Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Nancy explores the Texas church massacre & Was teen's death a 'bucket list' murder

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Nancy explores the Texas church massacre & Was teen's death a 'bucket list' murder · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel one.
0:09
Speaker 1: Thirty two residents living in this small Texas town stunt
0:13
Speaker 1: trying to make sense of what's described as a Sunday
0:15
Speaker 1: service massacre. Who was dressed in all black. The suspect
0:18
Speaker 1: cross the street to the church his vehicle and began
0:21
Speaker 1: firing at the church. It was rapid fire. Year old
0:26
Speaker 1: Devon Patrick Kelly open fire inside Sutherland Springs First Baptist Church.
0:31
Speaker 1: A local resident grabbed his riffle and engaged that suspect.
0:34
Speaker 1: He was killed after fleeing the scene. I never thought
0:37
Speaker 1: it would happen here. I mean, this is something that
0:39
Speaker 1: takes place in a big city. Doesn't make any sense.
0:42
Speaker 1: A devastating blow in this close knit community. Really, from
0:45
Speaker 1: what's being called the country's deadliest shooting inside a house
0:48
Speaker 1: of worship, all of America is praying to God to
0:51
Speaker 1: help the wounded and the families of the victims. We
0:54
Speaker 1: will never ever leave their side. Ever, how could a
1:00
Speaker 1: year old man, a young man in the prime of
1:03
Speaker 1: his life, be so evil and so twisted that he
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Speaker 1: guns down twenty six people at least including eight members
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Speaker 1: of one family. This is a former member of the U. S.
1:17
Speaker 1: Air Force, and to make matters worse, goes to a
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Speaker 1: church at worship hour on a Sunday morning to wreak
1:26
Speaker 1: havoc I Nancy Grace, this is crime stories. Thank you
1:29
Speaker 1: for being with us this morning. Why that's the big question.
1:34
Speaker 1: At least twenty six people shot dead by a gunman,
1:37
Speaker 1: at least twenty four others being treated for horrible injuries.
1:41
Speaker 1: Unmarried dad. Unmarried dad walks into the first Baptist Church
1:47
Speaker 1: of Sutherland Springs, Texas and opens fire, opens the fire,
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Speaker 1: then he flees, many people claiming he was mentally ill.
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Speaker 1: But if he was mentally ill, why did he know
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Speaker 1: to dress solid black, wearing tactical gear, carrying a military
2:07
Speaker 1: style assault rifle. How did he plan it out so
2:12
Speaker 1: cohesively if he was insane, if he knew it was wrong,
2:16
Speaker 1: why did he run? Why was he pursued and he
2:21
Speaker 1: knew to run? It's very unclear. But what we know
2:25
Speaker 1: right now is that these people, these saints, are dead.
2:31
Speaker 1: The church pastor and his beautiful adopted daughter Annabelle dead,
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Speaker 1: Brian Carla Holcome, their daughter in law, Crystal dead, a
2:42
Speaker 1: mother of four, Joey and Ward and her two daughters,
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Speaker 1: Brooks just six and Emily, just eight, dead. It goes
2:52
Speaker 1: on and on, joining me, Art Harris, investigative reporter, five
2:57
Speaker 1: time Emmy Award winner Dr Bethany Marshall, psychoanalysts, joining us
3:02
Speaker 1: from l A and Joseph Scott Morrigan, Professor of Forensics
3:06
Speaker 1: at Jacksonville State University, death investigator. Also with me. Bruce Alexander,
3:12
Speaker 1: a terror expert with over thirty years in counter terrorism.
3:15
Speaker 1: He served on the Executive Protection Details several caps for
3:19
Speaker 1: several Cabinet members and has trained many foreign presidents security details. Personally,
3:25
Speaker 1: to all of you, thank you for being with us,
3:27
Speaker 1: even under these grim conditions. Aren't here as first to you?
3:31
Speaker 1: What happened? Nancy? Authorities have identified twenty six year old
3:35
Speaker 1: Devon Patrick Kelly as the shooter in the Texas massacre
3:39
Speaker 1: who went into this church in Sutherland Springs, first Baptist
3:42
Speaker 1: church and opens fire with an A R fifteen style
3:45
Speaker 1: weapon and kills twenty six people, wounding scores of others
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Speaker 1: before he runs. Well, how did it happen? I mean,
3:53
Speaker 1: were they in the middle of the church service? What
3:56
Speaker 1: time was that? I mean? Were they all standing up?
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Speaker 1: Uh singing? A hymn, So nobody's so him come in?
4:01
Speaker 1: Did he come in? While there? I remember the last
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Speaker 1: church shooter. I believe it was in Charleston. He actually
4:07
Speaker 1: waited till everybody had their eyes closed and we're praying
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Speaker 1: to our Holy Father in heaven and and started shooting.
4:15
Speaker 1: Do we know how it went down? Exactly Art Nancy.
4:18
Speaker 1: Apparently in the middle of a church service. He begins
4:20
Speaker 1: shooting from the outside and then goes inside, and neighbors
4:25
Speaker 1: report hearing about a hundred rounds going off, and it
4:29
Speaker 1: is unclear exactly the sequence. However, he caught everybody by surprise.
4:35
Speaker 1: And but before it was over, a massacre of historic
4:39
Speaker 1: proportions in Texas. You know, Joe Scott Morgan and eight
4:44
Speaker 1: months pregnant mom and three of her children were murdered.
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Speaker 1: I'm just I'm just beside myself. How are they going
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Speaker 1: to process this scene? And Joe Scott One of the
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Speaker 1: reasons I keep pounding at, chipping away at how did
4:58
Speaker 1: it happen? Because the m O, the motors operandi, the
5:02
Speaker 1: method of operation, is going to tell me anyway whether
5:05
Speaker 1: this guy knew what he was doing, because I think
5:08
Speaker 1: he did know. I think he knew very well. I
5:11
Speaker 1: want to know why he targeted this church, why he
5:14
Speaker 1: did what he did? Uh? Specifically, was there a person
5:17
Speaker 1: he was after had was he angry at this church?
5:19
Speaker 1: Was he angry at church in general? Why? Why this church?
5:23
Speaker 1: Why at that time? I want to know his every
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Speaker 1: move because it will help me determine was he mainly
5:30
Speaker 1: ill or is he just pure evil? That's what I
5:32
Speaker 1: want to know, Joseph Scott Morgan. And how can they
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Speaker 1: figure that out from a crime scene? Yeah, sequencing is
5:38
Speaker 1: the key here, uh, Nancy, the idea of where he
5:41
Speaker 1: approached from, how he went about methodic pople And it
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Speaker 1: also gives you an indication from a crime scene perspective,
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Speaker 1: if this individual was familiar with the interior of this
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Speaker 1: church and how it kind of laid out. And also
5:53
Speaker 1: the sequencing is important here because of the timing. Who
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Speaker 1: was shot first? Was he targeting the speaker, the music, minister,
6:00
Speaker 1: the past or whomever it was, um, And that could
6:04
Speaker 1: give you an initial indication of what his purpose was there. Uh.
6:08
Speaker 1: And this this is an overwhelming crime scene, Nancy, when
6:12
Speaker 1: you have multiple dead at a scene. This is a
6:15
Speaker 1: very contained area. This is not a huge church. You've
6:18
Speaker 1: got people that are literally laying on top of one another.
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Speaker 1: You can immagine these these parents that are trying to
6:25
Speaker 1: protect their young kids, they're laying on top of them.
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Speaker 1: Potentially you've got spent casings that are all over the place.
6:31
Speaker 1: It's a hellish nightmare for crime scene investigator UH to
6:35
Speaker 1: walking and processes sing UH step by step and there
6:37
Speaker 1: will be a lot of questions as you can imagine
6:39
Speaker 1: going forward. So sequence is very very important and it's
6:42
Speaker 1: key to all of this well. As horrific details of
6:46
Speaker 1: this cowardly attack are emerging, police sources are saying there
6:50
Speaker 1: was probably quote no way for the worshippers to escape.
6:56
Speaker 1: The Wilson County Sheriff Joe D. Tech At Jr. Says
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Speaker 1: that Kelly walked down the center aisle, turned around and
7:05
Speaker 1: started shooting on his way back out. So he walks
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Speaker 1: down the aisle like you're going towards the altar, turns
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Speaker 1: around to look at the congregation and start shooting on
7:18
Speaker 1: his way back out. He could see unfold in front
7:22
Speaker 1: of him. Dr Bethany Marshall, he could see unfolding in
7:26
Speaker 1: front of him as he walked forward, children, women, men,
7:30
Speaker 1: a pregnant woman just falling and he continued to shoot.
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Speaker 1: Dr Bethany. It's so frightening and chilling mean the way
7:40
Speaker 1: you're describing it. And one of the things that comes
7:43
Speaker 1: to my mind, We've talked about this so many times before, Nancy,
7:46
Speaker 1: is that these shooters love a fish and a barrel
7:50
Speaker 1: type of quality to the crimes. They always like the
7:53
Speaker 1: Vegas massacre, you know, on the thirty second floor, Columbine
7:57
Speaker 1: walking through classrooms, the Sama Barber School massacre, um walking
8:02
Speaker 1: classroom doors and then walking into a crowded classroom. These
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Speaker 1: shooters seem to love the power differential that always strikes me.
8:12
Speaker 1: It's not like they're say, at a crowd at Disneyland,
8:16
Speaker 1: or in a big coliseum where people can run and hide,
8:19
Speaker 1: or or people have some kind of advantage. They're almost
8:22
Speaker 1: always in some kind of a closed space where people
8:25
Speaker 1: can't get away. And as a psychoanalyst, I tend to
8:29
Speaker 1: think beyond mental illness and to really the underlying, unconscious
8:34
Speaker 1: motivations behind these crimes, and it seems to me that
8:37
Speaker 1: they always go where people are enjoying themselves, where people
8:41
Speaker 1: are innocent, where there are families gathering, where their children
8:44
Speaker 1: and parents. It's as if they have some acts to
8:48
Speaker 1: grind or some basic envy towards people who are actually
8:53
Speaker 1: enjoying their lives. And we know from uh some case
8:56
Speaker 1: studies of the histories of these shooters that they disco
9:00
Speaker 1: write their own histories. Whether or not this is true,
9:02
Speaker 1: this is their own anecdotal experience. They always describe having
9:06
Speaker 1: been bullied, having been mistreated, as if society has power
9:10
Speaker 1: over them, and now they're reversing all of that and
9:12
Speaker 1: they're trying to have power over society in some kind
9:16
Speaker 1: of sick and twisted way. Dothany Marshall, what does it
9:19
Speaker 1: mean to you that he wanted to see their faces
9:22
Speaker 1: as he gunned them down glee? He was so full
9:26
Speaker 1: of glee as he was gunning them down. I mean,
9:29
Speaker 1: this is a guy who imagines in his own mind
9:32
Speaker 1: that he has been um for lack of a better word,
9:35
Speaker 1: disc by society, that there's a power differential. I mean,
9:39
Speaker 1: this is somebody who I would imagine if you were
9:41
Speaker 1: to meet him in public and had a conversation with him,
9:44
Speaker 1: or if you were to come to my consulting room,
9:47
Speaker 1: were described that people criticize him, put him down, Maybe
9:50
Speaker 1: that he's been a woman has been broken up with him.
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Speaker 1: He's been unfairly discharged from a job. The society is
9:58
Speaker 1: against him. So now he's going to re first of
10:00
Speaker 1: all of that, and he's going to be against society.
10:04
Speaker 1: You know. I want to go to Bruce Alexander, our
10:06
Speaker 1: terror expert. Bruce. I know of one link at least
10:09
Speaker 1: he has with this, the First Baptist Church. He was
10:13
Speaker 1: married to Danielle Shills. They I think they have a
10:16
Speaker 1: child together. She was previously a teacher at First Baptist Church, Bryce, Nancy.
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Speaker 1: That suggests me also that that there was a personal
10:25
Speaker 1: connection there as perhaps a possible means or motive that
10:30
Speaker 1: would precipitate the attack. But I think to your earlier
10:34
Speaker 1: point about how horrific this is, this this is a
10:38
Speaker 1: particularly insidious attack. And you started off by saying the
10:42
Speaker 1: fact that look at the venue in which this took place.
10:44
Speaker 1: It's a church venue. And that suggests to me that
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Speaker 1: this was very deliberate and very calculated from a tactical perspective.
10:51
Speaker 1: From two points. Number one, church is a welcoming place,
10:55
Speaker 1: not to the exclusion of any other toy sort of
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Speaker 1: religious institution, but it's a very welcoming place. I saw
11:01
Speaker 1: a previous video footage that showed that they frequently opened
11:05
Speaker 1: up with him, and then the past invited people to
11:07
Speaker 1: turn and greet others, perhaps someone they didn't know. Well.
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Speaker 1: What's particularly insidious about this, and suggested me that this
11:13
Speaker 1: was very deliberate, is that the shooter, of nothing else,
11:17
Speaker 1: exploited that vulnerability, knowing full well that the mindset, if
11:20
Speaker 1: you will, the welcoming nature of that church was going
11:23
Speaker 1: to be such that the defense, the likelihood of anybody
11:28
Speaker 1: having any sort of suspicion or even perhaps anybody having
11:31
Speaker 1: any degree or preparedness to counter this type of thing,
11:34
Speaker 1: wasn't gonna be there. So that suggested me he was
11:36
Speaker 1: looking for the quintessential soft target. The second thing I
11:39
Speaker 1: would say, this is a church again by itself, it's
11:42
Speaker 1: welcoming and opening nature, UH, does not build into its
11:46
Speaker 1: structures physical security or protective measures. That also suggests to
11:50
Speaker 1: me that this is somebody who could exploit that the
11:53
Speaker 1: lack of built in protective measures a hardened facility. Again,
11:57
Speaker 1: it's the quintessential soft tar. Again. And so to your
12:01
Speaker 1: earlier point that led us off to the discussion, UH,
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Speaker 1: in my mind, I certainly view it as calculated. I
12:07
Speaker 1: don't know the motive at this particular point in time
12:09
Speaker 1: still to be the determined, but certainly calculated in terms
12:12
Speaker 1: of trying to afflict the maximum potential casualties. He certainly
12:17
Speaker 1: selected the target reflective of that, and by all accounts
12:20
Speaker 1: achieved it. What do you make of it, Bruce Alexander?
12:23
Speaker 1: What Dr Bethany Marshall was analyzing about how so many
12:27
Speaker 1: of these terroristic shooters like that, as she said, fish
12:31
Speaker 1: ball fish in a barrel effect where their victims are helpless,
12:35
Speaker 1: there's nowhere to go, nowhere to run, they can't get away.
12:39
Speaker 1: She's absolutely spot on. Um, when you look at what
12:43
Speaker 1: defines these these attackers, uh, you know, the active shooter
12:46
Speaker 1: leading aside sort of the trying to analyze them, but
12:51
Speaker 1: when you look at it from a tactical perspective, their
12:53
Speaker 1: intent is to create an inflict math maximum casualties here.
12:58
Speaker 1: And it's very much similar to what we saw in
13:01
Speaker 1: Las Vegas. It's what we saw similar last week. And
13:04
Speaker 1: so the captive audience guarantees that the tactical outcome that
13:08
Speaker 1: this attacker is trying to obtain is going to happen. Um,
13:12
Speaker 1: no place to run, no place to really sort of
13:15
Speaker 1: defend yourself using the element of surprise, which you know
13:19
Speaker 1: certainly cuts down the ability to react and to defend
13:22
Speaker 1: from these kinds of things. They typically seek out that
13:26
Speaker 1: again soft target where they can maximize the tactical advantage
13:31
Speaker 1: to them and quite frankly, um minimize the likelihood of
13:35
Speaker 1: them being killed in the commission of that particular mass
13:39
Speaker 1: casualty events. So that analysis is spot on. And again
13:46
Speaker 1: a church certainly lends itself to that when you have
13:48
Speaker 1: a group of congregants without any means defenseless. Uh, it's
13:53
Speaker 1: certainly UH supports that. Uh, that notion and that confined
13:59
Speaker 1: space is where the is a is a desired target.
14:01
Speaker 1: You know, aren't Harris investigative reporter. You know where I'm
14:04
Speaker 1: coming from because you know me so well. But when
14:07
Speaker 1: I think about the Sunday school teacher I grew up
14:10
Speaker 1: having actually art, I think you know this the same
14:15
Speaker 1: uh first grade, second grade, and third grade teacher as
14:18
Speaker 1: my sister, brother and mother, And they all sat behind
14:22
Speaker 1: me on We would sit on the third row on
14:25
Speaker 1: the right, and they would sit on the fourth row
14:27
Speaker 1: on the right, right behind me. There's no way I
14:29
Speaker 1: can misbehave because that was when they would still hit
14:31
Speaker 1: you if you miss behaved because totally getting beat at
14:35
Speaker 1: school if we did anything wrong. But um, I'm thinking
14:39
Speaker 1: back about also sitting there would be our Sunday School
14:43
Speaker 1: teachers and do you know aren't Harris to this day? Um,
14:48
Speaker 1: I remember miss Esther ms Julia Mispaced. In fact, I
14:53
Speaker 1: love miss Esther's class so much, miss Esther Puckett, that
14:56
Speaker 1: I think I was three that they let me just
14:59
Speaker 1: stay in there every Sunday for I forgot how many years,
15:03
Speaker 1: because I didn't want to leave miss Esther. I didn't
15:05
Speaker 1: want to graduate. I didn't want to graduate to the
15:07
Speaker 1: next class. And apparently I threw such a fit that
15:10
Speaker 1: it was just easier to lead me in there with
15:11
Speaker 1: her than to try to make me advance with you know,
15:14
Speaker 1: everybody my age. And because I loved her so much,
15:18
Speaker 1: and I'm just you know, when I take the twins
15:21
Speaker 1: to church on Sunday morning, the first stop is getting
15:24
Speaker 1: the children into Sunday School high drama, and um, they
15:27
Speaker 1: love it. As a matter of fact, aren't this past weekend?
15:31
Speaker 1: You know it's the twins turned ten? Can you believe it?
15:34
Speaker 1: I just, you know, I'm so blessed they gave little
15:37
Speaker 1: posters for their birthday. The teachers had made and had
15:40
Speaker 1: them already and decorated the room for them. And I
15:44
Speaker 1: just who's better than a Sunday school teacher. I mean,
15:47
Speaker 1: you hear about preachers having this scandal and that scandal.
15:50
Speaker 1: The Sunday school teachers are the volunteers that are showing
15:53
Speaker 1: up ahead of time to be with children and do
15:56
Speaker 1: a good thing and and teach them about love. And
15:59
Speaker 1: that's what of the victims. I'm so upset. I can
16:01
Speaker 1: hardly stand at art Nancy. Ironically, the shooter had also
16:05
Speaker 1: taught some Sunday school according to an account, but he
16:07
Speaker 1: was a Sunday school teacher with a past few people knew,
16:11
Speaker 1: perhaps when he walked in that church. If they didn't
16:13
Speaker 1: know him, his mother in law, by by chance, lived
16:16
Speaker 1: in that town and may have gone to the church.
16:19
Speaker 1: Not confirmed yet, but he had received a bad conduct
16:23
Speaker 1: discharge for assaulting his wife and their child while in
16:27
Speaker 1: the airport. He got a one year confinement. He was
16:29
Speaker 1: busted to lowest grade UH rank in the Air Force
16:33
Speaker 1: and was kicked out in two thousand fourteen. So this
16:37
Speaker 1: is someone with a chip in his shoulder. In fact,
16:39
Speaker 1: a week before the assault. Nancy reports that his Facebook
16:43
Speaker 1: page featured this a R fifteen gun as his lead photo,
16:48
Speaker 1: almost like a pin up, and the comment he had
16:50
Speaker 1: underneath the photo was she is a quote bad bitch.
16:54
Speaker 1: Now that is someone who idolized guns and had a
16:57
Speaker 1: chip on his shoulder that no one could fathom would
17:00
Speaker 1: turn into something like this if that is linked. Guys,
17:04
Speaker 1: I want to pause just for one moment because our
17:08
Speaker 1: investigation into the church shooting in Texas it's possible because
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18:50
Speaker 1: I want to go back to the Texas shooting. We're
18:53
Speaker 1: talking about the Purp. We know he's the Purp. There's
18:56
Speaker 1: no doubt he's the Purp. What I want to talk
18:58
Speaker 1: about is whether he was mentally ill, because that's what's
19:01
Speaker 1: being floated right now. Now. Are you're telling me something
19:03
Speaker 1: I didn't know? Are you telling me that this guy
19:08
Speaker 1: was a Sunday school teacher before he was a mass killer.
19:12
Speaker 1: There are some reports that he taught a Bible study
19:15
Speaker 1: in a church in Texas at one point, and that
19:20
Speaker 1: before that, though Nancy, he was discharged from the airport
19:23
Speaker 1: the air Force for beating his wife and child, and
19:27
Speaker 1: in two thousand fourteen got his bad conduct discharge dishonorable discharge.
19:31
Speaker 1: People are not allowed to buy weapons like this, and
19:35
Speaker 1: you also are banned if you have been convicted of
19:37
Speaker 1: domestic abuse. So he was a two time violator of
19:43
Speaker 1: of the federal laws that would allow someone to buy
19:46
Speaker 1: a gun. The question is did he get this gun
19:49
Speaker 1: before he was discharged and got uh, you know, got
19:54
Speaker 1: banned or we don't know if he was turned down,
19:56
Speaker 1: if he applied for a gun after and got, or
20:00
Speaker 1: if bought this before. One thing we're learning as this
20:03
Speaker 1: guy was called a creepy outcast who quote preached his
20:06
Speaker 1: atheism online before killing twenty six people. Now, one guy,
20:14
Speaker 1: Patrick Boyce, who attended high school with the killer, says
20:17
Speaker 1: that he had a kid fairly normal but quiet and
20:21
Speaker 1: lately seemed depressed. He was the first atheist I met.
20:25
Speaker 1: I was shocked to hear the news. Now I'm trying
20:29
Speaker 1: to factor in who, what, what all this means? If anything,
20:33
Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out how you go from being
20:36
Speaker 1: a Sunday school teacher to becoming an atheist. He quote
20:40
Speaker 1: he was always talking about how people who believe in
20:43
Speaker 1: God are stupid and trying to preach his atheism. Well,
20:48
Speaker 1: you know, Dr Bethany, a lot of Christians are used
20:51
Speaker 1: to that, being told they're stupid for believing in in
20:55
Speaker 1: God or Christ or any higher higher power. And it's
20:59
Speaker 1: not just Christians. I mean, Art, you're a devout Jew.
21:03
Speaker 1: I mean, Jews have been persecuted since you know, from
21:07
Speaker 1: the very beginning. They're being persecuted way back in the
21:10
Speaker 1: Old Testament. For Pete's sake. People have always claimed that
21:14
Speaker 1: people of faith are stupid, all right, So I'm starting
21:18
Speaker 1: to get an idea here, Art Hairs, do you know
21:20
Speaker 1: any facts before I go to Bethany on this that
21:23
Speaker 1: he called people that believed in a higher power, whether
21:28
Speaker 1: you're a Jew or a Christian, Muslim, whatever, you are,
21:31
Speaker 1: are all stupid. Other than his friends who was quoted
21:34
Speaker 1: Nancy Uh, It's unclear, however, this is someone who obviously
21:38
Speaker 1: had no reverence for life or had no faith uh
21:42
Speaker 1: in in life or a higher power to do something
21:45
Speaker 1: like this. So it's by his very actions he speaks
21:51
Speaker 1: about a belief or disbelief in uh, a higher power.
21:56
Speaker 1: You know, Bruce Alexander are terror expert joining us today. Bruce,
22:00
Speaker 1: how long would it have taken to plan this thing out?
22:03
Speaker 1: Because he was spotted at a gas station just before
22:05
Speaker 1: the shooting in full tactical gear, getting enough gas to
22:08
Speaker 1: try to make a getaway, brace, Nancy, the planning cycle
22:12
Speaker 1: in this particular case, given the target would have been
22:16
Speaker 1: relatively short. Uh. Let me contrast that to answer your
22:20
Speaker 1: question by perhaps let's let's look at last week with
22:23
Speaker 1: the terrorist attack in New York. We do know that,
22:25
Speaker 1: based on reports, was that there was some element of
22:28
Speaker 1: pre operational surveillance, which is a typical hallmark in terrorist attacks.
22:34
Speaker 1: And so because of the nature of the type of
22:36
Speaker 1: attacks that they did, my senses and this one was
22:39
Speaker 1: that he had some sort of pre operational surveillance. But
22:42
Speaker 1: in this case, that pre operational surveillance could have been
22:45
Speaker 1: nothing more than what he did at that gas station
22:47
Speaker 1: ahead of time. Would have consisted of looking down the
22:50
Speaker 1: streets and sure there's no local law enforcement there, ensuring
22:52
Speaker 1: that he had immediate access of quick access right to
22:55
Speaker 1: the front. His objective was to create maximum amount of
22:59
Speaker 1: casualties and a minimum amount of time. So he could
23:02
Speaker 1: have planned that, um almost nearly spontaneously. But I go
23:08
Speaker 1: back to the fact that spontaneously if you had to
23:12
Speaker 1: get dressed up in that get up like a little
23:15
Speaker 1: kids dressing up for Halloween and then got to get
23:17
Speaker 1: gassed to fill up his tank for the getaway, You're
23:21
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right he could have as I was leading
23:24
Speaker 1: to my senses, is no, it was. It was far
23:27
Speaker 1: more premeditated and deliberate. Part of the reasons why are
23:31
Speaker 1: the ones that that you just suggested. The other thing
23:34
Speaker 1: that tells me is this the guy came in with
23:37
Speaker 1: with there over a hundred rounds fire that a r
23:40
Speaker 1: that ruger a are typically uh, you know Max's capacity
23:43
Speaker 1: has a magazine of thirty rounds. That suggests to me
23:46
Speaker 1: that he changed magazines at least three, probably closer to
23:51
Speaker 1: four times. He was prepared for that. The other thing
23:54
Speaker 1: that tells me that there was some element of planning
23:57
Speaker 1: that went into this ahead of time was how did
23:59
Speaker 1: he know the extent of the magazines, the number of
24:01
Speaker 1: magazines that he had there. Those are the kinds of
24:04
Speaker 1: things that the law enforcement will be looking at, but
24:07
Speaker 1: in this particular case, it suggests to me that you know,
24:10
Speaker 1: there was a planning cycle that that that took place
24:12
Speaker 1: there and to the earlier point, knowing he was going
24:15
Speaker 1: to be able to inflict that many casualties in a
24:17
Speaker 1: confined area there. That also suggests to me that there
24:21
Speaker 1: was some thought given to this crazy maybe crazy like
24:25
Speaker 1: a fox. I would say, you know, one little girl shot,
24:29
Speaker 1: one child shot multiple times, Another little girl, Dr Bethany
24:33
Speaker 1: had her glasses shot off her face and she jumped
24:36
Speaker 1: below a pew and hid Nancy. It's hard for me
24:40
Speaker 1: to even absorb these details. It's so as I said earlier, chilling,
24:45
Speaker 1: it's so tragic. I think. You know, my dad's a minister,
24:48
Speaker 1: so I grew up in the church and one of
24:51
Speaker 1: the things I observed growing up and and I've really
24:54
Speaker 1: my belief in this has been solidified throughout my training
24:57
Speaker 1: to be a psychoanalyst, as that sure, religious organizations are
25:01
Speaker 1: where happy people gather. People are enjoying each other there
25:05
Speaker 1: with their families. You know, children are going to Sunday
25:08
Speaker 1: school as you described. And I think that shooters target
25:12
Speaker 1: people who are happy. I mean basically, they go where
25:18
Speaker 1: people are enjoying each other and they wreak havoc and
25:22
Speaker 1: the fact that this guy was preaching atheism online, to me,
25:26
Speaker 1: that speaks to his grandiose grandiosity and maybe even being
25:30
Speaker 1: a sociopath, because these sociopaths act like everybody's stupid with them. Well,
25:36
Speaker 1: how how did I true, Nancy? I mean, this guy
25:42
Speaker 1: had a message. Wait a minute, what is it? Why
25:46
Speaker 1: our atheists always trying to convert everybody to atheism? Why
25:52
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to think about that. They actually it's
25:55
Speaker 1: so as if they have intellectual superiority as a people
25:59
Speaker 1: who BELI okay, so let's think about Sandy hook. So
26:11
Speaker 1: as I remember that that mass shooting, the shooter's mother
26:15
Speaker 1: was a teacher at the school. Remember that, And in
26:18
Speaker 1: this case, are you saying his mother in law or
26:21
Speaker 1: his life teacher? His wife had been a teacher at
26:26
Speaker 1: the church's that's the only report I have, So he
26:28
Speaker 1: had that connection before. I forget this thought. It seems
26:32
Speaker 1: like a total disregard for life. And it's just actually
26:35
Speaker 1: Jackie's thought here in the studio with me, by killing children,
26:38
Speaker 1: children he didn't even know to gun down children? Well
26:41
Speaker 1: what is that, Beth? And he helped me out. I'm
26:42
Speaker 1: just a trial lawyer. Okay. So I always think about
26:45
Speaker 1: the role of envy in these crimes, and one of
26:48
Speaker 1: the things I was taught during my training is that
26:51
Speaker 1: envy and jealousy are a motivator for almost every single crime.
26:55
Speaker 1: You can't be happy because I can't stand it. You
26:58
Speaker 1: can't enjoy your family, you can't go to church, you
27:00
Speaker 1: can't worship in peace because I cannot tolerate that you
27:04
Speaker 1: are happy because I am so miserable. Basic envy is
27:08
Speaker 1: that I can't take it if you have something good,
27:10
Speaker 1: because it makes me feel bad. And so that's why
27:13
Speaker 1: I think with these mass shootings, they always go where
27:16
Speaker 1: people are happy. And I do know from being a
27:18
Speaker 1: pastor's daughter that it seems that often miserable people would
27:22
Speaker 1: sometimes gravitate towards the church to stir up trouble because
27:26
Speaker 1: they couldn't take the fact that it was a peaceable organization.
27:29
Speaker 1: And obviously this is envy on steroids. I mean, you know,
27:33
Speaker 1: if if everybody was envious too, you know, had a gun,
27:36
Speaker 1: I can't can't even imagine. But I think it's just
27:38
Speaker 1: the basic happiness, Nancy. I think it's that simple. But
27:42
Speaker 1: I think because that is one line of psycho analysis
27:48
Speaker 1: I haven't ever heard explored that you punish other people
27:53
Speaker 1: because they're happy, and so you have to reach vengeance
27:57
Speaker 1: on them. So in the end, art this guy, what
28:01
Speaker 1: happened as he's unloading his weapon. Apparently a neighbor sees
28:06
Speaker 1: this and approaches him with his own gun. Apparently a
28:10
Speaker 1: here local hero who saved the day and may have
28:13
Speaker 1: fired at him, We're not sure, but he chased him
28:15
Speaker 1: in his truck in the church or outside the church.
28:19
Speaker 1: Outside the church, he confronts him, has a weapon and disarms,
28:24
Speaker 1: or the guy drops his gun and he climbs in
28:27
Speaker 1: his truck and runs. And this guy gets into his
28:29
Speaker 1: truck and follows him, and the shooter crashes into a
28:32
Speaker 1: tree and they find him dead of a gunshot wound.
28:35
Speaker 1: It's unclear if it was from the hero local hero,
28:39
Speaker 1: or if he took his own life, but it came
28:41
Speaker 1: to an end because of a local hero who otherwise
28:46
Speaker 1: this would have been even more horrific. Nancy, you know,
28:50
Speaker 1: thank God for the hero, and I'm glad it's over
28:55
Speaker 1: that he didn't drive on in his getaway car to
28:59
Speaker 1: kill more people. But it I'm just trying to absorb
29:03
Speaker 1: now what those families are going through, you know, and
29:09
Speaker 1: the days and weeks that follow this horrible, horrible thing.
29:15
Speaker 1: All we can do is try to find the truth,
29:19
Speaker 1: try to make it never happen again, and pray for
29:22
Speaker 1: the victims and their families. That's when I learned, And
29:26
Speaker 1: all those years of prosecuting, I put one bad guy
29:29
Speaker 1: in jail after the next, after the next, after the next,
29:31
Speaker 1: after the next. I mean I can't even say next
29:33
Speaker 1: enough times. Thousands of people aren't you were there with me,
29:38
Speaker 1: and I learned. All you can do is try to
29:42
Speaker 1: find the truth, try to make sure it doesn't happen again,
29:46
Speaker 1: and pray for the victims and their families. And I
29:49
Speaker 1: hope you all join me in that pursuit. I want
29:54
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32:12
Speaker 1: Teen Boy is dead and now we are learning of
32:16
Speaker 1: allegations that his killer was a woman, a woman who
32:21
Speaker 1: was quote euphoric because she could now take an item
32:26
Speaker 1: off her quote bucket list. That item murder straight out
32:32
Speaker 1: to death. Investigator Joseph Scott, Morgan Joe Scott what happened
32:37
Speaker 1: this set of circumstances is absolutely positively horrific. You've got
32:40
Speaker 1: a young man named Aaron who is suffering. They characterized
32:45
Speaker 1: it as autism, but on the scale of autism. He
32:48
Speaker 1: actually had been diagnosed with Asperger syndrome. A sweet young man,
32:51
Speaker 1: he's described by his family this way. He was invited
32:55
Speaker 1: over to the home of the lady in question and
32:58
Speaker 1: told promised that he could come over and download some
33:02
Speaker 1: computer games. And when he got there, he walked into
33:06
Speaker 1: just absolute pure hell. Uh these uh. This woman literally
33:12
Speaker 1: in the basement of her house had a dungeon set
33:14
Speaker 1: up Nancy where she took him into the dungeon because
33:18
Speaker 1: she had a desire, a blood lust, if you will.
33:20
Speaker 1: She wanted to kill somebody, as you mentioned, check it
33:23
Speaker 1: off of her bucket list by the time she was
33:25
Speaker 1: twenty five years old. Took him in there, restrained him,
33:29
Speaker 1: and then took a wire garrotte and tied it around
33:33
Speaker 1: his neck in order to choke him out. It didn't work.
33:38
Speaker 1: The wire garrotte broke, Nancy broke, and this poor child,
33:41
Speaker 1: this poor disabled child, is there in horror. Then she
33:45
Speaker 1: pulls out the knives and she stabs him multiple multiple times,
33:50
Speaker 1: finally stabbing him in the neck and killing him right
33:54
Speaker 1: there in her basement. She then allegedly takes him and
33:57
Speaker 1: buries him in a shallow grave covered with cement and tiles. Now,
34:02
Speaker 1: from what we are told by one of her girlfriends,
34:06
Speaker 1: a platonic girlfriend, that she was quote Lily. This woman,
34:10
Speaker 1: Jemma Lily, was so quote full of herself and euphoric. Afterwards,
34:15
Speaker 1: she bragged to a coworker about the killing and say,
34:19
Speaker 1: that's the problem right there. That's why I always say,
34:23
Speaker 1: Karen start psychologists joining us from Manhattan, that it's very
34:27
Speaker 1: difficult for me to ever believe a conspiracy is real. Uh.
34:31
Speaker 1: For instance, in the O. J. Simpson case, so many
34:34
Speaker 1: people believe the police had a conspiracy to get Simpson bs.
34:38
Speaker 1: Not all those people cannot keep their trap shut this
34:41
Speaker 1: long about a conspiracy that pen five million dollar book
34:46
Speaker 1: and make a whole lot of money, do the talk
34:49
Speaker 1: show rounds, and then go go live in secret. That's
34:51
Speaker 1: what would happen. So I find it very difficult to
34:54
Speaker 1: believe conspiracies. She's the perfect example. She couldn't wait to
35:00
Speaker 1: get back to work and over the water cooler talk
35:03
Speaker 1: about murdering somebody. Karen, what what is that problem? Because
35:08
Speaker 1: she felt so euphoric. Nancy, here's somebody who, from the
35:11
Speaker 1: time she was a teenager was obsessed with the idea
35:15
Speaker 1: of killing and was driven. She really she wrote a
35:19
Speaker 1: book to release those instincts and way, way, way, okay,
35:24
Speaker 1: book a book? Tell me about she wrote a book
35:27
Speaker 1: about what about a serial killer? Well, Joe Scott Morgan,
35:32
Speaker 1: hold on here and start hold that thought, Joe Scott,
35:35
Speaker 1: that's gonna be States number one exhibit. Let's just start
35:37
Speaker 1: with the books she wrote, because I guarantee you there
35:40
Speaker 1: are passages in the book that directly mirror what she
35:44
Speaker 1: did to this teen autistic boy. I guarantee yeah, I
35:48
Speaker 1: can guarantee you it's gonna paint a deadly narrative moving forward, Nancy.
35:52
Speaker 1: And this is another interesting thing. She's fascinated with the
35:55
Speaker 1: hard genre, and she's fascinated so much, Nancy, that she's
35:59
Speaker 1: actually got a Freddy Krueger tattoo of a signature by
36:03
Speaker 1: Freddy Krueger on her body. That's how much she loved
36:06
Speaker 1: horror fantasy. And wait, Alan, Alan, she has he she
36:14
Speaker 1: has a Freddy Krueger tattoo. Yes, and she's also got
36:18
Speaker 1: a David Berkowitz, son of Sam tattooed the letters S
36:20
Speaker 1: O S tattooed on her. Her nickname for her husband,
36:24
Speaker 1: who who left this world in was Gaycey named after
36:28
Speaker 1: John Wayne Gacey. She can I just gask out of
36:31
Speaker 1: curiosity how he died. I don't think there's any suspicion there.
36:35
Speaker 1: But she was fascinated with that. And and and in
36:38
Speaker 1: the book, this is the other thing. Her stepmother says that, well,
36:42
Speaker 1: she had a troubled childhood. Listen to what her dad
36:44
Speaker 1: did after she wrote this book about son of this
36:47
Speaker 1: s O S book about the serial killer. Her dad
36:49
Speaker 1: actually made her a mask that resembled the serial killer.
36:53
Speaker 1: She apparently really identified with the main character. And who
36:57
Speaker 1: was no Haley Dean. Thank god he's here in story.
37:00
Speaker 1: We got I got us off track. I went down
37:02
Speaker 1: the garden path. But my question was, she's talking about
37:05
Speaker 1: the murder over the water cooler at work. What what
37:09
Speaker 1: is that, you know, compulsion to brag about your crime. Well,
37:15
Speaker 1: because that's part of the continued excitement. It's it's the
37:19
Speaker 1: same as if she had, you know, taken pieces of him,
37:23
Speaker 1: of things that belonged to him, and could keep looking
37:26
Speaker 1: at them. She's she's obsessed with what happened because it
37:30
Speaker 1: gave her this euphoric feeling, and she just had a
37:34
Speaker 1: blurt it out because she was she was filled with
37:37
Speaker 1: it Nancy. It was a part of who she was.
37:39
Speaker 1: It was so exciting. She'd been waiting for this her
37:42
Speaker 1: whole life. She thanked her accomplice and she signed it
37:46
Speaker 1: s os Son of sand the accomplice being another woman
37:50
Speaker 1: that apparently helped lure the teen boy who has Asperger's
37:55
Speaker 1: into the home. Quote. I can't rest until a fresh,
37:58
Speaker 1: screaming victim is gushing on the floor. What about a
38:02
Speaker 1: text message? Aland what do you know? She sent a
38:05
Speaker 1: text message to her code defendant just hours after the murder,
38:08
Speaker 1: saying quote, I am seeing things I've never seen before
38:12
Speaker 1: and feeling things I've never felt before. It's incredibly empowering
38:15
Speaker 1: these images. Thank you. Well, I've gotten used for her.
38:18
Speaker 1: She's going to feel something else she's never felt before.
38:21
Speaker 1: Behind bars, they so called bucket list killer rites in
38:25
Speaker 1: her sick horror novel, and she had a so called
38:29
Speaker 1: kill kit. What was that Alan? Her kill kit? Well,
38:34
Speaker 1: I know one of the things they did. They went
38:35
Speaker 1: to numerous trips are a hardware store, and they collected
38:38
Speaker 1: one liters of hydrochloric acid they planned to use to
38:42
Speaker 1: dispose of the victim's body. I guess Joseph Scott Morgan
38:46
Speaker 1: can tell you what hydrochloric acid does to a human
38:48
Speaker 1: human body, But they didn't use it in the end. Instead,
38:52
Speaker 1: they just did it the old fashioned way. They dug
38:53
Speaker 1: a hole, buried him, put concrete, and then tiled over it.
38:58
Speaker 1: So they went old school, all right, Juscott, what's with
39:00
Speaker 1: the hydrochloric acid. Well, they're going to attempt to dissolve
39:04
Speaker 1: the body. And when you apply hydrochloric acid uh to
39:08
Speaker 1: human remains, it begins to break the body down to
39:12
Speaker 1: the point where a lot of people think that it's
39:14
Speaker 1: going to be uh impossible to get the body identified.
39:18
Speaker 1: The problem is is that most people that begin to
39:20
Speaker 1: do sort of thing have no practice at it, so
39:22
Speaker 1: they're not very good at and which you know, makes
39:24
Speaker 1: a question why did they buy it in the first place, Because,
39:27
Speaker 1: as you stated, they dug a hole in the backyard
39:30
Speaker 1: of the home and then poured concrete over the top
39:32
Speaker 1: of him and then sealed it off with tiles. And
39:36
Speaker 1: just so that we remember, this young man's name was Aeron,
39:39
Speaker 1: his name was Aaron, and he had Asperger's and they
39:42
Speaker 1: just they suffered this poor kid in And you know,
39:45
Speaker 1: I've I've been around a lot of children and over
39:48
Speaker 1: my course as an educator, and sometimes these kids are
39:52
Speaker 1: just they're so disaffected. A lot of people are put
39:55
Speaker 1: off by their behavior sometime, but they're very, very sweet people.
39:58
Speaker 1: And and this, this woman, this monster just just draws
40:03
Speaker 1: him into her web. And I'm just I'm just broken
40:05
Speaker 1: hearted over this thing. It's horrible, you know. I feel
40:09
Speaker 1: bad for any victim, Karen Stark, but for a child
40:13
Speaker 1: that can't understand what's happening, or for someone like this
40:18
Speaker 1: that has, you know, a lesser mental capacity. And it
40:24
Speaker 1: just to think of what that teen boy suffered at
40:30
Speaker 1: the hands of her and her girl remmate. It's just
40:33
Speaker 1: it's just pure evil. Now, Karen, Um, I know you
40:37
Speaker 1: disagree with me, but I swear when I read about
40:41
Speaker 1: people like this, or have tried prosecuted people like this,
40:45
Speaker 1: I am convinced the devil as alive and will. Now
40:48
Speaker 1: a lot of people argue with you, there's no such thing.
40:50
Speaker 1: But when I see people like this woman Jemma Lily,
40:56
Speaker 1: I really don't have any doubt in my mind the
40:58
Speaker 1: things she did. How did she come up with these evil,
41:02
Speaker 1: horrible things she did to this boy, Nancy. She's been
41:05
Speaker 1: ruminated about them since she was a teenager and she
41:09
Speaker 1: was obsessed. Because she was obsessed with serial killers. She
41:12
Speaker 1: read everything that she could, There's no doubt in my mind,
41:15
Speaker 1: so that she could plan this out and get full satisfaction,
41:20
Speaker 1: that feeling of accomplishment, of murder and destruction that she
41:25
Speaker 1: was looking for. And I want to add that Aaron
41:29
Speaker 1: had Asperger's which means that on the artistic spectrum, he
41:34
Speaker 1: was high functioning. He knew what was happening. There's no
41:38
Speaker 1: doubt in my mind that this little boy really suffered
41:43
Speaker 1: and understood what was going on. You know, Karen, that
41:49
Speaker 1: she had created a room, a secret, locked room where
41:53
Speaker 1: they tortured and killed the boy victim. And I looked
41:58
Speaker 1: at the room. It's got a tile lore so it
42:00
Speaker 1: can easily be cleaned of blood or evidence. There is
42:03
Speaker 1: a tarp hanging around all around, you know, four corners,
42:08
Speaker 1: like you know in a hospital when they pull a
42:09
Speaker 1: curtain around you. There is a cot like a gurney
42:14
Speaker 1: with rollers wheels on the bottom. And then it looks
42:17
Speaker 1: like a tool cabinet like the type you get at
42:20
Speaker 1: um Lows or ace or home depot, you know, the
42:23
Speaker 1: big red metal cabinet and you would pull out drawers,
42:28
Speaker 1: red metal drawers, and they've always got tools and nails
42:31
Speaker 1: and screws and whatever all organized on there. It looks
42:35
Speaker 1: like one of those red tool cabinets in there. It
42:38
Speaker 1: looks straight out of a scene of Dexter. Remember, I
42:41
Speaker 1: was just going to say that, Nancy. It sounds like
42:44
Speaker 1: Dexter where he was prepared to take all of the
42:47
Speaker 1: tarp and wrap it around the victim and had that
42:51
Speaker 1: cot there exactly right, That's exactly what it sounds like,
42:55
Speaker 1: except Dexter would only kill the bad guys, not an
42:58
Speaker 1: innocent teen boy with as burgers. Okay, that's right. Now
43:02
Speaker 1: I'm thinking more about this novel that she would work
43:05
Speaker 1: on every single day, and I'm thinking about this little
43:11
Speaker 1: boy's family, this teen boys family, and how they feel. Now, Um,
43:17
Speaker 1: do you think this kind of person here and start
43:19
Speaker 1: could be if she had been caught early on in
43:23
Speaker 1: her life and turned in a different direction. Could she
43:25
Speaker 1: have turned out to be a different kind of person
43:27
Speaker 1: instead of like a sadistic murderer or was this basically
43:31
Speaker 1: part of her genetic makeup and nothing could change it?
43:34
Speaker 1: There is no telling. Nobody is able to really separate,
43:38
Speaker 1: no matter how many times they've tried to study it, Nancy,
43:41
Speaker 1: what is actually inborn and what's due to the environment,
43:46
Speaker 1: And so we must determine that it's both. It's a
43:49
Speaker 1: combination of having that instinct and being raised in the
43:53
Speaker 1: setting that brings it out. That's the best that we
43:56
Speaker 1: know about it, Karen start, Can this woman her be rehabilitated,
44:02
Speaker 1: because you know I don't think she can. Well, you're right, Nancy,
44:05
Speaker 1: absolutely not. You that desire to kill that eu fourier
44:09
Speaker 1: that she wound up getting that will just make her
44:12
Speaker 1: want to do it again more and more, so it
44:14
Speaker 1: will never go away. You cannot rehabilitate this kind of person.
44:18
Speaker 1: Another thing Joseph's got, Morgan. I'm looking at the secret
44:22
Speaker 1: surveillance video of her pushing a car. It looks like
44:26
Speaker 1: a store like Walmart. Um, I don't think it is
44:28
Speaker 1: a Walmart. And it's totally full of hydrochloric acid. Why
44:34
Speaker 1: would people normally buy hydrochloric acid? Well, you use it
44:39
Speaker 1: to to essentially clean with many times you can clean things.
44:42
Speaker 1: I'll give you an example. It's it's so it's so
44:46
Speaker 1: effective and so caustic that you can if you have,
44:48
Speaker 1: for instance, like all the stains on on an area,
44:52
Speaker 1: say on a concrete surface, you can apply to that
44:55
Speaker 1: to actually remove those stains from the surfaces. Uh, it's
44:59
Speaker 1: very costant. It will just strip away all those layers.
45:03
Speaker 1: So you can only imagine, um, what it can do
45:06
Speaker 1: to soft, tender human flesh. It will just eat it away, eroded.
45:10
Speaker 1: And if you this is this is a chilly thing
45:12
Speaker 1: to me, Nancy, what if she wasn't going to use
45:15
Speaker 1: it to dispose of it with? What if she was
45:17
Speaker 1: going to use this as a methodology of torture which
45:21
Speaker 1: is not beyond the pale because it's been done before.
45:23
Speaker 1: There's things that are referred to as acid drips which
45:26
Speaker 1: people have used over years and years extracting information and
45:29
Speaker 1: be me another thing in hydrochloric acid, the old muriatic acid,
45:36
Speaker 1: which I've written about in a couple of my Healing
45:39
Speaker 1: Dean Murder mysteries. Muriatic means pretending to brine or salt,
45:43
Speaker 1: hence myriadic means hydrochloric, and the name is sometimes used.
45:47
Speaker 1: I've always called it muriatic acid, but it's now called
45:50
Speaker 1: hydrochloric acid. And um, there was a French chemist, Joseph
45:55
Speaker 1: Louise Gay Lussac, and I had to learn all about
45:59
Speaker 1: that to write one of my books. So the thing
46:01
Speaker 1: about myriadic acid, and I believe I used the black
46:06
Speaker 1: Swan myriadic acid in my book, if I recall, is
46:09
Speaker 1: that it unlike detergent or bleach or a washing machine
46:14
Speaker 1: or a dishwasher, it can in fact destroy DNA and
46:19
Speaker 1: that's hard to do. Joe Scott Morgan. Yeah, it is
46:23
Speaker 1: to go down to the very root of our existence
46:25
Speaker 1: to get into uh well, not just the soft, tender flesh,
46:29
Speaker 1: but also it can literally dissolve bone after a period
46:32
Speaker 1: of time, and it's not a very long time that
46:33
Speaker 1: would take to do that. Now, in her jurisdiction, Alan,
46:39
Speaker 1: I don't believe they've got the death penalty. So bottom line,
46:42
Speaker 1: she'll probably do get a life sentence and she'll probably
46:46
Speaker 1: do twenty years of it, and some judge somewhere we'll
46:48
Speaker 1: let her go and she'll be back out on the street.
46:50
Speaker 1: I'll tell you one thing, I'm not inviting her home
46:53
Speaker 1: to dinner. That's why I don't like parole, because they
46:56
Speaker 1: get out, they get a new name, and they start
46:59
Speaker 1: all over again. It's not some twisted desire to hurt someone.
47:03
Speaker 1: Or seek revenge or the joy of knowing someone's behind bars.
47:07
Speaker 1: It's to save an innocent person fifteen years from now
47:11
Speaker 1: when they get out and are wandering around and come
47:15
Speaker 1: upon an innocent person just like this boy. I wish
47:18
Speaker 1: you could see a picture of him. This kid um
47:23
Speaker 1: just big blue eyes. He looks like he wouldn't hurt
47:27
Speaker 1: a flee. I don't know how she actually decided on him,
47:32
Speaker 1: but his body. Yeah, this body ended up in a
47:35
Speaker 1: shallow grave covered with cement. This boy, the teen boy
47:40
Speaker 1: family still in mourning. Aaron Patients, God rest his soul
47:45
Speaker 1: and made these two wrought in health. Nancy Grace seeking justice,
47:51
Speaker 1: signing off, goodbye friend,