Latest / The Authority Podcast — Expert Insights and Fresh Ideas for Education Leaders / Sharing My Lens: The College Experience with Juliette Nelson
Transcript
- === Ross Romano: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Authority Podcast on the Be Podcast Network. Higher education is a topic of much discussion in our country, particularly in recent years. We've moved beyond the period when it was taken for granted as an obvious or objective good for everyone, and we're now engaging in a more critical analysis. Ross Romano: Thank What types of secondary and post secondary education are available? What outcomes are they truly delivering for students? What are the downsides? How are we preparing students to make the right decisions and choose a successful path for them? My guest, Dr. Juliette Nelson, is an industrial and organizational psychologist, educator, entrepreneur, and author of the book, sharing my lens, the college experience. Ross Romano: And we're going to discuss the higher education question, mainly from the student's perspective. And we're also going to consider how educators and other influential adults in their [00:01:00] lives can help make a difference in what students need to do to prepare for success in and beyond their higher education experience. Ross Romano: So Juliet, welcome to the show. Juliette Nelson: Thank you so much for having me. Ross Romano: And, um, I kind of want to get right into this. One of the things that you clearly articulated, um, in your bio, on your website, is that you're passionate about empowering people to achieve the highest standards of their purpose. So I want to ask you about that first, and ask first, what does that mean to you? Ross Romano: And where do you start with that? You know, do most people that you work with come to you knowing, you know, clearly what their purpose is and you're helping connect them with how they can live that out, or a lot of people looking for guidance and sort of establishing their purpose. So what does that process look like for you? Juliette Nelson: right. So I say purpose to differentiate it from potential. Um, and this is a story that I kind of I not [00:02:00] kind of but I like to refer to. Um, I'd applied for years ago I'd applied for a promotion to become a program manager. And, um, I did well in the interview. I, you know, I came with my A game, 30 60 90 day plan, brought in my portfolio, um, you know, data charts and all of that. Juliette Nelson: Um, I didn't get the role. And that's okay, you know, that it happens, right? But I remember the selecting official reaching out to me and calling me and letting me know that I had the potential. But I didn't have the experience, the extent of the experience she was looking for. And I don't know why, but it offended me so much. Juliette Nelson: And I remember calling my dad crying, and I'm like, the only thing you've called me since I was a kid was doctor, lawyer, and president. How dare somebody reduce me to being a program manager? and It really caused me to sit back for a moment and [00:03:00] think about all the times that we use potential and we limit ourselves, we limit other people. Juliette Nelson: I mean, they even say you don't make friends or you don't date people for potential, right? Because you can say, oh, this person has the potential to, I don't know, get therapy, to get a job, to this, to that, and they never live up to that expectation that you've made for them. But the thing about purpose, it's assigned to you, right? Juliette Nelson: So whether you consider it a divine, a divine purpose or the universe, or just, hey, this is what I'm meant to do in this, on this earth. It's more that, that objective that you're meant to fill, and it doesn't have to look like a specific thing, right? Um, since we're speaking about educators, right, on your platform, on the authority podcast, you know, you can teach in so many ways. Juliette Nelson: And I know for myself, as a kid, I wanted to be a classroom teacher. Um, and I did not. end up being a classroom teacher. I have taught in the classroom, right? But I'm a children's choir director and I teach children music. And in that experience, they learn leadership, they learn teamwork, they [00:04:00] learn community, they learn about service. Juliette Nelson: Um, I also do private tutoring. So that's another way of teaching. I've been involved in developing training and development programs. That's another way that you're actually passing information and you're Juliette Nelson: still allows you to walk in your purpose. And so that's why I say, um, you know, that I, I like to empower people to achieve the highest standards of their purpose. Um, and I say highest standards because, um, we're, we're ever evolving and we're constantly learning. and I think sometimes that's another thing we limit ourselves of saying okay, I reached this place, and I'm good. Juliette Nelson: It's okay to be content, right and I don't want to take that away from anyone, but when you understand that you are constantly evolving, it allows you to. continually remain in the place of self reflection, of self awareness, right? Of looking at how your behaviors impact other people, of looking at how your behaviors impact yourself, right? Juliette Nelson: What is that [00:05:00] thing that allows me to live better, to do better, to be healthier, to make better decisions, to make wiser decisions, and so on and so forth? And so that's why I speak to the highest standard. In terms of where people start, that's a very good question. Um, I think I just usually kind of tap into, like, what is your lived experience, right? Juliette Nelson: What is that lived experience that has brought you to where you are today? And how do you use that, right, so that you can make an impact? And the impact doesn't always have to be you having tens of thousands or hundreds and millions of followers on Instagram. Sometimes it can be you making an impact in your neighborhood, in your small community, in your home. Juliette Nelson: Um, and so in working with my clients, and even, you know, Chatting with friends and so on and so forth. I think that's where the conversation starts, is what does your impact look like? Um, I also give, this is one of, one of my students, um, or former students, I remember my first session with him, I usually try to ask [00:06:00] What do you want to do when you grow up? Juliette Nelson: Not what do you want to be? Right? Because especially with children, we always say, what do you want to be? And they say, I want to be an astronaut. I want to be a nurse. I want to be this. I want to be that. And so what happens is that we, we have them tied to this one thing and then they go to school, right? Juliette Nelson: To study, to be an astronaut, but they didn't realize they can use that same STEM education and maybe work at NASA. or work at the Federal Aviation Administration or, you know, another, a challenger center or something instead of being an astronaut, or they can work with data and coding and software and so on and so forth. Juliette Nelson: But again, that's what happens when you understand your purpose and you're not tied to a specific title, right? So I asked one of my students, what do you want to do when you go up, grow up? And this is a kid who at the time, I don't know if he still does, but he loved Fortnite. Okay, and this was the year of Fortnite, and he was the person, he came on, he said, Listen, Miss Juliet, my friend is on hold. Juliette Nelson: You got 15 minutes in this lesson, because I need to go finish my [00:07:00] game of Fortnite and my competition, whatever it is. And I remember asking him, like, okay, let's slow down. What do you want to do? And he says, I want to play video games. And I said, for the rest of your life? And he said, Yes, I want to play video games when I grow up. Juliette Nelson: And so I remember engaging him in a conversation and said, What if you created games? like Fortnite for other kids to play. And that jogged his memory. And sometimes there were times he didn't feel like, you know, again, he's in video game mode. He doesn't feel like learning. And so me taking him to the back end of my website, so he sees the coding, right? Juliette Nelson: And he sees what happens in the back end so that he can see the front end. Now it intrigues his interest, right? But you're tapping into, again, what am I meant to do? And how can I make an impact instead of. What is this static being that I'm, or this box that I'm supposed to step in? So. Ross Romano: Yeah, that's a great example of how those, you know, conversations with the individual, learners of any age can lead to, uh, kind [00:08:00] of uncovering, okay, where's the opportunities to really tap into that, um, you know, innate motivation and interest and the things that engage us. And, you know, we've had discussions, um, over here amongst ourselves lately about things like. Ross Romano: eSports relating to the video gaming and, uh, understanding that, a lot of people don't really know much about that or what it is, but when you dig into it, you say, well, look, there's a whole economy around this, right? There are a lot of opportunities here and it's not necessarily the thing that everybody should do or focus exclusively on. Ross Romano: However, you know, anything that you're really passionate about enough to become really good at opens up opportunities. And when we know these things about kids and, and, you know, as you talked about purpose and I, you know, I like to, you mentioned kind of lived experience, right. And those conversations, because a lot of times it thinks to me, like it is the type of thing that. Ross Romano: [00:09:00] Only the, only the rare person discovers what they really feel to be their purpose at a young age. A lot of times it takes a lot of lived experience, trial and error, going in a direction in our life or career that we thought was the thing we wanted to do and then realizing, you know what, I'm not where I'm supposed to be. Ross Romano: Um, and it may require, you know, reflection and sitting and listening and waiting and, you know, a word that as it relates to. You know, professions that a lot of our listeners certainly will be familiar with is vocation, right? The thing that you're called to do that may be also your profession, but it is separate from, um, and, you know, the way you may evaluate your progress toward your purpose or to, to achieving the highest standards of your purpose is a separate You know, evaluation from how you may, you may, um, you know, [00:10:00] think about how you're succeeding in your career, right? Ross Romano: They're, they're, they, they could go together and hopefully they do and most people eventually maybe we'll find that, but it's also separate. It's a separate because it's, it's a totally subjective personal evaluation of saying, okay, I'm doing X, Y, Z. I'm doing great in my job here, but am I having the impact I want to have? Ross Romano: Am I reaching what I want to have? Am I really? Is this really what I'm meant to be doing? Um, and, uh, and it's, you know, very interesting to think about how that those things, I mean, they're ever evolving. It's, Juliette Nelson: And you'll notice that too, if you really take the time to sit and reflect, you might notice that you are fulfilling your purpose. It just looks different. Right. It looks different in every season in your life. And I think this is something that I've tried to do. I always try to ask, like, why am I here? Juliette Nelson: Who am I helping? And why am I here? Right? My first job was Marshall's and I absolutely hated it. Um, and I'm sorry to [00:11:00] whoever my first managers are if they do listen to this. I hated that job. I was 16 years old. I didn't care for it. But imagine if my thought process was... You know, what is my, what is the end goal here? Juliette Nelson: Who am I impacting, right? There could be that person who had a horrible day and they become my customer, they walk in the store, and the fact that I walked them over, right, maybe it was a single mom, and I said, hey, this might look cute for the new baby. And that changed her entire day, right? And in that sense, I'm still making an impact, right? Juliette Nelson: Um, and I think sometimes what happens is, yeah, we, we go into a new space, we get excited in the beginning, and then we get used to it and we get bored. Um, and especially when you're looking in today's day. You know, there's the encouragement of you don't have to be in a box, right? You can form one more than one business or you can have your business and work full time or you can change careers. Juliette Nelson: It doesn't matter how deep you are in this career, or you can change jobs, you know, um, but I think sometimes if we take the time to really [00:12:00] look back and say, okay. What is, what is the impact that I've made or what have I been able to achieve, or perhaps, is there a reason that I needed to be there right to position me for where I am, we might find that we're kind of on this journey. Juliette Nelson: And as you said, it may not be, I don't know if there's ever like an end result right because again we're always evolving, but it may not be as. far along as we'd like to be, but it's still kind of part of our learning experience and our lived experience so that it kind of propels us for the next step. Juliette Nelson: So, Ross Romano: Right, yeah, and it's identifying those slices in what we're doing that we that we, you know, do enjoy. Okay, I, you know, I really don't think that the place for me was in this retail environment, but I did like it when I had the opportunities to really interact with the customer. And, you know, what really seems interesting is, you know, I, I'm looking into nursing, because you know that's more about patient care and it's [00:13:00] all you know it's really kind of that that reflection and thinking about okay there's pieces of what we're involved in or who we're interacting with. Ross Romano: So let's kind of pivot toward, you know, the book more specifically and. And of course it's, uh, it's kind of leading, right, LL students toward, um, discovering the purpose in their lives and the ways that they may go about achieving it. So, um, you know, before you wrote the book, what made you kind of come to the conclusion that this was an important book to write? Ross Romano: And then how did you go about preparing to write it? Juliette Nelson: Right. So for the record, I wish I had a very romantic story about, about how I came to write the book where I was kind of on a pilgrimage and, um, I made a discovery and I'm like, I'm going to write a book and then all that, that did not happen. I also was one of those students who hated school. Um, I didn't have a lot of students that looked like me. Juliette Nelson: Um, and I, I mean, I, I had [00:14:00] a nice, I would like to say I have decent high school life, but again, I didn't have students that I could identify with. Um, and so I didn't really enjoy it. I got the work done, I got the grades, and that's all that mattered to me. Um. Now, years pass, I mean, I graduate with my bachelor's, my master's, I'm working on my PhD at this moment, and I think someone had offered me the journey of, um, the opportunity to, you know, write a book under their company. Juliette Nelson: and I, you know, we had a long conversation I said okay you know I'll follow back up with you when you're ready but it was more supposed to be a memoir about my life. Um, and sometime after that I remember. Um, saying like it like it coming to my mind like I need to call this person and follow up and there was a voice that I heard that was like, chill out, you don't even know your story yet. Juliette Nelson: And I'm like, oh, and then it was like this epiphany of like, this is not the person who's going to share your [00:15:00] story. So in my head I'm like so who's gonna tell the story because it's not gonna be me. and eventually I just had to like pause, right? I'm like, okay, so, so what do I do? Do I call this person? Juliette Nelson: Do I not? Um, and so I think I was in this state of, oh, okay, perhaps I do need to share my story. I just don't know how. And I'm fighting with the thought of, am I supposed to be the one to like do this by myself? and I remember having a conversation. With one of my mentees and, um, we were just chatting it up about all the things that we wish we knew before we went into college. Juliette Nelson: And I think that's when the light bulb went off. And I'm like, that's it. That's, that's what I'm going to write about. And so that book, it was very spur of the moment. Um, I, I wrote it and published it in three weeks. I do not recommend anyone try it at home. It's very, it's, it's a very intense process. You are sitting and pulling all [00:16:00] nighters and this was going to be also the official launch of my publishing company. Juliette Nelson: So, I really had to run it through Jun Uri publishing system. Right? So I'm the editor. I'm having to establish the processes and so on and so forth. So it was a very intense process, um, you know, um, combination of writing. and you're having to force yourself to think creatively, which is also challenging. Juliette Nelson: I think what helped was being in the PhD program that I was in because now I at that point I'm studying psychology. So now it's like, okay, and I'm working with students. Um, more closely. So you're understanding a lot of the questions they're asking. You're, you're seeing like the nuances that are just not being pieced together for them. Juliette Nelson: So I was able to really take a very comprehensive approach with the book. At least that was my intention. And yeah, here we are, years later. Ross Romano: Yeah, no, I mean, and it's, it's so, uh, interesting to me personally to think about, you know, these, a [00:17:00] book with this focus and how it comes to be and, and how helpful it can be because one, as I kind of, you know, mentioned in the introduction, right, it's, it's a time right now when we're rethinking some of the, uh, assumptions of the past several decades around higher education and what it's supposed to be and who it's for and what the best fits are, but also, yeah. Ross Romano: So, um, you know, in my personal experience, it's probably representative of a lot of students, but I've had the ability through, you know, the work I've done in my career to learn more and more and more about it, where I was a student who was, you know, toward the top of my class in high school. So I was the one that. Ross Romano: didn't receive a lot of support toward higher education because I was the kid where they were able to say that he's going to be fine, we don't need to worry about him, right? And you know, and I had parents who had gone to college, but each of them Um, we're first generation and they applied to one school and went, right. Ross Romano: It was a different [00:18:00] time. It wasn't the same as it became with all the competitive admissions process. And I had very good SAT scores, but no, certainly nobody knew about SAT tutoring. Or if they did, they assumed it was for kids who are really struggling, right? All of those things that you know, that nobody tells you when they just assume you know it. Ross Romano: Um, so there, and, and then later on, I learned, you know, after I started to, well, after I had gone to college thinking, you know, yeah, I don't know, like. Academically, I was prepared for this, but how prepared was I to make the decisions I needed to make? And it was not until really my junior year that I started to really get a grasp of what was going on. Ross Romano: And then Juliette Nelson: some people drop it at senior year. Some people are like one semester out and they're like, wait, no, what are we doing? Absolutely not. Stop the press. Ross Romano: right. And I was lucky to keep my head, you know, afloat, um, because that's, you know, it could have gone much worse. Um, and then, you know, later on down the road, when I started working in this field in [00:19:00] education and I learned well, um, You know, I think there's one, I think there's one state, I can't remember which state, but otherwise, it's at least 49 states are nowhere close to the recommended student to counselor ratio, right? Ross Romano: I mean, it's just a capacity issue. And I think, okay, well, that makes sense now, right? Because, all right, if I went to a high school of 1200 students, and there were like 10 counselors, Juliette Nelson: Mm hmm. Ross Romano: Okay. Yeah. All right. The, you know, the numbers. Okay. Yeah. There's not that much, um, to go around. And so these are all the things where it's like, yeah, it does make sense to understand there's resources outside of that, that can supplement and complement it. Ross Romano: Cause there's just very real concerns that just can't write in that can't be addressed by the people who are on the ground, right? There's systemic things where we need to really rethink the way that budget. It's our allocated and funding and the opportunities that are left [00:20:00] out because, but ultimately like. Ross Romano: whoever's in the building is doing the best they can. And when you think about it from that POV, you say, okay, if there's 180 days in the school year and I have 120 students that I'm responsible for, well, what's the math on that? It's not great. Juliette Nelson: Right. Ross Romano: not good. Juliette Nelson: Right. Ross Romano: so anyhow, um, what are some of the things, you know, as you certainly were writing the book and they're in the book that that you decided, you know what, these are things that students need to think about before they ever go to college and potentially before they even decide they're going to go to college. Juliette Nelson: Right. And, and I'll say this, um, to answer your question and also piggyback on what you said, and thank you for sharing that because that's a very. You have a very unique perspective with that, right? We do think and put a lot of attention on the kids that probably don't have a lot of resources, right? But it's interesting here from the perspective of someone who's like, yeah, I graduated close to the top of my class, but nobody thought about me either, right? Juliette Nelson: [00:21:00] Um, and, and I identify with that because I took college classes in high school, right? And so you assume you took college classes in high school, you are ready, Ross Romano: right, Juliette Nelson: and then you get to college. Right? And I remember starting my days in high school at like 7 in the morning, and my first classes in college were at 8. Juliette Nelson: And I was like, why am I so tired? And why am I struggling? And you want me to read all of this? by Wednesday, you know, it was, it was almost like a culture shock. Right. Um, and again, there's the assumption that, yeah, you're taking these college classes. And that was always, I remember that being a theme, right. Juliette Nelson: From elementary school, going to middle school, they're like, once you get to middle school, it's going to be hard. You know, you can't slack. And then you, you get to middle school and they give you the same thing for high school and the same thing for college, but even then you're still not ready. Right. Juliette Nelson: And then there's the, the. Again, the student to counselor ratio, it's like that in high school, it's like [00:22:00] that in college, right? You, you come from one level, one extreme of you have a high school of, you know, quite a few hundred students to a college of thousands of students, right? Um, and so I think with that being said, what I wanted to emphasize is first and foremost, the self awareness portion. Juliette Nelson: Right? Understanding your learning style, um, like literally mentally preparing yourself, understanding your learning style, um, really identifying your strengths, your opportunity areas, right? Identify with those learning, and I would say preferred learning styles, right? Identify how you best interact with your environment, and I know they have personality assessments. Juliette Nelson: Some don't recommend it. I enjoy them, um, because it does help with self reflection. I'm a big Myers Briggs girl, right? And I think in doing the Myers Briggs assessment, it was not necessarily like, okay, I'm, I'm stuck to this INFJ, [00:23:00] but it did help me to reflect on myself and say, okay, In what aspects am I more introverted, right? Juliette Nelson: In what aspects do I really need some time by myself so I can regroup and then come back and, you know, learn or interact with classmates and so on and so forth. And so when you're able to do that work, That allows you to be more prepared, at least for the environment you're going to step into. That also allows you to be more intentional about your search, right? Juliette Nelson: If you know, you learn better, you retain information when you see pictures and graphs and so on and so forth, you have no business in a lecture where they're talking for two hours and just talking. Right, because it makes it difficult for you to retain it. And if you so happen to be in a class, right, where you do have a lecture, maybe it's the opportunity to say, hey, Maybe I need to ask for an accommodation so I can have, you know, so I can record the class or whatever the case may be. Juliette Nelson: So, you know, those are the things that I really wanted to include [00:24:00] that self awareness and identifying your needs, and to add to it, taking ownership of your learning journey. I think. The way we're all raised is okay. We're either going to depend on our parents to do it for us, right? We come from being in high school, and if we get a bad grade, um, our parents show up to the school, right? Juliette Nelson: Or if we're misbehaving, our parents show up. It's always the parents show up, the parents show up, right? But, If we probably were taught to have a little bit more ownership, right? This is, these are your classes. How do you feel about these classes? Which ones are you more strong in, right? How do we pair them up? Juliette Nelson: I think that would be a very great way of helping with organization for when you step into college, right? Because what happens, we get into college, now it's not our parents anymore, it's our guidance counselor, right? Now they're the ones just throwing classes together. And I don't want to say throwing, but they're, they're arranging our schedule. Juliette Nelson: But they don't really, they don't know what our strengths and weaknesses are, right? Maybe I'm taking a Calc class [00:25:00] and a History class, but what if English is my strong suit, and Calc and History, I need to slow down with those. So perhaps I could have separated those into two separate semesters, instead of having those two things that, our opportunity areas in the one semester. Juliette Nelson: Now I'm pulling out my, my, my hair so that I can survive this semester. So those are really some of the things that I wanted to think of that I wanted to include in the book, right? Making sure that you're mentally, emotionally prepared and you're coming in having a better understanding of who you are and what you need. Juliette Nelson: Of course, you're younger. Where you're, we're constantly evolving, but at least who am I at this point in time? What do I like? How do I interact with people? If I know that I study better when I'm by myself, then that's helpful in when I go into college. If I know that I'm better off studying with a group of friends, or if I know that maybe I need something hands on, maybe it's not college that I need, maybe I, I want to be an electrician. Juliette Nelson: [00:26:00] And I think, you know, we also need to shift that narrative, right? And only thinking that. You know, going to college to get this. engineering, doctor, lawyer, this almost academic in a sense degree where it's, you know, we're learning theories and we're learning concepts. Sometimes, hey, listen, I can provide value as a welder. Juliette Nelson: I can provide value as a seamstress and they are needed, right? They are needed. Their jobs are valuable. Their contributions are valuable. And sometimes that's how students can learn better. And we also need to create the space for that. Um, and so, Yeah, when, when I wrote the book and considering that next step after high school, I think those were the things I kept in mind, um, taking ownership and knowing yourself. Juliette Nelson: So, Ross Romano: you know, I, I hate to go backward, but I, I realized in my head, my math wasn't adding up and I actually think it was more like 2, 400, 2, 600 students in my Ross Romano: high school and [00:27:00] maybe about 10 counselors, not 1, 200. Um, Ross Romano: so the point being that Ross Romano: that's not going to be a surprise right to our, to our listeners, but that sometimes the hardest thing, um, when you're in these positions, the hardest thing can be to. Ross Romano: you know, to come to the conclusion about the things that you can't quite address because the resources just aren't there. And to say, okay, how can I proactively identify another solution? You know, how do we proactively really engage families in these processes so that they are able to have a more hands on approach, even if they're not starting with a whole lot of information because ultimately, like, they're the ones that are going to have more opportunities to, to make a difference here, um, and to really understand, you know, what, what are the things that, the student is particularly interested in, where might they be most [00:28:00] successful, where would they flourish, um, you know, and seeing it through. Ross Romano: And one of the biggest things is, that it's not just about getting to the next level, but it's to through beyond and doing so successfully, right? Ross Romano: And it's, and it's that need to think ahead and say, okay, if I am, if we are the high school, whatever that means. And we have a student who has graduated from our school. Okay, they're, you know, that doesn't necessarily mean that we did our job, because were they, when they graduated, were they ready for whatever was next? Ross Romano: Same thing at the colleges. And the colleges, I think is where this question is even, uh, more important, because I, because I, I would say that higher education has, um, not taken this as seriously in my, in my, uh, observation as, as K 12, you know, and they have the more recent, but thinking like, What, what more do we have to be doing to [00:29:00] really, to truly be serving our student body, right? Ross Romano: And that's, it's, there's this whole group that I would call like the, the middle class of, of higher ed institutions, which means like the non IVs, you know, complete upper tier that people are going to want to go to no matter what forever. And, but also not the Um, either two year schools or, you know, state schools or, you know, others who are, some of them by nature are a little bit more innovative or at least a little more thinking about competency based models or the skills kids are learning or connecting it to a career path because they know that they have to demonstrate that to attract students and they really are thoughtful. Ross Romano: And then there's all the other four year schools kind of in the middle that have the price tags that line up maybe with that upper tier, um, but have, in some ways maybe coasted on the system that has existed here post World War II, right, where it was like, okay, there's always going to be [00:30:00] plenty of students that want to come to college and we offer them a great campus life and good programs. Ross Romano: And yeah, there's all these courses they could take or whatever. And, but they make of it what they make of it. Versus, okay, do we still have some responsibility to provide more guidance and more preparation and really get them thinking from the day they step on campus about how each thing that they're doing, each credit they're earning, right? Ross Romano: Each program they're participating in, how does that connect to their pathway to what happens after they leave us? Juliette Nelson: Right. And, Juliette Nelson: that, that brings me to think, sorry to cut you off, but that brings me to think of practicality, practicality, and also tangibility, right? When we're getting, when we're leaving high school, we're going to college, we're leaving college, we're going to the, to the, there's, it's, sometimes it's, there's the lack of practice. And tangibility, right? When I'm in math class and I'm learning about the Pythagorean Theorem, and I was one of those kids who were like, what am I going to do with the [00:31:00] Pythagorean Theorem? I want to study business and I want to count money. What does learning about triangles and angles have to do with me counting my money? Juliette Nelson: But, let's say, in a math class, they're like, listen. You might want to buy some land one day, if we're talking building wealth, right? And then we tag that in. Now we're having a conversation, right? Um, especially now where we have social issues and politics and so on and so forth. If in a history class, It was a little more practical like this is why it needs to matter to you, right, you're gonna have to vote one day you're gonna have to make decisions that impact yourself, your parents, your children, etc, etc. Juliette Nelson: Now it's piquing my interest. And then we get when we get into the college space, as you said, Really trying to line it up with something that I can apply in the workspace. I think unless you're really going into the medical field where you have practicums and stuff like that, depending on the institution, for a lot of fields, you're not [00:32:00] required to do internships. Right? I went to school for business. That was my undergrad. I wasn't required to do internships. So how was I going to come in as an entry level candidate for a job requiring three to five years of experience? Because you know how that is for the entry level roles, right? So again, if it's not tangible, if it's not something I can relate to, and oftentimes you have a lot of students who say, listen, I don't need to go to college to succeed. Juliette Nelson: And there is some validity to that. But the, the, the part. that they're missing is you're supposed to still be learning, right? The Mark Zuckerbergs of the world and all that, that we say they dropped out of school, they dropped out of Ivy League schools, number one. But number two, they still made sure that they learned everything they had to do so that they can gain and achieve the success that they have. Juliette Nelson: And I think that's, that's where the disconnect is. Um, we have a lot of curriculums that focus more on theory, right? We have all these theories, but it's like, how do I take this theory? And put [00:33:00] it into the workplace, right? How is it so that I can touch it? And I think perhaps that also making it, for it just feeling so far away, it makes it now challenging for me to understand what I actually want to do when I graduate. Juliette Nelson: Right? I might come into the classroom and I'm like, yeah, I want to, I want to be, I don't know, I want to be an engineer and I'm learning all this stuff, but it's not as practical for me. Or I want to be a lawyer and it's not as practical for me. And it's also not as tangible. It's not something that I can really see myself doing. Juliette Nelson: So now I'm like, no, I want to throw the whole thing away because I don't know how I'm supposed to do this. How am I going to make an impact? You know? Um, and so those are like the two themes that I was, Hearing in a sense the two recurring things that I was hearing what you're saying, really making it so that I can touch it I can imagine myself doing this and applying it in the workspace and making it practical where it is something that I can transition. Juliette Nelson: But that's an opportunity I would say from high school and [00:34:00] higher education that's something that's an opportunity area for both of those levels. Ross Romano: Right. And really, you know, one of the things, for example, that comes up a lot, of course, with, um, in illustrating how. you know, enormous. Some of the decisions are that 17, 18 year olds are asked to make is around the financial commitments and okay, you know, if a student takes out student loans, it's like, well, you're asking an 18 year old to make a decision about whether or not it's a good financial decision to take out X amount in loans and, and how are they, but there's also all these other related things that are worth. Ross Romano: Thinking about, and that can be figured out, like you said, you know, for some people who say, well, I can be successful without going to school, uh, without going to college. You, you can be, you can, but you have to really think through, okay, one, what skills do I have? What do they relate to? How durable are they? Ross Romano: What, [00:35:00] as best as we can tell, and this is really challenging, you know, what does the future of the economy maybe look like? Am I prepared for that? You know, in some ways, sometimes I experienced the whiplash of, I was like the last, you know, everybody that was like just a little bit younger than me, for example, I think it was really drilled into their head that they needed to learn at least something about like coding and computer science, right? Ross Romano: And it was like, okay, but now. You know, I don't know what is the next future hold? Well, with AI technologies, a lot of what they learned may become, you know, and it may come back to, okay, maybe, you know, it's, it's not so much about the knowledge economy, but, you know, because sometimes I'll hear, like, 16 year olds or what, you know, there's a lot of really smart kids out there who have learned how to make a whole lot of money on YouTube or something, right? Ross Romano: Or TikTok. And I'm like, well, what do I need college for? But it's like, I don't know. I don't know in 20 years the things that you're doing now. What does [00:36:00] that turn into? Right? Is it smart to at least get that foundation? And, you know, maybe you never exactly use it, but, but you have it. Because, you know, perhaps there's an expiration date on, especially when we're talking about third party platforms that could be here today gone tomorrow. Ross Romano: It's like, okay, you know, what are, but what are the component skills? competencies, what's the network you're building? And I want to talk about that too. Um, and actually, let's get right into that piece about the network of, you know, this, this is a, one of those concepts that can be number one, it can be a foreign concept to it can have these kind of negative or at least slyly dismissive connotations around what networking is. Ross Romano: And two, it can be really challenging for, students who are really responsible for building their own network. They're not having one that's being handed to them by their family or, you know, Oh, I, I always have a family friend here or there kind of thing and figuring out, okay, what is a network?[00:37:00] Ross Romano: How do I get one? And then how do I use it? Um, and I know that's kind of part of your process. So, you know, talk us through that. Juliette Nelson: Yeah. And, and I'm glad you brought that up because I, I would, I identify to an extent with that experience. You know, I. had a very strong church community. Um, that, you know, it, that, that was the village that raised me, but I, I do also know the experience of You know, maybe not having access to jobs. Juliette Nelson: When I say I'm talking like your Googles and you're having that access early on, because again, my parents, you know, my dad's a school teacher, mom's a dietician, she works for the county. And so those are where their resources are. But, I mean, there are some ways to maneuver it. Um, and I, this is not a one size fits all. Juliette Nelson: You know, you have some students that might feel more comfortable to [00:38:00] keep in touch with professors. I've seen that, right? Where you notice, um, a lot of students, you know, they're able to get on research or they're able to get, they're able to get, um, internships and so on and so forth because they build these meaningful relationships with their professors, right? Juliette Nelson: So that can be one opportunity to say, hey, can I learn a little bit more about what you do? I know when I was an undergrad. Again, a lot of things which is not tangible for me, they just seem so far away so I see these professors, I remember one of my lay professors, he used to come in with a stack of bylaws. Juliette Nelson: and operating agreements. It was like these, these binders that he always came in with and he's like this is where I have my articles of organization and this and this and this and all of these are businesses. But again, like I can't identify with that. I don't, I don't know the first, second or last thing and it, it didn't make sense to me that he was a business owner. Juliette Nelson: Um, I have an accounting professor. All I saw him was as my accounting professor and he looked [00:39:00] like he worked on perhaps Wall Street or this big, you know, corporate office. You know, he dressed well, he dressed the part and so on and so forth. But again, it was just so far away. But if only, you know, sometimes it helps for professors to have these conversations and say, this is where I've worked, right? Juliette Nelson: This is the work that I do outside of who you see standing before you. Right? And perhaps lending, I know it can be overwhelming, so that's up to us, of course, what the professor's comfortable with. But maybe instead of only having, um, you know, sessions, courses where you're only doing instruction, maybe allow students to ask, have conversations and ask you about what you do. Juliette Nelson: Right? Because that's how you start to build your network, right? That's how students build a network, and that's how the professor allows the student to build the network. Um, what I've also found is there's not as much awareness, um, and this is from my [00:40:00] upbringing, um, and those in my network now, there was not as much awareness in joining professional networks. Juliette Nelson: They're there, right? You can join as a student, you can have the 25 a year membership, but for some reason I don't, I don't see them, I don't see those themes ring as loudly as they do for professionals who have the years of experience. And I think it would be also helpful for networks to not always be so rigid on research focus. Juliette Nelson: And this depends on the field, right? Because the challenge you find there is maybe every student doesn't want to be a professor, right? Not every student wants to work in a lab, or not every student wants to do studies, right? Maybe they want to work in a company that actually, again, the tangibility, right? Juliette Nelson: That they bring the results and so on and so forth. So really, the question becomes, how are networks also trying to bridge with the [00:41:00] students? And making it something where I'm not only going to be working in a lab or working on publishing papers or working toward being a college professor, but I can contribute value in some agency, some organization or for myself. Juliette Nelson: Um, but I think that's also valuable. For students to understand that, you tapping into these professional networks, you know, if you're an engineer, look up association, type the word association and engineer, type up society and engineer, and you might find a long list. And now, where we have these themes surrounding diversity, equity, and inclusion, you have, Networks that sometimes target a specific demographic of people, right, where you're in there with people that might look like you or you identify with similar lived experiences. Juliette Nelson: And so it gives you that sense of belonging and that sense of community. So I would say, you know, those are opportunities for both students. and the networks themselves. Um, and I, I would also [00:42:00] say, you know, even your classmates, hold on to them, you know, try to see if you can build meaningful relationships. Juliette Nelson: I know those were the relationships that were helpful for me. Ross Romano: Right. Juliette Nelson: seeing how you can find a mentor, seeing how you can keep in touch because what happens is I know with one of my jobs, it was someone in my church community who had a job and I was like, listen, I need an internship. I just need help. Juliette Nelson: And he spoke to his boss and his boss said, No, she has a solid resume. Let's bring her in as a paid employee. He brought me in and I brought another friend in and she brought another friend in. But again, unfortunately, it's not. And I'm not going to say unfortunately, it's not 100% what you know. It's also who you know, and depending on where you go, one might weigh a little heavily, more heavily than the other. Juliette Nelson: But, you know, keeping that relationship with your, your classmates, um, treat your colleagues right. You know, again, if you were flipping burgers at McDonald's or you were hanging up clothes [00:43:00] at Uh, target, whatever, still hold onto those relationships, because you never know where life will take those colleagues and you never know where you can help them or they can help you, so, Ross Romano: Yeah, and, uh, yeah, and as you said, you know, the, the statement about it's not what you know, it's who you know, and then some people say, well, it's not who you know, it's who knows you. And it's kind of all of that, right? Because to me, I might say, it's not what you know, it's who knows that you know it, right? Ross Romano: It's how do you, show what you can do and build those relationships so that there's that mutual understanding so that you are able to be acknowledged for the skills that you have and the kind of person you are. And, Juliette Nelson: Mm-hmm. Ross Romano: you know, that who knows you thing is so powerful because in a lot of ways and some of our listeners, depending on their roles, are either like nodding along to this or saying, Oh, this is, you know, this is interesting, but it's, you know, cause you kind of do rise or fall to the level of your network and particularly to the level of who [00:44:00] knows you, because that is very magnetic, right? Ross Romano: And when we think about, people who end up not being as successful as they might have been, or just get stray away from what they, what their purpose was or what they thought their path was. A lot so often it's because They find themselves in situations where they don't, they're not comfortable because they don't feel like the people that are around really know them, and they're more attracted to go do something with the people who do, even if it's kind of away from what they were intending, right? Ross Romano: And, and, but that can be hard to cultivate, But, you know, and so much of it goes by I'm glad that you mentioned the professional associations because I've worked in that space a lot too and it's so similar to what we talked about with like colleges and things like Juliette Nelson: Mm-hmm. Ross Romano: a lot of those are there. The memberships are dwindling because nobody people don't. Juliette Nelson: Mm-hmm. Ross Romano: any longer [00:45:00] just, it's not just a routine that everybody does, everybody signs up for the Associates anymore. And a part of that, even though the resources are still really good, is that people don't know how to use those networks. And, and to say, okay, It's not just about the journals you get or the, you know, the discounts or the benefits and those kind of things. Ross Romano: Um, but it's also about how you engage with the other members of the network and how you build. Um, to me, like one of the pieces of advice that I would give to, you know, young people now thinking about what they want to do in their careers is, you know, to really seriously think about how you're building your own identity and professional persona outside of your day job. Ross Romano: It's not necessarily, it doesn't necessarily mean a quote unquote personal brand, although it could be that, but it's how, and it's not that you're just a maneuverer, you know, the person who's just always out there [00:46:00] trying to go for the next thing and not really giving care to your job, but it's that you need, that's how, that's how you become resilient, because you're not solely dependent upon what types of supervisors you have or what types of mentors you have in your workplace, you know, cause you may end up with really great ones that give you opportunities and recognize your potential and move you up the ladder. Ross Romano: You may have others who really aren't seeing it and you need to have that control and autonomy over your own career and really understand what's out there and who's out there in those relationships and. That's a big part of it. If you're part of those kind of professional associations and networks, there's so much you can do with it, but it has to be a proactive thing. Ross Romano: It doesn't just come to you. Right. Juliette Nelson: Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and I, I did see, and this might not be a popular opinion, um, but to your point, um, I've seen, I often see themes of, of recommending, um, people to at least [00:47:00] start applying to different jobs. at least after six months. It doesn't mean that you won't stay there for a year to 10, 15 years. Juliette Nelson: It can be your dream job, but you never know when things will go south. And so as you are either interviewing or connecting with recruiters, at least you're asking questions, right? You're, you're getting on someone's radar. Hey, this opportunity didn't work now, but if I am ready to make the next move, there's someone that I, I can connect with, right? Juliette Nelson: There's someone I can I can reach out to, or I can say, Hey, do you have any openings in your organization? And so on and so forth. We see, I mean, your Googles, your metas of this world, right? People who are like a few years away from retirement. You know, people who are probably in a company since that recession and what? Juliette Nelson: 2008, right? Um, you [00:48:00] know, and now there, it's not a last one in, last one, a first one out. It's, hey, it's luck of a draw, you know, whoever it is. And again, it really shows that you want to ensure that you are tapping into that network. And, and I think you brought up a good point of finding who you are outside of work. Juliette Nelson: I think it is nice for you to love where you work, but what happens is when you become so entrenched in That place, it almost like forms your identity. And so the moment that you are put in a situation where you have to separate yourself from that. And if it so happens, unfortunately, that you were forced to, right, because there was a reduction in force or whatever the case may be. Juliette Nelson: What happens is like you're losing so much of yourself that you don't know how to move forward. But as you said, when you're able to step outside of that, you have professional networks or you just know who you are, you know, your hobbies, you [00:49:00] know, your skills, you're able to apply them in different ways. Juliette Nelson: Maybe you're, you're using your skills to volunteer in the community, or you're just finding ways to have conversations and connect with like minded people. Now, you know, there does come a point where you're like, okay, I do identify. With the lived experience at this company. However, that doesn't mean that I can't transition into a role at a different company. Juliette Nelson: and provide value. Um, but sometimes again, we're so, we, we form our identity so much to a company that we don't have the slightest clue of how we could provide value at another. So, um, I think that was extremely critical that, that you mentioned that. Ross Romano: Yeah. And then one last point I'll make on that for, uh, for any teachers who are tuned in here still is that, um, this, this can be counterintuitive and just kind of opposite of the typical experience I've talked to where I talk to people in, uh, that work in school to just be like, I've, I've worked in the same place for 20 years and all my friends are on like their [00:50:00] fourth career. Ross Romano: Right. But it's just cause it's not, uh, typically what we're used to. It's, you know, not the way the vocation works. However, Um, Juliette Nelson: Right. Ross Romano: you are needed out there. There are, there are way more, you know, we need way more teachers than what we have, so if you find yourself in a school where the culture is not suiting you, or things are not, you know, think, you know, think about this, that, that, I mean, I really, um, would encourage. Ross Romano: teachers to, to, to know this, right. And sometimes it's really hard to see from the inside and I see it from, you know, working in the field, but not in the schools to say, Hey, you know, there is demand for your skills and your experience. And, you know, sometimes it just takes looking to see where else you may have an opportunity, um, that comes along before you think that the profession is no longer for you, because realistically, You know, there, there is a lot out there and sometimes it just happens right over the course of time, um, [00:51:00] whether it's a leadership change or whatever the case may Ross Romano: be, Ross Romano: or it's just like, I'm just, I'm just, this is no longer where I should be, but it really is about that building versus that. job. Um, and, and so, you know, sometimes just being aware and then looking around or tapping into your network, you know, who are colleagues that moved around and what, and how are they doing now and all those things. Ross Romano: Um, so as we're sort of getting closer to, to wrapping up here, circle back to the book, um, you know, I'm sure we haven't touched on anything, but are there a few key takeaways that, you know, things that either we have maybe talked about that are worth reinforcing or things that we haven't touched on that you want to make sure to highlight? Juliette Nelson: we touched on, uh, I would say everything if not most. but I'll, I'll highlight them again. The first is, of course, knowing yourself. That's the first part of the book. Um, Just taking the time to really understand who you are and what you need. And this becomes extremely valuable, especially when you go into the [00:52:00] workplace, because now you can create a work environment that is conducive to you, right? Juliette Nelson: Second is not throwing away those key skills. Again, I was one of those kids who complained and I'm like, what am I going to do with this? And what am I going to do with that? Um, but especially reading, writing, public speaking, speaking another, learning another language, all of those are extremely valuable, right? Juliette Nelson: Maybe you don't see it in college. Um, and I know you mentioned, you know, sometimes, hey, you studied something in school and you may not apply it until like, a decade later or five years later, but you know, every learning experience that you get, every opportunity you get to pick something up, pick it up, right? Juliette Nelson: Pick that skill up, you know, public speaking, it looks like you being on this podcast, right? Um, once upon a time, you may not have imagined yourself. Speaking on a podcast, right? But that takes a level of public speaking. It can be presenting to a room of stakeholders. It can be presenting to a [00:53:00] classroom of children. Juliette Nelson: Um, it looks different. Um, writing is key. You know, uh, reading. A lot of those Those skills are so critical so that's number two. Then number three is again you versus your network right. I like to call it a personal brand it doesn't necessarily have to be you being a content creator, but it's like who do you present yourself as right how do you step out into this world, right. Juliette Nelson: and being intentional about building meaningful connections, but also being okay with the fact that your journey does not have to look like everybody else's. Um, and you know, this is a story I, I, I've had people who've assumed that I had it all together, right, in terms of my career because I graduated four years out of college. Juliette Nelson: And then after college, I went to South Korea to be a teacher, came back, did a year and a half for my master's. Then I went back, did four years with my [00:54:00] PhD. But, they're not aware that it took me over ten years to actually... fall into an actual niche. I had a lot of skills, you know, different, you know, jack of all trades, but for me to be in a specific niche or even a closer niche, I would say it took time versus some of my peers. Juliette Nelson: Yeah. It took them six years to go through school. I know they didn't do a master's program, but they found a niche right out of college. or right outside of their associates, or right after community, the two year, you know, or right after trade school, they found it immediately, right? And those are the narratives that we don't have. Juliette Nelson: So we don't speak about. So it's important that again, as you're networking and you're learning about people's lived experiences, you can take what fits you and what works for you, but you don't always have to feel that you're a failure because your journey doesn't look like everybody else's. And I would say those are the. Juliette Nelson: Top three [00:55:00] takeaways. Ross Romano: Excellent. Um, Juliette, do you have another book other than your own that you would recommend to your listeners? Could be on any topic, could be something you've read recently or not. Um, I will, I don't want to give you a leading question here, um, because you can choose whatever you'd like. Um, but I know in your IO psychology work and in your work with, you know, companies that diversity, equity, inclusion is a real focal area for you. Ross Romano: We didn't have time to get to that today. Talked about so many different things, but certainly that's an objective for a lot of the leaders who are listening. So if there's anything in that realm or just whatever you think our listeners may enjoy, Juliette Nelson: I will say some of my favorite reads, grit, it's by ooh, Angela Ross Romano: Angela Duckworth, yeah, Juliette Nelson: Duckworth. There we go. I, I absolutely love that book. Um, the Talent Code, I don't even remember who wrote it. I read half of it, and I, I keep failing to get to the end, but I can tell you it has good [00:56:00] stuff in it. there's also a book that I recently read. Juliette Nelson: It's called, I'm Judging You by Lovey Ajai. And it, it is a good read and it's not. It's not necessarily theoretically, theoretical or academic in nature, but it, it, she really sits and writes down all of these observations of things that us as human beings do that really kind of low key make us failures at being human. Juliette Nelson: Um, so, you know, it could be from talking about the MySpace era or posting our entire lives on social media. Or, you know, shaming people because of their, their, where they are or how they're presenting themselves. So she really covers a wide variety of things and she calls it I'm Judging You. She is judging us as humanity for all of just these things that we do that, you know, we could really do better. Juliette Nelson: Um, and it's a very good read. It's a very quick read and, and it [00:57:00] really gives you a laugh. So I would say. Um, those are my top three. The last one, um, I would call it Leadership and Self Deception. And that is a book that really calls you to self reflection. Um, but those, now I'm at my top four. So yes, those are my four, terms of DEI books. Juliette Nelson: I, I don't know that I've read as many DEI books. I, I read some articles. Um, I've sat. I recently got my certified diversity executive certification, and that was less than six months after my certified diversity professional certification so I'm coming from reading whole textbooks, and also following finishing a PhD. Juliette Nelson: So Ross Romano: there's just some light reading, right? Juliette Nelson: So I gave you the light ones. Um, perhaps I'll follow up with some of the heavier reads but, um, yeah, Ross Romano: Excellent. Well, uh, listeners, we are going to put the links below to find Juliette's book, Sharing My Lens on Amazon [00:58:00] and on her website. Juliette, is there anywhere else you'd like our listeners to check out? Any other websites or social profiles or where they can learn more about what you're working on now? Juliette Nelson: Yes, you can visit my website, um, and I'm assuming that you'll put it in the link so I don't have to spell it out, but julietnoreenelson. com. I'm also on Instagram. If you are a student, listening, feel free to add me on LinkedIn. I can share. with you the different things that I do either as an industrial and organizational psychologist, a certified diversity executive or an entrepreneur. Juliette Nelson: Um, so just make sure you, you say that you found me on the authority podcast. So I, I don't think that you're trying to scam me or sell me marketing resources. Ross Romano: Yeah. All right. I've never gotten any of those. Excellent. Well, um, yeah, listeners, please do check out those links below and subscribe to the authority for more in depth author interviews like this one, or visit bpodcast. network [00:59:00] online to learn about all of our shows. Uh, Juliet, thanks again for being on the authority. Juliette Nelson: thank you so much.