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E8: What's Your Best Career Advice with Donyel Bacon · Executive Alliance Podcast

• Rebecca Snyder: Hey everyone, welcome to the program. Today we have Danielle Bacon, who is an executive with the federal government, and she really sits at the intersection of software development, organizational strategy, equity, and innovation, especially around AI. And alongside those federal leadership responsibilities, she has a longstanding commitment to developing future leaders, which we'll get to talk about a little bit today. And outside of government, Danielle is probably best known for founding the Junior League of Howard County, which she did pretty much during the pandemic. It required years of research and organizational development. And it within the first year it established partnerships supporting women experiencing domestic violence, children in foster care, and individuals experiencing homelessness. So Danielle, and you're a proud executive alliance member, so I'm super, super happy to have you here. Donyel Bacon: I am absolutely a very proud member of Executive Alliance and I joined Executive Alliance during a time of transition in my career and it was absolutely perfect. I will also say that the members of Executive Alliance individually have supported any decision that I've had to make. you know, doing this transition and it has been absolutely phenomenal. And just the excitement that I get just looking on to all the programming that we have and how just these years that I've been in, I can look back and see how many women we've developed or we've Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Donyel Bacon: added or we've just added to a conversation that sometimes you don't automatically get because it's uncomfortable. And so we've been able we've been able to, you know, have some hard conversations, but at the end it's been so beneficial For us as women. Rebecca Snyder: Well and I and I think that conversation sort of learning from one another is something that's so important to me in Executive Alliance. So I love that that's been a a a touchstone for you as well. And we got to live those values just now it's I guess it's been a couple of weeks ago since we did this at the inaugural Baltimore Orioles Women's Night. Donyel Bacon: Yes. Rebecca Snyder: which we I was really excited to see the Orioles kind of standing up for for women leaders and so we were invited, as you know, to to be part of I guess the women's Village at at a recent game, and you and I were working the table and asking Donyel Bacon: So much fun. Rebecca Snyder: everyone to tell us their best career advice for women. And so we thought it would be terrific. There were so many great ideas. so I thought it would be fun just to talk through some of the things that bubbled up. Donyel Bacon: Yes, and Rebecca, I have to say that that evening was so amazing. We had children as young as six years old. People who who Rebecca Snyder: that's right. Yes. Donyel Bacon: who actually were already, you know, in retirement, but all had something to add. So that was pretty exciting. I think I walked away from probably more knowledge from the six year old. It it was so funny. Yes. Rebecca Snyder: Well, 'cause she was the one that wrote Be Well. And you know, everyone around you know, it's it's y you're six years old, you're coming up thinking, all right, where am I mo like how am I gonna write on this piece of paper? But she was so cool and collected and Donyel Bacon: She was. And the fact that she named off all the things that her mom is responsible for. I thought that Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: was even incredible. I said she is in tune of what it's like to navigate, you know, six jobs at at once, being a woman. So she said it well though, for us to be well. Rebecca Snyder: And that I and actually I I love when children, especially girls, get to see their moms in action and you have a daughter and so Donyel Bacon: Yes. Rebecca Snyder: like how do you how do you model the woman leader that that you want to be and you want her to be? Like how do you how do you just communicate that through in your everyday? Donyel Bacon: Yes. And so I need to so I have two daughters, but one is older and one is younger. So I will say that whether both of them similar personalities. my daughter said something to me that I thought was interesting interesting. She said, You've always been my hero 'cause you always Rebecca Snyder: I don't want Donyel Bacon: know the answers. You seem to not be afraid. You seem to have so much courage. And when she said that I was thinking, Who is she talking about? Because I Rebecca Snyder: Right. Donyel Bacon: Right, because I that wasn't w that wasn't something that I even thought of. I just feel like when we had things we need to get done, we just do them. I d will say that I'm always a planner. So maybe that's Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: the execution that sh you know, she was witnessing, but for the both of them, One is just raising good humans. I just need them to be authentic and genuine and to always be proud of any decision that they are making. And I will say that both of them are doing a fabulous job at that. I'll also say to work with integrity. It's okay not to know something, but integrity is so important in our value system and my family. And so I think especially teaching girls that you don't have to conform to be something else. It is okay to be a hundred percent yourself. And showing up as yourself, I think doesn't delivers a better opportunity to really engage with people. So I think that it's I'm just so proud of the both of them for really living in that space. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Well and and two things that jump out at me from what you said were like the idea of that value system within a family, like a clearly articulated this is who we are, this is how we show up, I think clarifies so many other decision making points. Like if you're really grounded in this is who I am, then it cuts through a lot of clutter, I guess, is the best way to put that. Donyel Bacon: Absolutely. I think just being I think honesty and just it's so important. I will give you an example like my daughter and just because you asked a question about them out the younger one, she right now is trying to make a decision in terms of sports. She is a soccer player, diehard, and now she's going to high school, so she sees the competition. And so she's trying to navigate, wait, I'm coming from this small school and I was the best. And now I'm trying to understand, you know, what that is and all these other emotions are happening. happening that we're walking through and I for me it just feels like it is absolutely okay. It's just always opportunity to learn. And we use the term opportunity in our family a lot. You can always do everything. So let's be clear about that. But where are the opportunities that you can learn in the process. Rebecca Snyder: Mm, I love that. And it so that brings me to some of the career advice that we got. And wh I wanted to start with Fake It Till You Make It because I think there's we were talking about this before we were recording and Donyel Bacon: You would have to Rebecca Snyder: you know, base w With what you were saying, you know, your daughter's moving into a situation where she's probably not gonna be the best. And how like that can rock anyone to their core. But I think women have this idea that, you know, we've all heard the women need to know how to do everything on a job description before they will take the chance. And sort of that idea of maybe over preparing before you take on opportunity. So like that I I just it's swirling in my head. A little bit like, okay, perfection, not being good enough, and faking it till you make it. And I'd love to hear your insights on that. Donyel Bacon: So I when I when you and I were discussing this, I really thought about the younger version and even some of my menes. It feels Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Donyel Bacon: like you when you're in your younger version and you say you're you're mid career well actually when you're kinda entry, you're coming into the workforce of researching who's in the office, meaning in terms of the mission and all those things we always talk about. But I also think it's just something about showing up with confidence Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: and delivering a a a a message that you have, you know, kind of taught yourself about how to land that position. So when I hear fake it till you make it, it's like I'm going to show up as if I'm already well versed in all these areas, which most often when you're first walking on, you're not, because there's so much more to learn. And I can look back on my career and say, Exactly, I d I know that I was that person you know, early on. And thank goodness I've had great mentors along the way. And then fast forward when you think about, you know, kinda where we are now It's really about what you know and how you've become an expert and how you have, even if it's things you don't know, how do you lean on others? How do you Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Donyel Bacon: lean on others to kind of fill some of the gaps? so that you're not always faking it. But we're definitely gonna make it. That is for sure. Absolutely. Yes. Rebecca Snyder: Well you're bringing these resources in and as a team you're making it and You know, 'cause I I think and and this speaks to me about like leadership development. I think when you're early in your career, you're like, okay, you're a tactical performer. Like you are doing certain things, you have your rubric, you're hitting it. It's not to say you don't have that when you're more developed as a leader, but you're you know, you're just starting out. You're not you know, you're not directing others usually. You're the one delegated being delegated to. And so Donyel Bacon: Absolutely. And I will mm. No, go ahead. Rebecca Snyder: go ahead, I'm sorry. Well, I was just thinking like for you, where did you sort of start to bring in that leadership aspect of working through others and how was that transition for you? Donyel Bacon: You know, I have to so let me go back and tell you a really quick funny story. So I can remember sitting in the room and at the time it was just senior execs around the table and I was the person with all the answers, but they wouldn't ask me the question. I was the only I was the only woman. Rebecca Snyder: Ha Donyel Bacon: And I was actually the only woman of color. But I every week this would happen and I would f I felt so defeated. Like, what do I how do I get past this? I walked out of the building and I called my grandmother and I said, I need some help. She retired from the federal government and she was in in her position, she had to kind of navigate similar. So she said, You stand up. Stand up. And while you're speaking, they're gonna they're gonna listen to you. She said, and you say, I have the answer. I have to say that was the most pivotal moment in my career because I started doing that and my name started, it was resonating. And and when it came to decision making, they knew I had the answer, so they started asking me. But it took something so simple. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: So very simple for for the connection to happen and in terms of actually moving forward, I had the confidence to start delegating more. I had already had a little bit of authority, but then it was full force now because now they were looking for me for the answers and I had to delegate to get more in terms of resources. Rebecca Snyder: Well, and I think you can only do so much as an individual and when you have Donyel Bacon: Yes. Rebecca Snyder: when you start working as a team, then you can magnify your impact. But I wanna go back to your grandmother's advice because I think that's so fascinating that just the simple act of saying, I have the answer and coupling that with physically standing up. So like Donyel Bacon: Yes. Rebecca Snyder: literally taking up more space. And you know Donyel Bacon: Absolutely. And she told me to count. Rebecca, she said, and you count five seconds. And as soon as you know that you have she said, You stand and you stand quietly for poise. So Rebecca Snyder: I don't know if that. Donyel Bacon: she said, and you you you say, she said, and don't say it too loud. I have the answer to that. And you immediately start speaking. You don't give them an opportunity not to hear you. I'm not kidding. Rebecca, it was it was Rebecca Snyder: That's a master class right there. Donyel Bacon: It it turned everything around at that moment. I'm not kidding. Rebecca Snyder: And sometimes it is the simplest things. It's like a reframing or a physical a physical space. Donyel Bacon: Yes. Rebecca Snyder: and so actually I guess one of the one of the things that came up in the career advice that we got really was about physicality. You know, there were a couple times where people were talking about prioritizing your health or or getting outside. And so we're such indoor cats these days. Like what what does that advice say to you? Donyel Bacon: Yeah. so I will say I think I'm gonna say post COVID one thing happened on COVID, a lot of people, as tragic as as it was, there we I think bonded more. Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Donyel Bacon: And as a result of that coming out, it does feel like we are in a a time right now where we're not only connected, it almost feels like we are in a position where you have to care for yourself. There was a time where I would work 12 and 13 hours a day. And then during COVID, all of that kind of ceased and you you Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: felt what it was like to share space and time, more quality time. And so now I'm very intentional. I'm very intentional. About not only prioritizing, but learning how to say no. I didn't know how to always do that. I would Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: my plate would be so full, I would give 10%, 15%. And then I realized that's not beneficial to anyone. So one comes of honesty, what you can and cannot do. The second thing comes into how do you value yourself? I'll give you something quick that happened to me. One of my dear, dear colleagues, actually, she's in the junior league in in Georgia, and she's a runner. She does marathons. And I called her one day and I said, I need your help. I need accountability partner. And I said, I know you're doing these marathons. I need to really get out there, get into shape, and I want to start running. And then she said, Rebecca just said to me, she said, accountability partner. If you don't love yourself enough that you can take care of yourself, I love myself enough. She said, I don't like running. I run because I need to run. I don't want Rebecca Snyder: Uh-huh. Donyel Bacon: she said, I don't want to be very old and can't move. I want to be able to be mobile. So that's That's why I run. She said, I get up at 5 a.m. because I know that I love myself enough to do it. She said, so you don't need an accountability to all you just learn how to love yourself more. And I was on the phone like this. I said, What? Rebecca Snyder: That's like real talk. That's Donyel Bacon: Yes. So what I'm saying to you is yes. Rebecca Snyder: Wow. Donyel Bacon: So I so when she said that to me and I said, Wow, okay. I didn't I thought I loved myself very well. But I understood. I understood what she was saying. And that also was a very I had to put a little bit more thought into it. And so now I'm very intentional about how I spend time. Rebecca Snyder: Right. Donyel Bacon: because it is mentally healthy for you to make decisions based on your quality of life. Rebecca Snyder: And I'm just thinking back to, you know, to the covet times where you're right, you felt like you had Like everything stopped and you could then sort of sort out it's sort of like when you clean out your kitchen cabinets. Like I if if I'm doing if I'm doing a big clean out project, I literally take everything out and then decide what I want to put back. And I think because you can't know what you have until it's all sort of out on the countertop and then you can really see what space you have available to you. Like if you just are like, I'm gonna pull one thing out and shove something else out, something back in like all your crap's still at the back of the cabinet. And so I wonder if like COVID was our big kitchen cabinet reset in some ways. Donyel Bacon: It absolutely was. It was definitely clean out phase. And I think that COVID did something else. I think it really taught us that life is short and so what are we gonna make of it? And how are we gonna add more value to the system? Whatever your system is, you know, whether you're religious or not, does not matter. But where are you gonna add in and how are you gonna fill your space? And I don't mean take up space, I mean fill the space that you know what you're living in. sometimes I think that that came out of really talking how we're gonna move my family forward out of COVID, which you and I were just talking about, in terms Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: of you know, how do you live well, but how You make conscious decision and choices so that you're very intentional. And sometimes I think your job dictates something else, but you have to be honest about where is your value system and how does it play? You know, you and I talked prior to the recording, and I was saying how my kids' schedule was busy. Pick up, drop off, you know. And we may, my husband and I in passing, and the kids are, you know, every week there is something we have to pick up, some things early, drop off, you know, early. And I say that to to say that I s what are we even teaching our children in terms of how when they move into the workforce and things like that. So I so my point is I think just being very intentional how you use space and how you bring the value of health and wellness. Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. And I'm wondering also, like, because it's so easy people say yes for a a variety of reasons, and it is difficult to say no, so I wanna understand how you have the courage to say no and it sounds like it's so fraught, but you know, like, is it self-discipline to be like, okay, I have X amount of time for kind of extracurriculars and this is how I want to spend it and I'm gonna say no. Or like are you setting really clear priorities? What's what's your strategy? It sounds so easy. Just say no, but that's a lot harder than it sounds. Donyel Bacon: It's It is and be and it's also because to the core of me and in my DNA, I am built for service. I was created Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: for service. I I'm very aware of why I'm here, why I exist is to serve others. However, I think when I realized that and really I have to I I really think it's perimenopause, honestly, that came into place because I had to adjust. I had to adjust with cognitive brain fog. I had to Rebecca Snyder: the sheer exhaustion. Yep. Donyel Bacon: adjust for this cognitive delay and you know they went Not really words for what I was experiencing, but I do Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: know that you I want to show up 100%. And I was not doing that. I was given 10 or 15% and it wasn't enough. And so I had to have a conversation with myself to say, okay, so I don't have the capacity at the moment. Not that I won't help at some point in the future, but at this moment I just don't have the capacity. Because I want to give you 100% of whatever you're asking me, I just can't do that. Or Or I utilize my resources around me. So if there's someone else that can do what they're asking me to do, I'll just defer. Let me make Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Donyel Bacon: this connection for you because I think, you know, this other person may be able to help and may have the capacity to help. I just can't at this moment. So I Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Donyel Bacon: don't I at one time I don't think I definitely could not have done that. But I have to do it now because it wasn't fair to the person or myself because they were not gonna get a hundred percent of me. Because I didn't have a hundred percent to give. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: So Rebecca Snyder: No, that makes perfect sense. And and that's a discipline that's that's like a muscle memory that you have to build over over time in some ways. Well, thank goodness we can Donyel Bacon: So I'll thank Trey Manipars for that. Rebecca Snyder: glad we can thank it for something every once in a while. But Donyel Bacon: Right. Rebecca Snyder: it's so you also you said a really big yes when you decided to found a new chapter of the junior league. So tell me how that came about. Donyel Bacon: So Antoinette Brown and I were in the Junior League of Baltimore and we lived in Howard County, but we had to travel you know, to a lot of places but and don't get so Baltimore is actually our core of what we always want to support. Let me first of all say that. and we helped Diana Emerson, so who was also a member. She started Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: the J Junior League of Prince Georges County. And for those who don't know, Junior League is an organization to support women and is really to support women develop. And there's a lot of entry level middle, you know, kind of mid mid career women who kinda enter into junior league. So Diana Emerson started Prince Rogers County and she asked us to come on board to support her. Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Donyel Bacon: And at the same time, we said we really need one in Howard. Howard has a lot of nonprofits, but not nonprofits that are de dedicated to women, to women's growth and all the things that come with us really developing our wholesal. So that's how it started. And it started like twenty nineteen where we did the community scan to see is it viable? Do we really need it? And the answer was yes, after doing all the research, putting a business plan together. And after completing Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: the business plan, then also looking for prospective members to come in and to join that had the passion and a commitment to really serve Howard County. Rebecca Snyder: So what did that community scan look like? I guess I'm I'm more familiar with, you know, like market research to move into is is it more similar to what we would expect from a business or is it different when you're kind of starting a non profit? Donyel Bacon: It's this similar. It's similar. So we had to do research on every single nonprofit in the county. Looked at their mission. Rebecca Snyder: wow. Donyel Bacon: We looked at their mission. We looked at their tenure, how long they have been here, their success, who were what an an emission meaning was it geared towards women, children? So we created this huge spreadsheet to show all of these things. Then we also Rebecca Snyder: Right. Donyel Bacon: had to go because we have Junior League of Annapolis, we Junior League of Baltimore and Junior League of Prince Roses County, we had to say, is it a Viable need because we have leagues within 25 miles of Howard County. So Rebecca Snyder: Right. Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: then we looked at every zip code within all the other counties and we did a comparison based on the Census Bureau of age of women, the the population, the median income, because all of that is important. And then we also looked at schools. What does the schools offer? Where do they rank? We had to put all this information together so that we could have but a true portfolio of how does Junior League of Howard County enter this space, but how can Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: we be successful? And we had we needed those comparatives to be able to do that. And then also, what are we gonna do while we're here? So Rebecca Snyder: Right. Donyel Bacon: that was a secondary piece to it. But just really having the data to show should we establish here? Rebecca Snyder: Mm. And obviously you should have because you did. And how is how is that chapter going now? Because that's i I mean, you started in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty brought the pandemic. There's been a lot of change. Donyel Bacon: So we and we got our final approval. So we were approved in twenty twenty to use Junior League's name. In 2020, the official meaning the final approval, I'll call it the final, because you're operating like a nonprofit with Junior League of Howard County's name. And then post that they give you the final approval, which was 2022. And in 2022 to 2024 was under my leadership. And then I don't I don't know if you've noticed the term sustainer. So I became a sustainer, which meant I've done my active time and now I'm more in a mentorship role. And Junior League of Howard County at the time. time of new establishment was not allowed to have sustainers. So then Rebecca Snyder: Got it. Donyel Bacon: mm-hmm. So the new leadership has moved in and they're doing a phenomenal job. The same partnerships that I established when I first started out, they're still there. They're thriving. They're doing very, very well. Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: That's wonderful. And for people who aren't really familiar with the Junior League, you know, I I kind of think of it as a kind of organization that has a lot of the same goals and aims as Executive Alliance, but for women who are perhaps a little bit earlier in their career and you do Donyel Bacon: Yeah. Absolutely. Rebecca Snyder: like age out sounds so wrong, but but that's when you become a sustainer, right? Am I getting that right? Donyel Bacon: sustainer after you have seven after you have about so some leagues have seven years, eight years of time, some even I think eight or n I think eight years is the max. You do eight years of active service. Also Junior League is a community service organization. So they do hands on in the community, whether it's food drives or, you know, d making donations to schools, taking a community project from its infancy stage, doing the research, getting an organization to tr you know, transition. This is what you're saying. Success should look like, like helping them do a SMOT analysis. So the Junior League Rebecca Snyder: Here. Donyel Bacon: offers all those things for organizations, other nonprofits as well. Rebecca Snyder: I had no I didn't realize that you offered services to nonprofits. That's that's pretty impressive. Donyel Bacon: Yes, yes, yes. And just think about when we first started on this I th and I have to credit Junior League of Baltimore for really teaching w you know, when I first came in, I started Junior League Baltimore. But that in Rebecca Snyder: huh. Donyel Bacon: the infancy stage and there are a lot of things I will tell you, Rebecca, if you have not heard the history, you Junior League of Baltimore has so much history in all the things they've done in the for Baltimore City. Establishments. Rebecca Snyder: I'll have to check that out. Donyel Bacon: You absolutely, absolutely. From Rebecca Snyder: I feel like that's another podcast episode just rolling up there. Donyel Bacon: I think it is. I think it is. Rebecca Snyder: And so that kind of brings me to some of the career advice that we got, which was don't be afraid to ask questions. because and I think sometimes when you don't know something you want to kind of s jump over it and be like, well, I think I know what that is, but I'm not really sure. So I'm not gonna ask and maybe put you on the spot or put me on the sh spot. But I obviously didn't have the deep grounding in the junior league and I wouldn't have known if I didn't ask that question. So I wanted to talk to you about sort of your attitude towards questions. I mean we always say there's no dumb question, but how is questioning shown up in your Yeah. Donyel Bacon: So I've always been curious about so many things. So I don't think asking questions has always been hard for me. I think that that has been relatively easy, but I think it's relatively easy because I've grown up, you know, with a larger family. So and for Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: us to communicate, we we had to talk with with each other. I will also say I think I started mentorship, meaning being a mentor very early on. I was coming out of on my way to college. So I said that to say I was teaching other young women how to ask the right questions. So I don't think asking questions for me has not has not been I think some of times it may be taking courage to ask a certain type of question, especially if it's from your leadership, because sometimes that may seem and also too if you work in certain parts of the federal government that you're working with the military, you have to understand the protocol. the protocol of h when to ask a question the proper time so because there are rules in place for that. So outside of that, but I'm never nervous for me, but I think it's because of my upbringing, because I was Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: always around. and then also helping others to, you know, be able to feel comfortable with asking questions. And sometimes I'll phrase a question if I'm not sure. Like I'm not sure if I'm even asking you the right question. But this is kind of what I need to understand. Do you have the answer for that? You know? Rebecca Snyder: So it it sounds like, you know, sort of being creating an open question so that even if you're not getting it quite right, you still can open a conversation. Like that case is important. Donyel Bacon: Yes, that's exactly what it is just opening a doorway to say, I'm coming to you humbly. With I'm you know, I'm hu I'm very humble in my approach because I do need information and and I'm only really thinking about like leading up. So when I think about some of the positions, you know, within my organization, there are some silent rules around how you approach people. Rebecca Snyder: Mm. I'm sure. Donyel Bacon: And so and I've and I've never been one not to pick up a phone or stop by a desk. And that I do and but I came from private industry, so let me say that. And in private industry it was you just go and speak to whoever you want to speak to and you Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: ask questions. The federal government side of the house a little different if you you know, working with like military. So, you know, I got my hand slept a few times 'cause you need to go through someone's executive or whomever, but I was still to ask and the only thing I could do is, you know, say I'm sorry, I didn't know the protocol, but can I still have the answer? Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Well and and I love that idea of of it separating the question from the from the format, you know, like Donyel Bacon: Yes. Rebecca Snyder: under s and understanding those silent rules. And I think also for women, sometimes especially I would imagine for women of color, understanding and navigating all those silent spaces can be very difficult. Not because you don't, you know. not because you can't understand it or whatnot, but like I think sometimes the systems are in place to keep the people in power in power. And kind of like navigating through I I wanna understand if you have strategies on on navigating those sort of silent workplace rules. Donyel Bacon: Well, the first I would say is, you know, and this is not my quote, but I use it, it's actually written written on my board in my office, is be responsible for the energy you bring. So Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: I say that because always show up with so much positive energy that you fill the room. So it kind of downplays if something is kind of heavy happening. And Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: when you insert yourself, you're inserting yourself in a way that is that you are probing but you're probing in a very respectful way and and again I'm only giving this answer based on my work environment and so because you have to know protocol and people so so for me when I enter a space I try to enter with not only positive energy but I have already done my assessment a little bit on something a little bit that I know about you know who whoever's in room so that I can easily either comment on something, whether it was an accomplishment, or try to get some connection so that we have some common ground that we can work from. And that has just always been very helpful to me and how I kind of move. And even if there are some unknown rules. If I look ahead and figured out who was in the leadership chain of command, if I knew the one person, I probably would just cold call someone and say, hey, I'm gonna be coming to this meeting and I just need to understand, you know, what is the right way to approach whatever I is I'm trying to get accomplished. That has Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: always been quite helpful. And you know, I'm when I say this, some people may listen and say, why does she say it this way? But I have to say it. I ignore the fact that I may be the only minority in the room. I don't pay any attention because regardless, at the end of the day, I have to still do a job and I have to do it well. Now Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: I can tell if there are decisions that are made or you know, maybe I become invisible, but again, I know how to stand up now. So so I make sure that I'm not invisible and and I just make sure that I've done my homework so that I have the information that's needed and I'm gonna deliver it in the way that is understandable so that they're you know, so that so that it's it's really about understanding how to build confidence around when you are sharing something. But I think the first thing is being responsible for the energy you bring. Rebecca Snyder: Well, and you move through the world with such serenity and such sort of sort of like calm knowledge, I guess is the way I would put it. and and so I love that idea of of kind of leaning into the energy that you bring, and it's not like you're trying to win people over with your enthusiasm and you're like, I wanna be your friend. But Donyel Bacon: No. Rebecca Snyder: you do make a strong connection with people and finding that common ground. I think it's a of Donyel Bacon: Yes. Rebecca Snyder: really th that's I think great advice for for how to navigate the work world because it strikes me also like that's how you build a network, like intentionally figuring out what do I need to get this done and assembling the resources to be able to do it. Do you see any parallels? Donyel Bacon: And for that. Yes, that's exactly what I do. So any organization that I've gone into lead, I as soon as I go in, I figure out who smees at what. Because I I I cannot do the job all on my own. That is that is clear. So I find and I know things I'm good at. So in my organizations, I always look across whether it's down to like my supervisors or you know, if they're technical directors or whatever this means or even strategists, I look and see who is who does what well. Would a accomplishments that they had so I can have them in my toolkit and I have very transparent conversations around this is what you know the next say the next iteration of whatever we're trying to build. And I leverage their expertise, but I also celebrate their expertise. Because I want others to know that it is not just me, but this makes up a team. And I call it one I I normally start off in each of my staff meetings with this if one fail, we all fail. Because we have to be depend on each other. And we have to have an understanding of who's doing what. And it's okay for everyone not to know all the answers. Absolutely it is. But you do need to have confidence enough to allow space for someone else to step forward to share their knowledge. I Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: don't so I that's what I've done in every organization that I've led. Rebecca Snyder: love that. I you know, I'm also thinking like w in in community and as you're building community, you've done that through your work with the junior league. It feels like you do it also within your workplace. like what comforts me in community is not feeling like I have to do it all myself. Like I know, okay, someone else is feeling led to work in this area. Another person might be led to do this and I might care about all of those things, but I don't have the capacity to work in all those things. And so like knowing what you're good at and also having faith and sort of that people have your back and are gonna be doing the work in a way that I feel comfortable with is so important. And I just I was curious if you had those those feelings in your own workplace. Donyel Bacon: I again so let me say I've actually early on in my career when I was in private industry, I did not always delegate properly. Let me say then I'm gonna say properly because I used to try to do it all. You know? Because I Rebecca Snyder: Uh-huh. Donyel Bacon: and I what I realized is is because I came in with not always having the level of trust that something would get done to my level of satisfaction. And that was a lesson that I had to really sit with myself to say, okay, so yes, it's not done the same way and that's fine, but are we gonna get to the same outcome? And their outcome may have been much better than mine. But it took maturity and also having a mentor have this conversation about how to do things a little different. And then also out growing when I came into my career When I was in private industry, I worked for a large telecommunication company. And because I was the youngest person, it always felt like when my judgment was always second guess. Because the people, you know, my work is it the the staff had been there much longer. And so Rebecca Snyder: Right. Donyel Bacon: they didn't really feel like that I had the experience. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: Looking back on it, I kind of felt that they felt that way, which is probably why I didn't have the level of confidence and also confident enough to trust. But that came in time as I progressed. And so now I have no problem with it at all. Not at all. Rebecca Snyder: So how did you learn to delegate? I think that's such a struggle for many people, for very for very capable women, for everyone, you know, you it's it's hard to unclench little bit and say, okay, you might do it differently and it's okay. But so how do you do it? Donyel Bacon: Getting married and having children. Getting married and having children. Because I have to tell you, I again I'm a planner, so I know things out. I know, you know, y what what is the next thing we're gonna do for the kids, for ourselves. And I think that I think just watching my husband with our children, I think was enough. And and he and actually he's way more detail oriented than I am. But I had to loosen a little bit. Now, let me go back on my career for a second because that's fast forward, you know, years after I started my career, but I it took me some time, but it took me time because I had to figure out how to pay attention to strengths and weaknesses and also take the time to develop others. Like those are just pieces that kind of had to go into how to for me to build character. But I would say how I learned to delegate is to start being honest with this is something that is not in my capacity, but it actually is a part of your job function. And is this something you can possibly possibly do for the team because we really need your help. So I started figuring out how to allow s space for this is what you're good at and talking to your staffer. And this is how it fits into the bigger picture. When I delegate is not just saying go do. It's really about as a team, how are we all benefiting? And that's also what I'm adding in as well. So it's it's more Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: of a conversation and it's not like you shall do. Rebecca Snyder: Right. Well it feels like like systems thinking in some ways. Donyel Bacon: Yes, it absolutely. That's exactly what it is. Absolutely. Rebecca Snyder: And you know, we're all kind of self centered people in the big scheme of things, like you need to think about yourself and like, okay, when you're delegating it's not I want you to do this for me. It sounds like you approach it as you have the strength that you can contribute to the project, the team, the group. Am I getting that right? Yeah. Donyel Bacon: Absolutely. Absolutely. And if in fact I'm asking you to stretch a little, I'm only asking you to stretch because I see that you have the qualities and maybe you have not been set up to learn and get, you know, a few other things under your belt. And so I'm always looking at what can we add to the toolkit. And I do I will say that it's much easier I can't even say that. I won't say that I gonna say it's much easier for people who are say entry level, mid-level, but that's not accurate either. I think it's having a conversation around where are you in your career. And how can I help? There's Rebecca Snyder: Mm, mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: there are some individuals who say they're five years to retirement. They really want to be retired in place and enjoy what they're doing. To come and have a conversation about what is your next position or how can it's like why Rebecca Snyder: Not excited. Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: You know, why are you having this conversation with me? You know. Rebecca Snyder: Right. Donyel Bacon: So I think it's assessing you know, individually and not collectively. Because I think that's our role. I think it's our role as leaders. You have to take the time to understand your people and how do they fit into the mission, but give them space to develop and give them the tools to develop. I believe in stretching. So and also what I what I I push and I've heard I do well at I get to yes. So if they're you're telling me no in my brain. Honestly, Rebecca, I can feel the wheels just turning. okay. Are we saying no because we're just used to saying no? Because I know there's a Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Donyel Bacon: way around us getting this done. So if it's funding for money, then that's fine. I'll go make some connections and find the funding. If it's a technology, if it's something dealing that we don't have the tools in place from a technology perspective, then can we borrow it from someone? Like can we, you know, so I just think there's always ways of looking at how to solve problems and how to help people join you with it if you they can see the benefit for themselves. Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Well and and always kind of like failure is not an option and like being agile enough to think through how you can get to a a different yes. It may not be the yes in the form that you thought. Donyel Bacon: Yes, absolutely. Rebecca Snyder: But keeping keeping that sort of North Star idea. Donyel Bacon: Yep, and failure is opportunity. So even when I I'm talking and not someone says, I just failed at that. No, you didn't. You it is you have now opportunity so we can do things something different. I mean, ca there's nothing in life is final other than death. Everything else is negotiable. Rebecca Snyder: so true. Can you tell me about a time where like I because I feel like you always learn so much from failure and discomfort. What do Donyel Bacon: yes. Rebecca Snyder: you have a something that you'd like to share where, you know, you l was where there was a big learning opportunity? Donyel Bacon: Absolutely. So I I I would say I took over an organization that was a non-technical organization. It's the first time I led a non-technical organization. And I I was I think coming into the position already with some knowledge that I was in a more of a caretaker role versus leading the the organization. And that's because so many things had happened with the staff or whatever. And so I think I got kind of caught up into not leading the way I should have. been leading, but helping the employees get past a point of what they felt like the organization had not done for them. So it was like me s using all this time to right a wrong that happened when I say years, like years before, which had nothing to do with the the today. But I just Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: couldn't figure how to navigate how to get past that so that we could really get down to solving the things we were solving for mission. So the failure in that, and I'm gonna say opportunity, was I should have shown up as myself. Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Donyel Bacon: and not someone else. I showed up as someone who had to really figure out how to try to solve a problem that could not be solved. And I had to be honest with that, but I did not I wasn't honest about it. I was trying to just pacify the reality of what was happening. But Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: at the same time, my leadership in terms of how I should have been leading was was kind of coming down. And the all the emotional stuff of what happened in the past was here. And so I was trying to figure these things out, even with calling and help from an organization within our Agency that can help like with problems and things like that, like organization development. And so my lesson there was Even if I have pre, you know, knowledge about something that has happened, it is still my job and my duty, because I'm there to fulfill mission space with taking care of my employees to show up as myself. Now the employees may not ha whatever has happened is just having a conversation about what I'm really here for and helping them as much as I can, but not not absorbing myself with it. So that's how it felt. and I'm not giving you all the details around it. I'm kind of trying to be surface purposefully, but I think the failure came in that I was not direct enough and that I did not lead the way I should have really led because I was pacifying, I wasn't showing up confidence and strong. Rebecca Snyder: You know, you are speaking to my heart because I've had situations and I'm I'm thinking back like, gosh, what an interesting reframing because I've had situations where staff it kinda wants to readjudicate things that happened maybe like a decade ago. And that hurt is still so close to the surface, but I can't do anything about what happened ten years ago. I can only like maneuver in this space, but I I didn't know how to like get from that emotional anguish that that person was have was having. Donyel Bacon: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: And it sounds like maybe you had a lot of emotional anguish over a couple different people Donyel Bacon: Yes, yes. Rebecca Snyder: to like move it along to say, but this is what we're gonna do now. And what I heard you Donyel Bacon: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: say was that, you know, you have to acknowledge the hurt, see where you are, and keep it about the mission and and I think I didn't do it adroitly enough to do it in a way that didn't feel like I was discounting that emotional side. And so Donyel Bacon: Yes. Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: like and people bring them h their whole selves to work, whether they think they do or not. So like how do you deal with those big emotions in in institutions? Donyel Bacon: Whoa, okay, so that was a lesson learned for me. So now my approach is to be authentically myself. I just cannot and to and again we go back to integrity. I was working with integrity in the sense that I was ensuring that everyone was receiving what they needed as an employee. But I will say that I think right now the emotional piece. So when you work in a certain mission space, so just say we're developing software. We are developing software, it's very cut and dry. These are the requirements. These are the experts we need. These this is the language that we're gonna use. This is the hardware, you know, we're gonna, you know. So it's not like it's it's people driven, but it's driven, not emotional driven. This organization is a little different because I had to tap into all the emotion about family matters that were happening, the what the old leadership did or did not do, and how they did it and all these things. I had to sit in a space that I had to really learn some things about myself. What I did not realize is that I don't think I was tapped in enough emotionally. Because I really never had say it again. Rebecca Snyder: yourself, you mean you weren't tapped in emotionally to yourself or to the others or to whom? Donyel Bacon: To myself, to myself because all these years I have worked on programs that you're just using tools, your building tools. And so when you deal with and you're in an organization that is not about the tools so much as more about emotional things. and I I think for a person like me who likes to get the next thing done. Remember I told you early on I'm a planner. So I I I know already next year this time what I plan to do. I know the year after that what is going on. So for me and I did this thing which I thought was even funnier. Actually I did it in the junior league. AGLI offered you know, they do an assessment of your personality or something. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: And so the results of that was that I don't do well with small talk. Like I go, I it's like, okay, the mission. Rebecca Snyder: You go deep. Okay. Donyel Bacon: So this particular organization, I came in and I shared my results and I said, This is so interesting. What do they mean I don't do small talk? And they laughed and was like, We will have a whole conversation for like 30 minutes and you will, you know, give your opinion about adding one thing in. you know, about you personally, but you check out and go back to your desk and start working on work. Rebecca Snyder: But you got stuff to do. Donyel Bacon: But I had no idea because I feel like I'm always talking and, you know, sharing, but I don't think I do it at the level that was needed in this organization. So I thought that was funny. And so then I started talking to my other organization. Like I served on the board of girls, girls on the run here in for Central Maryland. And so, you know, I was listening in to like really think about how I show up. That really caused me. And I said, my goodness, I I this is exactly. I did not realize that I I can see in a conversation that it's like I check out After this a little bit of a small talk and I'm thinking about, okay, so what are we doing here? What is the next thing we need to do? I Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: had to learn to not do that. That was one of the lessons that I learned about dealing with emotions. That you one have to meet people where they are, and you have to add in. Sometimes people may need a little bit more time, then you have to see if you have the capacity to share. If not, then it's okay to say that. But for me to have teams and organizations. of people and I even outside that said the same thing that I'm just about business? It's enough. No, the one thing I will say that they did say though, but if we call on you and you say you need something, you'll stop what you're doing and give it to us right away. You know, or you will say what we need and it's done because you'll make a call. But I'm saying it to you to say if I heard someone say that, it was say, well is that person really authentic? you know that that's how I felt walking away, which is why I had to really start processing my own emotion to figure out, well, why do I function this way? Why do I Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Donyel Bacon: function this way? And what I came up with is because I think early on in my career, I learned to just get things done like because I had to. I was on a tr I was on the grind as you know, I had grit. Thank goodness I don't have to have it now because I'm getting older. But Well we will always have it as women. But my point is when you get to a point in your career, you have to transition. I don't know if I always tr I don't know if my transition was as seamless as what I'll say. That I had to learn to tap in. Rebecca Snyder: Well and I think it it like speaks to blind spots a little bit. Like you I mean you're a caring and like super kind individual and that comes across and you know how much you care about people and community and serving others. And so to have this like perspective that you check out after you've contributed on Saturday I did blah blah blah. Okay, check the box of social interaction. Now let's move on to the agenda. Like that can that's a blind spot that, you know, your your like your prod productivity value is coming more to the forefront at that point. And it's so hard to know what your blind spot is in t spots. Donyel Bacon: Yes. Well, but I have to say, going back to Executive Alliance, so the one thing that I will say that I have absolutely loved is when we have our social hours and we're not really talking about work. It is it it it it helps me in that aspect because I know that I have to be engaged I have to engage. One, I just miss all the members. It's a time for us to get together, but it's just great to so it's really helping me to refocus to be a hundred percent involved in the conversation that's happening because we're not Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: solving anything at that moment. Because I know I'm a problem solver and I think that's what comes into place. So it looks like I'm checking out like to the next thing. But it really is because I think I've had to function that way. But every meeting we've had, it has been like, I can just focus on who's in front of me and what are they doing and how is it going? And it's just it's it's a wonderful, it's a wonderful thing to be able to have that piece. If you don't have it at work. Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. And that's a that's a it's a muscle memory. Well, and it is so much fun to just develop those relationships and know that, you know, you're working in a a world of accomplished women that all have something to contribute and ha all have something to receive. I think that's that's one Donyel Bacon: Yes. Absolutely. Rebecca Snyder: of the wonderful pieces. So as we wind up, and you know, we could talk literally for hours, but we'll have to come back again and do s do something else. But I wanted to ask you kind of as we wrap up, what your best advice for women in their careers is. Donyel Bacon: so I'm gonna say be authentic. And when I say that, meaning it is okay for women. So we the superwoman syndrome. We always wanna do everything. We gotta be the financer, we have to be the real estate person. You know, we have to be the mom, the dad, and everyone else, especially if your husband's away on travel, whatever. But I think that it is okay to ask for help. And I also think it's okay to know that it's okay that you don't have to do everything. It is okay to outsource if you need to, you know, have someone come clean your home. It's okay. I have a girlfriend who absolutely refuses to do that, but her she is drowning, and she refuses to tell her husband that she's drowning because she's trying to take care of her kids and she's working. And I'm like, no, you just need to outsource. And it sometimes people may not be able to do that, but I think it's a part of the conversation. So the advice I would give is is I'm really to focus on women and their careers, is be authentic. yourself it is okay to say that you need support you need help because I know for me for the longest time I would never say that I'm gonna if I have to be up 18 hours to get something done you will never see me sweat and so Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: but there comes the cost to that I don't know if you ever read the body your your your what is it called your body keep score over Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Donyel Bacon: time that level of stress is just not healthy and where does it land us as women right I mean, you you get to a little older in life and you can't function the same and then you hit this wall. So it's really about taking care of yourself. But you have to, and I I would I would have tried to give you something else, Rebecca, but I think right now where we are, and we are really in an interesting position as women. We've made some progress, but there's so much more that we can do. But it's really about one, supporting each other and two, navigating the resources we have so that we can be the Mm. Rebecca Snyder: I love that. Danielle, thank you so much. It is always such a delight to talk to you. thank you for spending time. Donyel Bacon: It is always great talking with you. Thank you