Latest / Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps / JUST JOSH: Insights From A Tour

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JUST JOSH: Insights From A Tour · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

• 0:00
  G'day humans, welcome to the safe space for dangerous ideas.
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  It's so good to be back with you, back on Terra firma, after having flizz around the world,
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  bouncing about like some deranged psychedelic woodpecker hither and thither, Los Angeles,
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  San Francisco, Austin, New York, Paris, London, Singapore, Perth, Brisbane, Adelaide, Melbourne,
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  Sydney.
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  And here we are.
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  What I'd share with you, some of the experiences from that trip, some of my thoughts about
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  the Douglas Murray tour, some of where I've ended up about Israel, Palestine, Gaza, and the
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  rest of the Shemalsal that is Planet Earth circa 2024.
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  If you're new to the show or new to the subscription, welcome.
• 0:46
  We've had a big uptick in listeners, it's interesting because when I announced my departure
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  from the public broadcaster in October, the following month, November, we doubled our
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  substacks subscribers as everyone went, ooh, what's Josh going to do?
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  Maybe we'll check out this independent Malaki, and then in December, our substacks following
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  doubled again, which I was so grateful for, so grateful that people jumped in quickly and
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  reassured me essentially that there was viability financially and a replacement essentially
• 1:20
  for my income at the public broadcaster.
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  And then just now, in the past like three weeks or so, we've had another 20% increase,
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  which in absolute terms is probably maybe even larger than the previous increases because,
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  well, you understand percentages, surely.
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  Do I need to go into basic maths, yeah, hopefully not.
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  So thank you, it's an enormous voter conference, it makes me feel like we can take measures
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  to expand this, expand the YouTube channel, take some more audacious risks.
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  And if you've been on the fence about subscribing, please do so, it's just a way of signaling
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  to us that we're on the right track.
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  Douglas Murray, what a fascinating person, what a peculiar little man, and I say that
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  with the greatest affection, Douglas.
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  It's really one thing that struck me hanging out with him is he's, as well as being
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  scrupulously polite and extremely intelligent, he's very funny, he's very funny, he's
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  a lovely person to have dinner with, like he's a raconteur, he's got all this, it's almost
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  like, yeah, even though he's not old, he feels like he's been around, he feels like he should
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  be 110 years old, you feel like you're talking to Peter O'Toole or something, you know,
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  he's got all these stories that he shouldn't really have about having dinner with so and
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  so, and you know, oh, when I was at, it's always like, when I was at Khan in 1924, you're
• 2:49
  like, excuse me, wait, what, it up who?
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  But he's a great regala of tales, and so it's very difficult actually to sustain one's
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  opposition to his political points of view, not just because he's so articulate and they're
• 3:03
  so clearly thought out, but because you sort of don't want to be a dick to him, you know,
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  you don't want to throw him under the bus, nonetheless, I tried, at least in a professional
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  context, I tried to push back, especially on the Israel stuff, because while we were touring,
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  literally while we were on the road, the, there were a couple of things that happened that
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  I think, call into question, his lockstep opinion with, well, his lockstep position, I suppose,
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  with the Israeli government.
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  The first was that the far right finance minister, Smotrash in Israel, is that the
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  Blacksland, I think so, announced two and a half thousand acres of West Bank land to
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  be earmarked for Jewish settlements, territory for settlements.
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  He said, and I quote, this is quoting from Smotrash, even as there are those at home and abroad
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  who seek to cull us down to our right to both Israel and to Judea and Samaria, which
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  is what we sort of biblical Jews call the West Bank, we're advancing settlement.
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  So in other words, the Israeli government is literally saying from the river to the sea,
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  they're saying that Israel rightly possesses all of the land, including what is internationally
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  recognized as being Palestinian land and the basis for a future Palestinian state.
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  I mean, talk about not reading the room, talk about making zero attempt to try to win
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  over or placate people around the world who are conflicted about what Israel is doing.
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  Talk about steamrolling ahead, Jesus.
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  And the second thing that happened while Douglas Murray and I were on the road arguing
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  about Israel and Gaza is that the highest ranking American Jewish politician in history,
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  all-time ally of Netanyahu, the Senate Majority Leader, Senator Chuck Schumer, gave a bombshell
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  speech saying that Israel should hold elections and that Bebe Netanyahu has, well, his time
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  is up essentially.
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  This is a person who has so much credibility with Israel, whose bona fide is a so unquestionable
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  that he actually split with his own democratic president Barack Obama over the Iran deal
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  and sided with Netanyahu and Israel in opposing the nuclear deal with Iran when Obama came
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  up with that.
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  There is no way that anyone can question Chuck Schumer as an ally of Israel and he gave
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  this speech saying, and again, I quote,
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  Netanyahu has shown zero interest in doing the courageous and visionary work required
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  to pave the way for peace even before this current conflict.
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  He won't engage responsibly in discussions for a day after plan for Gaza.
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  So my big difference with Douglas Murray and I hope it would have come out if you attended
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  all seven of our sessions together, of our events in Australia, but since nobody presumably
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  did fly around the country with us, this is what I'm doing here is trying to give you
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  a little breakdown of my reflections having attended all seven.
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  Although I only partially attended one or two because I had a very bad head cold, so my
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  body was dead, but my brain perhaps wasn't.
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  My point would be even set aside the interests of the garrisons.
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  Set aside the interests of Palestinians, set aside the question of whether or not Israel
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  is behaving abominably or is guilty of war crimes, right?
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  You can debate that.
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  I suppose, you know, the Douglas Murray's of the world will always be able to say, it's
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  a war, Hamas started the war, bad things happen in wartime, I'm sorry.
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  What about the long term interests of Israel?
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  What about the idea that for Israel to thrive over the next 75 years, 100 years?
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  It's going to be necessary for it to address the long term interests of Palestinians.
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  What about the question of whether or not it's a good idea to create an arc of allies
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  stretching from, and this is basically the Biden strategy, which I think is a good one,
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  an arc of allies stretching from India up through the Arab Gulf states, through the North
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  African states and into the European Union and NATO, all of which are allied against Iran
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  and Russia and to some extent China.
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  That is going to be the basis for a future world order, perhaps in an environment in which
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  America is not dependable as the sole superpower to enforce a pecs Americana.
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  And that to do that to maintain that alliance, you need to have a lot of very different
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  governments all on the same page.
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  And the Arab states and countries like India and even some countries in Europe are not
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  going to buy in if one of those member states is a shitty little pariah that insists on
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  doing everything it can to antagonize and shit upon the people whom it's occupying.
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  Israel has to be part of the community of nations.
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  Now I understand that to some extent there's a bit of hypocrisy here because as Douglas
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  Murray said on one of our evenings, it's a bit rich to say, oh, we don't want Israel
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  to be a pariah state and then to do everything you can to try to make Israel a pariah state
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  and then say, gee, well, it's a big shame that you became a pariah state after we made
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  you do so.
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  Nonetheless, it would be nice to see the current Israeli politicians have incentives to
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  think about Israel's reputation in 50, 80, 100 years rather than their own expedient
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  political interests in order to avoid court cases and cling to power as long as they can.
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  As I said to Douglas a number of times, if October 7th had happened in a climate in
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  which Israel had made clear its commitment to Palestinian statehood, to a demilitarized
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  Palestinian state, eventually, would radical anti-zionists have less international support
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  than they do?
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  And Douglas's answer, a couple of occasions, staggered me, said, no, I don't think that
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  radical anti-zionists would have any more or less international sympathy, regardless
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  of what Israel does.
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  Now, in one respect, that's a very pro-Israel position, right?
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  Because it's basically saying Israel is blainless, Israel has no culpability for the fact
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  that so many people hate it.
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  On the other hand, it's deeply depressing because it sort of implies that there's nothing
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  that Israel can do that will resolve the situation.
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  It makes Israel a pawn, it makes Israel powerless, it basically says, Israel can brutalize,
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  but Israel cannot win over.
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  Israel can destroy hearts and minds, but Israel cannot elevate hearts and minds.
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  Israel cannot be anyone's friend, there's nothing that Israel can do.
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  You just have to choose a, you're either with us or against us, you're either on the
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  side of Israeli civilization or the barbarism of the Arab street.
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  And that's the only choice.
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  I mean, I find that untenable.
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  It's also just psychologically unrealistic.
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  It's patently true that there are a lot of people in the world who are like Chuck Schumer
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  and Josh Zepz, who are willable by a moderate Israeli government that made overtures to Palestinian
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  self-determination and who are completely alienated by a corrupt little half like Benjamin
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  Ness and Yahoo.
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  Israel's long-term interests depend on having allies and having allies depends on looking
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  like, at least looking like, you're doing something about a two-state solution.
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  You know, the existence of a process in itself is an asset.
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  Douglas, we keep saying to me when I said this, but it's possible.
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  To hear the rest of this conversation, go to uncomfortableconversations.substac.com-slash-listen
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  and you will get your own personal premium podcast feed with at least three extra episodes
• 11:20
  of the podcast every month and heaps of extra stuff, including the remainder right now
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  of the fabulous conversation you've just been hearing.
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  If it was worth listening to this much of, don't rob yourself of the rest.
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  Well, let your phone like now.
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  And so, to uncomfortable conversations, go to uncomfortable.