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Breaking Down The AT&T-Discovery Merger · Bloomberg Intelligence

0:00
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney, alongside
0:04
Speaker 1: my co host Matt Miller. Every business day we bring
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Speaker 1: you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts, along
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Speaker 1: with essential market moving news. Find the Bloomberg Markets Podcast
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Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, and
0:18
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. Well. As Tom Keane
0:22
Speaker 1: would say, this is the discussion of the morning. In
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Speaker 1: his merger Monday, A T T spinning off its media
0:27
Speaker 1: assets and discovery, you're gonna merge with those, creating a
0:30
Speaker 1: pretty pretty big media company. Uh. Fortunately, we have two
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Speaker 1: of the absolute top analysts on Wall Street to chat
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Speaker 1: about this, and fortunate for us, they work at the
0:39
Speaker 1: same firm, so it's easy to get them on together,
0:42
Speaker 1: Michael Nathanson and Craig Moffat. They are founding partners at
0:45
Speaker 1: Moffatt Nathanson. Craig, let me start with you, boy, what
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Speaker 1: does this say about A T and T strategy over
0:51
Speaker 1: the last several years to transform itself into I guess
0:54
Speaker 1: a media company. It's a big about face, isn't it? Boy?
0:58
Speaker 1: It sure is. Um. This is a thank you for
1:00
Speaker 1: having us on this is this is a complete capitulation strategically. Um.
1:06
Speaker 1: But but in some ways you have to give them
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Speaker 1: some credit. It is rare that a management team is
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Speaker 1: willing to admit so openly that they made a mistake
1:14
Speaker 1: and they've got to retrench. Usually, you you require a
1:18
Speaker 1: changeover in the management team. And while it was Randall
1:21
Speaker 1: Stevenson that that was at the helm when these deals
1:24
Speaker 1: were made, John Stanky was very much in the co
1:28
Speaker 1: pilot seat and advocated for both of these deals, and
1:31
Speaker 1: so to see him changing his mind, it's an enormous
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Speaker 1: loss of value for a T and T shareholders, to
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Speaker 1: the tune of more than a hundred billion dollars low. Um.
1:40
Speaker 1: But but I guess you do have to give them
1:42
Speaker 1: some credit for at least acknowledging they made a mistake
1:45
Speaker 1: in reversing. So how are I mean, that's amazing. Let's
1:50
Speaker 1: just go through those deals if we could. Michael, can
1:53
Speaker 1: you can you sound it up for us? What did
1:55
Speaker 1: Stanky and Stevenson by and um, what are they able
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Speaker 1: to salvage? Now? Well, well, they bought and thanks for
2:04
Speaker 1: having us on and they bought was Turner Cable Networks
2:07
Speaker 1: and Craig and I would always say to you the
2:09
Speaker 1: businesses at Turner with TVs and t N T, well,
2:13
Speaker 1: the well the most at risks from Netflix, right, those
2:16
Speaker 1: are entertainment networks, a lot of repeat content that was
2:20
Speaker 1: easily replaced by on demand spot. So Turner got a
2:24
Speaker 1: lot worse more quickly. And then HBO. You know, I
2:28
Speaker 1: don't blame them on HBO. They've done the right thing,
2:31
Speaker 1: but HBO really never aggressively expanded into the engine non
2:36
Speaker 1: US markets. So the guys that A T T had
2:39
Speaker 1: to basically reinvestigate in HBO change the way the company
2:44
Speaker 1: went to market. UM. So to me, it really comes
2:47
Speaker 1: down to the basic cable bundle and also time warners. Really,
2:52
Speaker 1: I would say starving of HBO to get the to
2:56
Speaker 1: get the asset in the competitive position. And now that's
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Speaker 1: what they're doing, but it's gonna be expensive, by the way,
3:02
Speaker 1: I was including Direct TV and that as well. Exactly
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Speaker 1: they bought direct TV for sixty seven billion dollars two
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Speaker 1: years earlier, UM, and they just sold that for about
3:12
Speaker 1: fifteen or eighteen. Yeah, just an extraordinary you know, the
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Speaker 1: value destruction there from this management team. Uh, Michael, can
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Speaker 1: the new company really compete against Netflix and Disney. Can
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Speaker 1: they be a global leader? You know, I think they can. Um,
3:29
Speaker 1: I think they'll be three or four global companies. HBO's
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Speaker 1: content is as good as anyone's. UM. The weakness they've
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Speaker 1: had is is not being able to move into international markets.
3:41
Speaker 1: That's going to change. Who they've had is the under
3:44
Speaker 1: the inability to invest in. Now they're investing. So I
3:47
Speaker 1: don't think it's crazy. I don't think it's crazy. They
3:49
Speaker 1: could be a top three global aspot powerhouse. I really
3:52
Speaker 1: do believe that. And then what about the telecom Yeah? Sorry,
3:57
Speaker 1: question is is that a good business or not? Like
4:00
Speaker 1: you know, our debates with us over the years have been, well,
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Speaker 1: they could be a top three company, but what's the
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Speaker 1: cash flow profile in that spot? It's a lower cast
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Speaker 1: sharing business, right, just not as attractive as a business
4:11
Speaker 1: as they want had. So that was gonna be my
4:14
Speaker 1: second part of the answer. The media business they once had,
4:18
Speaker 1: you mean, yeah, like where they're moving from is not
4:22
Speaker 1: going to be you know, where they're going is not
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Speaker 1: as good as where they start. Their problem. I wonder
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Speaker 1: about the telecom business because investors are voting the shares
4:29
Speaker 1: up today, and I guess that's because what they're going
4:32
Speaker 1: to have more money to spend. In the five G rollout,
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Speaker 1: they're gonna be able to pay down some of their
4:37
Speaker 1: monstrous pile of debt. Um. You know, why, why do
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Speaker 1: you think the market likes this? You know? UM? I
4:45
Speaker 1: think partly the market likes because it likes it because
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Speaker 1: they're getting back a sexy asset, assuming that the shareholders
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Speaker 1: directly get back shares in the new CO or the
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Speaker 1: new discovery. But you do have to scratch your head
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Speaker 1: a little bit because you know, remember before this, a
5:02
Speaker 1: T and T was a company that paid a six
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Speaker 1: point seven percent dividend yield and had a growth kicker
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Speaker 1: in HBO or HBO Max. Now it's going to be
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Speaker 1: a company that has about a four and a half
5:14
Speaker 1: percent dividend yield and doesn't have a growth kicker. The
5:17
Speaker 1: business stub that's left behind in wireless and wire line.
5:21
Speaker 1: Let's remember that that is a business with negative service
5:24
Speaker 1: revenue growth and falling IBADA. So it's not exactly like
5:27
Speaker 1: you're getting a growth company. You're just getting a declining
5:29
Speaker 1: company that now has a much lower dividend yield. I'm
5:32
Speaker 1: not sure that's going to work for investors as they
5:35
Speaker 1: sort of go through all the mad Craig, do you
5:38
Speaker 1: expect a T and T. I mean it's got to
5:40
Speaker 1: be really gunshot here, given what's happened over the last
5:43
Speaker 1: several years. Is their strategy just to hunker down with
5:45
Speaker 1: the assets that they have? Do you think they don't
5:48
Speaker 1: have any choice? Um? They they have no money, right,
5:51
Speaker 1: I mean they're levered at four times IBADA and and
5:55
Speaker 1: the rating agencies have said the downgrade threshold is three seven.
5:58
Speaker 1: So um, so they're hanging on for dear life. And
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Speaker 1: and while this will help them pay down forty three
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Speaker 1: billion dollars of debt, um, it will also offload cash
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Speaker 1: flows that supported more than forty three billion dollars of debt.
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Speaker 1: So this doesn't help them delever at all. What about
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Speaker 1: the discovery Uh, the discovery side discovery? What's right? That's right? Yeah?
6:24
Speaker 1: What are they going to be able to do? I
6:26
Speaker 1: mean they they to me, it looks like they come
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Speaker 1: here with an inferior like who cares about Home and
6:31
Speaker 1: Garden TV? You're getting hbo Um, what is thats not
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Speaker 1: going to be able to do with this business? Well,
6:39
Speaker 1: it's funny you say that because that is a point
6:42
Speaker 1: of view of h G, t V and food of
6:44
Speaker 1: a coastal, a coastal elite. You know. I've always had
6:47
Speaker 1: that point of view too. It's like, who's watching those networks,
6:50
Speaker 1: But they're watched by a ton of young women or
6:54
Speaker 1: women in this country. So what Jobs is going to
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Speaker 1: try to do is protect his basic cable network businesses
7:01
Speaker 1: and create, you know, an alternative bundle with TBS, T
7:05
Speaker 1: and T CNN or all those discovery channels. Right, So
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Speaker 1: that's one thing, and he's gonna try to create an
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Speaker 1: add on bundle with Hrio Max. Think what Disney has
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Speaker 1: done with Hulu, ESPN and Disney plus, same kind of idea.
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Speaker 1: Assets are not the same, but I think the idea
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Speaker 1: is like we can replicate parts of the bundle with
7:24
Speaker 1: our own mini bundles. Here. Very interesting and I'm I'm
7:27
Speaker 1: so glad that Paul got you guys to come in
7:30
Speaker 1: today because it's a come on today, I should say,
7:33
Speaker 1: not in obviously, but because it's such a fascinating discussion,
7:36
Speaker 1: because you are the experts from whom we really can
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Speaker 1: learn all of this um stuff. Pleasure having you on
7:44
Speaker 1: the program. Thanks very much, Michael Nathanson and Craig Moffatt
7:47
Speaker 1: founding partners at Moffatt Nathanson on the A T and
7:50
Speaker 1: T Discovery merger. Hate the word merger. It's always one
7:55
Speaker 1: buying the other. This is Bloomberg. Let's get over to
8:03
Speaker 1: Aaron Callenberg right now, CEO of the Wild Alaskan Company,
8:06
Speaker 1: as we talk about E. S G and UM. As
8:10
Speaker 1: so many people have seen the Netscape movie documentary c
8:13
Speaker 1: spirc Um. You gotta wonder about um wild caught fish.
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Speaker 1: It's delicious, it's the best obviously, but um is it sustainable?
8:24
Speaker 1: Aaron Callenberg, as I said, joins us, Um, how do
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Speaker 1: you make that sustainable? Aaron? You know, wherever we see UM,
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Speaker 1: big industrial fishing it it always just seems to decimate
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Speaker 1: the ecosystem. Yeah, happy day everybody. This is Aaron. Um.
8:41
Speaker 1: Just a little background wild last and you know we
8:43
Speaker 1: are a monthly seafood membership service. We should curated box
8:47
Speaker 1: of wildcot seafood, sustainable seafood to members across the country. Um,
8:52
Speaker 1: you know, and the sustainability UM topic, you know, especially
8:57
Speaker 1: around you know, the documentary you mentioned is one that's
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Speaker 1: near and dear to my heart and the Callenberg family. UM,
9:05
Speaker 1: you know you how do you do? How do you
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Speaker 1: do it air and sustainably. I mean, um, you know,
9:10
Speaker 1: you know it's obviously it's it's the best for eating
9:13
Speaker 1: and I want fish, crabs, prawn, that's wild caught salmon especially,
9:18
Speaker 1: but I'm worried about the ecosystem. Yeah. The way you
9:23
Speaker 1: do it is you do it the way Alaska has
9:24
Speaker 1: done it with a constitutional mandate that was written into
9:28
Speaker 1: the state constitution that mandates the sustainable yield. You do
9:32
Speaker 1: that with the subsequent enforcement of that mandate across the
9:36
Speaker 1: entire industry. Um. The thing about Alaska, it's the largest
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Speaker 1: um sustainably managed fishery in the world. It's quite different
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Speaker 1: than the rest of the world. And in fact, um
9:49
Speaker 1: notably absent from the documentary that you mentioned, there was
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Speaker 1: any mention of Alaska or sustainable management practices, the governance,
9:56
Speaker 1: the enforcement, and the culture. Um. The re in the
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Speaker 1: Alaska wrote that into their constitution is prior to statehood,
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Speaker 1: the fisheries were essentially being mismanaged, um, you know, by
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Speaker 1: the federal management and the state of Alaska understood that
10:12
Speaker 1: in order to maintain or increase the economic viabilities of
10:16
Speaker 1: the fisheries, they needed to protect the fish. If you
10:18
Speaker 1: take care of the fish official take care of you economically.
10:21
Speaker 1: So they put in the strongest standards for sustainable fisheries
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Speaker 1: management and they're now are what considered the global gold
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Speaker 1: standard for sustainable fisheries management. UM. And so, you know,
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Speaker 1: contrary to popular belief, Alaska is not estimating the environment
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Speaker 1: or the fish populations. And there's plenty of evidence to
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Speaker 1: suggest that if global fisheries were to adopt these practices,
10:43
Speaker 1: which are codified into law in Alaska, you have a
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Speaker 1: quite different global fishery. Aaron talked to us about how
10:49
Speaker 1: your business changed during the pandemic. It seems like we
10:52
Speaker 1: hear from a lot of retailers that their online sales
10:56
Speaker 1: went through the roof and we're seeing boxes on everybody's doorstep.
10:59
Speaker 1: How did you impact your business? Yeah, there's no doubt,
11:03
Speaker 1: you know, as a pandemic has been a global tragedy,
11:05
Speaker 1: but for a while to lask and um, you know, specifically,
11:09
Speaker 1: there's no doubt. You know, our business has increased by
11:12
Speaker 1: five acts. You know. UM, we're seeing it on two fronts.
11:15
Speaker 1: We're seeing consumer demand for uh, you know, healthy eating,
11:19
Speaker 1: you know, especially in the post pandemic increase. But in addition,
11:22
Speaker 1: you know, so many other e commerce companies actually had
11:24
Speaker 1: supplied to chain disruptions, you know, importing um, you know,
11:29
Speaker 1: food from outside the United States. One of the great
11:31
Speaker 1: things about Wild Alaskan is we're a fully US based
11:34
Speaker 1: supply chain, so we didn't have those disruptions, so we
11:36
Speaker 1: were able to actually continue disservice the domestic market. UM.
11:41
Speaker 1: And you know that in addition to that, the man
11:43
Speaker 1: allowed us to really pull ahead. Aaron, thanks so much
11:46
Speaker 1: for joining us. UM, super cool business idea there. I
11:51
Speaker 1: think it's like a hundred and thirty hours a month
11:53
Speaker 1: and then you get fresh caught, sustainably caught probably the
11:57
Speaker 1: most important part, but I'm sure also incredibly juicy and
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Speaker 1: delicious fish, crabs, prawn, et cetera. And Wild Alaskan company.
12:04
Speaker 1: Aaron Callenberg is the CEO and talking to us about
12:08
Speaker 1: you know why how they do it in Alaska, Paul
12:11
Speaker 1: is different from um, how you see it in other
12:15
Speaker 1: parts of the world. Yeah, I didn't know that that
12:17
Speaker 1: it was, you know, codified into that state law. But
12:20
Speaker 1: you know that's a really interesting aspect to their business.
12:24
Speaker 1: Absolutely and and important, right because especially if you spend
12:27
Speaker 1: any time on the see UM, you want these cultures
12:31
Speaker 1: to thrive. This is Bloomberg. Now let's bring in Greg Han.
12:37
Speaker 1: He is president and chief investment officer Winthrop Capital Management.
12:41
Speaker 1: They have almost three billion dollars in assets under management,
12:46
Speaker 1: and Greg, I want to first get your um, your
12:50
Speaker 1: your concerns for this market. I mean, we have heard
12:53
Speaker 1: a lot of inflation concerns over the last few days.
12:56
Speaker 1: Then we saw this you know, bitcoin thing blow up again.
12:59
Speaker 1: It looks like maybe deflation concerns, at least deflation of
13:03
Speaker 1: the speculative bubble. UM maybe first, first and foremost, front
13:09
Speaker 1: and center here. How do you look at it? So
13:12
Speaker 1: our base case for the economy right now is that
13:15
Speaker 1: the vaccine will be effective in controlling the spread of
13:18
Speaker 1: the virus, the economy will reopen, we'll see the accelerated growth.
13:22
Speaker 1: We still believe that that's the case. It's not a
13:24
Speaker 1: straight line up, UM, and we're seeing that the labor
13:28
Speaker 1: markets causing a little bit of UM anxiousness. UM. Cp
13:32
Speaker 1: I obviously is the is headline news. With inflation picking up.
13:36
Speaker 1: This actually is a scenario that the FED wants. The
13:39
Speaker 1: FED was looking for accelerated growth and increased inflation. So
13:43
Speaker 1: now we've got it. The question is whether it's going
13:45
Speaker 1: to be sustained inflation or whether this is just a
13:47
Speaker 1: short term hiccup. But right now, I think the real
13:49
Speaker 1: concern is navigating the structural issues that we're dealing with
13:52
Speaker 1: in the capital markets. All right, Greg, So assuming that
13:56
Speaker 1: this inflation is more transitory than perhaps more longer term
14:01
Speaker 1: and problematic, what are some of the sectors that you
14:04
Speaker 1: guys are looking at right now? So the dance dance
14:10
Speaker 1: with the girl that brought you right to the to
14:11
Speaker 1: the dance, and that's the tech stuff. The large cap
14:15
Speaker 1: tech is Microsoft, Alphabet. Um we we still like those,
14:20
Speaker 1: and I think there's a catalyst behind it is there's
14:22
Speaker 1: these are heavy cash and so there's catalysts for stock
14:25
Speaker 1: buy backs and increased dividends. UM plus we like the fundamentals. UM.
14:30
Speaker 1: On the Chinese side, we still like ten Cent in
14:33
Speaker 1: Ali Baba. Ten Cent we think is just a hidden
14:36
Speaker 1: gem in this market. And UM we still like the financials,
14:39
Speaker 1: but I'm hesitating a little bit. We have a steep
14:41
Speaker 1: Pheel curve. You're gonna see stock buybacks on the financials
14:43
Speaker 1: including JP, Morgan, Bank America, and Goldman UM. But that
14:49
Speaker 1: that has some legs to it. It's not the same
14:50
Speaker 1: kind of growth that we're going to see in the
14:51
Speaker 1: large cap tech though, So you really see large cap
14:55
Speaker 1: tech then coming back with a vengeance from the lull
14:58
Speaker 1: that we've seen in the end of the second half. Yeah,
15:02
Speaker 1: these are great and the first half sorry. These are
15:05
Speaker 1: great business models, these huge margins, and these they have
15:09
Speaker 1: global reach. So all the noise around antitrust and and that,
15:12
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's legitimate, but it's noise. These we
15:16
Speaker 1: we we think that these are companies are sophisticated enough
15:20
Speaker 1: to move through it. Um and some of the products
15:22
Speaker 1: that are coming out Microsoft Products Suite is amazing. Um,
15:25
Speaker 1: there's there's there's still room for growth here. Alright, Greg,
15:29
Speaker 1: we saw on some of those tech names. Um, you know,
15:32
Speaker 1: the companies report generally really really strong numbers. Get the
15:36
Speaker 1: stock didn't react and you know, cause a lot of
15:38
Speaker 1: investors to say, oh, is this tech trade? Is this
15:41
Speaker 1: growth story trade over? Is Is it really a cyclical
15:45
Speaker 1: driven maybe even a small cap market? How did you
15:47
Speaker 1: view earnings in the stocks responses? So we separate we
15:52
Speaker 1: kind of have to separate the text based into two
15:55
Speaker 1: different categories. There's large cap and then there's small cap,
15:58
Speaker 1: and that whole small cap tech space has got I
16:00
Speaker 1: mean it's it's over valued, it's there's valuation is the
16:02
Speaker 1: biggest issue in this this whole space. And then when
16:05
Speaker 1: you when you kind of sort through what's going on
16:08
Speaker 1: in the I p O market, you look at what's
16:09
Speaker 1: happening in the recovery basket as as UM COVID affected
16:13
Speaker 1: industries recover there as an alternative, and that's part of
16:17
Speaker 1: what we saw was a shift moving into some of
16:19
Speaker 1: the cyclicals or value oriented parts of the market in
16:22
Speaker 1: away from tech. That the place we're focused. We're not
16:26
Speaker 1: focused in that small cap tech space. We're focused really
16:29
Speaker 1: in in the large cap where you've got sustained business models,
16:33
Speaker 1: and you don't think that the valuations are too high.
16:36
Speaker 1: I mean they're not off the charts. If I look
16:38
Speaker 1: at the NYC Fang Index, but I do see forty
16:41
Speaker 1: five you know UM times earnings look there, there's no
16:47
Speaker 1: question by historic standards they're high. UM. However, studies show
16:51
Speaker 1: that in periods of aggressive monetary and fiscal stimulus we
16:55
Speaker 1: will see extended valuations. Multiples were hanging our ad on
17:00
Speaker 1: at I think there's no other way to look at
17:02
Speaker 1: it other than to say, is is Okay, we've got
17:04
Speaker 1: the stimulus in the market. It's going to support these
17:08
Speaker 1: valuations for the time being. Can these valuations now handle
17:12
Speaker 1: an increase in interest rates? That's I think that's really
17:14
Speaker 1: going to be the question if if we see accelerated inflation,
17:18
Speaker 1: what will happen to the market. You know that this
17:20
Speaker 1: that all makes sense to me. Greg. The The interesting
17:24
Speaker 1: call I think is large cap Chinese tech because it's
17:28
Speaker 1: such an opaque uh yeah, you know universe, right. I mean,
17:33
Speaker 1: you can't see in you don't know what the Communist
17:35
Speaker 1: Party is going to do, and that's a little bit riskier.
17:39
Speaker 1: It is there's authoritarian capitalism against Western capitalism. And this
17:43
Speaker 1: is a much longer conversation. I won't weigh it down here,
17:46
Speaker 1: but these are companies that do have um audited financial statements.
17:50
Speaker 1: They do comply with international standards for audits. The issue though,
17:54
Speaker 1: is they won't let auditors in to actually examine the books.
17:58
Speaker 1: That's really what I think. The The issue for the
18:00
Speaker 1: exchanges are for Chinese stocks trade in the United States.
18:03
Speaker 1: But that's why Hong Kong is so important to China
18:05
Speaker 1: in our opinion, and we see um the big banks
18:09
Speaker 1: still acted their golden sacks. Overnight there was a story
18:12
Speaker 1: hiring three people in China and Hong Kong, the biggest
18:15
Speaker 1: ever hiring spree for the big investment bank there. Um. Greg,
18:20
Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us. Really fascinating to get
18:22
Speaker 1: your insight, and especially as we see these these markets
18:25
Speaker 1: bounce around like this. Greg Han as President and Chief
18:28
Speaker 1: investment officer at Winthrop Capital Management talking to us about
18:32
Speaker 1: their um sticking with a large cap tech stocks, the
18:38
Speaker 1: fang stock, so to speak, but also interested um still
18:41
Speaker 1: in large cap Chinese tech holdings including ten Cent and
18:44
Speaker 1: Ali Baba, as well as the financials as the yield curve,
18:48
Speaker 1: steep yield curve is helpful to them. This is Bloomberg.
18:56
Speaker 1: Now let's get over too marked outing. I told you
18:58
Speaker 1: we're gonna have the CEE i Oh at Blue Bay
19:00
Speaker 1: Asset Management join us. He is here to talk about
19:04
Speaker 1: his outlook for I guess mark. Inflation is probably the
19:09
Speaker 1: biggest front and center concern for investors right now, whether
19:13
Speaker 1: you're worried that it's going to come on quickly or
19:15
Speaker 1: whether you're worried about a popping of the speculative speculative bubble. Um,
19:23
Speaker 1: where do you stand on the inflation concern. Well, good morning,
19:28
Speaker 1: so thanks for the question. I guess I'd firmly be
19:31
Speaker 1: in the camp that markets are being rather complacent around
19:35
Speaker 1: the nature of inflation here. Obviously, the narrative from the
19:38
Speaker 1: FED has been that inflation is going to be transitory,
19:42
Speaker 1: but the reality is the next month's cp I is
19:46
Speaker 1: likely to be up again as further base effects flop out.
19:49
Speaker 1: We've got a negative from May twenty that will drop out.
19:52
Speaker 1: The data to here is so inflation will go up
19:55
Speaker 1: again next month, and so I think the inflation signals
19:58
Speaker 1: will continue to flash red for a WHI wouldn't surprise
20:01
Speaker 1: me if the market's complacency around the transitory narrative ends
20:06
Speaker 1: up being tested, and certainly from my perspective, I reckon
20:10
Speaker 1: that you'll end up seeing inflation and this year closer
20:13
Speaker 1: to three more than two percent, which is considerably more
20:16
Speaker 1: than the Fed is callegi discounting. All right, Mark, let's
20:20
Speaker 1: look within the fixed income markets. One of the areas
20:23
Speaker 1: or just investing in general. One of the areas of
20:25
Speaker 1: real growth is e s G investing environmental social governance,
20:29
Speaker 1: and I've heard that term a lot. We hear it
20:31
Speaker 1: a lot in the equity markets. On the fixed income markets,
20:34
Speaker 1: I guess we're starting to hear more about green bonds.
20:36
Speaker 1: Is that something that factors into your portfolio? Yeah, so,
20:41
Speaker 1: I think we're all hearing a lot more about E
20:43
Speaker 1: s G. And the reason for that, frankly, is our
20:45
Speaker 1: clients really care. They care about E s G outcomes
20:49
Speaker 1: as stewards of financial assets um and ultimately, I think
20:55
Speaker 1: we're seeing increasingly that those issues that deliver better E
20:58
Speaker 1: s G performance do end up delivering better investment performance.
21:03
Speaker 1: Certainly in the credit world, if you're a better E
21:06
Speaker 1: s G performer, you end up being a bit more
21:09
Speaker 1: credit worthy ultimately. Speaking that said, on the on the
21:13
Speaker 1: question of green bonds, I think the the this is
21:16
Speaker 1: a bit of a double edged sword actually when we
21:18
Speaker 1: speak about green bonds, because green bonds certainly have got
21:21
Speaker 1: a place where the issuance which occurs wouldn't otherwise have
21:25
Speaker 1: come about if those green bonds weren't issued. But a
21:28
Speaker 1: lot of the time, what we're actually starting to see
21:31
Speaker 1: is a lot of issuers just cashing in on a
21:33
Speaker 1: trend by tapping into an area where there's hot demand
21:38
Speaker 1: to get a cheaper financing cost, where actually the bonds
21:41
Speaker 1: that they're issuing aren't necessarily changing the actions of the issuers.
21:46
Speaker 1: A lot of the the projects that are being sort
21:50
Speaker 1: of finance would have gone ahead anyway, So actually the
21:53
Speaker 1: green bond issuant isn't making such a difference. So I
21:56
Speaker 1: think for us at Blue Bay, we we would be
21:59
Speaker 1: saying that the reality of E s G is a
22:02
Speaker 1: fixed income invest It's not really about green bombs. It's
22:05
Speaker 1: really about taking an active approach to E s G analysis,
22:09
Speaker 1: integrating s G considerations into your portfolios, and actually engaging
22:15
Speaker 1: with issuers to try and really drive s G outcomes
22:19
Speaker 1: and the bend issue of behavior. You know, speaking of
22:22
Speaker 1: game changers, you've got the E s G theme over
22:25
Speaker 1: the last few years that has been so prevalent. I
22:28
Speaker 1: think the other one has to be cryptocurrency, digital finance.
22:34
Speaker 1: Of course it's seen in a darker light. How do
22:36
Speaker 1: you look at um, you know, we just had the
22:40
Speaker 1: European Investment Bank issuing digital bonds on a theoryum. I
22:43
Speaker 1: mean that's going to tell you that it's pretty mainstream now,
22:46
Speaker 1: but people still are concerned in a risk from a
22:50
Speaker 1: risk perspective when they look at it. Yeah, look, look
22:54
Speaker 1: it's it's been a source of interest to all of us,
22:56
Speaker 1: isn't it. I think that ultimately we would say that
22:59
Speaker 1: blockchain is it's awesome technology. But I do think a
23:02
Speaker 1: lot of the crypto that can't exist today it isn't
23:05
Speaker 1: really an asset class that investors should be trying to
23:10
Speaker 1: allocate too much capital to. I think, frankly, the reality
23:14
Speaker 1: is that a lot of the capital can't be tied
23:16
Speaker 1: up in crypto is there for one reason only, and
23:19
Speaker 1: that's financial speculation. It's really about the fear of missing
23:23
Speaker 1: out and the desire to try and make further strong
23:26
Speaker 1: speculative gains by chasing these coin prices higher. But I
23:31
Speaker 1: think that as we we almost I was pleased to
23:34
Speaker 1: see that must change his tune last week. What we
23:37
Speaker 1: are starting to see, though, is increasing concern from a
23:40
Speaker 1: lot of investors that actually, if you drive up coin prices,
23:43
Speaker 1: it's actually bad for the planet. Um, if you end
23:46
Speaker 1: up encouraging bitcoin mining and that's driving up electricity to consumption,
23:51
Speaker 1: it's not a great thing. So it's a bit ironic
23:54
Speaker 1: that some of the the the kids of today who
23:57
Speaker 1: care about the planet the most actually engaging behavior that's
24:01
Speaker 1: actually doing some environmental home. But for me, I think
24:05
Speaker 1: that we can speak about Toto being mainstream, but I
24:09
Speaker 1: just don't get it for now, all right, Mark, thanks
24:12
Speaker 1: so much for joining us and sharing your thoughts there
24:14
Speaker 1: on fix Income, on crypto, and on E s G investing,
24:17
Speaker 1: market Doubting Chief investment Officer blue By Asset Management. Thanks
24:22
Speaker 1: for listening to the Bloomberg Markets podcast. You can subscribe
24:25
Speaker 1: and listen to interviews at Apple Podcasts or whatever podcast
24:29
Speaker 1: platform you prefer. I'm Matt Miller. I'm on Twitter at
24:32
Speaker 1: Matt Miller three. On Fall Sweeney, I'm on Twitter at
24:36
Speaker 1: pt Sweeney before the podcast. You can always catch us
24:39
Speaker 1: worldwide at Bloomberg Radio