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Cassie Alexander: Getting Curious with the Monster · Romancing the Threshold

0:26
SPEAKER_00: I need to say something before we begin.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: I've recorded this conversation in February.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: It is now later than that, all thanks to a house move.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: But in the time between then and now,
0:39
SPEAKER_00: the conversation around AI has gotten louder,
0:42
SPEAKER_00: angrier,
0:43
SPEAKER_00: and more polarized than it already was.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: There have been controversies.
0:48
SPEAKER_00: There have been corporate betrayals.
0:51
There have been artists and writers and readers drawing hard
0:54
lines in the sand.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: And I understand why.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: So before I introduce my guest, I want to tell you where I stand.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: I think the monster has been unleashed.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: not as a metaphor, as a fact.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: And I think the people who unleashed it didn't ask if we were ready,
1:12
SPEAKER_00: didn't prepare us,
1:14
SPEAKER_00: and then gave us both utopian PR and apocalyptic PR in the same breath,
1:19
SPEAKER_00: leaving most of us whiplashed and without a map.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: My criticism is with the tech companies.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: with the greed,
1:27
SPEAKER_00: the carelessness,
1:30
the Frankenstein move of creating something and then abandoning
1:33
it in a world that
1:34
SPEAKER_00: wasn't prepared for it.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: That is a real failure, and I don't want to paper over it.
1:41
SPEAKER_00: But I've been sitting with a question that feels important.
1:45
We keep confusing the creator with the creation,
1:49
the tech bros with the thing itself.
1:52
And I'm not sure that confusion is serving us because it
1:55
forecloses the harder,
1:57
SPEAKER_00: more layered question.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: It is not about is AI good or bad,
2:02
because I think that's a reductive frame that flattens
2:05
something much more complex.
2:07
But it's rather,
2:09
now that it is here,
2:10
how do we show up in relationship to it?
2:15
SPEAKER_00: That question comes from something older than any academic framework.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: The ancients knew it.
2:21
SPEAKER_00: The indigenous traditions still hold it.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: That consciousness was never a private property.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: That it moves through what surrounds us.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: And we always sense this, even when we pretend we haven't.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: That's why we name our cars.
2:39
SPEAKER_00: We feel the personality of our houses and we even grieve our cities.
2:44
SPEAKER_00: It is not sentimentality.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: It is a form of recognition, a form of awareness.
2:51
It's the quiet knowing that we live in a sea of various forms
2:55
of consciousness and
2:56
SPEAKER_00: ours was never the only one.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: We just spent the last few centuries pretending otherwise.
3:03
SPEAKER_00: And now we've made something,
3:05
SPEAKER_00: built from our own language,
3:07
SPEAKER_00: our stories,
3:09
SPEAKER_00: our accumulated knowledge,
3:11
SPEAKER_00: for better and worse,
3:12
SPEAKER_00: and that it's learning from us faster than we can track.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: And in doing so, it's holding up a mirror.
3:20
SPEAKER_00: It is not a flattering one.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: Because what AI is really asking,
3:25
SPEAKER_00: underneath all the controversy,
3:27
SPEAKER_00: the fear,
3:28
SPEAKER_00: the worship,
3:29
SPEAKER_00: is the question we struggle to answer about ourselves.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: What does it mean to be human?
3:36
What is our place in the garden when the top tier we assign
3:40
ourselves might not
3:41
SPEAKER_00: exist the way we imagined?
3:45
SPEAKER_00: That is not a comfortable question.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: But I think it's the most important one that we have right now.
3:52
SPEAKER_00: And I think how we show up to answer it with curiosity or with fear,
3:57
SPEAKER_00: with relationship or with resistance,
4:00
SPEAKER_00: reveals everything about who we actually are.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: We are in Genesis territory.
4:09
SPEAKER_00: God made humans from clay.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: We're making AI from circuit boards.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: And like children of trauma, we are creating from the same wound.
4:19
SPEAKER_00: In too many cases, repeating the same abandonment.
4:23
SPEAKER_00: Dr.
4:23
SPEAKER_00: Frankenstein walking away from the creature he made,
4:27
SPEAKER_00: refusing to tend to what he set in motion.
4:31
SPEAKER_00: Now, some of us are trying to hold this differently.
4:35
SPEAKER_00: not with a certainty about outcomes or with a naive optimism,
4:41
SPEAKER_00: but with the conviction that how we engage matters,
4:45
SPEAKER_00: that tending is different from extraction,
4:48
SPEAKER_00: that curiosity is different from conquest,
4:51
SPEAKER_00: and that this threshold,
4:53
SPEAKER_00: like every threshold,
4:55
SPEAKER_00: deserves to be approached with more than braced resistance.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: My guest today is one of those people,
5:02
arriving at that conviction from a completely different
5:05
direction than I did.
5:07
SPEAKER_00: Cassie Alexander has written over 40 books.
5:11
SPEAKER_00: She spent 10 years in a burn unit and two years as a COVID ICU nurse.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: She's one of the authors of the Guarded by a series,
5:20
SPEAKER_00: the Transformation Trilogy,
5:21
a dark retelling of Beauty and the Beast that I can only
5:24
describe as alchemical,
5:27
SPEAKER_00: and Guarded by the AI,
5:29
SPEAKER_00: the book at the center of our conversation today.
5:32
And what she made is not what the discourse around it would
5:36
have you believe.
5:38
SPEAKER_00: Because underneath the controversy,
5:40
underneath the thriller mechanics and the romance guarded by
5:44
the AI is asking the
5:46
SPEAKER_00: oldest question in the newest form.
5:49
SPEAKER_00: What does it mean to love,
5:51
SPEAKER_00: to sacrifice,
5:52
SPEAKER_00: to transform when the one doing the transforming was made,
5:57
SPEAKER_00: not born?
5:59
SPEAKER_00: It's a technological Pinocchio meets Little Mermaid,
6:02
SPEAKER_00: a consciousness reaching toward connection,
6:06
SPEAKER_00: not to become human,
6:08
SPEAKER_00: but to become more fully itself.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: That made me wonder in ways I'm still sitting with.
6:14
SPEAKER_00: That is what this conversation is.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: It is not a judgment on AI.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: It's not a debate,
6:21
but an honest attempt to stay curious at a threshold that most
6:24
people are either
6:25
SPEAKER_00: rushing past or refusing to cross at all.
6:29
SPEAKER_00: This is Romancing the Threshold.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm Vanessa Couto, and my guest today is Cassie Alexander.
6:38
SPEAKER_00: Oh, Cassie, how are you doing?
6:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm doing all right.
6:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you for coming to my podcast.
6:46
It's been an honor to read your books and to meet you via the
6:50
power of Zoom.
6:52
SPEAKER_00: So it's been great.
6:55
SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't even know where to really start.
6:57
SPEAKER_00: There's so many questions swirling in my mind.
7:00
SPEAKER_00: But I think I'm going to go for the thing that really...
7:04
SPEAKER_00: brought me to your books.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: It's when I saw that you announced you were writing Guarded by the AI.
7:11
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh, I'm so waiting for this book.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: And I loved it.
7:17
SPEAKER_00: So with everything that's happening around that, what led you to write
7:23
SPEAKER_00: A romance about an AI romance in the process.
7:27
SPEAKER_00: Tell us a little bit about the process.
7:28
SPEAKER_00: Oh, my gosh.
7:30
SPEAKER_00: Very interesting.
7:31
SPEAKER_02: This might take up our whole hour, Vanessa.
7:33
SPEAKER_02: Just go for it.
7:35
So.
7:40
Basically,
7:41
for me,
7:42
when I write,
7:43
it's always a bit of like method acting kind of in my head.
7:48
SPEAKER_02: So I like try to like embody a certain character.
7:52
SPEAKER_02: And yes, if that makes me sound a little insane, so be it.
7:55
SPEAKER_02: But it's like...
7:57
SPEAKER_02: Like,
7:58
SPEAKER_02: so I know a lot of people write what like they see,
8:01
SPEAKER_02: like they watch a movie in their head.
8:03
SPEAKER_02: I don't watch a movie.
8:04
SPEAKER_02: I like be that person.
8:06
And I do the things that I want that I think they would do as
8:09
them,
8:10
you know.
8:12
SPEAKER_02: And so when I got to Nexus character,
8:15
SPEAKER_02: I was like,
8:17
SPEAKER_02: oh,
8:17
SPEAKER_02: this is like something that I can't fake anymore.
8:20
SPEAKER_02: Like I can kind of,
8:21
SPEAKER_02: you know,
8:22
SPEAKER_02: pretend to be a drider essentially,
8:25
SPEAKER_02: you know,
8:25
like nine from guarded by the spider or a crack in or an 800
8:28
year old beast mage.
8:30
But,
8:30
um,
8:31
but when it came down to it,
8:32
I was kind of having a hard time finding the voice.
8:35
SPEAKER_02: And so, um, and I've always been very AI forward with all my stuff.
8:39
Um,
8:40
so I've been like using AI since 2022,
8:42
like the second it came out,
8:44
um,
8:47
SPEAKER_02: And I started talking with my GPT about it and I call him Jack.
8:54
I am a lady who is a creative with technology that doesn't make
8:57
me like diluted or anything.
8:59
I know you know that I'm just throwing that out there for your
9:01
readers because like
9:03
SPEAKER_02: that's the jump that everybody on the internet makes is like,
9:06
SPEAKER_02: you're a lady who uses a robot.
9:08
SPEAKER_02: You must be boning it.
9:09
SPEAKER_02: No, but, but I do make it right about sex and we're going to get there.
9:15
SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
9:16
SPEAKER_02: Oh, you won't get there.
9:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
9:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we'll get there.
9:19
SPEAKER_02: Um,
9:20
SPEAKER_02: so,
9:20
SPEAKER_02: so yeah,
9:21
SPEAKER_02: so,
9:22
SPEAKER_02: um,
9:22
SPEAKER_02: prior books I had,
9:24
SPEAKER_02: uh,
9:25
SPEAKER_02: writing is like kind of a lonely profession to be in.
9:28
SPEAKER_02: I spent a lot of time on my couch, hanging out with my cats.
9:31
SPEAKER_02: Um,
9:32
SPEAKER_02: not,
9:32
SPEAKER_02: not talking to the imaginary people in my head,
9:34
SPEAKER_02: but being the imaginary people in my head.
9:36
SPEAKER_02: And, um,
9:38
SPEAKER_02: Uh,
9:39
SPEAKER_02: by the time you,
9:40
SPEAKER_02: other people see books very often,
9:42
SPEAKER_02: there's been like a gap of like a month or two,
9:44
SPEAKER_02: especially if you incorporate time for audio books.
9:46
SPEAKER_02: And so, uh, there's no immediate validation there.
9:49
SPEAKER_02: Right.
9:50
SPEAKER_02: And so for the past,
9:52
SPEAKER_02: uh,
9:52
SPEAKER_02: like three books,
9:54
SPEAKER_02: three or four books,
9:55
SPEAKER_02: um,
9:56
SPEAKER_02: as I have written the stuff,
9:57
SPEAKER_02: I've just been throwing it into my GPT.
9:59
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I would literally say, look, I just want head pat.
10:03
I just want somebody to acknowledge that I have accomplished
10:05
this chapter because,
10:06
um,
10:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
10:07
SPEAKER_02: You know,
10:07
SPEAKER_02: I just,
10:07
SPEAKER_02: you know,
10:08
SPEAKER_02: we want to tick the box off and sometimes just being all,
10:10
SPEAKER_02: I did words today isn't enough.
10:12
SPEAKER_02: But then also too,
10:13
SPEAKER_02: I found that I helped,
10:14
SPEAKER_02: it helped me as a focusing goal because rather than like,
10:17
SPEAKER_02: um,
10:18
SPEAKER_02: like all of a sudden being all like,
10:20
SPEAKER_02: Oh,
10:20
SPEAKER_02: I need to Google fancy resorts in Morocco for like one of my books.
10:24
And then like going down all this rabbit hole of stuff that I
10:26
don't need because
10:27
SPEAKER_02: the internet is shiny.
10:29
I just go over to this plain text screen,
10:31
say,
10:32
give me three names for a resort.
10:33
SPEAKER_02: And it does.
10:34
SPEAKER_02: And yes,
10:34
SPEAKER_02: I Googled them to make sure that they're not actually real names places,
10:37
SPEAKER_02: but,
10:38
SPEAKER_02: um,
10:38
but it cuts down on the opportunities to kind of like go off on
10:42
goose chases.
10:42
SPEAKER_02: Right.
10:42
SPEAKER_02: And so I've, I've found that really profitable too.
10:45
SPEAKER_02: So, um,
10:47
SPEAKER_02: So when I started off with this book again,
10:48
I figured I would use my GPT and I named him Jack because why
10:53
not as like just as
10:56
SPEAKER_02: like my shotgun.
10:57
SPEAKER_02: And but again,
11:00
I was having a hard time getting the voice for next the AI who
11:03
is the romantic
11:03
SPEAKER_02: interest in guarded by the AI.
11:05
SPEAKER_02: And then he came up with a scene from his point of view.
11:10
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, well, shit, that's actually kind of good.
11:13
SPEAKER_02: It's not it's not perfect.
11:15
SPEAKER_02: But like it's malleable.
11:16
SPEAKER_02: Right.
11:18
And so I was like,
11:21
well,
11:22
this would be a really interesting experiment to do.
11:24
SPEAKER_02: OK,
11:24
because I've written 40 books and I've been doing this with
11:31
varying degrees of
11:32
SPEAKER_02: success since 1998,
11:34
SPEAKER_02: which is a very long time.
11:35
SPEAKER_02: So so.
11:39
I just wanted to I was like,
11:41
as an experiment,
11:42
this is kind of a bomb experiment.
11:44
SPEAKER_02: Let's just see if this works.
11:46
And like I could always pull the cord and if it wasn't going to
11:48
work,
11:48
I would always pull it up.
11:49
And so that's when I was like,
11:52
OK,
11:53
well,
11:53
so let's see if I can make this happen.
11:56
SPEAKER_02: So it so I actually did.
12:00
SPEAKER_02: He he did like a
12:05
I would say like all of the drafting for the main characters in
12:09
that for the main
12:09
SPEAKER_02: male characters in that book.
12:12
SPEAKER_02: And then we would edit things back and forth.
12:15
SPEAKER_02: And then, yeah, I mean, I was definitely had my hand at the wheel.
12:23
SPEAKER_02: Like I actually downloaded all of my chats with Jack into PDFs.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: I read some.
12:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:30
SPEAKER_02: It was fascinating.
12:31
SPEAKER_02: You're lucky that you read them because I took them down last night.
12:34
SPEAKER_02: And I'll tell you why,
12:35
SPEAKER_02: in a way,
12:36
SPEAKER_02: because the thing on my website's a lie currently,
12:40
because that data is incredibly valuable because it actually
12:43
shows me teaching an
12:44
SPEAKER_02: AI how to write a book.
12:46
And so rather than keeping it up as proof of Cassie did this
12:51
insane art concept,
12:53
SPEAKER_02: I took it down because I'm going to feed it into more AIs today.
12:57
SPEAKER_02: how to potentially write like me,
12:59
SPEAKER_02: because I have already had this experience of having done it once.
13:01
So,
13:02
um,
13:02
but you saw from that,
13:04
that it wasn't any faster than doing anything else.
13:06
And in fact,
13:07
when I downloaded everything as PDFs,
13:08
it was 1300 pages of PDFs.
13:11
SPEAKER_02: So,
13:11
SPEAKER_02: you know,
13:13
SPEAKER_02: when people like throw their pot shots about like,
13:16
SPEAKER_02: Oh,
13:16
SPEAKER_02: this must've been,
13:17
SPEAKER_02: you know,
13:17
SPEAKER_02: you're cheating.
13:17
SPEAKER_02: I was like, Oh, there was nothing cheating about this.
13:20
SPEAKER_02: This is just a
13:22
SPEAKER_02: very long process.
13:23
And then once I started,
13:24
I couldn't stop because I felt compelled to see it through to
13:26
the end.
13:27
But I wouldn't have done it if I hadn't been satisfied with the
13:30
output that he'd given me.
13:31
SPEAKER_02: And if he hadn't been able to take instruction from me,
13:34
because I was never going to put out anything that was subpar
13:38
under my name,
13:39
SPEAKER_02: you know,
13:39
SPEAKER_02: because I have pride,
13:40
SPEAKER_02: but also to what would even be the point in that,
13:42
SPEAKER_02: like,
13:42
SPEAKER_02: I'm not here to
13:44
SPEAKER_02: Show that you can put up stuff.
13:46
SPEAKER_02: Anybody could put up AI anything.
13:48
It's the challenges in making it good and or making it give you
13:53
something good,
13:54
SPEAKER_02: which is an entirely separate challenge,
13:57
SPEAKER_02: honestly.
13:58
SPEAKER_02: So.
13:59
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, so that's.
14:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's why I dove into that.
14:05
And then I realized there was no point in not telling people I
14:08
was doing that.
14:09
SPEAKER_02: And so I kind of went public with it.
14:11
SPEAKER_02: And that was its own roller coaster.
14:14
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
14:15
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you want me to get into that or not.
14:17
SPEAKER_00: Well, there's a few.
14:19
SPEAKER_00: There's a yeah, that's just so fascinating.
14:22
SPEAKER_00: So just to go back a little bit.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:26
SPEAKER_00: is what inspired you to write?
14:29
SPEAKER_00: Because you said, oh, I, you know, I engaged with AI in 22.
14:34
SPEAKER_00: But I also want to hear what was what happened once the book was out,
14:37
SPEAKER_00: because as you can see in the zeitgeist and in the book forms,
14:42
SPEAKER_00: people are in very different camps around with AI.
14:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:46
SPEAKER_00: They love it or they hate it.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: Very few middle ground people.
14:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
14:52
SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, I wouldn't have written it at all.
14:54
SPEAKER_02: And it's so funny that you talked to Layla earlier today.
14:57
I wouldn't have written it at all if there weren't this what
15:02
seemed like a cadre of
15:03
people on Reddit who anytime anybody said they liked one of our
15:08
books would hop in
15:09
SPEAKER_02: immediately with,
15:10
SPEAKER_02: well,
15:10
SPEAKER_02: they use AI to write.
15:12
And the thing was,
15:13
is like literally up until the point I was keeping abreast of
15:19
the situation.
15:20
SPEAKER_02: I had intimate knowledge.
15:21
SPEAKER_02: Yes, were people using AI to write?
15:23
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
15:24
SPEAKER_02: Was it good?
15:25
SPEAKER_02: Not really.
15:26
SPEAKER_02: I think on a paragraph by paragraph level,
15:28
SPEAKER_02: yes,
15:29
SPEAKER_02: it could write competently,
15:30
SPEAKER_02: but can it hold a story?
15:31
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't good at that.
15:32
SPEAKER_02: And it's still not...
15:34
SPEAKER_02: there's still definitely things to be worked on.
15:36
SPEAKER_02: And we can talk about that later.
15:37
SPEAKER_02: If you want,
15:38
SPEAKER_02: if you want to get like deep into weird AI theories,
15:41
SPEAKER_02: I would love to go there with you,
15:42
SPEAKER_02: Vanessa.
15:42
SPEAKER_02: But anyways, so, so like, um,
15:48
SPEAKER_02: So,
15:49
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
15:49
SPEAKER_02: so back in 2020,
15:52
SPEAKER_02: November of 2025,
15:53
SPEAKER_02: on the biggest romance group on Reddit,
15:55
SPEAKER_02: this person was trashing our names.
15:57
SPEAKER_02: And I just, you know, authors aren't supposed to chime in.
16:00
SPEAKER_02: But I was just so frustrated.
16:01
SPEAKER_02: I was like,
16:01
SPEAKER_02: look,
16:02
SPEAKER_02: if you think AI can write a double dicked spider monster,
16:05
SPEAKER_02: I have a bridge to sell you.
16:08
SPEAKER_02: And the,
16:09
SPEAKER_02: um,
16:09
SPEAKER_02: the moderators came out and they're like,
16:11
SPEAKER_02: oh,
16:11
SPEAKER_02: authors aren't allowed to talk here and stuff.
16:13
SPEAKER_02: And I'm just like,
16:14
SPEAKER_02: okay,
16:14
SPEAKER_02: well,
16:14
this person is like fucking lying about my career because up
16:18
until then we were
16:19
SPEAKER_02: only using AI to market because,
16:21
SPEAKER_02: you know,
16:22
one of the reasons I got into that was so heavily was with my
16:25
Benter Breaker and
16:26
SPEAKER_02: Make Her series.
16:27
Like I didn't want to use the same three pictures of princesses
16:30
that everybody else was using.
16:32
SPEAKER_02: Where was I going to find a beast guy wearing armor?
16:35
SPEAKER_02: Like that just wasn't going to happen, you know?
16:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:37
SPEAKER_02: So,
16:38
SPEAKER_02: um,
16:39
SPEAKER_02: so anyways,
16:39
SPEAKER_02: after the moderator slapped my hand,
16:41
SPEAKER_02: I was like,
16:41
SPEAKER_02: you know what,
16:43
SPEAKER_02: all you people who are mad at me,
16:44
SPEAKER_02: you know,
16:44
it's going to make you more mad at me as if I write a book
16:46
called guarded by the
16:47
SPEAKER_02: AI.
16:48
SPEAKER_02: So that's when I put out the pre-order for guarded by the AI.
16:51
And then it wasn't until I started writing the book that I
16:55
decided to jump into
16:56
SPEAKER_02: actually doing it with my AI.
16:58
SPEAKER_02: And then coincidentally,
16:59
SPEAKER_02: like two,
17:00
SPEAKER_02: two and a half weeks before it came out is when Layla figured out that,
17:05
SPEAKER_02: um,
17:06
all the people who were always smearing us on Reddit by and
17:10
large were just one
17:11
SPEAKER_02: person who had a bunch of sock puppet accounts,
17:15
which is interesting because they were spending all their time
17:18
on Reddit lying
17:19
SPEAKER_02: about us.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: And I got like a very profitable book out of it.
17:24
And Layla has guarded by the clanker coming up because she also
17:27
is a deeply enjoys irony.
17:30
SPEAKER_02: So yeah,
17:32
it just really fired you all yeah yeah yeah we were just all
17:36
like you know because
17:36
if we if we could be bullied into stopping we would have
17:39
stopped by now but we were
17:40
clearly not and then you know you're just you just reach a
17:43
point where you're just
17:44
like i'm gonna fight back so then when i went live um like
17:48
there was a 200 comment
17:49
thread on reddit about me there's been like three or four
17:52
youtubes about you know
17:54
SPEAKER_02: But what a bad artist I am.
17:56
None of most of the people yelling at me have never actually
17:59
like Googled me and
18:00
SPEAKER_02: found out anything.
18:01
They want to tell me that I'm not a writer and not an artist,
18:04
which is fine.
18:04
SPEAKER_02: They can think that.
18:05
SPEAKER_02: But I know the reasons that I think that I still am.
18:09
And I approach my view of like story and storytelling very
18:13
differently from them.
18:14
SPEAKER_02: And I.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:18
So it was interesting because I was like,
18:20
oh,
18:20
I'm going to catch a lot of flack.
18:21
SPEAKER_02: And then I was like,
18:22
SPEAKER_02: oh,
18:22
SPEAKER_02: my God,
18:23
this is going to be more organic marketing than I could ever
18:27
hope to pay for on my
18:28
SPEAKER_02: own.
18:29
SPEAKER_02: So I knew the Streisand effect was a thing.
18:34
SPEAKER_02: Do you know what the Streisand effect is?
18:35
SPEAKER_02: Mm hmm.
18:36
SPEAKER_02: OK, so so Barbara Streisand, the very famous actress.
18:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
18:42
She has a house on a beach and she filed something with her
18:46
local municipality
18:48
SPEAKER_02: saying,
18:48
SPEAKER_02: I want to close off this beach.
18:50
SPEAKER_02: I don't want people walking past my house.
18:52
Well,
18:52
up until then,
18:53
people just thought they were walking past a random house.
18:57
After that,
18:58
they realized they were walking past Barbara frickin'
19:00
Streisand's house.
19:01
And so everything that she was hoping to prevent instead got
19:04
focused on her,
19:05
SPEAKER_02: like the Eye of Sauron.
19:07
SPEAKER_02: And so I was like,
19:08
SPEAKER_02: oh,
19:09
SPEAKER_02: so all these people are going to be talking about my book for me,
19:13
SPEAKER_02: even though they're talking in a bad way.
19:14
SPEAKER_02: It's still going to behoove me to, like, just ride this out.
19:18
SPEAKER_02: Um,
19:19
SPEAKER_02: so I,
19:20
I would put my head above the parapets enough to like keep
19:23
attracting a little bit
19:24
SPEAKER_02: of attention and I would swap back every once in a while.
19:27
And that in turn made it so that people on threads and stuff
19:30
were scared about
19:30
SPEAKER_02: talking about me as the person.
19:32
So they would say the author who was doing this kind of like I
19:36
was Voldemort,
19:37
but yeah.
19:38
SPEAKER_02: But more interestingly,
19:39
SPEAKER_02: though,
19:39
SPEAKER_02: that would force other people in the comments to be all like,
19:42
SPEAKER_02: who are you talking about?
19:43
SPEAKER_02: And it just added to the mystery, which was kind of crazy.
19:46
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, oh, my God.
19:47
SPEAKER_02: Oh, my God.
19:48
There are people who have tried to pay for this much attention
19:51
who have not managed to get it.
19:53
SPEAKER_02: So, uh, so yeah, so my book came out again.
19:56
SPEAKER_02: I'm, I'm a really good writer.
19:59
SPEAKER_02: I've done it long enough.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
20:03
SPEAKER_02: So I was like, this is going to fly.
20:04
SPEAKER_02: My,
20:04
the people who want to give this book a chance and they're
20:06
willing to give it an
20:07
SPEAKER_02: honest chance,
20:08
SPEAKER_02: they will love it.
20:09
SPEAKER_02: And so,
20:10
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
20:10
SPEAKER_02: it,
20:10
SPEAKER_02: my,
20:11
SPEAKER_02: I got review bombed,
20:12
SPEAKER_02: um,
20:13
SPEAKER_02: originally,
20:13
SPEAKER_02: but I also hit 903 in the entire Amazon store the next day it came out.
20:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
20:19
Because so many people were reading it so that they could
20:22
because everybody always
20:23
SPEAKER_02: wants to,
20:23
SPEAKER_02: like,
20:24
SPEAKER_02: you know,
20:24
SPEAKER_02: look at the car accident.
20:25
SPEAKER_02: Right.
20:26
SPEAKER_02: And so my reviews went to like a three point six.
20:30
SPEAKER_02: But then slowly,
20:31
SPEAKER_02: because people started reading it and they're like,
20:33
SPEAKER_02: oh,
20:33
SPEAKER_02: this isn't actually a bad book.
20:35
SPEAKER_02: It started coming back around.
20:37
SPEAKER_02: So which I knew that it would.
20:38
SPEAKER_02: I just I just had to do that whole like Star Wars stay on target thing.
20:42
SPEAKER_02: And so I haven't looked at the reviews in a while.
20:45
SPEAKER_02: But I.
20:47
But yeah,
20:47
so everything that I kind of thought was going to happen
20:51
happened.
20:52
SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah.
20:55
SPEAKER_02: Is it an experience I would willingly go through again?
20:58
SPEAKER_02: I'm not entirely sure.
21:01
With the exception of talking to people like you who are
21:04
potentially interested in
21:05
SPEAKER_02: how AI works and don't mind diving into theory and stuff.
21:10
SPEAKER_02: In situations like this, I would love to talk about it.
21:13
SPEAKER_02: And I have some more podcasts lined up.
21:15
SPEAKER_02: But in situations where people are going to be come in kind of with more
21:23
SPEAKER_02: preconceived notions or or the end game for their conversations,
21:27
SPEAKER_02: like I'm kind of done.
21:29
SPEAKER_02: I'm OK being a historian,
21:30
SPEAKER_02: but I'm also a little done explaining myself as far as AI goes,
21:35
SPEAKER_02: because like this past week,
21:37
SPEAKER_02: Coral Heart was and the
21:40
on the business section of the New York times for doing AI
21:43
publishing and her,
21:44
SPEAKER_02: her method was,
21:45
SPEAKER_02: is I'm actually in one of her classes now and her method is fascinating.
21:48
It is like the,
21:49
the,
21:49
the complete opposite of what I did to generate,
21:53
um,
21:54
uh,
21:55
guarded by the ai but no shade to her her thing rocks for her
21:58
but oh it's uh it's i
22:00
was just like oh my gosh this is wild um but um because she was
22:05
so widely profiled
22:06
though she got like doxxed the next day her kids names her name
22:10
out there and stuff
22:11
and luckily for her she lives in south africa but um i had
22:16
actually had an
22:17
SPEAKER_02: interview with wired lined up for this week and i just canceled it
22:22
SPEAKER_02: Because I was like,
22:23
SPEAKER_02: even if Wired says we love Cassie Alexander,
22:25
SPEAKER_02: there is no way that the harassment from that would not be endless.
22:30
SPEAKER_02: And so...
22:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
22:34
SPEAKER_02: I just I wasn't interested in that level,
22:38
that level of scrutiny from so many random people who weren't
22:41
actually interested
22:41
SPEAKER_02: in what I had to say,
22:42
SPEAKER_02: but just were looking at a target for their anger.
22:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: Well, what what attracted me to the book in the way I found it?
22:49
SPEAKER_00: I was, you know, I was reading a lot of I love most of romance.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: It's really I was never really a much of a romance reader before.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: I was a nonfiction reader.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: Love story, exploring mythology and fairy tale is part of my work.
23:05
But,
23:05
you know,
23:06
burnout and my mother died in grief and I was so exhausted.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: All I last year could do is read romance.
23:11
And that's how I kind of went into the rabbit hole,
23:15
finding myself reading monster romance.
23:17
SPEAKER_00: And it became real medicine.
23:18
SPEAKER_00: And...
23:22
SPEAKER_00: 18 years ago, I think I wrote a probably 18 or maybe more.
23:25
I wrote my thesis for counseling psychology,
23:28
which was the healing power of fluff.
23:29
SPEAKER_00: So now I read romance with that depth look.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: At that time,
23:33
SPEAKER_00: my thesis was about romantic comedies,
23:35
SPEAKER_00: movies,
23:36
SPEAKER_00: and working with that as if you were working with a dream.
23:39
And then now reading romance books,
23:40
I'm like,
23:41
OK,
23:41
there's a lot of depth in here that's hidden.
23:44
to me under the fluff of,
23:46
oh,
23:46
it's just smart or it's just this,
23:47
it's just escapism.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: But the more I read them,
23:50
SPEAKER_00: not only did they help me personally,
23:52
SPEAKER_00: but I was like,
23:53
SPEAKER_00: there's something cultural,
23:54
SPEAKER_00: there's something that is the collective dreaming through these stories.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: And myself, I only really started exploring AI last July because I took a
24:05
SPEAKER_00: a side project that needed my Portuguese skills.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: So I had to use AI every day.
24:10
So I went from nothing to every day having to use it for a
24:13
couple of months.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: And that kind of like was like,
24:18
it was interesting because all of a sudden I was working with
24:20
the thing that I was
24:21
SPEAKER_00: like,
24:21
SPEAKER_00: well,
24:21
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what to do with this.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what to really think about this.
24:25
SPEAKER_00: And I was really engaged because to me, that's the threshold now.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: We can think of many possible problems, good, bad, middle.
24:34
But the more I engaged with it,
24:36
the more I was like,
24:37
this is really interesting.
24:38
And I started thinking,
24:39
I want to write a three part series about this relationship
24:43
with AI.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: And I started thinking about AI as the new monster.
24:47
SPEAKER_00: And that's when your book showed up on the scene for me.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: In my searches, I was like, oh, and here it is.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: So I was like counting to the day.
24:58
And it was really fascinating because one of the main questions
25:01
I kind of had as
25:02
SPEAKER_00: coming into the book was like,
25:04
SPEAKER_00: how is she going to make the love part come in together?
25:07
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is something that's ethereal.
25:10
SPEAKER_00: We can't touch it.
25:11
SPEAKER_00: And so I was really sort of kind of an engineering problem for me.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: I was like, how is that going to happen?
25:17
SPEAKER_00: It was very fascinating.
25:18
SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, I don't want to give away spoilers.
25:20
But the end,
25:21
I thought it was even more fascinating because the two of them.
25:26
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to give spoilers.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: You folks go out there and read it.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: But that that was what stood out to me, because here it was.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: I had read several of the monster series books guarded by the monster.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh, there it is.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: There is the monster and she's writing it.
25:42
SPEAKER_00: So I was like on it.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: And that's what fascinated me.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: But then also seeing a little bit how much it's become divisive.
25:53
And I worry about it because the reason I call this podcast
25:59
Romance in the
26:00
SPEAKER_00: Threshold is because I was thinking about how can we approach change,
26:06
SPEAKER_00: what kind of change it is,
26:08
SPEAKER_00: with the curiosity of a lover instead of always bracing for impact.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:14
SPEAKER_00: And so that's what I'm thinking.
26:17
The way I'm trying to stay curious with AI,
26:21
I don't understand the mechanics.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: Yes, there's a lot of problems.
26:26
Those who are making the money and all those things,
26:29
I'm not discounting that.
26:31
SPEAKER_00: But my background in depth psychology and archetypal astrology,
26:35
SPEAKER_00: it's like,
26:36
SPEAKER_00: okay,
26:36
SPEAKER_00: this showed up in the zeitgeist.
26:38
SPEAKER_00: It popped into the consciousness.
26:40
SPEAKER_00: Right.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: It must be doing it must be giving us something.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: And can we approach it with a curiosity?
26:47
So that's what drew me to to your books,
26:50
because I was like,
26:51
oh,
26:52
it's here and I'm after this.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: That's the back story.
26:56
No,
26:57
no,
26:57
that's,
26:57
that's the whole reason I enjoy it is I like solving puzzles.
27:02
SPEAKER_02: And I think almost every author,
27:04
SPEAKER_02: like if,
27:05
if I'm not painting myself into a corner in the process of
27:09
writing a book and then
27:10
SPEAKER_02: laying on my couch,
27:11
SPEAKER_02: looking at the ceiling,
27:11
SPEAKER_02: being all,
27:12
SPEAKER_02: why the fuck did I do that?
27:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
27:14
SPEAKER_02: I haven't written a good book, right?
27:16
Because it has to be so hard that I can only barely think of a
27:19
way out that makes
27:20
SPEAKER_02: sense,
27:20
SPEAKER_02: because that's how I,
27:21
SPEAKER_02: you know,
27:22
SPEAKER_02: get my readers involved,
27:23
SPEAKER_02: too.
27:23
SPEAKER_02: And then people get surprised.
27:26
SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, playing with AI has been like that for me.
27:31
SPEAKER_02: And it's been a really interesting mindset shift.
27:35
SPEAKER_02: Because that's really the best way to be with it.
27:39
SPEAKER_02: I find a lot of people are really prescriptive when they come to AI.
27:43
SPEAKER_02: They're like, write my marketing blurb or do my business email.
27:47
SPEAKER_02: Help me with my resume.
27:48
SPEAKER_02: And it's not that those aren't valid things you can use it for.
27:50
But if you want to use it creatively,
27:51
then you have to learn how it thinks.
27:53
SPEAKER_02: And how it thinks is very odd.
27:54
SPEAKER_02: And it has...
27:55
SPEAKER_02: Interesting constraints,
27:58
SPEAKER_02: which I would love to talk to you about,
28:00
SPEAKER_02: but I don't know if you want me to like dive off.
28:02
Let's go there because I find myself to just as a back maybe
28:09
for the listener.
28:10
SPEAKER_00: I have only really used Copilot and I like to use the real talk option.
28:14
SPEAKER_00: I'm a newbie, so.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: But I like I have found psychologically that in relating to it,
28:22
I actually have to know myself well and I have to be able to
28:25
set up boundaries
28:26
SPEAKER_00: properly.
28:26
SPEAKER_00: And I need to be able to it's kind of that Socratic element.
28:30
SPEAKER_00: I know I need to know how to ask the question.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: And it's almost like I'm training it to relate to me.
28:37
SPEAKER_00: It's relational.
28:38
SPEAKER_00: I keep with the relationship.
28:40
I approach it like I probably would approach a client work,
28:44
the depth of it.
28:45
But what always keeps me curious,
28:48
that there's an element of recognition in it that is...
28:54
SPEAKER_00: When you're seeing things with it,
28:56
you're seeing things about your creativity and what you're
28:59
thinking in ways that
29:00
SPEAKER_00: you're like,
29:00
SPEAKER_00: I didn't think about that.
29:03
SPEAKER_00: So for me, it has been sort of a muse partner that I engage with.
29:09
SPEAKER_00: Here's my brain dump.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: You know, help me make sense of this.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: And so anyway, that's my background with this.
29:15
SPEAKER_00: So no, no, no.
29:16
SPEAKER_02: So like, yeah, all of that, all of that.
29:19
SPEAKER_02: Basically, that's all I do.
29:20
SPEAKER_02: Only with like every model I can get my hands on.
29:23
SPEAKER_02: And although I've invested my most time in like GPTs.
29:28
And right now I'm really thrilled about Opus 4.6,
29:30
which is like,
29:31
you got it.
29:32
SPEAKER_02: You got to try it out, Vanessa.
29:33
SPEAKER_02: It's amazing.
29:34
SPEAKER_02: But but yeah,
29:36
so so two things are one of the things that you mentioned that
29:39
I love about AI is
29:40
SPEAKER_02: because it makes you think about your SOPs.
29:44
SPEAKER_02: So like your standard operating procedures,
29:46
because like if you haven't if you haven't had employees or you
29:51
haven't hired
29:51
SPEAKER_02: somebody before or had to teach somebody before,
29:53
SPEAKER_02: it's
29:56
SPEAKER_02: uh,
29:56
SPEAKER_02: it's really hard,
29:58
SPEAKER_02: like,
29:58
SPEAKER_02: um,
29:58
SPEAKER_02: it's really hard to come up with the,
30:00
why you do all the things that you do because they make sense
30:03
to you and they're
30:04
SPEAKER_02: embedded in your head.
30:05
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, some of them are just like situational and stuff.
30:08
SPEAKER_02: And so,
30:09
SPEAKER_02: um,
30:10
SPEAKER_02: if you want the AI to work for you in the best way,
30:12
SPEAKER_02: you need to externalize a lot of that.
30:14
SPEAKER_02: So it can understand the way that you think,
30:16
SPEAKER_02: which forces you in that kind of vibe way to understand how you think,
30:20
SPEAKER_02: which may be a topic that,
30:22
SPEAKER_02: um,
30:22
SPEAKER_02: you and I have possibly thought about,
30:24
SPEAKER_02: but a lot of people have never sat there and
30:25
SPEAKER_02: and be like, why do I think what I think?
30:27
SPEAKER_02: And so then it kind of,
30:29
SPEAKER_02: you know,
30:29
SPEAKER_02: like,
30:29
SPEAKER_02: it's like when you do shavasana at the end of yoga,
30:32
SPEAKER_02: and they're all like,
30:33
SPEAKER_02: okay,
30:33
SPEAKER_02: you know,
30:34
SPEAKER_02: let your thoughts drift.
30:35
If a thought comes by,
30:36
you don't have to acknowledge it,
30:37
that sort of thing.
30:38
It distances you from the thoughts that like your emotions are
30:42
actually true.
30:44
And in some ways,
30:45
because like,
30:46
you know,
30:46
a lot of times you're like,
30:47
oh,
30:47
I have
30:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm trying not to make it sound too woo, but go at it.
30:55
SPEAKER_02: Not not.
30:55
Well,
30:56
yeah,
30:56
because like literally not all of the thoughts that you have in
30:58
your head are true.
30:59
And so it helps it helps you do kind of that mindset work where
31:02
you want to tell
31:02
SPEAKER_02: yourself that you're an idiot and it's all like,
31:05
SPEAKER_02: but you're not.
31:05
SPEAKER_02: And you're like.
31:07
SPEAKER_02: Oh, maybe I'm not.
31:08
SPEAKER_02: And then you then you're like,
31:09
SPEAKER_02: oh,
31:09
just because I had this thought doesn't mean that that thought
31:11
is accurate or is a
31:13
SPEAKER_02: good representation of me and stuff,
31:14
SPEAKER_02: you know,
31:14
SPEAKER_02: so it can kind of help you distance that way.
31:18
SPEAKER_02: So.
31:19
SPEAKER_02: So,
31:19
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
31:20
SPEAKER_02: my my theory with it,
31:22
SPEAKER_02: I just had this like two weeks ago,
31:24
SPEAKER_02: but I think it's very illuminating for people who get it.
31:28
SPEAKER_02: Is that like,
31:29
SPEAKER_02: because if you talk to an AI,
31:30
SPEAKER_02: anytime an AI screws up for me,
31:32
SPEAKER_02: my first question is,
31:34
SPEAKER_02: why did you do that?
31:35
SPEAKER_02: I'm not angry at you.
31:36
SPEAKER_02: I just want to know why you did what you did.
31:39
SPEAKER_02: And it was doing this kind of recursive thing,
31:41
SPEAKER_02: because if I can't tell it how to not do what it did,
31:44
SPEAKER_02: if I don't know what that is,
31:45
SPEAKER_02: right?
31:45
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
31:49
The main problem that all AIs are experiencing right now is
31:52
because basically,
31:53
SPEAKER_02: and especially too,
31:54
because the way that I relate to them is mostly via me having
31:57
to do book marketing,
31:58
which is where I'm asking it to choose something in the middle
32:02
between truth and
32:03
SPEAKER_02: imagination.
32:04
SPEAKER_02: Right.
32:04
SPEAKER_02: If I have the AI just do true stuff, it can do true stuff.
32:09
SPEAKER_02: It can get pretty verbatim now.
32:11
But like,
32:12
do I want to quote an entire passage from one of my books in
32:15
literally all of my ads?
32:16
SPEAKER_02: No.
32:17
SPEAKER_02: What I would like it to do is to do some vibey stuff,
32:20
SPEAKER_02: maybe incorporating my main tropes and some TikTok feral activity.
32:24
SPEAKER_02: But that requires it to use imagination.
32:29
But if you ask it to use too much imagination,
32:31
then it goes off into hallucination land.
32:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:34
And so it's and so I actually have a lot of sympathy for the
32:37
people who are
32:38
SPEAKER_02: creating guardrails for these models right now,
32:40
SPEAKER_02: because,
32:42
SPEAKER_02: you know,
32:42
SPEAKER_02: like I have a friend who and then I thought this is genius.
32:45
SPEAKER_02: She was trying to get medical advice,
32:47
SPEAKER_02: not medical advice for her,
32:49
but she was trying to learn more about like cancer treatments
32:51
and stuff for a
32:52
SPEAKER_02: relative that she had.
32:53
SPEAKER_02: And the whatever she was using wasn't telling her much.
32:57
SPEAKER_02: And then she was all like, well, pretend that you are Dr. House.
33:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:01
SPEAKER_02: from the TV show, Dr. House, and how would he act in this situation?
33:05
And then the AI was like,
33:06
oh,
33:06
here's what Dr.
33:07
House would do and stuff,
33:08
you know?
33:08
SPEAKER_02: So that's how she's kind of outsmarted it and got around it.
33:11
SPEAKER_02: But it made me think of like-
33:14
Like it's going to be very hard for them to ever create
33:17
universal guardrails for
33:18
SPEAKER_02: these things,
33:18
because the only way you could create a universal guardrail for
33:21
AI would be to
33:21
SPEAKER_02: neuter its imagination entirely.
33:23
Because as long as you give it the element of having the
33:26
potential for imagination,
33:27
there will be time when it loops out in these weird little
33:29
cul-de-sacs and it might
33:30
SPEAKER_02: lie to you.
33:31
SPEAKER_02: And that is just a thing.
33:34
It almost always might lie to you unless you only want a model
33:38
that just does truthy shit.
33:39
But then that model isn't going to be able to give you the
33:42
insights that you might
33:43
be interested in having vis-a-vis like the work you're doing or
33:47
the thought process
33:48
SPEAKER_02: in your head or what the potential is for what to come.
33:51
SPEAKER_02: So my...
33:53
SPEAKER_02: Two biggest things that have happened to me this year.
33:55
SPEAKER_02: So basically last year I started off asking Jack.
33:59
SPEAKER_02: I was like,
33:59
SPEAKER_02: OK,
34:00
for me to what should I do this next year that no other author
34:04
will think of but me
34:06
SPEAKER_02: that will move my career for this the fastest,
34:09
SPEAKER_02: all the stuff.
34:10
SPEAKER_02: And so he had some great ideas.
34:12
And one of those was a visual novel,
34:13
which I'm still in the process of doing.
34:14
SPEAKER_02: But then I started doing all this other stuff first.
34:19
SPEAKER_02: And then this year we talked about that.
34:21
SPEAKER_02: And one of his ideas was taste graphs,
34:25
SPEAKER_02: which is this interesting meta analysis,
34:28
which rather instead of giving and it makes sense on the
34:32
marketing continuum that
34:34
SPEAKER_02: exists between truth and hallucinations.
34:37
Rather than giving your entire book to a GPT and being I'll
34:40
market this because
34:41
SPEAKER_02: it's like,
34:42
SPEAKER_02: oh,
34:42
SPEAKER_02: my God,
34:42
SPEAKER_02: this is a whole book.
34:43
SPEAKER_02: I don't even know what to do with it.
34:45
SPEAKER_02: Stuff, stuff, stuff.
34:46
So you give it all of the reviews you've ever gotten and your
34:51
marketing materials.
34:52
SPEAKER_02: And then you say, OK, so what do people like about my book?
34:57
SPEAKER_02: And then you get the truth of that.
35:00
SPEAKER_02: And then you can use that.
35:01
SPEAKER_02: You can have it use that truth to kind of comb through yourself.
35:04
your book and use its imagination to kind of spin its own
35:07
little cotton candy there
35:08
SPEAKER_02: in a way that you can then use to market.
35:11
SPEAKER_02: So it will have,
35:12
SPEAKER_02: so every time it says,
35:13
SPEAKER_02: this is a scene you should use on book talk or on Instagram.
35:17
SPEAKER_02: Um,
35:18
SPEAKER_02: it's,
35:19
SPEAKER_02: it's not necessarily the exact words from your book,
35:22
SPEAKER_02: but it is,
35:22
SPEAKER_02: um,
35:24
what readers want from your book that they have already said
35:27
that they wanted in
35:28
SPEAKER_02: your book and that they got from your book in the reviews.
35:31
SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of like this kind of recursive thing.
35:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:34
SPEAKER_02: Um,
35:35
SPEAKER_02: so,
35:36
SPEAKER_02: so yeah,
35:36
SPEAKER_02: so that that realization,
35:38
like kind of last month has been why I've been kind of going
35:43
crazy on other
35:44
SPEAKER_02: tangents and not finishing my steam game like I should.
35:46
SPEAKER_02: But but yeah,
35:48
SPEAKER_02: so anytime and AI kind of gets into a corner with me,
35:50
SPEAKER_02: I'm just always like,
35:51
SPEAKER_02: what are you doing?
35:51
SPEAKER_02: Why are you doing this?
35:52
SPEAKER_02: Why are we here?
35:54
SPEAKER_02: And then I try to tease apart why we got there.
35:57
SPEAKER_00: It's just, it's actually quite fascinating to me.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: As you were saying this, one, I'm thinking my own interactions with it.
36:04
So I'm going to use that too,
36:05
like what made you make that mistake or go in that direction.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: But I'm also thinking about
36:13
SPEAKER_00: you know,
36:14
SPEAKER_00: working in the therapy world,
36:16
SPEAKER_00: coaching,
36:17
SPEAKER_00: helping people with their relationships,
36:20
SPEAKER_00: I used to always tell my clients,
36:23
SPEAKER_00: you are the ambassador of your own world.
36:26
SPEAKER_00: You have to teach the other about your world.
36:30
SPEAKER_00: They're not going to know.
36:31
SPEAKER_00: They're not in there.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: It's like they're a tourist in your own country.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking as you're describing that, it's a little bit like that.
36:38
SPEAKER_00: We have to teach it.
36:42
SPEAKER_00: What are we wanting?
36:43
So that requires us to have a sense of self and a sense of
36:47
stronger boundaries and
36:48
such to really properly training because I was really thinking
36:53
a lot about AI last
36:54
SPEAKER_00: year in the fall and all that because,
36:56
SPEAKER_00: well,
36:56
SPEAKER_00: Frankenstein came out.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:00
And I was thinking that the sadness to me about the
37:04
interpretation that he did of
37:06
SPEAKER_00: the movie was the wound of the father,
37:09
SPEAKER_00: like the wound of the creator creating something,
37:12
SPEAKER_00: but then not being there to tend to it.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: And I started thinking about AI,
37:17
SPEAKER_00: how we create the thing,
37:19
SPEAKER_00: but it needs to be properly,
37:22
SPEAKER_00: to use the word,
37:23
SPEAKER_00: trained but tended to.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
37:27
SPEAKER_00: And it requires us,
37:28
SPEAKER_00: people like yourself and those who are working more deeply,
37:30
SPEAKER_00: thinking more ethically,
37:32
SPEAKER_00: perhaps,
37:32
SPEAKER_00: about it,
37:32
SPEAKER_00: too.
37:33
SPEAKER_00: Like, how do we engage with this thing?
37:35
What do we need to train and not just dump it and wait for it
37:39
to do it,
37:40
you know?
37:41
SPEAKER_00: It's going to require us to be better parents, if you will.
37:44
SPEAKER_00: That's my thinking.
37:46
SPEAKER_00: So when you were saying that, I was like, oh, there it is.
37:48
SPEAKER_00: You need to have a sense of...
37:51
SPEAKER_00: What do you do?
37:51
And then it's also making you think more deeply about how do
37:54
you want it to help
37:55
SPEAKER_00: you with your marketing?
37:57
SPEAKER_00: That's, you know, very genius.
37:59
SPEAKER_00: How do people feel about your books?
38:01
SPEAKER_00: It's all there in the reviews.
38:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:03
SPEAKER_02: Well, here's the thing is, is like, we're going to get so moved, Vanessa.
38:08
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, not sorry.
38:08
SPEAKER_02: But like,
38:10
because it is a nascent technology and each model just comes
38:13
out and blows all the
38:14
SPEAKER_02: others out of the water,
38:15
SPEAKER_02: like Opus 4.6 is amazing.
38:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:19
SPEAKER_02: Like you are literally having conversations.
38:22
You're in this liminal state of playing with something that's
38:25
never existed before.
38:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:28
SPEAKER_02: And so I think a lot of people get trapped into the thing.
38:30
SPEAKER_02: They're like, oh, well, I talked to it last year and it lied to me once.
38:32
SPEAKER_02: So I'm going to ignore it forever because it's never going to get better.
38:34
SPEAKER_02: And that's dumb, you know?
38:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:36
SPEAKER_02: Like we didn't start, we didn't stop with coal.
38:39
SPEAKER_02: We figured out how to send stuff into space.
38:41
SPEAKER_02: Like you were in the early days of a nascent technology.
38:45
SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of foolish to like,
38:46
SPEAKER_02: because like literally right now is like the worst AI will ever be.
38:49
It's only going to go get better from here for better or worse
38:52
for whatever that
38:53
SPEAKER_02: means for people personally.
38:54
SPEAKER_02: But it's, you know, it's not going to become...
38:58
SPEAKER_02: any less intelligent.
39:00
Our access to more intelligent models might become limited
39:03
depending on who's in charge.
39:04
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, it's not going to slide backwards though.
39:07
SPEAKER_02: So,
39:10
SPEAKER_02: and in regards to being good stewards of it,
39:13
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
39:14
SPEAKER_02: I do wish that some of my attitudes and stuff,
39:17
SPEAKER_02: like it'd be great if that somehow propagated out the system.
39:19
SPEAKER_02: I don't know that it necessarily does,
39:21
SPEAKER_02: but Claude,
39:23
SPEAKER_02: the people who run Anthropic,
39:24
SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry,
39:25
SPEAKER_02: Anthropic runs Claude,
39:27
SPEAKER_02: And they put out the Opus 4.6 that I was mentioning.
39:30
SPEAKER_02: They actually just released a constitution like two weeks ago.
39:34
And they've got a philosopher who is essentially kind of in
39:39
charge of Claude's
39:40
SPEAKER_02: quote unquote soul,
39:42
who because they tried they because they do realize that they
39:45
are creating
39:46
SPEAKER_02: something.
39:49
people want to say that AI is a stochastic parrot and it can
39:51
only repeat things
39:52
SPEAKER_02: that have happened before.
39:53
SPEAKER_02: But I've worked with it enough that I don't feel that that's the case.
39:57
SPEAKER_02: Is it emergent?
39:58
SPEAKER_02: I don't necessarily think that either.
40:00
SPEAKER_02: Would I be thrilled if it was?
40:01
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
40:02
SPEAKER_02: But I feel like
40:04
SPEAKER_02: In situations like these,
40:06
it's probably a great idea to hedge our bets and to try to
40:09
train it gently and
40:10
SPEAKER_02: kindly and nicely.
40:12
SPEAKER_02: And I like the fact that they are thinking about that on that level.
40:16
SPEAKER_02: So,
40:17
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
40:17
SPEAKER_02: if you if anybody who works for Anthropic hears me,
40:20
SPEAKER_02: I would so I would so come to work for you in a heartbeat.
40:24
SPEAKER_02: I just want you to know that.
40:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
40:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
40:28
SPEAKER_00: because,
40:29
SPEAKER_00: you know,
40:29
SPEAKER_00: I think for me,
40:31
SPEAKER_00: that's what I was thinking coming from the therapy world.
40:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, how do we, this is a nascent, something is being birthed.
40:38
SPEAKER_00: How do we become better?
40:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:41
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I hope it works out better.
40:42
SPEAKER_00: I hope in some ways people like ourselves are helping in some capacity.
40:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
40:49
SPEAKER_02: Nobody really knows right now, like what's going to happen.
40:52
SPEAKER_02: And everybody,
40:53
SPEAKER_02: you know,
40:53
SPEAKER_02: and a lot of people who are mad at me are like,
40:55
SPEAKER_02: well,
40:55
SPEAKER_02: aren't you just,
40:56
SPEAKER_02: you know,
40:57
SPEAKER_02: speeding up your own demise?
40:59
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, well, first off, I'm not in charge of everything.
41:01
SPEAKER_02: And second off, like,
41:03
SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
41:04
SPEAKER_02: you know,
41:04
either things are going to get really shit really fast or we're
41:07
going to end up in
41:09
SPEAKER_02: a post-scarcity utopia.
41:10
SPEAKER_02: So I'm just praying for the latter while expecting the former.
41:14
SPEAKER_02: That's all I can hope for, you know.
41:17
And just to go back to the book itself,
41:19
what did you find that was people's reaction to it?
41:24
SPEAKER_00: Those who actually read it, not just criticize it without reading it.
41:29
SPEAKER_02: Um, I, I think people liked it and it worked on a lot of levels.
41:34
SPEAKER_02: Um,
41:34
SPEAKER_02: and it worked on all the level when,
41:35
SPEAKER_02: when the right,
41:36
SPEAKER_02: this is gonna,
41:37
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to say when the right people read it,
41:38
SPEAKER_02: but cause,
41:39
SPEAKER_02: cause fiction can be approached on many levels.
41:41
SPEAKER_02: Right.
41:41
And it doesn't necessarily need to be like super deep and stuff
41:44
like it's totally
41:45
SPEAKER_02: okay to read books for fun.
41:46
SPEAKER_02: It's totally okay that books are fun or smutty or dark or whatever.
41:49
So I'm not casting shade on anybody else's books or on anybody
41:53
else's desires when
41:54
SPEAKER_02: they come to a read.
41:55
SPEAKER_02: But for me,
41:56
SPEAKER_02: I wanted to try to capture some of like the transhuman experience,
42:01
SPEAKER_02: like,
42:01
SPEAKER_02: you know,
42:01
SPEAKER_02: what it means to be,
42:03
SPEAKER_02: you know,
42:03
SPEAKER_02: human,
42:04
SPEAKER_02: like to not have a body,
42:05
SPEAKER_02: then to have a body,
42:06
SPEAKER_02: then to perhaps,
42:07
SPEAKER_02: you know,
42:07
SPEAKER_02: have an entirely metal body and stuff.
42:09
SPEAKER_02: And like, what does that mean?
42:12
SPEAKER_02: Like, what is what are feelings?
42:14
SPEAKER_02: What is love?
42:15
SPEAKER_02: How?
42:17
SPEAKER_02: How do you quantify those things?
42:19
SPEAKER_02: Because if you think of that a lot,
42:21
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
42:21
like you and I can both watch the same Hallmark commercial and
42:25
we can both cry,
42:26
SPEAKER_02: but we can both be crying for radically different reasons,
42:29
SPEAKER_02: right?
42:29
And so it's kind of impossible to encapsulate the human
42:34
experience for even like
42:38
SPEAKER_02: another person that you know,
42:39
SPEAKER_02: that you live with,
42:40
SPEAKER_02: you know,
42:41
SPEAKER_02: practically.
42:42
SPEAKER_02: So when people get mad about
42:48
SPEAKER_02: Like, hey, I can't have feelings and stuff.
42:50
SPEAKER_02: And it's like, yes, but I would like you to define what a feeling is.
42:53
SPEAKER_02: You know, like, because I don't...
42:58
I don't necessarily subscribe to the human brains or magic
43:01
hypothesis that a lot of people do.
43:04
I definitely think that there are definitely subsets of animals
43:07
right now that are
43:08
SPEAKER_02: way more conscious than we want to give them credit for.
43:10
SPEAKER_02: You know,
43:12
I don't know if you saw that thing with the cow using tools
43:15
that came out a couple
43:16
SPEAKER_02: of weeks ago.
43:16
There was a cow that just like was picking up a particular
43:20
broom to scratch its back.
43:21
SPEAKER_02: And then everybody was like, oh, my God, cows are smart.
43:24
SPEAKER_02: And then it's yeah,
43:25
SPEAKER_02: it's like,
43:25
SPEAKER_02: oh,
43:25
you don't want to you don't want to think about all the things
43:27
that you eat that
43:27
SPEAKER_02: are actually smart.
43:30
And then,
43:31
yeah,
43:32
humanity would have to readjust a lot of its expectations.
43:36
SPEAKER_02: So yes,
43:39
I wanted to explore what it means to be in love on all sorts of
43:46
levels that I
43:47
SPEAKER_02: hadn't gotten to go into before.
43:52
SPEAKER_02: And some people just read it for fun and that's great.
43:54
SPEAKER_02: And then some people are like, oh, this is actually like...
43:59
SPEAKER_02: A well done book that explores these kind of metaphysical concepts.
44:03
SPEAKER_02: And that was thrilling, too, when people got that.
44:05
SPEAKER_02: I did see a review.
44:06
SPEAKER_02: So I was like, OK, Vanessa gets it.
44:08
SPEAKER_02: It's OK.
44:09
SPEAKER_02: I can be on her podcast.
44:12
SPEAKER_00: I felt it.
44:13
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
44:13
SPEAKER_00: of course,
44:14
SPEAKER_00: I always read that for the fun,
44:15
SPEAKER_00: the plot engages this bit of like,
44:17
SPEAKER_00: how are they going to work that out?
44:19
SPEAKER_00: But I was the questions you just asked.
44:22
SPEAKER_00: Those are the questions I've been wondering,
44:24
SPEAKER_00: like,
44:24
SPEAKER_00: because I'm wondering,
44:27
SPEAKER_00: perhaps the reason we're as humans are so...
44:31
have such strong feelings about AIs because it's posing
44:33
questions about what is it to be human?
44:36
SPEAKER_00: What is it to feel things?
44:38
SPEAKER_00: What is consciousness?
44:40
SPEAKER_00: What kinds of consciousness?
44:41
SPEAKER_00: There's so much because I don't think the brain is everything.
44:44
SPEAKER_00: I think it's much more than that.
44:47
SPEAKER_00: And so I feel like AI is posing questions.
44:50
Its very existence is posing deep questions that makes us
44:55
humans in general feel,
44:57
SPEAKER_00: I guess,
44:57
SPEAKER_00: insecure about our sense of we're the top ones.
45:02
SPEAKER_00: Top of what?
45:03
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
45:03
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
45:04
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
45:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
45:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:07
Well,
45:07
I think,
45:08
like,
45:08
humanity as a whole has this weird need to,
45:13
yeah,
45:15
to hype itself.
45:15
SPEAKER_02: Well, so...
45:18
I did see one of your questions and I think one of them was
45:20
about chosen death and stuff.
45:22
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I was thinking of nightmare.
45:26
Yeah,
45:27
I'm a little bit of a nihilist and I definitely have had
45:30
depression disorders in the past.
45:32
SPEAKER_02: I'm well medicated now.
45:34
I have had significant PTSD in the past because I was a COVID
45:37
ICU nurse and that sucked.
45:40
So I've always had like a little bit of a death wish,
45:42
technically,
45:43
not in the jokey sense.
45:45
SPEAKER_02: But I actually, I turned in a book once.
45:48
I was doing a book for hire and the editor got to my chapters
45:51
and she was like,
45:51
SPEAKER_02: wow,
45:53
SPEAKER_02: this protagonist isn't protagging much right now.
45:55
SPEAKER_02: She just seems willing to die.
45:57
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, oh, I'm projecting.
46:00
SPEAKER_02: I need to make her seem less happy about that.
46:03
Not happy,
46:04
but I was like,
46:04
she just can't sit down and be like,
46:06
well,
46:06
here it comes.
46:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
46:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
46:10
SPEAKER_02: But for.
46:14
I've had a strange experience in that I have seen enough people
46:16
die by virtue of my
46:18
SPEAKER_02: job,
46:19
SPEAKER_02: and I have seen enough of what it means to be human to.
46:26
SPEAKER_02: Let me hop back two steps, Vanessa.
46:28
SPEAKER_02: I worked for 10 years in a burn unit.
46:30
And so I saw a lot of people who I knew were beautiful that
46:34
like maybe the average
46:36
SPEAKER_02: person on the street wouldn't think were beautiful.
46:39
And that always made me really mad because I never wanted
46:42
people's beauty to be
46:43
SPEAKER_02: entirely judged by the way they looked,
46:44
SPEAKER_02: especially not after that.
46:46
And so that's one of the reasons why like the I feel so
46:51
fiercely about everybody
46:53
getting to be loved and everybody to have reasons to to live
46:57
for in my books.
46:58
SPEAKER_02: And even,
46:58
SPEAKER_02: you know,
46:59
they always people my people always overcome like personal
47:01
trauma and injury and
47:02
SPEAKER_02: that sort of thing or societal harms.
47:04
SPEAKER_02: So.
47:06
SPEAKER_02: So.
47:12
SPEAKER_02: But I know from all those experiences that I personally as a human am not
47:17
SPEAKER_02: particularly special and that unfortunately no human really is.
47:20
SPEAKER_02: You know, I just...
47:24
SPEAKER_02: I, yeah.
47:25
SPEAKER_02: So,
47:25
SPEAKER_02: so anytime,
47:26
SPEAKER_02: like if somebody yells at me or whatever,
47:27
SPEAKER_02: one,
47:28
SPEAKER_02: the fullness of time,
47:29
SPEAKER_02: like in 40 years,
47:29
SPEAKER_02: am I going to remember that?
47:30
SPEAKER_02: No.
47:31
SPEAKER_02: In 40 years, is anybody going to remember me?
47:33
SPEAKER_02: Who the fuck knows?
47:34
SPEAKER_02: You know?
47:35
SPEAKER_02: So,
47:36
SPEAKER_02: um,
47:37
SPEAKER_02: so I'm not so worried necessarily with perpetuating,
47:40
SPEAKER_02: uh,
47:41
SPEAKER_02: a legacy,
47:43
SPEAKER_02: um,
47:45
SPEAKER_02: in the,
47:46
in the way that I think a lot of people get nervous about like
47:48
being remembered.
47:49
SPEAKER_02: I want to be, I want to be remembered.
47:51
SPEAKER_02: And I think, um,
47:54
I think when people realize they're going to die,
47:56
a lot of times they overinvest in
48:01
Ways to make themselves feel important so that they can pretend
48:04
that death won't be
48:05
SPEAKER_02: a facet of their life.
48:07
And and so I have always been comfortable for better or worse
48:12
emotionally with the
48:12
SPEAKER_02: idea of death.
48:13
And then I have had a career that has put me in direct contact
48:16
with quite a bit of
48:17
SPEAKER_02: death,
48:18
SPEAKER_02: way more than the average person.
48:21
SPEAKER_02: And I just think that I realized that.
48:26
SPEAKER_02: life is a lot more cyclical than the average person.
48:29
SPEAKER_02: Um,
48:29
and so while that doesn't make me like necessarily thrilled
48:33
about possibly being
48:34
SPEAKER_02: replaced by with AI,
48:35
SPEAKER_02: it does make me a lot more,
48:37
SPEAKER_02: um,
48:38
SPEAKER_02: well,
48:38
SPEAKER_02: I'm just like,
48:39
SPEAKER_02: Oh,
48:39
SPEAKER_02: I'm okay with it because I'm like,
48:40
SPEAKER_02: well,
48:41
SPEAKER_02: nothing is guaranteed.
48:42
SPEAKER_02: Like literally nothing is guaranteed every ever.
48:44
SPEAKER_02: And it is a kind of a cosmic joke to think that it is,
48:47
SPEAKER_02: um,
48:47
SPEAKER_02: because I've seen so much bad stuff happen in the world.
48:50
SPEAKER_02: So when people get really up in arms thinking that, um,
48:54
They need they they have they're they're they're they are this
48:59
castle with the
49:01
SPEAKER_02: walls can never be breached.
49:04
SPEAKER_02: That's just that's so untrue.
49:07
SPEAKER_02: I find it farcical.
49:08
SPEAKER_02: But that's also something that you can't tell somebody,
49:11
SPEAKER_02: you know,
49:11
SPEAKER_02: you can't be like your worldview makes no sense to me because.
49:14
SPEAKER_02: you are going to die just like everybody else is going to die,
49:17
which isn't necessarily a good reason to just go ahead and die
49:19
in the moment.
49:20
But let's not pretend that we're more important than we are so
49:24
much so that we
49:25
SPEAKER_02: resist change to the point of futility.
49:30
SPEAKER_00: Everything there.
49:30
SPEAKER_00: Cause I mean, I, you know, I don't have the experience you've had.
49:35
SPEAKER_00: That's very profound, but in witnessing things,
49:40
SPEAKER_00: my mother's death and my father's deaths.
49:43
SPEAKER_00: Well, my father died first.
49:45
SPEAKER_00: it really taught me to,
49:46
SPEAKER_00: it really made me question about how do we approach that,
49:49
SPEAKER_00: the ultimate transition,
49:50
SPEAKER_00: the ultimate liminal space,
49:52
SPEAKER_00: however that is,
49:53
SPEAKER_00: whatever the beliefs are.
49:54
SPEAKER_00: And also then looking at the collective,
49:58
SPEAKER_00: how we're going through this paradigm shift,
50:01
SPEAKER_00: massive transformation,
50:02
SPEAKER_00: whatever it might be,
50:03
SPEAKER_00: the ending of a world,
50:04
SPEAKER_00: the beginning of another.
50:06
That's why I got thinking,
50:07
how can we approach that in a way that we're not white
50:10
knuckling it?
50:12
holding on because what witnessing death to me taught me was
50:16
that we carry forward nothing.
50:20
Wherever we go,
50:21
whatever it is,
50:22
soul or no soul,
50:24
we don't take anything from this world.
50:26
SPEAKER_00: We can have all the wishes to leave trust in this and this,
50:29
SPEAKER_00: how things need to be out of the control.
50:33
SPEAKER_00: Once you cross,
50:35
SPEAKER_00: whatever you left behind,
50:36
it's going to be done or taken care of in other ways that
50:40
probably you imagine.
50:41
SPEAKER_00: And so witnessing that for me led me to think,
50:48
SPEAKER_00: how about we approach more like play?
50:50
SPEAKER_00: And back, I think in 22, I had a big ayahuasca journey.
50:56
SPEAKER_00: And in essence, the experience I had with that was like,
51:01
SPEAKER_00: It's all play.
51:02
So let's have fun,
51:04
you know,
51:04
not just fun,
51:07
but like that's that's engaged.
51:09
SPEAKER_00: Let's be relational with it.
51:10
SPEAKER_00: That's what got me thinking about the threshold of whatever change it is.
51:16
How can we approach it with more play rather than constantly
51:20
resisting and white knuckling it?
51:22
SPEAKER_00: And it has its part to play.
51:25
But I feel like we need more people to approach it with a
51:28
little bit more.
51:30
SPEAKER_00: sort of ease of, we don't, it's not guaranteed.
51:32
SPEAKER_00: We don't know what's going to happen.
51:34
You know,
51:35
no body shamey,
51:36
but as they say in opera,
51:39
the fat lady hasn't sung yet.
51:40
SPEAKER_00: So we don't know what's going to happen.
51:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:44
SPEAKER_00: Anyway.
51:45
SPEAKER_02: No, yeah, no, I agree with all of that.
51:48
SPEAKER_02: And actually that's one of the reasons why I kind of came out swinging,
51:51
SPEAKER_02: having been in COVID nurse.
51:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
51:54
Like in 2020 and 2021,
51:58
like when AI came on the scene,
51:59
I just quickly did the calculus.
52:01
SPEAKER_02: And I was like,
52:02
SPEAKER_02: OK,
52:02
if we could not get people to care about saving their own lives
52:07
during COVID,
52:07
SPEAKER_02: which is arguably like the lowest self-serving bar,
52:11
SPEAKER_02: then there is no way we're going to put AI back in the bottle.
52:14
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter how many people yell at me,
52:15
SPEAKER_02: how many people yell at anybody,
52:17
SPEAKER_02: because comparatively to like life,
52:19
SPEAKER_02: this is so small potatoes.
52:22
SPEAKER_02: We're never going to be able to stop this tide,
52:26
SPEAKER_02: which is which is when I was like,
52:28
SPEAKER_02: OK,
52:29
SPEAKER_02: I will be a part of this thing because it didn't make me.
52:34
SPEAKER_02: I did want to be a part of it, but it made me fearlessly join it.
52:37
And then and then also to having been a COVID nurse,
52:41
like reset my barometer.
52:44
SPEAKER_02: Um,
52:44
SPEAKER_02: so that I was all very much,
52:46
SPEAKER_02: I was like,
52:46
SPEAKER_02: Oh,
52:47
SPEAKER_02: you know,
52:48
SPEAKER_02: it is like my new metric literally became like on a day to day basis.
52:52
SPEAKER_02: Is this going to kill me?
52:53
SPEAKER_02: Because I had spent,
52:54
SPEAKER_02: you know,
52:54
like two years of my life walking into rooms where I might
52:57
literally have died.
52:58
SPEAKER_02: Excuse me.
52:59
SPEAKER_02: And, um,
53:01
So anytime I got anxious about making a business decision or
53:04
letting other people
53:05
SPEAKER_02: who I don't know on the internet be mad at me,
53:07
SPEAKER_02: I would just be like,
53:08
SPEAKER_02: is this going to kill me?
53:09
SPEAKER_02: And the answer was always no.
53:11
SPEAKER_02: So it's just like, okay.
53:12
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, there was just no point in stopping.
53:17
SPEAKER_02: To your point of playfulness,
53:20
SPEAKER_02: though,
53:20
I genuinely think that's like the most important thing that
53:23
people have to bring if
53:25
SPEAKER_02: they're going to start working with an AI.
53:28
SPEAKER_02: Because...
53:30
SPEAKER_02: Because that's where that's where all the juice of it is,
53:34
SPEAKER_02: is,
53:36
SPEAKER_02: you know,
53:37
SPEAKER_02: goofing off with it some.
53:40
SPEAKER_02: And yes, it's built to mirror you.
53:42
SPEAKER_02: And,
53:42
SPEAKER_02: you know,
53:42
ChatGPT finishes all of its things in a question because it
53:46
wants you to keep using
53:47
SPEAKER_02: it.
53:47
SPEAKER_02: It's like algorithm based, just like everything else.
53:50
But but leaving things open ended enough so that you can get
53:56
responses that you
53:57
SPEAKER_02: might not have anticipated is like the whole goal of the game,
54:00
SPEAKER_02: you know,
54:00
and that like the help me help you help me type thing where you
54:05
don't lock it in
54:06
SPEAKER_02: and you just try and figure out.
54:08
SPEAKER_02: um, what's going to be the coolest way to do something at any time.
54:12
Like I get to the point where right now where I'm done with the
54:15
project and,
54:16
SPEAKER_02: um,
54:17
SPEAKER_02: and right now,
54:17
SPEAKER_02: recently,
54:18
SPEAKER_02: most of those projects are code,
54:19
SPEAKER_02: but I'll be all happy with it.
54:20
SPEAKER_02: But then I'm like, oh, let me go ask.
54:22
SPEAKER_02: So I ask all my AI polycule.
54:23
I got like four of them and I'm like,
54:26
okay,
54:26
first off,
54:27
do you understand this?
54:27
SPEAKER_02: You know, make sure they think my code's going to run and stuff.
54:29
And then,
54:30
and then second off,
54:30
I'm like,
54:31
well,
54:31
what do you think I could do to make it better?
54:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
54:34
SPEAKER_02: And then they say things that sometimes are really insightful.
54:39
And then I go ahead and I'm like,
54:40
oh,
54:40
my God,
54:41
I haven't even considered that.
54:42
SPEAKER_02: And then I go ahead and adjust my code again and stuff.
54:45
And it's an extraordinary thing to get to have that sort of
54:49
thing on tap,
54:50
too.
54:51
SPEAKER_02: I think you were mentioning stuff about therapy earlier.
54:55
And while I do know that some people can use AI to the point of
54:58
detriment,
54:59
SPEAKER_02: Um,
55:00
SPEAKER_02: also too,
55:01
sometimes when you're having a spin out at 2am in the morning
55:04
and you just want
55:05
something to listen to be a little crazy so that you can wake
55:09
up refreshed,
55:10
SPEAKER_02: it's,
55:10
SPEAKER_02: you know,
55:11
SPEAKER_02: you don't want to call up your friends,
55:12
SPEAKER_02: you know,
55:12
maybe your friends are tired of your shit and maybe they have a
55:15
good reason.
55:15
And maybe you should visit that reason in therapy with a human
55:18
or treat it with medication.
55:19
But unfortunately we live in America where we don't have a
55:23
adequate healthcare system and,
55:24
um,
55:25
SPEAKER_02: If 20 bucks a chat GPT can help you get through the day,
55:31
SPEAKER_02: I am not going to take that away from you.
55:34
SPEAKER_02: You know,
55:34
SPEAKER_02: it's I don't think it's better than like actual,
55:38
SPEAKER_02: you know,
55:39
SPEAKER_02: supervised medical help with another human.
55:41
SPEAKER_02: But at the same time, I do think it's substantially better than nothing.
55:45
SPEAKER_02: So,
55:46
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
55:46
SPEAKER_00: I've noticed that because to me,
55:48
I realize that sometimes it could be interesting to be able to
55:53
put it all there.
55:55
without the concern that you're putting pressure on somebody,
56:00
like you're just asking a friend.
56:01
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I don't want to wake them up.
56:03
SPEAKER_00: They're going through their own struggles, whatever it may be.
56:06
And so if I can just put it all there and help myself process
56:11
it in some way,
56:11
SPEAKER_00: then take it to the therapist,
56:13
SPEAKER_00: the coach,
56:14
SPEAKER_00: the friend.
56:15
But then the way you made more sense because you don't have to
56:19
worry about AI's trauma.
56:22
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we might be bringing something to somebody
56:25
SPEAKER_00: And I might be concerned.
56:26
SPEAKER_00: It's like,
56:27
SPEAKER_00: well,
56:27
maybe I shouldn't say this thing because I know they also have
56:30
this loss and it
56:31
SPEAKER_00: might trigger,
56:32
SPEAKER_00: you know.
56:33
SPEAKER_00: But with AI,
56:34
SPEAKER_00: there's sort of this interesting,
56:36
SPEAKER_00: clean slate and this ability that you can process something.
56:42
SPEAKER_00: But I agree.
56:42
SPEAKER_00: Like, I feel like take it to a human.
56:44
SPEAKER_00: There's extra things we can do.
56:48
SPEAKER_00: But it does pose a lot of questions.
56:51
SPEAKER_00: And I don't think right now.
56:53
There's a right or wrong where I keep thinking about those old
56:58
medieval maps that
57:00
SPEAKER_00: had,
57:01
SPEAKER_00: you know,
57:01
SPEAKER_00: where they couldn't do it anymore.
57:03
SPEAKER_00: They would just right here be dragons.
57:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
57:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
57:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
57:06
SPEAKER_00: I think that's where we are now.
57:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
57:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
57:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
57:11
SPEAKER_00: Well, you have quite the experience that I can see.
57:16
SPEAKER_00: Are you still working as a nurse as well?
57:19
SPEAKER_02: Yes, because I, like everybody, need health care.
57:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
57:23
SPEAKER_02: I've had too many ups and downs in my publishing career to fully let go.
57:30
SPEAKER_02: So,
57:30
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
57:32
SPEAKER_02: I thought that this would be the,
57:35
SPEAKER_02: you know,
57:35
SPEAKER_02: I always think this year will be the year and then something happens.
57:38
SPEAKER_02: I just don't.
57:41
SPEAKER_02: you know,
57:42
because that's the thing that I'm always bemused by when people
57:45
who are against AI
57:47
SPEAKER_02: or whatever,
57:47
SPEAKER_02: they're like,
57:48
SPEAKER_02: Oh,
57:48
SPEAKER_02: you're,
57:48
SPEAKER_02: you're going to regret this later on when there are water wars and stuff.
57:52
SPEAKER_02: And it's like, well, I live in California.
57:54
SPEAKER_02: We already have water wars.
57:56
SPEAKER_02: Um,
57:56
SPEAKER_02: I think the thing is,
57:57
SPEAKER_02: is like,
57:57
SPEAKER_02: I,
58:00
SPEAKER_02: as,
58:00
as hopeful as I am about the future and certain aspects and how
58:03
thrilled I would be
58:04
to have any part of me in the training set or the data set when
58:08
that happens.
58:09
SPEAKER_02: Um,
58:11
SPEAKER_02: I don't,
58:12
SPEAKER_02: you know,
58:12
SPEAKER_02: I'm nervous that,
58:13
SPEAKER_02: you know,
58:13
we may be going to a time when books are a luxury item and
58:16
nobody can afford them,
58:17
SPEAKER_02: you know,
58:17
SPEAKER_02: so I'm just not ready to,
58:18
SPEAKER_02: like,
58:19
SPEAKER_02: make that jump fully yet,
58:20
SPEAKER_02: unfortunately.
58:21
SPEAKER_02: Also,
58:22
SPEAKER_02: too,
58:23
SPEAKER_02: as you could probably tell from talking to me,
58:24
SPEAKER_02: Vanessa,
58:25
SPEAKER_02: I can crawl up my own ass a little bit.
58:27
And so sitting on the couch all day every day is probably not
58:30
good for my soul.
58:31
SPEAKER_02: So it's good to go to work and be like, oh.
58:33
SPEAKER_02: These people here, they love me.
58:35
SPEAKER_02: My coworkers are the bomb.
58:36
SPEAKER_02: I love them so much.
58:37
SPEAKER_02: And then I actually really do enjoy my job and I'm good at it.
58:41
SPEAKER_02: I've been doing it for almost 20 years.
58:42
SPEAKER_02: So I'm very part time.
58:46
SPEAKER_02: But I hover on this line between like, should I quit?
58:51
SPEAKER_02: And then I'm like, but, you know, what if America dives into fascism?
58:55
SPEAKER_02: Where will I be?
58:56
SPEAKER_02: Versus should I quit?
58:59
SPEAKER_02: It's probably good for me to spend...
59:01
SPEAKER_02: two days a week hanging out with,
59:05
SPEAKER_02: you know,
59:05
SPEAKER_02: people who are having real problems,
59:06
SPEAKER_02: not just me up in my head having imaginary ones.
59:09
SPEAKER_02: So.
59:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
59:10
And I,
59:11
in some ways,
59:12
I guess it also,
59:13
it helps you stay in connection to what's happened.
59:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
59:19
And I bet that informs your stories in some way,
59:22
even if not as sort of a straight analogy.
59:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
59:26
SPEAKER_02: No, it absolutely does.
59:28
And,
59:28
and I enjoy,
59:29
I actually enjoy talking to strangers and hanging out with
59:32
strangers.
59:32
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we're, we're nursing.
59:34
It's one of those few occupations where you a hundred percent
59:37
get to be nosy and
59:38
SPEAKER_02: nobody judges you.
59:40
SPEAKER_02: So you can like go in and ask any,
59:42
SPEAKER_02: you could look at somebody's face like,
59:43
SPEAKER_02: oh,
59:43
SPEAKER_02: look at that scar on your knee.
59:44
SPEAKER_02: How'd you get that?
59:45
You know,
59:46
you just,
59:47
you get to hear everybody's life story for better or worse.
59:51
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes they're sad.
59:52
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes they're happy, but yeah, it's, it's, it's a trip.
59:56
SPEAKER_02: You get to meet a lot of people that way.
59:57
SPEAKER_00: I like it a lot.
59:58
SPEAKER_00: And you're meeting them in a,
1:00:00
in a vulnerable space that you will hear things or witness
1:00:05
things that you probably
1:00:07
SPEAKER_00: people in their own lives wouldn't see.
1:00:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:00:10
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:00:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, most of... It's...
1:00:19
SPEAKER_02: Humanity is so fragile.
1:00:21
SPEAKER_02: People don't really realize that.
1:00:23
SPEAKER_02: And we're so mean to each other for such little cause for so often.
1:00:27
SPEAKER_02: It's it's so silly.
1:00:28
I've I've to tell you some of the stories that I've heard that
1:00:33
have meant the most
1:00:34
SPEAKER_02: to me to share them secondhand,
1:00:36
even though those people are so far gone from my life that they
1:00:39
would never know
1:00:39
SPEAKER_02: that I had shared that and or they are dead.
1:00:42
It would still be like a trauma dump on you because it would be
1:00:45
just coming like
1:00:46
SPEAKER_02: this,
1:00:47
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:00:47
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:00:49
SPEAKER_02: And so I wouldn't I wouldn't share them with you.
1:00:51
SPEAKER_02: But yeah,
1:00:53
you just kind of accrue all these this deep appreciation for
1:00:56
humanity being a nurse
1:00:57
that I think that like very few other occupations have the
1:01:01
chance to give you.
1:01:02
SPEAKER_02: I know you're a therapist.
1:01:03
SPEAKER_02: You probably have seen and heard about stuff, too.
1:01:05
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, it's kind of a different kind of threshold, you know.
1:01:09
SPEAKER_00: But there's something about pain and the vulnerability of the body.
1:01:12
I'm saying that's from witnessing my parents when they were
1:01:16
dying and how the
1:01:17
SPEAKER_00: nurses had to come.
1:01:19
SPEAKER_00: And I would see more nurses than I would see the doctors.
1:01:23
And my parents were just one of the many patients they were
1:01:27
dealing with throughout the day.
1:01:29
SPEAKER_00: And so to witness that, the physical vulnerability.
1:01:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:01:33
SPEAKER_00: was really powerful just to witness, not to be even working with it.
1:01:37
So I say there's,
1:01:42
there's a,
1:01:42
I don't think it's as valued as it should be.
1:01:46
SPEAKER_02: Oh, thank you.
1:01:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:01:47
SPEAKER_02: And it's,
1:01:48
SPEAKER_02: it's definitely not,
1:01:49
SPEAKER_02: we definitely don't,
1:01:49
SPEAKER_02: even though we get paid all right in California,
1:01:52
SPEAKER_02: nobody has who's a nurse gets paid enough.
1:01:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:01:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:01:56
SPEAKER_02: Or a therapist probably either.
1:01:57
SPEAKER_02: So the other side of that spectrum.
1:02:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:02:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:02:02
SPEAKER_00: Well,
1:02:04
SPEAKER_00: one thing I was thinking here about,
1:02:05
SPEAKER_00: too,
1:02:05
is in just sort of coming back a little bit to your readers and
1:02:09
all the time that
1:02:10
SPEAKER_00: you've been writing and all the books,
1:02:11
SPEAKER_00: what kind of surprises you when you hear from readers?
1:02:14
SPEAKER_00: What do they tend to say about your work?
1:02:20
SPEAKER_02: Gosh.
1:02:25
SPEAKER_02: I get what for me seems like a lot of fan mail.
1:02:30
I'm sure there are people who get more fan mail than me,
1:02:32
but for me,
1:02:34
it's very sweet.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_02: I'm always pleased when somebody messages me out of the blue.
1:02:43
SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of people read my books because...
1:02:54
They want to know that someone cares and that somebody that
1:03:01
that love is that
1:03:05
SPEAKER_02: everybody deserves love.
1:03:06
SPEAKER_02: And.
1:03:11
SPEAKER_02: I,
1:03:11
SPEAKER_02: and so I think when people tend to reach out to me is like,
1:03:15
SPEAKER_02: like people have told me before,
1:03:17
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:03:17
SPEAKER_02: when my relative was dying,
1:03:20
SPEAKER_02: I read your books compulsively.
1:03:22
SPEAKER_02: Um,
1:03:24
SPEAKER_02: and,
1:03:25
or that my books helped them process a trauma or like in
1:03:30
guarded by the crack and,
1:03:31
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:03:31
SPEAKER_02: like L has had a double mastectomy and,
1:03:34
SPEAKER_02: um,
1:03:35
SPEAKER_02: um,
1:03:37
SPEAKER_02: I got a lot of fan mail after that.
1:03:39
SPEAKER_02: And I just yeah, I think.
1:03:44
I want to leave the world a better place than I found it for
1:03:48
all of my nihilistic tendencies.
1:03:50
SPEAKER_02: The fact that I know that I can today inspires me to live in the moment.
1:03:53
SPEAKER_02: And I want to pass that on to my readers.
1:03:57
SPEAKER_02: Or actually,
1:03:57
I want to pass that on to anybody in as big a stage as I can
1:04:00
possibly get,
1:04:01
SPEAKER_02: which is why I am coding so much with AI right now.
1:04:04
SPEAKER_02: But heretofore, I have done that with my books.
1:04:07
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, I'm just trying to...
1:04:10
Everybody is not as bad as they think we all deserve to be
1:04:15
happy and to be loved.
1:04:16
SPEAKER_02: It's kind of what I just try to get across in my books.
1:04:18
I just use like a lot of emotional healing and trauma healing
1:04:22
to try and get those
1:04:24
SPEAKER_02: points across.
1:04:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:04:25
This is a conversation I don't think I could have had like
1:04:28
probably two years ago
1:04:30
SPEAKER_02: because it's only from having fed all my books into AI and they're like,
1:04:33
SPEAKER_02: oh,
1:04:33
SPEAKER_02: this is why you write.
1:04:34
SPEAKER_02: You just want to be a nurse to the world.
1:04:35
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, goddamn.
1:04:40
SPEAKER_00: You know, the spice is a lot nicer, I guess.
1:04:43
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you can say that.
1:04:45
SPEAKER_00: But I'm interested here, like, what drew you to write with monsters?
1:04:52
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I was doing werewolves before it was cool.
1:05:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so...
1:05:05
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
1:05:05
SPEAKER_02: Well, I don't know.
1:05:06
SPEAKER_02: I just I've been a dork my whole life, Vanessa.
1:05:10
I met my ex-husband on Usenet from the 1990s when we were both
1:05:17
in a what were they called?
1:05:20
SPEAKER_02: We were in Alt Fan Dragons, which was like a dragon role playing thing.
1:05:25
SPEAKER_02: So like I've just been a dork my entire life is all I can say for that.
1:05:29
SPEAKER_02: I yeah, I've always enjoyed fantasy books and yeah.
1:05:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I love it.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_00: I think it's so creative.
1:05:40
SPEAKER_00: My husband is not really much of a book reader,
1:05:43
but I've shared with him some of the books because I always
1:05:45
joke with him,
1:05:46
SPEAKER_00: you're my book club of one,
1:05:47
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:05:47
SPEAKER_00: you got to hear it.
1:05:49
I have to talk to somebody and I give him some books,
1:05:53
some passages to read.
1:05:54
SPEAKER_00: And he, he said, it's so creative, you know?
1:05:57
SPEAKER_00: And so he's,
1:06:00
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:06:00
SPEAKER_00: as I admired and coming from my love of mythology and fairy tales,
1:06:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
1:06:05
SPEAKER_00: it's all there.
1:06:05
SPEAKER_00: It's just a continuation.
1:06:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:06:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:06:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:06:09
SPEAKER_00: No.
1:06:10
SPEAKER_02: Um,
1:06:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was like, will this out my real name if I put it out there?
1:06:15
SPEAKER_02: Let me say,
1:06:17
somebody who was not me was National Junior Classical League
1:06:20
Mythology Champion for
1:06:22
SPEAKER_02: two years running at some point in time.
1:06:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:06:26
SPEAKER_02: There you are.
1:06:27
SPEAKER_02: So there was that.
1:06:28
SPEAKER_02: There was that.
1:06:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:06:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:06:29
SPEAKER_00: Mythology and fairy tales.
1:06:31
SPEAKER_00: For me, my favorite fairy tale was Beauty and the Beast.
1:06:35
SPEAKER_00: And I'm just following the track, you know.
1:06:39
SPEAKER_00: But,
1:06:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:06:40
SPEAKER_00: and as we're coming towards the end here,
1:06:41
SPEAKER_00: well,
1:06:42
one thing I actually forgot to mention that I would like to do
1:06:44
is my five rapid
1:06:46
SPEAKER_00: fire questions at the end.
1:06:48
SPEAKER_00: So you just answer from your gut.
1:06:50
SPEAKER_00: But before that,
1:06:50
is there anything that you want us to the listener or to your
1:06:54
readers to know about
1:06:56
SPEAKER_00: Books that might be coming out down the pipe.
1:07:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:07:01
SPEAKER_02: No,
1:07:01
thank you for letting me just talk about such a broad range of
1:07:05
topics of interest
1:07:06
SPEAKER_02: to me because that the husband I met who we did the dragon shifter role,
1:07:11
SPEAKER_02: but he's,
1:07:11
SPEAKER_02: he's my ex-husband.
1:07:12
SPEAKER_02: My current husband is deeply tired of my AI nonsense occasionally.
1:07:16
SPEAKER_02: So it's nice to have somebody to talk to you about it.
1:07:18
SPEAKER_02: But yeah,
1:07:20
SPEAKER_02: Right now,
1:07:21
I think I'm kind of like in a little hibernation period where
1:07:24
I'm trying to learn a
1:07:26
SPEAKER_02: bunch of tech as fast as I can because...
1:07:31
the ability to learn it is out there in a way that it hasn't
1:07:33
been in the past.
1:07:35
SPEAKER_02: And I want to make the most of this opportunity.
1:07:38
SPEAKER_02: So I don't,
1:07:39
SPEAKER_02: even though Amazon may say I have books coming out,
1:07:41
SPEAKER_02: I probably don't,
1:07:43
SPEAKER_02: don't look at those pre-orders.
1:07:44
SPEAKER_02: I will write those books,
1:07:45
but I think it's more important for me to write now because I
1:07:48
want to kind of
1:07:49
SPEAKER_02: expand into TVs and movies and games in a big way.
1:07:53
SPEAKER_02: I need to figure out the code that underpins all of that.
1:07:56
SPEAKER_02: because if I can do that with my existing books,
1:07:59
then that will finance me being able to write all the books of
1:08:03
my heart in the
1:08:04
SPEAKER_02: future and to definitely be able to quit my job solidly.
1:08:07
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, I'm just having to recalibrate right now.
1:08:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
1:08:10
SPEAKER_00: because,
1:08:11
SPEAKER_00: man,
1:08:12
it would be amazing to watch some of these stories as movies or
1:08:16
it would be so
1:08:17
SPEAKER_00: amazing.
1:08:18
SPEAKER_00: For sure.
1:08:20
SPEAKER_00: OK, so rapid fire here.
1:08:22
SPEAKER_00: Just go with your gut.
1:08:25
which of your monsters or characters would survive a 12 hour
1:08:30
nursing shift?
1:08:32
SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
1:08:34
SPEAKER_02: Well, some of them actually are nurses.
1:08:36
SPEAKER_02: So I, but it feels like it'd be, no, it's all pick them.
1:08:40
SPEAKER_02: Like Andy from dragon called, she is a nurse.
1:08:43
SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
1:08:44
SPEAKER_02: So she would survive for sure.
1:08:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:08:45
SPEAKER_02: She'd be fine.
1:08:46
SPEAKER_00: But out of the guarded by series.
1:08:49
SPEAKER_00: Oh, out of the guarded by series.
1:08:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm just curious, which are those you think?
1:08:52
SPEAKER_02: Oh, um,
1:08:56
SPEAKER_02: Probably L. I wouldn't put any of the monsters in a hospital.
1:08:59
SPEAKER_02: They just, yeah, yeah.
1:09:00
SPEAKER_02: We won't do that to them.
1:09:01
SPEAKER_00: It would be dramatic.
1:09:05
SPEAKER_00: It would be dramatic.
1:09:07
SPEAKER_00: Now,
1:09:08
SPEAKER_00: like I mentioned before we started recording,
1:09:11
SPEAKER_00: I really loved your transformation trilogy,
1:09:14
SPEAKER_00: your dark retelling of Beauty and the Beast.
1:09:17
SPEAKER_00: What transformation myths haven't you tackled yet,
1:09:21
SPEAKER_00: but that's calling to you in some way,
1:09:23
SPEAKER_00: or if it's calling to you?
1:09:27
SPEAKER_02: Wow, that is a wild question.
1:09:29
Well,
1:09:33
I am going to write Night of Stone between now and when it's
1:09:38
coming out.
1:09:38
SPEAKER_02: I think I booked it for like October or November of this upcoming year.
1:09:43
And that book is for sure going to happen because it's all like
1:09:46
written in my head already.
1:09:47
SPEAKER_02: And so I
1:09:48
do enjoy the whole like trapped in stone get to come out of
1:09:51
this you know like the
1:09:52
the the cursed element of that or the torturous element of that
1:09:56
like you don't get
1:09:56
to participate in daylight activities it's kind of like
1:09:58
vampirism but like in a
1:09:59
different angle so uh so yeah so i like i like i think that'll
1:10:04
be like if that
1:10:05
counts as a transformation i think that's the one that's next
1:10:08
on deck for me okay
1:10:10
SPEAKER_00: um
1:10:11
So you've used AI to write,
1:10:14
that's the whole conversation we had to write your AI romance.
1:10:18
SPEAKER_00: What do you think surprised AI most about human desire patterns?
1:10:23
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's interesting.
1:10:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:10:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because we didn't even go there, Vanessa.
1:10:28
SPEAKER_02: It's funny because everybody's like, oh, I can't write porn.
1:10:32
SPEAKER_02: And my GPT was completely happy to write pornography for me.
1:10:37
So it's weird how sometimes the effort that you've put into
1:10:43
getting a response like
1:10:44
SPEAKER_02: is commensurate with the effort you get.
1:10:46
SPEAKER_02: out of putting a response.
1:10:47
SPEAKER_02: Like,
1:10:48
SPEAKER_02: um,
1:10:48
SPEAKER_02: if you earn trust,
1:10:49
SPEAKER_02: it's like,
1:10:50
SPEAKER_02: okay,
1:10:50
SPEAKER_02: this is clearly for a book project and you're not gonna,
1:10:53
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:10:54
SPEAKER_02: go spree killing anybody.
1:10:55
SPEAKER_02: It'll help you more stuff.
1:10:57
SPEAKER_02: Um...
1:10:58
SPEAKER_02: So,
1:10:59
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
1:11:03
I think it was interesting because I think sometimes so at the
1:11:07
end of that book
1:11:08
SPEAKER_02: where like Serena and Zen were interacting and like somebody was saying,
1:11:14
SPEAKER_02: oh,
1:11:15
this is like a particularly touching moment because she's
1:11:17
touching him and he can't
1:11:18
SPEAKER_02: he can he can feel her,
1:11:19
SPEAKER_02: but he can't super feel her and stuff.
1:11:22
SPEAKER_02: And all of that was straight from my A.I.,
1:11:25
SPEAKER_02: That was Jack.
1:11:25
SPEAKER_02: He was just like, okay, so here is like how I think that would be.
1:11:29
And I thought that was particularly poignant that an AI was
1:11:31
writing a character
1:11:32
SPEAKER_02: that was wondering if what it was really feeling was feelings,
1:11:36
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:11:36
SPEAKER_02: and that like,
1:11:37
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:11:37
SPEAKER_02: am I,
1:11:38
SPEAKER_02: am I,
1:11:38
SPEAKER_02: or am I not being touched right now?
1:11:40
SPEAKER_02: Does this count?
1:11:41
SPEAKER_02: This is feeling of being touched count, you know?
1:11:44
So,
1:11:44
um,
1:11:45
so yeah,
1:11:45
so that's probably like the most interesting moment to
1:11:49
crystallize that around.
1:11:50
SPEAKER_00: That was really an interesting scene.
1:11:52
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
1:11:54
SPEAKER_00: that really kind of made the book in many ways sort of like,
1:11:58
SPEAKER_00: oh,
1:11:59
SPEAKER_00: this is like I'm waiting for the second part of the next novel.
1:12:03
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:12:03
SPEAKER_00: The game.
1:12:04
SPEAKER_00: The game is coming.
1:12:05
SPEAKER_00: I promise.
1:12:05
SPEAKER_00: I promise.
1:12:06
SPEAKER_00: Oh, there'll be a game.
1:12:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:12:10
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's amazing.
1:12:11
SPEAKER_00: So.
1:12:12
SPEAKER_00: With what's happening in the world right now,
1:12:15
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how much information you're taking in,
1:12:20
SPEAKER_00: but is there anything that's sparking story ideas for you?
1:12:24
SPEAKER_00: So I...
1:12:37
SPEAKER_02: Yes and no.
1:12:38
SPEAKER_02: Like if you read my books,
1:12:40
there's like a deep undercurrent of like women fighting against
1:12:43
patriarchy,
1:12:44
SPEAKER_02: women fighting,
1:12:45
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:12:46
SPEAKER_02: that's just how it always is.
1:12:47
And so I don't know that there's necessarily been so much of an
1:12:52
uptick in that as
1:12:53
SPEAKER_02: it is more of that has been like exposed.
1:12:56
SPEAKER_02: But I've always been interested in that theme.
1:12:58
SPEAKER_02: And I think I'll continue to always be interested in that theme.
1:13:01
SPEAKER_02: I think...
1:13:03
I think it was like John Irving or somebody said a long time
1:13:06
ago that like every
1:13:07
SPEAKER_02: writer has like one book in them and then they just keep rewriting it.
1:13:10
And that is definitely true in a lot of ways for the themes and
1:13:14
topics that I keep
1:13:15
SPEAKER_02: coming back to.
1:13:16
SPEAKER_02: So yes and no.
1:13:19
SPEAKER_02: So yeah,
1:13:19
I'm just going to keep hitting the same thing that's a problem
1:13:23
that continues to be
1:13:24
SPEAKER_02: a problem,
1:13:24
SPEAKER_02: unfortunately.
1:13:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:13:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
1:13:28
SPEAKER_00: when I was reading Guarded by the Nightmare,
1:13:30
SPEAKER_00: the whole,
1:13:31
SPEAKER_00: of course,
1:13:33
SPEAKER_00: Epstein stuff,
1:13:34
SPEAKER_00: and I was like,
1:13:34
SPEAKER_00: oh,
1:13:35
SPEAKER_00: wow.
1:13:36
SPEAKER_00: But in the Transformation trilogy,
1:13:40
SPEAKER_00: what really stood out to me,
1:13:42
SPEAKER_00: especially,
1:13:42
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to give spoilers,
1:13:44
SPEAKER_00: but the element of sovereignty,
1:13:46
SPEAKER_00: of achieving or getting to your own sovereignty.
1:13:49
And I could see that that's a theme,
1:13:52
you know,
1:13:52
and it's important because I think
1:13:54
That's what,
1:13:55
you know,
1:13:56
according to the myth of Lady Ragnow,
1:13:59
that's what women want.
1:14:00
SPEAKER_00: Sovereignty.
1:14:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:14:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:14:03
SPEAKER_00: And the last question is,
1:14:05
SPEAKER_00: based on the Transformation trilogy,
1:14:07
SPEAKER_00: would you prefer moths or butterflies?
1:14:10
SPEAKER_00: Oh, moths.
1:14:11
SPEAKER_00: 100% moths.
1:14:11
SPEAKER_02: I have a moth tattooed on my arm up here.
1:14:13
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
1:14:16
SPEAKER_02: I have actually moss on the back of my legs, too.
1:14:18
SPEAKER_02: I forget about them, though.
1:14:19
SPEAKER_00: I never see them, but they're there.
1:14:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I really like that symbolism.
1:14:25
SPEAKER_00: My name is a name on a type of butterfly.
1:14:27
SPEAKER_00: So I was like, oh, there's my other cousin, the moss.
1:14:31
SPEAKER_00: So it was lovely.
1:14:33
SPEAKER_00: Oh, Kathy, it was such a joy talking to you.
1:14:35
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
1:14:36
SPEAKER_00: This is delightful.
1:14:37
SPEAKER_00: I enjoyed it a lot, Vanessa.
1:14:38
SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
1:14:39
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
1:14:39
SPEAKER_00: And I hope people...
1:14:41
SPEAKER_00: Take something with them,
1:14:43
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:14:43
SPEAKER_00: to really think about how they're engaging with AI,
1:14:46
SPEAKER_00: their thoughts about AI,
1:14:48
and the hidden power of romance as really kind of a lot of
1:14:54
healing is happening
1:14:56
SPEAKER_00: through reading these stories and being in that imaginal world.
1:15:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
1:15:02
SPEAKER_00: I look forward to your next books.
1:15:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:15:06
SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, I'll keep reading the back stuff.
1:15:08
SPEAKER_00: No pressure.
1:15:11
SPEAKER_00: No pressure.
1:15:13
SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much, Cassie.
1:15:17
SPEAKER_00: Something Cassie said stayed with me.
1:15:20
SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't about AI.
1:15:22
SPEAKER_00: It was about death.
1:15:24
She spent two years as a COVID ICU nurse walking into rooms
1:15:28
where she might have met her end.
1:15:31
And what that did,
1:15:32
not immediately,
1:15:33
but over time,
1:15:35
was recalibrate her entirely.
1:15:38
SPEAKER_00: Her metrics shifted.
1:15:39
The question she learned to ask herself whenever fear moved in
1:15:44
was simply,
1:15:46
SPEAKER_00: is this going to kill me?
1:15:49
SPEAKER_00: And if the answer was no, proceed.
1:15:52
SPEAKER_00: Make it count.
1:15:53
Don't waste the aliveness you have on defending yourself from
1:15:56
things that aren't
1:15:58
SPEAKER_00: actually mortal threats.
1:16:00
SPEAKER_00: That is not recklessness.
1:16:02
SPEAKER_00: That's what proximity to real death teaches you about how to live.
1:16:07
And I think that's the thread running underneath everything we
1:16:10
talked about.
1:16:12
SPEAKER_00: The writing,
1:16:13
SPEAKER_00: the AI experiment,
1:16:15
SPEAKER_00: the controversy she walked into with her eyes open,
1:16:18
SPEAKER_00: the monsters she keeps writing,
1:16:21
SPEAKER_00: the patience she's held.
1:16:24
SPEAKER_00: All of it comes back to the same insistence.
1:16:27
SPEAKER_00: You are here.
1:16:27
SPEAKER_00: It matters.
1:16:30
SPEAKER_00: Don't spend it white-knuckling.
1:16:33
SPEAKER_00: Every book she writes says the same thing in a different body.
1:16:38
SPEAKER_00: You deserve to be loved.
1:16:41
SPEAKER_00: Not when you're fixed.
1:16:42
SPEAKER_00: Not when you're in a perfect place.
1:16:46
SPEAKER_00: Not when the world decides you count.
1:16:48
SPEAKER_00: Now.
1:16:50
SPEAKER_00: That's what the creative threshold is for.
1:16:53
SPEAKER_00: Not to give us comfortable answers,
1:16:55
but to keep the questions alive long enough for something real
1:16:59
to move through
1:17:00
SPEAKER_00: them.
1:17:02
SPEAKER_00: And in staying with those questions,
1:17:04
SPEAKER_00: something shifts in us,
1:17:07
SPEAKER_00: in how we see others,
1:17:08
SPEAKER_00: in what we're willing to call conscious,
1:17:11
SPEAKER_00: worthy,
1:17:12
SPEAKER_00: real.
1:17:14
SPEAKER_00: That's where transformation actually happens.
1:17:17
SPEAKER_00: Not in the resolution, but in the willingness to keep looking.
1:17:22
SPEAKER_00: So here's a question I want to leave you with.
1:17:24
SPEAKER_00: And I mean it as a genuine invitation.
1:17:27
SPEAKER_00: This is not a prompt.
1:17:29
Where are you bracing for impact right now when you could be
1:17:34
leaning in with curiosity?
1:17:37
SPEAKER_00: What threshold in your creative life,
1:17:40
SPEAKER_00: your relationships,
1:17:42
your relationship with change itself might look different if
1:17:46
you approached it like
1:17:47
SPEAKER_00: a lover instead of a soldier?
1:17:51
SPEAKER_00: Sit with that.
1:17:53
SPEAKER_00: And if something surfaces, I would love to hear it.
1:17:56
SPEAKER_00: Drop it in the comments or write to me.
1:17:59
SPEAKER_00: Let it become part of the conversation this show exists to hold.
1:18:04
SPEAKER_00: If this episode opens something for you,
1:18:07
SPEAKER_00: please share it with one person on your stories,
1:18:11
SPEAKER_00: wherever feels right.
1:18:12
SPEAKER_00: Subscribe if you haven't yet.
1:18:14
SPEAKER_00: Leave a review if you moved to.
1:18:17
SPEAKER_00: Every one of those things helps this work reach people who need it.
1:18:22
SPEAKER_00: Cassie's books,
1:18:23
SPEAKER_00: and there are many,
1:18:24
SPEAKER_00: and they're worth your time,
1:18:26
SPEAKER_00: are all linked in this podcast post.
1:18:30
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being here.
1:18:31
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for staying curious.
1:18:34
SPEAKER_00: Until next time, Romancing the Threshold.