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Wholehearted Advent: Your Invitation to Celebration with Pastor Jason Jackson · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Plans, parties, and presents.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Man, these days always go by in a blur.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: But what is Avent really all about?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Avent is your invitation to take a step back.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: For eight years, I've gathered and invited you here to slow down and to tune into something a little bit deeper.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: This season is about waiting and reconnecting.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: For you, the multi-passionate woman who is seeking purpose.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Avent offers a chance for you to refocus on God, on yourself, and the people who matter most to you.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: So this year, I'd love for you to pause with me.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: I am creating space for intentionality and to make more room for Christ to meet you and me right where we find ourselves.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, welcome to the eighth annual Advent Podcast series, where we will learn a little, laugh a lot, and focus on celebrating with our whole selves.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, here we are.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: The official start of the Advent season is just around the corner.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: I am so excited to continue this Advent series with this conversation with friend and Pastor Jason Jackson from New Life Church downtown.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Each year we've touched on the topic of Advent, what it is in light of the liturgical calendar, what it looks like to observe it, different tips and rhythms and inspiration.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so honored that Pastor Jason would give some time to help us get reoriented and focused on Advent this year.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: I love this conversation, of course.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we've really covered the gamma of topics.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: It was so fun.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about the Enneagram, we talked about Six Working Genius, the impact of these insights in his work and ministry role, even in his marriage.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about the church calendar.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about grief and loss, and as well as some things that he does as a leader and in his personal life as a follower of Jesus this time of year to make it especially meaningful, but also a little less chaotic and harried.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now, here's the deal, friend.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: I wish I could take all of the hustle and stress that this time of year often presses upon you.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I would love to invite you to at least listen along and take note of the things that you might want to try out next year.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's not going to happen this year, but you could do yourself a favor and assess this year what is creating the stress the most and maybe jot it down so you'll remember next year what you want to do differently.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: So give yourself some extra grace this year and tune in on the regular to this wholehearted advent series.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get right to this conversation with Pastor Jason Jackson.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Hey Jason, are you surviving the snow day?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: We just got dumped on, which is unusual for this time of year.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I don't know, eight to ten inches maybe total.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: I went out last night um knowing there was more snow coming and it was icier here than normal.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh and I you know I was just watching other cars in the road going, oh, like I'm not in Iowa anymore.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: No, people don't know how to do this.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: People don't know how to do this, right?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so I got home as quickly as I possibly could.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: I do not want to be in the midst, I don't want to be outside.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's way more mild, and I'm way more cautious.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of strange.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's my introversion saying that I don't want to go outside.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to go see people.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's become an excuse.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, there you go.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Has your introversion gotten worse over the years, or especially being a pastor?
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it has definitely gotten worse over the years.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think the older I get, and then even in the new role, I think it's been heightened.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, for sure.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: It just, you know, each meeting sort of there's more kind of that I'm thinking about and holding and processing on any given week.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's requiring more like mental and emotional energy.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so like I'm finding the need to pull away more.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, the kids are older too, so they're requiring it's no longer the physical needs of others, it's the relational, conversational, emotional, spiritual needs of teenagers and pre-teenagers.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I've got to have a little bit left in the tank to be able to engage in conversations there.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I haven't figured out the right dials yet.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: And every time I think I figure them out, then I feel like, oh, I think I need more time.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and you compound it with reality as I get older.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe more, I fall more in the amber.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: But getting older and more mature in Christ, I realize how much I need to have that time away.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not to do nothing, it's not to just hold away.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: It is to literally get soul fueled again to do what we're doing.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and that alone time is very important.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I think that would be an interesting, and I've never considered like, oh, that has to be really hard because not only do you just need it because you're an introvert and wired that way, but you know from a mature spiritual standpoint, you gotta have it.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: And the demands are not lessening at all.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: They're not.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't seem to be the case.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: And the pace isn't changing either.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, it's take it's it takes more intentionality to resist the pace and the expectations of our world.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: And some of that is the pace of ministry, and then sometimes the pace of just family, and it's just the pace of everything around us.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's all going faster.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then we feel the need to constantly go faster and then find, oh, I'm tired more quickly.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, worn out, strained.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it takes longer sometimes to at least for me, like even with my time with Jesus, it takes longer to sort of declutter.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um to get to a place where my mind is quiet.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: Even that is just taking so much longer now.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: Where I'm sitting there with a piece of paper, like just writing things down.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll think of some like, oh, I can't forget that.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: I can't forget to call that person.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: I can't forget to do this, I can't forget to do that.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm terrified I'm gonna forget.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm distracted the whole time.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm it it takes so much longer to go quiet.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is such a good point because uh a lot of times in the community, I'm talking about the contemplative practices.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, what's really cool is that you're kind of wrapping up what ended up being a sort of a three-part series, I think of readying our hearts for the holiday, which is just really beautiful in that that conversation of contemplative practice, but stillness, silence, solitude specifically has come up.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you can split it apart within the nine Enneagram types.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Each of us, there's a unique upstream practice to these, and that a specific contemplative practice is an upstream practice.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, silence is, but we're so inundated with just constant noise and some of the good, but it's so noisy.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then we talk about the sensory overload of our day and even the push to multitask so much, it requires a lot more time, I think, to get to a centering place where we can even just be with God because there's so much that we've been inundated with throughout.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, and the noise is multi-sensory.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: So there's all of the verbal sort of noise of whether that's you know, podcaster conversations or anywhere we go, there's conversations happening around us or coming toward us, and then the visual noise and the digital noise, and you know, the amount of just every notification and ping and app that saying, like, oh, there's a new thing here, a new notification, new notification, new notification.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like I feel fully notified.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: I will not forget, or I will just keep ignoring you.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: Either way, I don't know what I don't know what more things I could be notified of during the day.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, remind me.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think you are an Enneagram one.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is that how you lead?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: And how about Sarah?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: What's six?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: Six.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh, one in a six.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's fun.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: What's that like?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Fun would not be the word that we use to describe it.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's interesting.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: We don't we don't meet very many one six couples.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: No, you wouldn't.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-uh.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I and we both recognize, I think, when we were dating, we both thought we were sevens.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that makes sense.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: She's got she's got a strong seven-wing, and you know, every once in a while I can find seven space.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think, especially as I was, you know, trying to convince her that I was worth dating.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then I would go home in my introversion and just crash.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: But the one energy was like, I'm gonna do the dating thing, you know, right.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna, you know, plan all these big things.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: And she's like, this guy's so fun.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then later realized he actually really has to struggle to get there.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: Where it really works, I think for us, is both of us have a really high sense of duty and responsibility.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: So that can be really helpful in navigating, you know, the responsibilities of life and caring for kids and ministry and those things that there's a high level of responsibility.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: We can both get to that seventh space, which can be really fun, especially when we get away and we're on vacation.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Sarah will joke sometimes that she's like, I like vacation Jason better than just every day.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it works on those spaces.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think where it gets really difficult for us at times is well, and I think it also works on the like the loyalty, fidelity aspect of 100%, you know, she she has that sort of natural gift of the six in that, and then as a one, it's like that's the right thing to do.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's a lot of like follow-through and commitment and those things.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Where it becomes more difficult, I think, is when she's in more anxious spaces, sure, and especially in the like suspicion, like, hey, I need to check this.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: And when I'm in my shadow side of the one feeling like, oh, she's questioning whether or not I'm doing something right, so I can become really defensive really quickly, which then does not make her feel seen or heard or safe or something.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then we can end up in a really vicious cycle.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, pretty quick from there.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, activating each other in the worst ways.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: And we found that's been really difficult.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then we both have a present orientation.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: So the tyranny of the urgent can just really make it difficult for us to remember and reflect, not so much in our life with Jesus, but more just okay, let's look back on this last year together or as a family, those things like trying to do that together and then planning ahead can be really difficult because we have that present orientation.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: So we can be present, but sometimes forget some of the other pieces.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: And even in those moments of going, like, oh wait, we've been here before.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: What did we do in the past that that can seem inaccessible to us in those moments?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then future planning can feel really difficult at times.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Disdaunting.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: That has to be interesting as you both lead a fairly significant congregation where the mantra or norm would be to be thinking big and thinking future and down the road.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I I see it as a future thinker.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: I see it as a gift that you remain fully present where you are right now in a beautiful way, but that also has that pull or that push that would be natural in your role.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: That has to be challenging.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's been more challenging since stepping into the lead role the last couple of years.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that there's, you know, there's a greater expectation, a greater weight, a greater necessity in my role to be doing more of that.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: Even going back to our previous conversation around like even introversion, is to say, like, oh, I need more time to do that for me to move from like, okay, what do I need to do today?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's easy space for me to occupy.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: For me to think, okay, what do we want to be true in three years or five years or seven years?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Just takes more intentionality, takes more energy.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: I need a lot more help and tools to get into those spaces.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: And if it's just up to me in my sort of worst moments, I'll just gravitate toward, like, okay, I'm just gonna keep pushing that off.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'll just wait.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: I know and do what comes natural, but that's not a service to the church, that's not a service to my team.
• 13:39
  unknown: Yeah.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I I need to intentionally pull away a little bit more to do those things which are not naturally wired toward.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I have to connect with people who do have that natural wiring or tools or resources that have that to help me in that process.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because if I just try to move, you know, space, which I is necessary part of it, but don't also have the strength of future thinkers in the room, have a high W D on the working genius, so that helps.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: In that, in those spaces, like asking the right questions and sort of discerning with the ideation of my like greatest frustration.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Frustration is it?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I I want to skip from wonder straight to discernment.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: And okay, yeah, or the discernment sort of you know presses so hard against um any uh you know, brain through creativity, new ideas, like no, that will work, and here's the reasons before I've been really sat with it for very long.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it does, it takes it's taking quite a bit more, and I'm not creating enough space yet.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: For those things.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you know both of these tools.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: It makes my heart so happy.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't know them as well as you do, but they've been really helpful for us as in our marriage, they've been really helpful for us as a team.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: The working genius things have really just been a conversation amongst our team for the last uh sometime in the last year is when we were really introduced into it.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we're still learning and practicing, but that has become really helpful for me, just knowing, oh, why am I having such a hard time in these spaces?
• 15:21
  unknown: Yeah.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: These are my frustrations.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes we can think, oh, that person's frustrating me.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, nope, they're not frustrating me.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's this part of the process that's frustrating me.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: They happen to be really good at it.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: I happen to be really bad at it.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe it's just best if I leave the room for a little while.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: And as Patrick Lincioni often does, which he is the creator, the six working genius.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: And his, I think some of this stem from what kind of meetings to have when and how to articulate what this meeting is all about.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think is that understanding the working genius and go, okay, this is a wonder invention discernment meeting, and this is a galvanizing enablement tenacity meeting and really dividing in those two things or two processes.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: I coach coaches and I was helping them with weekly emails and batching content on that.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: And what does that look like?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: And we use what's really awesome, an Enneagram one was the one asking the question and her to our discernment and enablement.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so we talked through that process and came up with specific tools to use to help with the wonder and the invention.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then also how to block that out so that way she doesn't exhaust herself in one big chunk of time to have to carry it through all six steps of the project and to know how to pair it and how to re-energize herself in between, because that is a critical element of understanding their function because our geniuses were high functioning in.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't take anything, it brings joy, but those frustrations, we have to understand we need to put some margin and space around those or bring in people, right?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you have people on your team who love to invent.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's just giving them the space to do it.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: I am one of those.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if it's just like there's an idea that's so many ideas every minute.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they're fantastic, they're fantastic at it.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure they're frustrated with me of going like he just he just discerns it too quickly.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: We don't even get a chance to, we don't even get to experience the joy of the joy of the idea for a moment.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right, exactly, exactly.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: The joy of the expression.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then your oneness also kicks in of like it has to be done well and right and with excellence.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's gonna take way more time and you're wanting to put this out tomorrow.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, hold your horses.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: I might know, I might know how these things go.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like you're reading our whole team's mail right now.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Just give me an hour and man, we could be diagrams, it would be whiteboarded, all the things.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: We're still trying to figure out even some of those things, like who needs to be in the room for the meetings and yeah, you know, and figuring out some of the, you know, some of it is obviously there's roles, and so that requires certain things, but then there's the geniuses and and you know, all those, those different pieces, and figuring out how to, like you said, batch those, like, okay, this is this meeting, we'll get to the other meeting later and not try to do all of it at once.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Those are definitely growing, those are growing edges for us still in this conversation for sure.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I think this is where the growth opportunity comes in for even efficiency and unity and the level of exhaustion a team carries.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because if we can get clear on that, we're not pulling in the wrong people at the wrong time, wasting their time.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: So therefore they're not efficient, or exhausting them and then making them frustrated and creating more friction as opposed to the unity that we're looking for.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so I don't know.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, these are my two favorite tools right now, Enneagram and Six Working Genius.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: I could talk about them all day long.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I do clearly, I do.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: You get to.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: I get to.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's your great guest, all of us.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it is my honor and joy.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I I have to remember that every once in a while when I have to do the E and T stuff of the business.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I'm so done with this.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, I don't mind the T.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: The E is my other is my other frustration.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, my the G and the E are my big thing.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm overcoming as I'm getting a team, the G weakness, because that's always been my pain point.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, you know, I could talk about this all day long, but instead, I better galvanize us into the reason.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's so many things I've wanted to ask you about.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is a loaded month, election has happened.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much emotion and swirl out there.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: The holidays are here, which I mean, that was already going to be loaded.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: We we knew it.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: We know that every four years, it's especially going to be hard because politics come to the table with us, the gatherings.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's either the elephant in the room or it's been a conversation that's been going all year.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then somehow we've tabled it, but the feelings are still there.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, when I come into this is the eighth year of doing the advent conversations, and because this has been a loaded season for my own heart and soul.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I've worked on my own process and praise the Lord, experience the level of breakthrough.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Can always use more.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I want to invite people to this tension, like to and go, it's okay that this feels hard, that it's not like how it felt when you were a kid, and everything's shiny and wonderful and anticipatory.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it's also okay if you think about when you were a kid, how it wasn't and you missed out on something that you feel like other people have.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: So we can go through all of that.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just excited to have you come in as a pastor and just pastor us.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a gifting you, you and Sarah have that.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: You hold that.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: I've watched you live that out oftentimes from afar online or through the podcast, because I do have a local church that I'm involved in.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I hear the care, I hear how you make room for those nuances and those tough, harder spaces.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of what I'd love to do in this.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so maybe you could share a little bit more too from a personal standpoint.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: How do you come into this season?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and what does it look like to ready your heart and mind?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's so full for a pastor.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's interesting.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because for I think for a lot of pastors, it is an extremely sort of full season.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think for us at New Life Downtown, because we've been thinking about Advent, observing Advent, um, one of our practices is we actually simplify more during this season.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we get into November, December, I mean, November still has, you know, kind of finished up all the budgets and calendaring and you know, all of those things, annual reviews.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: We're in the middle of all that right now.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: But by the time we get to December, We're sort of downshifting in a lot of ways, which has been helpful.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: So December never feels as busy for us.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: I should be really careful because I think it feels different for our worship team than it feels some of the rest of us, right?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're ramping up with special music and thinking about some of the like creative pieces that we include in worship.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that takes more from them and maybe a little bit less from some of the rest of us.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: So there's always that tension sometimes in a church staff where we we talk about this in the summer too, of so some of us have kind of downshifting.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: But our family ministry team is kids camp and student camp and desperation conference.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, they're that's right at full speed and the rest of us are like, oh, it's vacation.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me coming into December, there's a little bit of downshifting, but I know that's not true for everybody on our team, but we do try to sort of simplify that a little bit to make some room and then to hopefully create that for the congregation as well.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, I think there's, you know, on a personal level, there's there's so much help in that for me.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't grow up as a follower of Jesus.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: I came to Christ in high school and I wasn't really familiar with the liturgical calendar and the rhythms of the season.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I knew Christmas and Easter.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I've had some, you know, we practiced those things in our family.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I knew that Lent meant we had to have fish sticks every day in the cafeteria.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I knew that.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: I knew I knew that, but nothing more beyond it.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then for the last you know, 25 or so years, um, since getting introduced into the calendar and the rhythms and the seasons, uh, it has become more and more meaningful over the course of time as a way to really experience the presence of Jesus.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's been the biggest thing is that the calendar in each of its seasons were really, they were designed, they were created, they were meant to help us use that Eugene Peterson language, keep company with Jesus.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: And if it's outside of that space, then they're not really helpful anymore.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: They just become, you know, things that we're doing.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so Advent, I think, in particular, coming out of that long season of ordinary time and moving back into maybe some of the more high seasons of the church year has been particularly meaningful to say, like, oh, okay, here we go, coming into this season, we're beginning the calendar again, and we're thinking ahead into the next year, but we're doing so as a way of also marking time with the life of Jesus.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I think that's where Advent maybe has been uh so preparatory for me coming into this season, to the holidays, as a way to sort of the invitation for Advent for me has always been to slow down, to reflect, to sort of take stock, if you will, of the state of my soul.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that just runs so contrary to the rest of you know the hustle of the holidays.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: But it's been that invitation that has been so life-giving for me.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, it's so incredibly subversive because it is the opposite of everything that's happening around us.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I find it to be then very similar for me, like Sabbath keeping that Sabbath keeping has this, you know, subversive sense in our overfunctioning, non-stop work culture to stop and to rest and to delight and to celebrate and to do all those things.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's so subversive.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: And in the same way, Advent is as well.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like the holidays are going and they're booming.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: We got to do this, we gotta do this, we gotta prep this, we gotta go here, we gotta go do that, we gotta ready for this family, we gotta travel here, we gotta get these tickets, these gifts.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, ah, yeah, and then Advent says, Oh, wait, let's flow and let's reflect and let's pause and let's remember and let's fast, let's abstain.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it has been so life-giving because all of those things then become places, practices in which I can connect with Jesus in the midst of a holiday season that you know supposed to be all prepping for the celebration of Him, and yet then we are so busy we don't have time to rest in God's presence.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, Advent has been that for me personally, and then as a congregation, that's how we've thought about it as well.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do we, as a community, in the midst of all that's happening, help one another to enter into the season of Advent and not just the holiday season, maybe?
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, to think specifically like what's the invitation from the spirit in this moment to keep company with Jesus and with one another and with the church global and historic, and not just with the culture around us.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: I get really excited about it because of that, even though there's a sobriety about the season.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: There is.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you said so many things here that are great for one.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: You use the term fasting.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna talk about that in a minute, I'm sure.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because suddenly I'm like, well, okay, so maybe the 12 days of you know, Christmas cookie exchanges probably needs to go.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just kidding, I don't do that.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: But um, but okay, so you hinted that you didn't grow up in the faith necessarily observing anything remotely like the church calendar.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: So can you give us some of the history behind it?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: Can you help us nerd out a little bit?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think a lot of people don't know it.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a very valuable aspect that I personally, again, didn't grow up with it either, but it has become a way of doing that.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: It has been a beautiful change.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it really has been.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: Same for me.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's I just I find it to be so life-giving for me.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting that the the history of the calendar is one of those many things like in Christian history and tradition, yeah.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, you know, how people think about it and feel about it, or they'll just associate it with a specific, you know, traditions like, well, that's Catholic or that's Orthodox, and therefore not for all of us.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no, this is our family, these are our family traditions.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe different branches of the family have practiced it differently over the time.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but maybe there's some things that we can learn from the extended family and embrace in ways that could be true to even how we practice in our own homes and our own congregations.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, it's a fascinating conversation because, you know, on one hand, you have, you know, Jesus and his first disciples and the early Christians, they're all Jewish.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: And from what we can see in the New Testament, they're all still following the Jewish calendar set out in Leviticus 23 and other places.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: So they're observing Sabbath and they're uh, you know, the feasts of tabernacles and Passover.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, these are the things that Jesus and his disciples are engaging in.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: They're going to the synagogue, they're going to temple.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: So they're practicing those things.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that calendar itself is significant, it's meaningful, it's beautiful.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's all, you know, sort of shaped around the Exodus event, is really the center point for the Jewish calendar.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: And what we see happen, I think, especially as we come to the end of the first century, you get the destruction of the temple, you get the growing tension between Christians and Jews, especially with a lot of that was just the spread of Christianity amongst Gentiles.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: So Jews and Gentiles who are followers of Jesus were trying to figure out how do we do this together.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: They're under a significant amount of persecution.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's creating some tension between Jews and Christians.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so you have all of those things kind of happening in the background.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what happens is that over time, as they're navigating all of those issues, they begin to think about a new calendar that is primarily shaped around Jesus.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that seems to have sort of its incubation period in thinking about Sundays.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: That you had, you know, the first Christians are probably, especially those who are Jewish Christians, still maybe going to synagogue or temple on Saturday and then gathering together with the full set of believers, including Gentiles, on Sunday.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: And over the course of time, Sunday becomes the more prominent place because this is the gathering of the church, as opposed to the continuation of Christians inside of synagogues and those things.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: And at that point, it becomes like Sunday is a celebration of a resurrection.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: Every Sunday is a mini Easter.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: The Sunday is the day that Jesus was raised from the dead.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so you begin to see Sundays taking on more and more and more and more significance.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then because of that, you get Easter starting to take on more significance, certainly still in connection with Passover.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in the East and the West, think about those things a little bit differently as do we have different dates for the Eastern the Western Church versus the Eastern Church.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: But it's probably by the second century that the Easter feast is kind of taking on an identity.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then you have, you know, sort of subtle developments for the next little bit.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: But Christmas or the feast of the nativity doesn't become really formalized probably until the fourth century.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um before it becomes maybe codified in in some way, you know, it's this part of the conversation, but before it becomes a celebration or formal feast within the church, we get hints of that in the fourth century.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's probably the next century that Advent begins to emerge.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: So probably this century, this century is when we see some of those earliest references.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it seems to develop kind of similar the way that Lent did.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: That as Easter is taking on significance, then there became this impulse, we need to prepare our hearts for this.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: We need to prepare for Easter and this celebration and the season of feasting.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so you begin to have the establishment of a season of fasting, of preparation, of entering, you know, of sort of examining our hearts and our lives coming into the Easter season.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: We begin to see the same thing develop with Advent of As we come toward Christmas, how are we going to prepare?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, it just then took a while.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it begins kind of in these places where they're starting to think about preparation, then becomes more widely observed, then begins all the traditions begin to develop from there.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: But over time, it sort of emerged as clearly as a season of preparation for Christmas.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: So not another name for Christmas.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, which is the way sometimes you know, so many people in our culture talk about it.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: Especially I we can't look anywhere anymore without advent calendars.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right, with chocolates at Trader Shows.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: With chocolates and trader, yeah.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um so began as this reflective preparation for Christmas as the second longest fast in the calendar.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: No way.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I realized that up to compared to Lent.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: Compared to Lent.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it after, you know, it's it's shorter than Lent, but it's still an extended fast if you think about four Sundays, um, you know, plus whatever days between that Sunday and you know, it varies in in length as opposed to Lent is always the same length.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Advent varies a little bit.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: But then the other place of significance that it took on is which I don't think it's talked about very often in some of the conversations around Advent, is that it's our new year.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um the Christian calendar begins with the first Sunday of Advent.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're celebrating kind of our new year in late November, early December.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and this is actually one of the things I that I find to be most helpful about this season is it's so unlike every other new year celebration.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's not dancing, it's not fireworks, it's not late night parties, but it's it's somber, as we said earlier.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's um and it's not indulgent.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's not indulgent, it's not kind of over the top.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was I was thinking about as I was preparing for this, it reminds me a lot that of just the story of creation that we begin our year the way that the world began.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: We we begin in darkness, waiting for the dawn.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, we begin in sort of silent expectation, waiting for the word to come.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: We we begin in quiet and reflection and repentance, of even thinking about all the ways we've contributed to the chaos and disorder of the world and longing for Jesus to come, uh, longing for him to come to rescue and to restore all things.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: So it's taken on that significance, I mean, in those three ways, preparing for Christmas, but preparing in a very unique way, um, not by like celebrating early, but by really examining our hearts.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: And as a really unique kind of beginning to a new year.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that means that we necessarily have to say, you know, no to every aspect of Christmas creep that comes in, um, or that you know, we can't celebrate New Year on December 31st.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: We just have to remember at the end of the day, like we're following Jesus.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so how do we think first about what does it mean to follow Jesus and his life during this time?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, we have all the other things that we're dealing with as well.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but Advent sort of helps us just prioritize that relationship with Jesus and those things that we don't often do during the year.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: If we only are uh fasting at Lent, then okay, we don't have another fasting season in our calendar.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: We have the normal fast, you know, rhythms of the church, but really just becomes one fast if we ignore that part of Advent.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, there's so much good here.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for giving us some details.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm learning some new things here.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: That was super nerdy though.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm here for it for sure, for sure.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: And my friends are too.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: I I think what's really interesting, and you had alluded to this before of orienting how the rhythms of work have shifted in order to make the, you know, these holiday season, the avenue season, a little less full.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is the third year that I shifted my work rhythms that way too.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_03: You did.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: I did.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it was unintentionally aligning with this Christian maybe uh practice, if you will.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I just had fell in my spirit where um sometimes part of the end of the year is so loaded because it's all the pressure of finishing things, because you've set a certain expectation around time, but then the emotion of the holidays in connection with finishing those things, and then you compound it with reflection, which can in itself be loaded and disappointed.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so I started shifting my new year to November and just like practicing it that where what January used to be empty.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, that that subtle shift has done a lot in healing my heart or continuing the healing.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's just a it, it's a silly little thing and and people might want their new year to be July.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I think for me, it's created space that has aligned better with what I want my intention to be instead of feeling like the end of the year, like if you own a business, right?
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: You want to hit those quarter four goals.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you have all that pressure in the midst of all these other emotions and what should be or what could be, and it was setting me up for disaster.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I love hearing that like maybe there's a principle to it.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think I understood that avant was the beginning of the new year in that sense.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: And okay, makes so much sense.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, the little mind-blowing emoji.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, okay.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, well, yeah, I mean, as you were saying that it made me just even think of truthfully, we have kind of lots of new years, yes, right, that are naturally built into our lives.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: So sure, January is like the new year in terms of our Gregorian calendar, sort of things, but August really feels like the new year for a lot of families.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's a new school year, and then businesses have different fiscal years, right?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like you said, for some it's June or July is the beginning of the new year.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but advent marks the beginning of a new year in our life with Jesus, and so it doesn't negate that those other things exist for us, it just says, okay, if we're in my life with Jesus, when am I starting off in?
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: Where do I feel his invitation?
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: Where is his presence?
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: And how do I sort of create this space to reflectively think about the year that has passed and the year that's ahead and where Jesus is inviting me to be with him?
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: And if it's really hard to do that in some of those other new year, yes, it is the buttons.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because it's you're using like a reset, right?
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: But how can you reset in the middle of a you know a hurried pace and so much decadence or indulgence where that it's hardly reset?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: There's no space there.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's crowded, it's full.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: There's not, including our tongue.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, our stomachs are full.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, if you've taken vacation time at around Christmas, then you're coming back and it's like, oh, we've been out of work for a week, and you know, there's so much like we gotta get caught up on all the emails, we gotta do this, we gotta do that, we've got to plan for this next year and in church world, we gotta launch small groups, we gotta launch this, we gotta launch that.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, and so Advent has been such a gift to say, oh no, this is the start of the new year, and I'm beginning and thinking about what is Jesus setting before us, and to have those conversations even before we get into the parties and celebrations and those those things, or to at least the invitation to create space for all of that.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Christmas tide.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: So and the tall days of Christmas and all of that.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, okay.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so much good here.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: And there's there's a lot more that we could talk about and dive into that I'm reframing.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm using self-control.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to touch on this because I feel like you can master some hearts here.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that is just the the reality that the holiday season brings up a lot of difficult feelings.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: And there might be loneliness if you do not have the friends or community or family situation that you desire.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's grief because of loss or because things didn't turn out how you thought this year.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: So what encouragement might you offer?
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: I know this is such an easy task, right?
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: But for those of us who are struggling to find some joy and peace.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: It does.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's so unbelievably difficult.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: But the holidays, unfortunately, you know, for all of their goodness and beauty and wonder and frivolity and all those things, they just tend to highlight all of our heartache as well.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: And you touched on a number of them.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you think you've lost a loved one this last year, it's like, okay, this is the first time that we're sitting down at this table for Christmas Eve and that person's not with us.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe you've got one of those like devastating diagnoses, and it's like, this is the last time that then we might all be able to sit down together.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Or especially as a kid, you know, even this is you know, really kind of as I was just beginning to follow Jesus, uh, that all came on the heels of my parents' separation and divorce.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that just, you know, upends everything that we normally, yeah, like this is how we used to do it, but we are never gonna do it that way again.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then you you know, you add in people that are feeling estranged, maybe as you know, kids estranged for parents, or parents estranged for kids, or whatever that happens to be, or friendships that have gone wonky.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, financial hardship.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's something too that you know, if you're like wanting to provide a particular kind of experience and then just find like we don't have the resources to do this, gee, it can be so, so, so much that you know becomes like this shadow over the entire time.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's what has maybe felt like joy just fills it with grief from there.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think this is one of the reasons why I think advent is so important because advent specifically invites us or encourages us to like name.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: All of those things to name our struggles, to name our longings.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's the only season in the church calendar that is focused on the Old Testament.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: The church calendar is primarily, you know, following the life of Jesus.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: So Advent is this period where we reenter kind of the story of the life of Israel.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: And if you think about Israel's life with God, it was constantly marked by the very things that our lives are often marked with: grief, anxiety, doubt, disappointment, anger, guilt, fear, conflict.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: All of those kind of things are present.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: But interesting, like in their like world, in their culture, they just they like really, I think maybe more freely than we do, gave voice to all of those things and made space for those things.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, where we try to hide them, you know, and pretend, or if we don't feel like we can hide them, then we hide ourselves.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I can compose myself and I can hide, I can kind of keep my emotions tucked away.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: Then you know that I can go out of the house.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: And if I can't, I just better stay in.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: But we find this all over the Old Testament, the Psalms, maybe most in particular, where depending upon how you count and categorize the Psalms, half of them are lament Psalms.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: Half of them are people voicing their complaints, their anger, their fear, their struggles.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: Here we find that they're almost like irreverent rants become holy scripture.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's true.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: You agree, you're like, can you say Can I pray that?
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't think that that's okay.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but their whole life with God is in many ways a struggle.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's one of the ways that people understand the word Israel is to strive or contend or to struggle with God.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: So Advent invites us to join them in that struggle, to join them in that wrestle.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um so it does again become another kind of way of subverting the rest of the culture around us that doesn't want to make space for those things.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think Advent encourages us to not like shy away from those things, but to fully lean into them, to let ourselves grieve again, to let ourselves feel all of those feelings, but to grieve as Christians do, as those with hope, knowing that the tears that we have are not eternal, that someday Christ is going to come again and he's gonna wipe those from our eyes.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: But right now, the tears are still there.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that you know, reminds us of that.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: That the root word Adventist means coming or arrival.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so we live our whole lives between Jesus' first coming and his second coming in the already and the not yet.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, we have access to the presence of Jesus in new ways, and the spirit is with us, and we can experience joy.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, all of those things are true.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, also true that not everything's right, not everything's good, not everything is beautiful, not everything is the way that we want it to be, much less the way not everything is the way that God wants it to be.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so it invites us to kind of come into those spaces, but it's really hard if we're not talking about it in that way, and if we're not creating spaces for each other to do that.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, early earlier this year we had several deaths in our congregation, um, kind of all stacked on top of one another.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was a really, really difficult season.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: And during that time, I came across this Mary Oliver poem where she says, we shake with joy, we shake with grief.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: What a time these two have, housed as they are in the same body.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's true of our experience as people, but it's also experience of the body of Christ.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, on any given Sunday, people are shaking with joy.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: They've had that, you know, they just had a baby, they just got married, they just got engaged, they just got a promotion, they just got a new job, they just had a, you know, a rate, what they're like, yes, they're coming in ready to praise God.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: And there's people that just had a terrible doctor's visit or um, you know, just lost the job, or just had a miscarriage, or just, you know, and all of that is coming in.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that it's per it's heightened in the holidays.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: Some people are getting urine bonuses, some people can't buy their kids presents, and those things are coming into the room.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think as as communities of faith, we have to try to make space for those things.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: And Advent sort of gives us a little bit of extra permission, if you will, to lean into the ache, to lean into the struggle.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I think if if if that's you, you've had you know coming into holidays and it's just so unbelievably difficult.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: I I think the encouragement would be to like let it out, yeah.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like lament, cry, complain, scream, you know, but also try in whatever way you can to lean into community.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah um by by nature, suffering is isolating.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: And the temptation is to withdraw even further.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then you have the holidays, which is sort of turning up the volume on our pain.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so the tendency is just going to be to withdraw, withdrawal, withdraw.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm not gonna go to church, I'm not gonna go to small group, I'm not gonna go talk to my friend, but instead like lean in.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I think also as the church, if we find ourselves in places like we're experiencing all the joy and those kinds uh of things, we have to remember those in our midst who are not experiencing them.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: Make space for that in whatever way that we can.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we just had last Saturday our first All Saints Day service.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's another one of those moments in the church calendar where we just stop and it, you know, and it precedes all the holidays, November 1st or the Sunday closest to November, and we read aloud the names of everybody who's passed, who's been a part of our congregation over our 12-year history.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: And we and we lit a candle in remembrance of them.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: And if family members or friends were there, then they came and gave them remembrances and lit these candles and gave space for tears.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: I know some people do like blue Christmas services.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: Even sometimes in our candlelighting things, we can recognize that yes, there is hope, and yes, there is peace, and yes, there is love, and yes, there is joy, there is those things, we have them in Jesus, but we don't have them in full.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, that means we're still waiting for those things.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we're still waiting for Jesus to come back.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: And as long as we are waiting for Him, um, we're going to experience trouble, we're gonna experience heartache, we're gonna experience loss, we're gonna experience really difficult things and hope and love and joy and peace.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: These are also gonna be elusive as much as they are real.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so, whatever we can do to help hold that tension for one another and creating that kind of space, it's really helpful as the body of Christ to do that together.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: That is so rich.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for speaking into that.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that pops into my mind is the verse that has been on my mind post-election.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: And even something I posted at one point was just Romans 12, 8.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: Rejoice with those who rejoice, mourn with those who mourn.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: Very good time for us to practice that.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think all the time and every day.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: But um, how much more we could offer that in the body of Christ during this Advent season?
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's wonderful, and there's no shame.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: If you can celebrate wholeheartedly without the sharp peeing of loss, that is wonderful.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't negate your joy, the fact that others have loss and grief.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I think as we mature in Christ, we can have the strength to hold that for others and um be able to know.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, as far as I say, as we get older, it only goes more like that.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: And even the counter itself provides rhythms for that.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: Of Advent and Lent invite us into those spaces of pain and sorrow.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: We don't live our whole lives there either, you know.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe if if we're in a space where our whole lives just are feeling like up and to the right, Advent and Lent can be places where we stop and remember the global and historic church and know that not everybody's lives are up and to the right.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: And ours probably won't always be either.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: And even if it feels up and to the right, there may be things underneath the surface that we're not paying attention to that are not necessarily that way.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then also when we find ourselves in places where everything just seems like it's coming apart at the seams, yeah.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, then the Christmas season and the Easter season invite us in our grief and our despair and our pain and suffering to also hold on to gratitude and hope and celebration and feasting, and to allow those things even to be like a prophetic act of resistance.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, this last summer I did like a series for our small groups on play, which I'm not naturally good at, but one of the things that I try to remember if it was Grugamon or who it was, but they describe play that way as a prophetic act of resistance against the powers that that be.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's Bon Bonhoeffer said something along the lines of like in the you know, he's writing The Midst of World War II, who in the midst of all of this could possibly play, could possibly play, could possibly give themselves over to this.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: And his conclusion is only the Christian who says, I have hope beyond all of this, I have joy beyond all of this, I have peace and love in my future, and I'm hoping in those things.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so we we have spaces to do both, and we need the rhythm of both so that in ordinary time, that's right, we we learn to hold them all together, and in our relationships, we learn to hold them together.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I I have found in my own, and I'm sure you would testify to this, that when we give the space to mourn, to grieve, to lament in Advent, the celebration is all the more sweeter in in all the senses and and even in the depths of our soul, where we're able to, I don't know, the joy just seems so much brighter and bigger.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't mean that it negates the sorrow and the pain, but somehow it supersedes the state and is a bomb in itself.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I yeah, there's yeah, so good.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for giving time to that.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: I even like physiologically, sometimes like once we cry a whole ton, sometimes it's like sometimes our bodies start to laugh.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it gets a bit strange.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's just yeah, it's like that's all out.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then all of a sudden we're like, I can't believe I did that.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_01: And we start chuckling, we're like, what has happened?
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it does.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: Grief can open us up to joy.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: I've had clients who have said, I'm afraid to start crying because I I don't know that I'll stop.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I can testify there is a point.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: You just you eventually stop.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: And when you allow yourself, if physiologically we've been created to where there comes to an end that they do just dry and and you can get to that.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: So um I think if you're like, oh if that feeling of like if I start crying, I may not stop.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: I understand there's a time and a place.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: Don't do it when you're driving.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I maybe I have done that once.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but um you would just pull over to the side.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: There's a story.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, um, I just looked at the time and my heart was like, oh my gosh.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm Oh no.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_01: How did that go by already?
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's been so good.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I love two things here.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_00: If you could do first, maybe anything else that you'd love to share with us just before we finish.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_00: But then if you would pray for us.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: And not everyone does that, and it's not always just like, but I feel like this is so fitting and appropriate, and it would I would bless those who listen.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: So your words of wisdom as we finish.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think you know, whatever I'm always really sensitive whenever I talk about anything in the church calendar is that it can just feel like another thing.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh now, now I'm supposed to do this too on top of everything, uh, on the top of everyone else.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: So if you know, if you're like new to this stuff, like just be like really kind, really gentle, really patient with yourself.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: Every practice that we're invited into as followers of Jesus, we learn really slowly over time.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: We make a lot of mess of it most of the time, and then it's like, oh, we think we got a rhythm, and then we make a mess of it again, and it's okay.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_03: So true.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's just part of it.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so just think really, you know, if you're wondering where to get started, um maybe it's as simple as rearranging something.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we we've started to move more things from December into the 12 days of Christmas time period, and just like we're just we'll do that then.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: So we just rearrange a little bit so we don't add something new, we just move it.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that creates space sometimes for people, just maybe you've got a normal rhythm of Jesus, just maybe incorporate one little thing into that time.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_01: So if you if you're reading the scriptures regularly, just read some lament psalms, just incorporate that in.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it doesn't always have to be um adding a ton of new things or just adding an advent wreath and doing that one night a week in your home with your roommates or whatever that happens to be.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think that there's a lot of ways to create space um from there, but just be gentle and remember that the whole point of the thing is to be with Jesus and not just to do another thing, not just to say, like, oh yeah, I do Advent.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's great, but if if observing Advent doesn't lead you deeper into the presence of Jesus, then stop.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's not it's not worth it at that point in time.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, thanks for the invitation to pray to Jesus.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um we enter into this season, the season of preparation of our hearts to once again receive your first coming and to live with anticipation of your second.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_01: As we find ways to um slow down to be with you, is we receive your invitation of the season of admin.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: And as we walk into a holiday time that that may be filled with profound joy, or may be filled with just devastating grief and loss.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_01: I ask for all of us that we would encounter your presence, that you would be with us.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_01: The whole season is preparing us for Emmanuel, God with us, and you are with us, not in just certain moments of our lives, but you are with us in every moment.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_01: So in every moment of celebration, may we be aware of your nearness, your withness, and every moment of pain, of sorrow, of loss, of grief, of disorientation, disappointment, fear and anxiety, whatever other difficult things that we're experiencing, estrangement and loss.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: May we be reminded that you're the God who came near to us, who's still near, it will be with us always until the end of the age.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_01: Make your presence known among us.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_01: In Jesus' name.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_00: Jason, thank you so much.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for leading with integrity and goodness and just doing an excellent job and giving this precious time, even on a snow day, in this conversation.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_01: It was an absolute gift.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_01: So grateful for you and for all the spaces you're creating for people and all the conversations that you're hosting, and that you're a great gift to so many people.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks for the honor to join you and your whole group of people in these conversations.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_01: Bless you and your family.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: And anytime, you are welcome anytime.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_01: Good to see you.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I imagine you understand now why New Life Downtown in Colorado Springs is my home away from home church.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_00: I so admire Pastor Jason and Sarah's loving kindness, their care and compassion, and their gentle shepherding hearts.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_00: They truly embody that pastoral posture and all they do and say and how they lead there at that congregation.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so grateful that you got to hear some of that care and that love and that guidance today.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope it was meaningful in ministering to you.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: May you take what you need and pass it along to others during this time of year.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: If there was something that was especially meaningful to you in this conversation, I would love to know about it.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_00: I never get tired of hearing from you and what you like about the conversations, how you are experiencing them, and what it is you've been encouraged to do in taking the next step.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: It is always great to hear from you.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, I've put the ways to send me a note in the show notes.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_00: Next week, I'll be back to kick off our INIA Christmas series.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be a three-part series with nine of my wholehearted coaches who come on together in different groups to share about some of their favorite Christmas traditions.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: This year I decided to mix it up and break us up into groups representing the instinctual triads of the Enneagram.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, first up, we have our heart types, the Enneagram two, three, and four.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_00: Each conversation was so fun.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_00: Typically, after we were done talking, my cheeks were hurting from smiling so much.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: And there was definitely some giggles along the way.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think you'll appreciate having these conversations to add a little extra cheer this Christmas season.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_00: Be sure and hit the subscribe button to the Simply Wholehearted podcast so you get the next episode as soon as it releases.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_00: Friend, I'm so glad you're here and you're part of this community.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: You mean so much to me.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_00: And remember, we are all broken.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_00: We are all blowing it.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's the brave one who does something about it.