Latest / The Stephan Hogan Podcast / Rejected for 4 Years | Matthew West

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Rejected for 4 Years | Matthew West · The Stephan Hogan Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_01: The gatekeepers don't know.
0:03
SPEAKER_01: Boy, that's the That's a big no disrespect to the gatekeepers, but they don't.
0:10
SPEAKER_01: And if I'm seen now as one of the gatekeepers in the seat that I'm in, where we have a management company and we represent artists and we help champion them.
0:22
SPEAKER_01: Let me be the first to tell that artist.
0:26
SPEAKER_01: Or let me better yet, let me be the last one who comes in and postures and says, We've got the secret recipe.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: Can I stop you just for a second?
0:36
SPEAKER_01: That is so profound and so profoundly honest that I hope you don't cut that out of this episode.
0:46
SPEAKER_01: You cut out a lot of the talking I did would include that.
0:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've had artists say this song's like going crazy on socials, but it's just a section of the song.
0:56
SPEAKER_01: The rest of the song is incredibly weak.
0:59
SPEAKER_01: Like you can't, and I've had I've seen radio singles get picked off of the response to one social media post and then have it tank at radio.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: And that's that's a very dangerous game to play.
1:13
SPEAKER_01: So I it's crazy because how would music?
1:17
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a great question to ask.
1:19
SPEAKER_01: How would music be created if we weren't thinking through the lens of that 60 second or that 30 second, that real?
1:30
SPEAKER_01: I had this vision, which I don't normally talk about, like talk like this, but I had this vision of me sitting in a cabin surrounded by letters.
1:40
SPEAKER_01: And all of a sudden I had the letters.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: So I went and rented the cabin and I did that.
1:45
SPEAKER_01: I created the vision that I saw.
1:47
SPEAKER_01: And I spent si six weeks in a cabin in Fernvale.
1:51
SPEAKER_01: It was close enough to home to where I could still go home for dinner and see the family.
1:56
SPEAKER_01: But I like kind of pretended I was out in the middle of nowhere, and I spent six weeks reading people's stories and writing songs inspired by them, almost like as letters back to them.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: And I think that was a real turning point for me of going, I'm not writing a song to have a hit.
2:15
SPEAKER_01: Like it wasn't a song for the masses today.
2:18
SPEAKER_01: This song's for Renee.
2:20
SPEAKER_01: And like, I think that shifted something in me and helped me kind of go, okay, like what's understanding my why and not chasing a hit song as much as I am chasing a song for this person today.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: And then also being okay with writing a song that's it may not be for a hundred percent of the audience, but it may be for for that one percent, it might be their anthem.
2:46
SPEAKER_01: So I think if I could answer your question with an example or like put put skin on my answer, that would be a I just my mind always goes back to that cabin and reading those stories and kind of having that sort of shift the way that I thought about not just the creative process, but also what I hope the outcome would be from the creative process.
3:09
SPEAKER_02: I had Tom Tom Douglas on.
3:11
SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
3:12
SPEAKER_02: I have a great Tom Douglas story, but You'll have to tell me.
3:15
SPEAKER_02: But he said basically, he said I I he was talking about songwriting, and he was like, like, I'll use Sacramento as an example, just we were talking about earlier.
3:24
SPEAKER_02: But he's like, I'm writing a song for the mechanic with a little AMF and radio in the garage up there, and it's playing, and I'm thinking to myself, as he's hot and sweaty, and he's under the car, what does that guy need to hear today?
3:40
SPEAKER_02: And that that's like his headspace for the writing room.
3:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
3:46
SPEAKER_02: It's just the one person.
3:47
SPEAKER_02: What does that guy need to hear?
3:49
SPEAKER_02: So you saying, like, what does that specific person need to hear?
3:52
SPEAKER_01: And notice Tom didn't say a word about a program director at a radio station or or an A-level artist and what type of song they're looking for.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
4:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: And that, and he's lived that.
4:04
SPEAKER_01: What's it's just funny you mentioned Tom Douglas in response to me telling you the story about that cabin, because I remember I got a write with Tom Douglas, and I was so geared up.
4:17
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm like, this is this is the day that I write a Carrie Underwood number one, right?
4:23
SPEAKER_01: So I came in armed with what I thought were all my A-level country hooks.
4:29
SPEAKER_01: And I remember we sat upstairs at Combustion Music, and he started by saying, Well, tell me what you've been working on lately.
4:37
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, in my mind, I'm like, I want to skip past the like, let's write a hit instead.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: But he slowed me down and asked me to talk about what I was excited about.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: Well, guess what?
4:49
SPEAKER_01: I had just come out of the cabin, writing songs inspired by people's stories.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: And I guess I once I got going and telling him about this, I was telling him, I'm like, like, I got this letter from this guy named Jordan.
5:02
SPEAKER_01: And the first line of the story said, Hello, my name is Jordan, and I'm a drug addict.
5:06
SPEAKER_01: And he went on to tell me how he was this good preacher's kid.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: He got hooked on Oxy after an injury.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: He got kicked out of college, wound up as a last resort at this recovery program.
5:15
SPEAKER_01: And the last line of his letter said, I no longer introduce myself the way I used to.
5:19
SPEAKER_01: I say, Hello, my name is Jordan.
5:21
SPEAKER_01: I'm a child of the one true king.
5:23
SPEAKER_01: And then I wrote that into a song because it like spoke to me so much.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: And I guess I was getting as excited as I'm probably sounding right now.
5:32
SPEAKER_01: And he just he lit up and he just said, Can I just tell you?
5:36
SPEAKER_01: Like, I hope we write a big old number one song today.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: But all of this is like nothing compared to what you just described.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: He said, Because what you just talked about, and I remember the word he used, it was a fancy word for eternal value.
5:52
SPEAKER_01: He said, What you just talked about has eternality to it, and that's what matters.
5:57
SPEAKER_01: The rest of this, like he he used some colorful language, but he was like, the rest of this doesn't matter.
6:03
SPEAKER_01: That matters.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: And it like, it put perspective even in that writing session right there, where I was going, here I am, like this beautiful thing is taking place creatively, where people are trusting me with the most broken chapters of their story.
6:18
SPEAKER_01: And I still had stars in my eyes thinking, but if I could just get this too, and I've got this person in the room that can help me do this.
6:28
SPEAKER_01: And it just leveled everything in in such a profound way.
6:32
SPEAKER_01: So being around writers like that, and then having them kind of affirm something else that I was maybe overlooking, how special that experience was has helped me too, you know?
6:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because it's that eternality.
6:48
SPEAKER_02: It's a good word.
6:49
SPEAKER_02: Isn't that a good word?
6:50
SPEAKER_02: That's a Tom Douglas word.
6:51
SPEAKER_02: That's an expensive word.
6:52
SPEAKER_02: That is expensive, bro.
6:54
SPEAKER_02: But it drives a lot.
6:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he he has such a pace about him.
6:59
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7:33
SPEAKER_00: Nobody saw the mornings you started before sunrise, the anxiety that kept you awake, the setbacks that made you wonder if it would ever work.
7:40
SPEAKER_00: But you kept building.
7:42
SPEAKER_00: And when you finally stopped to appreciate how far you'd come, you wanted something to remember that season of your life.
7:48
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7:49
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7:53
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8:34
SPEAKER_02: You've put in the time.
8:35
SPEAKER_02: Remember it.
8:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, dude, he was cool in my interview.
8:38
SPEAKER_02: He was like, he was like Steph.
8:41
SPEAKER_02: He's like, you just.
8:43
SPEAKER_02: You're right on time, man.
8:45
SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
8:47
SPEAKER_02: You know, because we were talking about age and I was talking about the pressure.
8:51
SPEAKER_02: But it feels like to have missed the boat or whatever.
8:54
SPEAKER_02: He's like, nah, man.
8:56
SPEAKER_01: You're right on time.
8:58
SPEAKER_01: And that's coming from a guy who would he have his first hit at 40.
9:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:02
SPEAKER_01: With Little Rock.
9:04
SPEAKER_01: I mean, to hear that, I think we all need to hear that.
9:08
SPEAKER_01: Cause even now, like for me, what does it look like to have peace and knowing that I'm right on time having been in in town for a while?
9:18
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
9:19
SPEAKER_01: Because I think the right on time belief can come in handy at multiple places.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: One, when we feel like we've missed the boat, and two, when we feel like we've done it for a long time.
9:31
SPEAKER_01: Is there, you know, that whisper in your ear that talks about that tries to tell you you're not relevant anymore?
9:38
SPEAKER_01: Or you know what I mean?
9:39
SPEAKER_01: Like those kinds of thoughts too.
9:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I've struggled, I mean, for years with I I was listening to your interview with Bear from Need to Breathe, and a lot of it resonated with me, like growing up in church and like trying to like I don't know, like feeling the pressure to be perfect as a as a preacher's kid, and then seeing how that seeped into like now here I am as a performer for a career, and like the spiritual struggle of going, like, if I do a good enough job for God, then he'll be proud of me.
10:12
SPEAKER_01: If my song gets number two and not number one, then it's not gonna have as much impact.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: Like the parallels between my relationship with God and like the flawed way of thinking I can have in my career, like it's pretty crazy how similar it is.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: But but that thought of being right on time helps me now, having been in Nashville for a long time, of going like, I don't like what if my second act could have more eternality than the first act.
10:42
SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
10:43
SPEAKER_01: Like, what does that look like?
10:45
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
10:45
SPEAKER_01: I think you doing your podcast is a great example of that.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: Of like, we think we know how God wants to use us in our lives, but then there's like we should like we should always draw our borders with pencil because I've seen and I'm seeing it right now, just like how like God's showing me, like there's other ways that I'm gonna use you.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: And like I love examples like Tom of going.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: That should give hope to songwriters, you know, and not just songwriters, but any walk of life, at any stage you're in, you're not disqualified from making an impact in the world.
11:21
SPEAKER_02: What would you go back until the 25 version, a 25-year-old version of yourself?
11:27
SPEAKER_01: There's so many things I would say.
11:30
SPEAKER_01: Number one, I mean, from a from just a life standpoint, I would say like, don't let the message of guilt like ring louder in your ears than the message of grace.
11:42
SPEAKER_01: Like, I think How so?
11:44
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think it's funny because like 14 albums later, I've still talk like the first song I put out on this new record, the first line says, I used to think grace was a ladder that every sinner had to climb.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: If only I could just do better, I could earn it over time.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, I tried to work my way to good.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: The trouble is I never could.
12:05
SPEAKER_01: And that's like that's literally my life journal of going like that's I don't know how I got to that way of thinking, but I mean my dad preached the message of God's grace every day, but somehow it got twisted for me to hear the message of like guilt and shame even more.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's probably why the word grace is in my songs more than any other word, because it's a message that I need to keep coming back to.
12:35
SPEAKER_01: I think about like I've got two daughters now, and my relationship with them, I think probably more than anything has helped me better understand what grace is.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: And I was thinking about this the other night because I had my daughter come up and she sings a song with me on tour, and she sings that song.
12:56
SPEAKER_01: And I'm sitting there and I'm listening to my daughter sing, and I'm thinking, this is it would kill me if my daughter thought when I'm when I'm good, dad loves me.
13:07
SPEAKER_01: But when I mess up, he withholds that love.
13:11
SPEAKER_01: Like that's not that's not the heart of this father.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: And I felt like honestly, I felt like God was like saying, Well, why do you live like you think that's how I am with you?
13:23
SPEAKER_01: Like, I love you on your best day, but I love you on your worst day too, you know what I mean?
13:29
SPEAKER_01: So I think that'd probably be the first thing I would go back and tell a younger me, like, take a deep breath, exhale, remember that like your worst day is not gonna define you, that God loves you on your worst day.
13:43
SPEAKER_01: And then from I think a career standpoint, I'd say calm down, you know, like drive is good, but you know it's gonna be okay, like you're gonna you've got a great work ethic, you know, but don't let that kind of drive you to where you nothing feels like it was a big enough success.
14:06
SPEAKER_01: I think I've struggled with that.
14:08
SPEAKER_01: I had a a lady at that was like kind of mentoring me a little bit, and she just let me talk, kind of like you're letting me talk today.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: And she said something that I thought was really important.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: She's like, you know, it feels like you don't you don't have anybody around you helping you draw a circle around what a good job looks like.
14:27
SPEAKER_01: And because you have never drawn a circle around whatever initiative, whatever it is you're pursuing, you never know if you even get close to the bullseye of that circle.
14:37
SPEAKER_01: So then even a success can feel like a failure because you never drew a circle.
14:42
SPEAKER_01: And so, like, one of the things with my team now is like just even from a tactical standpoint, like we draw a circle around what we hope the outcome will be for something.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: And it's been crazy because it's like then you at least know, like, hey, we got 80% of the weight, let's high five over this.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: So I've always struggled to celebrate like the wins because the wins somehow can still feel like losses if you're not if you don't have a healthy kind of perspective on things.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: And I think drawing a circle has helped me in that way.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
15:18
SPEAKER_01: It's probably helped me.
15:20
SPEAKER_02: It's almost like a boundary.
15:22
SPEAKER_02: Like I think of boundaries is like resistance, but this is like a boundary of like celebration.
15:31
SPEAKER_02: But on the same way, I think a lot of people are that are in entertainment.
15:35
SPEAKER_01: Do you have a hard time celebrating the wins?
15:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:38
SPEAKER_01: What does it feel like?
15:40
SPEAKER_01: Like when you achieve something, like what's the first negative thought that comes in even after a win?
15:46
SPEAKER_02: I'll tell you right now, when you say uh what was your question?
15:50
SPEAKER_02: When you achieve something, yeah.
15:52
SPEAKER_02: I would say I've achieved nothing.
15:55
SPEAKER_02: Right off the bat.
15:56
SPEAKER_02: That's my brain goes.
15:57
SPEAKER_01: Even though when I come in, I'm like, dude, I've been following you on socials, I watch your clips, you're doing like you're still going, no, this because you're seeing what it what it hasn't become yet, or I think I'm a little confused on it.
16:12
SPEAKER_02: Like on what a good job looks like?
16:14
SPEAKER_02: No, no.
16:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, on what a good job looks like.
16:17
SPEAKER_02: And I think the the way that I determine success is based off of the amount of the the way I determine stress is how much or success.
16:33
SPEAKER_02: Did I say stress?
16:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:35
SPEAKER_02: The way I determine success is how much stress I can relieve from how much success or strength.
16:44
SPEAKER_02: S word screw me up, dude.
16:47
SPEAKER_02: The way I determine it is how much like my success is how much uncertainty can I remove from my wife's life.
16:57
SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
17:00
SPEAKER_02: And until I get to the point where I feel like there's a significant level of certainty, I will feel like a failure.
17:09
SPEAKER_01: Well, the family component certainly is the weight that I've felt for a long time, too.
17:16
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a fair and I think if you didn't feel that stress, you probably wouldn't be a good provider for your family.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: Definitely is a driver.
17:26
SPEAKER_02: But I But like this last year, I had a Vince Gilcut.
17:30
SPEAKER_02: It was you know, really massive.
17:32
SPEAKER_02: And um, but uh was one of the best people in the whole world, by the way.
17:35
SPEAKER_02: He is, you yeah, we wrote a tune together and it was one on his project on the one this the one that had this white telly on it, because he did a bunch of EPs, and that's a guitar that like we had met over, and I played Liza Jane in that guitar competition I was telling you about.
17:51
SPEAKER_02: So it was a full circle moment, and it was really exciting, but but then I'm like, Well, you're gonna make no money off of it, it's not gonna get radio play.
18:01
SPEAKER_02: And that's where my brain goes instead of being the stress of prom No, just like like like you were talking about with Tom Douglas.
18:08
SPEAKER_02: I want to come in and write a number one, I want to write the next house to build me.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: You know what I'm saying?
18:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like what's the what's the value of this copyright?
18:15
SPEAKER_01: What's the yeah, what's the value?
18:17
SPEAKER_02: You know, what's the win?
18:19
SPEAKER_02: And I don't have boundaries on the wins, I don't think.
18:21
SPEAKER_02: So I've never heard it put that way.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't know.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: I've never been into the Enneagram, but um I'm a th three-wing four.
18:30
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so we're gonna be friends.
18:32
SPEAKER_01: Okay, because that's exactly I don't know what I don't I don't remember my wing because I was so wrecked by the realization of like the unhealthy side of a three.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: But I was doing I had a podcast for a while and I was doing it um with uh do you know Annie Downs?
18:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm terrible.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: She's a podcaster, and but she did this whole like Enneagram series, and she had a guest uh on that represented each number, and they talked about it.
18:59
SPEAKER_01: And it's it's crazy because the three that she had on is now somebody I work with.
19:04
SPEAKER_01: She works at uh a record label for an artist that we manage.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: And one of the things they talked about with a three, I heard somebody say this, it was like a three has a hard time staying for the confetti to fall.
19:19
SPEAKER_01: And I was on a walk, it was during the COVID pandemic, and I like when I I felt like somebody was reading my mail, and I felt so much shame over the unhealthiness of my three, where I was like, I can celebrate, I could celebrate your win way better than I could celebrate mine.
19:37
SPEAKER_01: Like, and I think there, and maybe there is, I probably share in like the the stress of I think there's a lot of definitions of success that have been placed on us.
19:48
SPEAKER_01: Like when you talk about the Vince Gills song, like it's not enough to celebrate, holy cow, I got to write a song with a legend, one of the most talented people to ever step into Nashville.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: Two, it's he actually's cutting it, right?
20:07
SPEAKER_01: So one would be you got to step in the room with him.
20:09
SPEAKER_01: That's massive.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm celebrating that already, just hearing you talk about it.
20:13
SPEAKER_01: Wait, he's cutting the song?
20:15
SPEAKER_01: Because what happens is all the other elements of like, yeah, but how's the streaming gonna be?
20:20
SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna be a radio single, da-da-da.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's not gonna be a copy, you know.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: Maybe when I go to settle a catalog, they're not gonna see much value in all those kinds of things.
20:29
SPEAKER_01: Like, I can understand there's a lot of reasons why we don't see the confetti falling, even when other people are going, they're throwing the confetti at you, right?
20:38
SPEAKER_01: Your wife's probably going, You got a Vince Gilcutt.
20:42
SPEAKER_01: This is unbelievable.
20:43
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
20:44
SPEAKER_01: I have my family around me doing the same thing.
20:46
SPEAKER_01: Like my team had to throw a celebration for the release of my last album because they knew that my tendency was to wake up the next day and go, All right, what's next?
20:59
SPEAKER_01: It was the next album.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's after 14 records.
21:02
SPEAKER_01: I still will struggle with that.
21:04
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
21:05
SPEAKER_01: So, but it's also made me better at celebrating the artist that we work with.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: And or like if I write a song with another artist for their record and it helps launch what they're doing, like I find myself it's way easier for me to just have genuine joy and excitement for that artist than it is for me to go, I don't know.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: I don't know what I'm still figuring it out.
21:29
SPEAKER_02: I I think that wiring comes from being praised as a kid growing up, and your w self worth is tied to performance.
21:43
SPEAKER_02: So if I'm performing well, then I'm worthy of praise, and then it somehow creates a wiring in your brain that like I have to be performing all the time.
21:54
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
21:56
SPEAKER_02: And then if I'm not performing, I suck.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: Or if I performed and it didn't hit my my internal like benchmark that I didn't even have set for myself, um, you know, I'm missing the confetti.
22:12
SPEAKER_02: I'm on to the next thing.
22:14
SPEAKER_01: I I would make a record and refuse to listen to it until years later.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: Like this in fact, maybe this is a sign of growth.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, but this last record, I released it and I went for a run.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: We were playing a show in California, and I I forced myself to listen to the entire record on my run.
22:38
SPEAKER_01: And that was the first time ever that I listened to something I had made on the day of its release.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: And I was able to the I honestly, I was able for the first time to go okay, like I love what I created, and you know what?
22:55
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's even this is the hard part, is I think it's getting harder because when you're like the amount of time we have to spend creating content to try to tell people about what you've created, like it almost eclipses the amount of time you actually spent making it, and there's all these different metrics that are telling you what isn't getting traction that your why has to become even clearer, I think, than ever before.
23:24
SPEAKER_01: And so now it's the I'm not writing a song for them, I'm writing a song for Renee.
23:29
SPEAKER_01: It's that, but then it's also like I need to love what I'm making.
23:34
SPEAKER_01: Like when I'm going to make a record, you know how diff like the most defeating stat that has been brought to my attention in recent years is streams per listener and realizing that your average listener, like Morgan Wallins, is probably 13.5 songs or something.
23:53
SPEAKER_01: I think the last time I looked at, I was just curious, right?
23:55
SPEAKER_01: So that would be the average listener is going to his page and sticking around for so he can make a 38-song album, and they're gonna stick around for a good bit of that journey.
24:05
SPEAKER_01: But for someone like me, when I heard a number and it was like 4.3 or something, I'm like, okay, how do I reconcile that knowing I just made a 12-song album and going, so these eight are just gonna fall off a cliff?
24:24
SPEAKER_01: Like, what's what's my motivation?
24:27
SPEAKER_01: And having the the eternality words that Tom Douglas spoke to me years ago, having these the cabin experience, all those types of things I think are helping to fuel like why I would still go make a record, but also going, I'm gonna create something that's not just a bunch of songs on a record.
24:47
SPEAKER_01: I want to do, I want to create some through lines here.
24:50
SPEAKER_01: And I and creatively, there may be moments that only me, myself, and I are aware of how this song connects to this one and how this one has a cousin in track seven.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: Like those things have to be, those things still have to fuel me because I can't control the outcome.
25:07
SPEAKER_01: I can't force a listener to go past 4.3 songs.
25:11
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
25:12
SPEAKER_01: And I still have to find so, even now more than ever, I think the importance of drawing a circle around what a good job looks like creatively, professionally, all of that.
25:23
SPEAKER_02: Otherwise, so can you give me an example?
25:25
SPEAKER_02: Alex Heike, the founder of Sound Royalties and a friend of mine gave me a piece of advice that I'm never gonna forget.
25:31
SPEAKER_02: He said, first decide what is the right move for your career and then figure out how to fund it.
25:35
SPEAKER_02: Soundroyalties helped artists, they help writers, they help producers, they help YouTubers and other people that earn royalties, figure out how to access capital without having to sell their catalogs, give up ownership, or their copyrights.
25:48
SPEAKER_02: Their funding is completely based on your royalty income, not your credit score.
25:52
SPEAKER_02: There's no personal guarantees.
25:53
SPEAKER_02: Go to soundroyalties.com slash Stefan Hogan Podcast, S-T-E-P-H-A-N Hogan podcast for a complimentary royalty analysis and free income forecasting.
26:06
SPEAKER_02: Fill out the form, and a royalty specialist is gonna hit you up within one business day.
26:12
SPEAKER_02: Or you can also click the link in the description below.
26:15
SPEAKER_02: So first decide what the right move is for your career, then figure out how to fund it.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: Um okay, so first of all, we talked about this a little bit uh over coffee before we started talking, but for me, one of my I've heard a lot of your guests, I love how they verbalize their um kind of foundational like the principles, like how they, you know, when it comes to engagement or vulnerability or you know, the different different Chris is vulnerable, different, valuable.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: There you go.
26:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
26:51
SPEAKER_01: So for me, something I and I think maybe we're all saying similar things, but I just love how unique everybody's mind works.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: And for me, something that struck me years ago that I only recently was able to kind of like put down on paper and say, oh, this makes sense to me.
27:10
SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's gonna make sense as we now pour into other artists that we help champion and writers.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: But the idea is I feel like so many of our efforts are a mile wide, and you're just throwing stuff at a wall.
27:26
SPEAKER_01: It's it's a nonstop flood of social media content, and you're and I would call social media content would be the definition of a mile wide.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: Like half the time you release, you post something and it's not even being fed, you know.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: I think I've got 700,000 on Instagram, but there's no way this post is going to even more than a small portion of that.
27:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
27:49
SPEAKER_02: We know most of it is gonna be seen on the for you page by non-followers.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: And so our mission, my mission as an artist, but also with the artists that we work with and our team is like, okay, we're gonna counter every mile wide initiative, which they all have their place of importance.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: It's you can't be you can't be void of social media efforts and things like that.
28:11
SPEAKER_01: But for every mile wide, we're gonna go a mile deep.
28:14
SPEAKER_01: And what does that look like?
28:16
SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, well, what does it look like to have to make sure that I'm getting the chance to like I found out on Facebook that there was this somebody started this Facebook group and it they called it the Matthew West Support Group, and it had gotten 3,000 people following it.
28:33
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, why, first of all, why wasn't that on my radar?
28:38
SPEAKER_01: Second of all, shame on me for not even being aware of it.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: Third, how can I thank these people for being that supportive of me, even though I hadn't even created an ecosystem for them to engage?
28:53
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I was saying, like, growing up, like the more I loved finding an artist before they were huge, and then the bigger they got, it felt like the less access I had to them.
29:03
SPEAKER_01: And so that's one of my big like drawing a circle around what a good job job looks like on an album release, or really just even in between releases is like creating successfully mile-deep initiatives.
29:17
SPEAKER_01: So, like, even on this record, for example, I know the 4.3 streams per listener, I know that stat, but what does a good job look like?
29:26
SPEAKER_01: Well, I want to invite the people who are who are that smaller group of people who are like really committed and dug in with me, I want to invite and provide them opportunities to go deeper should they want to take the journey of the whole album.
29:44
SPEAKER_01: So we created this cool website, which was like inviting you to take the journey of this whole album.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: And it was, and I love what we created.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: And is it gonna be for the masses?
29:57
SPEAKER_01: No.
29:58
SPEAKER_01: But for those select few that want to dive in song by song, and we created all these cool archives and like here's the voice memo when the song was created.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: It sounds terrible.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: I was on a walk, you know, here's the video of this, like just and here's a devotional that goes along with it.
30:14
SPEAKER_01: And we're gonna do a 12-week series on the theme of this album in each week.
30:19
SPEAKER_01: And again, that's a smaller group of people that want to take that journey.
30:23
SPEAKER_01: But for that group, every Thursday, they're getting an email, and it has nothing to do with streaming my music, it has everything to do with hey, here's a quiet time devotional that I wrote inspired by my own quiet time.
30:36
SPEAKER_01: And if it can encourage you today, then you know what I mean?
30:39
SPEAKER_01: So I think that to me, I'm high-fiving my team going like, these are some ways that we've gone a mile deep in in a world that's you know, really spending a bulk of its time going a mile wide with the fans or the listeners.
30:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the vanity metrics.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, man.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: And it's hard not to get wrapped up in that.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, right now, I'm watching our TikTok account and the team, and I'm like, it feels like we're in like jail.
31:07
SPEAKER_01: Like, why?
31:08
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: It's just like 50 posts in a row, and like while we're releasing an album, and you're like hoping something breaks, and it's just like same views, same views, same views, and you're like, okay, we can't we have to obviously we're gonna always try different things, we're gonna do this, that, and the other, but we can't be slaves to that as well.
31:29
SPEAKER_01: We have to like, because otherwise it makes it harder to let the confetti fall and stick around and like celebrate.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: And I when I talk about the confetti falling, like if something fails, it fails.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
31:41
SPEAKER_01: If some I think I've learned another mile deep initiative was like we created a little eight-minute mini documentary where and I just was vulnerable about the what we're talking about, just the struggles of like not being able to control the outcome.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: You know, if a tree falls in the forest and nobody's there to hear it, does it make a sound?
32:04
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes that's how it feels when you make a record.
32:06
SPEAKER_01: Like a release day can be the most depressing day of any day.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because you see like, well, this artist has new heat, and I don't have new heat, I've been around a minute, so what is it?
32:18
SPEAKER_01: Or oh, we couldn't get that television appearance or whatever, and it's like, okay, I there's there's certain outcomes I can't control.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: So again, drawing the circle around what a good job looks like, I think has been healthier for me and healthier for my team around me.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: Because nobody wants to work with somebody who's looking at everything like a failure.
32:40
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
32:41
SPEAKER_01: Like that's that's not how you motivate a team either.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: So I'm learning in that.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: Is that the biggest leadership principle you think you've learned?
32:51
SPEAKER_02: You mean not feeling like everything's a failure?
32:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: Or at least benchmarking successes.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: I think one of the leadership principles I'm learning because I I sort of reluctantly stepped into this role, and I think this goes back to learning that like your second act can have just as much impact, if not more, is I think just learning I've messed up a lot of things over the years.
33:17
SPEAKER_01: Like I was the artist that switched from I think I had five different management companies represent me at different points and like would lose momentum by but a lot of it was like this it was never enough.
33:30
SPEAKER_01: It was never enough.
33:31
SPEAKER_01: And I took the long way to discover, well, I'm just gonna start my own management company.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: And kind of, I think sometimes we don't give credit enough to how the failures teach us.
33:43
SPEAKER_01: And you look up one day and I I kind of describe it as being like becoming an accidental expert.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
33:50
SPEAKER_01: Where it's like all of a sudden I'm being brought in.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: You know, I write with a lot of other artists for their projects, and they would start asking me music business questions.
34:00
SPEAKER_01: And a writer would say, Hey, can you look at this contract?
34:03
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, Oh, I know how to help you with this contract because I signed a really bad one back in the day.
34:11
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
34:12
SPEAKER_01: And now, so I do think, like, from a leadership principle, yes, like celebrating the wins, drawing a circle around what a good job looks like, encouraging the artists to not be so consumed with the mile wide, but like, what does it look like to really love on the people who are leaning in?
34:30
SPEAKER_01: And then from a leadership standpoint, like the failure is guiding me and like helping it gives me great joy to help an artist or a writer avoid one of the pitfalls, or maybe even skip a step that some of those things were necessary for my path.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: You know, I remember when I first signed my first record deal, I had a real estate attorney from my hometown look at the deal.
34:58
SPEAKER_01: And I remember the first record deal was one plus seven options.
35:06
SPEAKER_01: So it was an eight album deal.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: And at the beginning, I was like, oh, that means they think I'm gonna be have staying power, but I didn't realize that meant no, that just means if something works, we've got you for the next 20 years or whatever, right?
35:23
SPEAKER_01: So to be able to like help with another artist as they're signing their deal to go like, okay, this is how this works.
35:30
SPEAKER_01: And I learned that the hard way.
35:32
SPEAKER_01: So I think maybe that would be one of my other main leadership principles is like like letting the failures like teach you, and then you get to pay that forward by helping somebody else maybe avoid you know, some of those things that I went through.
35:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:51
SPEAKER_02: Do you know who Jocko is uh willing?
35:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:55
SPEAKER_02: Have you read uh extreme ownership ownership?
36:00
SPEAKER_02: I heard somebody talking about this the other day, but I need to read it.
36:02
SPEAKER_02: You need to.
36:02
SPEAKER_02: Is it awesome?
36:03
SPEAKER_02: It's amazing, man.
36:05
SPEAKER_02: Uh, but every time someone fails, he says good.
36:09
SPEAKER_02: So, like when he's looking over a group of guys, it's like something didn't go right on the mission or whatever, there was a malfunction.
36:17
SPEAKER_02: He always they'd come to him and be like, hey, this has happened.
36:20
SPEAKER_02: And they always knew what his answer was gonna be, which is good.
36:24
SPEAKER_02: That means next time, that's not gonna happen.
36:28
SPEAKER_02: Well, that means next time, you know.
36:31
SPEAKER_02: So that's like anything bad, he would always say good.
36:34
SPEAKER_02: And so that's been a reframe for me.
36:38
SPEAKER_02: You know, like, oh, this season really sucks.
36:41
SPEAKER_02: That was really hard.
36:42
SPEAKER_02: I really kicked my butt.
36:44
SPEAKER_02: Good, because now it's made you a better husband or a better man, absolutely, better at whatever.
36:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, and it's like all that growth stuff happens in the uncomfortable parts, and we would never wish for it.
37:00
SPEAKER_01: You know, I I I think I look back now with nothing but gratitude for every one of those bad situations that I can go good.
37:13
SPEAKER_01: I can see the good.
37:14
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the power of perspective when we look over our shoulder.
37:19
SPEAKER_01: I wish it could help inform the way I look at what's ahead of me better.
37:24
SPEAKER_01: But I'm still always like tempted to freak out when something less than good is happening.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: But pound for pound, chapter for chapter, I can look back and go, oh, that vocal cord surgery that threatened my dream, that was bad.
37:43
SPEAKER_01: Good because I can see what God did in my life through that.
37:47
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
37:48
SPEAKER_01: Both spiritually and professionally.
37:49
SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, getting rejected from every label for four years was bad.
37:56
SPEAKER_01: But the good was I became an everyday songwriter, and God was gonna like help me see a bigger picture that He was gonna use me as a songwriter, not just the guy on stage.
38:07
SPEAKER_01: Like, I I could I could literally, as I'm sitting here with you, I can look back and I could list no shortage of.
38:16
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a long list of those bad that I can see the good now, you know.
38:21
SPEAKER_01: So we need those voices in our lives saying that to us.
38:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, dude.
38:24
SPEAKER_02: And and you as a artist and writer, haven't you had 40 number ones?
38:30
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
38:32
SPEAKER_02: So all of that writing and being rejected, you're just honing, you know, you're sharpening your songwriting blade.
38:40
SPEAKER_01: But even as you said that, this is why maybe we're gonna get along well.
38:44
SPEAKER_01: But even as you said that, I was just tempted to say what I'm about to say was you have no idea how many number twos there were.
38:52
SPEAKER_01: Like, I I don't I hate that my mind thinks that.
38:55
SPEAKER_01: How many number twos?
38:58
SPEAKER_01: Do you know?
38:59
SPEAKER_01: I haven't counted them, but it is.
39:02
SPEAKER_02: If you're around Music Row, you've probably heard of Studio Bank or know someone that bangs with them, and there's a reason for that.
39:08
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39:16
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39:20
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39:22
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39:25
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39:39
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39:46
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39:50
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39:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, maybe just as many, to be honest with you.
39:56
SPEAKER_01: Like, or whatever, like the the songs that like it's like, you know what, I would get annoyed.
40:03
SPEAKER_01: You ever listen to like a Tom Brady interview and how he would talk about like he remembers the Super Bowl he lost?
40:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:09
SPEAKER_01: It's like, what is that about like competitors and like driven people that do you know what I'm saying?
40:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, dude.
40:18
SPEAKER_01: But can I tell you one of the biggest things that comes back to me over and over again?
40:22
SPEAKER_01: It's like I've had number ones that had less impact than a song that didn't test well at radio.
40:29
SPEAKER_01: Like I've had, do you know what I mean?
40:31
SPEAKER_01: So I think I've learned like right now, I go on tour and I sing the song that was a number one from this new record.
40:40
SPEAKER_01: And it feels really special, feels amazing.
40:43
SPEAKER_01: But there's a song that I would play that's just an album cut that will probably that most of the listeners might not get past the 4.3 streams to find.
40:53
SPEAKER_01: But playing that one live, it was like this that'll never be on the radio.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: But the way the crowd rallied around that song was like, okay, help me remember again this song for this person.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
41:06
SPEAKER_01: And that song was like partially inspired by we bring a group of uh people every night to our shows who are going through a recovery program that wouldn't otherwise be able to come.
41:17
SPEAKER_01: And it's a song called The Good Fight.
41:19
SPEAKER_01: And I would say every night I'd be like, where are you guys at?
41:22
SPEAKER_01: And they would cheer.
41:24
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, this is a song for them.
41:26
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, I'm not thinking about radio.
41:29
SPEAKER_01: I'm not thinking about that.
41:30
SPEAKER_01: But but yes, to your point about like the the rejection that I was putting in the 10,000 hours as a songwriter, and that's something too.
41:39
SPEAKER_01: Like I wish a lot of artists could have that season.
41:44
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes when artists get success too soon, there are some necessary steps that can get skipped, and then they can make it more challenging for you to have longevity.
41:55
SPEAKER_01: Because I do think strictly from a music standpoint, like the songwriting I think is where the longevity can be more easily attained or or become more realistic.
42:06
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
42:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, I may not be the coolest guy, you know.
42:10
SPEAKER_01: I learned that early on when the record labels, one of their biggest critiques of me, I just wasn't like rock star material.
42:16
SPEAKER_01: Like, and I remember just being like, oh, well, maybe I should wear this jacket, or I should, you know what I mean?
42:21
SPEAKER_01: I used to do this goofy thing in my shows.
42:24
SPEAKER_01: It started, I was playing college campuses, and when you play college campuses, like your audience is like transient.
42:33
SPEAKER_01: Like I'd be University of South Dakota at lunchtime.
42:37
SPEAKER_01: They called it a nooner, and they'd set you up in the cafeteria singing while the kids are walking by.
42:44
SPEAKER_01: And I would play a I'd play Drops of Jupiter or you know, Meet Virginia, or Hold My Hand by Hootie and the Blowfish.
42:52
SPEAKER_01: Then I'd throw in an original, nobody's paying attention.
42:55
SPEAKER_01: So somebody's throwing tater tots at me, and I start making up a song about the guy in the red sweatshirt, and his buddies think it's hilarious, and I'm just improving.
43:07
SPEAKER_01: And the crowd starts to gather as they weren't interested in the real songs I was singing, but they loved the little Adam Sandler moment.
43:16
SPEAKER_01: So I started doing that in my shows, and record labels would come and see me, and I would, you know, I'm playing for all these kids at a youth group or something, and I'd make up a song.
43:25
SPEAKER_01: It was the kids' favorite moment of the show, but the record labels would pass on me because they thought it was corny.
43:31
SPEAKER_01: So you just learn along the way, and guess what?
43:34
SPEAKER_01: To this day, I'll get up on stage and make up a song or whatever about the city I'm in, and the crowd just like loves it.
43:43
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
43:44
SPEAKER_01: So you kind of get a little more comfortable in your own skin over the years, too.
43:49
SPEAKER_01: I don't know why I just talked about that.
43:52
SPEAKER_01: I was probably off topic, but no, dude.
43:54
SPEAKER_02: I liked that story, and that's interesting that a label would pass on you because you're connecting with.
44:00
SPEAKER_02: The crowd.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they were like, no, that's that's kind of kind of cheesy, you know.
44:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
44:06
SPEAKER_02: The gatekeepers don't know.
44:09
SPEAKER_01: Boy, that's the that's a big no disrespect to the gatekeepers, but they don't.
44:17
SPEAKER_01: And if I'm seen now as one of the gatekeepers in this in the seat that I'm in, where we have a management company and we represent artists and we help champion them, let me be the first to tell that artist, or let better yet, let me be the last one who comes in in postures and says, we've got the secret recipe for how to make you go viral, or how to, you know what I mean?
44:43
SPEAKER_01: Like, yes, there's there's different, you know, approaches you can take, there's different strategies you can apply, all of that stuff.
44:50
SPEAKER_01: But the more and more you meet with the powers that be, the more you realize everybody's just trying to figure it out.
44:58
SPEAKER_01: And they don't, you know what I mean?
45:00
SPEAKER_01: Like, so even when we're looking at artists to work with, like, I want to come at it with an open mind.
45:06
SPEAKER_01: I don't ever want to be the guy that, well, that's not cool enough.
45:09
SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
45:10
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm looking for authentic.
45:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm looking for, and if that's if what you do is authentic and it's not like what's hot right now, like I'm still drawn to that and I want to figure out a lane for that.
45:25
SPEAKER_02: I wonder what music would be like if social media wasn't a part of the equation where we went into creation like mode without those.
45:37
SPEAKER_02: Like, you're almost writing a song through.
45:40
SPEAKER_02: Is this gonna be a hook?
45:41
SPEAKER_02: Is this gonna it's like a TikTok song?
45:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
45:44
SPEAKER_02: Like is does the verse start soon enough?
45:46
SPEAKER_02: Does the course hit fast enough?
45:47
SPEAKER_02: Is it sketchy enough?
45:48
SPEAKER_02: Are they gonna be able to sing a course by the second chorus?
45:50
SPEAKER_02: I would I feel like the whole way that create art is being created is being influenced by social media and short attention spans.
45:58
SPEAKER_02: I a hundred percent.
45:59
SPEAKER_01: And I think I'm maybe I'd be more successful if I thought about that more in my writing process, but I'm I'm just not gonna do that.
46:08
SPEAKER_01: Now, you may see it where like the intro of a song is shorter or whatever, you know what I mean?
46:14
SPEAKER_01: But I still I mean, we see it in Christian music too, where like a a section of a song.
46:20
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've had artists say this song's like going crazy on socials, but it's just a section of the song.
46:26
SPEAKER_01: But the rest of the song is incredibly weak.
46:28
SPEAKER_01: Like you can't, and I've had I've seen radio singles get picked off of the response to one social media post and then have it tank at radio.
46:40
SPEAKER_01: And that's that's a very dangerous game to play.
46:43
SPEAKER_01: So I it's crazy because how would music I think that's a great question to ask.
46:48
SPEAKER_01: How would music be created if we weren't thinking through the lens of that 60 second or that 30 second, that real this and then just I mean, standing and lip-syncing to all of our songs constantly.
47:03
SPEAKER_02: It's like oh I think people are over it, man.
47:06
SPEAKER_02: I think organic's the game, authenticity.
47:08
SPEAKER_02: Uh Rick Rubin always says, consider the audience last.
47:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I've wrestled that was a viral clip, ironically.
47:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:17
SPEAKER_01: I've wrestled with that.
47:18
SPEAKER_01: Like, do you do you think that's a hundred percent like when he said think of the audience last, like tell the basically he's saying you tell the audience what not what to like, but that was kind of the roundabout sentiment he was expressing, right?
47:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they they don't know what they like until like you pro you it's almost like offering up a new dish.
47:42
SPEAKER_02: And it's like, man, I've never been to Japan and I've never eaten that, but I don't know if I like it or not, but I tried it and it was good.
47:52
SPEAKER_02: And then I tried it again, and I like it even more.
47:56
SPEAKER_02: And I think of all these like artists that are records behind me, and it's like I don't think any of them are thinking about social media.
48:05
SPEAKER_02: The legends, the ones that the legends, staying power.
48:08
SPEAKER_02: They weren't thinking, and I bet you you know, throughout your career, especially before the social media craziness, you weren't thinking about TikToks when you were writing songs.
48:20
SPEAKER_02: You're thinking about a good song.
48:23
SPEAKER_01: But even then, though, I was thinking about okay, the Teak House at Millican University in Decatur, Illinois, invited me to come in and they're shutting down the dance floor and they want me to come and sing my songs.
48:40
SPEAKER_01: Even then, I was still thinking about who I was going to be singing for.
48:44
SPEAKER_01: So I like that I think maybe that's why I've wrestled with what Rick Rubin said because can you hold both things?
48:51
SPEAKER_01: Like, can you hold what Tom Douglas said about I'm thinking about the mechanic?
48:57
SPEAKER_01: Like, I think that's beautiful and I think that's important to think about the listener and want to connect.
49:06
SPEAKER_01: Like years ago, I I was like, okay, if I could boil down what I feel like my mission is in one word, and the word connect was what kept come, I kept coming back to like connecting to the hearts of people and then hopefully connecting them to God's heart for them.
49:24
SPEAKER_01: Like his, like that, that's in a nutshell, like what I feel like a core mission of my music has been.
49:31
SPEAKER_01: But I don't know how you connect to the hearts of people without like seeking to know what they're going through and then want to write to that.
49:40
SPEAKER_01: So maybe my cabin experience has shifted like my ability to go think of the audience last.
49:48
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
49:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, or maybe it's just think of the one.
49:52
SPEAKER_02: I try to I try to use that as my podcast thing.
49:54
SPEAKER_02: If this episode helps one person, yeah, produces fruit in one person's life, then it was worth it.
50:00
SPEAKER_01: So you are thinking of the audience, but you're not thinking about the mass appeal.
50:05
SPEAKER_01: Is that no?
50:06
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
50:07
SPEAKER_02: It's like um, and it's yesterday we were in the airport, and someone was like, Hey man, I really like your podcast.
50:15
SPEAKER_02: And that was the first time that ever happened to me.
50:18
SPEAKER_02: And um, it was actually a really cool moment because I was like, I wonder if someday that's gonna happen.
50:24
SPEAKER_02: Because there's another podcaster that talks about sometimes he'll be in airports and people in a photo or whatever.
50:30
SPEAKER_02: But he was just like, and I was like, What do you like about it?
50:32
SPEAKER_02: And he was like, Well, I like that you go deeper or whatever, and that you so um that's awesome.
50:38
SPEAKER_02: That that got me stoked, man.
50:40
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I guess kind of carrying the torch of just think about the one person, just that guy's name was Derek, just thinking about you know, the Dereks of the world, like it connected with that one person, and I'll never know who's on the other side listening to this conversation or who that person is that it produced fruit in their life.
51:01
SPEAKER_02: But that's the mission I try to like stay on.
51:04
SPEAKER_01: We would always like, you know, in the beginning of doing this, it there was always this thought, and we would always say, like, if you reach just one person, right?
51:14
SPEAKER_01: And but like I always struggled from like I call it empty seat syndrome.
51:20
SPEAKER_01: Like I could be in a theater and there could be a thousand people there to see our show, but the theater seats 1,500.
51:29
SPEAKER_01: And my eyes, if I'm not careful, would immediately find the empty seats.
51:34
SPEAKER_01: And what's funny is my dad, who preached at the same church for 38 years, he's like, I think you inherited that from me because he would get up to preach and his eyes would see the empty seat.
51:46
SPEAKER_01: And so, like, I do think there's so much power and fruit to be had and found and discovered and fulfillment in our lives of going, like, like, and I've I dealt with it on this tour too, of going, gosh, I've done this for how long, and this particular city didn't sell out or whatever.
52:05
SPEAKER_01: But then, like, forcibly looking for the people in that crowd who like for them, like this was like this was a special thing.
52:18
SPEAKER_01: Like, they cared enough to make a poster.
52:20
SPEAKER_01: They cared enough to like they're in the, you know, one guy in the front row, and he has his shirt says front row or don't go to Matthew.
52:28
SPEAKER_01: Like, he's it's like, okay, like God forgive me for like focusing on the empty seats when like this person is dialed in.
52:39
SPEAKER_01: This seven-year-old kid is singing every single word of every song, like that.
52:45
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
52:46
SPEAKER_01: So I think there's such power to that, and I think it just goes to show like I mean, God's blessings are all around us.
52:53
SPEAKER_01: How many times do we miss it in in everything in life?
52:56
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
52:57
SPEAKER_01: Because we're looking for what's next.
52:59
SPEAKER_01: Think of it as parenthood too.
53:01
SPEAKER_01: Like, you got a little one, you know, mine or older.
53:04
SPEAKER_01: You know, I remember people saying, oh, just wait till there's this age, this is the best age, or this, da-da-da-da.
53:09
SPEAKER_01: It's like, but as a parent, it's like every single stage of my kids, even to now where they're they're making me espresso and and we're hanging out and they're teaching me things, it's like every stage has beauty to it.
53:23
SPEAKER_01: So it's like, I don't I just don't want to miss, I don't want to miss the beauty.
53:28
SPEAKER_01: Uh I don't want to miss the beautiful moments, and I don't miss that one person because my eyes were focused on the empty chair, you know?
53:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I have this personal philosophy that when I look at trees and then I enjoy the beauty of a tree while I'm driving, then I'm present.
53:47
SPEAKER_02: I think that's important.
53:49
SPEAKER_02: It's kind of a random weird thing.
53:52
SPEAKER_02: But my brain's always and I'm like, today I'm just gonna look at the like I didn't notice the trees started turning orange because I've been so head down, and then it's like stillness, you know?
54:08
SPEAKER_02: Stillness is key is a book that that I really like, and it talks about the importance of that, and I think that you've done uh talked a bit about like quieting.
54:18
SPEAKER_01: See, listen.
54:19
SPEAKER_01: For me it was uh it was a book by Henry Nowen called The Way of the Heart, and it was all about the importance of silence and solitude.
54:27
SPEAKER_01: Two things that I hate.
54:29
SPEAKER_01: And like you know, when I had my vocal cord surgery, I was forced into silence, which I've learned, you know, sadly up to that point, that's what it would have taken for me to just be still.
54:44
SPEAKER_01: And uh that book kind of wrecked me and it taught me like why I why I don't like silence, it's like because then I'm I'm stuck with me.
54:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm having to face the reality of who I am or who I've become or where I'm unhealthy.
55:00
SPEAKER_01: But if you stay long enough, you come face to face with who still loves you through all of that, and that's why it's transformational, you know what I mean?
55:09
SPEAKER_01: Totally, man.
55:10
SPEAKER_02: Can can you hand me that top paper up there?
55:13
SPEAKER_02: I wrote this thing on the plane yesterday randomly, and then this morning.
55:20
SPEAKER_02: I don't know why.
55:22
SPEAKER_02: I don't even know if I'll put this in the interview, but um this is my existential crisis.
55:32
SPEAKER_02: Let's go.
55:32
SPEAKER_02: Um or you know, I heard a quote that a busy a busy calendar is a hedge against existential dread.
55:40
SPEAKER_02: And when you're quiet, like people hate being still and quiet with themselves, especially in a dopamine nation where we're always hunting.
55:50
unknown: Yeah.
55:52
SPEAKER_02: But I wrote this, I guess, just kind of like because I just celebrated my birthday and I'm coming up on 40.
55:59
SPEAKER_02: So then like I ask myself all these big questions.
56:03
SPEAKER_02: So I don't have a title for it, but this is what it is.
56:09
SPEAKER_02: And forgive me if it's a little long, but it might connect with you or someone.
56:15
SPEAKER_02: The dream changes over time.
56:16
SPEAKER_02: It usually starts innocent a messy bedroom, dirty shoes, sitting cross-legged on the floor with a fender squire trying to learn your favorite song.
56:25
SPEAKER_02: For me, there was no YouTube, just kids in the neighborhood who played guitar, a gigantic five-dest CD player and songs recorded off the radio onto cassette with a karaoke machine.
56:37
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna be famous someday.
56:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I had that too.
56:42
SPEAKER_02: Maybe your version was music, maybe acting, maybe business, maybe sports.
56:47
SPEAKER_02: Maybe you just wanted to build something so undeniable that nobody could ignore you.
56:52
SPEAKER_02: But somewhere along the way, that dream grows up.
56:54
SPEAKER_02: It loses its innocence, develops daddy issues, becomes a hooker, and somehow you become the pimp.
57:02
SPEAKER_02: What was passion becomes pressure.
57:04
SPEAKER_02: What was pleasure becomes production.
57:07
SPEAKER_02: Then comes the grind.
57:10
SPEAKER_02: And had you known how powerful the dream could become, how capable it was of swallowing your time, your peace, your health, your relationships, maybe you would have thought harder about the price.
57:22
SPEAKER_02: But I don't want to kill the dream.
57:24
SPEAKER_02: I want to get off the streets.
57:26
SPEAKER_02: I want to get it off the streets and take it to church, redeem it somehow.
57:29
SPEAKER_02: And lately I've been thinking about the meaning of life.
57:32
SPEAKER_02: Maybe because I'm 38, maybe because of stress, maybe because life has hit hard for a while.
57:39
SPEAKER_02: Two parents dead, a son born debt, selling my truck to catch up on the mortgage, watching my dog die in front of me and my son, putting down my cat.
57:48
SPEAKER_02: And somewhere inside of all that, still trying to build something, still trying to create, still believing there's something ahead worth reaching for.
57:55
SPEAKER_02: But then I read Ecclesiastes, and that book disrupts ambition because we all die.
58:02
SPEAKER_02: The rich man dies, the poor man dies, the famous man dies, the person nobody ever heard of dies.
58:09
SPEAKER_02: Awards go into boxes, numbers disappear, business and businesses eventually belong to somebody else.
58:17
SPEAKER_02: Songs stop getting played, movies get forgotten, companies get sold, a few generations pass, and most of us become a name somebody vaguely remembers, and eventually, if we are lucky enough to have people around us at the end, we probably won't be lying in a hospital bed asking someone to bring us our awards.
58:34
SPEAKER_02: We will want our wife, our children, our friends, the people we love, and the people who love us.
58:38
SPEAKER_02: Then we die.
58:41
SPEAKER_02: So what was all of this for?
58:44
SPEAKER_02: I want financial freedom, I want to create, I want to build something, I want my last name to mean something to my grandchildren.
58:50
SPEAKER_02: But how much ambition is calling, and how much is ego?
58:55
SPEAKER_02: How much sacrifice is courage, and how much is foolishness?
58:59
SPEAKER_02: When does perseverance become an inability to let go?
59:03
SPEAKER_02: And when does a dream become an idol?
59:06
SPEAKER_02: You can spend decades trying to get there, then maybe you do.
59:10
SPEAKER_02: You get the record deal, then what?
59:12
SPEAKER_02: You get the role, then what?
59:13
SPEAKER_02: You build the company, then what?
59:15
SPEAKER_02: You sell out the arena, then what?
59:17
SPEAKER_02: You make the money, then what?
59:19
SPEAKER_02: Everyone finally knows your name, then what?
59:22
SPEAKER_02: Ecclesiastes says to enjoy your wife, enjoy your food, enjoy your work, receive your life while you have it, and yet there is still something inside some of us that wants to build.
59:33
SPEAKER_02: Creators have to create.
59:35
SPEAKER_02: At least I think they do.
59:37
SPEAKER_02: So I keep coming back to the same question.
59:40
SPEAKER_02: How do you reconcile ambition, calling, building, creating, providing legacy, family, faith, and actually enjoying the unbelievably short life you have been given?
59:49
SPEAKER_02: Because I don't want to spend my whole life building something only to reach the end and realize I misunderstood the assignment.
59:56
SPEAKER_02: And I don't want to walk away from something God put inside me simply because it became hard.
1:00:02
SPEAKER_02: So what is the dream actually for?
1:00:05
SPEAKER_02: And what is the point of any of this?
1:00:11
unknown: Wow.
1:00:12
SPEAKER_02: That's what I'm struggling with.
1:00:15
SPEAKER_02: What's the point?
1:00:17
SPEAKER_02: So I guess I'll ask you.
1:00:21
SPEAKER_01: Because I asked, like, the well, can I stop you just for a second?
1:00:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that is so profound and so profoundly honest that I hope you don't cut that out of this episode.
1:00:34
SPEAKER_01: You cut out a lot of the talking I did, but include that because I'll keep it Derek or whoever it was that stopped you in the airport, and whoever's listening to this, I guarantee you, is asking at least some, if not all, of those questions.
1:00:53
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's that's powerful.
1:00:56
SPEAKER_01: So thanks for sharing that with me.
1:00:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, man.
1:00:59
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, you can ask your question.
1:01:00
SPEAKER_02: No, no, I just wrote it randomly, and I was like, you've gone and were wired similarly, and you've had so much success, you know, even like I said to 40 number ones and you thought, but a number twos.
1:01:14
SPEAKER_02: But have you and do you and like, you know, approaching another decade of your life, do you think, like, what is this all about?
1:01:25
SPEAKER_02: What is this for?
1:01:27
SPEAKER_02: Why am I doing this?
1:01:29
SPEAKER_02: And if so, do you have an answer?
1:01:34
SPEAKER_01: It's so hard for me not to give an answer that is um spiritual in its foundation.
1:01:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, because at the end of the day, you know, and who knew Tom Douglas would be a guest on today's show, but that word eternality, I I think like for me, I wonder if God's looking at both of us, and he knew every word you'd write down and every question you'd write, and he would say, The dreams I put in your heart, the giftings I've given you, the calling that you have, the ambition that you have.
1:02:18
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm what I care about is your heart.
1:02:24
SPEAKER_01: What I want is you.
1:02:26
SPEAKER_01: What I want is for you to look to me to guide you every step of the way.
1:02:32
SPEAKER_01: And the outcome of those efforts is not the story he's looking to tell.
1:02:38
SPEAKER_01: He's more concerned about the the greater story that is a father who loves his child, who created him or her uniquely one of a kind, and at every turn is uh seeking to get your attention and have you be absolutely wrecked in the best way by the truth that you're loved if the dream comes true, and you're loved if uh the song doesn't get cut, you're loved if the podcast gets millions of uh listens, or you're loved if Derek in the airport's the only one who reaches you.
1:03:20
SPEAKER_01: Like, if you and I can get closer to that awareness of unconditional love and approval, then we can begin to pursue all the things that you just listed out from a place of like I want to pursue it from a place of freedom and releasing the outcome because I know I'm uniquely gifted by God to do these things and let the outcome take care of itself.
1:03:54
SPEAKER_01: And like you said, I mean I you know what I love what Rodney Clausen wrote in um the George Strait song is like where he's just walked down the street to a coffee shop after his baby's born in the song and saw flower popping up through the concrete, and I saw God today, like all the different ways that God's trying to get our attention to see the beauty, but like to embrace the love that he has for us, regardless of the outcome we think we see.
1:04:30
SPEAKER_01: And then to also understand that that's the irony, is like we think we're on the journey, but there's a greater story being told.
1:04:40
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
1:04:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:04:41
SPEAKER_01: It's like you said about the bad, you say, Oh, that happened.
1:04:44
SPEAKER_01: Good.
1:04:46
SPEAKER_01: And what if what if God is saying the same thing?
1:04:49
SPEAKER_01: You know?
1:04:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah Oh, that didn't work out the way you thought it would?
1:04:52
SPEAKER_01: Good.
1:04:53
SPEAKER_01: Because I had something bigger in in mind, I had something better in store for you.
1:04:58
SPEAKER_01: And he's using it all to draw us closer to him.
1:05:02
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
1:05:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:05:04
SPEAKER_01: Every failure has brought me to my knees.
1:05:07
SPEAKER_01: On my knees is not a bad place to start, because that's that's where that's dependence.
1:05:13
SPEAKER_01: It's not up to me, it's not up to you.
1:05:15
SPEAKER_01: We think it is, we act like it is, but it's not.
1:05:19
SPEAKER_01: So I don't have the answer, is the short answer to that, but I do know.
1:05:30
SPEAKER_01: I know that I have a a wife who's my best friend.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_01: I have two daughters who I hope will be able to say that dad wasn't two people.
1:05:43
SPEAKER_01: You know, he was he wasn't perfect, but he was he loved us and he let us know that we were a priority.
1:05:52
SPEAKER_01: He focused on the most important things, you know.
1:05:56
SPEAKER_01: I think we wrestle with that through our whole lives.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_01: And we come home and we realize what really matters.
1:06:04
SPEAKER_01: But the only way I'm able to reconcile all the ambition inside of me is going, Lord, you made me.
1:06:12
SPEAKER_01: I think you have a plan for my life.
1:06:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to run my race well.
1:06:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to run it you know, I heard Tim Tebow say, I want to reach heaven totally exhausted.
1:06:23
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, it sounded like a football player kind of thing to say, but I was like, I kind of like that too.
1:06:29
SPEAKER_01: So maybe it's not about us not chasing, it's just what what place are we chasing from?
1:06:36
SPEAKER_01: Pressure, stress, fear of failure, or freedom?
1:06:41
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, God, for making me the way you've made me, and I gotta figure this out, but I don't want to figure it out without you.
1:06:48
SPEAKER_01: You know?
1:06:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:06:50
SPEAKER_02: So I'm sorry for the spiritual answer, but that's I wanted the spiritual answer, because that's what it comes down to, man.
1:06:56
SPEAKER_02: That's what I think why I got rebaptized last year, and I feel like a new Christian is because when I read the Bible, it's real now.
1:07:05
SPEAKER_02: Like I feel like God brought Haley and I through a lot of deserts, and you always see the desert before the promised land.
1:07:13
SPEAKER_02: So whatever is in the future and is in store, I don't know.
1:07:17
SPEAKER_02: But I just find myself asking the question, like, what is it all for?
1:07:21
SPEAKER_02: And um it's an interesting question that I that I struggle with, and I think other people struggle with it too.
1:07:31
SPEAKER_01: Well, what's the scripture about he who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it?
1:07:40
SPEAKER_01: Like when is when is it complete?
1:07:45
SPEAKER_02: It might be an eternity.
1:07:46
SPEAKER_02: Who knows?
1:07:47
SPEAKER_02: It will be I have this theory, dude.
1:07:49
SPEAKER_02: Like, whatever's going on on earth is really just like a prep for eternity.
1:07:55
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think we're works in progress until and again it comes back to like he's not putting the pressure on us that we put on us, like his grace is sufficient, is what it says.
1:08:11
SPEAKER_01: Like, in our weakness, his strength is made perfect.
1:08:14
SPEAKER_01: So like he's not caught off guard by the areas that we're weak in, or the things that we allow ourselves to stress over, or the ambitions that go awry.
1:08:25
SPEAKER_01: None of it catches him off guard, and none of it makes him change his mind about how he feels about us, which is so hard because in our physical sight, all we see is people changing their mind about how they feel about us based on our success or lack thereof.
1:08:42
SPEAKER_01: So it's hard to see through spiritual eyes of that there's one, at least one.
1:08:49
SPEAKER_01: And obviously, you know, I know you feel like your wife and your kiddo, and I feel that way about my wife and kids that like, you know, dad came home from the devil wards and didn't hear his name called, but I know I know how they feel about me, you know what I mean?
1:09:05
SPEAKER_01: But even more so, how much does our Heavenly Father feel about us?
1:09:10
SPEAKER_01: Like, if we can tap into that, if I can continue to go to that well, then no desert will leave us dry.
1:09:19
SPEAKER_01: Like no doubt, no, no desert can bring us, you know, to the point of thirst.
1:09:26
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know what I mean?
1:09:28
SPEAKER_01: And throughout scripture, one of the things I love is I love the hope in scripture by all the stories of the flawed people.
1:09:36
SPEAKER_01: Like, I just think that like the fact that the Israelites didn't hit the promised land right away, like 40 years is a long time to be walking in circles and relearning lessons.
1:09:49
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm like, okay, like that's I I find encouragement in that, and I need to not beat myself up when I find myself taking another lap around the same desert, if you will.
1:10:03
SPEAKER_01: Same for you.
1:10:04
SPEAKER_01: Well said.
1:10:06
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for your time today, man.
1:10:10
SPEAKER_01: This this impacted me in a big way.
1:10:14
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for sharing what you shared with me.
1:10:15
SPEAKER_02: Dude, I appreciate it, man.
1:10:18
SPEAKER_02: And then um Matthew West on all platforms.
1:10:23
SPEAKER_02: Which feels so funny to talk about now as we've mile wide, but but no, man, it's that those I think it's cool when you have a conversation like this, because you were so open and vulnerable.
1:10:37
SPEAKER_02: So like if people want to go like check, check out what you're doing and your music and everything, that way that way they have a place to uh to go absolutely connect.
1:10:47
SPEAKER_02: So thanks for letting me share some of my story today.
1:10:50
SPEAKER_02: This has been awesome.
1:10:51
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, brother.
1:10:52
SPEAKER_02: Keep up the good work, man.
1:10:53
SPEAKER_02: You too.
1:10:54
SPEAKER_02: Please know that over half of you are not subscribed, and it's your free gift to the show.
1:11:00
SPEAKER_02: If you can hit that subscribe button, like button, leave a comment.
1:11:04
SPEAKER_02: And um today made me think about a lot of things.
1:11:08
SPEAKER_02: I loved the analogy of like knowing what that circle is to celebrate, and y'all probably might deal with that too.
1:11:18
SPEAKER_02: And so try to implement that.
1:11:20
SPEAKER_02: I know that that's gonna be my my homework, man.
1:11:23
SPEAKER_02: Talking with with my wife about like, hey, what does that look like?
1:11:27
SPEAKER_02: You and me both.
1:11:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, dude.
1:11:29
SPEAKER_02: Alright, I'll see you guys next week.
1:11:30
SPEAKER_02: Peace.
1:11:31
SPEAKER_02: The word country politicin comes from a real era in country music.
1:11:35
SPEAKER_02: When Nashville took country music and made it elegant, strings, background vocals, orchestra.
1:11:41
SPEAKER_02: It was country music with polish.
1:11:43
SPEAKER_02: Think Patsy Klein, Glenn Campbell, Tammy Wynette, George Jones, Charlie Pride, songs that still had the ache and honesty of country, but dressed up with style.
1:11:53
SPEAKER_02: And that is exactly what this hotel feels like.
1:11:56
SPEAKER_02: The kind of place where every detail's been thought through.
1:11:59
SPEAKER_02: The scent when you walk in, the music, the clothes they carry, the textures, the rooms, the coffee cups, the way everything feels curated without feeling fake.
1:12:07
SPEAKER_02: So you feel the history immediately, but unlike staying right in the middle of Broadway, it feels tucked away, it feels calm, it feels like you found something.
1:12:15
SPEAKER_02: And that's honestly why I love it.
1:12:17
SPEAKER_02: It's where I go when I want to get away.
1:12:19
SPEAKER_02: Things slow down, have a restful time without technology.
1:12:22
SPEAKER_02: And when you're ready, the rhyme and Broadway for about a four minute walk.
1:12:26
SPEAKER_02: The Contrapolitan Hotel.
1:12:28
SPEAKER_02: Stay in the story.