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You'll be Great by Force · Death Before Decay

• Speaker 2: All right, welcome to the Death Before Decay podcast. Today I'm here with my friend Dr. Justina Anibo. How are ya? Good. Thank you for coming. Speaker 1: Very good. Thank you guys so much for having me. Such a beautiful office. Like when I walked in, I was immediately impressed. So I'm very excited to be Speaker 2: I appreciate it. Speaker 1: part of this little group. It's so pretty. Speaker 2: Thank you. Yeah, it is a we're not recording in the studio today. John has some stuff going on, so we're just recording in our med spa today. So yeah. Speaker 1: I wish I would have met you, John. I'm sure you're a lovely guy. Speaker 2: He is a lovely guy. today we're talking about identity, ambition, resilience, friendship, mentorship, and what happens when you refuse to become someone else just to fit in the room you're standing in. So I like all those topics. Yeah, I knew I thought this would be fun what for you and I. Yeah. because we've definitely we one things that I've thing one of the things that I've appreciated about you, Justina, is that neither of us particularly are good at staying quiet. When we think things aren't when something doesn't seem right, let's just put it that way. Yeah. Speaker 1: I l I hate an injustice. You know what I mean? Like it's it's it's hard to stay quiet when you know that you're being wronged and like it doesn't seem like anybody cares. Speaker 2: Yeah. You know what I mean? Absolutely. and I think we saw that happen a lot to us. I think we saw it happen to our peers at times and yeah, neither of us were very good at keeping the lid on it during that time. Speaker 1: I was telling everybody. I'm like, do you want to hear a story about my trauma? Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. so I was thinking back on it, I actually don't remember when we first met. Speaker 1: It had to have been an asterisk. Speaker 2: Yeah, but you were at my house. So as the American Student Dental Association. So you were at my house at one point. And I remember you being there. Yeah. I don't remember why. Like a beginning of the year meeting or something. Speaker 1: I feel like it had to have been No, because I remember I was at your house, it was it had to have been around like something to do with COVID. It had to have been. Yeah. Because remember we were unable to like meet in large groups at the school and so you were hosting people. Were you part of the committee who chose like D one representative? Speaker 2: I was involved with that. Yeah. Speaker 1: Yeah, 'cause I remember Ravi was he must have been like president elect. Speaker 2: Was he your president when you were D one or was it a man? Okay. So it would have been me and Robbie probably picking on picking it out early on. Yeah. And then a few weeks into that we had to do w you know, the stuff happened where I wasn't president anymore. So okay, yeah, that kinda trapped. Speaker 1: That makes sense. Speaker 2: after that I think I only saw you really at conferences because I wasn't as the president anymore, I felt like just so like defeated and like kicked in the shins by the administration at the time and at the school. that I just snuck off to conferences to still like scratch that itch, but I wasn't involved at the school. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Well, it's so funny because you and watching what like happened to you, and feel like even when it was happening, I had such a limited idea of what was even going on. But just watching how like I feel like you were one of the main faces I saw at Azure right when I came in as a D one. And then to see go from that to kind of just like you were like hanging out. I I almost thought like you were maybe on your way out. So to know that you were like a D three at the time, I believe, and like you were still supposed to be super involved, and we just kind of didn't hear a story, because obviously it was none of our business. Right. But you were one of the main reasons why I like, Well, I'm not gonna do Speaker 2: It it was it really was I always questioned whether or not the school liked having ASDA be such a strong presence because if you were president of ASDA you got to sit on the Indiana Dental Association board avoid voting members. Right. Speaker 1: Yeah, right cool. Speaker 2: So we could be there and be like, Yeah, stuff's not going great at the school IDA and they didn't like Speaker 1: No, I you know, it's quintessential silencing. It's like the textbook version of like we want you to have a voice but not if your voice contradicts what we want. Speaker 2: And I'm not saying all the administrators were talking that way, but there was several that were, and unfortunately they had quite a bit of power at the time. But we were at annual session I'm sitting in a room with our friend Dan. Yeah. And you just like come in. I'm like, Hi. Hi, Justina. Welcome to the guys' room. It's messy. Yeah. Speaker 1: I'm here. Speaker 2: And We're just talking back and forth, we're talking about like national ASDA, how it's organized. And you look at me and you go, Elliot, how do I become president of ASDA? And like of the school? And you're like, No. Speaker 1: I don't remember that conversation, but it's so funny because you told me that I said that super early on. And there was I it was either Ravi or maybe one or maybe did somebody else said like you were like from the beginning you were like no I want that job. But I don't remember being I feel like I said it in like jest, but I do say like things are a joke until it Speaker 2: I guess, yeah. And I mean you started like coming in at me. You're like, okay, what do I need to do first? What do I need to do second? Like, okay, you need to become trustee. You know, you knew you need to do this and that. and then you did it. And you were the first black female as the president, which is fucking awesome. I was so proud of you when I found out you were running for trustee. Yeah. Like, is she gonna do it? Like, holy cow. Speaker 1: And it's crazy because I remember the person I was running against was such like a pillar in the district like leadership and she had done so much to like help plan the conference before and it just felt like she was a shoe-in. And so I said I'm like, I'm gonna run for trustee, because this is what apparently what I've been told. I'm gonna run for trustee. I'm gonna try for that. But if I don't get it, 'cause I didn't think I was, 'cause she was such a great candidate, I was like, I'll just, you know, try to do maybe some national leadership and then still circumvent my way around. But I knew being a trustee was like a very important thing. Speaker 2: important point. It's like the most direct path. You can go around but it is harder. Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I remember when I ran for trustee, it was during COVID. I I had like to record a little video and it took me like eighty thousand takes 'cause I kept like just being weird and just not loving exactly how just a bit. Just Speaker 2: Bit of a perfectionist. Yeah. Speaker 1: a bit. So yeah, that was such a crazy time. Speaker 2: Yeah, that that conversation, I I remember there was like a little bit of like who does she think she is? But also like I think she might be able to do it. But I remember sitting you remember Teal, obviously. Of course I remember. So I'm like T Justina wants to be president of Azda and she's like, Yeah, she'll probably pull it off too. So we did have we did that. Speaker 1: Well you know, I love the early confidence. Really, really appreciate it. Speaker 2: do you think you've always like a gunner in that way? Speaker 1: You know what's a little backstory about even my reason for coming to Asda? And this is gonna be a little shady, but I remember when I first started dental school, and I looked around and I knew I wanted to be Orthodox. I like, I want to be an Orthodonist. This is like the lane I chose. And then you get to dental school and you realize like every third person also wants to be an Orthodox. And it's like, and then you realize the GPAs of all these people who want to be Orthodox. And it's very daunting. And I remember like one one of my friends, Brett, I think he was in your class too, Brett Turner. He was the president. He You Yeah, Speaker 2: You guys are both from the same area. Speaker 1: we're from the same area, yep. And he basically told me like you should get super, super involved because he kind of explained the application process and how it's a very holistic application, at least at IU. So if you don't have the GPA, there better be something in your resume that explains why your GPA isn't the 3.9 that they're usually seeing. You know what I mean? Right. So then, you know, I started getting involved with AS, I got involved with SPI, I got involved with SNDA, all the organizations I could think of, but I always came back to AS as just it's like the cream of the crop, in my opinion. Yeah. And so I feel like because of that, I just was super gung ho not only about leadership because I knew that I knew I wasn't gonna spend ten hours in the in the library every day to sure. Speaker 2: Right. Speaker 1: It just wasn't my ministry. I had so much going on and I felt like, you know, even going back further, before I came to dental school I had lost my father. So I was super intentional about making sure that I didn't miss family things. If there was an engagement party, if there was a wedding, I wanted to make sure I was there. And so it's like I'm not I was the person that like if there was a happy hour for my friend who was ex celebrating an engagement on a Thursday, I was trying to leave clinic to go do that. You know what I mean? So I couldn't put in the hours I knew would be necessary to really make the grades. So then I became super intentional about all the other aspects of my application as well. Speaker 2: And I mean to just reflect, like I had a friend who wanted to be a periodonist. He was near the top of our class and he didn't get in because he didn't do anything. Speaker 1: It's that serious. Yeah. And I think that that part of it, especially when I got in over people that were w way higher ranked than me, it was kinda just like, no, they were serious when they said you can't just have the grades anymore because Speaker 2: I mean becoming president of the entire organization was probably a great way to Speaker 1: No, exactly. Once I got out I'm like, I think it's gonna be okay. I think it'll be okay. Yeah. But driving force for sure. Speaker 2: I'm gonna get sure. One thing I always really appreciated about the American Student Dental Association was that it gave power and voice to the students, where the other organizations, you were like the student chapter. Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes. Speaker 2: We want you to be involved once you graduate. So this is how we're getting you involved now. Speaker 1: pitching it early so that you recognize us when we come and ask for your membership fees. Speaker 2: Yeah. Yes. And I think a DSPA and some the others, like the reason that they sometimes had a little bit more clout in the school was because we had administrators involved with those organizations. Yeah. And the rules applied to them differently. For sure. So did your family like encourage this like leadership? Because are you first generation American? Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm first generation American. Yes, yes. So not necessarily I think my mom is very big on like just do the books. Just study. People with A's get to do things. That's the way, that's the clearest, easiest path. She's Speaker 2: She's not wrong. Speaker 1: She's not wrong, but that's just kind of the culture that we grew up in, is just like face your books, face your books, face your books, like study. That's the easiest, most clearest way to become successful, and then do everything else after that. You know what I mean? But I think that we all kind of changed that mindset because I remember the student I was when I was in undergrad trying to get to get into dental school, I could have just been that same student, but I didn't get involved with really anything in undergrad. Just because I was so focused on getting into dental school and getting the GPA and I knew that Leadership mattered, but I and I knew that research and stuff mattered, but I was seeing people, it's very easy to be at the top of your class and get into dental school. Yeah. It's not easy to be at your top of class and also get into residency. Yeah. So you know what saying? So for the beginning, like when I was in undergrad, I just focused on grades. And then I think that when they st saw me starting to kind of like do the ASDA and all these things, my mom was like, wait a minute, I thought you said that this is what you wanted and these are the type of criteria that it takes to get to ortho. And I'm like, Yeah, but I think I'm gonna have to like do it a different way, just for me to Speaker 2: Super important for me as well. Like I, you know, being dyslexic and ADD I didn't get the value from school all the time of sitting in the classroom. I couldn't absorb the information until we got to hands-on. I wasn't pulling it in. so I knew I would never be at the top of the class, like it just wasn't gonna happen. I could be top of the clinic, which is the path that ended up happening for me. Yeah, top of the class probably not wasn't gonna happen. Speaker 1: But I was thinking in my mind, I'm like, who as a patient do I wanna see? The person that was like the best book smarts, the person had the most Speaker 2: Technical skills. Speaker 1: I want the person that can make the teeth pretty. I'm like, I don't care about if you know like the different organic chemistry reasons why we use light cure and all that stuff. Give me the results. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: You know what I mean? So I think that both are important. But if I'm just a person walking down the street, I want you to be competent, obviously with the book smarts to know and how to take care of me. Right. But everybody wants that smile. And that's what you can deliver when you have just the natural talent or you work on the hand scope. Speaker 2: I've found that interesting that as I've gotten out of school, I'm going back to my notes more often and like looking up things that I've forgotten. Yeah. And I feel like I'm retaining that information better now than I ever did in school. Speaker 1: Applying it. Speaker 2: Right. And like a multiple choice exam is not a good way of testing whether somebody understands a subject or not. And that's how we're tested in dental school. Speaker 1: Yeah. I but I mean that's how I feel like school is in general. Yeah it's it's a very like if you're good at t being tested in this one way you'll excel. If you're not, then you won't. And I think that hopefully we're trying to get around to different ways of teaching people, even from like as small as preschool until now. Cause I think that if you realize that you can engage people and and teach people in different ways, then you get a broader variety of different students. You know what I mean? And then you're able to actually impeach them and they're able to actually learn. Speaker 2: I agree and there are some schools doing that now but I remember remediating an exam and they handed me an old blue book and just had me like write out my responses. They like got it back and he's like, you know this and I'm like I've barely studied since I took that exam. Like I I knew the information. I just like I talked myself out of A, B, C and D and it turned out Speaker 1: Or it's like A, B, and C were like a grammatically incorrect version of whatever you had on the PowerPoint and I was confused because I didn't know if you knew what kind of question you were writing. You know what I'm saying? It's lit it could be that simple. Or it's like the A, B, and C were like the captions on one of the charts. Right. And so I just I hadn't looked at every single caption of every single chart and so I got those wrong. But like at the core of me I understand what concepts are being Speaker 2: What are we talking about? Yeah. Yeah. And I like like I look back on dental school and the thing I think I like started to discover like early on was how valuable I found that meant like mentoring people. So like you coming in, asking me about what's it take to do this or staying involved with ASI even when I was kind of like pushed out, pushed to the side. Like I loved that. I think it made me a better student. It made me more engaged way more than anything happening in the classroom. So I think for me Like that mentorship aspect of things, you know, working with young leaders, like being a leader myself, kept me engaged in school. And I don't think administration or most of the instructors ever understood that. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: And they just wanted one type of person going through. And again, it wasn't all of them. There were some really great people we worked with. Speaker 1: No, it's never all. It's never all. But there's always enough people leading the ship that think a certain way and it affected how we were able to learn. But I still think that dental school was an incredible experience. I still look back fondly. Yeah. Speaker 2: You're better than me. Speaker 1: I tried to because I just feel like if I'm always like complaining about this thing, I it at the end of the day it gave me an amazing career. I was able to get everything I needed out of it. So I try to look back at it and be like, you know what? Was it the best? No, but you have to I th I believe the things that are really worth it you have to you have to Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: Yeah in the dental schools that struggle Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was a big one. Yeah. so to keep going, confidence is such a big part of what you do as an orthodontist. You know, you're trying to imbue that into the patient by getting their teeth into the position that they want. Yeah. And me who likes cosmetic dentistry, it's kind of the same thing. But you also have a big air of confidence with you. When you w you do a good job of it. and I try to do the same, but there are times where I feel like I'm masking. For sure. Yeah. for sure. Yeah. Would you see would do you like deal with that too, where you've got this like yeah like level of like well all of all of a sudden my s self esteem is like dropping a little bit, so I need to like put this Speaker 1: Put it on. Yeah. No, I'm a big fake, so you make it that person. Like, you're not gonna see me sweat, but like it's because I have like 10 things of deodorant on, you know what I mean? Like I'm sweat, I'm sweating, I'm nervous, but it's not helpful for me if I know that you know I'm nervous. You know what I'm saying? So especially like I find that now when like you know, I'm definitely working with people's kids, I'm having them trust me about putting all these medical to control their Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: mouths, and so like, and I'm also a younger doc. And so I feel like I try to overcompensate the confidence because I'm like, I want you to. trust that I know what I'm doing. Even though it may not you may be a little nervous because I'm quote unquote not as experienced as maybe somebody who's been practicing for a while. Speaker 2: Yeah, I would agree. Especially when I bought my practice I had to do it way earlier than I expected to because of my father's health. and w we didn't have a lot of systems built. you know, the vision of where the practice needed to go wasn't well defined. And like just getting through that was just yeah, and you have to come in every day and you put a big smile on your face. I probably didn't do the best job of it every day, but I did my best. and y you get there because when it comes to it like the moment like that I walk into the room with the patient to do a procedure they need to know I'm ready to go. Speaker 1: Yeah, you need to be the one that's like unshakeable in the office because the second you start being like, I don't know what to do, like well the team's gonna be like, Well if you think we knew you went to school for all the years. Like if you don't know, God, like, help us, you know. Speaker 2: You always get that assistant that does know more than you like that first week and they're like handing you instruments that you're like, What's this? And they're like, just go like this and you're like Speaker 1: I'm like and you always say something like, yeah, I remember they taught us that. You know what I mean? But you're like, No, don't remember. Thank you for helping me. I appreciate it. Speaker 2: Appreciate it Speaker 1: Yeah, no a seasoned assistant in your first couple of years will like save your life. Yeah. Because no, they didn't go to school, but like they know how to do your job probably as good as you will, at least in the very beginning. Right. You know what mean? So they are invalid Speaker 2: Absolutely. like when it comes to like that air of confidence, did that come from your upbringing? Are there parts of your upbringing that are still influencing you today? Speaker 1: No, for sure. Like I think culturally Nigerians are very proud people. Yes, ask me. Speaker 2: Okay, I do have to ask a question. Okay. I I couldn't remember where in Africa your family was from. Yes. Nigeria. Yes. And I just saw a video of a woman who had like pinpoint accuracy with her slipper off her foot. Speaker 1: No, that gentle parenting stuff, I don't even know if they have a word for it in their language. It's not even it's not even on their radar. And it's one of those things where it's like, you didn't have a choice but to be great. It's like either you'll be great and you'll enjoy it or you'll be great by force. And you'll just be smiling in those doctor pictures and you'll just be smiling and you can cry at your therapist. After we can you can cry at the therapist you can afford because we forced you to be successful. Speaker 2: But also don't tell us that you were at a therapist because we don't want you to Speaker 1: Don't want to we don't wanna know your dirty laundry. We know you have it. Keep it in the closet. You know what I mean? But I think it's one of those things where it's like the confidence was so ingrained because I watched my parents be confident and not maybe know the language or know their ideas. But mama, my mom would always say is like, imagine how smart I would be if I could talk in my own language. Like I'm trying sound intelligent in English, and that's my second language. Imagine how much I can articulate myself if I could speak in my native language. That's awesome. And that always hits so hard for me because it's like you meet people and they're by and try. bilingual and it is the audacity of us Americans who speak English to be like, we're the smartest one in the room. And it's like they like this person in your out your international dental class is learning dentistry in another language. Stop playing with them. Like you know what I mean? Like they have a talent that we can't even imagine because they're doing this in a language that's not even native to them. Yeah. Yeah, it's like insane. So Speaker 2: such a valuable thing that I I think I like learned and realized at IU because they bring in such a large yes group of international students late in our second year. And like there is a dude in his forties. He's probab he's been practicing dentistry for twenty years and like he's struggling with the exams. But if you need help getting a tooth out or something like that, that guy came in and just in like thirty seconds it was done. Eagles it out. Yeah, I learned more from him. half the time in oral surgery than I learned from the instructors. Speaker 1: No, it's because like nothing can nothing in dentistry really replaces that time that and like the actual practice of dentistry. Even if you can't articulate like what exactly that we're doing on paper and on the exams, we know that the international dentists who come in here here who have had twenty years of experience, they're punching higher than us just for the simple fact that they've done this for decades while we're just getting started. So they're invaluable. Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you you're sitting there and you're trying to get one filling done in three hours. Three hours and they get four. Yeah. On day one. Speaker 1: Yeah. Exactly. It's really night and day and that confidence just comes from watching people be confident and also that fake it till you make it. But it's definitely something that was instilled in me. Like You know what, you're not gonna be perfect. So don't expect perfection. Just try your best. That's all you can ask. And when you go in knowing that you're gonna try your best, you're confident. Because I'm like, I'm gonna make a mistake. I might make mistakes. But I didn't show up here trying to do ninety percent. I've always shown up trying to be a hundred percent. And if I fall short of that, it's not because I'm not good enough, it's because I'm a human and I make mistakes. Speaker 2: Yeah. I would agree. don't get me wrong, there were students, both international and American students, right, who probably, you know, were going to struggle in their first couple of years out of school. but Speaker 1: yeah. I mean Speaker 2: there to just say that like that person is less intelligent or less good at dentistry because of the path they took to get here absolutely ridiculous. Speaker 1: It doesn't make any sense. Speaker 2: I think confidence comes through repetition. I think it comes through experiences. and if you like the way to become confident is by learning. Unless Speaker 1: Yes. Speaker 2: you're a sociopath or a narcissist, then you you get to do you get it automatically. Which doesn't seem fair. Speaker 1: It's like why are they being bla so they're horrible? Yeah, no, I get it. Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think also it comes with like being comfortable in your own skin. And one thing that like I've always tried to be is unapologetically myself. Yeah. Speaker 1: So me so true. Speaker 2: Yeah. Like we didn't like necessarily go about things the way that we should have and I don't think either of us played politics as well as we have. Like Yeah. Speaker 1: No. Couldn't I have a horrible broken face. Yeah, I used to be sitting in meetings like this this face like this Speaker 2: Yeah. I either have like resting RBF or I have elation. Like those are Yeah. Speaker 1: There is no in between or I'm out. Speaker 2: Yeah. But my problem is like people will be like, Are you mad? this is a funny story. I had a brand new employee in the in the med spa here. And like I came through and I asked her a quick question and she gave me the answer and I just was like, Okay, and I walked out of the room. And she thought I was mad at her. I was like, What's the problem? Yeah. Then she goes to Kayla, our our NP, and she goes, Doctor Elliott, like, well, I think he's mad at me and Kayla goes, That's just his face, it's fine. Speaker 1: That's my God made it flick. It's fine. Speaker 2: Everything's good. That's funny. like were you always like that? Were you were like did you try to fit the mold at any point? Speaker 1: You know what, I definitely when I was younger definitely tried to fit the mold. Speaker 2: Yeah. Did that come with like being from an immigrant family? Speaker 1: I think so and just trying to fit in when I already knew and fit in the ways that I could control 'cause I already knew that like maybe my backstory wasn't gonna be the same as my peers. So I would try to assimilate in ways that I think that like I said, I could control. but I think that the thing that made me just be like apologetically myself is that losing my dad at such a young age. It's just like At the end of the day, none of this stuff matters. Like, if y if I'm not gonna sit here and try to be this perfect, you know, perfect person or this perfect representation of what I think they're looking for when in reality, like, I could die tomorrow. You know, it sounds bad, but to have that realization at such a young age is just like you really gotta live every day to your fullest. And how can you do that if you're trying to be somebody else? When did your Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: He died like two years before I started dental school. Okay. So the first time I applied to dental school, he passed I applied in May and he passed in July. Yeah. So I didn't even go to any of those first applications that first round. And then of course the second round, I went and the Speaker 2: Thank you. Speaker 1: following year I went in. But I think that's just one of those things everybody has something in their life that like changes their perspective. Yeah. And sometimes it's when you're younger, sometimes it's when you're a lot older, but that changed my perspective when I was so young to kind of just be like if you start trying to be somebody that you're not at the tender age at like you're younger, it's so much harder to like read and undo that stuff. Who Speaker 2: And figure out who you are. Speaker 1: you are. Like in your twenties, when you're younger is the time where you can make mistakes, figure out who you are because everybody's doing it. Right. And I always talk about it it's like the same way. It's like when you're like learning how to do makeup, learn how to do makeup when you're a teenager because everyone looks crazy. When you're you know what I mean, everyone has the island it's you look a mess, but like or everyone looks a mess together. When you try to learn how to do makeup at fifty and you got like blue eyeshadow on and purple lipstick and you're f and you're somebody's grandmother. It just it's hits different. So it's like try to make those mistakes when you're finding yourself. Don't try to be the one that has it all done. Yeah. Speaker 2: You don't want to be Foxy Grandma. Speaker 1: Yeah. You wanna be the grandma that's I'm doing my treatment, honey. I don't even wear makeup anymore. You know what I mean? Like that's the grandma you wanna be. Speaker 2: I would agree. Like, I think it's also better for mental health too. Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Speaker 2: Because like if you can't figure out who you are, and you can't be yourself, yeah. Like that can really drain on your soul and on your psyche. And one thing that I think I've told a lot of people over the years is like not you don't have to be the dentist or the orthodontist for every patient. No. They can go somewhere else and that's okay. Speaker 1: My favorite thing to say to a patient is you're welcome to get a second opinion. Yeah. Especially if you're like, if I can already tell you're gonna be a trouble patient, I'm like, my gosh, you should go and try to find somebody who does X, Y, Z. We don't do it in this office, especially when it comes to like mini implants, tads, like if they're gonna have a crazy bite and you already have like a perfectionist mindset going into it, and I know it's gonna be a struggle for you to accept what this is actually gonna look like. My favorite thing to say is, and you're welcome to get a second opinion. Yeah. And if that means that they do and they find somebody that's gonna sell them a dream and like, you know what I mean, and pretend that they can make them into this person. It's like so many people go into dentistry when they really should be in a plastic surgeon's office. Yeah. It's like the things you're wanting me to do with just teeth to change your face is impossible. Right. So if you want those type of outcomes and I can't manage your expectations, please find somebody who can. Speaker 2: Yeah, and the management of expectations is super important. Never make promises you can't keep. That's why new dental students or new people coming out of dental school, buy a camera. Take pictures everything you do. Speaker 1: Yes. Speaker 2: So when somebody asks you, can you do this, you're not pulling up a picture on Google Speaker 1: No. Speaker 2: and showing them something you can't do. Speaker 1: I had a patient the other day, he had like a he quintessential classic example, gets the braces off, he has gap between the three front teeth, doesn't wear the retainer, and like six months later he comes back in for his retainer check, and there's a large and there's like a gap. And the dentist before me or the orthodontist before me, that he would make like this. retainer contraption that would like close the space. And so he's like, Why can't I get that? And I'm like, it's not because I don't think it worked. but in my hands I can't guarantee that that's gonna be the outcome. And I only really am trying to do things that I know will be successful for you if you're gonna pay for it. Yeah. And that wasn't the answer he wanted, but I think I think I go to sleep at night thinking that that was the best choice. Cause at least it didn't take his money thinking like sell him a dream. Like I told him I'm like, I know that's possible. But I don't sign up for treatment that I haven't been able to either see that it's like the streamlined treatment that we all do or I've been able to do it myself. Speaker 2: But there's also like a willingness of like trying something new too. Absolutely. Absolutely. Like I'm sure you can like through you know, your your father passing or things like that. Like confidence we get by surviving things sometimes. Yeah. but we always have to like come back to like what are we comfortable doing? Yes. Where are we willing to push things? Where's where do I have enough education and and Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: knowledge to try something? And do I have the right mentor to do it? Like I'll have patients say, Well, your dad would do this. And I'm like, My dad used pins and amalgam to put teeth back together. Speaker 1: Yes, yes. Speaker 2: We aren't taught to do that anymore. It's not the best way to do it. And just because it worked in your mouth for twenty years, it was probably tried in a lot of other mouths and it didn't last. Yeah. So like you have a you're very fortunate that it worked out. Yeah. and then the opposite is true too. We'll do a roo I'll do a root somebody will come in and I don't want a root canal, it all failed after fifteen years. I'm like Yeah, you had you had a tooth for 15 years is what you're telling me. Yeah, I Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2: had one patient two days ago, full go crown, beautiful gold work, it's got some secondary decay underneath it. And he's like, But a lot of his crowns were having issues in the past like year and a half. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: And he's like, Why are all my crowns having issues? Like, can you look when I had this done? And I'm like, Well, was it done here? And he's Yeah, and I'm like, I should be able to. Yeah. I'm like going through and I'm scrolling up the chart. And I was like, Sir? This crown was done on july seventeenth, nineteen ninety two. Speaker 1: This crown the the crown has tried. The crown has tried for d multiple decades. Like it's tired. Yeah It's you know, needs to be checked out. Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Listened up after that when he realized that he had got thirty four years out of a single crown. Speaker 1: Yeah. But I think, you know, look to your point, like all those things matter and, you know, figuring out where you're comfortable trying to kind of pushing the envelope or trying to try something new. Yeah. As long as you go in with transparency with the patient, like, you know, I don't have a lot of records that this is gonna be working, but I know that this is a possibility. And if they're willing to try and you're willing to try, I think that is a a opportunity for you b for you to build confidence. Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think that the mentorship of having someone, it sounds like you're working with a guy who's really open to asking asking questions. Speaker 1: Yeah. for sure. Speaker 2: I had some really good mentors. you know, Dr. Savanich, I would hit up every once in a while. and then my clinic director I would hit up, like, and then I had a couple of other people out, like when I had been out of dental school. But I also like attached myself to a couple of the specialists, like Speaker 1: Yes, yes. Speaker 2: hey. Gonna try this. Are you there to bail me out if it doesn't work? Speaker 1: Yes, fair. Speaker 2: Rarely ever had to pull that ripcord, but it was it was nice to have that. one of the th things that we've talked about a little bit is you and I are both really willing to work our asses off for things. Sure. and we have goals in mind that we're going to obtain and if people get in our way we get annoyed. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2: and when I look at some of the things and ways we were effed over by different situations, you know, I I just I'm wondering how you feel about that. Like when somebody tells you no, is your reply no yes. Like Speaker 1: I I think it it depends on what it is. Like if it's a goal of mine, like for example, I wanted to be an orthodontist since I got braces when I was younger. You know what I mean? So if you're trying to tell me no, I can't be an orthodontist and that happens, of course, you know, when you're in when you're an undergrad and they tell you the only people that get to dental school are people who have four point oh's, you know what I mean? So when stuff like that comes up, I'm like, Okay, yeah, but you're you're just not the advisor for me. If you're if you're gonna be a an advisor that tells me that only the people who get straight A's are going into medical and dental school, you you don't Right. So in those cases I kinda just I'm just Speaker 2: Like I I was a college dropout and I went back to school and yeah, the adSAS re ranks your GPA even if it was seven years ago. Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly. So I think in those cases I'm very easy to be like, yeah, whatever, you don't know what you're talking about. I think it's important to take critique and take that no from the right person. Like if somebody who knows me, like if my siblings or my mom or somebody's like, I think that's I think you're punching above your weight class, I'm more likely to be like, Okay, let me think rethink this from them than somebody who's gonna compare me to like a textbook and be like, Well, a bunch of people didn't do this, so you can't do this, because I've seen that be proven wrong a million times. But I think it's just who was telling me. me no, that kind of dictates my response. Because if you know me and you know my story and you're trying to caution me from a place of like love and respect, then I'm more willing to be like, you know what, let me take a step back because this is a person I know who wishes me well. Whereas if you're just somebody who's gonna just give me a textbook answer, then I can give you one back and thank you for your time. I'm gonna, you know, I can seek a second opinion as well. Speaker 2: Yeah. I I like it. there's always a different mentor out there for you, a different advisor. Right. the path through life is r rarely a single road to a goal. Sometimes there's a very small road that you can get on to get there and it might be a lot harder to get through. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: but one thing I don't like is when I've pushed super hard to accomplish something. Yes. And somebody who may or may not have gotten in my way like inserts themselves into this. I'm gonna bring up a very specific example. I was trying to get dates right on like when we met, that type of thing. And you know, so I'm Googling trying to find stuff Speaker 1: Yes. Speaker 2: and I find an IUSD post bragging about how Justina is the first black. female president of ASDA I looked at the date on it and I was like, I'm pretty sure two months before this she called me telling me they were trying to block the whole thing. Absolutely. Did that piss you off? Speaker 1: It pisses me off in such a deep way because I remember right before I got on stage to give my speech to like say that you want to be a candidate. Yeah I opened an email from somebody saying, Yeah well the decision is you're not gonna be able to run. I'm like sitting in the auditorium. I got my purple suit on, I got my shoes, hair is done, makeup is done, I'm getting on that stage. I opened it, I've been like scrolling on my phone and I open it and it's literally the person who's in charge at the time being like, yeah unfortunately we came to a decision, the committees decided you're unable to run for this position. And I remember my client And I was like, well, I'm not gonna tell them that now. Like I'm here. So I got on stage, I did the whole thing, and I won. And I was gonna address it afterwards. And even afterwards, they're Yeah, you're gonna have to write them and tell them that you are no longer can do the position. Yeah. And you know, so for all of that to happen, and I finally, you know, I made my way, I was able to have them overturn the decision and become the president and stay president, but to then after that become like this show pony where every single Black History Month, here I go. you know, we we have the first black female president. Yeah. So I did something in retaliation for that and basically I've only given the I guess what was the DEI office the permission to use my likeness. And that was they were they were the one that wrote the article. So I was able to proofread it. That's where that came from, right? But I still get emails to this day asking me, can we use this for this? And I say, I'm like, if it's not from this one specific office, I don't feel comfortable with it because I'm not comfortable with you all using and like having my narrative because I don't want you to spin it and make it untrue. So the only reason that I was able to be comfortable with that article is because I knew who wrote it and I knew that they were going to you know, they're writing it from a place of congratulatory. You know what I mean? But they're Speaker 2: I wondered about Speaker 1: like even just like two just a couple months ago. Speaker 2: That'd come out of like the academic affairs office. No. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no. The same office that was like actually no, so what makes me mad about it's even today they'll like be like, Hey, can we do this, can we do that? And I'm just like, Clearly you guys have not There's no history and there's gonna be no account of how I got to that position. Right. They're gonna like, This is one of our students and she did this. You know what I mean? They're going to try to gloss this over as if they were always supportive basically. And that was not the case. Speaker 2: And that and that's what happened with me too. I remember I got the delegate of the year. Is that what Yeah, I guess Yeah, I got I I got that award and they did a like an announcement above it about it and then they always put out their like magazine thing every year. and it was after I had gone toe to toe with one of the administrators and told him that he was more concerned about his own career and C V than he was the students. Ooh. Yeah. Probably said too much. Yeah. I've been there. and then they cropped me out of the photo of the American Student Dental Association leadership. Like literally I was at the end and they just cropped the photo. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah, and then I was in another picture and they put the word blurb right over my face. Speaker 1: It's just the petty is so crazy when especially when you're in a student position, you feel like you're in a vulnerable position and the administration is like goading you in that way on their publications. It's like this is insane. Speaker 2: We had such a cool dean at the time too, Murdoch Kinch and the one before that. Like but you couldn't get to them to talk to them about the situation half the time and their hands were so tied by the bureaucracy of everything that they couldn't help you. Speaker 1: And even to this day, like I've done so much I wanna say healing 'cause that's kinda like whatever, but like reflection of just like, you know what, I can appreciate the situation as people trying to go by the book or whatever they were trying to do, but at the point where you are blocking people from having like incredible experiences because of grades that in general you we all can realize don't matter, I think there has to be nuance when it comes to these decisions. And that's what I was missing. Speaker 2: And I think I want like this to refocus on like not just a complaining session of like these injustices. Yeah. But like you and I both had to have the resilience to like eventually accomplish their goals. My goal was to become the best dentist I could I thought I also wanted to really get involved in organized dentistry outside of dental school. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: but What happened in dental school to me and what happened after dental school really prevented me from getting involved in organized dentistry to the level that I thought I would be in. Yeah. And that's okay. my career's great. I have an awesome life. But just to give context to this whole thing, because some the basically your story and my story in this situation. Very similar. Yeah. So part of like the education process in dental school is You're going to take these classes, and if you don't do as well on them, and this is the same in medical school too. Yeah. We're going to do something called a remediation. for some of the directors higher up. Yeah. They look at it as you're failing. Speaker 1: Right. Like they look at it as benchmarks. Speaker 2: And so I remediated a class. was Dr. Stewart I like Speaker 1: craniofacial development. Speaker 2: sat down and he like him and I worked through it and he's like, You're great. so Dr. Stewart's awesome instructor. Yeah. but I was running for trustee of ASDA at the time, and they're like, Well You can't do because we can't give you like a what did they call it? Academic clearance. Speaker 1: Yes, yes. Speaker 2: And I remember at the time I knew that there were other organizations in the school with leaders on academic probation and they were being treated differently. I was basically kind of shut down, you can't do anything about it. Yeah. And I also didn't want to get those people in trouble. Speaker 1: Sure. Speaker 2: Then something pretty much similar happened to you and you called me and you're like, What do I do? And I'm like I gave I don't know if I gave you good advice. I would just I don't know, Justina. like they do this. They don't care. Well Speaker 1: the so I think from Ollie take off from where after we had a conversation you're like what and I was like what should I do and you were the one that told me that there were people who were in other organizations who were also in academic probation and that's what caused me to look if there are people during my time who were also in academic probation. And they were 100% were. Yeah. And I don't know, I didn't really feel bad about them getting in trouble. If I'm being honest. Yeah. Speaker 2: I need Justina to like come in and lay the justice down. Speaker 1: One thing I'm gonna do is I'm gonna go above somebody's head. Okay. If I couldn't get to the dean, I'm going to IUP wise diversity, equity, and inclusion office. I'm going to raise the red flag and be like, I'm being mistreated, and I'm going to get some justice. Because at the end of the day, there were too many people before me who were silent and it just derailed them. And I wasn't about to be embarrassed and have you guys put out a thing, be like, she just won this president thing, but actually we're gonna have to go with her understanding or some random thing that would be humiliating for me. Yeah. And so I just was. like well I'm gonna fight tooth and nail, I'm gonna go to the absolute empty degree. I think it also doesn't help that I was already in the position that they were trying to I was You guys yeah, yeah. So to me it was like I think I went so hard because not only was like like this is something that's happening to me and it's not fair, but I also was just like I'm not coming up off of this stage and off of this position because of a technicality for a class that mind you is a specialty class and I was already going to a different specialty. Why are you worrying about a period when I'm gonna be Dorotho? If I'm doing anything with the gums, something's going horribly wrong. Right. But I should be with the brackets and the wires doing my thing. Speaker 2: Also the Perio department looked at it in a way of like this remediation is our chance to like educate you further. Yes. Like so many people had to remediate or failed that class. It was like twenty seven percent when I graduated. Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's gotten better, but I think it's because Speaker 2: I don't care. Any class that's got a twenty seven percent fail rate is ridiculous. Speaker 1: It's ridiculous. Especially when it's not like it's not a SABS. No. It's not a core class. It's Speaker 2: Sabs is a scientific biology Speaker 1: So that to me was a little bit more of why I was like, you know, I I'm gonna take it a little further than Elliot did because one Speaker 2: I think I told you you might need to lawyer up. Yeah. Speaker 1: And I didn't necessarily lawyer up, but Speaker 2: No, you kinda did. Speaker 1: Yeah. But as the lawyer was like, Yeah, this is not something ain't clean in the buttermilk. And the asda lawyer is basically like if you find one student who is on academic probation or you hear get a whiff of them, then their entire thing is null and void. Yep. And I remember this is an insider because somebody who was on that committee when they were deciding it ended up coming to me and like taking me to the side and being like, I'm not allowed to be saying this, but when the the when they had to go back to that committee and say, hey, you know, because of X, Y, and Z, we have to let her continue on with this position, one of the people in the committee had said something like, Well, they have an effing gun to our head now, like we can't even basically we can't even do what we want with our own students. Yeah. Because I UPUI was like, that's weird. Like just let her do the little president thing. Like stop it. Right. Speaker 2: Right. And that was the big thing too, is like the at the time it wasn't a huge time commitment to be trustee. It like what, we would be gone every six weeks on a weekend for a day. This Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: is not a full I'm not taking a full time job in some like dental lab or something. Speaker 1: No. It was super low commitment, high reward for Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: you as a student to be involved in these organizations. So it really should be one of those things where we're gonna try our best. If you're doing okay, we're gonna try our best to make Speaker 2: Right, but because it's not a DIA or SPIA or anything like that, I when I found out, like I was at my first ASA annual session, first year the ADA president got up, spoke on everything, school paid for her flight, her hotel, like I think ASDA paid for part of it too. But Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: you know, she got to like got to miss an exam. I found out the next year that she was on academic probation when that happened. And until Speaker 1: Yeah, that's Speaker 2: like I'm in the same position you are where like you've got you don't want them using your face or your story for anything. Whenever they ask me for money, my response is always is so and still still working there, if so Speaker 1: Like give me a really quick roll of next to the faculty because I'll be able to tell you if I'm donating money or not. Speaker 2: And it's such a hard thing for someone like me, you've worked so hard and somebody puts a roadblock in front of you for petty reasons, and because of the situation that you're in, you are absolutely powerless to circumvent it. And Speaker 1: For sure. Speaker 2: like I don't think they understood how like demoralizing that was for a student to do stuff like that. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Because it's just like you're already dental schools already understandably and widely known as a very challenging time. So when the students are going out of their way to take on more just to have a glimmer of fun during that experience, and you're like pushing them down and be like, Nope, just study, just study. It's just like dang the pettiness was high. Speaker 2: And the pettiness was high. Yeah, that the same the same guy that we're talking about that got in our way at times, tried to have me dismissed the next year. Like and it was Speaker 1: Just like it at that point, do you need more responsibilities at your job? Like why why are you so upset? Speaker 2: Right. But I think it taught me something different. It taught me to be resilient. It taught me to like if the roadblock comes in front of me, I'm gonna find a way around it. You just have to Or I'm gonna or am I I'm gonna have to change the goalpost a little bit. And Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: So now I've moved my goal here, Will I Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 2: still get to the same endpoint? If I do, like who cares? Who cares? Yeah, yeah. It's okay. Speaker 1: No, I think that it teaches you resilience and then it also teaches you like it sounds cheesy, but like that whole life isn't fair thing is really real. Like you'll watch somebody sit and have the same things happen to them and they'll be praised and lauded and given all these things. And for some reason the same thing can happen to you and you become this person that they feel like they need to suppress Speaker 2: Right. Speaker 1: and You know, being able to keep some lightheartedness about you, being able to not let it really drag you down is another real thing. Exactly it's cleansing, it's healing, and it's one of those things where it's like, I'm gonna laugh my way through this, otherwise I'm gonna cry. So I'm just gonna have to laugh. Speaker 2: I had really great people around me too that helped a lot. Like my wife, Desiree, was awesome at Desiree. Yes. my dog Big Rhonda, you know, she was my rock. Yeah. If I was sitting in my office crying like about something, she'd come she'd burst in and just start barking. Yeah because she didn't know what to do. Dad's dad Yeah, Speaker 1: There's water coming out. Speaker 2: I gotta fix him. and great friends in dental school that would like check in on me. Sure. and I think it's the people around you that can help you heal at times too. Speaker 1: think that's one of the ways that I wish I would have been like better 'cause I think that after going through that I've kind of just like shrunk in myself. Speaker 2: Yeah, Speaker 1: Yeah. For sure. Like in terms of just like interacting with people in dental school. I have like a really close group of friends from undergrad and so I kind of just, you know, fell back on them and it really put a wall between like what relationships I was willing to have at the dental school. Cause I was just like I would basically when I went to ASDA I'd like super happy, super light. And then IUSD I just associated with like this dark cloud and then it made me not want to go to like a you know what's that what's that bar crawl they do at the beginning of every year? Huspid Speaker 2: It's been crazy. Speaker 1: crawl, like these huge events That people that bring us together as students, it I just skipped all of that because I just didn't feel like either one being the one that's like moping about, like, everyone else is having a good time. And I'm like, no, but they're being mean to me. I didn't want to be that person. And I also didn't want to be like super fake and be my God, like we're all having the same experience and we all love it here when I didn't have those feelings. So I think that's one thing I definitely regret is I think that if I wanted to, you know, really lean on my class, I don't think that anybody in my class was like malicious, and I don't think that they were in those positions on. academic probation to spite me, but it felt like that. And so it made me kind of be like, well ASDA, I'm one way when I'm with my ASDA people and then IUSD does head gets nothing from it. Right. You know what mean? Speaker 2: Success is rarely an individual accomplishment. For sure. You have to have a team of people that you work with. Like for me, it's my team in my dental practice. Yeah. My team at home. it's hard. I remember when you got into IUSD's or program. Yeah. Like you're gonna be there for another two years. But it was a better experience. That's what I want to get to the positive. Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember I rem w for sure. Like I'm so at all. Yeah. Speaker 2: You got to d Orthodonics and it was a butter experience. Speaker 1: was a hundred percent better and I think that, you know, for me being able to experience IUSD as a dental student and then experience as it as a resident was like healing in a way. Okay. Because like Speaker 2: That's awesome. Speaker 1: Yeah, in my residency it it was just like, just get to the end line. Like we're not like we're not really worried about your grades. We're not really worried about X, Y, and Z. We just want you to like get the information and get out, which is what I thought that dental school was gonna be like. So to be able to have that in that same environment and have people in leadership that I felt like really did just want you to know your information and not hurt people and just have as positive experience as you could, I think that helps kind of make it be like, you know what? It was just a I was just a product of a poor environment at the time, but that's not a reflection of the school as a whole. And even when they ask me for money, I'm like, Here you go, here you take your little money. Like you know what I mean? I'm like, whatever. Yeah, I'm like I'm like I want my money going here and here and here. Speaker 2: It does not go to the pathology department. I like that you had that cleansing experience. Cause I don't think I ever got that. I'll be honest with you. Like it just I graduated during COVID first of all. So I remember walking out of the building for the last time and like I never have to go in there again. But there was no elation from it. It was really strange. It was just I'm done. I don't have to go in here anymore. That's great. I think both of us just tried to make the best out of the bad situation. Speaker 1: to you have to because that's it's not gonna be the only bad situation we go through. You know what mean? Like dental school is good because you're you're in your twenties or your thirties, you're young, and so you have to go through this like experience that's supposed to be a trial and tribulation to come out the other end. There's gonna be many things that aren't dental school that you have to go through like that in life. Yeah. And so being able to build up that resilience just in a professional capacity and a personal capacity is just super important. And then figuring out who you need to be able to get you through those situations where you talk about mentors, you talk about friends, family. Like you start to build that bubble around you because you know that this is not gonna be the next time you're ch tested in this way. It's not gonna be a similar situation, but you need to have that type of armor around you to be able to deal with anything in life and to s kind of learn that in a very controlled environment where, you know, it feels super, super intense that at the end of the day we both got out and we're both living lives that we want. And we also have the additional, learning experience where it's like, now I know what I need to do and I know who I need to lean on, I think it was worth it. Speaker 2: it took me a few years to to get to that point. I would agree, like coming out of dental school it was hard for me. My dad got sick, like I end up move like graduated in COVID, which sucked. I really do not want any dental student who's hearing this or somebody who's fresh out of dental school too. like interpret this as us saying like like just get over the hump and then it's rainbows. Speaker 1: Right. Absolutely. Speaker 2: 100% is not. Like if you look at my practice and like look what I'm doing, it looks like it's fun all the time. It's not. It's really, really hard. And any like buddy who is suffering practicing dentistry right now. I want you to feel validated. Absolutely. Because for a lot of people, your first job will not be your last job. Yes. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: and that's okay. the the place that you signed up for not working out, it might be your fault, but it probably is. Speaker 1: It's a case by case scenario. Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. It's the same thing where I say be unapologetically yourself unless you suck. Then you Speaker 1: You are a terror. Speaker 2: Yeah. Then make yourself better and then be unapologetically. Speaker 1: You seek a very good therapist, get your chick together, and then be out of context with yourself. Yes, Speaker 2: Or or acting lessons. One of the Speaker 1: yes. Speaker 2: you were asking me earlier and I'm just gonna invite you to to continue that part of the conversation of like what does it take to get out of dental school and like start practicing? Like what do I look for and things like that? Speaker 1: It's yeah, the really the question is like when you don't know where to begin. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: So obviously, you know, they'll tell us, you know, that first job, look for mentorship, etc. etc. But you also want you have questions about well who's the right type of mentor. So all of those things I think that is the biggest thing once you're done with dental school, it's like, okay, where do I go next? And who do I listen to when there's like just so many voices screaming at you to the go this way or go that way? So Speaker 2: I'm gonna give this like answer in two bits. So when I was in dental school, my clinic director was absolutely fantastic. and we had some really good clinical faculty, like IUSD's clinical faculty were amazing. I learned so much from them. I also knew that there was more to it because a lot of these guys. were retired dentists, they had been out of the game for a long time, or they were really, really young and they were just like trying to like like improve their income or they just they wanted to do something a day a month. Speaker 1: Yes, yes. Speaker 2: So I ended up shadowing at other dental offices during dental school. I went to like five or six different dental offices during dental school and I attached to one of them the hardest. It was called I think microscope dentistry. Then Carmel. Bougie practice. Loved it. I love a bougie. Yeah. Dr. Randy Shoop. really cool guy. Could be an abrasive guy. Yeah. I remember talking to a few of the like clinical faculty and they're like, You're shadowing who? And I was like, I'm like, Yeah, he's Learning a lot. And they're like, All right. And then I remember talking to my clinic director and he was like, He's a bit of an odd duck. You're gonna learn a lot there. And that was his way of just being very, very nice and professional about it. Well you're gonna Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: So I that's how I found mentors. Some of those guys, not just the people in dental school I leaned on afterwards. I started shadowing during dental school. So Speaker 1: Yeah, that's smart. Speaker 2: I would take if we had a day where the clinic was closed, I would go to another office. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2: and that was hugely valuable. I didn't have to spend a lot of money on CE because I had seen so many things and while it wasn't always hands-on training, I had seen it be done multiple times. Yeah. That I could come in and I could apply the same thing. The other thing is get your deniform out and practice. Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to. I think that's I feel like you have to kinda go back to how you learned dentistry in the first place. Right. But I also think it's so awesome to do it while you're in dental school because I think it's different when you're out and you're trying to like shadow a different See it's it's Speaker 2: That's what I wanted, you know. Speaker 1: harder because they're like you are also their competition at that point. Right. When you're a dental student I feel like the door is are open, you know it's a little easier. So that's Speaker 2: And I would agree, yes, in dental school it was easier, but it can still be done when you get out. Yeah. And like I think this applies to a lot of different like businesses and and professions. Yeah. But I went and signed up for Spear, which is a big continuing educational group. I talk about them a lot But I attach myself to the faculty there. Now they're my mentors. Now they're the people that I can lean on, email, and get information from. Sure. Or the the people that are involved in in my classes Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: sitting next to a guy who yeah he takes out third molars all the time but he doesn't know how to do half the cosmetic stuff I need to do but I can call him when I have a tricky extraction. Speaker 1: Yeah, and vice versa. Speaker 2: It's super great. So like getting like networking, going to the like going to the cocktail hour at the end of a class when you're tired and miserable. You Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: like get people's phone numbers, talk to people, that's huge. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: and I talked to a lot of our friends and a couple of people that you'll know, like, well, I haven't done any CE yet. Or I'm like, first of all, you need it for your license. You better be doing it. Like literally. Yeah, like I'm almost at the 400-hour mark at this point. Like I'm feeling really good about that. Yeah, that's awesome. Thank you. And because of that, I have so many people that I can call when I get into different situations. And I've created a toolbox of different like techniques that I can use. So even if you're like, I don't know what I want to do. take a treatment planning course. Yeah. Speaker 1: Start the basic. Speaker 2: Like, I know how to treatment plan. But do you? Because you're calling me asking me how to treatment plan. Speaker 1: Yeah, so maybe a little sprucing up wouldn't hurt. Speaker 2: Right. So like humili like being humble, willing to go to those courses and then putting yourself out there. Like if you're not an extroverted person and it's exhaust yeah, Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: it's hard. I get it. It's super hard. but the value you're gonna get out of it, that's how you find mentors. That's how you find mentorship. you were asking me about like what to look at for in a practice and things like that. Speaker 1: Yeah, and like what how do you know about insurance, collections, all these different things where, you know, I'm lucky enough to be in an office where I can just ask for those type of things. But sometimes it's kinda like gate kept a little bit as if you're an associate. So understanding where you can get that information. Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't know if like for me it's when I don't like give that information out to like it's not that I'm hiding it from my associate. but it's also like I want you to become a really good dentist right now, Dr. Butler. And she's already a really good dentist. So I'm like there to like help her clinical stuff. Speaker 1: With the clinical style. Speaker 2: When you're ready to talk about when her she's ready or a future associate is ready to talk about the business stuff, the door is still open, but it gets really complicated and I'm still learning it. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2: problem is is that the goalpost is changing on those things. If you're in network with an insurance company, they can change their like processes, put it into or their like fee structures or this or that, they put it in fine print and you'll never know if they changed it unless you're digging into it all the time. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: So that's where the private party like insurance like consultants come in really, really handy. when it comes to like the insurance dees and like how to navigate that, having a consultant and doing a ton of reading is valuable. In fact, I would find out which consulting agency you want to work with by talking to your peers. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: Don't just Google the one with the best reviews, talk to people who've actually use to them find out how much it's gonna cost for a full year with them and add that to your loan Speaker 1: Absolutely. Speaker 2: yeah so that's what I would do. I had a I've I worked with a group called Custom Dental Solutions. They were awesome. I wish I had hired them like six months before I did. yeah. Speaker 1: Really? Speaker 2: Cause I didn't hire them until like November and I bought in March. Speaker 1: Or before you bought the practice. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Speaker 2: Yeah, that's how much they helped me. Speaker 1: So really it is you have to keep networking, you have to keep reaching out. Even if you're an introvert, you have to figure out a way to be able to connect with people. Yeah. And I remember in Dem in Asda, they like the introverts like the people that are like writing down the email that they put that you're you as a presenter, you put your email on the last page 'cause you're just like, you know, you think it's gonna be fluff, but there's somebody in the audience who doesn't want to go up to you, right. But they will email you. And if that means you gotta put a a message through Chat GPT and like send that, then at least you're making those connections. So Speaker 2: It really is. I do. And yeah, it was the same thing for me at speaking events. I've had people email me afterwards because they don't want to talk to me at the time. So you Speaker 1: Totally fine. Speaker 2: All right. Unfortunately, we had some technical issues and our recording feed got cut off. a little early here with Dr. Anibo, Justina. So we tried to record a new one a little later and that one had issues too. So there's just me recording this outro. had an absolutely fantastic time with my friend Justina. So I would love to get her back on again sometime and we're gonna have to because obviously those technical issues cannot be the the ending to that story, but thank you for listening to another awesome episode of the Death Before Decay podcast with Dr. Elliott. I hope you all have a fantastic day, a fantastic journey, and we hope to see Dr. Anibo back on very soon. Thanks.