Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1261 - Hooked on Games: How to Help Kids Break Free from Addictive Gaming (feat. Scott Novus, former VP at Disney & gaming expert)

Transcript

#1261 - Hooked on Games: How to Help Kids Break Free from Addictive Gaming (feat. Scott Novus, former VP at Disney & gaming expert) · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:06
Speaker 1: It's not every day that we have a former vice
0:08
Speaker 1: president at the Walt Disney Company on the Happy Families Podcast. Today, though,
0:11
Speaker 1: is the day where that's happening. Scott Novus is a
0:14
Speaker 1: video game industry veteran, the founder of Game Truck, the
0:17
Speaker 1: largest mobile video game party company in the United States,
0:21
Speaker 1: and a dad of three. He's worked with Disney, He's
0:24
Speaker 1: created best selling games, He's authored books, and I could
0:27
Speaker 1: go on and on about Scott Novos's pedigree. Today's a
0:33
Speaker 1: podcast you do not want to miss if you have
0:36
Speaker 1: children who game, which is pretty much everyone. Welcome to
0:40
Speaker 1: the Happy Families Podcast, Real parenting solutions every day on
0:43
Speaker 1: Australia's most downloaded paring podcast. My name is doctor Justin
0:47
Speaker 1: Coulson and I am so excited about my conversation Scott Novis.
0:51
Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for your time.
0:54
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, thank you for having me here, Justin.
0:56
Speaker 2: I appreciate it.
0:57
Speaker 1: Right now, I reckon there's about fourteen and a half
0:59
Speaker 1: fifteen million parents who really hate you because they can't
1:02
Speaker 1: get their kids off the games that you've invented. I'm
1:04
Speaker 1: obviously stirring a little bit here, but this is an area.
1:08
Speaker 1: Ninety two percent of Australian parents are worried about the
1:10
Speaker 1: extent which their children are on screens, whether it's social
1:12
Speaker 1: media or gaming. And while I'm on this provocative bent,
1:18
Speaker 1: there's a guy called William Sue. He's a former game developer,
1:20
Speaker 1: founder of Storm eight. He knows about this as well.
1:22
Speaker 1: He's launched more than fifty mobile games collectively. They've been
1:25
Speaker 1: downloaded more than a billion times. They've generated billions of
1:28
Speaker 1: dollars in sales. And I have a quote here from
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Speaker 1: a New York Times essay where he says this, I'm
1:35
Speaker 1: very familiar with game addiction, as that's what I thought
1:38
Speaker 1: about every day for more than a decade. In brackets,
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Speaker 1: he says, we sold the company in twenty twenty hed
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Speaker 1: I hired product managers and engineers to track everything players
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Speaker 1: did and analyze their behavior. Using the data we collected,
1:50
Speaker 1: we experimented with every feature of our games to see
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Speaker 1: which versions allowed us to extract the most time and
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Speaker 1: money from our players. For us, game addiction was by design.
2:02
Speaker 1: It meant success for our business. That's the ultimate goal,
2:07
Speaker 1: he says. This is the compelling statement that really grabs me.
2:10
Speaker 1: That's the ultimate goal. To build habit forming games that
2:12
Speaker 1: have players coming back every day. In other words, it
2:15
Speaker 1: takes away the decision making. We wanted people to reach
2:18
Speaker 1: for their phones first thing in the morning and jump
2:20
Speaker 1: right into our games just as they check their social
2:22
Speaker 1: media and emails. And as I'm reading that. You're not
2:25
Speaker 1: in your head. And this is not a personal attack
2:28
Speaker 1: on you. It is a question around the game industry
2:31
Speaker 1: generally and the impact that it has on families. Now
2:35
Speaker 1: you talk to parents about how they can navigate this
2:38
Speaker 1: with their kids, it's almost like you've done a one
2:40
Speaker 1: eighty I guess in some ways. Talk to me about this,
2:44
Speaker 1: the complexity around this, and how kids can how families
2:49
Speaker 1: can have video game time but without the fighting.
2:52
Speaker 2: If it's okay, justin, I want to expand on what
2:54
Speaker 2: you're talking about because that just confirms everything that I know.
2:57
Speaker 2: So I appreciate it. I'm going to go back and
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Speaker 2: track down that article on add it to my portfolio.
3:02
Speaker 2: I have studied game addiction for a long time, not
3:05
Speaker 2: just recently. Addiction is a complicated topic because you have
3:09
Speaker 2: chemical dependency. I learned this from doctor Mark Gulston about
3:13
Speaker 2: what is addiction, and it turns out there's a psychological
3:16
Speaker 2: condition that people get into that is most easily described
3:20
Speaker 2: as despair. Like literally think of the word despair to unpair.
3:25
Speaker 2: It is painful to break all of your relationships. And
3:28
Speaker 2: there's three modes maladaptive strategies humans used to deal with that.
3:33
Speaker 2: So one of them is that people will think of
3:35
Speaker 2: it as a job environment. People quit, people can become
3:39
Speaker 2: reactive or toxic in the work environment, or people can
3:43
Speaker 2: drop into learned helplessness and numb out. Well, those extremes
3:47
Speaker 2: are tragic, right, Quitters suicide, people that become reactionary. What's
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Speaker 2: the extreme form of that violence. We've certainly seen a
3:55
Speaker 2: growth in that. And the last one is numbing becomes addiction. Now,
4:00
Speaker 2: when the data indicated for a long time that addictive
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Speaker 2: play was really limited to about seven percent of gamers
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Speaker 2: make three to seven percent, was a window the people
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Speaker 2: fell into that mode. But that radically changed in the
4:16
Speaker 2: last ten years. And what really got my attention is
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Speaker 2: you have these nine, ten eleven year old kids that
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Speaker 2: are demonstrating addictive behaviors, let's call them compulsive obsessive behaviors.
4:29
Speaker 2: What the heck? They don't have any of the hallmarks,
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Speaker 2: so it would indicate the emotional distress. They're not socially isolated,
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Speaker 2: they're not locked up. I mean they're like in loving
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Speaker 2: families that are supporting them. They're in schools, they're like,
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Speaker 2: nothing about their environment should predict this behavior. What is
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Speaker 2: going on? And what really came to my attention through
4:48
Speaker 2: Professor Jonathan Height's book, The Anxious Generation, was the awareness
4:52
Speaker 2: that exactly what's too indicated. They changed the algorithm they
4:56
Speaker 2: were developing to. The algorithm we were developing to is
5:00
Speaker 2: is called the self determination theory. It's part of Mihail
5:04
Speaker 2: check sent me High's flow. It has three components autonomy, mastery,
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Speaker 2: and relatedness. And I'll come back to that. What changed
5:15
Speaker 2: is they started developing too a different algorithm. As an
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Speaker 2: algorithm started coming out in early two thousands. They started
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Speaker 2: teaching it at Stanford and other schools, and it's called
5:25
Speaker 2: the Hook algorithm. And the Hook algorithm does something that
5:29
Speaker 2: is I don't agree with it, but it's exactly what
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Speaker 2: Sue talked about. We developed companies like we did the
5:38
Speaker 2: most insane thing ever as a population. We started valuing
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Speaker 2: companies on how much attention they could steal, not the
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Speaker 2: value they delivered to their users, and it started in
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Speaker 2: social media. It was only a matter of time before
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Speaker 2: it spread to games. Notice who talked about mobile games.
5:54
Speaker 2: He talked about like this was the turning point that
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Speaker 2: is wrecking everything. Is putting the Internet in kids' hands
6:02
Speaker 2: twenty four to seven. It's with them everywhere, and that
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Speaker 2: is radically different than the old laptop gaming and console
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Speaker 2: gaming where you weren't going to lug your TV around
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Speaker 2: with you, right, you just you got up and walked away.
6:16
Speaker 2: And also most of the games were barely ever online
6:20
Speaker 2: and they didn't need online to play. And so what
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Speaker 2: did they do with the hook algorithm? So there's a
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Speaker 2: couple of things that I think would help your audience
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Speaker 2: understand what is actually happening and why this is so
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Speaker 2: devastating for their kids. So do I have your permission
6:36
Speaker 2: to share? Because I want to back up so they
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Speaker 2: can understand, like why the hook algorithm is such a
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Speaker 2: problem for kids.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, just before you step into that, self determination theory
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Speaker 1: is the very foundation of pretty much all of the
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Speaker 1: work that I do. So happy families listeners are familiar
6:50
Speaker 1: with me talking about how children need to feel like
6:52
Speaker 1: they're getting a sense of progress and mastery. That's the
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Speaker 1: confidence need.
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Speaker 2: It's standing the familiar when you already know in your
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Speaker 2: audience know what I'm talking about.
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Speaker 1: And even that need for autonomy raight, the need to
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Speaker 1: feel choiceful. So that makes sense. But the hook algorithm,
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Speaker 1: which is, I know something that near Ale talks about
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Speaker 1: in his very popular book. That's something that we don't
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Speaker 1: talk about a whole lot here at all, the hijacking
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Speaker 1: of neural architecture by the world's smartest people from MIT
7:18
Speaker 1: and Stamford and so on. So let's step into that.
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Speaker 2: Okay, So humans are unique for a couple of reasons,
7:25
Speaker 2: a bunch of reasons, but there's two in particular. So
7:27
Speaker 2: number one, and I learned this from Gabermante and his
7:30
Speaker 2: book Scattered Minds. So this touches into how our brains develop,
7:35
Speaker 2: and it touches into ADHD but also neurodivergence, and what's
7:39
Speaker 2: not becoming the spectrum of autism is just how our
7:43
Speaker 2: brains developed. And step one is we are the only
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Speaker 2: animal that our brain quadruples in size after birth. Wales
7:50
Speaker 2: and elephants might be born with a bigger brain, but
7:53
Speaker 2: it doesn't get much bigger. Number two one the hit
7:56
Speaker 2: list of brain growth or chimpanzees with a doubling that
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Speaker 2: means fold increase, and by five years old, the average
8:02
Speaker 2: human has ninety percent of the brain size they're going
8:05
Speaker 2: to have as an adult, but more neural connections. That
8:10
Speaker 2: mean kids are just a little bundle of potential. And
8:12
Speaker 2: if you've ever seen that, like kindergartener, maybe learn how
8:15
Speaker 2: to throw a ball or kick or unskilled, that's it right,
8:19
Speaker 2: they are just ready to get wired up to get
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Speaker 2: good at something. Now. The second thing that makes humans
8:25
Speaker 2: unique in the mammalian species. Every other mammal goes from
8:29
Speaker 2: birth to reproductive age as fast as possible. Our neighbor's
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Speaker 2: dog was three years old when they had our labrador puppy,
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Speaker 2: Cookie three three years old, ready to reproduce. Humans don't
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Speaker 2: do that. We pause for seven years before puberty starts.
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Speaker 2: Seven years. What is happening in that seven year window, Well,
8:53
Speaker 2: there's some research that was done that indicates what's happening
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Speaker 2: for kids in that seven year window is that that
9:00
Speaker 2: is when we absorb our culture, not just the family.
9:05
Speaker 2: We're part of the community, like it goes all the
9:07
Speaker 2: way to the bones. That is where you're going to
9:09
Speaker 2: build your cultural identity. If we dropped you in let's
9:12
Speaker 2: say Japan before you know. In that seven year window,
9:17
Speaker 2: you will not only speak fluently and natively, you'll get
9:20
Speaker 2: the jokes, you'll know the food. You'll have a sense
9:23
Speaker 2: of the design and the tastes of it, the smells
9:25
Speaker 2: of it. You'll feel Japanese. If we pull you before nine,
9:29
Speaker 2: you'll lose it. If we add you after thirteen, you'll
9:32
Speaker 2: always feel like a foreigner, even if you learn to
9:34
Speaker 2: speak fluently. So there's some magic that's getting baked into kids' brains.
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Speaker 2: Now let's go to the hook algorithm. What are they doing?
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Speaker 2: We as humans don't learn the way we think we learn.
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Speaker 2: We have baked into us a little trial and error loop.
9:49
Speaker 2: And what's important about that is dopamine, which we all
9:52
Speaker 2: think is sort of the achievement or hormone, does something different.
9:56
Speaker 2: It really sparks learning. And when it's given in short
9:59
Speaker 2: little doses, doesn't create satisfaction justin it creates craving. So
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Speaker 2: if you take that little hit craving thing and you
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Speaker 2: look at the trial and error, what happens is this
10:14
Speaker 2: is about behaviors, not concepts, not intellectualism. We're talking like
10:19
Speaker 2: physical movement, things that you need to do. Think about
10:22
Speaker 2: picking up let's say a cricket bat. You're in Australia.
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Speaker 2: You're going to swing it a few times. What is
10:28
Speaker 2: your brain doing in those first few swings. It's experimenting,
10:31
Speaker 2: wait and feel. We're built for trial and error, and
10:35
Speaker 2: what you're trying to do is map my behavior to
10:38
Speaker 2: the results I get. And your brain is doing that
10:40
Speaker 2: below the level of conscious thought. You're almost not even
10:44
Speaker 2: aware that you're doing it. And so what the developers
10:47
Speaker 2: learned is that if the reward in feedback is unpredictable
10:52
Speaker 2: and variable, we can extend the window that you stay
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Speaker 2: in trial and error mode. What they did is they
11:01
Speaker 2: built an algorithm. It starts with step one, the queue.
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Speaker 2: So why does every app you install on your phone
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Speaker 2: ask to turn on notifications Because it's the beginning of
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Speaker 2: the hook cycle. You've got to queue you to do something.
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Speaker 2: Then you're going to do a thing. Then we're going
11:17
Speaker 2: to give you and this is the technical term, a
11:19
Speaker 2: variable ratio reward. It's unpredictable and it's tuned to be
11:24
Speaker 2: just the right amount to hold your attention, get you
11:27
Speaker 2: your dopamine hit that never let you master the algorithm.
11:32
Speaker 2: Then we're going to move you over to what's called investment,
11:35
Speaker 2: and if we're lucky, what will happen is you will
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Speaker 2: start self cuing like a cigarette attic reaching for a cigarette.
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Speaker 2: And the difference between self determination games and hook games
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Speaker 2: are self determination is you're building skills that produce mostly
11:53
Speaker 2: reliable results that you can build on, and you will
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Speaker 2: quote level up. You will use that skill to get
12:00
Speaker 2: a largely predictable outcome, and then we'll give you more
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Speaker 2: complex things to go after, and away you go. That's progress.
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Speaker 2: Hook other rooms give you illusions of progress, but what
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Speaker 2: they're really trying to do is keep you stuck in
12:14
Speaker 2: this trial and error loop, hammering your dopamine to maximize
12:18
Speaker 2: your craving to the point where you can't even put
12:22
Speaker 2: it down. And that's the behavior that is absolutely driving
12:27
Speaker 2: kids and parents and everyone bonkers. It's not a game anymore.
12:32
Speaker 2: It's not entertainment. Like literally what Sue said, it is
12:37
Speaker 2: how much money can we make stealing people's attention? And
12:41
Speaker 2: guess whose attention is almost vulnerable to being stolen?
12:44
Speaker 1: Your kids for the benefit of people who are not
12:47
Speaker 1: familiar with persuasive design elements. Would you mind sharing maybe
12:51
Speaker 1: half a dozen of the most common, the most popular
12:54
Speaker 1: persuasive design elements in the games that children play today.
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Speaker 2: Okay, so for me, I am not a designer of
13:02
Speaker 2: those games. And that's a fantastic question. So here's the
13:05
Speaker 2: hack I give parents that it would be like if
13:08
Speaker 2: you want to avoid them, there's three things you can do.
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Speaker 2: So one of them is it's simple, and I'm not
13:15
Speaker 2: trying to be Look, I don't own any stock in
13:17
Speaker 2: video game companies. I don't own a video game company,
13:20
Speaker 2: so I have no personal stake in this. But Number
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Speaker 2: one is buy your games, pay for the game. Be
13:26
Speaker 2: the customer of the developer, be the person that you're
13:29
Speaker 2: trying to satisfy. Number two, pick games that you can
13:32
Speaker 2: play offline that do not demand and always on internet connection.
13:37
Speaker 2: Remember what Sue said about, oh, we're optimizing everything about
13:40
Speaker 2: the user behavior. They can't do that if you're offline,
13:43
Speaker 2: they don't know what you're doing. So pick games that
13:46
Speaker 2: you could play in front of a couch and a
13:48
Speaker 2: TV with the internet off. Can you play that game?
13:51
Speaker 2: If you have to be online, You've got to be
13:53
Speaker 2: extremely cautious about what you're playing because you're dealing with
13:57
Speaker 2: a company that can outtrack everything you're doing and look
13:59
Speaker 2: at selling that to somebody the values it more than
14:03
Speaker 2: you do. And the other third hack is if you
14:07
Speaker 2: talk to your player and you ask them what is
14:12
Speaker 2: hard about this game for you? What do you find
14:13
Speaker 2: interesting or challenging if it's a skill based game. So
14:17
Speaker 2: let's take Minecraft. Okay, Minecraft generally and ninety nine percent
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Speaker 2: of the instance, I'm not aware of an instance where
14:24
Speaker 2: that's become addictive. The way these hook games are. Kids
14:28
Speaker 2: will talk about I'm learning to use redstone, I'm building something.
14:32
Speaker 2: They talk like project managers. They have a goal, they're
14:35
Speaker 2: trying to achieve something. They might be working with friends.
14:38
Speaker 2: They could take you in the game and show you
14:40
Speaker 2: what they're doing. It is like a little world they're building.
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Speaker 2: When they're dealing with a hook game, they start complaining
14:47
Speaker 2: almost instantly, this is unfair and this is broken, and
14:51
Speaker 2: this is where you see that like I can't ever
14:54
Speaker 2: remember seeing my kids rage spike a controller after playing Minecraft.
14:58
Speaker 2: But when you're in an addictive they don't even know
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Speaker 2: what they're doing. They have a hard time describing it,
15:03
Speaker 2: but they'll begin to tell you where the game is broken,
15:06
Speaker 2: or I can't sleep at night, or like it's almost
15:09
Speaker 2: like a trauma conversation. So one of the biggest clues
15:12
Speaker 2: is how does your child think about and discuss playing
15:16
Speaker 2: the game. And if they're using the language of progress,
15:20
Speaker 2: you're probably playing a good game. If they're using the
15:23
Speaker 2: language that talks about suffering or things that sound like
15:26
Speaker 2: suffering or unfairness, think of it this way. Do they
15:31
Speaker 2: sound empowered or do they sound like a victim. If
15:34
Speaker 2: they sound like a victim, get them away from that game.
15:36
Speaker 2: If they sound like they're developing skills and growing, that
15:40
Speaker 2: might be a game that is Spend some more time
15:43
Speaker 2: and understand what's going on there. There's a higher probability
15:46
Speaker 2: that's a safer game. But the mechanisms that I most
15:50
Speaker 2: see with the hook games are they hide critical elements
15:54
Speaker 2: off screen. There's nothing you can do as a player
15:58
Speaker 2: to control the probability of a better outcome. Like things
16:02
Speaker 2: just show up like here's a loot crate or here's
16:05
Speaker 2: a bunch of gems, go ahead and match it. Like
16:07
Speaker 2: the preconditions are masked from the player and they're just
16:10
Speaker 2: presented with another situation. They're presented with another situation. And look,
16:15
Speaker 2: we see this in social media right the number one
16:19
Speaker 2: variable racial reward is people's fickle approval. Go talk to
16:24
Speaker 2: people that are on social media, ask them what's the
16:26
Speaker 2: result you're gonna get on that post. They're like, I
16:28
Speaker 2: have no idea. It's all trial and error. I'm just
16:31
Speaker 2: gonna keep coming back until I get one that hits,
16:33
Speaker 2: and I'm gonna tune it. I'm gonna tweek it until oh,
16:35
Speaker 2: that doesn't work anymore. And the games are not doing
16:38
Speaker 2: that faster. More systematically is if the outcome is detached
16:43
Speaker 2: from the behavior, you only get that randomness reward. That's
16:47
Speaker 2: when you're in trouble.
16:56
Speaker 1: Scott, one of my favorite things to do when I'm
16:57
Speaker 1: presenting on screens and kids in a parent's setting. When
17:02
Speaker 1: I'm running, one of my presentations is to pull out
17:04
Speaker 1: the book Percy Jackson and the Lightning Thief. I'm sure
17:08
Speaker 1: you know it well, and there's this scene as Percy
17:11
Speaker 1: and Annabeth and Grover are racing across the United States.
17:14
Speaker 1: They're trying to save the world, trying to save his mom,
17:15
Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff. They end up in Las
17:17
Speaker 1: Vegas at the Lotus Hotel and Casino. They're exhausted, they
17:22
Speaker 1: need a break. They walk in and instead of freshening
17:26
Speaker 1: up and getting the rest that they need, they're drawn
17:29
Speaker 1: into the games room. This is games room, especially for kids,
17:33
Speaker 1: and Percy has this interaction where the whole it says,
17:37
Speaker 1: the whole lobby was a giant game room, and I'm
17:38
Speaker 1: not talking about cheesy old pac Man games or slot machines.
17:41
Speaker 1: Then he describes how incredible it was and how they
17:44
Speaker 1: started playing and he got really into it. And he's
17:46
Speaker 1: talking to this guy called Darren Daubrn and the guy
17:50
Speaker 1: keeps using words like groovy, and then as they're having
17:53
Speaker 1: this conversation, he realizes that he uses different language. He
17:58
Speaker 1: only feels like he's been two two weeks in the
18:00
Speaker 1: games room, but when he asks him what year it is,
18:03
Speaker 1: Darren says nineteen seventy seven. Then he meets someone from
18:06
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five, someone from nineteen ninety three. They all
18:09
Speaker 1: claimed they hadn't been in here very long, a few days,
18:11
Speaker 1: a few weeks at most. They didn't really know and
18:13
Speaker 1: they didn't care. And then the penny Drop says, this
18:16
Speaker 1: moment of insight, then it occurred to me, how long
18:19
Speaker 1: had I been here? It seemed like only a couple
18:21
Speaker 1: of hours, But was it I tried to remember why
18:23
Speaker 1: were we here? So I love this. He's completely forgotten
18:25
Speaker 1: that he's trying to save the world because he's so
18:27
Speaker 1: enmeshed in the game. He goes over to Annabeth, still
18:29
Speaker 1: building her city. Come on, I told her, We've got
18:32
Speaker 1: to get out of here. No response. I shook her, Annabeth.
18:35
Speaker 1: She looked up, annoyed. What we need to leave? This
18:39
Speaker 1: place is a trap, Anabeth. There are people here from
18:42
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy seven, kids who have never aged. You check
18:46
Speaker 1: in and you stay forever. What's your response?
18:50
Speaker 2: One of the groups of people and one of the
18:52
Speaker 2: reasons I do what I do. I coach use baseball
18:55
Speaker 2: for fourteen years, and I'm very passionate about reason good man,
18:58
Speaker 2: but also helping other men. Families are as good men.
19:01
Speaker 2: Moms will come to me because they've got a boy
19:03
Speaker 2: who's stuck in gaming, and by the time they're in
19:06
Speaker 2: their early twenties or mid twenties and they have become Hickey,
19:10
Speaker 2: Gamori or neat, not employed in education or training. That
19:15
Speaker 2: is a heavy lift to get a kid out of
19:18
Speaker 2: that room. But if we can reach them at the
19:20
Speaker 2: age we're talking about, if we can reach him in
19:23
Speaker 2: that magic window, that seven to thirteen, that seven year window,
19:28
Speaker 2: and give them a sense of purpose and direction and
19:32
Speaker 2: keep games as just an interesting challenge part of their lives,
19:35
Speaker 2: something fun to do, but not this sole purpose of
19:38
Speaker 2: their lives. We have a much better chance of preventing
19:41
Speaker 2: these kids from getting lost. We are missing, by some counts,
19:45
Speaker 2: six hundred thousand millennial men from the workforce, and gen
19:48
Speaker 2: Z's right on their heels, and Alpha right after him,
19:52
Speaker 2: and so I think that's a real thing. I think
19:54
Speaker 2: it's a real phenomenon in our economy, and we're seeing
19:57
Speaker 2: it globally. They're just they're checking out.
20:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the danceta of effect of that is you're
20:03
Speaker 1: not going to find somebody who's romantically interested in you,
20:05
Speaker 1: which makes it harder to form families, and it makes
20:07
Speaker 1: it harder to get the progression that's necessary to live
20:10
Speaker 1: a fulfilling and relational life.
20:12
Speaker 2: Right in the United States, sixty seven percent of college
20:17
Speaker 2: students are now women. And in my family, some of
20:20
Speaker 2: the girls that started asking where are the guys. Yeah,
20:25
Speaker 2: these are massive changes that are happening to our culture
20:28
Speaker 2: that have long term implications we don't fully understand yet.
20:31
Speaker 2: But I find it hard to believe that we could
20:33
Speaker 2: be blase about watching a huge chunk of the population
20:38
Speaker 2: just vanish.
20:39
Speaker 1: This place is a trappy checking you stay forever. I
20:41
Speaker 1: love it. Your father three. Have any of your children
20:45
Speaker 1: had compulsive, problematic, or even addictive tendencies when it comes
20:48
Speaker 1: to games? Clearly games have been a big part of
20:50
Speaker 1: your family's life.
20:51
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Well for me, it started with my oldest
20:56
Speaker 2: and we didn't get into we were really in that.
21:01
Speaker 2: Their version of cell phones were flip phones or sidekicks
21:05
Speaker 2: with texting like the internet smartphone. They were adult, not adults,
21:11
Speaker 2: but they had hit high school by the time the
21:15
Speaker 2: iPhone came out. It was too expensive to give it
21:17
Speaker 2: to them, so they didn't really get it till college.
21:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, it might all spend the same born in the
21:21
Speaker 1: light naughties and mid twenties now and just kind of
21:24
Speaker 1: a skyped that in a way that the younger kids didn't.
21:27
Speaker 2: Right, And I want to go back to the brain
21:29
Speaker 2: development and why it's different for a second, because the
21:33
Speaker 2: part of your head that protects you from these algorithms
21:36
Speaker 2: is your executive function. That doesn't begin to develop in
21:40
Speaker 2: humans until high school. So my kids, by the time
21:43
Speaker 2: they got smartphones were already protected from it because their
21:46
Speaker 2: brains were finishing developing. That when you're dealing with kids
21:48
Speaker 2: that are thirteen or younger, or sixteen or younger, they
21:51
Speaker 2: don't even have it yet. You as an adult or
21:54
Speaker 2: having a completely different experience with these games than your
21:56
Speaker 2: kids are. They don't have the circuitry in their heads
21:59
Speaker 2: to protect them from the algorithm, so they're even more vulnerable.
22:02
Speaker 2: So the issues that we have with my kids was
22:05
Speaker 2: understanding how to end game time. And this is something
22:09
Speaker 2: I've coached a lot of parents on is how does
22:12
Speaker 2: it video game end? But we know how board games end,
22:16
Speaker 2: we know how sports games end. But there's a million
22:18
Speaker 2: ways at games end, and some of them you can
22:20
Speaker 2: turn off, some of you can't even pause. And I
22:23
Speaker 2: don't know a single parent that would walk out into
22:27
Speaker 2: the middle of a baseball pitch while their kid is
22:29
Speaker 2: getting ready to throw a pitcher and graunded by the collar,
22:31
Speaker 2: going we're going to dinner now. It would be humiliating.
22:35
Speaker 2: Nobody would do that. But I see parents do that
22:38
Speaker 2: to their kids with video games because number one, all
22:41
Speaker 2: they see as a kid with headphones are going to screen.
22:43
Speaker 2: They have no idea they're playing with anyone. They have
22:46
Speaker 2: no idea they're playing against another team, and they're clueless
22:49
Speaker 2: that there's an audience. During COVID, we did thousands of
22:53
Speaker 2: online tournaments for high schools and colleges, isolated kids who
22:57
Speaker 2: couldn't go anywhere. We had nine spectators for every player.
23:01
Speaker 2: It was crazy. So for your child emotionally ripping them
23:06
Speaker 2: out of that environment, guess what it really them off
23:10
Speaker 2: because it would have set anybody to get yank out
23:12
Speaker 2: of the middle of work or lose work or whatever.
23:15
Speaker 2: And so most of the instruction I did was to
23:17
Speaker 2: help parents understand how to end game time without a fight.
23:21
Speaker 2: And the key was number one, know how the game ends.
23:25
Speaker 2: Number two, Negotiate with your kid how they're going to
23:28
Speaker 2: end before they begin, and give them a choice. Hey,
23:32
Speaker 2: we're in the car at five o'clock sharp, are you
23:34
Speaker 2: sure you want to jump in that online game with
23:36
Speaker 2: your friends? Uh, I'll play a Nintendo instead because I
23:39
Speaker 2: can pause that, I can stop it without stress. And
23:43
Speaker 2: the third one is a thing we do thousands of
23:46
Speaker 2: times every month. When it's a few minutes before game
23:49
Speaker 2: time is over. We flick the lights in the room.
23:52
Speaker 2: We don't yell at them We don't scream at them,
23:54
Speaker 2: we don't touch them. We flick the lights. Humans are
23:57
Speaker 2: super sensitive to peripheral vision. And when the entire lights
24:00
Speaker 2: in your rooms start going on and off, they're gonna
24:02
Speaker 2: look up. That's your cue. Gently touch them on the
24:05
Speaker 2: shoulder and go. You have five minutes to wrap this up,
24:08
Speaker 2: reinforce their sense of agency, their sense of control. They've
24:12
Speaker 2: agreed to end game time on time. And what I
24:14
Speaker 2: hear is ninety five to ninety eight percent of the
24:16
Speaker 2: time kids and they'll wrap it up, they get up
24:20
Speaker 2: and they move on when it's a healthy game. I
24:22
Speaker 2: even hear this from the kids, Oh my god, I
24:24
Speaker 2: can put this game down. They feel like they've gotten
24:28
Speaker 2: agency back, they feel like they've gotten control back. And
24:32
Speaker 2: what I hear from my friends that are family therapists,
24:35
Speaker 2: the psychologists, when they're playing the addictive games, it's a
24:37
Speaker 2: meltdown and the kid is out of control. They're just regulated.
24:42
Speaker 2: They're miserable. So it's miserable for everybody because we're giving
24:47
Speaker 2: them free games. I feel bad for parents. They think
24:51
Speaker 2: they're giving their kid a toy.
24:52
Speaker 1: We really emphasize real solutions for parents. So struggling with
24:56
Speaker 1: this and what you've just stepped us through. There is
24:58
Speaker 1: so valuable. The challenge that I know parents are going
25:03
Speaker 1: to face as they listen to that is but what
25:06
Speaker 1: about the five percent who don't respond? What about the
25:09
Speaker 1: five percent who when the lights start flashing, say no
25:13
Speaker 1: and they start the meltdown already, or they say I
25:15
Speaker 1: need fifteen more minutes, I'm not ready yet. What kind
25:19
Speaker 1: of response do you have for that?
25:21
Speaker 2: Okay, so let me expand that. A lot of y'all
25:25
Speaker 2: have very smart kids, and so they will try to negotiate, well,
25:30
Speaker 2: let me just finish this match, and then they'll jump
25:32
Speaker 2: into a match mode that never ends. Right. There'll be
25:35
Speaker 2: all sorts of games are going to play, and part
25:38
Speaker 2: of that is welcome to be an adult and a
25:40
Speaker 2: parent and work with them. I am a fan of
25:46
Speaker 2: getting off games the kids themselves lose the ability to
25:52
Speaker 2: self terminate if the player cannot voluntarily end the game.
25:56
Speaker 2: Because that's really what the difference is, right is, most
26:00
Speaker 2: of the friction with my kids was built around me
26:04
Speaker 2: forcing an end condition on them while they were in
26:06
Speaker 2: the middle of something at grossing, and that could be
26:09
Speaker 2: pretty disturbing. What we're talking about now is a difference
26:12
Speaker 2: between that condition and I'm hooked, and I am not
26:17
Speaker 2: a fan of hooked games. I'm like, get off of them,
26:20
Speaker 2: get away from them. There's better things to be doing
26:23
Speaker 2: with your time. There's no good outcome from being in
26:26
Speaker 2: this hooked environment. And we haven't even talked about how
26:29
Speaker 2: can none of these companies do age verification? There was
26:33
Speaker 2: a a I think it was Ubs Wahlberg, and there's
26:35
Speaker 2: some analysis of some of these game platforms. I have
26:37
Speaker 2: bad news for you. Guess what the number one platform
26:42
Speaker 2: for pedophiles is now games? Young kids play free games? Yeah,
26:46
Speaker 2: Red Books, Yes, one hundred percent. And you have the
26:50
Speaker 2: most valuable company on the planet, or one of them,
26:53
Speaker 2: Meta that somehow can't manage to do age verification. We
26:58
Speaker 2: do an age verification all the time the real world.
27:00
Speaker 2: Why can't we do it online? We don't want to.
27:03
Speaker 2: They don't want to change their model, so it doesn't
27:06
Speaker 2: help parents like I think kids. I think parents and
27:09
Speaker 2: kids deserved as the same protections online that they get
27:11
Speaker 2: in the real world. But your question was what do
27:14
Speaker 2: I do about the five percent? Well, I would start
27:17
Speaker 2: with one. If you're seeing that behavior, go through the
27:20
Speaker 2: question process, can you play that game offline? Well, why
27:23
Speaker 2: don't we try to move into a game we can
27:24
Speaker 2: play offline. If you walk your way through buying a
27:27
Speaker 2: game that can be played offline and you're still seeing that,
27:30
Speaker 2: then I would encourage you to see professional help because
27:32
Speaker 2: your child is likely going to be suffering from compulsive
27:36
Speaker 2: gamer syndrome. I think they call it. But if you
27:41
Speaker 2: just start taking away, and this is the stuff we
27:42
Speaker 2: see over and over again is if you detox right,
27:46
Speaker 2: take it away, get them out, get them moving, get
27:49
Speaker 2: them out in a natural environment, get them into nature,
27:51
Speaker 2: get them to decompress. It's like taking their phones away. Man,
27:55
Speaker 2: it makes a huge difference. And that's one of probably
27:59
Speaker 2: one of the single biggest things that we see is
28:04
Speaker 2: it's how dangerous the phones are and the tablets. Is
28:07
Speaker 2: that that's where a lot of these games and shovelwear
28:09
Speaker 2: come from. You know. Some of the tips are make
28:13
Speaker 2: sure your phone has a bedtime, no screens in the
28:16
Speaker 2: bedroom at night. Lots of parents think, oh, my kid
28:19
Speaker 2: is oh they turned the screens off, Like no, they
28:21
Speaker 2: don't think wit to U fall sit and they get
28:22
Speaker 2: up and go play again. And teachers just ask your teachers,
28:25
Speaker 2: is my kid palling a sleeping class. That's your single
28:28
Speaker 2: biggest clue that kids are sneaking more game time. I
28:31
Speaker 2: have a friend who found their son had a burner
28:34
Speaker 2: phone so they could be online with games a burner phone,
28:39
Speaker 2: Are you kidding me? Like, the links they're going to
28:43
Speaker 2: because they're hooked are just crazy. So part of it
28:46
Speaker 2: is getting them away from that and then getting them
28:49
Speaker 2: into an environment where they're they've got control. That's the
28:54
Speaker 2: biggest thing is are these games either reinforcing their sense
28:58
Speaker 2: of agency or these games completely deleting it? And step
29:03
Speaker 2: one is get rid of the games that are deleting
29:06
Speaker 2: their sense of agency. Then walk yourself through the progression,
29:09
Speaker 2: and if you get to the end of your rope
29:11
Speaker 2: they really can't let it go, then you probably need help.
29:15
Speaker 1: If we want to have effective conversations with our children
29:19
Speaker 1: about reducing screen time and gaming time, or at least
29:24
Speaker 1: making sure that it's healthier and productive than many parents
29:28
Speaker 1: feel that it is. What do you encourage parents to do?
29:31
Speaker 1: How do you guide them so that the kids aren't
29:33
Speaker 1: running around behind their back and being deceitful, or so
29:36
Speaker 1: that World War three isn't blowing up in the living
29:38
Speaker 1: room in the middle of this game.
29:40
Speaker 2: Part of the reason I'm doing this to get out
29:41
Speaker 2: and talk is that it's tough. Like keeping phones out
29:47
Speaker 2: of the hands of kids is extremely difficult. And the
29:51
Speaker 2: world probably you and I grew up in, which is hey,
29:53
Speaker 2: go out and play with your friends. You send kids outside.
29:56
Speaker 2: Today there's nobody out there.
29:57
Speaker 1: I say to my kids all the time, I wish
29:59
Speaker 1: you could have the childhood that I had that was
30:02
Speaker 1: so it was so active, it was so social, it
30:04
Speaker 1: was so so engaged in the world around us, instead
30:08
Speaker 1: of sitting on the carpet in the living room and
30:11
Speaker 1: staring at a screen and being with your friends there.
30:14
Speaker 1: It's just I feel like we lived in such a
30:17
Speaker 1: rich world relative to what we have today. For the kids.
30:21
Speaker 2: Look, let's you know, let's be honest. Like my wife
30:24
Speaker 2: and I as parents struggle with how much we're on
30:26
Speaker 2: our phones. We struggle. My son was the one that
30:29
Speaker 2: came in because by the time they're in their twenties now,
30:31
Speaker 2: they are wanting to spend more time with us. He
30:35
Speaker 2: had the phone stack. We went to dinner and he goes, okay, everybody,
30:38
Speaker 2: stack your phone's up. Whoever pulls our phone first is
30:41
Speaker 2: paying for dinner, you know. And it was like, I
30:44
Speaker 2: love he came up with that. I loved that one.
30:46
Speaker 2: That was great. But at the end of the day,
30:50
Speaker 2: it's do they need a smartphone or do they need
30:53
Speaker 2: a phone? And when I talked to educators are like,
30:56
Speaker 2: we don't want your kids on their phone in school.
30:59
Speaker 2: So there's a bit movement right now in the US.
31:01
Speaker 2: I think they just passed it in New York to
31:03
Speaker 2: have phone free schools, and I'm all for that. So
31:06
Speaker 2: some of this is we need some legislation, we need
31:09
Speaker 2: to set some ground rules. These are our communities, our economies,
31:13
Speaker 2: and I think parents need to be aware of what's
31:16
Speaker 2: happening and we need to demand protections for our kids.
31:19
Speaker 2: Until that happens. I'm currently researching what are some of
31:23
Speaker 2: the best most effective software solutions, But what we keep
31:27
Speaker 2: hearing is whatever you install some IP blocker on the phone,
31:31
Speaker 2: or you get a rout or whatever, the kids just
31:33
Speaker 2: go to a website at school, to go to a
31:35
Speaker 2: friend's house to look up how to get around it,
31:37
Speaker 2: and I get around it. And what we never had
31:41
Speaker 2: to do I don't do in my house. But what
31:43
Speaker 2: I've heard people have success with is specifically the devices,
31:47
Speaker 2: is lock them up, like physically make sure you have
31:51
Speaker 2: that device in your hands at night at bedtime, and
31:55
Speaker 2: it gets locked and only the parents have access to it,
31:58
Speaker 2: and that activity makes a big difference. What I've seen
32:05
Speaker 2: now that is a new thing is schools, well meaning
32:08
Speaker 2: schools are giving kids chromebooks and the kids are getting
32:13
Speaker 2: the free games through the chromebooks. And I've been like,
32:17
Speaker 2: go get a console. They're not that expensive compared to
32:21
Speaker 2: the misery you're suffering. And when the kid has redirected
32:26
Speaker 2: to a safer form of play, like they just I
32:29
Speaker 2: just hear they're like, oh my god, we can end
32:31
Speaker 2: game time without a fight. Even our son is happier
32:34
Speaker 2: and they're having healthier conversations. So Arthur Brooks talked about
32:39
Speaker 2: it is sometimes you can't eliminate something, but you can
32:42
Speaker 2: replace it. And so that's one of the key is
32:45
Speaker 2: that can you replace it with something healthier? And I'm
32:49
Speaker 2: not an expert in social media, I know girls are suffering.
32:52
Speaker 2: And what's happened is this attention stealing economy hurts boys
32:57
Speaker 2: by giving them fake agency. They're not really doing anything,
33:01
Speaker 2: but the game makes them feel like they are, so
33:04
Speaker 2: they're are pretending to do risky things and pretending to
33:07
Speaker 2: develop skills and they're not really. And girls are seeking
33:10
Speaker 2: community and they're going out and they're pretending to see community,
33:13
Speaker 2: but they're not really the biggest thing we need and
33:16
Speaker 2: this is that huge opportunity for NGOs, faith organizations and
33:20
Speaker 2: even schools. But kids really need is they need to
33:24
Speaker 2: get out in environments where they're face to face doing
33:28
Speaker 2: something at the same time and high commitment, hard to join,
33:31
Speaker 2: hard to leave, so they have a reason to stick
33:34
Speaker 2: together and work out all the bumbling social awkwardness that
33:39
Speaker 2: is part of growing up and learning to be human.
33:41
Speaker 1: Scott, we need to start to move towards conclusion. For
33:45
Speaker 1: a lightning round. Yes, no questions, short answers.
33:48
Speaker 2: I'll do my best.
33:49
Speaker 1: I know that whenever I do one of these, I'm like, oh,
33:52
Speaker 1: but this is so much more. I want to say,
33:53
Speaker 1: let's see how we go. If you do need to expand,
33:56
Speaker 1: let's keep it really taught. Question number one, and these
33:58
Speaker 1: are intentionally meant to be provocative. Number one. Are parents
34:02
Speaker 1: who allow high levels of, if not unlimited, gaming access
34:06
Speaker 1: failing their children?
34:08
Speaker 2: No, I cannot say that definitively.
34:10
Speaker 1: Did your Disney background make you more lenient about screen time?
34:15
Speaker 1: Than other parents that you've seen.
34:18
Speaker 2: No, I was already in the video game industry before
34:21
Speaker 2: I joined.
34:23
Speaker 1: Disney Roadblocks yes or no. No, absolutely not Fortnite Yes
34:28
Speaker 1: or no, absolutely not Minecraft.
34:31
Speaker 2: Yes.
34:32
Speaker 1: We talked about this before, but I'd like to get
34:34
Speaker 1: some clarity on it. Is the gaming industry deliberately designing
34:38
Speaker 1: addictive mechanics that target children.
34:42
Speaker 2: There are studios and companies that are doing what you're describing.
34:48
Speaker 2: There are many companies that are not. It is a
34:51
Speaker 2: diverse industry, and there are some great companies out there
34:54
Speaker 2: producing great, engaging entertainment. And that's part of the reason
34:57
Speaker 2: I'm doing what I'm doing. I'm angry at the industry
35:00
Speaker 2: I love that can create fun, compelling, great entertainment is
35:05
Speaker 2: being co opted by thieves. It's not right, Scott.
35:10
Speaker 1: Do you believe violent games desensitized children to real world violence?
35:17
Speaker 2: Man, No, I've wrote enough studies to indicate that's likely
35:22
Speaker 2: not true.
35:24
Speaker 1: Is the rise of gaming culture creating a generation that
35:28
Speaker 1: is less equipped for physical and face to face social
35:31
Speaker 1: realities and challenges.
35:33
Speaker 2: I didn't get to talk about it, but we were
35:35
Speaker 2: seeing a rise in what they're calling synthetic or virtual autism,
35:41
Speaker 2: steering at glass is breaking the kid's connection between how
35:45
Speaker 2: their behavior affects other people. They don't recognize the cues. Well,
35:49
Speaker 2: they're becoming face blind. They're losing the ability to read
35:53
Speaker 2: other people's emotions, and we're seeing a up to four
35:56
Speaker 2: or five year degradation or slow down and social emotional intelligence. Like,
36:02
Speaker 2: there's data to indicate this is true. This is not
36:04
Speaker 2: an opinion.
36:05
Speaker 1: And the last question, do you think the metaverse will
36:07
Speaker 1: eventually replace traditional childhood experiences?
36:10
Speaker 2: Here's what we're fighting is if it's not the metaverse.
36:14
Speaker 2: This was the whole premise behind Jonathan Height's book, is
36:17
Speaker 2: that we've moved to a phone based childhood instead of
36:20
Speaker 2: a play based childhood. We need to get back to
36:22
Speaker 2: a play based childhood because you're priming. The culture our
36:27
Speaker 2: kids are absorbing is now Internet culture, not our culture,
36:32
Speaker 2: not real world culture, but an environment that prioritizes novelty
36:39
Speaker 2: over norms and normallessness is really deeply unhealthy for humans.
36:46
Speaker 2: We need a community to be a part of to
36:49
Speaker 2: experience our individuality. Individuality and isolation is not individuality, it's pain.
36:55
Speaker 2: And so yeah, I really am a firm believer now
37:00
Speaker 2: that we have to get back to a play based childhood.
37:03
Speaker 1: Scott, you're doing amazing work. The conversation that we've had
37:06
Speaker 1: today is so important for parents. His kids love to game,
37:09
Speaker 1: and you've provide us with some number one great information,
37:12
Speaker 1: but um to some really practical strategies to assist when
37:15
Speaker 1: things get tricky around kids screens, games and the conflict
37:20
Speaker 1: that can sue. As we wrap up, is there anything
37:23
Speaker 1: that you want people to know?
37:25
Speaker 2: There's one thing we didn't touch on is it's very
37:29
Speaker 2: important to me. This is something I try to catch
37:31
Speaker 2: a lot of parents on is focus on that social
37:34
Speaker 2: emotional development. Don't I don't get obsessed with absolute screen time.
37:39
Speaker 2: If my kids are in front of a console playing
37:42
Speaker 2: with their friends in person hours, let them have at it, right,
37:45
Speaker 2: it's a social engaging interaction dynamic. If they're online by
37:49
Speaker 2: themselves playing with god knows who, or they're on their
37:52
Speaker 2: phone playing with god knows who, ten or fifteen minutes
37:55
Speaker 2: might be too long, and so it's really about what
37:58
Speaker 2: is the social environment that they're learning from, and that's
38:02
Speaker 2: the piece that we want to optimize around. And I
38:05
Speaker 2: encourage parents play the games with your kids. If you
38:08
Speaker 2: can't play with them, that's another big red flag. In fact,
38:12
Speaker 2: playing badly is a gift because these kids are not
38:17
Speaker 2: seeing what it looks like to struggle. Everybody's presenting perfect
38:20
Speaker 2: appearances online in games and social media, and so they
38:24
Speaker 2: think they're the only ones struggling. Emotionally, show them what
38:27
Speaker 2: it looks like for a mature adult to struggle to
38:29
Speaker 2: learn to do something well, and normalize those behaviors with them.
38:33
Speaker 2: But I hear over again from parents is it dramatically
38:37
Speaker 2: changes the conversations they have with their kids around gaming
38:40
Speaker 2: and on how their kids are feeling.
38:42
Speaker 1: Scott's such a valuable discussion. If people want more information
38:46
Speaker 1: about you and what you do, where should they go
38:49
Speaker 1: and how can they be in touch?
38:51
Speaker 2: Scottnovis dot com is my personal website. I wish we
38:55
Speaker 2: had operations in Australia. Game truck dot com is that
38:59
Speaker 2: if you want to know more about the company I founded.
39:01
Speaker 2: But if you want to reach me, Scottnervous dot com
39:03
Speaker 2: is the best way to reach out to me, and
39:05
Speaker 2: I'm most active on LinkedIn.
39:07
Speaker 1: Willing to all of those resources. In the show notes,
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Speaker 1: Scott has been such a such a delight to have
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Speaker 1: you on and so grateful for what you've shared.
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Speaker 2: Thank you was that helpful?
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Speaker 1: So helpful. I know every parent who's listener is going
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Speaker 1: to be like, oh yeah, I'm going to do the lights.
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Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland from
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Speaker 1: Bridge Media. For more information about making your family happier,
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Speaker 1: you can visit us at happy families dot com dot
39:30
Speaker 1: you and check out some of my webinars about keeping
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Speaker 1: kids in healthy relationships with their screens happy families dot
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Speaker 1: com dot you,