Are there any trites that predispose people to be more
28:25
Speaker 1: susceptible to scams or conspiracy theories that that could be
28:33
Speaker 1: problematic for them.
28:36
Speaker 2: Well, well, one area of work that's pretty I think,
28:40
Speaker 2: pretty interesting is Gordon Pennycook is a social psychologist that's
28:45
Speaker 2: been studying this phenomenon where people endorse pseudo profound statements.
28:52
Speaker 2: So he developed a scale of statements that really are
28:55
Speaker 2: there b s. It's like, uh, the world's spins on
29:00
Speaker 2: abstract beauty? Do you think that's around?
29:08
Speaker 1: I don't know what, I don't know what it means.
29:10
Speaker 1: It might be a nice metaphor yeah, you.
29:13
Speaker 2: Know, And so there are kind of statements like that,
29:15
Speaker 2: like inspirational statements, and he's found that individuals that have
29:20
Speaker 2: endorse these at a high level of saying that that's
29:23
Speaker 2: profound are more likely to kind of go along with
29:26
Speaker 2: like conspiracy theories in terms of like the tenants or beliefs,
29:30
Speaker 2: and then it just they just tend to comply more.
29:33
Speaker 1: Cognitive Yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:35
Speaker 2: So in my lab we started playing around with the
29:38
Speaker 2: scale with fraud victims and propensity to fraud and we're
29:42
Speaker 2: seeing similar trends.
29:46
Speaker 1: Tell us about some of your work with the police
29:50
Speaker 1: and in the justice system and you get involved in
29:55
Speaker 1: that as well, Yeah.
29:58
Speaker 2: I do and so I, you know, conduct interviews with
30:04
Speaker 2: individuals who may have been the victim of a scam.
30:07
Speaker 2: And in most cases, you know, those cases end up
30:13
Speaker 2: being civil trials, you know, like it could be a
30:16
Speaker 2: broker or like some you know, investor or some Ponzi scheme,
30:21
Speaker 2: and what the victim really wants is their money back, right,
30:25
Speaker 2: So that's that would be a civil litigation here. So
30:29
Speaker 2: I would complete an assessment and look at all the
30:32
Speaker 2: communication between the scammer and the alleged victim and put
30:38
Speaker 2: together reports kind of partly why were they vulnerable, what
30:42
Speaker 2: tactics did the scammer use, and how did it impact them?
30:47
Speaker 2: You know, what psychological effect did it have on them.
30:51
Speaker 2: Criminal cases are more rare, but I do those as well.
30:55
Speaker 2: So that would be those tend to be the elderly victims,
30:59
Speaker 2: you know, that have been to frauded, the DL bring
31:02
Speaker 2: you know, potentially criminal charges against the caregiver, friend, you know,
31:08
Speaker 2: a person in their life that took advantage of them.
31:13
Speaker 1: I want to ask you a random question which seems unrelated,
31:16
Speaker 1: but I think a lot of these people who do this,
31:19
Speaker 1: or perpetrate this fraud and create these scams are probably sociopaths.
31:24
Speaker 1: But what what is the percentage of the population do
31:28
Speaker 1: you think that's sociopathic? Like not necessarily that they want
31:34
Speaker 1: to kill anyone or harm people physically, but they just
31:37
Speaker 1: don't have a moral compass. They just don't care. They
31:41
Speaker 1: just don't have empathy. I feel like it's higher than
31:45
Speaker 1: we think. I feel like it's more than one percent. Huron,
31:50
Speaker 1: every fourth person I meet is a bit that I.
31:53
Speaker 2: Think, and you know, I mean, I guess it's you know,
31:58
Speaker 2: I do see a lot of bad behavior if you're
32:00
Speaker 2: in my work. I agree. Something maybe people don't know though,
32:06
Speaker 2: is for like those third party scammers, the ones you
32:09
Speaker 2: don't really ever meet. Yes, that there's been a trend
32:14
Speaker 2: towards using trafficked workers to man those scam centers, right
32:21
Speaker 2: like in me or Mare and stuff. So I try
32:24
Speaker 2: to remember that I used to sort of enjoy trolling scammers,
32:29
Speaker 2: like keeping them on the phone or you know, messing
32:31
Speaker 2: with them a little bit. But now I'm a little
32:35
Speaker 2: more aware that they may be themselves a victim of
32:38
Speaker 2: some type. But yeah, it takes a certain personality to
32:42
Speaker 2: be willing to take all of someone else's money.
32:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think I never thought about the people
32:52
Speaker 1: who are making those coals being basically, you know, poppets
32:57
Speaker 1: being controlled by somebody else, and then themselves being in
33:01
Speaker 1: a way victims or being used. What what do you
33:06
Speaker 1: find most fascinating about. I don't know, Like I'm very
33:12
Speaker 1: very interested in the way that we perceive and process
33:15
Speaker 1: and experience the world, Like there's the thing that's going on,
33:18
Speaker 1: and then there's our story about the thing that's going on,
33:22
Speaker 1: the way that people, like some people seem to be
33:26
Speaker 1: very easily drawn into these things, some people not so much.
33:29
Speaker 1: Some people are not very wary. Some people are completely
33:32
Speaker 1: paranoid and will never do anything. Is that is that
33:36
Speaker 1: a is that a cognitive default setting? Is that just
33:40
Speaker 1: how we're wired, or is that something that's like a
33:44
Speaker 1: byproduct of where we've been and what we've seen and
33:47
Speaker 1: what we've been involved in.
33:49
Speaker 2: I think I'm going to ask you just see a
33:51
Speaker 2: little bit more about that.
33:55
Speaker 1: I feel like some people. I just feel like some
33:58
Speaker 1: people are really gullible and vulnerable, and they naturally believe
34:05
Speaker 1: like I'm naturally more skeptical. I don't don't like I
34:10
Speaker 1: trust people very slowly. That doesn't mean I think everybody's
34:14
Speaker 1: a scammer or everybody's bad. I don't think that at all,
34:18
Speaker 1: but it just my default setting is defense, like not
34:24
Speaker 1: you know, it's like, I'll believe you when I know
34:26
Speaker 1: that you're believable, and I'll trust you when I know
34:29
Speaker 1: that you're trustworthy. Now, I don't operate on the assumption
34:32
Speaker 1: that you're a fraud or that you're a scammer. I
34:35
Speaker 1: don't do that at all. But I'm just almost indifferent
34:38
Speaker 1: until I find out Whereas I feel like there are
34:41
Speaker 1: some some people like I even say to my audiences
34:45
Speaker 1: when I'm doing presentations or lecturing or whatever, I don't
34:48
Speaker 1: believe me because you like me, just consider what I'm
34:52
Speaker 1: saying and then see, if you know, maybe do some
34:55
Speaker 1: more investigating or research. I might give you an idea
34:57
Speaker 1: or a thought or a construct or a suggestion, but
35:00
Speaker 1: rather than just go, Craig told me that, therefore that's true,
35:04
Speaker 1: go and kind of find out for yourself. Does that
35:06
Speaker 1: make sense?
35:08
Speaker 2: Yeah? It does. And so you know, I don't know
35:13
Speaker 2: that we've been able to measure that. I actually looked
35:16
Speaker 2: into gullibility a while back, and there's you know, older
35:19
Speaker 2: older adults. Yes, that the older cohorts are more trusting.
35:24
Speaker 2: It was like a generational you know value. You know
35:28
Speaker 2: that in younger generations are less trusting, people tend to
35:32
Speaker 2: be suggestible in areas where they have less knowledge, right, right,
35:39
Speaker 2: And so that's the trick. You know, over confidence is
35:43
Speaker 2: a trait that we see in our research that predicts
35:47
Speaker 2: victimization or complying with our lab based scams. Right, we're
35:52
Speaker 2: not actually victimizing people. But so so that's so I
35:56
Speaker 2: would say, yeah, I'm probably not going to be able
35:58
Speaker 2: to scam you in an inner personal setting then, but
36:01
Speaker 2: you know, maybe an investment scam.
36:05
Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like ironically scammers have some
36:10
Speaker 1: of them seem to have a high level of social
36:15
Speaker 1: and emotional intelligence because their ability to build connection and
36:18
Speaker 1: rapport and trust, which some of them do really quickly,
36:22
Speaker 1: and to metaphorically read the room and know how to
36:26
Speaker 1: lead people, know how to build trust, do all those things.
36:30
Speaker 1: Like that's a that's a very specific kind of intelligence
36:34
Speaker 1: and capacity, you know. So do you think that they
36:38
Speaker 1: target emotion more than they do intelligence?
36:41
Speaker 2: Absolutely?
36:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And so so what's the what's the antidote
36:50
Speaker 1: to that? I guess it's just again doing what we're doing.
36:53
Speaker 1: It's just awareness. It's just talking about it.
36:55
Speaker 2: Is it and having that person that trusted us there,
37:00
Speaker 2: they can get you back more into that analytic mode.
37:06
Speaker 2: I'm sure you've been studying like dual process models. Yeah,
37:10
Speaker 2: in terms of decision making, right, so you want to
37:12
Speaker 2: be more in that deliberative mode. But they're so they're
37:18
Speaker 2: so skilled at like jumping people into that emotional reactive
37:22
Speaker 2: mode for those one off scams. You know, most scams
37:26
Speaker 2: are one off. You know, you screw up and it's done. Yeah,
37:33
Speaker 2: it's actually pretty rare to have these like long cons
37:36
Speaker 2: that those are those they happen of course romance scams
37:40
Speaker 2: and investment scams, but they're a little less common.
37:43
Speaker 1: Do you think that many have asked a few psychologists,
37:46
Speaker 1: but do you think people generally think about how they think? Like,
37:52
Speaker 1: do you think people have a real well, they have
37:55
Speaker 1: any sense of awareness around why do I process the world?
37:58
Speaker 1: Do I that I did? Where did they beliefs come from?
38:00
Speaker 1: Where do these ideas come? Why do I trust or
38:03
Speaker 1: why do I not trust? Like I'm really curious about
38:06
Speaker 1: my mind and the way that you know, I create
38:10
Speaker 1: my own experiences, and I'm really interested about your mind
38:13
Speaker 1: and try to understand your mind, you know, theory of mind,
38:16
Speaker 1: so that I can build connection and rapport. But I
38:18
Speaker 1: feel like a lot of people have a belief. Perhaps
38:22
Speaker 1: they didn't choose that belief, that belief just became part
38:26
Speaker 1: of them as a byproduct of being around certain people
38:30
Speaker 1: or exposed to certain ideas. But yeah, so I guess
38:33
Speaker 1: my long winded question is, do you think that we
38:37
Speaker 1: think about how we think enough, or that we understand
38:40
Speaker 1: our own mind.
38:41
Speaker 2: Enough, you know, in terms of like meta cognition.
38:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, just that metacognitive Why is this my you know,
38:52
Speaker 1: like there's the thing that's happening, and then there's my story.
38:55
Speaker 1: But I think quite often we don't see the distinction
38:57
Speaker 1: between the story and the.
38:59
Speaker 2: Real Oh yeah, I agree. I mean I think it's
39:05
Speaker 2: definitely there's varying degrees of abilities, and as you probably
39:12
Speaker 2: fell into your work, you know, again it relates to confidence.
39:15
Speaker 2: Sort of paradoxically, when you're in an area where you
39:19
Speaker 2: actually don't have a lot of skill, people may overestimate, yeah,
39:25
Speaker 2: the their abilities and insight. And then you know, as
39:28
Speaker 2: you become an expert, you actually become more cautious. Yes, yes,
39:33
Speaker 2: but saying that this will yeah, this is something I
39:36
Speaker 2: can do one hundred percent. You have because you have
39:38
Speaker 2: more data, you know, to make a more accurate prediction.
39:42
Speaker 1: And when when there's something that we believe and we
39:45
Speaker 1: want that thing that we believe to be right, that
39:48
Speaker 1: almost becomes intertwined with our identity. So when you question
39:52
Speaker 1: my belief, you question my identity. So fuck you, do
39:57
Speaker 1: you know what I mean?
39:59
Speaker 2: Yeah? Right, So when you're so, when you're at that stage,
40:04
Speaker 2: there's no there's no you're not looking for evidence that
40:08
Speaker 2: is refuting your claim. Yea, and it becomes an existential threat. Yes,
40:13
Speaker 2: you know, this relationship that you've staked your entire identity
40:18
Speaker 2: and your in future plans on is not real. Yeah,
40:22
Speaker 2: that's a horrible narrative. Great, And that's that's what I
40:27
Speaker 2: feezed when I go out with law enforcement, Like, would
40:30
Speaker 2: you rather believe this person that's calling you telling you
40:33
Speaker 2: all of these you know, wonderful things for me, who
40:37
Speaker 2: you've met one time, who's saying I'm sorry, This has
40:39
Speaker 2: all the hallmarks of the scam.
40:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like when when we believe
40:46
Speaker 1: something and we want that something to be true, I mean,
40:50
Speaker 1: this is no enlightenment for you, But you know that
40:53
Speaker 1: whole confirmation bias where well, now all of a sudden,
40:56
Speaker 1: I live in this ideological echo chamber, and I I'm
41:00
Speaker 1: not open to even thinking about anything else. So I'm
41:04
Speaker 1: not teachable. I can't unlearn. And you know, even with
41:10
Speaker 1: even with something like religion, where there's hundreds, potentially thousands
41:13
Speaker 1: of minor religions anyway, and forget the religious bit for
41:18
Speaker 1: the moment, but just the thinking bit where we think, oh, no,
41:20
Speaker 1: my religion is the one. So I'm also saying all
41:24
Speaker 1: other four thousand minor religions are wrong. We're right. Yet
41:28
Speaker 1: every person in every religion essentially thinks the same thing
41:31
Speaker 1: about all the other religions, you know, where they all
41:35
Speaker 1: live in their own echo chamber of ideology, philosophy, theology,
41:39
Speaker 1: thinking that amongst all of these thousands of theological kind
41:44
Speaker 1: of echo chambers, that they are the one. And even
41:48
Speaker 1: when you think just logically, you go, well, just statistically,
41:52
Speaker 1: is there a chance that we're wrong? I mean, because yeah,
41:56
Speaker 1: still no, no, there's no chance that we're wrong. Like
42:00
Speaker 1: that's that's where our our I don't know, fear or
42:04
Speaker 1: insecurity or whatever definitely overwrites logic.
42:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, and those police are being reinforced, right, you know,
42:11
Speaker 2: in that in that echo chamber community, yes, you know,
42:16
Speaker 2: and so and pushing out the other voices. And that's
42:20
Speaker 2: you know, similar scammers. We will like look at the
42:24
Speaker 2: communication and they might like text their you know victim
42:28
Speaker 2: target dozens of times a day.
42:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, right right, And that that's so interesting because in
42:36
Speaker 1: the mind of the person who's getting those dozens of texts,
42:40
Speaker 1: you know, that's one that's real obviously for them. But
42:45
Speaker 1: they're they're strategically you know, the the fraudster is just
42:51
Speaker 1: building rapport and connection and trust and familiarity until eventually
42:57
Speaker 1: there's such a deep emotional connection that the idea that
43:01
Speaker 1: this isn't true just that can't exist.
43:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know it's not even all that deep,
43:08
Speaker 2: you know, it just feel like the most mundane stuff.
43:11
Speaker 2: It's probably a bot, you know, like what are you doing?
43:15
Speaker 2: What do you have for lunch? Send me a picture
43:19
Speaker 2: that sounds really good, you know, if you have a pet, yeah,
43:23
Speaker 2: your dog. You know, it's it's mundane stuff, but it's
43:27
Speaker 2: just so much of it, you know, it just keeps
43:29
Speaker 2: the engaged.
43:32
Speaker 1: Have you written a book, prof?
43:36
Speaker 2: I have, I have an edited book, but I'm working
43:40
Speaker 2: on a current book. It's called played the Psychology of
43:48
Speaker 2: Fraud and with my co author Nive Hannik. Yeah, we're
43:53
Speaker 2: doing our research and we're in the writing phase of
43:56
Speaker 2: that right now.
43:57
Speaker 1: Oh amazing, amazing. So I applied the Psychology of Fraud. Well,
44:02
Speaker 1: when you get that out, you have to hit us
44:04
Speaker 1: up or we'll hit you up. So we can have
44:06
Speaker 1: a chat about that and promote it. What's the timeline
44:08
Speaker 1: on that?
44:10
Speaker 2: Such a good question.
44:12
Speaker 1: I'm on, come on, get your shit together, come on.
44:18
Speaker 2: Due to my publisher by October, so hopefully i'll the end.
44:22
Speaker 1: Of yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so maybe maybe end of
44:27
Speaker 1: next year release.
44:28
Speaker 2: Huh yeah, exactly.
44:30
Speaker 1: That'd be good. Now is that going to be Is
44:31
Speaker 1: that going to be user friendly or is that going
44:33
Speaker 1: to be an academic book?
44:35
Speaker 2: No, it's it's definitely going to be user friendly. Lots
44:38
Speaker 2: of keys, examples and yah, you know, trying to bring
44:43
Speaker 2: some of the science to bearon explaining the phenomenon, but mostly,
44:47
Speaker 2: you know, trying to help consumers be better about identifying this.
44:52
Speaker 1: Yeahs Now, if my audience wants to find you or
44:57
Speaker 1: follow you, do you do you have Oh you do
44:59
Speaker 1: have a webs don't you? So can you just remind
45:02
Speaker 1: us what that is. You are the web address.
45:06
Speaker 2: It's doctor Stacey, would dot com perfect.
45:09
Speaker 1: And you want them to connect with you anywhere else?
45:11
Speaker 1: Or is that the best place?
45:13
Speaker 2: I'd say that's the best place.
45:15
Speaker 1: Perfect. All right, Well, we appreciate you. We'll say goodbye
45:19
Speaker 1: of here, but thanks for coming to have a chat
45:21
Speaker 1: on the you project, and congrats on all you're doing,
45:23
Speaker 1: and thanks for helping people get scammed less. Let's hope
45:30
Speaker 1: that a few people listening to this might have got
45:33
Speaker 1: some insights and maybe a little bit more awareness.
45:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks to both of you. I've really enjoyed talking
45:42
Speaker 2: with you.
45:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks Doc, Thanks TIV, thank you.