Latest / Goon Tavern / Jezebel Pastors: Cutting Off the Viper's Head | An Interview with Matt Slick

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Jezebel Pastors: Cutting Off the Viper's Head | An Interview with Matt Slick · Goon Tavern

0:00
SPEAKER_02: In recent events of June 2026, the Southern Baptist Convention nearly escaped disaster due to the votes allowing women pastors, with a vote of 76.4% in favor of adding this new addition to their constitution, and 25% voting against it.
0:19
SPEAKER_02: Now, of course, there are many counter-arguments that the opposition side will claim when trying to give justification for female pastors.
0:29
SPEAKER_02: Examples are citing Deborah, Priscilla, Miriam, or Phoebe.
0:34
SPEAKER_02: The frustrating question is: after all this time, why has this false unbiblical teaching of women pastors not been put to rest?
0:44
SPEAKER_02: Currently, too many church leaders are allowing women into positions that they were never meant to have in the first place.
0:53
SPEAKER_02: Is the church blindly adopting feminist ideology without even realizing it?
1:00
SPEAKER_02: The truth is it has been attacking the root of the church for some time now.
1:06
SPEAKER_02: We tend to think that feminism light is acceptable, but the truth is being subtle does not mean it's any less deadly.
1:16
SPEAKER_02: More and more women are trying to push the envelope for pulpit power, fighting control for unbiblical leadership positions.
1:27
SPEAKER_02: As a result, the church is, as of right now, greatly suffering from the serpent's head for not being completely cut off.
1:36
SPEAKER_02: It is bad enough to have pastors that are drenched in cowardice, and the church cannot afford such leadership any longer.
1:45
SPEAKER_02: In addition, too many women that are not for this unbiblical practice are often silent on the issue and are afraid to speak out against their fellow sisters.
1:56
SPEAKER_02: The results of women leading has been a disaster, not only in the church, but politically.
2:04
SPEAKER_02: Oversympathetic, reckless immigration, broken families, high divorce rates, and all the way to having empathy for the alphabet mafia.
2:14
SPEAKER_02: The results are in, and they speak loudly.
2:18
SPEAKER_02: The opposition will say that we are restricting women's God-given gifts.
2:23
SPEAKER_02: But the truth is there are many options for women to do good for the church.
2:28
SPEAKER_02: But the covert feminists, that's still not enough.
2:32
SPEAKER_02: And the question is why?
2:34
SPEAKER_02: Because women have always wanted control, ever since the garden.
2:39
SPEAKER_02: We desperately need true pastors and elders to tell women that one word that they all hate to hear.
2:46
SPEAKER_02: And that word is no.
2:50
SPEAKER_02: Everybody, welcome to the Goon Tavern.
3:40
SPEAKER_04: Because the Bible has become problematic.
3:43
SPEAKER_04: Slaves obey your masters as you do the Lord.
3:46
SPEAKER_04: It's a test.
3:48
SPEAKER_04: Let the women keep signing in the churches, and if they have any questions, let them ask their husbands at home.
3:56
SPEAKER_04: And I'm a believer.
3:58
SPEAKER_04: My whole heart, I trust God with my whole heart.
4:02
SPEAKER_04: I wake up in the morning talking to God and God talking to me.
4:06
SPEAKER_04: But I am completely frustrated with the ways in which the text speaks to the kind of vitriolic God that makes those kinds of things.
4:19
SPEAKER_04: And people will say, Well, it's in the book.
4:21
SPEAKER_04: And I said, Then we need to pour that page out.
4:25
SPEAKER_04: They say, Well, you can't do it.
4:26
SPEAKER_04: It's the word of God.
4:27
SPEAKER_04: I said, No, it's words about God.
4:29
SPEAKER_04: Come on now.
4:30
SPEAKER_04: But is it the word of God?
4:32
SPEAKER_04: No.
4:32
SPEAKER_04: It is not the word of God.
4:36
SPEAKER_02: Well, it doesn't get more crazy than that.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: It does.
4:40
SPEAKER_01: Listen to Democrats on TV.
4:43
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's pretty bad too.
4:45
SPEAKER_02: Oh man.
4:46
SPEAKER_02: Well, anyway, I'm Gene McKeever.
4:48
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Goon Tavern.
4:50
SPEAKER_02: And I am here with Tavern.
4:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: So this is why you have me here.
4:56
SPEAKER_00: You didn't tell me the name of the Tavern Tavern.
4:57
SPEAKER_00: We are the Goon.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: So this is the Goon Tavern.
5:01
SPEAKER_00: The Goon Tavern.
5:02
SPEAKER_00: The first Goon.
5:03
SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's awesome.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: It's all good.
5:04
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the tavern.
5:06
SPEAKER_02: And I am here with an amazing friend.
5:08
SPEAKER_02: And we have known he's known me since a wee little lad.
5:12
SPEAKER_02: And he is the founder and director of Carm Ministry, and who also has a larger website than MRM, but that goes without saying.
5:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
5:22
SPEAKER_02: I have to put that jab in there for my dad.
5:25
SPEAKER_02: And so Matt Slick, welcome to the tavern.
5:28
SPEAKER_02: How are you?
5:29
SPEAKER_01: I'm fine, man.
5:30
SPEAKER_01: We just had some good food and met your wife.
5:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:32
SPEAKER_01: Except for the wedding, but for sure.
5:34
SPEAKER_01: But now here we are.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: And a little fellowships, a little time, a little talk, it'll be good.
5:38
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
5:38
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
5:39
SPEAKER_02: So tell us a little about yourself, like your background, how you got involved in ministry and everything, and so the audience can know about you, also where they can find you as well and harass you.
5:49
SPEAKER_01: I'll do the short version.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: I moved 40 times in my life and 26 before I was 12, 12 different elementary schools, wasn't raised in the church or anything.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: Got involved in the occults and seances.
6:00
SPEAKER_01: I've seen things.
6:01
SPEAKER_01: And I guess a whole other story.
6:03
SPEAKER_01: Got tricked into being saved, a very dramatic conversion experience.
6:08
SPEAKER_01: And uh then about 1980, a friend of mine read, I'm almost 70, a friend of mine read me Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, page 408, 409.
6:17
SPEAKER_01: He boasted he did more than Jesus to even keep keeping church together.
6:20
SPEAKER_01: And I can read quote you the whole thing, but that's what he said and made me mad.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: So I started studying who is this guy?
6:26
SPEAKER_01: And from there I went to Jehovah's Witnesses from there, Christian science, from there learning theology.
6:32
SPEAKER_01: And I found out, because I'm autistic, and a lot of people don't know this, but I have Asperger's.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: I was diagnosed when I was in my early 50s.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: And so we Aspies generally, some of us, are able to remember patterns and numbers, and that's with me.
6:45
SPEAKER_01: So I'm able to remember theological patterns and numbers and things like that scriptures and see how things interrelate.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: And it became easy for me to answer questions.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: And so before the internet came up, after I got my Master's of Divinity from Westminster Theological Seminary, yes, I'm a slimy Calvinist.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: And and so there's things called the bulletin boards.
7:03
SPEAKER_01: You dial up with those old phones, and then you put up, you'd read something, download it, write something up, upload it later.
7:13
SPEAKER_01: And did this, and then people started answering me, asking me questions, and I started having the same answers.
7:17
SPEAKER_01: I just had this ability to answer questions and about the Bible.
7:20
SPEAKER_01: I love the Bible, love my Lord.
7:22
SPEAKER_01: And then I created this website called CARM, which Christian Apologetics Research Ministry.
7:27
SPEAKER_01: Which is excellent, by the way.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, excellent, by the way.
7:29
SPEAKER_01: You gotta check it out.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we've had over 150 million visitors, 92 million come back.
7:34
SPEAKER_01: And I've written about 5,000 articles there, 30 years old.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: And I just started it, so I didn't have to write uh rewrite everything at the same time.
7:41
SPEAKER_01: I didn't think anything would happen with it, and boom, it just exploded.
7:45
SPEAKER_01: And it's one of the earliest apologetics websites on the net.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: For a while it was the only one really being accessed.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: Now other sites are being accessed and things are changing.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: But that was it.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: Been on radio also for about 23 years, written several books, and uh done, I don't know, 50 to 100 debates formally and a lot of impromptu debates.
8:04
SPEAKER_01: There you go.
8:04
SPEAKER_01: And my last name really is Slick.
8:06
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
8:07
SPEAKER_01: Really is Slick.
8:08
SPEAKER_01: That's my real name.
8:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and you also have a daughter named Grace Slick, which is Grace Slick has no relation to a Fleetwood Mac, of course, but Grace Slick, no, it's Isaac Air.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's right.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm mixing those up.
8:20
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, so we didn't name her for that, but White Rabbit's a good song.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: But it's just we like the word Grace.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: So all of our daughters are named that Grace Slick.
8:27
SPEAKER_01: And anyway.
8:28
SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
8:29
SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna get into a hot topic because you are like me.
8:33
SPEAKER_02: We both like people like to tell us we like to poke the bear.
8:37
SPEAKER_02: I like to say I just poking demons in the eyes.
8:40
SPEAKER_02: That's how I like to look at it.
8:41
SPEAKER_01: I poke I poke elephants.
8:43
SPEAKER_01: Elephants?
8:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I really go for the big game.
8:45
SPEAKER_02: I didn't know you were in the circus.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I'm a clown sometimes.
8:50
SPEAKER_02: But the topic we're gonna talk about tonight, because it just seems like this is a serpent that keeps growing ahead.
8:57
SPEAKER_02: You cut one off, it comes back.
8:59
SPEAKER_02: And as our friendly bishop lady, quote unquote, in that clip, there's so many women that even though they don't have the title of pastors, they either act like pastors as well.
9:10
SPEAKER_02: And I you would think at this point in the church, it would be something that'd be laid to rest that would just be clear, like scripture's clear.
9:16
SPEAKER_02: Why are we still having this discussion?
9:19
SPEAKER_02: But there's always someone that's gonna come up and have a defense for it or some excuse to basically do something that is obviously unbiblical.
9:27
SPEAKER_02: And so I thought it would be fun to just kind of go through some of those main points that the opposition always brings up with female pastors.
9:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, it is.
9:37
SPEAKER_02: Something about Timothy, you know, and Corinthians, I don't know, something about that.
9:41
SPEAKER_02: But uh so I'll start with the first one and I'll have you like obviously respond.
9:44
SPEAKER_02: We'll go down the list here.
9:45
SPEAKER_02: So you obviously have Galatians 3.20, it says there's neither male nor female, and Paul says that there's neither male nor female, so role one in Christ.
9:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so gender should not limit ministry roles.
9:58
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it's and so what would you say to that?
10:01
SPEAKER_02: Because it seems like it seems like you're saying that men and women are equal.
10:04
SPEAKER_02: Is that what you're saying, Matt?
10:05
SPEAKER_01: Or when people bring up Galatians 3.28 to me and they use it in the reference in the context of women pastors and elders, I say, look, I need to teach you a four-letter word.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, it's a bad word, four-letter word, you're not gonna like it, but context.
10:21
SPEAKER_01: You need to understand what context is.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: And they go, Is that a four-letter word?
10:24
SPEAKER_01: Oh, it is to you, it will be.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: You see, uh because the phrase in Christ is a term of federal headship, and it's not of pastoral authority.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: Federal headship is that the male, not the female, represents a descendant.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: So in Adam all die.
10:38
SPEAKER_01: First Corinthians 15 22.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: In Christ, all should be made alive.
10:41
SPEAKER_01: I'm getting a lot of verses about this.
10:43
SPEAKER_01: We go to Hebrews 7, 7 through 10.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: But it's a term of federal headship.
10:46
SPEAKER_01: And Eve, Adam and Eve were in the garden, she sinned first, and Adam sinned after she did, because she ate the fruit, the fruit first, but sin entered the world through him, Romans 5.12, not through her.
10:58
SPEAKER_01: He's the federal head.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: Romans 5.19, through the trespass of the one, that's Adam, the many were made sinners.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: He represented us.
11:06
SPEAKER_01: And if you rec reject that, you've got to reject the fact that Christ represented us on the cross.
11:10
SPEAKER_01: And that's a whole other soteriological study.
11:13
SPEAKER_01: All right.
11:13
SPEAKER_01: So in Christ is a deal dealing with federal headship representation.
11:18
SPEAKER_01: And so this is about salvation, whether it's neither male nor female, Greek or Scythian, but all one in Christ.
11:25
SPEAKER_01: We're all one in our salvific mode.
11:27
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter who where you're coming from.
11:29
SPEAKER_01: That's what it is salvifically.
11:31
SPEAKER_01: And it has not anything to do with pastors, women being pastors and elders.
11:35
SPEAKER_01: So people generally, when they hold this position, they sometimes will say to them, This is just for fun for this, you couldn't exegete your way out of a wet paper bag if it was on a centrifuge on NASA centrifuse, and you couldn't get out.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: And I try to make light of things and have fun, but they do not understand this basic principle called context.
11:56
SPEAKER_01: And that's what it is.
11:57
SPEAKER_02: And I have a feeling that probably several of these that will come up that will be the case.
12:01
SPEAKER_02: But for the sake of just answer all these questions, because it's fair to answer those that obviously have criticism about this.
12:07
SPEAKER_02: Number two would be women were the first witnesses of the resurrection.
12:10
SPEAKER_02: So the argument would be God chose women to be the first witnesses and proclaimers of the risen Christ, showing that women can publicly communicate the gospel.
12:19
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
12:21
SPEAKER_02: No problem.
12:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but they would say that's an indication that they are doing that.
12:25
SPEAKER_02: Is that the same as preaching, you would say, as as it's not.
12:29
SPEAKER_01: Proclaiming the gospel, anybody can do that.
12:31
SPEAKER_01: They're not to be pastors and teachers.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: The scriptures forbid that, and I can get into that if you want, which I hope we do.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: But having women evangelists is not a problem.
12:38
SPEAKER_01: When I was in seminary, went to Westminster Seminary, and it was a very staunch Calvinistic seminary, and uh, we had a week-long uh period where we opened up the classes to everybody in the neighborhood.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: Anybody and everybody could come in, and they flew in a woman to teach on what women can do and how they can be used in the church.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: And I thought this is gonna be fantastic.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna get my master of divinity, I'm gonna be a pastor, I need to know uh from an expert, a woman, about this.
13:07
SPEAKER_01: This is not a church, it's a seminary.
13:10
SPEAKER_01: And so this place was packed, and I was the only male in the entire class.
13:16
SPEAKER_01: Really bothered me because there is a I get into a sidestep here of things of people that they have wrong ideas about wrong kinds of stuff.
13:25
SPEAKER_01: It's not women can preach, they could preach the gospel out in the street.
13:29
SPEAKER_01: It's not what we're talking about is ecclesiastical authority that is forbidden for them to be that, and there's a theological reason a lot of people are not aware of.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: But they can preach, they can do the gospel, they can give it.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: My wife, my my late wife, she sometimes would say things, and I knew they were from the Lord, and I would just listen because she's not the gift of knowledge, not the gift of wisdom she married me, but but you can't.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: It was love blind you.
13:55
SPEAKER_01: And so she had these abilities.
13:56
SPEAKER_02: Oh, you're so good looking.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that's why I'm on radio.
13:59
SPEAKER_01: I have a face for radio.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I would learn to trust in her abilities, but it was never the case that she could preach or teach the gospel in a church context because it can't it's not for women, and I can get into that.
14:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so so then i if that would be the case, because obviously how a lot of ladies respond is like, you are you have the Holy Spirit, I have the Holy Spirit.
14:21
SPEAKER_02: There's no difference between a male or female that has the Holy Spirit.
14:24
SPEAKER_02: So therefore, yes, there is.
14:26
SPEAKER_02: No, because if God has picked them, Matt Transgender?
14:31
SPEAKER_01: There's no difference between a male and a female in Christ.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: What do you mean there's no difference?
14:35
SPEAKER_01: What kind of difference are you talking about?
14:37
SPEAKER_01: That's a good point.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: Because the issue here is that what it what often occurs, okay, the word penumbra means the gray area between light and dark when you have a shadow.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: The penumbra of meaning.
14:47
SPEAKER_01: A lot of people will hide their doctrines in the penumbra or the gray areas of something, and they try and make doctrines out of something that's not clear.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: So we're all male and female, we're all equal.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: So you see, what does that really mean?
14:59
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of a gray area if you just throw it out.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: What does it mean in the context of how it's used?
15:03
SPEAKER_01: And context, like I say, is a four-letter word to a lot of people.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: It's something you can't utter, but they need to because they need to understand what the Bible actually teaches so they can stop being recalcitrant individuals who take things out of context, misapply the word of God, and then devise theology that makes them feel better about themselves and the world.
15:23
SPEAKER_02: So when a lady comes up to her pastor and says, I feel I have the gift of let's say leadership in the sense do you think there's limitations on what that looks like?
15:37
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
15:38
SPEAKER_02: Where would those be, you'd say?
15:39
SPEAKER_01: If I were a pastor again and a woman came up to me and said, I think I have the gift of leadership, I'm not going to dismiss her at all.
15:46
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to say, Okay, I'll tell you what, you want to talk now or you want to talk later?
15:50
SPEAKER_01: And we'd arrange a meeting where I'm not alone with her, et cetera.
15:53
SPEAKER_01: But we know right context with her husband there if she's married, whatever it is.
15:56
SPEAKER_01: And we'd have a discussion.
15:57
SPEAKER_01: I'd say, okay, what do you think it means and how do you can you use it?
16:00
SPEAKER_01: What areas?
16:01
SPEAKER_01: Because the body of Christ includes women and they're gifted in great many areas.
16:05
SPEAKER_01: And so I would want to know.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: Now I would make sure that she understood the boundaries of scripture, that she cannot be a preacher, teacher, an elder in a place of ecclesiastical authority in the church.
16:15
SPEAKER_01: You can't do that.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: That leadership is not her position, and the scriptures declare why.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: We can get into that.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: But other areas, I say, well, yeah, you don't want to do Sunday school, you want to teach other women?
16:24
SPEAKER_01: I don't have a problem with that.
16:25
SPEAKER_01: Also, let's just say hypothetically, there's a woman who was a missionary with her husband in another country for years, and there's going to be a Sunday school class, and men and women are going to be gathered in the Sunday school class.
16:35
SPEAKER_01: I would say, come on in and teach them all what it was you went through, what you experienced, how the Lord did stuff.
16:42
SPEAKER_02: Like a testimony or testimony or faith.
16:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: It's not a preaching ecclesiastical authority because the preaching of the Word of God is the Word of God.
16:50
SPEAKER_02: I see.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: And so we need to be aware.
16:52
SPEAKER_01: And what I try and do is say, what can a woman do?
16:56
SPEAKER_01: Not what can she not do, but what can she do?
16:59
SPEAKER_02: Because that's always the first question that's always asked.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: And you can do all kinds of things and move along, except the area of preaching and teaching from the pulpits.
17:07
SPEAKER_01: You can't be an elder.
17:08
SPEAKER_01: That's ecclesiastical authority, that's forbidden of scripture.
17:10
SPEAKER_01: Bishops, deacons, and elders.
17:12
SPEAKER_01: We can get into that.
17:13
SPEAKER_01: And that's it.
17:13
SPEAKER_01: Up to that, you can do all kinds of stuff.
17:15
SPEAKER_01: They should be used.
17:17
SPEAKER_02: This might be, I'm curious what you'll think about this because I just thought about this.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: Let's say you have Is it the title itself of a pastor?
17:25
SPEAKER_02: So here's a question, because I know that some churches are okay with this.
17:28
SPEAKER_02: That they would be okay with a female youth pastor.
17:33
SPEAKER_01: Wrong.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:35
SPEAKER_02: Now, some would say, what's the problem?
17:37
SPEAKER_02: Because it's like youth.
17:39
SPEAKER_02: But what would you would say like it's wrong, but for what reasons would you give their because then they say, oh, there's a pastor, woman pastor of youth.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: Then they don't know anything because they've been taught incorrectly by the false teachers that are in that church, probably.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: And then they move away, go to another church, where there's a woman pastor.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: Well, they have a woman pastor of youth.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: Now we can have a woman pastor of a church.
18:00
SPEAKER_01: What's wrong?
18:00
SPEAKER_01: Because the word pastor was applied to a woman.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: And so the equivocation of this can lead to heresy and error.
18:06
SPEAKER_01: And by the way, I've written a great deal on this.
18:08
SPEAKER_01: I've done a lot of research on this topic, and I've had a lot of debates and discussions on it.
18:12
SPEAKER_01: And 80% of the churches and denominations that adopt women pastors and elders within two generations adopt and approve of homosexuality.
18:20
SPEAKER_02: I believe it.
18:21
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
18:22
SPEAKER_01: And my radio show, I've been doing radio now for five days a week over 21 years.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: And I have, I can't even tell you how many times I have offered without a single time anyone's taken me up on it.
18:32
SPEAKER_01: Where I've said, I will fly to your church and I will debate the topic formally.
18:36
SPEAKER_01: Does the Bible support women, pastors, and elders?
18:38
SPEAKER_01: And I've said, I'll fly out, my own expense, everything.
18:41
SPEAKER_01: Let's debate it.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm on 16 or 20 stations now, but not a single taker ever.
18:47
SPEAKER_01: Because they don't because they don't want to submit themselves to the clarity of the word of God.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: They want to submit the word of God to themselves.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: And this is part of the apostasy that's coming.
18:56
SPEAKER_01: Women, pastors, and elders are part of the apostasy.
18:59
SPEAKER_01: We'll get into it.
19:00
SPEAKER_01: I'll explain why theologically.
19:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
19:02
SPEAKER_02: Number three would be like, okay, what about Priscilla?
19:04
SPEAKER_02: Because she helped teach Apollos like an Acts 1826.
19:08
SPEAKER_02: Would you say that is a way of her because some would say she's teaching a man, Matt.
19:14
SPEAKER_02: Does that mean that could be a little skewed when it says that I do not permit a woman to teach and exercise authority over men?
19:23
SPEAKER_02: Isn't that what Priscilla's doing to Apollos?
19:25
SPEAKER_02: Women can teach men all kinds of things.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: Because they can my wife taught me, I'm not saying she taught me humility.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: Hey, look, I'm humble now.
19:35
SPEAKER_01: But she taught me patience and kindness and things that wait.
19:38
SPEAKER_01: And she had insights into the scriptures sometimes that I would learn from her.
19:41
SPEAKER_01: She's a good woman, except for her taste in men, but she was a good woman.
19:44
SPEAKER_01: For those who don't know, my wife passed away a few months ago.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: And so the thing is they can be used a great deal.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: Okay, but they're not to be an ecclesiastical authority structure position.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: I keep saying it that way.
19:56
SPEAKER_01: So Priscilla was used and she could certainly teach.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: It's not a problem to have a woman teach a man.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: It's she's not in an authoritative position in the church.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: And that's the issue.
20:07
SPEAKER_01: You can't be in that authority position because of what Paul says in 1 Timothy 2, 12 and 13, which you partially quoted.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: Do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man but remain silent.
20:19
SPEAKER_01: That's the word Hesukia in Greek, but remain silent.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: For it was Adam who was first created.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: Now there's a lot in that verse that needs to be unpacked for people to understand.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: Because the next chapter 3, verse 15, Paul says, I'm giving you instruction on how you're to behave in the household of God.
20:34
SPEAKER_01: He's specifically saying, I'm teaching this how to be in the household of God, the church, which is the pillar of foundation of truth.
20:40
SPEAKER_01: He's talking about ecclesiastical structure comprised of the people, elders, bishops, deacons, the laity, etc.
20:47
SPEAKER_01: This is what he's talking about.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: So when he says it do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over man, but to remain silent, the word silent there is Hesukia.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: The word sagao is absolute quiet, nothing, not a peep.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: Hesokiah means, hey, be more Hesokiah, be more silent.
21:04
SPEAKER_01: Okay, you're silent.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, can you keep it down even more?
21:07
SPEAKER_01: That's what Hesukia means.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean they're not speaking, it doesn't mean they don't have any ability to do anything in the church.
21:13
SPEAKER_01: They're not to teach or exercise authority, because teaching by definition is authoritative.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: You go to 1 Timothy 5, 17, and Paul says that you give double honor to the elders, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.
21:27
SPEAKER_01: So the elder or the pastor, the preacher, is by default default an elder.
21:32
SPEAKER_01: And they're to be given double honor because this is the nature of what an elder is as a teacher in that church.
21:38
SPEAKER_01: So the back to 1 Timothy 2, 12 13, don't you can't teach or exercise authority because they're related to each other.
21:47
SPEAKER_01: The teaching authority, like I say, the teaching authority, teach or exercise authority, because you have when you teach, you're in authority, but there's a different kind of authority too, which is exercised by elders and bishops, which are basically interchangeable.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: In 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1.
22:02
SPEAKER_01: But so the issue here is because it was Adam who was first created.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: Now, why is this significant?
22:08
SPEAKER_01: Because he says Adam was first created.
22:12
SPEAKER_01: First is critical.
22:14
SPEAKER_01: It's called primogeniture.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: The firstborn male has more rights than the rest of the males in the family, because he's the firstborn.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: Jesus is called the firstborn from creation, right?
22:26
SPEAKER_01: Colossians 1, 15 to 17.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: So the issue here is that when he says Adam was first created, it's going back to the created order because Adam was the first one created, and then he named the animals, designating his authority, and he named Eve, designating his authority.
22:43
SPEAKER_01: This is the created order of God.
22:46
SPEAKER_01: So this wonky woman who does not know what exegesis is, this bishop, which she's disqualified from being for lots of reasons, does not understand what she wants to say, the Bible's got problems, let's change this.
22:59
SPEAKER_01: This is what God said.
23:00
SPEAKER_01: He created Adam and gave him the authority, and he named the animals, and he named his wife.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: This is because he's the one in that authority, and sin entered the world through him, because he was the one in authority.
23:11
SPEAKER_01: That's how it works.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: This is why Paul equates this back to the created order.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: And the created order, I just need to say this, people need to understand this, is related to the doctrine of the Trinity.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: God is one being in three distinct, simultaneous, co-eternal persons.
23:26
SPEAKER_01: But it's the Father who sent the Son.
23:29
SPEAKER_01: There is a kind of hierarchy, not a subordinationism where there's a difference in nature.
23:36
SPEAKER_01: But what we say, what I mean by this is the Father sent the Son, the Father and Son send the Holy Spirit.
23:41
SPEAKER_01: It's only the Son who became incarnate.
23:44
SPEAKER_01: So Jesus came to do the will of the Father, not his own will.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: You can go to John 6, 37 through 40 for that.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: So there's a so-to-speak hierarchy.
23:51
SPEAKER_01: Now I'm going to be careful how I say that.
23:53
SPEAKER_01: I want people to think there's an inequality.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: There's not.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: Because Jesus is equal to the Father, John 5.
23:58
SPEAKER_01: John 5.18.
23:59
SPEAKER_01: You can go to Colossians 2.9.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: I can give you all these verses.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: But he was in a voluntary lesser position of submission so that the will of the Father could be accomplished.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: Because he says, I came to do not my will, but the will of him who sent me, John 6, 39 and 40.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: So 38, 49.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: So this is what's going on.
24:17
SPEAKER_01: And so the wife is in a position in marriage of the Christ, who is willingly submitting to the authority of the Father, which is represented by the husband.
24:26
SPEAKER_01: It's not an inferiority thing.
24:28
SPEAKER_01: This is carried over into the primogeniture of Adam and Eve.
24:33
SPEAKER_01: He was the first one created.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: He has this place.
24:35
SPEAKER_01: This is Jewish theology.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: This is God theology.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: And Paul refers to that on why there not to be an authority.
24:43
SPEAKER_02: What about because with the Genesis part two, it talks about how Eve was made for Adam.
24:50
SPEAKER_02: And some would look at that and say, that's like implying, like, because she's made for man, that like therefore she has less value.
24:57
SPEAKER_02: No.
24:58
SPEAKER_01: Oh no.
24:58
SPEAKER_01: My wife was a good helper to me in the ministry.
25:01
SPEAKER_01: And we were talking downstairs at dinner.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: One of the things I really loved that she would do when I'd be preaching or teaching, because I'm full of, let's just say, I got a lot to say.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: And so she had a signal sometimes when she would scratch her nose.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: Look at me, just slowly scratch it.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: And I knew that meant from her, because she's down there listening, saying, You need to slow down or go over this again, or whatever it was.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: And I was very appreciative of that.
25:26
SPEAKER_01: And I was learnt from her and it actually helped guide me into becoming a better teacher.
25:31
SPEAKER_01: She was a helpmate in that way, and no one ever knew it.
25:35
SPEAKER_01: God did.
25:35
SPEAKER_01: Of course, when I tell people about it, but it was very helpful.
25:39
SPEAKER_01: And there's lots of ways that she would help.
25:41
SPEAKER_01: And she did the stuff in the car ministry that I don't like doing, like caring about people and talking to them nicely.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: No, the bookwork stuff, the book of book stuff.
25:52
SPEAKER_01: I hate doing all that book stuff, but I don't mind talking about them.
25:54
SPEAKER_02: My mom does the same for my dad, too.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: And it's very helpful.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: And what the women want to do is they want impart the glory.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: They want impart the glory.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: And now I'm going to take a tangent here and go to 1 Peter 3, I think it's 1 Peter 3, where Sarah called Abraham Lord.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: And I've taught this theology of marriage many times.
26:12
SPEAKER_01: And I said, Would you women, women in the class, would you call your husband Lord?
26:16
SPEAKER_01: And they all say, Of course not.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: Then why did Sarah do it?
26:20
SPEAKER_01: They say, because she's not the Lord the same way Jesus is.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: I didn't say was.
26:25
SPEAKER_01: And Peter's the one who said it.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: What is he saying and why is he saying it?
26:30
SPEAKER_01: It's not a position of inferiority, it's a recognition of headship.
26:35
SPEAKER_03: How dare you?
26:37
SPEAKER_01: What's her name?
26:38
SPEAKER_01: It's an issue of headship, not of anything else.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: Jesus was under the headship of the Father.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: To say that Jesus, who is submitting to the Father, he said he could do nothing except what he saw the Father do, and he came not to do his own will, but the will of him who sent me, John 6, 37, 38, also John 5.19, John 5.30, then if they're going to say the woman's inferior to the husband because she's in submission to the husband, then Jesus is inferior to the father because he's in submission to the Father.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: That's not true.
27:06
SPEAKER_01: Women need to stop listening to the feminazis out there who are teaching unbiblical truths.
27:11
SPEAKER_02: And it's interesting you brought up the Trinity too, because that was what when I started to just do a little more diving to try to see the other side's perspective, that's honestly what really did it for me, because I was like, wait, if there's even order in the Trinity and there's like there's actual structure, why would we if Jesus was able to do that and there's structure also in the home, like why do we buck against that?
27:36
SPEAKER_02: It's the same kind of, it's not the same, but it's the same argument, like where a homosexual will say, I have my sexuality how I want to practice it.
27:44
SPEAKER_02: Why can't I?
27:45
SPEAKER_02: It's like because you didn't create it.
27:47
SPEAKER_02: God designed sex for a certain specific reason and within the confines of marriage between one man and one woman.
27:55
SPEAKER_02: And it's the same thing where there's structure also in the home.
27:58
SPEAKER_02: It'd be as chaotic as having two steering wheels at the same time.
28:02
SPEAKER_02: It's like you're not going to get a d car to go in the right direction if both are driving with steering wheels.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: You have two steering wheels in your car?
28:09
SPEAKER_02: No, but that'd be kind of interesting.
28:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it would be.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it would work, but women often want the res they want the same authority, but they don't want the same responsibility.
28:21
SPEAKER_02: I would agree with that.
28:22
SPEAKER_02: And I think I think even goes beyond marriage a lot.
28:25
SPEAKER_02: I think it's like one thing that ladies get upset at me about, but I'll say, I don't think you should vote until you're 26.
28:30
SPEAKER_02: And they're like, why 26?
28:31
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, because men from 18 to 25 have to be registered for the draft, and then if they don't, they can face fines of$200,000 and five years in prison.
28:40
SPEAKER_02: And they go to fight and die in wars that you vote for that you are not beholding to.
28:46
SPEAKER_02: Don't get me wrong, I do not want women in the military.
28:48
SPEAKER_02: I think that is the job of men to be the protector.
28:51
SPEAKER_02: On the front line.
28:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:54
SPEAKER_02: So that's the thing I would say, like number four was the other one I wanted to bring up is you have Phoebe as a deacon, they would say in Romans 16, 12.
29:02
SPEAKER_02: Do you are people because I know like the I forget the Greek word, but it's the same word for servant.
29:09
SPEAKER_01: Diakonos.
29:10
SPEAKER_02: And would that be the same?
29:12
SPEAKER_02: Because then the question would be like, was Jesus a deacon as well?
29:15
SPEAKER_01: Yes, in fact, Jesus is called an apostle also.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: People don't know that.
29:19
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's just Diakonos.
29:21
SPEAKER_01: It just means servant.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: And so she was a servant among the apostles and things like that.
29:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no problem.
29:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:26
SPEAKER_01: But you see, specifically in first, look in Titus chapter one, starting at verse five, in 1 Timothy 3, starting about verse 5 or 6, whatever, you can get in and you can start reading where it is clearly as talking that the excuse me, the bishop, episcopas, the presb the elder presbuteras, and the deacon Diaconos, are to be husbands of one wife.
29:49
SPEAKER_01: These are declarations.
29:50
SPEAKER_01: Now someone might say, what if they're not married?
29:52
SPEAKER_01: Normatively speaking, in that culture, men were married very early, arranged marriages.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: It was just normal.
29:57
SPEAKER_01: So it was just understood.
29:58
SPEAKER_01: You were married.
29:58
SPEAKER_01: You took her to be husbands of one wife.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: They're husbands, because that's what you are.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: That's what you do.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: You get married, and husbands of one wife.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: And it's in it's against polygamy.
30:09
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
30:10
SPEAKER_01: So then, and the reason of that is because Adam and Eve one wife, one husband, one wife.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: So how does a woman become an armies gunikas in the Greek?
30:18
SPEAKER_01: A husband or a man of one woman, of one wife.
30:21
SPEAKER_01: Well, woman cannot do that, and by definition, an elder is a pastor's an elder out of 1 Timothy 5.17, then it's not possible for a woman to be the husband of one wife.
30:33
SPEAKER_01: I've had women tell me, or some people tell me, no, what that really means is that you can be a woman can be the husband of one wife.
30:40
SPEAKER_01: I said, okay, how does that work?
30:42
SPEAKER_01: Because it just means being faithful.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: And I say, okay, there's this word I gotta teach you.
30:49
SPEAKER_01: Bad word.
30:50
unknown: Context.
30:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm constantly doing this with people to get them to learn how to exegute scripture and to submit to scripture.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: When women don't want to submit to God, then it means they're not submitting to scripture.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: If they want the scriptures to be what they want, they want God to be what they want.
31:11
SPEAKER_01: This is idolatry.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: The Bible talks about in 1 Timothy 4 that there's going to be a time when they're not going to listen to sound doctrine, they're going to bring teachers to tickle their ears.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: This is what's occurring.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: It's a and partially, and this is a bit of a topic that's not generally brought up in this.
31:29
SPEAKER_01: One of the reasons women pastors exist is because men are failing to do their jobs.
31:33
SPEAKER_01: Men need to stand up and say no more of this stuff, this crap.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: We're not doing this.
31:37
SPEAKER_01: Women are not to be pastors and teachers.
31:39
SPEAKER_02: And when men that could be also a little bit of because a lot of seminaries have also gone pretty left and woke.
31:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
31:47
SPEAKER_02: Do you think that's kind of linked to it as well that's burn them down?
31:51
SPEAKER_02: In love, just burn them down.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: In love.
31:53
SPEAKER_01: Just burn them down.
31:54
SPEAKER_01: What I do is see, I'm not okay.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm a five-point Calvinist, omillenal Petobaptist, non-cessationist.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: And I say that because that's just what I am.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: I'm not loyal to a denomination.
32:04
SPEAKER_01: I'm not a pastor anymore.
32:06
SPEAKER_01: I was a pastor in PCA, an assistant pastor in the CRC, Christian Church, uh, Christian Reformed Church in America, and PCA was Presbyterian Church, not the liberal stuff.
32:15
SPEAKER_01: But at any rate, I'm not I'm not in official clergy anymore.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm not loyal to anybody.
32:21
SPEAKER_01: I don't have to read the Bible and make sure that I'm writing, reading it in a way that agrees with the Baptist 1689 confession, or Westminster Confession, or the Belgian Confession, or whatever it might be.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: I can just read it for what it says, and I don't care if people don't like what I think.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: I don't mean that flippantly.
32:38
SPEAKER_01: I mean sure.
32:39
SPEAKER_01: And so my loyalty is to my word, not my word, but to the word of God.
32:42
SPEAKER_01: He's my Lord.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: And so his word, he's my Lord.
32:45
SPEAKER_01: I'm loyal to him and what it says.
32:47
SPEAKER_01: So I don't have to interpret anything in light of a denominational thing to keep my job.
32:52
SPEAKER_01: I just say what it says.
32:53
SPEAKER_01: And so it says women are not to be pastors and elders.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: And I can give you the verses, I can do all this stuff, and that's it.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: But men are not doing their jobs.
33:01
SPEAKER_01: Men, I like to say in the radio sometimes, men are better than women at almost everything.
33:06
SPEAKER_01: Better cooks, better race car drivers, better weightlifters, better gardeners, better murderers, better serial killers, better extortionists.
33:15
SPEAKER_01: All right.
33:16
SPEAKER_01: Because men excel.
33:17
SPEAKER_01: And if you give a man a reason to do nothing but obey his sinful weakness, then he'll excel at it and let women take over.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: This is what Satan wants because men are the ones who are called to stand forth.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: So in the day of judgment, think about this.
33:35
SPEAKER_01: This is the proof of this is found after the fall.
33:38
SPEAKER_01: Adam and Eve hid themselves.
33:40
SPEAKER_01: Now, who sinned first?
33:42
SPEAKER_01: Eve.
33:43
SPEAKER_01: Who gave the fruit to Adam to be tempted?
33:46
SPEAKER_01: Eve.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: They both left the garden, they both hid themselves, excuse me.
33:52
SPEAKER_01: Both hid themselves, excuse me.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: They covered themselves with fig leaves.
33:56
SPEAKER_01: The preincarnate Christ came in and said to the man, Where are you?
34:03
SPEAKER_01: He didn't say, Eve, what have you done?
34:06
SPEAKER_01: He didn't say that.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: He said, He didn't say Adam and Eve.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: He said to the man, Where are you?
34:14
SPEAKER_01: The first question was to the responsible party, the one in authority.
34:20
SPEAKER_01: And so he blamed the woman.
34:22
SPEAKER_01: The woman you gave me, okay?
34:25
SPEAKER_01: Casting dispersions on God's ability to ordain truth and order, okay?
34:31
SPEAKER_01: And it's on her.
34:33
SPEAKER_01: Men have this ability, a lot of times, men have this ability to sit there and do little.
34:40
SPEAKER_02: So to push back a little bit, Eve also blames a serpent.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I'm talking about the man's responsibility.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: Oh, sure.
34:48
SPEAKER_01: And the man's responsibility.
34:50
SPEAKER_02: Sure, no problem.
34:52
SPEAKER_02: There we go.
34:53
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a good thing.
34:54
SPEAKER_02: Got some technical difficulties here.
34:57
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
34:57
SPEAKER_01: No, how come it all of a sudden change?
34:59
SPEAKER_01: Okay, anyway.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: So the thing is that men are the ones, I really hold men responsible because that's what's going to happen.
35:06
SPEAKER_01: Just as the preincarnate Christ came to Adam first, he's going to come to men first.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: And so women, they want that freedom, they want that authority, but they don't want the responsibility that comes along with it.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: They will often turn to men to take that the brunt of damage, of problems.
35:23
SPEAKER_01: You got to fix this, you gotta do that, you gotta be the protector.
35:26
SPEAKER_01: And so there's an imbalance.
35:28
SPEAKER_01: And when men permit the imbalance, then they are encouraging sin.
35:35
SPEAKER_01: And so men are capable, are just as I'll say responsible, culpable in this.
35:41
SPEAKER_01: So in light of this, I think men need to be taught as men, women as women.
35:45
SPEAKER_01: I would like to see a church, for example, where you go into the church and it's a man's church.
35:52
SPEAKER_01: Now I mean this in exaggeration, but let me make my point.
35:55
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
35:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:56
SPEAKER_01: You go into the church, and on the walls is a mural of the disciples in the fishing boat during a storm, and they are struggling.
36:06
SPEAKER_01: And one guy's fallen down, a little blood on his hair, the storm is out there.
36:10
SPEAKER_01: Jesus is off in the distance walking towards them.
36:13
SPEAKER_01: It's all representative.
36:14
SPEAKER_01: And the boat, it's at a 45-degree angle, and the wave is ready to come over the top, and the side of the boat, I don't know what's called, is just a few inches above the water, and they're pulling up on the net.
36:24
SPEAKER_01: This is masculine, this is manly, this is what Jesus called to be the teachers.
36:32
SPEAKER_01: And wouldn't it be nice to see that on a mural?
36:37
SPEAKER_01: But what happens is we get up to our alarm clock and our heated houses, we go get a shower in our heated showers, we go downstairs, the microwave our breakfast.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: We I have my coffee maker, hit the button, put the pot in, boom, there it is.
36:54
SPEAKER_01: Get my out of my refrigerator, get my creamer, I put it into my thermos, I get in my air-conditioned GPS drive-driven car with comfort seats.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: I have air conditioned in my seats, power steering, and I go to the church.
37:08
SPEAKER_01: I go to a church and I hear a nice message.
37:10
SPEAKER_01: Oh, but first before I hear the message, I go in and nice people are nice people.
37:13
SPEAKER_01: They give me a nice bulletin.
37:15
SPEAKER_01: They go sit down in a nice chair, nice, comfortable, and nice music.
37:17
SPEAKER_01: Makes me feel good.
37:18
SPEAKER_01: And I get a sermon that's about how good we are and how lovely we are.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: And doesn't call us to severe repentance, study the word of God, going out and making disciples of all nations, taking risks and taking challenges.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: That a man could then preach and point up to the mural on the wall and say, That's us, men.
37:34
SPEAKER_01: And have on the other wall a mural of the woman wiping Jesus' feet with her hair.
37:40
SPEAKER_01: One of the most beautiful stories in the Bible that people don't know about.
37:43
SPEAKER_01: When I explain it to people, it's powerful and people don't know it.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: But these are the polars, the polar sides that people need to understand.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: They need to to, men need to be men, women need to be women, and we need to have this.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: And there's a confusion of masculinity and femininity, which is an attack from Satan, because the male and the female created by by God, the purpose of procreation is subdue the earth and to have children through whom the Messiah would come.
38:10
SPEAKER_01: So the one of the theories about the flood is a Nephilim with the offering between the fallen angels and women as a breeding program designed to thwart the arrival of the anti of Christ.
38:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh boy.
38:21
SPEAKER_01: And so thinking ahead, and I'm thinking of Genesis 6.9, says he was Moa was perfect in all his generations.
38:27
SPEAKER_01: And this means he was not corrupted by the antichrist methodology, the breeding program.
38:32
SPEAKER_01: And that's a whole lot of theology get into with Daniel 2.43, a lot of fun stuff.
38:37
SPEAKER_01: And so Satan uses sexuality to confuse and to thwart and to destroy.
38:44
SPEAKER_01: And so when a clear delineation between male and female roles and purpose by God's created order, when it's confused, then we get women, pastors, and elders.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: We get men who are being complacent.
38:56
SPEAKER_01: We get men who aren't doing their jobs.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: We get people who don't know what the truth is in God's Word.
39:00
SPEAKER_01: And then pretty much we after the sexual confusion is because of this is the sexual confusion, the groundwork is laid in order to permit women, pastors, and elders.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: This then often leads to the problem of homosexuality being adopted by churches later.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: It's all interconnected and people don't see it.
39:15
SPEAKER_01: And they think theology isn't worth the effort, but it is.
39:18
SPEAKER_01: And you have to start with the doctrine of the Trinity, and I can go on, and there you go.
39:21
SPEAKER_02: What would you say too?
39:22
SPEAKER_02: Because I've I sent this too, and that's why I was encouraged by you talking about because I feel that like when I go to my church, it's a very masculine church, but the women are also very feminine.
39:34
SPEAKER_02: They're glowing.
39:34
SPEAKER_02: The the kids are there in the church.
39:40
SPEAKER_02: And it's just kind of a rarity to see kids also in church, which I love.
39:45
SPEAKER_02: And we also I think have there's just this strong sense of we have confession every Sunday.
39:50
SPEAKER_02: We kneel and we confess our sins.
39:52
SPEAKER_02: And I enjoy it because there's a that element of to take God seriously, to realize that He is all powerful, He is in who He is.
40:01
SPEAKER_02: But I guess one question I had asked too, because I sense this, and I wonder if you would agree with this.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: No.
40:07
SPEAKER_01: I Oh, sorry.
40:09
SPEAKER_01: Got in there, I got Alex Democratic.
40:10
SPEAKER_02: I just get a sense that men are just terrified of what women think.
40:15
SPEAKER_02: And that's like part of the reason why they're like it's weird, but kind of like what you mentioned too, how they've been castrated because of feminism.
40:24
SPEAKER_02: You need you need they take gentle to the point of like extreme where it's like they don't do any leadership or take any, as you mentioned, step up, quote unquote.
40:34
SPEAKER_02: But do you think that pastors and even Christian men just have this fear of women to really say what needs to be say?
40:42
SPEAKER_02: And obviously, not in a uh a crappy way, but a gentle way, but truthful way.
40:47
SPEAKER_02: Hey, this is what's biblical.
40:48
SPEAKER_02: I know that there's times where I have this conversation with my wife, and I just say it very honestly, but for her own good, and not in the sense of like, hey, I got it better than you, but that's part of my role is to spiritually lead you.
41:00
SPEAKER_02: If I see someone that's influencing your life that I know isn't good for your spiritual well-being, the buzzword like he's controlling.
41:08
SPEAKER_02: And that's not the case.
41:09
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes there's a lot of manipulation of words where then it kind of like you mentioned, because I think sometimes there's this like you can't have it both ways.
41:17
SPEAKER_02: You can't say, guys, step up spiritually, but as long as your wife's okay with how you're leading.
41:22
SPEAKER_01: Because a lot I've heard this a lot online where it's like you sit down as long as she's okay with the way you're doing it.
41:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:29
SPEAKER_01: Then she becomes the standard, the leader in the house.
41:33
SPEAKER_02: Not what's biblical.
41:34
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
41:34
SPEAKER_02: And so I just find that frustrating because, like you said too, like how sometimes women want the leadership, but they don't want the responsibility.
41:40
SPEAKER_02: And I would say the church today for men is saying, but you need to they want them to have, they want them to spiritually lead, but at the same time, you have all the responsibility, but you have no authority.
41:52
SPEAKER_02: So I don't know how to even remedy that in terms of like we need computers, just do a reset.
41:57
SPEAKER_02: Just a reset.
41:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:59
SPEAKER_01: No, we need a revival, and we need here's another thing.
42:03
SPEAKER_01: The pastors need to start preaching the truth for a change.
42:06
SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying every pastor doesn't do it, but there's too much bambi-pambi theology out there and where they're just uh licking their fingers, wick putting up in the doctrinal wind and see which way it's blowing, they follow it.
42:18
SPEAKER_01: Real men need to stand on the truth of God's word and say, if you don't like it, that's not not in a rude way, but if you don't like it, that's between you and God.
42:25
SPEAKER_01: I remember once I preached a sermon at a church where a lot of the people were using the Lord's name in vain, and I decided after many guests preaching events there that I decided to preach a sermon on not to use the Lord's name in vain, because many of them were doing this.
42:38
SPEAKER_01: And I had everybody stand up before I started the sermon.
42:40
SPEAKER_01: I said, I want everybody to stand up, I want you to look, find the exits.
42:43
SPEAKER_01: And just look.
42:44
SPEAKER_01: You all, okay, everybody, you got to sit down.
42:47
SPEAKER_01: You all know where the exits are, right?
42:48
SPEAKER_01: I said, good.
42:48
SPEAKER_01: Feel free to leave while I'm preaching because I'm gonna preach to you the truth.
42:52
SPEAKER_01: And if you don't like it, that's fine.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: I won't be offended.
42:55
SPEAKER_01: But you need to leave if you don't like it.
42:57
SPEAKER_01: Actually, you need to stay if you don't like it.
42:59
SPEAKER_01: But if you want to leave, you can do that.
43:00
SPEAKER_01: And I started preaching about the righteousness of God's holiness and how we are to revere Him, and this is our obligation.
43:07
SPEAKER_01: And people came up to me afterwards and they said, Wow, we haven't heard anything like that before, and we're thankful that you were had the guts to preach it.
43:14
SPEAKER_01: You see, we are to preach to please God, not people.
43:18
SPEAKER_01: And this is a common problem.
43:20
SPEAKER_01: And I'm having a very great difficult time finding a decent church because since my wife passed away, I had to take care of her a lot, and so I didn't go to church much.
43:28
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
43:29
SPEAKER_01: And then now she's gone.
43:30
SPEAKER_01: And so now I'm trying to find a church.
43:32
SPEAKER_01: I've been in numerous churches.
43:33
SPEAKER_01: Moralistic sermons or preaching and teaching are the same as reading a newspaper.
43:39
SPEAKER_01: That's how that's the excitement and that's the depth.
43:41
SPEAKER_01: And most newspapers today don't know what they're doing.
43:44
SPEAKER_01: The articles aren't very good.
43:45
SPEAKER_01: And so I just I'm beside myself being able to find something that is biblically warranted with historical redemptive, Christ centered historical redemptive work where everything is ultimately tied to the work of Christ on the cross.
43:59
SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, it's moral.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: Sermons and people don't even know.
44:02
SPEAKER_01: This, I'm saying this is part of the issue, the women pastors issue, because the women pastors issue is a church issue.
44:07
SPEAKER_01: A church needs to start having men who start preaching and teaching the truth.
44:11
SPEAKER_01: And we need to have one other thing they need to be doing is they need to have football practice, right?
44:17
SPEAKER_01: They have those vertical round pad things that they I don't follow sports, and they hit them.
44:22
SPEAKER_01: We need to have something that's equ equivalent for flying through the air horizontally for at least six feet while you tackle those things.
44:29
SPEAKER_01: And we have those guys on the side of where the pastor's preaching so they can tackle them, get him out of the pulpit when he says something stupid and heretical.
44:37
SPEAKER_01: Get them out.
44:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm joking, but the thing is, and someone made a meme of that happening.
44:42
SPEAKER_01: I heard me say it once was funny.
44:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
44:44
SPEAKER_01: But I'm just saying, so many pastors are not teaching the truth of God's word, they're compromising.
44:48
SPEAKER_01: And me, if I was preaching, I'd say to the women, you're not to be pastors and elders.
44:51
SPEAKER_01: That's what the Bible says.
44:53
SPEAKER_01: And I'll give you the verses right here.
44:54
SPEAKER_01: If you have any disagreement, we can talk about it.
44:56
SPEAKER_01: But I'm going to show you this is what it says.
44:58
SPEAKER_01: And then I'm going to go to 1 Peter 3 and say, Sarah called her husband, Lord.
45:03
SPEAKER_01: Why is it you won't do that?
45:05
SPEAKER_01: And there's a reason I ask that question because there's a lot in that discussion.
45:09
SPEAKER_01: But it's a prompt that I'll sometimes use, like a little prompt in AI, a prompt to see what they're going to say, what they're going to do, so I can do some teaching according to see what their attitude is according to the Word of God.
45:21
SPEAKER_01: Because attitude is the issue.
45:23
SPEAKER_01: We have pride in our hearts.
45:25
SPEAKER_01: I do, you do, we all do.
45:27
SPEAKER_01: And if you're not being guarded and whittled down, your boundaries aren't being whittled down by the word of truth, the word of God, then you'll fill those areas of ignorance with your own preferences.
45:43
SPEAKER_01: And then you'll find that which is in the word of God to make it say what you want.
45:47
SPEAKER_01: Galatians 3.28.
45:48
SPEAKER_01: There's neither male nor female in Christ, we're all one.
45:50
SPEAKER_01: And so that means we can be pastors.
45:52
SPEAKER_01: And they don't have the intellectual understanding, training, spiritual awareness, whatever you want to call it, to be able to understand what this is and stand on the word of truth.
46:00
SPEAKER_01: And the men need to lead the way.
46:02
SPEAKER_01: Adam and Eve sinned, Adam and Eve hid.
46:04
SPEAKER_01: Where are you to the man?
46:06
SPEAKER_01: He asked.
46:07
SPEAKER_01: It's their responsibility first.
46:09
SPEAKER_02: Like when you have, because I have also talked to guys that obviously they don't live up here, but friends I know.
46:16
SPEAKER_02: And it's like you said, there's usually this very soft, very feminine serving, I would probably say actually.
46:22
SPEAKER_02: And it ends up where some of these guys, too, and this is not to excuse their responsibility, but I will tell them if if you have observed that the pastor is not going to hit on these topics, you need to find somewhere else.
46:35
SPEAKER_02: And I think a lot of times we don't realize that there is going to be that moment where you're going to be asked to ask, you have to sacrifice for what your conscience is telling you, especially what is biblical.
46:46
SPEAKER_02: What would you say is some encouragement for guys that are in that situation where they're in a church where obviously it's even worship has become very feminine as well.
46:56
SPEAKER_02: Bethel.
46:57
SPEAKER_02: Bethel music and it's almost like, hey, Jesus is my boyfriend kind of music.
47:01
SPEAKER_01: I call him the blonde-haired, blue-eyed Caucasian surfer dude dressed in a woman's nightgown.
47:05
SPEAKER_01: That's who Jesus is, a lot of people.
47:07
SPEAKER_02: But what would you say to some guys that are struggling in that area where it's like they do want to grow, they do want to find somewhere that's better, but they're just they it's difficult because it seems like a lot of times churches do make it difficult when you have a conscience to want to leave.
47:24
SPEAKER_01: What would you tell them like a first thing to do is pray and get your heart right with God so that the Spirit of God is guiding you through the Word of God, and let that be the anchor, the plum of truth by which you judge all things, including your intentions, your successes, and your failures.
47:41
SPEAKER_01: That needs to be the one number one thing is that the word of God has got to be your anchor.
47:46
SPEAKER_01: And the spirit will illumine your mind and your heart and open your mind and things like that.
47:50
SPEAKER_01: And this is what needs to be done.
47:52
SPEAKER_01: Then, once you're in that place where you're secure in that, then you'll find that you'll have a boldness and a confidence to be able to be able to go speak to a pastor or an elder.
48:04
SPEAKER_01: And the pastor and the elders need to be the kind of men who've from the pulpit made it clear that they're approachable and correctable.
48:12
SPEAKER_01: A lot of pastors don't do that, but at any rate, so then you go to the pastor and you say, Can we have a discussion?
48:17
SPEAKER_01: When I get together, I got questions about the scriptures, about some things, why this, why that.
48:22
SPEAKER_01: And then you do that accordingly.
48:24
SPEAKER_01: And if you find then that they just clearly refuse, like to stop having elder Betty up there preaching the sermon, and they they won't repent from that, then you have a couple of options.
48:37
SPEAKER_01: One is just simply to leave the church.
48:40
SPEAKER_01: And that's between you and God if you're going to do that, leave the church, go find a church.
48:44
SPEAKER_01: And the other one is to let the body of Christ know that you're leaving the church because they're being unbiblical.
48:50
SPEAKER_01: Now, we don't want to cause division and an upset, but in 1 Corinthians 14, 19 or 1119, 1 Corinthians 11.19, I think it just says, there must be divisions among you so the truth can be made known.
49:01
SPEAKER_01: So division is not automatically bad, but we need to divide between truth and error.
49:06
SPEAKER_01: And we're not to be divisive, but we're to make sure that our truth is what divides people.
49:10
SPEAKER_01: Not that we're intending to cause division, but this is what the Bible says.
49:15
SPEAKER_01: And so therefore, Mr.
49:17
SPEAKER_01: Pastor, I need to not submit to your preaching authority because you're not submitting to the teaching authority of the Apostle Paul.
49:26
SPEAKER_01: And what it said, well, that's just your opinion.
49:28
SPEAKER_01: But I'm if it's my opinion, then do you agree I'm under obligation to follow my conscience, which I believe is according to scripture?
49:35
SPEAKER_01: He better say yes at that point, which means then he needs to leave.
49:38
SPEAKER_01: If he says no, just listen to what I'm telling you, then he's vi he's telling people to violate their conscience, which is a sin.
49:44
SPEAKER_01: So this is a serious issue, and I think pastors need to repent.
49:48
SPEAKER_01: I've talked about this on my radio many times over many years.
49:51
SPEAKER_02: Why do you think it just keeps on now?
49:55
SPEAKER_02: Surely there's some churches that are just ickom, it's over in terms of you got the lesbian pastor up there or whatever, quote unquote.
50:04
SPEAKER_02: But do you think that I kind of call it feminism light is kind of like what it is.
50:09
SPEAKER_02: It's like how far can we push the envelope?
50:12
SPEAKER_02: And is there just this idea that we just don't have a good idea of the abilities that women can do?
50:20
SPEAKER_02: Because I don't know, it just always kind of seems like it's we gotta find something for the women to do, otherwise they'll get bored.
50:26
SPEAKER_02: And I'm but is I know some feel like, oh, this you're putting people in a box, but we kind of do the same for men because men are always their role has always been the same to provide, protect spiritual leaders.
50:38
SPEAKER_02: But if today's age, if we say, What about a Titus wife?
50:41
SPEAKER_02: It talks about being a maker of the home.
50:44
SPEAKER_02: It's like this idea you just want women to be like in the home, as if that and the feminism has done this.
50:50
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
50:51
SPEAKER_02: Oh no, that's that bad.
50:52
SPEAKER_02: It's funny though, how it seems like the the role of men has always been the same, where because of feminism, it's just allowed this run amuck, like you can just be anything you want, and who cares if you're the mother or not?
51:03
SPEAKER_02: Do you think that because I don't feel like I can't think of that many good books that teach good biblical womanhood.
51:11
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you know of any that you can think of hand.
51:14
SPEAKER_01: The only book I could think of is in my book, How to Woo and Win Women by Being an Obnoxious Jerk.
51:20
SPEAKER_01: But I don't think they'll take that seriously.
51:22
SPEAKER_01: It's a real book.
51:22
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
51:23
SPEAKER_01: But no, I can talk about male responsibility and female responsibility doctrinally, yeah, as what the scriptures teach.
51:29
SPEAKER_01: And having daughters and a wife who I would confide in and ask questions of.
51:35
SPEAKER_01: And I'd say, hun, look, I'm a guy and I have Asperger's, I'm autistic, so that that's another strike against me.
51:43
SPEAKER_01: And I said, But I need you to tell me when I make a mistake, when I do something that's just uh that a woman might be offended by, not because it's true, but just I'm just being mean, I'm being a jerk or not knowing, whatever.
51:56
SPEAKER_01: Let me know.
51:58
SPEAKER_01: And she would be more than willing to let me know when I was being a jerk and be helpful.
52:03
SPEAKER_01: And she's respectful in it.
52:05
SPEAKER_01: And and I valued it.
52:07
SPEAKER_01: But anyway, back to the the issue is women can do a lot of things in the church.
52:11
SPEAKER_01: One of the things I'll do with I'll test women, I say I'll say, Hey, women, let's say in the church there's a conference going on, or kind of a preaching thing after church, a little bit of a meeting.
52:21
SPEAKER_01: And is it okay for you to be in the kitchen making sandwiches for the guys?
52:25
SPEAKER_01: Now, that's a trigger, right?
52:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
52:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna see what they're gonna say.
52:30
SPEAKER_01: Because if they said, of course not, we're not gonna be that that's degrading.
52:34
SPEAKER_01: Would it be okay for the men to be in the kitchen making the sandwiches?
52:38
SPEAKER_01: That's okay.
52:40
SPEAKER_01: So it's only degrading when you guys do it?
52:42
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
52:43
SPEAKER_01: But it's not degrading when men do it?
52:45
SPEAKER_01: So who brainwashed you to think that both genders doing the exact same task?
52:50
SPEAKER_01: One of them is degrading for one gender, but not for another.
52:53
SPEAKER_01: And I say, you don't realize you're reacting emotionally.
52:56
SPEAKER_01: I talk to women like this when I teach on this topic.
52:59
SPEAKER_01: I say, you're reacting emotionally, not biblically.
53:02
SPEAKER_01: Would you ever call your husband Lord?
53:05
SPEAKER_01: And they always say never.
53:09
SPEAKER_01: And I say, but then why did Peter mention it in relationship to wives in marriage?
53:15
SPEAKER_01: Because I'm I don't tell them why, what's going on?
53:17
SPEAKER_01: There's a reason, but I they don't say then why did they just say no, they dismiss it.
53:24
SPEAKER_02: And this is telling me Have you ever had any ask the question back why would you ask that question?
53:29
SPEAKER_01: No.
53:29
SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
53:30
SPEAKER_01: Nothing I recall.
53:31
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
53:32
SPEAKER_01: And because they're too defensive in the what the common response is because they're not Jesus, they're not Lord.
53:39
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't say that I said Peter's not saying that Sarah was calling Abraham Lord meant that he was Jesus or the Messiah.
53:46
SPEAKER_01: So you're finding, you're very quickly finding reasons not to listen to the word of God.
53:54
SPEAKER_01: What is it that's stopping you from doing that?
53:58
SPEAKER_01: And I try and get them to see that they are as guilty of sin as the men they like to point fingers at.
54:06
SPEAKER_01: Men are certainly guilty, and we men have no problem, generally speaking, saying, Yeah, I blew it.
54:11
SPEAKER_01: Oh man.
54:12
SPEAKER_01: And we guys will sit around and go, Well, that's nothing.
54:15
SPEAKER_01: You want to hear about blowing it?
54:16
SPEAKER_01: Let me tell you what blowing it means.
54:17
SPEAKER_02: Or also be honest, yeah, you're getting fat, dude.
54:20
SPEAKER_02: You need some weight.
54:21
SPEAKER_02: Whereas let's see you're gorgeous.
54:23
SPEAKER_02: Even though it probably might not be the case.
54:26
SPEAKER_01: Since women are emotionally led, generally speaking, they therefore will submit truth to their emotions.
54:32
SPEAKER_01: Lots of times.
54:33
SPEAKER_01: Not always, not every woman's like this.
54:35
SPEAKER_03: Sure.
54:35
SPEAKER_01: But your mom is not like that, okay?
54:37
SPEAKER_01: Oh no.
54:38
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
54:39
SPEAKER_01: And so, but a lot of women are.
54:40
SPEAKER_01: And so this I keep coming back to this.
54:42
SPEAKER_01: People are probably by now going, what does it mean?
54:44
SPEAKER_01: Okay, let me explain something.
54:45
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
54:46
SPEAKER_01: It's talking about marriage.
54:47
SPEAKER_01: He called Abraham Lord.
54:49
SPEAKER_01: Why would she do that?
54:51
SPEAKER_01: Not because he was better than her, it's because he was the one called by God in that position.
54:58
SPEAKER_01: The Lordship was simply a recognition of his federal headship and his position in the family.
55:03
SPEAKER_01: And in this case, Abraham's a little bit more because God talked to him directly.
55:06
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
55:07
SPEAKER_01: And I said she was praised for that.
55:10
SPEAKER_01: And so I say, women, I actually remember this one class I taught on this.
55:14
SPEAKER_01: Women happened to sit on the right side, me facing the people, and the men on the left side just happened to be over this one time.
55:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh, interesting.
55:21
SPEAKER_01: They just gravitated because they had been coming for a while.
55:24
SPEAKER_02: Maybe they're from an Amish church.
55:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe and they've been coming for a while.
55:28
SPEAKER_01: They just kind of gravitated in their friendships and that kind of sense.
55:31
SPEAKER_01: And that's how it worked.
55:32
SPEAKER_01: And so it was really interesting because I would say to the women, I said, Would you ever call your husband's Lord?
55:36
SPEAKER_01: And they would say, No, all of them.
55:37
SPEAKER_01: I said, Why?
55:38
SPEAKER_01: Because he's not worth it.
55:39
SPEAKER_01: He's not this, he's not perfect, he's not Jesus.
55:41
SPEAKER_01: And I said, Okay, would you want them to love you?
55:44
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
55:45
SPEAKER_01: Why?
55:46
SPEAKER_01: Because they're supposed to.
55:48
SPEAKER_01: Wait, you respect your husband?
55:50
SPEAKER_01: Quiet.
55:52
SPEAKER_01: You're supposed to respect him.
55:53
SPEAKER_01: Is respect part of the issue of recognizing his headship and lordship in the house?
55:58
SPEAKER_01: Crickets.
55:59
SPEAKER_01: See, you don't understand really what's going on here.
56:01
SPEAKER_01: It's not an issue of superiority, it's an issue of recognition of a position that the man and the husband is in.
56:07
SPEAKER_01: And by you recognizing it, what you're doing is recognizing what God has ordained.
56:12
SPEAKER_01: But your rebellion against this is a rebellion against God.
56:15
SPEAKER_01: I said, now women, watch this.
56:17
SPEAKER_01: I turn to the men and I say, men, let's say this that they were listening to me talk, and they're convicted by it.
56:24
SPEAKER_01: And you all go to work, they're all at home.
56:26
SPEAKER_01: I'm just saying, I'm over-generalizing.
56:29
SPEAKER_01: And they, your wife comes to you after you get home from work day or whatever, she says, Look, I'm going to start calling you occasionally the word Lord, not as equal to Jesus, but because of the federal headship representation.
56:40
SPEAKER_01: And I'm going to meet it reverently, respectfully, and lovingly and call you that because of your position.
56:46
SPEAKER_01: I said to the men, Would you all like that?
56:48
SPEAKER_01: And every one of them quickly says, No.
56:50
SPEAKER_01: I said, Don't answer why.
56:52
SPEAKER_01: I said, Why do you think that is, ladies?
56:54
SPEAKER_01: And they never get the answer right.
56:55
SPEAKER_01: They never get it right.
56:56
SPEAKER_01: All these different excuses and these things, emotionalism.
56:59
SPEAKER_01: I turned back to the men.
57:00
SPEAKER_01: I say, why?
57:01
SPEAKER_01: Because then we got to live it.
57:02
SPEAKER_01: Because if we're going to live to what we're called to do, we'll rise to the occasion or we'll lower to the occasion.
57:08
SPEAKER_01: With women step in and being held, being elders and pastors, it lowers the water level for the men.
57:13
SPEAKER_01: They're going to float down and just become people who sit in a comfortable pool in their little ducky things.
57:20
SPEAKER_01: They're going to just relax.
57:22
SPEAKER_01: And that's not what we're called to do.
57:23
SPEAKER_02: And women do Because it's easier not to lead.
57:25
SPEAKER_02: It's easier not to lead.
57:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
57:26
SPEAKER_01: And I tell you.
57:27
SPEAKER_02: And that's natural.
57:28
SPEAKER_02: Even when you're at work, like I'll have to find myself sometimes like, I know I can lead.
57:34
SPEAKER_02: No.
57:34
SPEAKER_02: But there's also sometimes where I'm like, I'm glad he gave them that task.
57:37
SPEAKER_02: Cause I know I'd probably screw that up.
57:39
SPEAKER_02: But it's that sense of like realizing that like it's good to have that risk.
57:43
SPEAKER_02: It's good to have that way because that's what also causes men to grow the most.
57:47
SPEAKER_01: And they need to.
57:48
SPEAKER_02: And and to kind of go off of what you said too, like, because I've used this argument too.
57:52
SPEAKER_02: I said to try to show the ladies that it isn't just obviously one way, but I said, could if any man, let's say I was in a guy's Bible study and a guy came up to me and he's like, I'm just gonna done providing for my wife.
58:04
SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna work this week because she nags, she doesn't respect me, she doesn't care for me, she doesn't appreciate me.
58:11
SPEAKER_02: There's no way I'd be like, clearly, she's not respecting you, so you shouldn't have to.
58:15
SPEAKER_02: And I think sometimes like it's to show the ladies, like there's nowhere in scripture where it says, because your spouse is not upholding their biblical role, that means you are then let loose of yours.
58:29
SPEAKER_02: Even if my wife, let's say, which she's not, if she was nagging and disrespectful, I'm still called to love her like Christ.
58:37
SPEAKER_02: And it even talks about non-believers, it talks about wife, even like how they will be one without a word, which I think there's just there's very little that women have to do to just perk a guy up.
58:49
SPEAKER_01: They don't know.
58:50
SPEAKER_01: So now we've gone from women pastors to kind of marriage stuff.
58:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean we can shift a little bit.
58:54
SPEAKER_02: I know we kind of have, yeah.
58:55
SPEAKER_01: Because what you're saying is you're touching the right thing.
58:57
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
58:57
SPEAKER_01: Back in the day when my wife and I first got married, we were married 39 years, we got married but basically before I just before I turned 30, before she turned 27, I think it was 28.
59:08
SPEAKER_01: And uh so we had a lot of baggage from different things we brought in and we had conflict.
59:12
SPEAKER_01: And plus, I was in college and then seminary, it was just a rough time.
59:17
SPEAKER_01: I got to the place, this is no truth.
59:19
SPEAKER_01: And she knows no no truth, no exaggeration.
59:21
SPEAKER_01: It's the truth.
59:22
SPEAKER_01: She knew this.
59:23
SPEAKER_01: We went to a counselor from uh seminary counselor, and I said to him, when she's sitting right there, I'm getting to the short version of this.
59:31
SPEAKER_01: I said, I don't love her anymore, don't want to be married to her anymore, I'm done.
59:34
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
59:35
SPEAKER_01: That's me whining like a little boy, got his head bonked.
59:38
SPEAKER_01: And because things weren't right, and she was difficult in some areas.
59:41
SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying she was perfect.
59:42
SPEAKER_01: It was it takes two to tango.
59:44
SPEAKER_01: But it the point is, I said, I don't, you know, I don't want to do this anymore.
59:48
SPEAKER_01: And I didn't.
59:49
SPEAKER_01: I was tired, I was exhausted, it was everything.
59:51
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, I need a lot of hot wear, hot air let out of me.
59:55
SPEAKER_01: But he said something that just destroyed me and it changed my life.
1:00:03
SPEAKER_01: He said to me, because he knew me personally, he was at my professor at seminary, he said, Matt, do you think Jesus loves you because of how good you are, how patient you are, how kind you are?
1:00:13
SPEAKER_01: And about that time I was like, oh crap, it's over for me.
1:00:18
SPEAKER_01: I got it.
1:00:18
SPEAKER_01: And he went on for a full minute listing this out, and he said, Love is a decision.
1:00:24
SPEAKER_01: You decide to love your wife even when you don't feel like it.
1:00:27
SPEAKER_01: And he went on and explained it, and from that day on, I decided to, and I did, and I grew to very much love her, taking care of her to the point where we are constantly and suffering and moaning and loving her and feeling the privilege of being able to serve her.
1:00:43
SPEAKER_01: When we follow the word of God and the will of God in our male-female relationships, marriages improve, churches improve, and everything improves.
1:00:53
SPEAKER_01: We've got to stop listening to the stupidity of the word, the world, and start listening to the truth of the word and not be convinced and convicted and seduced by the harlotry of the ear ticklers that are out there telling us what feminists are supposed to be, women are supposed to be, and what men can't be.
1:01:12
SPEAKER_01: We need to stop it.
1:01:13
SPEAKER_01: I need to start listening to the word of God, and men need to start acting like biblical men.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_01: And how did Jesus live as a biblical man?
1:01:21
SPEAKER_01: He loved, he taught, he rebuked, he sacrificed, he was patient, he was kind, he was strong, but he did these things lovingly.
1:01:30
SPEAKER_01: And that's what we're supposed to do.
1:01:31
SPEAKER_01: And I tell people in marriage, when I do marriage counseling, you, the man, are supposed to emulate Christ to your wife in love.
1:01:38
SPEAKER_01: And I say to the wife, you're supposed to emulate your respect to Jesus to him, because Jesus has to be the object and the reason for both.
1:01:46
SPEAKER_01: And all of this is ultimately interrelated because male-female relations in pastoring is related to the issue of male-female relations in marriage.
1:01:56
SPEAKER_01: If you're gonna have problems in one, you're generally gonna have problems in the other.
1:02:00
SPEAKER_02: No, those are all great points.
1:02:02
SPEAKER_02: Kind of circling back.
1:02:03
SPEAKER_02: Another one that is also brought up is obviously you have Deborah who was a judge.
1:02:08
SPEAKER_02: Old Testament judge.
1:02:09
SPEAKER_02: And so some people use this as an example.
1:02:12
SPEAKER_02: See, she was a judge, she was a leader.
1:02:14
SPEAKER_02: Why can't that be an example?
1:02:16
SPEAKER_02: If God uses her as a leader, women can also lead churches.
1:02:20
SPEAKER_02: Why not?
1:02:21
SPEAKER_01: I say, was j was was she an elder in a church?
1:02:24
SPEAKER_01: No.
1:02:24
SPEAKER_01: Was she a pastor in a church?
1:02:26
SPEAKER_01: No.
1:02:26
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so it's a different category, different time.
1:02:29
SPEAKER_01: So what you're doing is called a confusing of categories.
1:02:31
SPEAKER_01: A judge is not the same thing as a pastor.
1:02:34
SPEAKER_01: Old Testament, not the same thing as New Testament.
1:02:36
SPEAKER_01: Old Covenant is not the same thing as a new covenant.
1:02:38
SPEAKER_01: So you're mixing categories and drawing unwarranted parallels between them.
1:02:43
SPEAKER_01: Sure, there are some parallels.
1:02:45
SPEAKER_01: She was a woman, and there's women in the New Testament.
1:02:48
SPEAKER_01: There's a parallel.
1:02:49
SPEAKER_01: And she was an authority, but she was an authority because the men weren't doing their jobs, and it was an insult to them and a condemnation on the men because women were not, she was in that position of authority in that system.
1:03:00
SPEAKER_01: In that ecclesiastical, excuse me, not ecclesiastical system.
1:03:03
SPEAKER_01: I want to say a theocratic system.
1:03:05
SPEAKER_01: That she was there, which is a detriment to the men and insult to the men, the same way women pastors today are.
1:03:11
SPEAKER_01: So there's the parallel I would draw that the failure of the men led to Deborah being a judge.
1:03:17
SPEAKER_01: The failure of men today leads to women being pastors.
1:03:21
SPEAKER_01: Draw that.
1:03:22
SPEAKER_01: Don't draw that she was a person in authority, therefore, women not can be an authority, because Paul says they're not to be an authority.
1:03:29
SPEAKER_01: Funny.
1:03:30
SPEAKER_01: They just ignore what Paul clearly states.
1:03:33
SPEAKER_02: And also, I forget the guy's name in the Bible who she seeks to lead the army.
1:03:37
SPEAKER_02: What was his name again?
1:03:38
SPEAKER_02: It starts with a B or something, I think.
1:03:40
SPEAKER_02: Oh God, I can't remember.
1:03:41
SPEAKER_02: I don't remember either.
1:03:42
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't say with an H something, but I know it's a three syllables.
1:03:45
SPEAKER_02: But she still finds a man to lead.
1:03:48
SPEAKER_02: So it's yeah, God the user, but it's also kind of like it's as an exception, but not the norm.
1:03:53
SPEAKER_01: Is like a exception and turn it into the norm.
1:03:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:03:58
SPEAKER_01: And that's not what they're doing.
1:03:59
SPEAKER_01: And I, in fact, I started working on another school on the CARM site.
1:04:02
SPEAKER_01: I'm working on a book in a school simultaneously, but on biblical interpretation.
1:04:06
SPEAKER_01: And I'm going to be going through a lot of different topics, and I'm going to teach the principles and then take topics and say, let's look at these things.
1:04:13
SPEAKER_01: Let's find the exegetical problems and errors so people can learn how to read the Word of God and understand the Word of God.
1:04:21
SPEAKER_01: They don't have a biblical theological foundation.
1:04:23
SPEAKER_01: They don't see how the everything fits together.
1:04:26
SPEAKER_01: I do.
1:04:26
SPEAKER_01: I've been doing this for 46 years and about 25 years ago, boom, I got it.
1:04:31
SPEAKER_01: I see how things fit together theologically.
1:04:33
SPEAKER_01: And people just don't have that.
1:04:35
SPEAKER_01: It takes a while to get that.
1:04:36
SPEAKER_01: And but there aren't people who teach it.
1:04:38
SPEAKER_01: I can teach it.
1:04:39
SPEAKER_01: When people have a robust theological circle where all the points are interrelated and they can see how it works, then they can understand why the Deborah issue is not related to the church issue.
1:04:51
SPEAKER_01: And they're different issues.
1:04:52
SPEAKER_01: And they don't understand logic and category.
1:04:54
SPEAKER_01: I can get it I get what they're doing.
1:04:55
SPEAKER_02: I honestly think every church should honestly have a hermeneutics class too.
1:04:58
SPEAKER_02: It just seems like why would that not be your?
1:05:01
SPEAKER_02: I would say any, oh, you're new believers?
1:05:03
SPEAKER_02: Okay, we're going to get you in a hermeneutics class so you can understand, look at scripture, look at context, look at the whole thing.
1:05:10
SPEAKER_02: Because I tell you, it's amazing how the the same verses always come up to defend certain things that obviously aren't biblical because there's just ignorance of like how to look through scripture.
1:05:22
SPEAKER_02: Another one would be like a number seven that I have here.
1:05:25
SPEAKER_02: Women prophesying in the New Testament church.
1:05:27
SPEAKER_02: The argument would be like in Acts 217 says that the sons and daughters would prophesy, and in 1 Corinthians 11 5 discusses women praying and prophesying.
1:05:36
SPEAKER_02: Therefore, women clearly spoke publicly in church.
1:05:39
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
1:05:40
SPEAKER_02: So then the counterintuitive to be that was like it's like, wait a second, I thought they were supposed to be quiet and not say anything, Matt.
1:05:49
SPEAKER_02: So how does this work then?
1:05:51
SPEAKER_02: How can how can there be speaking in church?
1:05:54
SPEAKER_02: Which a lot of people tend to point to that, this part of the verse and Corinthians is saying, oh, see, it's only talking about prophecy.
1:06:04
SPEAKER_02: It's not talking about actually teaching.
1:06:06
SPEAKER_01: Prophecy is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12, 3 and following in verses, 1 Corinthians 14.
1:06:12
SPEAKER_01: And basically there's a debate on what it is, but it's the generally understood to be the forthelling of the Word of God in an authoritative way that the Spirit has granted unction that convicts and works in a person.
1:06:26
SPEAKER_01: That's not the same thing as being an ecclesiastical church structure.
1:06:30
SPEAKER_01: So can a woman prophesy?
1:06:32
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
1:06:32
SPEAKER_01: If say I'm a pastor again, and we have a not Sundays, but let's say we have Wednesday nights where we're open to the movement of the Spirit.
1:06:40
SPEAKER_01: And a woman stands up and says, I think I have a word from the Lord.
1:06:43
SPEAKER_01: I want to, and then she proclaims something.
1:06:45
SPEAKER_01: I have no problem with that.
1:06:47
SPEAKER_01: I have no problem with that.
1:06:48
SPEAKER_01: Because I'm I believe in the continuation of the gifts.
1:06:50
SPEAKER_01: That's a whole other discussion.
1:06:51
SPEAKER_01: I have no problem with that.
1:06:52
SPEAKER_01: And if she says, I th if she came to me and says, I think I have a prophecy from God, what kind of prophecy?
1:06:58
SPEAKER_01: A prediction of the future?
1:06:59
SPEAKER_01: That's one form of prophecy.
1:07:01
SPEAKER_01: Or is it a proclamation of the word?
1:07:03
SPEAKER_01: No problem.
1:07:04
SPEAKER_01: If she says, I think I know what the Lord wants me to say about something that's for us, okay.
1:07:09
SPEAKER_01: I don't have any problem with that.
1:07:11
SPEAKER_01: I'd say, that's fine, because she's not a pastor, she's not an elder, and she's not an ecclesiastical.
1:07:16
SPEAKER_02: But she's also just sharing something rather than actually like teaching something like, hey, I read this or I had a vision or this dream or whatever.
1:07:24
SPEAKER_01: And what I would do in that case, I'd say tell it to me first.
1:07:31
SPEAKER_01: Which is wise.
1:07:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:07:32
SPEAKER_02: And if I And that would be even not even just for a woman, but a man as well.
1:07:35
SPEAKER_02: Anybody, absolutely.
1:07:36
SPEAKER_02: And actually, you get some very interesting characters that call you on your show, and you're just I've heard some of them, and I'm like, whoa, this is really out in left field here.
1:07:44
SPEAKER_02: I have no idea where you're going with this.
1:07:46
SPEAKER_01: A lot of them do not have alder paws in a litter box.
1:07:50
SPEAKER_01: It's true.
1:07:51
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I wouldn't have any problem with that.
1:07:53
SPEAKER_01: And like I said, and here's the problem that I have with all of this it's a uh an exegetical issue, an application issue.
1:08:00
SPEAKER_01: Very clearly, women are not to be pastors at elders.
1:08:03
SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's not a problem.
1:08:04
SPEAKER_01: Let's go on the other side.
1:08:05
SPEAKER_01: Can they prophesy?
1:08:06
SPEAKER_01: Yes, they can.
1:08:08
SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's define what that is and define what both ends are.
1:08:10
SPEAKER_01: Now let's move towards the middle.
1:08:12
SPEAKER_01: Where's the dividing line or the line you don't cross?
1:08:15
SPEAKER_01: And this can become difficult at that point.
1:08:18
SPEAKER_01: So some might say, Matt, you're inconsistent in some areas.
1:08:21
SPEAKER_01: That might be the case as I'm trying to figure out exactly how it's to work in all situations, because the generic rules are given.
1:08:30
SPEAKER_01: Now we've got to apply them in situations, and they can vary quite a bit.
1:08:33
SPEAKER_01: And so your response can vary quite a bit.
1:08:35
SPEAKER_01: And some people will say you contradict yourself.
1:08:36
SPEAKER_01: Not necessarily, but maybe I did.
1:08:38
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'm not thinking through it clearly enough.
1:08:40
SPEAKER_01: And so that's part of the body's work as well.
1:08:44
SPEAKER_01: Like I said, I have no problem with women teaching, with women prophesying, speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues.
1:08:50
SPEAKER_01: Not a problem.
1:08:50
SPEAKER_01: They're not to be an ecclesiastical authority over men because of the structure and what Adam was done in the created order.
1:08:56
SPEAKER_01: There's an order to be done, which is why in 1 Corinthians 14, go ask your husband at home, because the Corinthian church, generally speaking, the understanding is that the women who gain their rights under Christianity were abusing them and in church, disrupting.
1:09:10
SPEAKER_01: And so they say, What do you say?
1:09:11
SPEAKER_01: What do you say?
1:09:12
SPEAKER_01: Because men sat up front, women sat in back, right or wrong, this is what happened.
1:09:15
SPEAKER_01: And so they would say, Hey, Bob, what do you say?
1:09:16
SPEAKER_01: And then it would disrupt them.
1:09:17
SPEAKER_01: Go ask your husband at home was the admonition.
1:09:20
SPEAKER_01: You're not supposed to do that in church.
1:09:21
SPEAKER_01: And so there's, and we can get into some stuff like that.
1:09:25
SPEAKER_01: But that's what's going on.
1:09:26
SPEAKER_01: Women are not to be pastors and elders.
1:09:27
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, not supposed to be pastors and elders.
1:09:29
SPEAKER_01: But so it doesn't mean they can't be used greatly.
1:09:32
SPEAKER_01: I encourage women to be used.
1:09:33
SPEAKER_01: And the women that we have that worked with our ministry, I encourage them.
1:09:37
SPEAKER_01: I want them to be involved.
1:09:39
SPEAKER_01: And I actually say to them in our Friday meetings, morning meetings, I say, What do you think?
1:09:43
SPEAKER_01: What's this?
1:09:44
SPEAKER_01: They have insights we just don't have.
1:09:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, just like anyone, like the more people that you have, men and women, especially if you have a group of friends, to have an eclectic, you know, thought process on it.
1:09:54
SPEAKER_02: I have another question too, because I thought about this because I wonder sometimes this is where it can get into a kind of gray area sometimes.
1:10:01
SPEAKER_02: Because we know that there's also female influencers like with their own podcasts and some have their own YouTube channels and stuff like that.
1:10:11
SPEAKER_02: And do you think that sometimes, and I know I'm trudging on here because this gets people interested in it.
1:10:16
SPEAKER_02: It's not in a church, so who cares?
1:10:18
SPEAKER_02: But do you think that sometimes ladies will go that route because it's I can't be a preacher, but they act like a preacher, how they do their podcasts or their YouTube channels where there will be specific things like it's not like, hey, we're gonna sit and we're gonna talk about how to be a godly woman, but they will address issues that have to do specifically towards men, and it is clear that they are preaching scripture at men for their shortcomings or what they're doing wrong.
1:10:48
SPEAKER_02: Do you think that sometimes we give a pass to that because we're like, she's not in a church and she's not in a pulpit, and she's not have the title a pastor, but she is acting almost vicariously in that manner.
1:11:00
SPEAKER_02: Do you think that is a gray issue, or do you think that it just it's a case by case in terms of like how the show operates?
1:11:08
SPEAKER_02: What are your thoughts on that?
1:11:09
SPEAKER_01: It is a gray area, and it is also case by case, because one woman could do the exact same thing as another and say a few things different, which can change the tone of everything.
1:11:19
SPEAKER_01: She could say, I'm claiming to be an apostle and I'm teaching authoritatively.
1:11:23
SPEAKER_01: That one sentence.
1:11:24
SPEAKER_01: What?
1:11:24
SPEAKER_01: Now we have a different problem.
1:11:26
SPEAKER_01: That case by case, get rid of her.
1:11:28
SPEAKER_01: She's wrong.
1:11:28
SPEAKER_01: But if another woman who says, I'm not trying to take any position away from men in the church, but the church I go to and the ones around here, they don't allow any opportunity for me to be able to talk to them about this.
1:11:40
SPEAKER_01: So I'm coming here.
1:11:41
SPEAKER_01: I get it.
1:11:42
SPEAKER_01: And then case by case, what's being said.
1:11:45
SPEAKER_01: I always people are surprised when I teach this.
1:11:48
SPEAKER_01: I encourage women to teach.
1:11:50
SPEAKER_01: I encourage them to prophesy, to speak in tongues.
1:11:52
SPEAKER_01: The Bible says in 1 Corinthians 14:1, pursue the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.
1:11:57
SPEAKER_01: And it's to the Christian church.
1:11:58
SPEAKER_01: That's what the Bible says, so that's what I have to encourage people to do, and we should.
1:12:02
SPEAKER_01: But they're not to be pastors and elders in the church because they're not supposed to be.
1:12:07
SPEAKER_01: They're not to be an ecclesiastical structural authority over men in the church.
1:12:10
SPEAKER_01: That is something that God has designated specifically, and we're to obey that.
1:12:15
SPEAKER_01: Now, how that works out in the real world, it's going to get messy, and inconsistencies are going to occur.
1:12:20
SPEAKER_01: But that's okay.
1:12:21
SPEAKER_01: When children are growing up in the home, things are messy because there's life, there's not always perfect order, but that's okay.
1:12:29
SPEAKER_01: We have to deal and learn, and through our mistakes and making messes, we learn what the truth really is.
1:12:35
SPEAKER_01: And God is gracious and he works with us.
1:12:37
SPEAKER_01: And so I encourage women, I do, I encourage women to do more.
1:12:40
SPEAKER_01: I go on my my wife, I want her to get on radio and do stuff.
1:12:44
SPEAKER_01: She wouldn't do it because she's so embarrassed about public speaking.
1:12:47
SPEAKER_01: She had a she did it once.
1:12:49
SPEAKER_01: She got tricked by one of her daughters to into a bet she lost.
1:12:52
SPEAKER_01: She had to come on the radio.
1:12:53
SPEAKER_01: And people were saying how great she was.
1:12:56
SPEAKER_01: She has a very good radio, had a she's passed away, very good radio voice, and her wisdom was just, I was like, wow, you need to be on here more often.
1:13:04
SPEAKER_02: She was no, I can't do it.
1:13:05
SPEAKER_02: Do you think because here's two other things I just thought of too?
1:13:08
SPEAKER_02: Because some people try to do this bait and switch thing.
1:13:12
SPEAKER_02: So you'll have it where they'll have it where it's uh like a co-ed pastoral role.
1:13:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's stupid.
1:13:18
SPEAKER_02: They'll have I know you'd say that, but I know you'll go deeper in this.
1:13:23
SPEAKER_02: And usually this is how I I usually hear it spun.
1:13:26
SPEAKER_02: It's usually the idea of like we are both in ministry, quote unquote, and we are both called pastor, but the reason why we can do that is because I, as the husband, and allowing her under my authority to be able to teach and be a pastor.
1:13:44
SPEAKER_02: What would you say to that?
1:13:45
SPEAKER_01: Is she in authority?
1:13:47
SPEAKER_01: Any kind of an authority over men in the church?
1:13:49
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:13:49
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:13:50
SPEAKER_01: Next, we're done.
1:13:52
SPEAKER_02: But no, but Matt, she's under her husband's authority.
1:13:55
SPEAKER_01: That's so so she is she in authority over any men in the church?
1:13:59
SPEAKER_01: That's the question.
1:14:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:14:01
SPEAKER_01: Not if she's under authority of somebody else, is she in authority over others?
1:14:04
SPEAKER_01: By see, when you get into the preaching of the word of God up in the pulpit, you're speaking the word of God authoritatively to the people of God.
1:14:11
SPEAKER_01: That by definition is a place of authority and the exercise of authority.
1:14:16
SPEAKER_01: If she's doing that under his authority, then she's in that position of authority and she's wrong.
1:14:21
SPEAKER_01: That's why I say it's stupid, because people don't know how to think.
1:14:25
SPEAKER_01: They can't think critically, and they can't think logically.
1:14:27
SPEAKER_01: And this is something I have to work with to teach people logic a lot of times, basic rules of logic, basic thinking categories, don't blend meanings, don't blurrify.
1:14:36
SPEAKER_01: I call it blurrification, reading out of the book of second colostomy, all these stupid things that they'll do.
1:14:42
SPEAKER_01: I don't call them stupid, but I'm just saying, you know, already I'm just letting it out.
1:14:45
SPEAKER_01: But it's just ridiculous.
1:14:46
SPEAKER_01: And they don't think these things through.
1:14:48
SPEAKER_01: Are you still, are you an authority over men of the church?
1:14:51
SPEAKER_01: Yes, then you're violating scripture.
1:14:54
SPEAKER_01: What's next?
1:14:54
SPEAKER_01: There's something about logic.
1:14:56
SPEAKER_01: It's called a true dichotomy.
1:14:58
SPEAKER_01: It's like, for example, you can't, guys can't see this.
1:15:00
SPEAKER_01: Maybe you can, I don't know.
1:15:01
SPEAKER_01: In my right hand, I'm holding a glass of water.
1:15:03
SPEAKER_01: That's the case right now.
1:15:05
SPEAKER_01: It is the case that I'm holding the glass of water, or it is not the case that I'm holding the glass of water.
1:15:10
SPEAKER_01: In my I can say my right hand at both times.
1:15:13
SPEAKER_01: And this is a negation in that one can only be true, not both.
1:15:18
SPEAKER_01: So one negates the possibility of the other.
1:15:20
SPEAKER_01: So it's either the case that I'm holding a glass of water in my right hand, or it's not the case that I'm holding a glass of water in my right hand.
1:15:26
SPEAKER_01: Which is it?
1:15:27
SPEAKER_01: It is the case that I'm holding a glass of water in my right hand.
1:15:30
SPEAKER_01: This means the other one is not true.
1:15:32
SPEAKER_01: The truth value is it's not the case, would be true if I was not holding it, but it's falsified.
1:15:38
SPEAKER_01: So this is what's called a true dichotomy.
1:15:40
SPEAKER_01: So I'll teach this.
1:15:41
SPEAKER_01: It's either the case that two plus two is four, or it's not the case that two plus two is four.
1:15:46
SPEAKER_01: Only one of those can be valid.
1:15:48
SPEAKER_01: So what I'll do it's called a dichotomy, a true dichotomy.
1:15:50
SPEAKER_01: So what I'll do, now I just put the glass down.
1:15:53
SPEAKER_01: So now what I'll do is I'll say, it is either the case that she's in authority over men, or it's not the case that she's in authority over men.
1:16:00
unknown: Okay.
1:16:01
SPEAKER_01: Which is it?
1:16:02
SPEAKER_01: Both cannot be true.
1:16:04
SPEAKER_01: And if they say she's not in authority, I'm going to take them to scripture and say exactly who you are.
1:16:09
SPEAKER_01: Yes, it is.
1:16:09
unknown: Okay.
1:16:10
SPEAKER_02: And in a way, it's almost like a half-true, because it's like saying, okay, yeah, that's good that you're under your husband's authority as headship.
1:16:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:16:17
SPEAKER_02: But you're also diverting another part of scripture by still practicing something that is unbiblical still.
1:16:24
SPEAKER_01: And then what they should really should do is get their daughter, who's 12, who's under the authority of the mother and the father, and she can preach.
1:16:32
SPEAKER_01: Because she's under the authority.
1:16:34
SPEAKER_01: So I guess it's okay.
1:16:35
SPEAKER_01: And then the seven-year-old little boy, he can get up and preach.
1:16:38
SPEAKER_01: He knows English well enough because he's under their authority, so he can do that too.
1:16:42
SPEAKER_01: It's called argumentum ad absurdum.
1:16:49
SPEAKER_01: I actually say this to people they hear she hear millions of prayers simultaneously spoken and thought, yes, if God wants her to, can God make her big enough to eat the planet Jupiter?
1:16:57
SPEAKER_01: I actually say this.
1:16:58
SPEAKER_01: Yes, she can.
1:17:01
SPEAKER_01: It's called the absurdity, taking the conclusion on the way down what it means, and it gets to the place where it's ridiculous, but yet it's on the principle of truth that they're trying to establish, which means they're not understanding the real issue to begin with.
1:17:14
SPEAKER_02: No, that's good.
1:17:15
SPEAKER_02: I guess to add to that would be another question.
1:17:18
SPEAKER_02: If there is, let's say, a a youth group, and let's say they would allow because they would obviously have a lesson time in youth group, and let's say they allowed a student to give a lesson to their peers.
1:17:33
SPEAKER_01: Now we're getting to a real gray area.
1:17:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:17:35
SPEAKER_02: So I think I called your show actually with this question, actually.
1:17:38
SPEAKER_02: Let's say both ways, to be fair.
1:17:40
SPEAKER_02: Let's say there's a young man, let's say he's spiritually mature for his age, per se, and he's gonna give the lesson talk to his peers and youth group.
1:17:48
SPEAKER_01: There'd be no violation there.
1:17:50
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
1:17:52
SPEAKER_02: Now, if there was a woman, and I say woman because I think they're young women at that time.
1:17:58
SPEAKER_02: I don't know what age we was saying.
1:17:59
SPEAKER_01: I say she's 16.
1:18:00
SPEAKER_02: Okay, she's a 16.
1:18:02
SPEAKER_02: And she's gonna give the lesson to her peers.
1:18:05
SPEAKER_02: Is that a problem?
1:18:07
SPEAKER_01: Now we have other issues here, and this becomes subjective in some areas because it says the woman ought to have authority over men in the church.
1:18:15
SPEAKER_01: Are they men?
1:18:17
SPEAKER_01: At sixteen years old, I wouldn't call them men.
1:18:21
SPEAKER_01: But 2,000 years ago, a 16-year-old was a man.
1:18:26
SPEAKER_01: So now we have the subjectivity of culture, and so this becomes a very gray area.
1:18:32
SPEAKER_01: Generally speaking, we understand 16-year-olds not to be full men.
1:18:36
SPEAKER_01: We might call them a young man, or I might say, hey man, what's going on?
1:18:40
SPEAKER_01: We're trying to encourage them in their masculinity and growth.
1:18:42
SPEAKER_01: So when we get into the more precise issues biblically, there's nothing that defines a man as a certain age.
1:18:50
SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
1:18:51
SPEAKER_01: So now we have even more problems.
1:18:53
SPEAKER_01: So we got to be careful not to step too close to the edge of heresy to see how close we can get to it so that we're waving our arms, trying to keep our balance and not falling into the abyss of false doctrines.
1:19:04
SPEAKER_01: We're trying to get as close as we can.
1:19:06
SPEAKER_01: So I'd say don't use these kinds of ambivalent and difficult questions to say, how close can we get and push it?
1:19:14
SPEAKER_01: I would say use your wisdom to not use a gray area to get close to violating scripture where the next step would be a violation.
1:19:25
SPEAKER_01: So I'd say, if it was a situation, say it was in my church, say I was a pastor, and someone came to me and said, we have a youth group coming in from another church, and they're gonna express what their mission work was.
1:19:37
SPEAKER_01: They went to Mexico, let's just say they built a home for someone, whatever.
1:19:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:19:41
SPEAKER_01: And the parents went down too, so they're all supervised, it was a good thing, and we're gonna have five of them from that church coming over to our youth group, and they're gonna share.
1:19:52
SPEAKER_01: No problem.
1:19:54
SPEAKER_01: What if one of them gets up and says, just like it says in John 3.16, we're doing that, we're loving the world.
1:20:00
SPEAKER_01: That's fair.
1:20:01
SPEAKER_01: And you can't say it's a teaching authority, but it's fair because it's true exposition in that context.
1:20:08
SPEAKER_01: I'd say that's not a problem.
1:20:10
SPEAKER_01: Now, if let's just say one of the girls gets up, let's say, from either group and says, I need to now preach to you a lesson.
1:20:17
SPEAKER_01: Now we're gonna step a little beyond.
1:20:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna preach to you a lesson out of the word of God that's a sermon, give a sermon to you.
1:20:22
SPEAKER_01: Now I know it's wrong.
1:20:24
SPEAKER_01: So now, okay, now let's step towards center again.
1:20:26
SPEAKER_01: You go back and forth like this, you try and find a good place to draw, and then you say, now let's step one take one step back from that towards safety, so we don't encourage people to learn how to get close to heresy as much as possible.
1:20:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because I I think one thing that I thought of too is that because there is such a heavily influence, and we know, especially on young women these days, that it would also kind of give a hint to her is I taught youth group, so why can't I be a female pastor?
1:21:03
SPEAKER_02: Do you think that's another possibility?
1:21:04
SPEAKER_02: I mean not to just say every woman goes that direction automatically.
1:21:09
SPEAKER_02: I think it's influenced, but I could see someone also going back to that stage like, wait, I did this, so like what's the problem?
1:21:16
SPEAKER_01: One of the things about uh qualifications of a pastor is be able to be of good repute, not quick to anger, not in addicted to much wine, be able to refute error, teach sound doctrine, et cetera.
1:21:27
SPEAKER_01: These are requirements.
1:21:29
SPEAKER_01: So I happen to know a little bit about doctrine.
1:21:34
SPEAKER_01: And so I could take such a person who says, I want I was a youth person in charge, a female says this, and now I want to be called a youth pastor.
1:21:44
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so a pastor is supposed to know these things, right?
1:21:47
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so what's a hypostatic union?
1:21:49
SPEAKER_01: What's the communication of the properties?
1:21:50
SPEAKER_01: What's justification imputation?
1:21:52
SPEAKER_01: What's a propitiatory sacrifice?
1:21:54
SPEAKER_01: These are soteriological issues.
1:21:56
SPEAKER_01: What is the nature of the incarnation?
1:21:59
SPEAKER_01: What's a trinity?
1:22:00
SPEAKER_01: These are the basics of the Christian faith.
1:22:02
SPEAKER_01: And say, do you know these things?
1:22:04
SPEAKER_01: Few people know them, few pastors, not all pastors know, but most of them do.
1:22:08
SPEAKER_01: And say, well, then right away, here's something interesting.
1:22:11
SPEAKER_01: Without saying because she's a woman, I could say you want to be a pastor, but you don't even know enough the qualifications of what that is, which tells me you haven't even studied what that means to begin with, which means you're not submitting yourself to the word of God in the first place.
1:22:25
SPEAKER_01: And you want to be a pastor at several levels.
1:22:28
SPEAKER_01: So say, as it works, I say, now that means you have to study what the word of God says about these things and know them.
1:22:34
SPEAKER_01: And while you're doing that, you need to study the Trinity, the created order, primogeniture, federal headship, and why Paul cites this, and then you'll have your answer.
1:22:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that would I'm sure that would go over smoothly, right?
1:22:48
SPEAKER_01: Or I could say, just trust me, I'm Reverend Slick, just believe me.
1:22:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:22:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it also goes over really well.
1:22:54
SPEAKER_02: For sure.
1:22:55
SPEAKER_02: I guess two last questions to ask is what are some things that I we because I think you we've done a fair job, you'd say, probably hitting on men's responsibilities, pastors' responsibilities.
1:23:08
SPEAKER_02: Let's go to the ladies now.
1:23:10
SPEAKER_02: Because there's some ladies that I'm sure that they're probably in a gray issue, or maybe they have already dabbled in this to some degree.
1:23:18
SPEAKER_02: What would be your thoughts and advice in terms of women that are either confused on this area or just ignorant on this area, or maybe in rebellion?
1:23:27
SPEAKER_02: I would say all three of those.
1:23:29
SPEAKER_02: Because women are usually in and just like men in those three stages.
1:23:32
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes you're just ignorant of some things, sometimes you're in rebellion of some things, and sometimes you might be confused on something.
1:23:38
SPEAKER_02: So what would be your thoughts on that?
1:23:39
SPEAKER_02: Like some things on those three.
1:23:41
SPEAKER_01: That they could do.
1:23:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sure.
1:23:43
SPEAKER_01: What I tell women is you can do anything in the church except be a pastor, elder, bishop, or deacon, because deacon also is a requirement of husband and one wife.
1:23:53
SPEAKER_01: I'll say anything.
1:23:54
SPEAKER_01: You can be security, you can take out the trash, you can clean the kitchen, you can vacuum, you can move chairs, just like the men do.
1:24:02
SPEAKER_01: Just like the men do in these things.
1:24:04
SPEAKER_01: You want to be security, you want to carry a weapon while you're going out and going door to door and doing a check while you're on the radio?
1:24:10
SPEAKER_01: You can do that.
1:24:11
SPEAKER_01: You and I used to go into when I was going to Calvary Chapel, even as a reformed guy, I go to Calvary Chapel, I would jump in with my wife and watch the kids.
1:24:21
SPEAKER_01: She would do that because she liked that.
1:24:23
SPEAKER_01: She liked helping the kids.
1:24:25
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:24:25
SPEAKER_01: They can't be pastors and elders and things like that.
1:24:27
SPEAKER_01: That's all.
1:24:28
SPEAKER_01: So whatever men take out the trash, the men would be the ones who would usually take out all the chairs because we were renting an area, and they had to take a chairs down after every service.
1:24:37
SPEAKER_01: The women would help.
1:24:38
SPEAKER_01: Praise God.
1:24:39
SPEAKER_01: They can do anything except these things.
1:24:42
SPEAKER_01: So what's the problem?
1:24:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:24:44
SPEAKER_02: I think it's just the idea.
1:24:46
SPEAKER_02: I think sometimes ladies think that their worth has to be in a title.
1:24:51
SPEAKER_01: No.
1:24:52
SPEAKER_01: Their worth is in Christ, not a position.
1:24:55
SPEAKER_01: Because if it's in a title, that's pride.
1:24:58
SPEAKER_01: That is pride.
1:25:00
SPEAKER_01: Their worth is in Christ and who they are in Christ and what Christ has got.
1:25:04
SPEAKER_01: One of the things, I'll be 70 pretty soon.
1:25:07
SPEAKER_01: And having done apologetics for 46 years, having been a Christian for over 57 or something like that years.
1:25:13
SPEAKER_01: Whatever.
1:25:14
SPEAKER_01: You know what the thing I'm praying more and more is?
1:25:17
SPEAKER_01: Lord, not my will, but your will be done.
1:25:19
SPEAKER_01: Not my glory, but your glory.
1:25:21
SPEAKER_01: Lord, I don't even want to pray anymore because I might pray wrong.
1:25:25
SPEAKER_01: Teach me what to pray, that I can be used for your glory, whether it's here or there, married, single, healthy, sick, rich, poor, on radio, not on radio, helping, not helping.
1:25:36
SPEAKER_01: I don't care.
1:25:37
SPEAKER_01: What do you want?
1:25:39
SPEAKER_01: It matters not what I desire, but what you desire.
1:25:42
SPEAKER_01: And as I get older, I realize more and more that's what I want.
1:25:47
SPEAKER_01: I wish God would come down to part the heavens.
1:25:49
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'm glad you've been asking.
1:25:51
SPEAKER_01: Here's what I want you to do.
1:25:52
SPEAKER_01: I want you to move to Sandy, Utah, and I want you to start a janitorial business.
1:25:57
SPEAKER_01: Okay, great.
1:25:58
SPEAKER_01: No problem.
1:25:59
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:26:00
SPEAKER_01: But he doesn't do that.
1:26:02
SPEAKER_01: At least not for me, he hasn't.
1:26:04
SPEAKER_01: So the thing is, when people say it's not an authoritative position, not something that glorifies, not good.
1:26:10
SPEAKER_01: Have you asked God about this?
1:26:12
SPEAKER_01: And what's your motivation?
1:26:15
SPEAKER_02: No, I think that's good.
1:26:16
SPEAKER_02: One thing that I've have to remind myself of too is that I think as in anything, it doesn't even have to be biblical things.
1:26:24
SPEAKER_02: We don't want to be wrong.
1:26:26
SPEAKER_02: No one wants to be wrong.
1:26:28
SPEAKER_02: But I've learned that, like in being wrong, when those moments where you're given evidence where, hey, you haven't looked at this correctly or this isn't right.
1:26:37
SPEAKER_02: I've realized it is always brought me closer to understanding God more.
1:26:42
SPEAKER_02: And also it's a sense of humility, but also a sense of not just being wrong, but in finding out that you're being wrong, you're also giving yourself the ability to become more right.
1:26:52
SPEAKER_02: And I think we always look at it's and again, it does come back to pride, but I think we don't realize what is the main goal here.
1:26:59
SPEAKER_02: And that's just lost a lot of times with like looking through the forest through the trees.
1:27:03
SPEAKER_02: And it's it's okay to be wrong.
1:27:05
SPEAKER_02: And I'm sure there's been tons of conversations where you've had with people where someone brings something up, like, oh, I didn't think about that.
1:27:11
SPEAKER_02: No.
1:27:11
SPEAKER_02: And just having that it's not happening.
1:27:14
SPEAKER_02: But like having that humility though to realize that like it's not a bad thing, even when we're confronted with our sin, it's another opportunity.
1:27:23
SPEAKER_02: Like what I appreciate about my church with not only just confession, but they tell it's it's a beautiful thing to repent, it's a beautiful thing to realize you're in sin.
1:27:33
SPEAKER_02: And we want to walk you through it.
1:27:35
SPEAKER_02: We want to shepherd you because we're all on the same trajectory.
1:27:40
SPEAKER_02: And like in doing so, and for the men and that have permitted and women that have dabbled in this, there is forgiveness, there is mercy.
1:27:50
SPEAKER_02: And just put yourself aside and ask it, as you said very clearly.
1:27:55
SPEAKER_02: It's very hard for us to ask.
1:27:57
SPEAKER_02: It's always my will.
1:27:58
SPEAKER_02: My will.
1:27:59
SPEAKER_02: It's what I want, it's what I feel, it's what I like, it's what I want to do.
1:28:03
SPEAKER_02: And it all comes down to it's not about you, it's not about Matt, it's not about Jamie.
1:28:10
SPEAKER_01: I don't like that.
1:28:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:28:11
SPEAKER_01: No, I want it to be about me because I'm an egotistical jerk.
1:28:14
SPEAKER_01: Like that God loves anyway.
1:28:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:28:18
SPEAKER_02: No, for sure.
1:28:18
SPEAKER_02: And I'm just like you, I'm just praying for unity, especially with marriages.
1:28:22
SPEAKER_02: Marriages are so under attack right now.
1:28:24
SPEAKER_02: And as and I think, you know, as I've talked on the show many times about the dangers of feminism and what it's doing, not only just to women, but men as to men.
1:28:33
SPEAKER_01: And society's destroying society.
1:28:35
SPEAKER_01: In fact, one of the ramifications, deleterious ramifications, is that fewer and fewer people are getting married now, and men are men are moving away from it all.
1:28:44
SPEAKER_01: This is gonna be a serious problem with the country.
1:28:46
SPEAKER_01: But yeah.
1:28:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:28:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there was a uh two podcasts ago.
1:28:49
SPEAKER_02: I did a two series on that, and it was talking about that.
1:28:53
SPEAKER_02: It talked about how 63% of young men from 18 to 29 are not even looking for a relationship or interested.
1:29:00
SPEAKER_02: And it actually already hit earlier than expected.
1:29:04
SPEAKER_02: The first initial study was it was gonna be 2030, that 45% of all women from I think 25 to 40 would be not married and without kids.
1:29:16
SPEAKER_02: And so it's not even just a population thing, but there's become this huge divide of values that have shifted and gap, and it's a good episode.
1:29:25
SPEAKER_02: You should check it out.
1:29:26
SPEAKER_02: I follow it.
1:29:27
SPEAKER_01: I actually follow these things and watch them.
1:29:28
SPEAKER_01: Have you ever seen the movie or the documentary Red Pill?
1:29:31
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah, I've seen it.
1:29:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's very good.
1:29:33
SPEAKER_01: Very good, very informative.
1:29:35
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, there's a problem going on, and uh there's gonna be a pendulum swing back and what trad wives are.
1:29:41
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:29:41
SPEAKER_01: Those trad wives are coming back, and more and more than that.
1:29:44
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we'll see.
1:29:45
SPEAKER_01: God's gonna do what is good, and we'll see.
1:29:48
SPEAKER_02: Just gotta get back to the Bible.
1:29:50
SPEAKER_02: It's such such a short time.
1:29:53
SPEAKER_02: Just and yeah, I wish we had a little more time to get it right, which we probably won't.
1:29:57
SPEAKER_02: But thank God we have eternity as well to look forward to.
1:30:01
SPEAKER_02: Matt, as always, thank you so much for your time.
1:30:04
SPEAKER_02: I appreciate you coming on.
1:30:06
SPEAKER_02: For everyone that was listening, we hope this has been encouraging for you.
1:30:10
SPEAKER_02: And we hope that this has been hopefully enlightening.
1:30:13
SPEAKER_02: And if you're convicted, praise God, because conviction is good because we want you to be biblically sound.
1:30:18
SPEAKER_02: And you can also read Matt at commercial.org.
1:30:21
SPEAKER_02: He has tons of articles you can read on these various subjects.
1:30:25
SPEAKER_02: And as always, I'm Jim McKeever, your host, and thank you, Matt, for being up.
1:30:30
SPEAKER_02: You're welcome.
1:30:31
SPEAKER_02: And again, as I've always said, keep fighting the enemy and don't ever back down.