Latest / Honey Badger Radio / What does that research really say? | HBR Talk 266

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What does that research really say? | HBR Talk 266 · Honey Badger Radio

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  Hello, and welcome to HBr Talk to sixty six. What does that research
• 0:06
  really say? I'm your host Hannah Whalen here with in Cell Project creator Nomicates,
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  Nonsense annihilator Lauren Brooks, and the personification of perceptivity Mike Stevenson to get
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  a look at some of the research that this this writer kind of bastardized or
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  ignored that we talked about last week. You can see I'm sort of down
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  at the bottom of our article, and I actually think my page jumped a
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  little bit, But there we go. The writer cited three sources. We
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  were talking about that before the show, So we'll have a little bit more
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  about the three sources that the writer cited, and then some more more reliable
• 0:52
  information on top of that as we get into the discussion. But as always,
• 0:58
  first we gotta do what we gotta do. So remember, Honey Badger
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  and the dropdown menu at the top of the page. So there you go.
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  We last week we were looking through this article and like there was,
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  there was, she had some things, like there were some things that the
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  writer got and then just went off the deep end with ben cells are dangerous
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  and the research says so, and there's a syndrome, and there's no syndrome.
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  So here we are the three sources cited. Like no one was telling
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  me in the like little bit of discussion we had before the show that these
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  are all what we were talking about last week, where instead of doing more
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  research and doing credible research, these particularly feminists, but a lot of modern
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  social sciences, like politically motivated researchers, will make up standards that don't exist,
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  make up methodology that isn't valid, and then use that to get data
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  that really doesn't mean anything, and then they'll cite that as if it's credible
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  in later papers, and then they'll cite those papers in later research and bury
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  everything between layers of self citation and nepotistic citation between people in the same department
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  or people with the same ideology, and suddenly you have this stuff that looks
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  really credible because it's criminal justice research from Michigan State University or um that it's
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  that is done by the government, because the the I the nis VS is
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  not immune to that. It goes back to Mary P. Costs in her
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  crap research. And so this is the same kind of thing. These are
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  all papers that just kind of regurgitate what researchers that did that came up with.
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  Is that that a pretty correct assessment there? Yeah, um, it
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  is. It definitely is like you kind of covered a lot of ground with
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  that in terms of the fact that so in this case, the three references
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  are all and you know, I kind of I didn't look very carefully last
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  time, and I kind of mistook, um, this this author kis on
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  referring to a study that has you know, one hundred and seventy two respondents
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  or six hundred and fifty respondents, right, So I'm familiar with all those
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  studies. I was involved with that one with the two hundred and seventy two
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  respondents as well as others. So I thought they were going to be listing
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  that as a reference. Yeah, one of their right and then you were
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  saying, well, no, that person's name isn't here. This is Boyd
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  and this is Thompson. And I was like, oh, Thomas, he
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  was involved. He wouldn't have been a first author, but he would have
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  been involved. And you were like, no, you know Thomson or whatever
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  it was. And yes, and I see that. What these are our
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  three separate sources that are basically literature reviews, and they they take, they
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  compile, as you said, previous studies, you know, well designed or
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  otherwise well intentioned, or otherwise correctly sanely analyzed or otherwise that have been published,
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  and they, you know, they do sort of in aalysis of these
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  studies and others to date with their own whatever they do. And the problem
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  is that this is of the field of countering violent extremism at least, so
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  you know, in this particular field, whether you want to say that it's
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  politically motivated or not, that's what's being done. Like only you know,
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  the most cited articles in this field only Liken's I think ten of the top
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  fifty are articles that do any new research, that have any new data.
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  The rest of them are just these They take the previous studies and that's what
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  they do. So the third one specard Um. Sorry, I have a
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  daughter here who's it's give me for something. Um. The third one speed
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  is the one that I was involved with, and that's the one that has
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  the two hundred and seventy two respondents and the other two one they list the
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  number of responses they are with either that study or a couple others that might
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  have been done a while ago, one of which didn't even pull anybody.
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  It just took quote unquote respondence from an existing forum, from you know,
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  content that was already online on the forum. So there's no oversight as to
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  how the poll was designed. There's no you know, most studies now that
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  use surveys, and a lot of them do, they have at least they
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  can't completely always get around this, but they have some safeguards, you know,
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  to make sure that there's some amount of accounting for you know, false
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  people that are trolling, that are living nonsense responses, people that are being
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  deceptive. There's at least an attempt at some of that. They use things
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  like Likert scales and you know, these predesigned kind of sales to measure attitudes
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  and things like that. So those are far from perfect, and they're also
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  all self reports most of the time, but at least that's something there's some
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  attempt at being you know, rigorous there. If you're just taking a forum
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  and taking like chatter that exists on a forum and determining attitudes and things based
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  on some analysis of that, there's none of that at all. You know.
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  It's like, and these forums are notorious for having ship posting, trolling,
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  any other number of their own kind of culture that people aren't really looking
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  at with any understanding, So you know, that's a big problem. And
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  then just the fact that these are, like you said, they start to
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  become like there's a lot of self referential sort of citations in them. They're
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  like going back and citing a study that maybe someone in the department was involved
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  with, or that's just kind of something popular to cite. And it does
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  become very political. And even if we take like the agenda, let's say,
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  the feminist agenda out of it, though to be sure, there is
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  that, but even if we take that out of it, there's a pressure
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  to publish. Academics, you know, who are professors or are candidates for
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  some kind of graduate degree have a lot of pressure to be involved with publishing
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  a lot, like the more you publish, the better you're perceived. Then
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  the university considers you as contributing something worthwhile, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera,
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  and you can kind of make a name for yourself. So there's a lot
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  of pressure to to publish something like doctoral candidates have to do it. You
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  know, they have a dispication and so you kind of get the McDonald's effect.
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  The more of it, the more of that writing that you have to
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  produce, and the faster you have to produce it. The less you're checking
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  your sources, the less you're checking your methods, and the basically the less
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  mindful you're being of how accurate and relevant and valid what you're publishing actually is.
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  Yes, and in order to be published, because that's also the peer
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  review process is to some extent a political process. You know, you're less
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  likely to say something that would be challenged to the orthodoxy or something that's courageous,
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  or something that's going to be unpopular because you're afraid that that might not
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  be that might not make it through the process. Right there, they're turning
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  researchers into chet GPT. Yeah it will, and that that hoaps a while
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  back. I can't remember what was called. Um, Yeah, that pretty
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  much demonstrated yeah, Pluck Rosen and the others that yes, yeah, and
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  that that pretty much showed that, you know, being published doesn't necessarily mean
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  that the work is credible either. So like a lot of people rely on
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  well this has been published by this source or this this um like you used
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  to be able to look at you know, well, the New England Journal
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  of Medicine published this. It's it's definitely reliable, or you know, there's
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  a dozen other sources that you know, you'd be like, well this is
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  this is profoundly reliable because this particular source, and then you discover that no,
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  actually there's quite a bit of nepotism, and quite a bit of political
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  I would call a political nepotism. You say what I believe already it must
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  be correct. I'm not going to be tough on your methods. You say
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  what I don't believe already. I'm going to be tough as hell on your
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  methods, and you're probably not getting UM published. And Jin Bottle says it's
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  Lindsay Borgesian Burgosian, and yeah, that's right, that's that's the reason I've
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  started following Lindsay on Twitter like I was already following Helen pluck Rose. Although
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  we did have a um disagreement about UM. I think intactivism UM because she's
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  a little more gynocentric on it than I am. Um, well, anybody
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  that's at all gynocentric on it is more gynocentric than I am. I'm pretty
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  much egalitarian on that. I don't think anybody should get cut before they're an
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  adult, unless you know there's a really solid medical reason for that, um,
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  because just just you know, bodily autonomy, and also the skin is
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  the biggest organ in your immune system, so don't image it in an infant
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  if you can help it. Like that's just you know, I have all
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  my reasons like I could. I've I have actually done whole shows on um
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  intactivism because of those issues and in particular the the germ issue. UM.
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  But but like I've like the feminists that are in uh that we're involved in
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  game or game UM, we didn't get along on that. Like that wasn't
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  just her, that was all of the feminists for the most part that were
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  involved in Gamergate. UM. Like there's there's a divide there no it's more
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  important if it's happening to girls. It's like, no, no, it's
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  babies or babies. They don't care what gender they are. They care if
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  they're in pain. But in any case, I've had to give much thought
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  because I don't have a son. But if I do, If I did,
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  I probably would would agree with you on there. If I had to
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  give it much more. Yeah, I think, well, knowing you,
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  you'd you'd be looking into all of the information you could find about it and
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  then evaluating the research. That's that's kind of what I did. I looked
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  at the research and I'm like, this is this is crab um. So
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  there was a lot of um. We did the research that made the call
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  the HIV claim attributed the benefit of condoms as a benefit of circumcision, and
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  it was just that blew my mind when I saw that. I'm like,
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  how do people not catch this? Because they didn't They didn't look at it.
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  So is going off topic, But I'm curious what link was there between?
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  So I'm so what they basically did was they they used they did a
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  study between men who agreed to get circumcised and men who did not agree to
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  get circumcised. In in Sub Saharan Africa. But when they circumcised them in
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  they also had them abstained from sex for a certain period of time while they
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  were healing. And then they also gave them condoms and information about HIV prevention
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  using barrier methods and stuff like that, and they put if there was a
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  correlation between the circumcision and not getting it without looking at Yeah, they didn't
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  control for the condoms. They didn't control for and they measured during the time
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  period when those men were not having sex. They didn't tell the other men
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  not to also have also not to have sex. It was so bad.
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  I mean, But but I think I think the thing that astounds me the
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  most about this and this, this has something to say about the the power
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  and the influence that the scientific community has on the rest of society. Right
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  because there are people who legitimately believe that circumcision prevents you from having some from
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  getting diseases. Yeah, that's cutting off some of the skin on your deck
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  prevents you from being susceptible to a disease. That That is the least sensible
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  thing I've ever heard anybody say. And but but like I mean, the
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  thing is that you know they are they're a basing this this this I guess,
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  you know, prognosis based off of you know, adult men that were
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  tested and you know a probed and prodded in fucking subsharent Africa. Um,
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  but the results of that are being used on newborn infants. Yeah right,
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  It's yeah, absurd, But I think you're right though, Lauren, I
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  think that as ridiculous as it sounds, I was going to say this before
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  when we talk about the some of the publication bias issues and like that,
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  there's all kinds of incentives et cetera, et cetera. At the same time,
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  I also think that while all those things exist, there is also a
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  confirmation bias, because this is a crowd of people in a community in Orthodoxy
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  hearing the same things over and over again to where they also believe themselves even
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  about this preposterous issue, right right. And also to introduce the idea that
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  also we know that people scientists get paid for they don't want to lose their
• 16:52
  funding, right, so you you cannot you won't get published if you go
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  against someone who has a different narrative that they want to spind you get pay
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  for the results. You're backer wants exactly if you if you're backed by somebody
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  with a political agenda, so it's like it's like a guillotine continually swinging over
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  your head. I mean that's how I would feel. If you know,
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  you're working for like a pharmaceutical company or some kind of profit situation, then
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  yes, or you're getting some kind of government or state funding. Absolutely,
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  if you're working for a university, it's not that direct, it's not that
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  explicit because you you know, arguably you're probably a tenure professor or something,
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  and you just yeah, yeah, where there's exactly there's more flexibility. But
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  sometimes I think the political pressures in those environments are great enough to you know,
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  be pretty pretty strong incentence or disincentives even if you're you know, finds
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  are theoretically secure. And that that kind of goes back to what we're looking
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  at here too, because you know, different um perspectives on the research can
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  can affect how the researchers act, Like if you're looking at this from a
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  criminal justice perspective and a perspective that is influenced by feminist narratives on in cells,
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  because the big narrative on in cells that that they're dangerous and that they're
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  UM an overt threat to society and that shootings are like happening left and right
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  and blah blah blah. That does come from more feminist sources and more like
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  I guess I would go back to progressive sources, even though it's not particularly
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  a progressive UM outlook. It is more of a if it allows for UM
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  advocacy for gun control, advocacy for control over people's individual behavior and stuff,
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  that then they're going to promote this stuff. And it does act if you're
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  researching from within that sort of spectrum of thought, you're you're gonna be if
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  you have confirmation bias, it's going to be in that direction. Yes,
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  most likely. Yeah, And like you said, it's not it's not literally
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  progressive at all, but it's quote unquote progressive. It's in the aggressive ideology.
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  It doesn't come from a criminal justice perspective. And a lot of people
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  are especially within the insall community, are surprised to hear me say that and
• 19:30
  to hear me continue to say that, because it looks like there's a lot
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  of you know, material and stuff coming out of law enforcement about the threat
• 19:41
  of insulls. But I know, for a fact that law enforcement, the
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  attitudes from law enforcement and people in intelligence and security have never been concerned particularly
• 19:52
  about in cells like they coming from pressure from outside, from media and from
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  advocacy groups. It's it's a lot like the research on sexual violence, and
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  people think of it as coming out of law enforcement, but actually, would
• 20:07
  you say it's being more thrown at law enforcement. You guys have to look
• 20:11
  at this, this is what you're supposed to think. Yeah, I mean
• 20:15
  the case that this opens with about the Plymouth shooting Jake Davison, Like there
• 20:18
  was literally a ruling made the day had happened from kind of terrorism police in
• 20:26
  the UK that we don't believe there's any connections terrorism or anything like that.
• 20:30
  This looks like a domestic incident, right, That's what they said immediately.
• 20:34
  Then there was so much pressure from media sources who found all the insult stuff
• 20:40
  and started like pushing that and people in the community to not write it off.
• 20:45
  Like there were headlines literally being like WEDT, we're not doing enough and
• 20:48
  we need to start taking it seriously. And so they went back in and
• 20:52
  did like a full investigation. Again, Like I know I've said this a
• 20:57
  million times, but I just think it bears repeating that like this was like
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  police had an idea. They looked at the situation, they had the experience.
• 21:06
  They said, no, that's not what this is. The public said,
• 21:07
  yes it is, and you better do something about it. So they
• 21:11
  went back in and spent all this time looking at it, and then they
• 21:14
  still came out and said no, yea, yeah, well and didn't.
• 21:18
  Alec Menassian kind of came come out and say, hey, you know,
• 21:21
  I said all this stuff, but it was for attention, it was for
• 21:26
  fame, and it actually didn't have anything to do with him. Well,
• 21:30
  yeah, he absolutely did. I saw his interrogation footage when they lifted the
• 21:34
  publication band on that, and it was obvious he was lying, said he
• 21:38
  knew Elliot Roger and he was in communication with them, and he was planning
• 21:41
  all this. It just wasn't possible. It didn't that up. It didn't
• 21:44
  make sense. And then over the course of trial, you know, when
• 21:48
  you looked at his history and statements from his people that knew him and everything,
• 21:52
  and from him, not from I don't think he testified, but from
• 21:56
  um, his counsel and everything, it was like clear that he'd had like
• 22:00
  the downward spiral kind of trajectory, and he'd been fascinated with mass shooters from
• 22:06
  when he was ten years old and all the stuff that like predated any of
• 22:08
  the in cell stuff. And the judge herself was the one who said,
• 22:12
  you know, I think that he made this statement just to ratchet up his
• 22:18
  notoriety and I'm not going to consider it in a sentence, which is huge.
• 22:22
  You know, Yeah, that Fred definitely discredits the claims that he is
• 22:30
  undeniably you know, this guy was an insull and he did this because he
• 22:33
  was an insell, which is what it gets repeated over and over again,
• 22:37
  I think in a huge amount of the writing on this topic, especially if
• 22:41
  they're emphasizing yes, every violence piece thing on one always starts with like Elliot
• 22:48
  Roger and then Alex Nascian, and more recently they've also all included Jake Davison.
• 22:52
  Ye, when one, four, three those are arguably like not really
• 22:56
  even incredibly associated within so um this of the three you said, the involuntary
• 23:06
  celibate's experience of and grievance over sexual exclusion one, that is that the one
• 23:11
  that was actually at least discussing the studies that you were involved in or was
• 23:17
  it it's the second it's this is the third link that this one was Yeah,
• 23:25
  specard Okay. I was actually involved with that one, and there's a
• 23:30
  bit of story to that. UM. That particular report, I didn't want
• 23:36
  to be included on the final report because of the way it came out,
• 23:40
  which is another issue with these studies. A lot of the time, you
• 23:42
  can take data and the same collection of data from two hundred and seventy two
• 23:48
  people and do a linear regression analysis on the scales and everything, and just
• 23:55
  depending on the way you were things and the way you present them and like
• 23:59
  how what you can flud in your introduction about the topic, it can come
• 24:03
  out very differently, and the conclusions can be you can write a conclusion that
• 24:07
  has all the same data and still present it in a way where it almost
• 24:12
  seems like an entirely different study. So there's that too. So it's it's
• 24:19
  not necessarily all about the data. It's about how it's interpreted and what conclusions
• 24:25
  are drawn from it, which which makes sense that that was an issue.
• 24:32
  I'm going to go back to sexual violence research again because I've looked at a
• 24:36
  lot of that. UM. I can't think of his name leisk Let's acum.
• 24:41
  He made a claim back in the eighties based on research that he did,
• 24:47
  that there was a an epidemic of serial rape going on on college campuses.
• 24:55
  But when you looked at the study, the study didn't find that.
• 24:59
  It was done mostly on men who were not even in college, and some
• 25:03
  of them were x and inmates and everything. And what it did indicate is
• 25:10
  that among men who have been convicted of or admitted to sexual violence, the
• 25:18
  overwhelming majority of sexual violence is committed by like four to six percent of the
• 25:25
  men involved. Um, it's really or four percent or four to six percent
• 25:30
  of the population, Like of of the male perpetrated, it's four percent,
• 25:36
  four to six percent of the male population. And they're otherwise also violent like
• 25:41
  they do other violent crimes and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, well
• 25:45
  it would make sense because if you think about it, you know, when
• 25:49
  you when you consider what people normally want. Um, and I hate to
• 25:56
  use word normal, but this is pretty much like not just a social norm
• 26:00
  but a psychological norm. What people normally want when they want sex is they
• 26:06
  want a partner who wants them, and like rape is the antithesis of that.
• 26:11
  Right, nobody wants to be raped. That's why it's rape. And
• 26:15
  so if you have somebody who does that on purpose, puts themselves in a
• 26:19
  position where they are attacking someone and getting rejected over and over again, and
• 26:26
  they're getting off on that, there is something wrong with that person, male
• 26:30
  or female. And it's very right, very small percentage and a very violent
• 26:33
  percentage of the population. And you know the other the other small percentage of
• 26:40
  that was one time perpetrators. And that's in an environment where we have blurred
• 26:47
  the lines between where we used to define rape as as measures taken to contravene
• 26:53
  somebody's refusal and now it's like, you can be a rapist if you're a
• 26:59
  claude who fails to get consent and thought you got consent when the other person
• 27:06
  was reticent and just didn't tell you. So it's a it's a broader spectrum,
• 27:11
  rightly, different type of person, a completely different type of situation.
• 27:18
  That's somebody who wanted to hurt someone else. And we can't like conflate those
• 27:22
  two things. I mean, if you're talking about rates that actually occur on
• 27:27
  college campuses, again, like yeah, you have your handful of real criminality.
• 27:34
  That's not going to be super likely on a college campus. I don't
• 27:37
  think these people that are attending college university, but yeah, once in a
• 27:42
  while, and then the rest is going to be some kind of like contextual
• 27:47
  misunderstanding and maybe some cultural norms that need to be looked at, or you
• 27:52
  know, it's it's right that like we tightened things up about like understanding consent
• 27:57
  better and all of that so that those things don't happen where people feel miserable
• 28:02
  after their sexual experiences, because that's not good, right, that either the
• 28:06
  man or the woman or whoever is involved in it. But yeah, that's
• 28:10
  not a rapist. That's not the same thing exactly. And so you're where
• 28:14
  we're looking at, Like the way this research was interpreted is very targeted sort
• 28:21
  of politically, and and it turns out that the data didn't back what he
• 28:25
  said. The way that he described it and discussed it was not very credible
• 28:29
  and everything. And I look at that, and I look at some of
• 28:30
  these other types of research on insuls in it, and I look at you
• 28:33
  know, while we looked at what they said in the forums, Okay,
• 28:37
  well, did you confirm with the individual that they were not trolling? Did
• 28:41
  you confirm with the individual that that was not sarcasm, because people mistake sarcasm
• 28:47
  on the internet all the time. Did you confirm with the individual that that
• 28:51
  was not just a figure of speech rather than a full on, intended literal
• 28:56
  statement, because you know, like I tell people sometimes when they're um,
• 29:06
  when they've said something I think is utterly ridiculous, I'll be like, you're
• 29:08
  killing me, this is this is stupid. Come on, Well, I
• 29:11
  don't necessarily mean that I'm literally dying. I'm not accusing them of violence.
• 29:18
  But if I say it online, somebody could take it literally. If they
• 29:21
  didn't speak English, where they didn't know um euphemisms and figures of speech and
• 29:26
  stuff like that, they might actually, oh, my gosh, you know
• 29:29
  this this woman is so fragile, um like she's being killed by words on
• 29:34
  the internet, like a feminist. But when you go into an insull forum
• 29:42
  and you look at some of the things they say, you know, it's
• 29:45
  obvious that some things, you know, they're they're expressing very real pain,
• 29:49
  and sometimes they're doing what everybody does when they're trying to deal with very real
• 29:53
  pain. They're engaging in sarcasm, they're using euphemisms, to describe things that
• 29:59
  are hard to say a um or or less fun to say overtly and bluntly,
• 30:04
  you know. And and and they're trolling each other and trying to make
• 30:08
  each other laugh, and you have to laugh in a dark situation or you
• 30:15
  lose your mind. And yeah, you know. And it's it's the same
• 30:19
  objection I see to um humor around rape, Like I will make fun of
• 30:27
  the mentality of a rapist, even though I know that's a very I will
• 30:33
  call it a handicapped mentality. But it's also it's a handicap that an adult
• 30:38
  can consciously say, you know what, this is a screw up. This
• 30:41
  is there's something wrong with me. If I feel this way, I need
• 30:45
  to get help. And if you choose to engage in crime instead of getting
• 30:48
  help, that's on you as an adult. Uh So, you're a you're
• 30:52
  a fair target for me to make fun of and that and to me,
• 31:00
  that's a that's a recovery thing. Right. You make fun of the person
• 31:03
  that hurt you, Yeah, you know, and it helps you make them
• 31:07
  less scary. You make fun of the monster under the bed, right,
• 31:11
  look at those googly eyes. That's just what a silly looking creature, you
• 31:14
  know, UM, And and that helps not he helps you to not be
• 31:18
  afraid of the monster under the bed. And then if you have to fight
• 31:21
  the monster under the bed, you can because you're not paralyzed. And if
• 31:25
  you you know, don't if the monster under the bed turns out to not
• 31:29
  be real or to already be gone, you know, like in the past,
• 31:34
  then it helps you to deal with well, gosh, that monster was
• 31:37
  hilarious. I don't have to deal with that anymore, right, Um.
• 31:41
  Same thing with was humor about rape, and I think, um, people
• 31:45
  don't handle that very well if they don't have that tendency to recover through dark
• 31:52
  humor and stuff like that. So you go into a forum where people have
• 31:56
  experienced bullying, people have experienced social exclusion, people have been um, sexually
• 32:04
  assaulted, because that's that's the other thing like I've I've met, um,
• 32:09
  probably a far smaller number of insults online than you have, but rather a
• 32:15
  large number of them seem to have been victimized as children. Yeah, yeah,
• 32:20
  there's there's I mean, I would say I've talked to like a handful
• 32:23
  half a dozen that have spoke about that explicitly. UM. But it's not
• 32:31
  even within that community where people speak rather openly about difficult with a lot of
• 32:38
  shame. Even there, it's just not because of because of a lot of
• 32:42
  the joking and because of a lot of you know, there's like a wide
• 32:45
  spectrum just range severity the issues on there, you know, and how people
• 32:52
  want to cope. So it's still a hard, hard thing to talk about
• 32:55
  too for a lot of people. Most people, Yeah, it's the tone
• 33:00
  of required and also because it is it is a male space, and men
• 33:06
  deal with thinks the way men deal with things, and it's not usually like
• 33:10
  sitting around unless they like there's a place where this is like something that they're
• 33:15
  you know, we're prescribed to do this, and then it can be very
• 33:20
  healing. I think men length more likely do it, you know, one
• 33:23
  on one setting than like some kind of form, and most people would really,
• 33:27
  but men especially maybe Yeah, And I think, um, well,
• 33:31
  part of it is it's just you don't want to admit to a vulnerability in
• 33:37
  front of other people that you don't know very well. And it's you don't
• 33:40
  make your friendship necessarily about your vulnerabilities. You make your friendship about supporting each
• 33:45
  other and through your strengths and sort of you support each other in spite of
• 33:54
  your vulnerabilities by supporting through your strength. So you kind of want to show
• 33:59
  you each other your strengths. And a lot of times in any Internet forum,
• 34:06
  the biggest display is strength of mind, and a lot of people seem
• 34:13
  to fear a loss of others perception of their strength of mind if they admit
• 34:17
  to being having been vulnerable to victimization or having been victimized as a child in
• 34:22
  ways that can change you for the rest of your life. But it does
• 34:28
  have it also makes it awkward. It makes it difficult for you to talk
• 34:31
  about yourself in a lot of ways too. So is yeah, And paradoxically
• 34:37
  what you said is true of the insult forms too. Even though from the
• 34:43
  outside it looks like these are people who are who are bonding through their weaknesses
• 34:49
  or over their weaknesses, over their shared sort of trauma and negative experiences.
• 34:52
  Like yes, in a way, they are, but only in a certain
• 34:54
  way, like it's still about sort of toughness. There's still sort of like
• 35:00
  botto and the humor. You know, it's not going to like a support
• 35:05
  group. That's not the that's not the environment, and it makes the quote
• 35:08
  lifting research really kind of dumb if you think about it, because you're not
• 35:15
  getting the whole picture of this person based on what they discussed in a forum
• 35:19
  at all, Like you're getting a tiny little bit of the picture. You're
• 35:22
  not sure if what you're seeing is valid, you're not sure if what you're
• 35:24
  seeing is up front, and you're not sure if you're taking it if taking
• 35:31
  it at face value is the right way to take it. And then at
• 35:35
  the same time, you're also you should be sure that where you're seeing is
• 35:39
  a very tiny part of the picture, where if the individual that's posting that
• 35:45
  there is a much bigger picture around that that you're missing out on, because
• 35:47
  that part of the picture isn't on the internet, right and so certainly not
• 35:53
  in this place. On this account, this is like a part of someone's
• 35:58
  identity, you know of, and like you can kind of like the shadow
• 36:01
  or something too. And for people that study psychology and mental health, they
• 36:06
  should be aware of that and the importance of having like space for that and
• 36:10
  making space for that for someone who's struggling with things, right, So I
• 36:15
  can understand why you wouldn't want to have been involved in that um that kind
• 36:20
  of superficial like I would I would say that's really shallow to call it research.
• 36:28
  It's it's it's sort of pseudo research to do that kind of um web
• 36:34
  crawling and then say that means you know things about this group of people that
• 36:38
  you can defenditively say involved it all in any of the web crawling stuff.
• 36:44
  But like the the record one that was better than it was around at the
• 36:49
  time because it was at least a pull. It was just the way they
• 36:51
  interpreted that I didn't love. Right, What are some of the things that
• 36:53
  that you noted in the research that you were involved in that you think should
• 36:57
  be gotten across that this like this writer really screwed up. So even present
• 37:02
  in the specard length that they have here as well as the others, the
• 37:08
  newer ones, the better ones that I've linked, but Costello on the one
• 37:13
  from last year and the one that's going to be coming in a few months,
• 37:15
  I'm sure, And let me see if I can get that one up.
• 37:21
  The first of the two links, the first is a link to the
• 37:24
  one that should already be out, that was published I think in July last
• 37:29
  year. Okay, so I'll try to open that up while you're talking about
• 37:32
  sort of some of the things that you feel should have been gotten across that
• 37:36
  really weren't. So I think one of the most important things, and this
• 37:42
  one actually is remarkably This is I think one of the biggest findings from the
• 37:47
  speccard one which is referenced in the stupid piece, is the autism spectrum disorder,
• 37:54
  the prevalence of that because it was eighteen percent, you know, as
• 37:59
  it's UM diagnosed. All right, I'll look me around here, UM eighteen
• 38:09
  diagnosed on spectrum and another twenty something who believes that they have it. And
• 38:15
  people answered this pole pretty earnestly. They're pretty honest on that forum. There's
• 38:21
  a lot of trust there, so I would trust that they're being honest about
• 38:23
  that. And you know, if someone I think, if someone suspects that
• 38:28
  they're on the spectrum, there's probably something to that. UM. You know,
• 38:32
  why would they lie about it in an anonymous pole? UM, So
• 38:37
  that you know, forty percent for a community with that high high sample size
• 38:43
  close to three hundred, you know, that's usually giving you pretty good information.
• 38:46
  That's really important. So when people talk about in cells being misogynistic,
• 38:52
  being extremists, being creepy, etcetera, etcetera. Like if you consider that
• 38:57
  of them might be on the spectrum, that's really important, and the fact
• 39:00
  that that wasn't mentioned in this or at least it wasn't emphasized in this piece,
• 39:06
  is important. Then they talk about the mental health again as if it's
• 39:12
  causal, like as if having in cell complex makes somebody depressed or leads to
• 39:19
  depression, as opposed to looking at it as like these are people who might
• 39:24
  have certain circumstances in life that would naturally contribute to some depression, or they
• 39:32
  might have depression, you know, they might it might be that like like
• 39:37
  it's chicken or the egg, it doesn't really matter, but they are depressed
• 39:43
  or they have anxiety, and that is something that's either contributing to their situation
• 39:49
  or you know, their situation is contributing to it. And maybe it doesn't
• 39:53
  always really matter when we look at in cells like this isn't necessarily something that's
• 40:00
  unique to installs. You know, this is loneliness, right, and like
• 40:06
  we need to learn how to deal with loneliness. And then I think one
• 40:10
  of the findings they discussed is about how fifty percent of them tried mental health
• 40:16
  or they they phrased it in this piece that like fifty percent of them never
• 40:21
  even tried any kind of mental health interventions, where I look at it the
• 40:27
  other way around, like fifty percent did try. That's really high. I
• 40:30
  think, yeah, that's well, it's way higher than most of the you
• 40:32
  know, like the regular population. You see a lot of people with anxiety
• 40:37
  issues. You see a lot of people with excuse me other u other mental
• 40:43
  health conditions that they could seek help with that they don't. There's a lot
• 40:46
  of dysfunction people could um gain assistance and ceasing all kinds of UM, unhealthy
• 40:54
  behaviors, weight gain, smoking, um and you know, unhealthy aiding behaviors
• 41:00
  and so on, that they don't because it doesn't crash their life, or
• 41:06
  it doesn't put them in a situation where other people look at them as if
• 41:10
  their life has been kind of crashed, right, or otherwise put them in
• 41:16
  a situation where people treat them as if their circumstances, their behavior, their
• 41:22
  presentation, whatever is outside of the social norms. But in cells are in
• 41:29
  that position, so you see more expectation of them to get help, when
• 41:36
  in fact they might be. The regular population may have as many people that
• 41:39
  are just as in need of help that are sort of quietly drowning in debt
• 41:45
  or destroying their lives with bad habits, gambling, things like that, and
• 41:51
  they don't get help till it's an emergency. So it's kind of all reasonable
• 41:54
  for people to look at the in cell population and say, well, you
• 41:57
  know, they're not getting the help they need because they're not seeking it.
• 42:01
  Nobody does that. Nobody does that. No, And these are also young
• 42:07
  people relatively like you're talking about like a median age in the mid twenties,
• 42:14
  probably in like an average in the early twenties even or maybe mid twenties,
• 42:16
  I don't know, but these are relatively young men. You know, most
• 42:22
  young men that age aren't seeking out, you know, just because they don't
• 42:29
  usually get to that. I mean, it depends where, right, But
• 42:31
  like, for the most part, I'm not surprised at all that, like
• 42:36
  a lot of people of that age aren't necessarily getting themselves to some kind of
• 42:42
  therapy. Also, these aren't even though I'd say the distribution and the studies
• 42:49
  did look at this, like where they they lived, you know, what
• 42:52
  parts of the world and everything, um, it is all over the world.
• 42:55
  That's another kind of misconception about it, like it's mostly North America and
• 43:01
  northern or western Europe, partly because these are wealthier countries, there's more access
• 43:07
  to the Internet and like English speaking, right, which is the language of
• 43:12
  the Internet, so it makes sense. But it is all over the world,
• 43:15
  like there are I've had insults from every continent on the show. It
• 43:19
  gets exploited in some places like well, you're not married, you're not you
• 43:23
  know, involved in a family, you're not contributing to the welfare of a
• 43:29
  woman, you're not contributing to the welfare of any children. Join our military,
• 43:34
  that's where you should be, you know. And it could be the
• 43:37
  military of a country, it could be the military of a terrorist organization.
• 43:43
  Um they're getting you know, well, we'll have a better life for you,
• 43:46
  come with us, and then they get enslaved, um, you know,
• 43:51
  like for labor, slave labor, and there's there's quite a bit of
• 43:57
  um human trafficking of young men who are looking to improve their prospects and then
• 44:04
  they get scammed and then they end up in a situation where they are they're
• 44:07
  literally enslaved for hard labor in foreign countries to in comparison to where they grew
• 44:15
  up yep, or for first off, on a kind of more benign version
• 44:21
  of that. I've had a couple in sales recently on the show who are
• 44:23
  from you know, South Asia, India or something and went of their own
• 44:29
  volition freely, no enslavement happening, nothing like that, but like moved to
• 44:32
  Western Europe for some time in an attempt to like improve their lives because they
• 44:37
  didn't find any kind of comment at home because they didn't have and relationships and
• 44:43
  didn't end up in any kind of you know, trafficking m but just in
• 44:47
  a really miserable, unfilling sort of like low wage slaving. The promises they
• 44:53
  were looking into didn't pan out, yeah at all. Yeah. And there
• 44:59
  can be also situations where like I just um tweeted out a video yesterday.
• 45:07
  I think, um, it's been along. I had a long shift last
• 45:12
  night, so like it's hard not to think of the last day as two
• 45:15
  days. Any anybody that that has a habit of working double shifts knows what
• 45:20
  I mean. Um, but I'm pretty sure it was yesterday morning of a
• 45:27
  young man who you would categorize him as an in cell not in that he
• 45:32
  gets involved in in cell forums and anything like that, and talks to anybody
• 45:37
  about it. But he doesn't have His only relationship was with gypsies that tricked
• 45:45
  him into debt, you know, to them, basically transferred debt he already
• 45:52
  had to them, and then he lived with them and he worked for them
• 45:55
  and was essentially enslaved, and organization went in and bought his freedom and paid
• 46:02
  off his debts and everything. This was a guy whose mother was an alcoholic,
• 46:07
  who had injuries from from childhood. Because his mother was an alcoholic,
• 46:13
  he wasn't necessarily conventionally attractive or unattractive, but he had health conditions that would
• 46:22
  make a guy conventionally unattractive, and so he would be. He was in
• 46:28
  a situation where he probably has never had anybody treat him as a relationship prospect.
• 46:36
  Yeah, And like you look at a lot of people's situations. People
• 46:39
  think of in cells as the the emo kid that grew up in an American
• 46:46
  or you know, UK high school or Canadian high school and was always socially
• 46:51
  awkward and got picked on by the other kids and you know, mistreating everything.
• 46:55
  Most of the ones that have met are not that stereotype at all.
• 47:00
  They have a completely different situation, whether they you know, we're like that
• 47:07
  or not. Um, very different situation, right, and the ones they
• 47:12
  do fit that, like why are they why is this like a stereotype that
• 47:15
  we're comfortable maligning, like it is spectrum or you know, it does not
• 47:21
  get out of the house much and comes from like a western country. There's
• 47:25
  It was interesting because a few of these studies, maybe not the Specard one,
• 47:30
  but some of the ones that's been involved with Chicano give the link later
• 47:35
  looked at there like the socioeconomic um distribution and everything too, and it was
• 47:39
  like pretty much across the board like a normal distribution. A lot of the
• 47:46
  things were um, the ethnicities were uh like like white men were slightly under
• 47:54
  representatives consider the country where they were living and whether or not they were neat
• 48:01
  like than not in yeah, deployment yeah or training yep. That also like
• 48:10
  just slightly higher than like um a control group example. Um. That's one
• 48:16
  thing they looked at the the CASELO So again it looked at political leanings and
• 48:22
  it was like mostly political and then with like some little bit under twenty percent
• 48:28
  uh left and a little bit under twenty percent right, maybe even a little
• 48:31
  bit it was a little bit higher um, left leaning, I think,
• 48:34
  which was surprising talk about being right wing all the time. Yeah, and
• 48:40
  then you know, when it came to the the therapy thing, the way
• 48:44
  this piece framed it, it was like, you know, only fifty percent
• 48:49
  of them have tried, so many of them said it was useful. Put
• 48:55
  the we lost that last sentence. We're getting, um, some inner errands
• 49:00
  with a background noise that's cutting out your voice Okay, yeah, I was
• 49:07
  getting it with yours too a little bit. Is that better? Yeah?
• 49:09
  I'm wondering if was it me? Usually we don't pick up my air conditioner,
• 49:15
  but I'm just gonna turned off, So hopefully that gets rid of that.
• 49:19
  But was it maybe speaker noise maybe? Yeah? But yeah, Well,
• 49:25
  and the other thing I would want to point out in regard to finding
• 49:29
  therapy useful, that's another big issue and it's something we've talked about in the
• 49:32
  men's rights movement. A lot, a lot of therapy is designed around women's
• 49:37
  psychology, and men's psychology is different. And there's no denying that men think
• 49:44
  differently from women, they recover differently from women, they have different pathways to
• 49:47
  recovery than women do, and if you make them walk down women's paths,
• 49:52
  it's not going to be effective for them, and it may be detrimental if
• 49:57
  you're trying to force them to emote in a way that is not natural for
• 50:01
  them. And you know, and then the other thing is they're used to
• 50:06
  being judged for it instead of helped because they did it. And then on
• 50:12
  top of that, in addition to it not necessarily being normal and natural for
• 50:19
  men to just let go and show their vulnerability and tell everybody what they're thinking
• 50:23
  and feeling all the time like women do, you also have the feedback that
• 50:30
  they're getting from therapists, and like, if you describe your situation of isolation,
• 50:37
  social isolation and feeling rejected by women in general, or feeling dumped on
• 50:44
  by women in general, and the therapist comes back, well, that's your
• 50:46
  toxic, toxic masculinity talking you just hate women. Like that's not going to
• 50:52
  be effective either, because it doesn't help you build a connection with anybody.
• 50:59
  It doesn't help you figure out how to build a connection with anybody if there
• 51:02
  is something wrong with the way that you're thinking, Labeling it toxic puts you
• 51:07
  on your back foot instead of giving you advice. On how to grow.
• 51:13
  So there's a lot of stuff that's going on in psychology right now that's detrimental
• 51:16
  to helping men in general. And if you're trying to help men who are
• 51:22
  already feeling rejected, already feeling judged, already feeling looked down on, and
• 51:31
  already feeling like society is just throwing them away, and you say things like
• 51:37
  that to them, you're just reinforcing that outlook instead of helping them try to
• 51:43
  figure out pathways to connection and pathways to recovery. I mean that seems like
• 51:50
  if there's he's actually doing that to their patients, that would be I mean,
• 51:59
  that should be scandalous, Like that should be sort of the number one.
• 52:02
  One of the number one rules I would say of a therapy is you
• 52:07
  don't tell your client like, hey, that's toxic masculinity. But I wouldn't
• 52:13
  be surprised if there are some that do that. I know that in some
• 52:16
  of these like intervention programs that aren't trained therapists but that are coming out of
• 52:22
  more like the Countering Extremism World programs, they have like you know, gendered
• 52:30
  violence as one of these big topics, as you know, and right around
• 52:35
  after the Plymouth shooting, and somehow people were conflating this with Andrew Tate.
• 52:38
  I'll never really quite understand how they made that connection, but that was happening,
• 52:43
  and so I think Scotland it was decided to have like a little spot
• 52:46
  the Instell program that they would train features yeah, like that these might be
• 52:52
  signs that these young people are being radicalized. And now there's all these like
• 52:55
  quote unquote Instell experts going around telling people that like the right atalization can happen
• 53:00
  to all of us, and it just makes me sick. But like they
• 53:04
  have these programs where if they decide that somebody might be going down this path,
• 53:08
  they might seem them up with like some kind of a big brother or
• 53:12
  something mentor, which sounds great, like that's great. You seem someone who's
• 53:19
  a loner who might meet some support up with like a teer, like an
• 53:22
  older student. That sounds great, But then I looked at like what some
• 53:25
  of the you know, the issues would be that they would discuss with this
• 53:30
  person, and it was like, let's have discussions about like gender ideas,
• 53:35
  And it's like, what's like you really expect like a fourteen year old boy
• 53:40
  to have like a chat with like an older student about like gender roles and
• 53:46
  like this is how we're going to help somebody. It's just wacky, and
• 53:51
  like again, it's also implicitly saying like you're toxic, Like you know,
• 53:57
  your problem is toxic masculinity, and it's just crazy. It's not true,
• 54:00
  it doesn't help anyone. It is judgmental, it's nonsense, and just yeah,
• 54:07
  it's absolute bullshit. I don't have anything else to say about it.
• 54:10
  This is all a fabrication of feminism, Okay, I mean, the whole
• 54:19
  idea of an in cell only exists in the Western world. Well, it
• 54:24
  doesn't only exist in the Western world, right, there are in cells in
• 54:30
  the Eastern world or whatever. You're like, it's it spread to their because
• 54:36
  of Western media and just I mean, but naming and claiming there's an ideology
• 54:44
  built around it and stuff like that. That's a Western thing. That's a
• 54:47
  completely Western phenomenon, right, And it only exists because of feminism, because
• 54:54
  the idea of feminism is to destroy everything that I mean is and anything that
• 55:00
  defines him. And so just like we're talking about, like what are men
• 55:05
  to gain from engaging in society when all of society is telling him that he's
• 55:10
  bad, he's wrong, he's sexist, he's a potential rapist and a murderer.
• 55:15
  Okay, why would he want to contribute to this society? And that's
• 55:21
  those are the ones that actually have the options, right, We're talking about
• 55:25
  a subset of men who just don't really have the options. But I think
• 55:32
  a large part of that is due in fact to the the how women are,
• 55:42
  right, Like, they just will overlook any good man, any man,
• 55:47
  just because he doesn't fit some kind of standard that she has, because
• 55:52
  she has some overinflated self sense of importance. Right, I deserve a man
• 56:00
  that earned six figures. Meanwhile, I'm two hundred and fifty fucking towns and
• 56:05
  I got three kids. Yeah. Well, you when we saw that interview
• 56:08
  in at one of the universities where the guy was going around asking ladies at
• 56:14
  the university what they expected their future husband to make um and aside from one
• 56:20
  one unicorn, they were all, you know, demanding like half a million
• 56:25
  dollars and just crazy, you know. I think the next lowest was eight
• 56:30
  K a year. And I'm like, Kim, Who's going to come out
• 56:34
  of university earning eighty K a year? That's there is no there is no
• 56:38
  financial literacy within these these younger generations. Better marry a gastroenterologist and hope he's
• 56:46
  he's popular electrician or a plumber with you yea, yeah, but they would
• 56:52
  look down on those guys. Blush drivers in New York City make eighty grand
• 56:58
  a year, but the women will look down on and because he's a bus
• 57:01
  driver, will excuse me, who the fuck are you? You make?
• 57:06
  What? Twenty five k? Work it at? You know whatever? You're
• 57:10
  answering phones for someone, you know what I mean. But they think that
• 57:14
  they deserve so much more than what they actually do, and they overlook these
• 57:19
  men who are just you know, they're living their lives day to day,
• 57:22
  they go to work, they're not really breaking any laws, you know what
• 57:27
  I mean. They're just trying to live their fucking lives. But they are
• 57:30
  completely overlooked. And that those that group of men is what is being lumped
• 57:36
  into this in cell category because what they have done with this term in cell
• 57:43
  is they have weaponized it. And so anyone that I don't find sexually attractive,
• 57:50
  oh you're an in cell. I don't think you can get pussy,
• 57:52
  So you're an in cell, you know what I mean. And it's completely
• 57:57
  dismissive of so many men. This is it. And I'm not saying that
• 58:02
  there are not a group of men that are physically actually can be categorized as
• 58:10
  you know. They just can't find someone that they can actually form a relationship
• 58:15
  with for whatever reason, and you know, due to no fault of their
• 58:20
  own. Yeah, I mean it percent of men, I think in they're
• 58:25
  under thirty or something, according to the one of the latest polls, haven't
• 58:30
  had sex or aren't in a relationship, um for a year or more or
• 58:36
  maybe even the last eighteen months. It keeps growing. I mean, it's
• 58:38
  it's really yeah, but but it really burns me up every time because it's
• 58:45
  just like it's become a catch all phrase in cell. Not get called that
• 58:50
  I'm like a fifth year old grandma, um, and I get called an
• 58:53
  in cell like are you kidding me? You know, yeah, I'm totally
• 58:58
  like exactly, And and they're thinking of that stupid stereotype, which you're right
• 59:02
  that that's not a good excuse to dismiss those guys. In fact, the
• 59:08
  best that you could do with that stereotype is say, okay, so here's
• 59:12
  the direction from which these guys need support so they don't have to be sad
• 59:20
  for the rest of their lives, or so they don't become suicidal, or
• 59:22
  you know, so that they can have like normal human experiences, relationships,
• 59:28
  social experiences outside of romantic relationships and stuff like that. But people instead are
• 59:35
  like, well, you know, that guy's just a you know, a
• 59:37
  stupid emo kid, Like we don't have to look at him. And that's
• 59:42
  where you end up with a lot of um anger and resentment building up with
• 59:47
  people. And exactly that usually results not in destruction on going toward the outside
• 59:53
  with men, but destruction going toward the inside. They'll destroy themselves through suicide,
• 1:00:00
  They'll destroy themselves through risk taking, They'll destroy themselves through substance abuse,
• 1:00:05
  or just simply withdraw from society. All right, nobody wants me. I'm
• 1:00:08
  going to sit in my room and play video games, exactly. And not
• 1:00:12
  that there's anything wrong with video games, but if they're the only thing you
• 1:00:15
  get to do because you are afraid nobody wants to be around you, then
• 1:00:20
  then it becomes a detrimental thing, exactly, right, And so like I
• 1:00:24
  think what you just described is is what happens in a majority of cases with
• 1:00:29
  these people. But then what happens anytime there's like a school shooter or a
• 1:00:34
  mass shooting. The first fucking thing they say, Oh, this guy was
• 1:00:38
  an in cell all he's got all right beliefs. Oh my god. No,
• 1:00:45
  it takes a certain type of psychopath to not care about themselves or anyone
• 1:00:51
  else. Yeah, right, it's completely different. Yeah, oh yeah,
• 1:00:57
  there's a lot more going on with school shooters than yeah. So. But
• 1:01:00
  but but the again, it's this word, and Mike said it it's because
• 1:01:07
  you adopted this word, and you know it's too late now because it's out
• 1:01:10
  there in public knowledge. Right. It's just that's what people call guys who
• 1:01:17
  they don't like or think that, and it's it's so detrimental to the people
• 1:01:22
  who actually might need, you know, someone to look out for the right.
• 1:01:29
  It's not just weaponized, by the way, it's actually a weapon.
• 1:01:32
  Yeah, the word insult didn't appear until about nine years ago. It was
• 1:01:37
  during um, I don't know if there's an internet cute slang for the terms
• 1:01:43
  Elliott Rogers. I'll just go and say Roger, it's I think I think
• 1:01:46
  it may have existed in the deepest depths of four chan. But then once
• 1:01:51
  the Eliot Roger thing happened, it was on it was on feminism's Defcon one
• 1:01:57
  list of things to call people. So it was ever used as a positive
• 1:02:02
  identity before it became a weapon of feminists. And that's that's what it's spent
• 1:02:09
  almost its entire shelf life being not not not just a weaponized identity, but
• 1:02:15
  just a straight up weapon, just a series of sailables that you throw at
• 1:02:20
  people to make them sound by terrorists. It's and it's all based on whether
• 1:02:27
  or not a man, specifically a man who has had the confirming touch of
• 1:02:34
  a woman. It's much like the word heathens, you know, someone who
• 1:02:37
  hasn't been baptized. It's must like the word a certain and whether I'm not
• 1:02:44
  allowed to certain YouTube all of the baptism is just a little bit stickier.
• 1:02:49
  How's that? But um, I wanted to point out I did get the
• 1:02:52
  first link up on the screen. I finally remembered, Um, what what
• 1:02:58
  goes on with research sate on, at least on my browser, is it
• 1:03:04
  puts all of the other options first, and then if you just want to
• 1:03:07
  scroll down and look at this and so like it's underneath all this stuff that
• 1:03:13
  I'm like, how do I get through all this stuff? How do I
• 1:03:15
  click out of this? I didn't have to, just had to scroll way
• 1:03:17
  down. So I've got the abstract up from the The article is levels of
• 1:03:27
  well Being among men who are in cells. Yes, this William Costello study
• 1:03:34
  that came out last year. Um, and he has another one coming out
• 1:03:37
  any minute now. They just finished collecting the data for it. And so
• 1:03:42
  this one had like one hundred and fifty or something respondents. I know the
• 1:03:45
  new one has like five hundreds. So that's really great, and this is
• 1:03:47
  really good, good work. It's neutral, it's honest. It's not focused
• 1:03:52
  on the violence or anything like that at all. I don't even think he
• 1:03:54
  really looks that bad. Actually, it's just um levels, like self perception,
• 1:04:01
  perceptions of like mate preferences, politically like all this, you know,
• 1:04:05
  kind of interesting demographic stuff and mental health. Okay, so, um,
• 1:04:14
  there were some things that you had you had pointed out the previous Um,
• 1:04:19
  the article that we had read most of the research that she cited, had
• 1:04:26
  looked maybe had lifted some things from this but gotten them wrong. Yeah,
• 1:04:31
  well it referenced this and a couple other studies as if it were like quoting
• 1:04:40
  directly from the study, and it just wasn't. It was like, you
• 1:04:43
  know, actually looking at a different person's work that was a review that included
• 1:04:49
  some death. Okay, So yeah, this this whole um idea of like
• 1:04:59
  an in cell complex and treating any of this as like a psychological condition.
• 1:05:06
  None of these researchers, probably not even the ones that did the reviews that
• 1:05:11
  they're citing, would would be on board with that. Yeah, and I'm
• 1:05:16
  looking at the abstract here concludes with some interesting statements that kind of contradict even
• 1:05:26
  the portrayal of research as considering in cells as an at risk group for outward
• 1:05:33
  violence. It says these findings suggest in cells represent a newly identified at risk
• 1:05:42
  group to target for mental health interventions, possibly informed by evolutionary psychology. Potential
• 1:05:48
  applications for mental health professionals as well as directions for future research are discussed,
• 1:05:55
  and it seems like this seems more of a consideration of you know, like,
• 1:05:59
  these people are in need, how can we help them? Not these
• 1:06:01
  people are a threat? What can we do about it? So reporting on
• 1:06:08
  it as a as a threat narrative was really an egregious wrongdoing as far as
• 1:06:15
  journalism is concerned. Yea, And it was also I think the piece also
• 1:06:21
  had like some vague recommendations and like things to look forward that we're just out
• 1:06:28
  there and not based on any of the research I'm familiar with, Whereas this
• 1:06:32
  one, I think the suggestion of recommending evolutionary psychology was a really great one
• 1:06:39
  because that acknowledges some of the differences between men and women. Beyond that,
• 1:06:45
  it also acknowledges a lot of the insults like in the Black Pill, you
• 1:06:48
  know, their their quote unquote ideology, though I'm like hesitant to call it
• 1:06:54
  that, but we'll call it that as a shorthand what they believe in,
• 1:06:57
  what they talk about the Black Pill, that insalls, you know, created
• 1:07:01
  is made a lot of evolutionary psychology studies where they talk about localism, where
• 1:07:05
  they talk about, you know, why women are hypergamous and all these other
• 1:07:12
  issues, but they're based on whether I agree with them or not. They're
• 1:07:15
  largely based on evolutionary psychology. So for a therapist to be somewhat familiar with
• 1:07:21
  that, which probably be helpful for them to form rapport with an insall.
• 1:07:27
  You know, Yeah, yeah, you know, it's interesting about them.
• 1:07:31
  The term black pill predates the term in cell, so it's not something that
• 1:07:38
  they came up with, but it gets attributed to them all the time,
• 1:07:42
  and that it gets treated like something that they've created as an ideology, but
• 1:07:46
  really it's it's simply a term for looking at your circumstances or the world political
• 1:07:54
  circumstances that you've become aware of and losing hope for society and losing for your
• 1:08:00
  place in society because of the way law, policy in the social structure interact
• 1:08:06
  with each other. So, for instance, black pilled mrs kind of will
• 1:08:15
  will discuss men's issues, they'll advocate on men's issues, but they don't expect
• 1:08:19
  any social change or any any legal change because they've they've come to the conclusion.
• 1:08:27
  And that's what it is. It's a conclusion, not an ideology.
• 1:08:30
  But they've come to the conclusion that there's no hope for change. Right.
• 1:08:33
  It's fatalism, Which is why I always thought like this is so wild to
• 1:08:38
  ever call this terrorism, because terrorism is like causing violence in hopes of affectional
• 1:08:45
  change, right, social contact or whatever, fulfilling some goal. And insults
• 1:08:51
  are fatalists. They don't believe they can change anything, and they really have
• 1:08:55
  none. I think they would take issue with you saying that they that they
• 1:09:00
  didn't come up with it, even though you're right, because I do think
• 1:09:02
  that they put quite a bit of of time into the black pill wiki.
• 1:09:06
  Oh yeah, I'm sure they have. But like that term existed, It
• 1:09:13
  existed prior to the use of the term in cell to describe men in any
• 1:09:17
  way. UM. And and actually, um, you know, before the
• 1:09:24
  use I before any use of the term in cell comes up online, like
• 1:09:29
  that was something that that you know, you you'd see, um, like
• 1:09:32
  men going their own way discussing the situation, as you know, like they
• 1:09:35
  think there's going to be a societal collapse and there's not necessarily reason to believe
• 1:09:42
  they're they're wholly wrong about that. Um. There are people who have hit
• 1:09:46
  a level of black pill in regard to um, the social standards affecting men
• 1:09:55
  and women and the law and policy that has come out out of that,
• 1:10:00
  and how that has affected things like the economy and the birth rate and so
• 1:10:05
  on, that feel that there will be a complete societal collapse and then we'll
• 1:10:12
  be free to rebuild. And so they've got sort of a black pill with
• 1:10:16
  a silver lining, and like that's been a thing for as long as I've
• 1:10:24
  known about the men's movement. And I got involved with the men's rights subreddit
• 1:10:30
  in like twenty ten or twenty eleven, somewhere in there. There's a couple
• 1:10:35
  of years prior to getting involved with the Honey Badgers. I was online and
• 1:10:43
  doing things there and with an account, and then lost my internet access for
• 1:10:47
  a year or more, And when I came back, the subreddit had grown
• 1:10:53
  exponentially, So it was it was kind of great to see the growth and
• 1:10:58
  at the same time, it was awful to see the need for that growth.
• 1:11:04
  But that's that term, Like there was already by that time. I
• 1:11:11
  think there was already a red pill subreddit. This is a long time ago,
• 1:11:15
  so I'm trying to remember which here, which things happened that a long
• 1:11:18
  time ago, and like that we're talking more than fifteen years of um,
• 1:11:25
  you know, looking at these issues, being involved in these issues, and
• 1:11:27
  there were minute were already veterans of the movement that had been involved in these
• 1:11:33
  discussions prior to my meeting them for like twenty years. UM, So this
• 1:11:40
  wasn't something that just dropped off. But and I know we had the same
• 1:11:45
  thing with UH. You know, like the game Gamergate phenomenon happened, and
• 1:11:53
  there were a lot of people that didn't realize that issues with UH feminist coming
• 1:12:00
  in and telling nerds in the game community, well, you guys are awkward.
• 1:12:05
  You have to get out that. I was not new either, So
• 1:12:10
  you know, there was discussion about that, for instance, and the men's
• 1:12:13
  rights subredditum for for a few years before the game or gate hashtag was started,
• 1:12:18
  and that discussion took place and everything, Like all of this stuff,
• 1:12:24
  as soon as you step into it and you start looking around and you realize,
• 1:12:27
  you know, these issues exist and they're interconnected and everything. If you
• 1:12:31
  don't realize they're interconnected, you think that the little part that of the spectrum
• 1:12:38
  that you have um stumbled into or become part of, was the origin.
• 1:12:44
  And it's easy to feel that way. And I think the men's rights movement,
• 1:12:47
  which sort of had an older um it has a grandfather in the time
• 1:12:55
  of the suffragets and everything. There were there were men there that were there.
• 1:13:00
  We're dealing with, you know, the the honeypot issue, the badger
• 1:13:04
  game issue. Like anybody that wants to to read about some of that stuff.
• 1:13:09
  Can look up unknown Missandryum, I believe it's dot com. You know,
• 1:13:14
  really quick look the unknown history of Missindry and it's unknown Missonry dot blogspot
• 1:13:24
  dot com. If I remember right, because I it's it's coming up and
• 1:13:28
  I realized I didn't have the window. There we go, unknown Missindry dot
• 1:13:31
  blogspot dot com and it's unknown. Missindry is one word. And you can
• 1:13:34
  look in the sidebar on that blog and find links to copies of old news
• 1:13:41
  stories about all kinds of things. Um. And if you look up a
• 1:13:45
  man named Ernest Belfort backs um, he was one who was involved in a
• 1:13:50
  lot of debate on these issues and a lot of discussion on these issues.
• 1:13:55
  Even back then, they wouldn't have used the terms red pill and black pill
• 1:13:59
  because the Matrix movies didn't exist and there was no such um comparison. But
• 1:14:06
  there were still even then, there were men that would have referred to themselves
• 1:14:11
  as confirmed bachelors that were like, you know what, women aren't being sensible
• 1:14:15
  in their relationships toward men as a society or as individuals. We want nothing
• 1:14:19
  to do with them. So there were there were even men going their own
• 1:14:24
  way back then, like this isn't none of this is new, So I
• 1:14:28
  mean it's it's not an insult to insults. I know some of them might
• 1:14:30
  feel insulted if you know, like, oh, we invented black belt.
• 1:14:33
  Well like this, this stuff isn't new. You're part of something that's been
• 1:14:38
  going on for for a long time and our society has needed to address it
• 1:14:42
  for a long time, which also means that you know, all the people
• 1:14:45
  that are trying to blame it on the individual, Well, you're not liked
• 1:14:49
  because there's something wrong with you. It's your job to fix it, you
• 1:14:53
  know, where you're not liked because you're doing things wrong. Um, that's
• 1:14:57
  that's a lot of blooney too, because these are prob problems that have existed
• 1:15:00
  for a long time in our society as a whole has a tendency to dismiss
• 1:15:06
  people too easily and step on people too easily. So this goes both ways,
• 1:15:14
  you know, like, yes, people may need to engage in some
• 1:15:18
  person personal growth to get out of the situation, but at the same time,
• 1:15:23
  our society also needs to engage in some support for that personal growth and
• 1:15:28
  support for reforming connections and so on, and you can't have one without the
• 1:15:34
  other. And just absolutely, I mean, I think that the way that
• 1:15:42
  you know, ultimately, any problem a person faces in their life, whatever
• 1:15:46
  it is, whatever it's connected to, whatever it's caused by, they do
• 1:15:49
  need to address help themselves, because they are the master of their their life
• 1:15:57
  and their choices. But most problems that people face also you can find all
• 1:16:02
  kinds of societal roots for them. And these problems between men and women and
• 1:16:08
  the way we deal with you know, men's problems versus women's problems, and
• 1:16:14
  these roles in society like these must be you know, as old as society
• 1:16:19
  itself. And I don't think that they'll ever I don't think we'll ever like
• 1:16:24
  really resolve this question, right, Like I think it's you know, something
• 1:16:27
  that's always in flux and always evolving, and we always need to keep on
• 1:16:31
  catching up to to where it is and where things stand and how things change.
• 1:16:36
  And I think a lot of a lot of these issues, if they
• 1:16:41
  can't be traced back to the suffrage movement, they can certainly be traced back
• 1:16:45
  to women's lib and reactions to that, and you can argue that like a
• 1:16:49
  lot of that was was the correction to archaic attitudes or whatever to the extent
• 1:16:57
  that it was or it wasn't. But you know, now we're really at
• 1:17:00
  a different point in time, so we need to take some different steps than
• 1:17:04
  to stop treating the world as if like it's this you know, suffocating patriarchy.
• 1:17:12
  Yeah, I think I think part of the problem we're at now is
• 1:17:16
  that what happened with the women's lib movement is they took circumstances that affect both
• 1:17:21
  sexes in different ways. Because for every restriction that was placed on women,
• 1:17:27
  there was a responsibility that men had two women or four women that you know,
• 1:17:33
  necessitated that restriction, And they removed all the restrictions but not the responsibilities,
• 1:17:40
  right, So they took one side of that conundrum, and they're like,
• 1:17:45
  well, we're going to solve this half of the problems, but we're
• 1:17:47
  going to keep the other half of the problems. And now we're in a
• 1:17:50
  situation where men are really suffering because of it and women haven't. At the
• 1:17:57
  same time, they didn't give women equivalent responsibilities. And so what makes you
• 1:18:03
  great in your life as you progress in your career, as you progress in
• 1:18:10
  your family, as as you move forward with your life is being accountable for
• 1:18:15
  yourself, being accountable for your impact on the people around you, and being
• 1:18:19
  mindful of that personal accountability carrying what happens, you know, like being self
• 1:18:26
  accountable and not just socially accountable. And if women live without either that internal
• 1:18:32
  accountability or that social accountability, or they live with a reduced level, they
• 1:18:38
  will never be able to achieve any kind of equal greatness with men. And
• 1:18:44
  feminist will always have a complaint that women are not yeah or happiness because you're
• 1:18:49
  miserable. If you don't know why you're spending your wheels for your whole life,
• 1:18:53
  right, you're miserable. If you're stuck and you don't understand what's holding
• 1:18:57
  you down. Yes, and if you feel idle to everything and you're constantly
• 1:19:01
  unsatisfied, I mean, I want to I want to give a little something.
• 1:19:05
  This might be unpopular around these parts, but just to give a little
• 1:19:10
  something to the ladies out there. I do think that in you know,
• 1:19:15
  despite all of these ridiculous social attitudes and the attitudes you know, expressed in
• 1:19:19
  media and even acted upon in policy, I do think that in reality,
• 1:19:26
  there are a lot of women who are still you know, responsible for a
• 1:19:30
  lot of things. A lot of women who work and who are almost entirely
• 1:19:34
  responsible for raising families, and a lot of great women, and a lot
• 1:19:39
  of women who aren't narcissistic or superficial. And yeah, though they might they
• 1:19:44
  might express like some of these attitudes when they're surveyed on a college campus because
• 1:19:48
  they see it on TikTok or something like, in real life, aren't going
• 1:19:53
  to completely you know, they're not going to be gold diggers, and they're
• 1:19:57
  not going to exclude men that don't make you know, two hundred and fifty
• 1:20:01
  grand once they're actually living a more real life and once they grow up a
• 1:20:08
  little bit, hopefully, I think that like, these attitudes are probably don't
• 1:20:14
  run very deep, but if they do, then they will be miserable and
• 1:20:16
  it's bad for everyone. Well, that's just it. When you find a
• 1:20:19
  lot of people that are younger, like I would refer to a Cassie Jay
• 1:20:24
  experience where she had an outlook on feminism based on her education, based on
• 1:20:29
  the perspective that she was she had access to up to the point where she
• 1:20:33
  met the men's rights movement, and then she learned a lot more information and
• 1:20:38
  it changed her perspective and it's hard for people to do. And I think
• 1:20:44
  women are sort of raised with this ideas about our image in regard to the
• 1:20:54
  public. That makes it even harder for us. I think it were socially
• 1:20:57
  trained to be reticent to admit when we're wrong. Um. But she overcame
• 1:21:04
  that, and I think other women can do that. Um. It's a
• 1:21:08
  very difficult thing for any individual. So like, that's when I like,
• 1:21:13
  I have mad respect for that, because that's even hard. You know,
• 1:21:16
  when when it's blatantly obvious that you've made a mistake, it's even hard then.
• 1:21:21
  But she could have just wandered back into the ideology and said, well,
• 1:21:29
  I'm going to use the ideology to explain all of this and ignore you
• 1:21:31
  guys and made a hit piece if she'd wanted to, and she would money,
• 1:21:36
  it would have been very accepted. She'd have been a media darling,
• 1:21:41
  And yes she did. Instead. Was the hardest thing in the world.
• 1:21:45
  And I'm sure you've had the same experience within cells where people have treated you
• 1:21:50
  like the show. I run up against this just constantly. It's like,
• 1:21:56
  I don't have the correct opinion on this to be able to be interviewed for
• 1:22:00
  like various outlets for the big, big media papers. You're going to say
• 1:22:09
  to demail these guys, M and the podcast could have been. It was.
• 1:22:14
  It was really successful for like an independent little podcast because it was an
• 1:22:17
  interesting topic, but it could have been. I had offers from like wondering
• 1:22:23
  like big you know, podcast platforms and stuff early on, before they knew
• 1:22:28
  where I was going to go with it. It was written up in the
• 1:22:30
  New York Times and stuff, and then after a certain point it was like
• 1:22:33
  that stuff stopped. Yeah, yeah, And I'm sure you probably had to
• 1:22:38
  confront some things too, Like that's one of the things I did when I
• 1:22:42
  went into the UM. You know, the minutes right subreddit is more of
• 1:22:45
  just a sort of a knockdown, drag out discussion on men's issues. But
• 1:22:48
  then there there was the red pill subreddit, which I don't know if they've
• 1:22:53
  um nuke did or not. They've threatened to nuke it for years, so
• 1:22:57
  it's very possible. Problem. No one's a little more blunt about um female
• 1:23:03
  dysfunction, and there were there's more things in there that are difficult to listen
• 1:23:09
  to, like when you talk about the levels of responsibility between male citizens versus
• 1:23:15
  female citizens and males in a relationship versus females and a relationship, males and
• 1:23:20
  a family versus females and a family. And you look at what is socially
• 1:23:26
  and legally expected of women versus what is socially and legally expected of men.
• 1:23:31
  There's a maturity level that men are expected to reach that goes beyond the maturity
• 1:23:38
  level that women are expected to reach. In terms of personal responsibility, we
• 1:23:42
  hit at adulthood what they hit at at fourteen or fifteen years old when they
• 1:23:48
  start dating. And you know, maybe maybe kids are dating later now because
• 1:23:53
  they can't drive in the United States till they're older. But but that when
• 1:23:59
  I first looked at that, I'm like, that's they're saying women are mature.
• 1:24:02
  That's offensive. And then I'm like, well, so what is it
• 1:24:06
  right? And then I had to think about it. You know, I
• 1:24:11
  looked at um when I was looking at relationships, looking at you know,
• 1:24:17
  what am I going to do when I get married? What am I going
• 1:24:19
  to do after I'm out of my parents house and everything. If I had
• 1:24:26
  hooked up with somebody to marry that wanted me to be a housewife, wanted
• 1:24:31
  me to be a homemaker and to not have a career, and I chose
• 1:24:35
  to do that, no job, no contributing financially to the household at all,
• 1:24:43
  in just raising kids and being half of the kid raising team. That
• 1:24:50
  would have been socially acceptable. Nobody would have said, gosh, you're lazy.
• 1:24:55
  Nobody would have said, gosha'rer responsible. Somebody else is paying for every
• 1:25:00
  thing that you do and have and want. And even if I, um,
• 1:25:04
  even if I was irresponsible with money, you know, criticizing me would
• 1:25:09
  be less likely than if I was a man. And so you have to
• 1:25:13
  kind of confront all that stuff, and it's it is hard to confront.
• 1:25:17
  But when you go into a forum, I think a lot of men are
• 1:25:20
  imasurre too. I think a lot of people are immature. It is true
• 1:25:24
  that a lot of people are immature, but what's expected of them versus what's
• 1:25:29
  expected of us is different, and the pressures are different. Like if I
• 1:25:32
  got to the age I am now and I didn't I didn't have a baby,
• 1:25:38
  um, people would treat me differently in a much higher pressure way than
• 1:25:44
  they would a guy. Like so there's there's pressures women are under as well,
• 1:25:48
  um, but they are very different, And it's which is more irresponsible,
• 1:25:54
  being the um being pressure to be the breadwinner of a family and never
• 1:25:59
  starting a fan or not being pressured to be the breadwinner of a family,
• 1:26:03
  but starting one anyway without the breadwinner. And it's it's kind of a tough
• 1:26:11
  m because I technically did that even though really I had the breadwinner. I
• 1:26:16
  was the breadwinner, and I jumped the gun in terms of fertility, but
• 1:26:25
  meaning that my husband and I are got married after we had our son instead
• 1:26:28
  of before um or we had our son before we got married instead of after
• 1:26:32
  however you want to say it, but there's a lot of women that today
• 1:26:39
  are voluntarily without a financial plan in mind getting pregnant and keeping custody of their
• 1:26:46
  kids, and nobody is allowed to criticize that, Like we're not allowed to
• 1:26:50
  say, hey, you're relying on the taxes of thousands of men, and
• 1:26:56
  hey, this is and it's it is a situation where like there's a lot
• 1:27:00
  of social contributing factors. Yes, to me, that's what it really comes
• 1:27:04
  down to, is like, like you said, what we're allowed to criticize
• 1:27:08
  and like what is socially uh right acceptable or taboo for women? Hardly.
• 1:27:15
  I mean it's not really true in the media. In like media, you
• 1:27:20
  can't criticize anything women does. I think there still are certainly remnant, harsh,
• 1:27:28
  very harsh criticisms of women who do things like that that are are not
• 1:27:32
  really necessarily allowed to be expressed as openly, but are still strongly felts.
• 1:27:39
  Right, we have we have a lot of things that go unspoken, and
• 1:27:42
  at the same time, a lot of young women who maybe would be better
• 1:27:46
  off if they got that advice before they started having sex with boys, you
• 1:27:51
  know, girls in their teenage years, like girls that get pregnant at the
• 1:27:56
  age of twelve and thirteen years old. Um, like, I know I
• 1:28:00
  talked kind of tough to my kids about that kind of thing. Yeah,
• 1:28:03
  Like we went through rough times because, um, you know I and I
• 1:28:08
  was twenty seven when I made um stupid decisions that that you know, brought
• 1:28:13
  our son into the world before we were ready for him, a planned child.
• 1:28:17
  Um that that just was early, just ahead of ahead of the game,
• 1:28:21
  right, you know that that was rough. Imagine how rough you know
• 1:28:27
  you'd have it, you know you talk into the kids, Imagine how rough
• 1:28:30
  you'd have it if you were seventeen. The child was not planned. You
• 1:28:33
  were not going to marry that guy, and now you have um all these
• 1:28:38
  decisions to make you know, and you have put potentially a kid to feed
• 1:28:43
  for the rest of their childhood. If you're going to keep custody, you
• 1:28:46
  know, how are you going to handle at um when someone's been through Oh
• 1:28:54
  gosh, I fucked up. Now I gotta scramble to make sure the consequences
• 1:28:57
  don't fall on the baby that I just created. You get a different perspective
• 1:29:02
  if you have a mindfulness of my actions impact this other person, and it
• 1:29:09
  does change the development of a young woman if she hears you have to be
• 1:29:15
  responsible for what might happen if you make a bad decision then and guys get
• 1:29:21
  that. Guys are told that you have to be responsible, but they're told
• 1:29:26
  that on a level that makes them responsible for things that are not their fault.
• 1:29:30
  You're responsible. If people don't like freckles, you're responsible. If people
• 1:29:35
  don't like smaller chins, you know you're responsible. If you're the only gay
• 1:29:42
  guy in a small community, No, you're not. Not while you're growing
• 1:29:45
  up and not not You're not responsible for other people's social attitudes. There are
• 1:29:50
  things you can do to make your life better, but you can't be responsible
• 1:29:56
  for other people's thoughts, feelings, internal monologues and stuff like that. And
• 1:30:01
  so we have this sort of dichotomy. It's no wonder they look at this
• 1:30:09
  research and say, well, these people said that guys are finding therapy unhelpful,
• 1:30:15
  shame on them. As opposed to these people said that guys are finding
• 1:30:21
  therapy unhelpful. How does therapy need to change to fix that? Right?
• 1:30:30
  I don't know. I'd probably thrown a lot at you there, But that's
• 1:30:35
  what happens sometimes when you get me on a on a kick about the differences
• 1:30:39
  between socially between men and women. We have a lot of history of ignoring
• 1:30:45
  men's vulnerabilities and ignoring women's capabilities. Yeah, And I think what's happening is,
• 1:30:54
  you know, there's the court of public opinion and there's the court of
• 1:30:58
  law, right, and seems like increasingly that the two are just being conflated.
• 1:31:03
  Right, Like, if if you have a great enough um, you
• 1:31:08
  know, public opinion in one direction, and you happen to go into a
• 1:31:15
  court of law based off these allegations that are made against you. Allah uh
• 1:31:21
  Andrew Tate right, Like it's it's the magic, right, But like,
• 1:31:34
  what this really is is the erosion of due process. Yes, it is
• 1:31:39
  that that's what the founders wanted to prevent, those mob rules, right exactly.
• 1:31:44
  And now for the people who are going to make the comment, I
• 1:31:47
  understand that this is Romania in a different country and the laws are different,
• 1:31:51
  YadA, YadA, YadA, but the facts still remain the same. Because
• 1:31:58
  if this is happening in Romania, what makes you think that it is not
• 1:32:02
  happening and cannot happen in the United States of America in any other country.
• 1:32:08
  Yeah, I mean we just seem like I mean, I think the Trump
• 1:32:12
  indictment, all this nonsense, Like that's whatever. I'm not going to get
• 1:32:15
  too political about it because people have their own opinions about it, and I
• 1:32:17
  don't have strong opinions about it, but like that was obviously a a lot
• 1:32:23
  of politically motivated sort of arrest and policy and just people suffering consequences like cancelation,
• 1:32:30
  like things like that, corporate pressure, you know, people boycotting corporations,
• 1:32:35
  etc. Because they don't like something somebody said, Like that's basically it's
• 1:32:41
  it's having consequences that are financial and are you know almost legal? Am I
• 1:32:47
  the only one that hears the theme song from the Pink Panther cartoon every time
• 1:32:53
  I read a story about them indicting Trump, because like the guy, um,
• 1:33:00
  you know, whether you like him or not, whether you agree with
• 1:33:02
  his politics or not. Like there's I think of him almost the same way
• 1:33:06
  as RuSHA Lamba. I agree with him on some things. I disagree with
• 1:33:10
  him on some things. Um, he's definitely disliked by the media for reasons
• 1:33:14
  that should cause some appreciation in anybody that's an independent thinker, right, But
• 1:33:19
  this, this constant chase since since twenty sixteen, so to try to get
• 1:33:27
  him on something, and every time they do, they screw themselves over in
• 1:33:32
  a public relations way, like the public hates these people now, Um,
• 1:33:38
  it's just it's great. It's like watching the Pink Panther go through a construction
• 1:33:42
  site with the inspector or the um, you know, the foreman chasing after
• 1:33:46
  him, trying to get him out of there. And every time the guy
• 1:33:49
  goes after him, he gets hit in the head with a paint bucket,
• 1:33:53
  you know, instead of capturing the pink pain It's like, oh there,
• 1:33:58
  there's another Trump story. DNA DNA, and I'm like, oh god,
• 1:34:06
  yeah, this is great. Um, and I wish more politicians would have
• 1:34:11
  this experience just because it's so much fun to watch. But at the same
• 1:34:15
  time, did you process issues that come out of it scare the crap out
• 1:34:18
  of me, because like, at this point, you don't have to commit
• 1:34:20
  a crime to get charged, right, and the law that they're sighting doesn't
• 1:34:27
  have to say what they're claiming. It says for them to use against you.
• 1:34:30
  And once you've have been acquitted of something or or exonerated of something,
• 1:34:36
  people will talk about it as if you're guilty. It's as like getting accused
• 1:34:41
  of falsely accused of rape, which is pretty much It's less the pink panther
• 1:34:46
  and must stop the pigeon. I don't know that's that? Is that a
• 1:34:51
  UK cartoon? Oh okay, okay, pigeon general ras It is like what
• 1:35:00
  happens when Dick dossibly, the career criminal Cheeta, finally wins the race and
• 1:35:06
  wins the rights to every race that never happens, and then he spends the
• 1:35:11
  rest of his career forlornly trying to capture a pigeon and it never quite does
• 1:35:17
  he's bizarre new contraptions to try and catch him every episode and then then and
• 1:35:23
  they never were. Sorry, but yeah, probably probably the gen X comparison
• 1:35:28
  would be a roadrunner in the Coyote. Yeah, but because that's it's the
• 1:35:34
  same thing. You know, He's got all these acme contraptions that are going
• 1:35:38
  to get get the road runner, going to trap the road runner, and
• 1:35:40
  he pulls the string then and the rocks supposed to fall on the road road
• 1:35:44
  Runner and nothing happens until he goes and stands under it, then it falls.
• 1:35:47
  But yeah, that's that's basically where we are with that. Um.
• 1:35:53
  But yeah, and that that is a pretty much a statement on how our
• 1:35:59
  society, honestly, on how our society views men. That that you you
• 1:36:03
  look at him, um, and and the things that he's done, like
• 1:36:08
  yeah, you know, you could criticize, for instance, uh, some
• 1:36:12
  of his handling of the COVID crisis, like he listened to the wrong people
• 1:36:15
  for sure on on a lot of stuff and it really caused severe problems in
• 1:36:20
  the country and then Biden just continued them. Um. But yeah, correct
• 1:36:27
  impulses early on that were criticized. Yeah, oh yeah, definitely, And
• 1:36:31
  you know, the flights from China, et cetera. Yeah, there were
• 1:36:34
  some things that he should have continued that he stopped. Yeah that that like,
• 1:36:40
  you know, he was right and again listened to the wrong people.
• 1:36:44
  Um, there's a guy there that that should trust his instincts more than his
• 1:36:47
  advisors. And a lot of situations I think, and you know, I
• 1:36:53
  suppose that he was more arrogant, we would have been in better role of
• 1:36:57
  Um, but that's you know, our because he did things differently than the
• 1:37:04
  establishment, you know, than the than the orthodoxy, that that made him
• 1:37:10
  everybody's target. Like they responded to him like an immune system, right,
• 1:37:15
  the orthodoxy, the establishment responded to him like an immune system. And I
• 1:37:19
  think what we're looking at in terms of like here's perfectly sensible research talking about
• 1:37:27
  needs and patterns of behavior and how those patterns of behavior can reveal the needs
• 1:37:35
  of individuals within a group. And you get people writing about this research as
• 1:37:43
  if it is a revelation of how these individuals can be a threat. They're
• 1:37:47
  doing the same thing. They're reacting to the outsider or the individual who does
• 1:37:55
  things differently than the orthodoxy, the orthodoxy being you know, you you grow
• 1:38:00
  up, you get your date, you get married, you have children,
• 1:38:02
  you pay taxes, you know, um, and you work yourself to death
• 1:38:09
  and pay taxes. And they're they're outside that orthodoxy. So our society reacts
• 1:38:15
  to them to a degree, and in particular, the establishment reacts to them
• 1:38:19
  like the immune system would react to a virus. I think we're we're living
• 1:38:25
  in an extremely conformist time where the establishment and the orthodoxy have more power,
• 1:38:36
  I would say, especially culturally than they have in recent history. Obviously,
• 1:38:44
  none of us have been alive for all of recent history, depending on how
• 1:38:46
  far back you go. But I do feel like there is sort of like,
• 1:38:51
  you know, conformism in terms of political views, in terms of like
• 1:38:59
  paths one should take in life, in terms of some of these feminist ideas
• 1:39:01
  and education, and you know, just like the establishment media and politicians and
• 1:39:08
  everyone else hates Trump like that. It's really you know, being an outsider
• 1:39:13
  makes you such a threat. Now, like so do these outsiders, these
• 1:39:16
  in cells like people take them as a literal threat of violence, and and
• 1:39:21
  so do outsider thinkers in the sciences and in academia are just really having a
• 1:39:30
  hard time finding any any place, Like there's a really, really strong resistance
• 1:39:36
  to anything like that. Yeah. Um, before we start sort of concluding
• 1:39:43
  the show, are there any parts of the research that you wanted to specifically
• 1:39:45
  highlight in terms of like me reading them out or showing them on the screen
• 1:39:50
  and discuss them a little bit. Um, you know, I don't.
• 1:39:56
  I don't think so. I kind of feel like I bang on about it
• 1:39:59
  all the time, so it's hard to say, you know, what I
• 1:40:02
  haven't said or not. But mostly it's it's just that, you know,
• 1:40:06
  Um, the good research doesn't even really look at them as a legitimate threat
• 1:40:13
  of violence. They're not, And so everything else is kind of downstream from
• 1:40:16
  there, like how we treat them in therapy, how we treat them as
• 1:40:20
  a society, like all of that stuff I think can be handled better once
• 1:40:27
  we once we really nail that concept, like this is not a terroristic threat,
• 1:40:31
  right, And I would agree with that, um. And I like
• 1:40:35
  when I've sort of I sort of scrolled a little bit and started looking at
• 1:40:39
  some of the things they're referencing and everything, and it just looks like everything
• 1:40:43
  in this has been mischaracterized by the writer focusing on on violence because the research
• 1:40:51
  seems to be exploring what are the things that are are impacting the people that
• 1:41:00
  were examining here, What are the things that are causing them pain and suffering,
• 1:41:04
  What are the things that are hindering their interpersonal relationships? And what avenues
• 1:41:11
  of um recovery or growth can they have to overcome those issues? And it's
• 1:41:18
  it doesn't seem at all to be about treating them like a threat or a
• 1:41:26
  phenomenon that people should be concerned about for for reasons other than these people need
• 1:41:32
  our compassion. Um. They're going through something that maybe not everybody understands but
• 1:41:39
  is definitely painful. And that's completely different than the way that the media portrays
• 1:41:48
  the research in general. Yeah, that's exactly right. And wouldn't wouldn't you
• 1:41:55
  know, like what a shock that the researchers who did actually take time to
• 1:42:00
  dirty their hands, so to speak and speak to these people, which again,
• 1:42:04
  very few researchers have done it at all, look at them that way.
• 1:42:10
  And then the researchers that don't that just write about other people's research or
• 1:42:14
  that just scrape words on a website are the ones that talk about them like
• 1:42:17
  they're terrorists. Like yep, So it seems to be pretty similar to other
• 1:42:26
  research that we've seen in the movement that mischaracterizes men like they don't, they
• 1:42:30
  don't really research that's done without connection to men, or without compassion for men,
• 1:42:40
  without empathy, it's always going to do that. I think that's the
• 1:42:45
  situation we're looking at, and I think that pretty much. I think that
• 1:42:48
  covers um what I really wanted is to cover in following up on that article,
• 1:42:56
  and I think we've hit not only a lot of important points about the
• 1:43:01
  topic, but also some points that are related to the topic, and some
• 1:43:08
  more closely, some less closely. So I'm probably gonna take us out of
• 1:43:13
  the show. We're a lot earlier than we usually are, but remember we
• 1:43:17
  started at seven o'clock, so and I'm gonna do this. I think moving
• 1:43:21
  forward, we're going to keep HBr Talk at seven o'clock. We had moved
• 1:43:27
  to seven thirty four reasons that are no longer affecting the show, so I
• 1:43:33
  think we'll we'll just keep it at seven o'clock from now on. I think
• 1:43:36
  it's going to make it easier for more people to come on also, So
• 1:43:45
  but in any case, let me go ahead and we'll start with I have
• 1:43:50
  a super chat from Richard Bierre gave us four ninety nine. Circumcision was per
• 1:43:58
  pushed by doctor Kellogg to prevent masturbation because it was seen as the cause of
• 1:44:01
  many social ills. Um. What's interesting was that he pushed that, and
• 1:44:05
  he pushed some things to do to girls also to stop girls from masturbating.
• 1:44:12
  The things that he pushed to do to boys caught on. People recognize abuse
• 1:44:18
  more easily when it's done to girls than when it's done to boys, depending
• 1:44:25
  on the severity of the abuse. And so he was that that was kind
• 1:44:30
  of interesting. And also I think there's more demonization of it with boys.
• 1:44:35
  Um. But let's see we have I don't think we have any other We
• 1:44:41
  got one more. That's also for Richard Bierre says, I wonder how doctor
• 1:44:45
  Kellogg would feel about his company embracing pride ideology. Oh my gosh, will
• 1:44:56
  he's spinning in his watery grave. Um a similar thing, doesn't it.
• 1:45:00
  I mean it takes the idea of circumcision and and and pumps it up to
• 1:45:05
  the nth degree, does it not? Well, yeah, because what's going
• 1:45:10
  on right now is kind of um sterilization. So you do have that.
• 1:45:15
  That's kind of an ins degree thing. Right there. Just it's not just
• 1:45:18
  sterilization. It's it's that they're not just cutting off the tip of the flesh
• 1:45:24
  there. I mean, do you want me to describe it? Not really,
• 1:45:29
  I think that would probably give us some trouble. But yeah, your
• 1:45:31
  head, I'm going to use the word butterfly and leave it there. Yeah.
• 1:45:35
  Yeah. So Kellog would probably look at that and go, well,
• 1:45:39
  yeah, that will prevent masturbation. Yeah so, but yeah, um,
• 1:45:45
  in any case, yeah, I think he At the same time, I
• 1:45:48
  think, um, I don't know if he ever said anything about sexuality that
• 1:45:56
  wasn't something that was a broadly talked about issue at the time. There was
• 1:46:00
  a lot of condemnation, a lot of prejudice back then, so there is
• 1:46:03
  that. I would think that if masturbation alone was taboo for them, then
• 1:46:11
  certainly homosexuality wouldn't be like the devil has come into your house and taken over
• 1:46:17
  your child. Oh yeah, because a lot of objection to it was centered
• 1:46:20
  around viewing it is self indulgent. So yeah, you know, and it's
• 1:46:25
  such an idea out of left field. Did the idea of a corn based
• 1:46:29
  grain snack for breakfast would also contribute to the lowering of masturbation, because somewhere
• 1:46:35
  in Kellogg's head he was like, Oh, these these kids eating proteins and
• 1:46:41
  fat for breakfast. That's making him masturbate? Is it? Where have you
• 1:46:45
  got this from? John? I don't know if that was maybe the impetition
• 1:46:51
  other than selling corn and sugar. Yeah, well I don't think corn flakes.
• 1:46:57
  Did they have that much sugar in them initially? Anyway? I couldn't
• 1:47:01
  tell you because I don't eat them. But I mean look at what it
• 1:47:05
  evolved into, right, Yeah, involved syrup or whatever you'll call it.
• 1:47:15
  I mean, yeah that originally we didn't have that um, but it would
• 1:47:17
  have been cane sugar. But I will say one thing in regard to cereal
• 1:47:24
  um breakfast cereals and stuff. If you really want a good way of evaluating
• 1:47:30
  whether that's great nutrition or not, take a look at how goose liver pattee
• 1:47:34
  is made. And I don't mean after the liver is removed from the goose.
• 1:47:41
  I mean how the liver is made to be fatty so that it makes
• 1:47:45
  a good patte What do they do to the geese grains? They force feed
• 1:47:54
  them grains, They force feed them exactly what your corn flakes are made out
• 1:47:59
  of cheez. Yeah, so we're we're talking like everything should be in moderation.
• 1:48:08
  And like the idea of eating corn flakes or any other kind of breakfast
• 1:48:12
  cereal every day and making it your main breakfast and not sometimes having eggs and
• 1:48:17
  sometimes having meat and other things, Um, might I actually be detrimental to
• 1:48:26
  human health? I think, I think I'm thinking now. I might have
• 1:48:31
  a big think later, but I'm thinking that like the idea of cereal was
• 1:48:36
  the the seed for fast food. Yeah, right, because you know,
• 1:48:45
  breakfast was what you had and what you had to cook. It didn't come
• 1:48:48
  out of a box. Well, and yeah, the the But the big
• 1:48:55
  thing that comes out of all this for me is you have one guy that
• 1:49:00
  came up with a bunch of ideas that people latched onto or like, well,
• 1:49:02
  we're gonna do things this way, and many of them turned out to
• 1:49:09
  be wrong, and we're still doing them. When we look at that,
• 1:49:14
  and then we look at you relate this back to what we're talking about today.
• 1:49:20
  We certainly can't have one ideological outlook, say feminism. Look at how
• 1:49:33
  men react to being isolated socially or otherwise. Um, I guess you could
• 1:49:40
  say socially harmed. Socially I don't like the idea of talking about him as
• 1:49:44
  socially wounded, but but basically socially damaged, you know, in some way
• 1:49:49
  or another. And we have a very small few people and in particular,
• 1:49:57
  UM, god, I can't think of his name her name, UM ray
• 1:50:03
  and Connell, Uh, determining how we look at male psychology from a feminist
• 1:50:10
  perspective and filtering all the information through that. UM, I would say Rayland
• 1:50:15
  Connell is the Kellogg of UM gender gender based looks at at human psychology.
• 1:50:26
  The toxic masculinity narrative that Rayl and Connell created is going to do as much
• 1:50:31
  harm to to the psychological medicine community. UM. The psychological medicine phenomenon as
• 1:50:44
  circumcision and UH normalizing eating just grains for breakfast and and no no meat and
• 1:50:53
  no fatum did to you know, the physical health community and the dietary health
• 1:51:01
  community. UM you look at when when breakfast cereals started becoming a norm,
• 1:51:09
  and when our society started developing a diabetes epidemic. UM you kind of look
• 1:51:17
  at, gosh, maybe we need to have a more UM, non processed
• 1:51:24
  and more balanced set of meals that we're eating. Well, if you look
• 1:51:30
  at you know, when when the toxic masculinity narrative became the norm, and
• 1:51:41
  when we started seeing a strict rise in a phenomenon of people identifying as in
• 1:51:48
  cells and commiserating over um the situation and and sort of self reinforcing sometimes and
• 1:51:59
  I can't get out of this situation, so I'm you know, I might
• 1:52:02
  as well self destruct. UM I would say there's a bit of a correlation
• 1:52:09
  there as well. You know, if you start telling if you start telling
• 1:52:14
  men that having a self interest makes them toxic, you take away all of
• 1:52:20
  their avenues for recovery and growth, and when they're in a circumstance where they
• 1:52:26
  are socially isolated, you know, and if you and look at it,
• 1:52:31
  look at it like that, UM, I would say that ray Wynconnell is
• 1:52:36
  the the Harvey Kellogg of the the intersection of gender issues in psychology, So
• 1:52:45
  that that would reductively suggest as only one of them, Well, that's that's
• 1:52:50
  Harvey Kellogg's not the only one that screwed up dietetics. There are several people
• 1:52:55
  that did that. Kellogg had his thing, But like there are the cons
• 1:53:00
  sept of all fat being bad and being the thing that makes you fat.
• 1:53:04
  For instance, that was extremely detrimental. Like there's a huge difference between the
• 1:53:11
  fat that you get from a fatty piece of beef and the fact that you
• 1:53:15
  get in an avocado or a cashew nut, for instance, or salmon.
• 1:53:20
  So like that's you know, that's another one. Like so there were several
• 1:53:24
  people along the line that had their contributions that were bad. But I think
• 1:53:30
  those two things that Kellogg did really screwed up a lot of medicine because one
• 1:53:35
  cut the boundary of between is this generally beneficial and is this socially preferred?
• 1:53:46
  And the other one dramatically changed people's dietary habits forever. If that makes sense.
• 1:53:57
  Yeah, no, it absolutely does. And you know, knowing what
• 1:54:00
  we know now about the food pyramid, it should have been turned up right.
• 1:54:06
  And you know, again it's it's this consensus around what quote unquote the
• 1:54:14
  science says, right, because what we are learning is that it's really just
• 1:54:19
  what they want you to think. What what the what what stock needs to
• 1:54:26
  be sold? You know what I mean, Like it's not it's nothing about
• 1:54:30
  what actually is going to help us, you know, And so you should
• 1:54:36
  always be skeptical. Skeptical for instance, when people start talking about does science
• 1:54:43
  just just saying right, exactly, science is about experimentation fundamentally. It's it's
• 1:54:49
  about applying theories to experiments and observations and such. And everyone's free to perform
• 1:54:58
  their own experiments when it comes to diet, and people have been doing that
• 1:55:02
  for a long not just one hundred years since Kellogg delivered his right marochesto,
• 1:55:10
  but for all of human history, and people can perform their own experiments and
• 1:55:14
  see how it works. And it does work differently with different people. Some
• 1:55:16
  people require different levels of of of carbohydrates in order to find the diet that
• 1:55:25
  keeps them, that keeps them healthy. And people have been performing these experiments
• 1:55:30
  for forever. But it's it's that versus this this constant dare I say,
• 1:55:36
  misinformation we've been getting for the hundred years of nonsense ever since the Kelloggs tried
• 1:55:45
  to tell us that it's all about the carbohydrates and right, and it's it's
• 1:55:50
  it's an absolute force to say that we have science or doctors that Dad believe
• 1:55:56
  in, you know, helping people, if we don't even have like any
• 1:56:01
  real studies any real like science behind nutrition, you know what I mean,
• 1:56:10
  because there's not well, there's always money behind it. That's part of the
• 1:56:13
  problem. And there's always a like if if you're trying to prove that,
• 1:56:19
  um what you want to sell to the public is beneficial to them, you
• 1:56:23
  will find a scientist who can organize methodology and arrange definitions and so on to
• 1:56:30
  make their research show that even if it's not true, right, right,
• 1:56:34
  and that that happens, like even the tobacco industry has done that in the
• 1:56:39
  past, like it and and there were studies that showed which cigarettes were better
• 1:56:44
  for you, um, like and we now know that sorry, it's smoke.
• 1:56:49
  Smoke inhalation is unhealthy. It doesn't matter where the smoke comes from.
• 1:56:53
  There is no such thing as healthy smoke inhalation, right, And so you
• 1:56:58
  know it doesn't like you're not going to get one brand of cigarettes and have
• 1:57:01
  a healthy smoke. Sorry, Like it's okay to have a vice, but
• 1:57:06
  don't pretend it's healthy, you know. And is this the same thing with
• 1:57:10
  Like we have all these studies about how chocolate is good for you. Well,
• 1:57:15
  yeah, if you don't put any sugar in it. But if you
• 1:57:17
  go out and buy a bunch of Hershey Bars and eat those. Yes,
• 1:57:20
  you're getting so antioxidants, but the damage the sugar is going to do to
• 1:57:24
  your body because you're eating a blow to sugar, and that's where it's gonna
• 1:57:28
  go, or at least that's where it goes on me. Is you know
• 1:57:32
  that's that's not necessarily going to make those candy bars a health food, you
• 1:57:38
  know, and a five year old may not get that, like which I
• 1:57:43
  had to deal one time at work with a phone call from my mother to
• 1:57:46
  get so I could explain to my kid that just because I read an article
• 1:57:54
  that says that chocolate is good for your heart doesn't mean he should use his
• 1:57:58
  Rhese's cups before his enter and Casey wouldn't have room for the Reese's cups later
• 1:58:01
  on old logic, the red one's good for your heart, he has antioxidants,
• 1:58:10
  but a glass a gallon is not. Yeah, yeah, And as
• 1:58:17
  I say the same thing about like dark beer as opposed to say wheat beer,
• 1:58:23
  um, dark hops and and it's the sulfur in it is good for
• 1:58:28
  your heart. But again that's a beer, not a twenty four pack.
• 1:58:34
  Um, you know, unless like I had a had a family friend that
• 1:58:40
  had a six pack of night didn't get tipsy or anything. Um, but
• 1:58:45
  if if I told you his last name, you'd be like, oh,
• 1:58:46
  that guys German. You know, so he is he had some evolutionary predisposition
• 1:58:54
  to be able to handle a little more beer. Um. If we'd have
• 1:58:58
  done that with maybe whiskey, it might have hit him differently, you know.
• 1:59:02
  But in any case, Yeah, all of this stuff, Like we
• 1:59:05
  look at this and our society will debate this stuff in terms of dietetics and
• 1:59:13
  other physical health, you know, like people will be really open to listening
• 1:59:17
  to well, we have this information, but there's also this information, Like
• 1:59:23
  I learned when I talk to my doctor about it, I'm not really I
• 1:59:27
  don't like wine. I like beer, can't really have it anymore, but
• 1:59:30
  I do like it, but I don't really like wine. And I'm like,
• 1:59:32
  do I have to drink wine to get the effect? And he's like,
• 1:59:35
  well, you could get it from grape juice, But grape juice has
• 1:59:40
  a lot of sugar. So if I find the grape juice that has no
• 1:59:44
  sugar added, I'm sort of there's a happy medium there. I'm still getting
• 1:59:47
  like the natural fruit, toast from the fruit. But you know, I
• 1:59:54
  don't have to drink I don't like the taste of wine, so I don't
• 1:59:58
  have to drink something I don't like the taste of. Right. But all
• 2:00:02
  of that said, like those things, like when we start talking about those
• 2:00:06
  things as a society, nobody comes along and says, oh, well,
• 2:00:11
  you hate hops. You're talking about whine. You hate hops. Shame on
• 2:00:15
  you. No, that's like that'd be weird, right, But as soon
• 2:00:21
  as we start talking about well, these are the experiences that have resulted from
• 2:00:28
  this narrative that a particular behavior is bad only when males do it, and
• 2:00:34
  it's it's maybe it's not a bad behavior at all, or maybe it's a
• 2:00:40
  bad behavior, but it's also bad when females do it. And we start
• 2:00:44
  debating that, people are like, well, you hate women. No,
• 2:00:47
  we're talking about behavior. We're not talking about gender. We're telling you that
• 2:00:53
  if we're talking about behavior, gender is kind of irrelevant. Either the behavior
• 2:00:58
  is bad or good, or detrimental or not detrimental, harmful, not harmful,
• 2:01:01
  beneficial not beneficial. We got to take the gender out of it.
• 2:01:06
  And as soon as we start talking about taking the gender out of it.
• 2:01:10
  We're accused of hating women. That is where I guess you couldn't say you
• 2:01:15
  couldn't find an equivalent to Harvey Kellogg because gender identitarians are worse. They have
• 2:01:24
  a shaming tactic that can be used to silence debate of their proclamations. We
• 2:01:30
  have. We have a super chat from yesterday that is after after Brian was
• 2:01:38
  done reading the super chats. So I'm going to read it, but it
• 2:01:40
  was from yesterday, So it's Plain Dane yesterday at seven twenty gave us five
• 2:01:45
  dollars instead. I'm not Christian. I grew up atheist. So anybody that
• 2:01:48
  was listening to yesterday's show probably knows what that meant. It probably has to
• 2:01:53
  do with the previous Plain Dane comment that he did read, which was this
• 2:02:00
  was all about the G Mafia. The show is all about the G Mafia,
• 2:02:03
  and there was some discussion about research and such on gender dysphoria and the
• 2:02:12
  effects of hormones and stuff like that. In the previous comment. There's a
• 2:02:15
  big, long comment. I'm not going to read it, but I'm sure
• 2:02:19
  somebody may have come along and said, whether your perspective is judeo Christian thinking
• 2:02:25
  where this is another thing that happens with when you talk about issues of sexuality,
• 2:02:30
  whether it's gay straight sexuality and there's that spectrum, or whether it's health
• 2:02:43
  related like in terms of circumcision or STDs, s TIS promisecuity and loyalty and
• 2:02:51
  things like that. As soon as you start talking about that stuff, people
• 2:02:55
  want to insert religion into it, even if religion is not part of the
• 2:02:59
  discussion. You see that in abortion discussions too. Like my perspective, I
• 2:03:03
  am religious, but my perspective on abortion has um survived a journey through a
• 2:03:11
  variety of religious outlooks that didn't necessarily coincide with the Judeo Christian outlook Um like,
• 2:03:17
  I used to be a witch, so that that that's very very much
• 2:03:23
  not a anti abortion stance religion. You know what do you mean used to
• 2:03:29
  be I used to be a witch. I'm not a witch. I do
• 2:03:32
  not weigh that I weigh significantly more than a duck right now. I'm like
• 2:03:35
  on a diet. I'm halfway through fifty pounds of weight loss, so I
• 2:03:41
  have lost twenty five of those fifty pounds. I'm happy so other people into
• 2:03:47
  a duck. I do occasionally. I do occasionally turn people into mimes,
• 2:03:58
  at least feminists. I've had them pantomime absolute shock for five minutes without saying
• 2:04:03
  a single thing after something I've come up with. Um but and and I
• 2:04:10
  have flattened a few as well. So I do turn people into pancakes,
• 2:04:13
  but not ducks. Um but but I am like if anybody asks, I
• 2:04:19
  am Christian, that is my religion. It is completely not the reason why
• 2:04:27
  I am anti abortion. That's all based on legal standards that currently exist and
• 2:04:33
  being consistent in terms of how we treat living human organisms. Um. And
• 2:04:41
  looking at that, that's that it wouldn't matter. I could be an atheist
• 2:04:45
  and I would still be anti abortion based on the existing legal standards. Until
• 2:04:50
  you know, you you can argue that it's okay for me to execute my
• 2:04:55
  neighbor for parking in my spot, you know, um, because that,
• 2:04:59
  like most of the those arguments, basically would do the same thing. So,
• 2:05:04
  but that said, I I'm not surprised that playing Dane had to correct
• 2:05:13
  somebody saying all this that's just Judeo Christian thinking. You know, like,
• 2:05:15
  you can't dismiss it that easily. First of all, you still have to
• 2:05:19
  prove that it's wrong. But second of all, there are lots of things
• 2:05:24
  that are outside of the religious outlook that can influence someone's opinion on sexual issues,
• 2:05:30
  reproductive issues, anything that might have a code of ethics attached to it,
• 2:05:35
  and anything that has your actions can have impact on the people around you
• 2:05:44
  would have a need for or a relation to a code of ethics attached to
• 2:05:48
  it, Like anything that you do driving your car has a code of ethics
• 2:05:54
  attached to it, you know, like you don't do stupid things that can
• 2:05:58
  cause you to get into accidents or other people code of ethics. So you
• 2:06:02
  really really can't just narrow it down to religion and non religion. That doesn't
• 2:06:06
  work. HBr Talk two sixty six e Meredith g gave us five dollars and
• 2:06:13
  said, for this particular show, Honey for the Badgers, I always feel
• 2:06:16
  more informed after your interesting discussions. Michael Emrig Windberg gave us fifteen dollars and
• 2:06:24
  said, you don't even need abuse or victimization, just having a lonely childhood
• 2:06:28
  or being romantically starved for long enough for whatever reason, for your worth in
• 2:06:32
  the eyes of others to tank. Ultimately you're cast out of everywhere but a
• 2:06:39
  few specific communities. Some people get stuck in self hatred, some people choke
• 2:06:43
  to death in their self hating curses, and a very small number will cope
• 2:06:46
  by externalizing said self hatred. Maybe just saying, if we could help deal
• 2:06:53
  with the reasons for the self hatred, we can start by not dumping hate
• 2:06:56
  on people who are pushed away from everyone they come across already we could mitigate
• 2:07:00
  these three problems. Instead, we focus on only one of them, and
• 2:07:03
  the only solution we come up with is to take a number of people with
• 2:07:08
  heavy externalized views and lock them in with a large number of introverts who are
• 2:07:14
  desperate for something but I hate myself. Kind of like taking a bunch of
• 2:07:19
  people with an infectious disease and locking them up with a bunch of extremely vulnerable
• 2:07:24
  people. If he has a goal to ask where did all these corpses come
• 2:07:27
  from? Look in the goddamn mirror. And it's a very good point,
• 2:07:32
  you know. It is something that I first noticed in high school. Being
• 2:07:42
  not popular can make someone unpopular, meaning that you don't have to be disliked,
• 2:07:51
  you just have to not have evidence of being socially included. And it
• 2:07:58
  snowballs or be disliked by the right person. Right, Well, just just
• 2:08:03
  having one ten foot pole mark on you is enough, Like everybody gets out
• 2:08:09
  there ten footpolls, so and so it doesn't want to associate with that guy.
• 2:08:13
  Well obviously we shouldn't either. And it's compounded by you know, women's
• 2:08:18
  in group bias and their clustering behavior. So if Susie is nervous about this
• 2:08:24
  guy, Julie doesn't ask for evidence. She just becomes nervous about him too,
• 2:08:31
  without any reason other than the fact that Susie is nervous about him.
• 2:08:35
  Susie might just be high strung, right, or Susie might be an asshole,
• 2:08:41
  like you never know, Susie might be related to him. Yeah,
• 2:08:46
  maybe Susie did something to him and she's nervous because she doesn't want people to
• 2:08:50
  find out. But Julie doesn't have any of that information. But now that
• 2:08:54
  Julie doesn't like that guy, Sarah's not going to talk to him, right,
• 2:08:58
  And now you have the completely unrelated person doesn't know Susy doesn't know the
• 2:09:03
  origin of the dislike that is repeating it for no reason whatsoever, h exactly,
• 2:09:11
  And so this phenomenon of this sisterhood. Right, Like I say that
• 2:09:16
  it doesn't exist, but it does to an extent. Right. There is
• 2:09:22
  no camaraderie between women, um, unconditionally right. Um, But what they
• 2:09:31
  will do is use it, just like proxy violence that they use men for.
• 2:09:39
  They'll do the same thing with females. They will take that friendship and
• 2:09:45
  weaponize it at any given moment. Right because it's not it's not. Yeah,
• 2:09:54
  it's not a friendship. It's just like the frenemy ship. It's a
• 2:10:01
  lot of women's friendships are utilitarian. It's sad, exactly, like exactly.
• 2:10:05
  I can't count how many times I've thought I had a friend and I actually
• 2:10:09
  had somebody who wanted to know me. Because my dad was a school teacher,
• 2:10:13
  my mom was on city council. My brother was cute, um,
• 2:10:16
  and my brother was adorable. Like, he had groupies. He was in
• 2:10:22
  a band so and and he was very he's very talented. Um, but
• 2:10:28
  so he had groupies. He had screaming groupies and grouping groupies. Um.
• 2:10:33
  But uh, like so I had I had some friends that were definitely not
• 2:10:37
  my friends. Um. So I saw a lot of that. But but
• 2:10:41
  this type of sisterhood where they will is what they used to um um pontificate
• 2:10:52
  the negative stereotypes about men amongst their friends. Right, oh yeah, that
• 2:10:58
  that is how they use the quote unquote sisterhood. Right, it's it's negativity
• 2:11:03
  against men at any cost. But you have to also fall in line,
• 2:11:09
  right, like, if you're not one of us, you're against us,
• 2:11:13
  and you might as well be one of these guys that we're just going to
• 2:11:16
  accuse because you don't like that exactly, you know, queen bee shit,
• 2:11:22
  yeah yeah, and unfortunately the Queen Bee doesn't make honey. Um, Vegan
• 2:11:30
  game Gains gave us five dollars. Almost read that games like video games,
• 2:11:35
  but it's gains like gai n s guessing it's vegan games. I don't I
• 2:11:41
  doubt it. Um, I don't know. Um gave us five dollars and
• 2:11:46
  said, la la la, I'm sterilized, La la la. I'm sterilized
• 2:11:50
  la la. Like okay, oh, that's the one where somebody can't do
• 2:12:00
  paternity fraught against against the other. There's that. Well, but I mean
• 2:12:05
  it won't stop them from trying. No, I won't stop them from trying.
• 2:12:07
  Um. So there we go. That's all of our super chows really
• 2:12:13
  quick, resurrect the tab where I have rumble and see if we have any
• 2:12:20
  special chats there that I should read. We don't have any paid ones.
• 2:12:24
  Um we have. Wow, there's a lot of discussion there this time,
• 2:12:35
  a lot of comments good. Um, so I'm just kind of who has
• 2:12:41
  the dot matrix printer? Oh my god, I forgot about those. My
• 2:12:46
  cat used to um be horribly offended at the dot matrix printer and I had
• 2:12:54
  to lock the cat out of the room if I wanted to print anything and
• 2:12:56
  not have the cat knocked the paper off track by attacking the printer and whacking
• 2:13:01
  at it repeatedly, just trying to make the fucking thing work. Well,
• 2:13:09
  it's yeah, that was another problem, Like all of a sudden it would
• 2:13:13
  just stop feeding. You're like, what the fuck? Um? But then
• 2:13:16
  again, you know, my first laser printer was like super slow in comparison
• 2:13:22
  today's printers. It printed four pages a minute. My dad had one at
• 2:13:28
  the same time that was lightning fast by comparison, it printed eight pages a
• 2:13:31
  minute. Um. But uh but yeah, um, we did have some
• 2:13:37
  interference. I think it was microphone interference. I couldn't couldn't figure out what
• 2:13:41
  was causing that noise. Um, but I don't think it was at my
• 2:13:46
  end, so there wasn't really anything I could do about it. Um.
• 2:13:52
  Let's see when we have wait, you can only displays rushing upon knowledge of
• 2:14:01
  intent and context of displayment. Okay, so I think we were talking that
• 2:14:05
  was when we were talking about, um, maybe therapy. At What I
• 2:14:16
  was trying to get across in regard to when when guys talk about their experiences
• 2:14:24
  in therapy and they hit get hit back with the toxic masculinity thing is,
• 2:14:28
  why would you tell somebody what you're thinking if the only thing you're getting back
• 2:14:35
  is judgment you know, no advice, no help, no recognition that your
• 2:14:43
  experiences might trigger your feelings and so on, Like, why would you expect
• 2:14:48
  that person to be able to help you in any way? All shame on
• 2:14:52
  you. You think that, shame on you, like, and that's it.
• 2:14:56
  You just have to stop thinking that way, you know, like that's
• 2:15:01
  not helpful. Um. Yeah. In cell is one of the most circular
• 2:15:05
  slurs I've ever heard in my life. Well, yeah, um, you're
• 2:15:09
  an in cell because you hate women. You hate women because you can't get
• 2:15:11
  any You can't get any because you're wrong because you aren't esthetically pleasing to women.
• 2:15:18
  Yeah, that's that's kind of um. Yeah, but again that that's
• 2:15:24
  just because they are not correctly using the term. And again it's it's again,
• 2:15:33
  it's just become a slander It's a slanderous term towards men. Men that
• 2:15:39
  I don't like, men that I can't get, right, because it doesn't
• 2:15:43
  even matter if they're attractive, because I'm sure, look, look there's a
• 2:15:50
  lid for every pot, right, right, But but just because he doesn't
• 2:15:56
  want you doesn't mean that he can't get sex. You're I'm trying to reframe
• 2:16:03
  and keep it PG, but you know, it's just women's entitlement that is
• 2:16:07
  really at the apex here, because what they're saying is you're you should.
• 2:16:16
  I can't even frame it properly because my mind is just well, we have
• 2:16:20
  a whole spectrum of things going on there with women. And then there are
• 2:16:24
  some things that like, for instance, assuming that a woman's value is based
• 2:16:33
  on the level of attention that she gets and who she gets it from has
• 2:16:37
  made women less likely to accept attention from sources that aren't going to socially advance
• 2:16:43
  them. Right, So you have women who are focused on social advancement will
• 2:16:48
  behave a certain way, and it is more likely for a woman to be
• 2:16:52
  focused on social advancement than to not be focused on social advancement. And then
• 2:16:58
  you teach guys that women who are more focused on social advancement should be more
• 2:17:03
  valuable to them than women who are not. Well, then there are going
• 2:17:09
  to be women who might be willing to form relationships starting with friendships and moving
• 2:17:15
  forward from there because they're not more focused on social advancements. They want to
• 2:17:22
  connect with people that have things in common with them and things like that that
• 2:17:26
  might fly under the radar of a lot of guys because they're not the women
• 2:17:31
  that those guys have been told of value, you know. And at the
• 2:17:35
  same time, the women they have been told to value have been told not
• 2:17:39
  to value them, so they're guaranteed to get mistreated. That puts them in
• 2:17:43
  a situation where they're they're handicapped in terms of forming relationships. And instead of
• 2:17:52
  saying, hey, have you considered that maybe you're looking in the wrong place?
• 2:17:56
  Have you considered that maybe there's there's other factors going on in your life
• 2:18:03
  that need to be resolved before you start on this path, you know or
• 2:18:07
  even just have you considered, um, expanding your interests and expanding you know,
• 2:18:13
  so and so in your life, or maybe stopping doing this one thing
• 2:18:18
  or you know, any of that. It's shame on you for wanting female
• 2:18:24
  attention, Shame on you for not giving women your attention, you know,
• 2:18:28
  in the same sentence, and like that's in a nutshell, toxic masculinity is
• 2:18:35
  shaming men for not worshiping women enough and shaming men for worshiping women too much.
• 2:18:41
  Yeah, it's a complete fabrication of feminism, right, And this is
• 2:18:46
  what I was going to say before, like, um, this this hyper
• 2:18:52
  focus on quote unquote in cells, it really shows you, you know,
• 2:19:01
  like where they're paying attention to, right, They're they're paying so much attention
• 2:19:05
  to these small percentage of the male population that may have some kind of impact
• 2:19:13
  which hasn't really been proven at all. Right, yet they won't look at
• 2:19:22
  the real reason why these things really exist. And it's it's it's like it's
• 2:19:30
  might that mean when you when you point your finger at somebody, you have
• 2:19:33
  four three pink fingers pointing back at you, right, yeah, yeah,
• 2:19:39
  Well, and we look at it, we look at things as one dimensional
• 2:19:43
  things way too often. Like you know, for me, um, there's
• 2:19:46
  a spectrum of health problems that I've been dealing with that you know, a
• 2:19:52
  lot of them are things that you know, feminists make a big deal about
• 2:19:56
  women not having access to certain medications to treat them. But when I discussed
• 2:20:01
  these problems with my doctor, I discovered that actually a significant number of them
• 2:20:05
  trace back to diet and exercise and a dysfunctional approach to diet an exercise,
• 2:20:15
  or a lackadaisical which was more of my problem, a lackadasical approach to diet
• 2:20:20
  an exercise, which I had lapsed into during the COVID crisis because I was
• 2:20:24
  doing everything else but take care of myself, which you know, you get
• 2:20:30
  into that pattern sometimes and it's it's not even a gender issue, like men
• 2:20:35
  and women both do this, and it's just during time of crisis, you
• 2:20:41
  have other things to focus on and that's what you do. Right So now,
• 2:20:46
  I, like I said, I'm in the process of losing about fifty
• 2:20:48
  pounds and there is all these other health problems that I could have said,
• 2:20:56
  well, I I want the drugs for this, want painkillers, I want
• 2:21:01
  birth control pills, I want you know, blah blah blah, or you
• 2:21:05
  know, it could have explored my doctor's advice and started working on the underlying
• 2:21:11
  cause of those problems. Well that's what I did, and I've noticed that
• 2:21:16
  he was right. As I've lost the first twenty five pounds, I've noticed
• 2:21:22
  a significant reduction in the symptoms that i was all worried about. So there's
• 2:21:26
  there's other things going on, Like I've actually had to take a medical DNA
• 2:21:30
  test for some things, and that it's it's a ten week waiting period,
• 2:21:35
  so like I have no information on that for anybody, but a lot of
• 2:21:41
  times when you see a problem like that, like basically, my doctor said,
• 2:21:45
  all these things might be happening to you because you're too fat. Let's
• 2:21:48
  take care of that. Let's get that out of the way, and we'll
• 2:21:52
  do this other testing, but let's eliminate that because if it's a cause,
• 2:21:56
  you could have relief without throwing a bunch of chemicals into your system again.
• 2:22:00
  And women don't listen to that most of the time. Most women are like,
• 2:22:05
  you just call me fat, you asshole. Like women don't listen,
• 2:22:11
  right, they don't want to listen. They think they fucking know everything.
• 2:22:16
  They don't want to be wrong, right, And so women, when women
• 2:22:22
  get into a situation like that, it get trapped in it. Right now,
• 2:22:26
  if you look at them, the in cel phenomenon, right, some
• 2:22:31
  people are in that situation for some reasons, other people in that situation for
• 2:22:35
  other reasons. The things that I could ask for drugs for um can be
• 2:22:39
  caused by being too fat. There are other types of health problems that can
• 2:22:45
  also cause them. But if the person coming in seeking help for it is
• 2:22:50
  fat, that's the first thing you look at because it's the most likely cause.
• 2:22:54
  You eliminate that cause before you go onto those other causes, because some
• 2:22:58
  of those other causes require more intrusive treatments. Imposing chemicals on the body is
• 2:23:05
  a more intrusive treatment than improving your nutrition and getting better exercise is, you
• 2:23:11
  know. And it's the same thing with if you look at people who are
• 2:23:18
  maybe their marriage is on the rocks, or people who like in cells,
• 2:23:22
  are going through a period of time where they're socially isolated. Any of those
• 2:23:26
  different things that can happen with somebody, a person who has gotten into a
• 2:23:31
  pattern of dating people that treat them like shit over and over again, and
• 2:23:35
  that's male or female. I've seen it happen to both sexes. There's always
• 2:23:41
  an underlying cause to that. It's not always the same with every person,
• 2:23:46
  but you look at the details of their life and you can find those causes
• 2:23:50
  and help them alleviate the cause. Getting rid of the cause or coming to
• 2:23:58
  terms with the cause and having a more functional response to the cause can then
• 2:24:03
  solve the effect. Right, Yeah, but instead, what do we do?
• 2:24:07
  We start stereotyping. We start lumping people in together, we start throwing
• 2:24:13
  accusations at them, we start pathologizing normal things about them, like having caring
• 2:24:20
  about themselves, caring about how people treat them, carrying about how people view
• 2:24:24
  them, and so on. Those are normal human behaviors. But as soon
• 2:24:30
  as in cells do it, it's uh, you know, self self centered
• 2:24:33
  or m entitled or you know, otherwise dangerous and scary and misogynistic. You
• 2:24:41
  only care what women think of you because you're a misogynist, Like just stupid,
• 2:24:45
  right, So I guess that's partly why I wanted to explore the article
• 2:24:48
  we went over. It's why I wanted to explore the research. We're going
• 2:24:54
  down a very dark path in terms of how we treat people who are experiencing
• 2:25:01
  psychological pain and suffering and social exclusion due to a wide variety of causes that
• 2:25:09
  may be completely unrelated to each other sometimes and we're narrowing them down to this
• 2:25:16
  one tiny percentage that does that have a particularly dysfunctional response that has outside causes
• 2:25:28
  that have nothing to do with being an in cell. So that's that's something
• 2:25:33
  that we definitely need to see stop. But with that, I think I've
• 2:25:39
  got all of our super chats done. I've got all of our I don't
• 2:25:43
  see any super whatever. The rumble rant, the paid rumble rant is called
• 2:25:48
  I don't think there's a special name for it. And that's all of our
• 2:25:52
  super chows as well. So I'm gonna take us out of the show.
• 2:25:56
  We'll get started on the after show, the patron and the after Show.
• 2:26:00
  UM and I picked for the patron Only after Show. UM, an article
• 2:26:05
  that's kind of sometimes I go lighthearted, sometimes I go rage fuel. This
• 2:26:11
  is sort of in between. This is stupidity, feminist stupidity. So the
• 2:26:15
  title of the Patron Only after Show is cheating equals feminism question mark. Yeah.
• 2:26:24
  Um. In the HBr Talk two sixty six, Patron Only after show.
• 2:26:28
  Uh and and that is that is as far as I get to tell
• 2:26:31
  you. I'm not gonna tell you what the article is. If you want
• 2:26:33
  to find that out, then then go to feed the Badger dot com and
• 2:26:39
  look through our menu and find out how to become one of our patrons and
• 2:26:43
  you can join us in the patron only after shows. So there and with
• 2:26:48
  that, I will thank everybody who listened to the show. Um, thanks
• 2:26:54
  everybody who was here for the discussion, and thanks to everybody who worked in
• 2:27:00
  the background to make HBr Talk happen. And good night all