Latest / FUTURE OF XYZ / Future of Floor Coverings | Ana Cunningham & Ali McMurter | S7 E17
Transcript
- 00:00:04:00 - 00:00:25:04 Speaker 1 Hello and welcome to this week's episode of future of XYZ. today we're speaking with Ana Cunningham and Ali McMurter. They are the co-founders and managing partners of the Toronto based and now expanded recently to Brussels, Belgium based, Creative Matters. Ana and Ali, thank you so much for joining us. 00:00:25:06 - 00:00:32:04 Speaker 2 Thank you. And we're excited to be here. just clarification. We're actually not founders, but, we are owners. 00:00:32:08 - 00:00:38:23 Speaker 1 Co-owner. Sorry, did I say co-founder? Sorry. Co-owner and managing partners. 00:00:39:00 - 00:00:41:24 Speaker 2 yeah, it goes back farther than we do. So. 00:00:42:01 - 00:00:51:23 Speaker 1 Well, it's true, because, Ali, I think you, you joined in 2006 and Anna and 1999. So you you as designers, both of you, if I'm not mistaken. 00:00:52:00 - 00:00:52:17 Speaker 3 Correct. 00:00:52:19 - 00:01:19:12 Speaker 1 And and what you design are the topic of today's conversation, which is floor coverings. and I think it's a very, in some ways a very broad and in many ways a very niche topic for future of Xyzzy. but I'm really fascinated with the intersection of what has been happening in creative matters since 1988 and your founding in terms of like managing both creativity and design, but also innovation and sustainability. 00:01:19:14 - 00:01:24:20 Speaker 1 so, dive it, dive in on that. And you guys are both in Toronto, I believe. 00:01:24:22 - 00:01:28:06 Speaker 2 Yes we are. Yep. Yes. 00:01:28:08 - 00:01:31:18 Speaker 1 and Canadian educated as well. 00:01:31:20 - 00:01:43:10 Speaker 2 Yes. Yeah. I guess well, we have a bit of immersion into us because you're our neighbor. Of course. So, Yeah, but that's our strongest influences. 00:01:43:12 - 00:02:02:21 Speaker 1 I'm sure. I mean, and in the commercial world, it's an influence everywhere. so it's it's interesting to me, what you all are doing. And I guess we should start with the very definition of floor coverings in the context of your expertise in today's conversation. how do we define it? 00:02:02:23 - 00:02:31:08 Speaker 3 So we define floor coverings, made made mostly into two categories. We look at floor coverings as either area rugs or broad loom. So, what Creative Matters has, has been developing for for many, many years is, you know, you know, telling a story with a rug or a, a floor covering, whether it be for a residential project or, a high end hospitality project. 00:02:31:10 - 00:02:54:23 Speaker 3 we work with, many different interior designers and architects worldwide. And that's our favorite part is, is how do we tell a story? How do we fit into the, the narrative that the interior designer is creating for that particular space? And I think if that really I think that is essentially what defines creative matters, it's the creativity behind that storytelling for those particular spaces. 00:02:55:00 - 00:03:37:18 Speaker 1 And, and you mentioned broad loom we're talking carpets when we're talking broad loom. Yeah, which is very different than rugs, obviously. So we'll be talking about those two things that, in the context of today, I'm curious because, as I was researching, you know, your history as a, as a company, you had provided early on all of the carpeting for the Gucci boutiques worldwide for like ten years. But subsequently, obviously, I mean, as you just mentioned, there are major hospitality projects, hotels, again, luxury boutique retailers, cruise ships, diplomatic missions around the world, you know, stylish offices, you know, fancy elegant homes. 00:03:37:18 - 00:03:50:12 Speaker 1 I mean, you're really covering the gamut. but I'm curious, you know, what are the common elements of this textile design in the context of all these kind of, let's call it cross utilitarian uses? 00:03:50:14 - 00:04:13:03 Speaker 2 I think just, just basically it's a, floor covering, like you're saying, whether it's an area rug or wall to wall. we're dealing with fibers and a backing of some sort or something to hold them all together. And, probably the most common thread amongst all of it is actually wool, because that's, that's kind of the primary fiber that we work with. 00:04:13:03 - 00:04:35:21 Speaker 2 And, and just it's there for, like insulating temperature wise and sound wise, just kind of inviting you into a space in a special way, and helping to define spaces. I don't know how, I mean, yeah, it's a very it's a very broad topic when you think about it. 00:04:35:23 - 00:05:05:08 Speaker 1 Well, it's interesting because I think, you know, as, as I mean, we're just thinking about like, what are the differences then? And it's like, you know, working with some of these big, as you know, architects and interior architects, biggest names in retail, hospitality, etc., like how do you balance between kind of what the customer demand is, what the installation/production, you know, budgetary constraints are and manage that and the creativity and innovation as well as obviously your strong values. 00:05:05:08 - 00:05:08:15 Speaker 1 Like what how do you kind of juggle those things? 00:05:08:17 - 00:05:40:04 Speaker 3 Well, yes. I'll jump into that one. basically, you know, we're proud to say that we have a lot of return clients at Creative Matters. We've been working with a lot of these clients for many years. And, you know, we worked with a lot of these big interior design firms. And what has been quite lovely for creative matters is that as those interior designers have grown and left and started their own, design businesses, we have been able to continue the relationship with them as well and grow alongside them. 00:05:40:06 - 00:06:08:24 Speaker 3 And, you know, I think what brings people back to creative matters is the level of service that we provide. And and it is there is an educational component to what we do. So, you know, it all starts off with a brief where, you know, this happens with all of our clients, where we talk about the, the overall success of what we sort of imagine as the success of a project and starting off with the basics, you know, what are the fabrics and finishes going into the space? 00:06:09:01 - 00:06:34:20 Speaker 3 What are the, significant, things that we have to take into consideration as far as durability aspects? You know, are we looking at traffic that's coming in from off the street? Are we, are we looking at, rugs that are going to be inset because, we need to make sure that a wheelchair has accessibility. So there's so many different variables at the onset of a project that we discuss alongside the interior designer. 00:06:34:22 - 00:06:55:09 Speaker 3 And often we will invite the, any sort of third parties into, into the mix as well, you know, whether it be the end user, because we also know that the end user is the one is going to be living with, with the carpet or the rug. And we want to make sure that it fits in with their, you know, sort of like, and whatever they're anticipating for the space. 00:06:55:09 - 00:07:09:08 Speaker 3 So, so there's a dialog that that happens and there's a lot of education that happens alongside. And, yeah. And so that's, that is essentially the main part of, of what we offer, in that service. Yeah. 00:07:09:10 - 00:07:34:14 Speaker 2 And I think it's the like it's the parameters understanding the, the client's parameters and understand and then them understanding our parameters and working within that is kind of where all the magic happens because, really anything is possible. I'm sure you've seen images of like, rugs dripping off of a wall and pulling onto a floor or, you know, or you can make, like, mountain scenes out of carpet. 00:07:34:17 - 00:07:44:18 Speaker 2 Or you could have like the super sleek surface. There's so many things that you can do with it, but just understanding, yeah, what do we need from this situation? 00:07:44:21 - 00:08:12:13 Speaker 1 And and that sounds like it includes I mean, obviously there's the fiber choice, the method of production choice. As you said, the installation choices. You all, if I'm not mistaken, work with mills in over, you know, ten countries, not to mention, obviously artisans, weavers, around the world. I think you're focus on natural natural materials, natural fibers is, is is one of the things, among others, that you're known for. 00:08:12:15 - 00:08:29:12 Speaker 1 How does that come into consideration? Do you find that most people have come to creative matters because of those factors? And how does that get woven in? Sorry for that, for the pun, but how does that get like kind of expressed in, in the creative, at the outset as well? 00:08:29:14 - 00:08:54:13 Speaker 3 Well, I think the variety that we offer is, is, something that really draws a lot of clients, back to us. it's really we're sort of a one stop shop when it comes to, you know, the world of carpet and area rugs. And we have so many different opportunities and options at our fingertips, and we have a knowledgeable team, within our office, we often visit the mills that we work with. 00:08:54:13 - 00:09:17:10 Speaker 3 And so we're continuing our education on that side and understanding, you know, which products become available and which ones definitely tell the sustainability story that we're trying to get out there and, yeah. So it's there's just, you know, so many different options that, we're constantly looking into and we're coming up with like a new texture collection to showcase our interior designers. 00:09:17:10 - 00:09:35:12 Speaker 3 You know, what are the options? how can we how can we use, this variety of, of fibers, you know, which ones would, would really complement one another? And you know what sort of textures we can achieve out of those? And, yeah, I don't know if there's anything else you want to add to that, Ali. 00:09:35:16 - 00:10:03:01 Speaker 2 Yeah, I guess maybe just also working with the different manufacturers that they, we work with, they have their expertise and their specific niche product. You know, for machine made goods, there's certain styles, a weave that one one particular machine can do and it's located on this continent. And we'll work within those parameters if we need to produce carpet for for a large like roll out area. 00:10:03:01 - 00:10:13:10 Speaker 2 And then if we're talking about like a delicate handmade piece, then we would be working with artisans that are specifically trained for that sort of. 00:10:13:12 - 00:10:16:16 Speaker 1 And where and where would someone like that be? 00:10:16:18 - 00:10:45:21 Speaker 2 Oh, okay. Yeah. All over the world. we have machine made like broad loom producers in Asia, Europe, North America, well, in Asia there's Thailand and China. In Europe, we're working with another manufacturer in Denmark and Poland and then in North America, machine made actually the kind of North American Mecca for machine made is in, Georgia at the, of course. 00:10:45:23 - 00:10:58:03 Speaker 2 Yeah. So, and they each have, like, fibers and constructions that they're each familiar with and so working with the right one for the right purpose. And yeah, there's kind of, 00:10:58:05 - 00:10:59:20 Speaker 1 It's very specialized. 00:10:59:22 - 00:11:11:11 Speaker 2 Very specialized. Yeah. And understanding the like the constraints that the client has, like what is budget number one. Is it performance, is it feel, is it color. 00:11:11:12 - 00:11:14:00 Speaker 3 Who knows and the timeline. Timeline. 00:11:14:02 - 00:11:15:01 Speaker 1 I imagine. 00:11:15:03 - 00:11:19:03 Speaker 3 There are several factors that come into play before we decide which path we want to take. Yeah. 00:11:19:04 - 00:11:56:14 Speaker 1 I think what's interesting when I think about interior design in general, I think about trends and and trendiness, if you will. You know, and this is especially in the world of floor coverings that would be patterns, as you said, weaves, but also especially colors, you know, thicknesses, etc. What's your kind of current take on, you know, where things are and where they're heading and is do you feel like clients are increasingly or less increasingly esthetically motivated and more kind of aware of the impact, actually, and we’ll start talking about sustainability in a minute here, but like, is it still esthetics 00:11:56:14 - 00:11:58:22 Speaker 1 is the number one driver? 00:11:58:24 - 00:12:00:07 Speaker 3 Yes, yes. 00:12:00:09 - 00:12:26:14 Speaker 2 Very much so. And probably depending on who I guess for residential clients, esthetics absolutely number one. And then high use places like a hospitality setting, there's a lot of functionality also being like going into the, into the mix, price point timeline, those always come into play. And, but there are a few that really do focus on, the sustainability factor as well. 00:12:26:14 - 00:12:31:12 Speaker 2 And that's, that's a, that is a shift because that's something newer. 00:12:31:14 - 00:12:51:17 Speaker 3 And I find that, that, it's actually aligning with the esthetic of the carpet as well. So like that is that's becoming more part of the conversation right from the get go. I'm finding more and more like, for example, we had a meeting with a client and, immediately, they wanted something produced locally. So they want it. 00:12:51:17 - 00:13:11:21 Speaker 3 They don't want they don't want to be shipping something in overseas. So that was the place for us to start. And so we, we, you know, that was the beginning of the project. And now we’re, you know, getting ready to sample. And it's really fantastic when we can get those items figured out right at the beginning of a project. 00:13:11:24 - 00:13:28:00 Speaker 3 Yeah, that it really does encourage and invigorate our, our own internal team to, to be able to work with locally, you know, with, our own local mills and, because often the price points don't allow for that. So when they do, it’s a real joy to be able to do that. 00:13:28:00 - 00:13:47:01 Speaker 1 So it's I mean, Creative Matters was founded obviously not by by you all, but, you've both been there for a long time, but it was founded in 1988. So for 35 years you've been doing this really kind of focus and won lots of awards, and you've shown at all the big design shows, and you've worked with most of the big brands and things. 00:13:47:03 - 00:13:55:16 Speaker 1 I'm curious, like what was the industry standard back then and like, where is it today? And kind of how is it evolving. 00:13:55:18 - 00:13:57:23 Speaker 2 Like industry standard of, 00:13:58:00 - 00:14:13:14 Speaker 1 On on floor coverings, like what was what was what was it that people came to creative matters for then? Was it just the creativity or, and the expertise, or was it also those values that you put forward so profoundly and that are really kind of driving the industry? 00:14:13:16 - 00:14:37:10 Speaker 2 Well, I think number one custom, that's our focus. And so that was because I think back in the late 80s, there weren't many options for being able to customize carpet. Everything was people were ordering carpets by the shipload, from all over the place. and and that's how manufacturers were used to being set up. So that's where Creative Matters really stood out 00:14:37:10 - 00:14:54:07 Speaker 2 was designing a single carpet for a single space, originally. But always it was like making sure that it was also designed to the highest level and, just of design as well as product integrity. 00:14:54:09 - 00:15:28:03 Speaker 1 I think it's so interesting because so much of the interiors, commercial especially world and very high end, obviously, residential but mostly commercial interior world is extraordinarily bespoke. Whether you're talking about furniture, whether you're talking about floor coverings, wall coverings, lighting, I mean, you know, iF Design who presents this podcast is, you know, we have a design award and it covers 82 categories of design, including lots and exterior and interior architecture, but also all the products, and a lot of that is commercial. 00:15:28:03 - 00:16:02:19 Speaker 1 And a lot of that is either bespoke meaning like, you know, it's one off but often bespoke means to your point, it's it's mass scale things, but just produce explicitly for them. I'm curious, especially since this is what you've been doing for 35 years, like how much of the commercial textiles interiors business is bespoke or custom versus mass, and kind of what's the impact of this on supply chains, on the artisans themselves, and obviously also on waste? 00:16:02:21 - 00:16:32:10 Speaker 2 That's a good question. I actually do you know, Ana, what the percentage is. I know it's definitely bespoke is much more common now than it used to be. I'm hearing this at least in the carpet world. currently there are a lot of like, warehouses kind of just full of ready made goods that are, that aren't moving the way they used to move. 00:16:32:12 - 00:16:34:20 Speaker 2 things are much more tailored now. 00:16:35:01 - 00:16:39:02 Speaker 1 And why do you think that is? Like, what brought that shift on? 00:16:39:04 - 00:17:06:01 Speaker 3 Well, I think, because carpet plays such an important role in these spaces, you know, and I think a lot of the off the rack options just weren't telling, weren't telling the story that they, they wanted to be told in these spaces. And so having the flexibility to choose, you know, a design and a custom curated, curated color palette, it makes a huge difference when it comes to putting a space together. 00:17:06:01 - 00:17:43:14 Speaker 3 And I think there's also a lot of joy in it, too. I think you, envisioning something like that. And, you know, especially we, we love the opportunity to, to get to get our, foot in the door, you know, behind the scenes on a project when it's just about to come to life and, and really, carving out a path where, you know, we can make an impact with what we do because there's so many different other suppliers and and things that particular space, you know, it's, I think, you know, the passion does speak for itself, a lot of the times. 00:17:43:14 - 00:18:06:05 Speaker 3 And, you know, you mentioned at one point, you know, like, how does that factor into waste? You know, I think part of the service that we provide is when we are working on these projects, we really try to minimize the amount of waste. you know, we work, we've worked on large scale projects, you know, we used to do floor to ceiling where we would take care of, multiple aspects of a project. 00:18:06:05 - 00:18:38:05 Speaker 3 And we're talking about really massive scopes, you know, for, for like 200 sweet, you know, hotel rooms, sorry. Hotel spaces. we're talking about guest rooms. We're talking about corridors. We're talking about all the public areas of ballrooms, pre function, what have you. there's so many different areas that come into play and by, by using creative matters to work on those projects, we're really able to, reduce the amount of waste overall, really take advantage of how these are being produced. 00:18:38:05 - 00:18:58:05 Speaker 3 So that for example, we have 112 color palette that we have to use, but according to the price and the quantity that we need to to produce, you know, it might be best if we can reduce waste here by, consolidating some of these areas into one color palette, but maybe just picking a few colors that we can switch out between each of the spaces. 00:18:58:05 - 00:19:09:07 Speaker 3 So there's a lot of thought behind, each step that we take when it comes to managing a project that and resource planning. Resource planning. Exactly. 00:19:09:11 - 00:19:21:05 Speaker 2 And making what's required, sometimes a little extra if they need some attic stock for repairs. But we're not just producing blindly and then hoping to sell. It's like producing on demand and so. 00:19:21:07 - 00:19:22:22 Speaker 3 Yeah, we don't carry stock. 00:19:22:24 - 00:19:32:18 Speaker 1 Then how often are these spaces usually getting redone like refresh? Obviously it depends. But like kind of is every ten years kind of the the industry norm. That seems to be what I've been hearing. 00:19:32:20 - 00:19:53:08 Speaker 3 Around ten years. But we have a great story about, a restaurant that we outfitted in, Toronto. it had been down for about 13 years. It was a high steakhouse downtown. And you, as you know, you're you might be aware of Canadian winters, and they could be pretty brutal. And this carpet was made out of 100% wool hand tufted in Thailand. 00:19:53:10 - 00:20:12:19 Speaker 3 And, it was down for 13 years, you know, but with the impact of Canadian winters, during that time, it came time for a refresh of the space. And so the interior designer, you know, decided, okay, we're going to do a refresh, we're going to redesign anyway comes the day where they're actually pulling the carpet out. It was still in pristine condition. 00:20:12:21 - 00:20:35:10 Speaker 3 So this is like one of the reasons why we really promote wool number one. But it's really for its longevity, you know, and the fact that it, and the clients are super pleased with the result as well when they, when they decide on going with the wool products. 00:20:35:12 - 00:20:59:09 Speaker 1 your studio prides itself on working with sustainable design principles and adhering to, I think you guys say, like the highest principle design, production and humanitarianism. I mean, I remember years ago, my first like, kind of thought process on, you know, I was in the fashion industry for years and then wanted to flip into sustainability. And I read a book called Fugitive Denim, and it followed a pair of jeans kind of from throughout the entire supply chain. 00:20:59:09 - 00:21:24:05 Speaker 1 And I was pretty blown away. I mean, where you get caught in how the dyeing happens, how the weaving. And that's obviously a very small little thing. You guys are working at a big scale. I'm wondering as as advocates for responsible production in floor coverings, commercial floor coverings, like what are some of the efforts you're helping Shepherd in that are helping to change, you know, the status quo for production? 00:21:24:07 - 00:22:00:21 Speaker 2 Oh, well, I'd say probably the biggest, our biggest effort is, about advocacy around the fibers that we use. the wool, primarily wool. It's been it's been quite a struggle because, well, it's just been kind of like, of course, that's what you use for carpet in our, like, amongst our knowledge, but, but there's been a lot of other dialogs going on in the industry that strongly promote, well, like, nylon has a very big voice in the industry, and we do use nylon as well. 00:22:00:23 - 00:22:36:13 Speaker 2 but just understanding why you would use one over the other and really digging down into with the story behind wool and why, why we can depend on it the way we do. because they're not a lot of facts out there around it. So actually, one of our original founders, Carol Siebert, she's on, some wool, international wool textiles organization and, wool Council panels just to kind of get the voice out there so that people are understanding the sustainability behind the products of our work and the fibers that we're working with. 00:22:36:13 - 00:22:55:21 Speaker 1 And, and, and you guys launched a product, I believe, last year that is quite I mean, you mentioned nylon. I mean, a lot of these synthetic, you know, products take, you know, 50 plus years. I mean, I think that's probably a low estimate, but or so to break down in a landfill, I mean, you talk about like the restaurant in Toronto that retrofit. 00:22:55:24 - 00:23:10:09 Speaker 1 But the the wool carpet was still in great shape. There's not a re-use argument for that, unfortunately, usually. But at least the natural fibers break down more quickly. Tell me a little bit about the the the product that you just launched. 00:23:10:11 - 00:23:42:05 Speaker 3 So yes, Eco Ax it's 100% biodegradable product. So it uses 100% undyed wool. And the backing that is used is 100% jute. And then the, other fibers that are used are, it's viscose. Yeah. So they're all plant based. Well, the viscose is plant based. And then of course the wool is natural. The jute is natural. So the entire product itself, including the glue, is 100%. 00:23:42:05 - 00:24:09:11 Speaker 3 We're even saying compostable because it will fully biodegrade in the soil. and that's a big deal. Big deal. It's a big deal. So, so as you were saying, nylon, when it's in the landfill, it could take, it could take hundreds of years, to be honest. It can take a lot, a lot, a lot of time. Whereas the latest testing for the eco ax product, it takes about 12 months for it to biodegrade. 00:24:09:13 - 00:24:35:20 Speaker 2 And it does have oxygen access to oxygen, but it is it can biodegrade and so and eco Axminster woven Axminster is a machine made broadly. so this is for volume areas. So to have because our handmade hand knotted area rugs, those are already like quite compostable, have a machine made broad loom, those are the biggest land fillers. 00:24:35:22 - 00:24:37:17 Speaker 3 Exactly. 00:24:37:19 - 00:24:53:18 Speaker 2 and to have those that can actually and some people are even grinding them down and using them as like, carriers for fertilizers to regenerate and enrich their soil. So it's like it's a benefit to the ecosystem rather than the problem. Yeah. 00:24:53:20 - 00:25:14:09 Speaker 1 That's really awesome. and last question before we get to our finals, because time's just evaporated on this, in terms of the social aspect, I mean, you guys are producing all over the world. You mentioned places like India and China and Thailand and places that don't necessarily have the greatest human rights, you know, track record, especially for small crafts people. 00:25:14:11 - 00:25:31:10 Speaker 1 how how is the social aspect of, you know, your work being enhanced? And obviously, if you lose the craftspeople, you don't have a business any longer. So how how are how are you kind of treating the future of, of, floor coverings in the context of the talent who makes it? 00:25:31:12 - 00:26:02:18 Speaker 2 Well, that's a big issue is finding the skilled labor for to actually produce the products. But, we've been working with an NGO, called label Step for quite some time. We were actually one of the first North American, we were the first North American partner with label step. But they, they're a third party that goes and, works with the manufacturers is their mostly their focus is on handmade goods, which where a lot of, a lot of the, biggest issues were happening. 00:26:02:20 - 00:26:48:01 Speaker 2 But, making sure that the manufacturers have a clear path for, social progress for all of the workers that are there. So, at the very least, starting off with fair wages and, humane working conditions, but then always progressively increasing the standards, making sure that the, the workers have, like financial literacy and access to, like hygiene and health care options and kind of like taking it another step and even, opening the discussion about pride around the craft that they're engaged in and how this is part of their, their social fabric as well. 00:26:48:01 - 00:26:57:23 Speaker 2 And, I think it's really it's nice to have a partner for that because it's a, it's a big, it's a big subject. 00:26:57:23 - 00:27:21:05 Speaker 1 Absolutely. I mean, label step, I think is, as an NGO is focus on fair trade is what is considered. Right? Yeah. No, it's it's very interesting. so last, second to last question, I mean, iconic references. I always ask this like, people want to learn more about floor coverings as an industry. where do you where do you refer them to? 00:27:21:07 - 00:27:45:22 Speaker 3 Well, we have two major publications that we've been working with within the industry for, for many years. We've, we've done we've, joined a quite a few of their trade shows that they've put into place over the last few years. so when it comes to all rugs, Persian and, antique rugs, we're looking at Hali magazine, as a really great source of, knowledge around 00:27:45:22 - 00:27:47:07 Speaker 1 How do you spell that, Ana? 00:27:47:09 - 00:27:49:01 Speaker 3 Hali. 00:27:49:03 - 00:28:19:03 Speaker 2 Okay, so they're based in the U.K., and they're the like they're the parent publication. They're like the go to people for knowledge around everything traditional. Got it. Yeah. And then that they have and I'm actually like, so they're, they have an offshoot publication called cover and that that publication covers more, contemporary pieces. So content and happening and so yeah, it's yeah. 00:28:19:03 - 00:28:23:23 Speaker 2 And they yeah, they're industry wide and people carpet nerds go to these. 00:28:23:23 - 00:28:39:17 Speaker 1 Yeah. I was going to say carpet nerds. I mean, it's like I remember a trip to, to to Morocco and spending a lot of time looking at, you know, all sorts of traditional Moroccan rugs from Kilims, and it's pretty it's pretty exceptional. You can you can nerd out pretty quickly. 00:28:39:19 - 00:28:40:22 Speaker 3 Yes. Yeah, yeah. 00:28:40:24 - 00:28:53:24 Speaker 2 Well, because there's thousands of years of history behind this and, and yeah, when you go to a place like Morocco, that is just steeped in this craft and it's part of your family, part of your history, it's like, yeah. 00:28:53:24 - 00:29:15:18 Speaker 1 There’s stories in it as you as you started by saying. Obviously the industry is changing, we've talked about trends, we've talked about sustainability, we've talked about kind of like the scale of projects and turn and turn of pace. If we're if we're thinking 25 years in the future, so that puts us at 2050, which is kind of crazy. What's both of y’alls 00:29:15:18 - 00:29:21:07 Speaker 1 or creative matters greatest hope for the future of floor coverings? 00:29:21:09 - 00:29:44:11 Speaker 2 I think having more transparency around, just the stories behind the creation of pieces. I mean, we have tons of information, but making sure that the clients are even interested in the stories behind their pieces so that we can actually share share the stories even more frequently, and maybe around the fibers as well. 00:29:44:11 - 00:30:04:18 Speaker 3 Go ahead. Exactly. And just to add on to that, of course, you know, we have our own sustainability team internally here at creative matters. And we have some really big goals for a small company like ours. So I would say in 25 years, you know, we're looking to divert, you know, most if not all of our carpet from the landfill. 00:30:04:21 - 00:30:08:15 Speaker 3 Yeah. So I think that's the biggest goal on the horizon. 00:30:08:17 - 00:30:25:13 Speaker 1 Well, I wish you all the best of luck in that. I hope that you educate not only your clients, but also the consumers of your clients. So everyone who walks into hotels should start thinking about, like, what they're walking on I feel like. But that's a story for another day. Hopefully the people listening who haven't thought about it are now thinking about it. 00:30:25:13 - 00:30:29:12 Speaker 1 And I thank you both so much for joining me on Future of XYZ today. 00:30:29:14 - 00:30:30:23 Speaker 3 Thank you so much. Pleasure. 00:30:30:23 - 00:30:33:15 Speaker 2 Yeah, really excellent conversation. Thank you Lisa. 00:30:33:17 - 00:30:51:05 Speaker 1 Thank you both. and everyone watching and listening make sure to, follow creative matters at their website and, and also, of course, iF Design as part of the Surround podcast network. We will see you again in two weeks. Thank you again, Ana and Ali. 00:30:51:07 - 00:30:52:01 Speaker 3 Thank you. 00:30:52:03 - 00:30:52:18 Speaker 2 Bye, Lisa. 00:30:52:18 - 00:30:53:17 Speaker 3 Bye.