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"Redactions Speak Louder." · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America, I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Tommy Vitor.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Jon Lovett is still on vacation.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Still finding himself.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: He's still.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: We shouldn't scold other vacations because he who scolds the first.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Gets the last fake. Yeah, I was just gone for
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: the Thursday pod.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, right.
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: It's just been a while without Lovett. That's all.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: It's just poor Dan. Well, Dan actually killed it. Dan
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: was out there doing basically three separate parts, different interviews
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: with Melissa, actually being smart on legal matters, which we
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: will not replicate today.
• 0:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: We're going to go full dumb.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: No, full dumb. Here we go. On today's show. Donald
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: Trump and his pals threaten riots in the streets if
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: the GOP frontrunner is charged with a crime. New York's
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: newest congressman, Pat Ryan, joins to talk about what Democrats
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: can learn from his surprise victory in last week's special election.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: And Republican politicians are outraged that Joe Biden is helping
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: people with student debt. Outraged. But first, if you haven't
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: tuned into Another Russia yet, now is your chance to
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: hear Janna recount the night of her father's assassination and
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: reflect on what her father's legacy means. for Present Day Russia.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: This is a fantastic podcast from Crooked Media, Another Russia.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: And Ben Rhodes.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Ben Rhodes, part of it as well. The final episode
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: of Another Russia is out now, and you can binge
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: all six episodes wherever you get your podcasts.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: Binge away.
• 1:36
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Let's get to the news, Tommy. So Republicans have long
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: hoped that this midterm would be a referendum on Joe Biden,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: but Donald Trump's potential crimes keep getting in the way.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's very busy.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: On Friday... On Friday, the Justice Department unsealed the 32-page
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: affidavit that persuaded a judge to approve the FBI search
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: of Mar-a-Lago. More than half of the document remained redacted,
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: so we didn't get to see all the good stuff.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: But here's what we now know. 184 classified documents that
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: Trump voluntarily returned back in January contained some of the
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: government's most highly classified secrets and could have jeopardized human
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: intelligence sources if they fell into the wrong category. This
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: is what the government believed. This is what they said
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: in the affidavit to get the search warrant. The government
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: after that then obtained evidence that Trump was withholding additional
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: classified documents and made multiple attempts to get them back
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: before concluding in the affidavit that DOJ had, quote, probable
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: cause to believe that evidence of obstruction will be found
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: at Mar-a-Lago. So the documents the government received in January.
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: What is the evidence of obstruction? Is it the tapes?
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: Is it Trump just like giving the Heisman to a
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: bunch of FBI guys trying to get in a basement?
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: Well, it's a great question. The things we don't know
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: is they recovered a bunch of surveillance footage. So they
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: have that.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: And they want more, I think.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: They've interviewed a whole bunch of witnesses who they're trying
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: to protect the identities of. So they've got witness testimony.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: There's surveillance footage. Who knows what kind of physical evidence
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: they have. But they clearly had enough to persuade a
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: judge that there was enough cause for a search.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: You just go to your cousin's tacky wedding in Mar-a-Lago
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: and you end up being a witness in this FBI investigation. Yeah.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: Who do you think? Who are the witnesses?
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: Some poor caterers.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: God damn it.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: I was looking for ketchup.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: So the documents that they got back in January, the
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: first tranche. had quite a few classified markings that I
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: know you're familiar with.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: Some tranches.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: Can you walk us through some of them and explain
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: a little bit more about the government's concern about human
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: intelligence sources? What does that mean?
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: So the part of the affidavit that caught my eye
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: was as follows. Quote, 25 documents marked as top secret. Further,
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: the FBI agents observed markings reflecting the following compartments slash
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: dissemination controls. HCS, FISA, ORCON, no foreign and SI. Several
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: of the documents also contained... Nerd. What appears to be F.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: POTUS's notes.
• 3:59
  Speaker 5: I just.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: Oh, my God.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: This took me back in time. I haven't heard someone
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: say Oricon in so long. It tickled my little.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: Tommy and Ben would just throw around acronyms like that
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: in the White House all the time, and none of
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: us would know what the fuck they.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: Were talking about.
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: We all.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: Our favorite little intelligence products. Mine was the DID, the
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: Defense Intel Digest, because I have, like, little cool maps
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: and photos of, like, Chinese missiles and shit. Something you
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: subscribe to? Yeah, no, I literally did. It came to
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: my little cubby in the Situation Room.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: Cool, cool.
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: So.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: No foreign means you can't share the information with foreign governments.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: That might seem sort of like confusing and it doesn't
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: need to be said to people, but we have partnerships
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: with close allies where we share intel. The Five Eyes
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: is the notable one, which is the us, the UK, Australia, Canada,
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: New Zealand. Orcon means the originator of the document has
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: to okay it before you can share it. So it's
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: a way of controlling information that's very close hold. Here's
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: one where my eyes really perked up. FISA.
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: FISA.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: It's a reference to information derived from surveillance, the FISA courts,
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: the surveillance of spies in the U.S.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: It's pretty secret.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: Very sensitive. Yeah, because you're something to do with Americans.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's very sensitive stuff. SI is a reference
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: to SCI or sensitive compartmented information, which is information or
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: programs that are so sensitive that you just don't get
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: access to them because you have a clearance. You have
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: to get read into them on a need-to-know basis. Those
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: are the most closely held secrets.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: And that's like, so you have top secret clearance and
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: you still... might not get rid into those programs because
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: they're basically a need-to-know basis.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's sort of the deal with most intelligence.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Like your top-secret clearance, your TSSCI clearance is table stakes,
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: gets you in the door, but someone important has to
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: decide you have a need to know a certain amount
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: of information.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: For example, I had top-secret clearance. and people decided that
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: I needed to know nothing. The entire five years I
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: was in government.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: Well, listen, and I think that worked out well for everybody.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: Because I was just the speech writer, so why would
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: you tell me anything? I'm not going to put it
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: in the speech.
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's kind of hard, right? Well, yeah, Ben and I,
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: we worked at that sort of intersection of communications and
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: NSC stuff, and then you start something, it's like, how
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: do I know that?
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: You needed to know what you couldn't say.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: You need to know what not to say. And then finally,
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: HCS is information derived from spies, clandestine sources. So people
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: we have working in foreign countries often And that is
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: arguably the most important information because if they get exposed,
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: you don't just lose access to that information going forward,
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: but those people could be killed. And so the HCS,
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: the human derived information I usually saw tended to fudge
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: the origin as much as possible. It would be like
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: a source with direct access or a source with indirect
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: access to so-and-so said the following. But like when you're
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: the president, You get all the detail you want or
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: don't want, right? Because you kind of, and think about it,
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: like you want to know, okay, but really how good
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: is this source with quote unquote direct access? Is this
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: some random schlub that we're paying off? Is this someone really,
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: you know, dedicated to the American cause?
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: If this is going to lead me to make some
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: national security decision that's life or death, I want to
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: know what the source is.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: I want to know how good the source is. The
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: really sensitive stuff does not get written down on a
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: piece of paper. It gets briefed to you orally. And
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: if he's like jotting down notes in the PDV, that's
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: not good.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: Now, does he seem like much of a note taker?
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, in general, no. As a general matter,
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: you're right, John. But it did note that he had
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: taken notes, which made me wonder.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, I do think this is all important because,
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: you know, Republicans and others will ultimately try to downplay
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: this as like, You saw fucking Mick Mulvaney tweeting about this,
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: CBS commentator Mick Mulvaney. He's like, this is all a
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: bunch of papers and documents. But Donald Trump brings highly
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: classified secrets to his beach house, leaves them around with
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: very little security. And people find them, foreign spies, other
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: people that shouldn't have them. That could jeopardize people's lives forever.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: That could jeopardize our national security.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: It's also just, we have rules. You can't do that.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's that, but he doesn't care about the rules.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: But it really, I mean, it feels like, you know, foreign,
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: this kind of classified information in the wrong hands could
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: jeopardize national security.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: I thought there was a chance that there would be
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: a bunch of documents marked confidential or secret level, which
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: are things you cannot take with you to your beach
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: house and, you know, put underneath your club sandwich or
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: whatever it is he does, but is less likely to
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: be really, really sensitive. When you start getting into, like,
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: some of the The acronyms I mentioned earlier, that's when
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: it's very worrisome that this was just sitting around.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: And it seems like the director of national intelligence, Avril Haines,
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: said they're conducting a national security assessment now, the intelligence agency,
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: so they can figure out how much damage Trump may
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: have caused by leaving state secrets around.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they've forgotten to the wrong hands. Did you see
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: Don Jr. 's defense of his father on Instagram?
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: I did, Tommy.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: They're really focused on the redactions issue. And Don Jr.,
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: in sort of typical dad, father, son stuff, posted a
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: photo of his dad where he redacted sort of the
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: genitalia region.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: But like an extra big version.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: In sort of an exaggerated way. Because he wanted.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: To compliment his dad.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: Don Jr. logs on Instagram in the morning and he's like,
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: what can I post about my dad's dick? That's what
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: I'm going to do today.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: And I have to make sure that it's complimentary because
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: Eric's out there and who knows what he's going to do.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: I'm in my mid-40s.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: I need the hugs.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: I'm going to post an Instagram about my father's genitalia.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: That is the weirdest thing. It's so weird. Their family's
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: so weird. It's really fucking weird. Anyway.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: I do think, so there's obviously the mishandling of all
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: this information. And by the way, you know, the whole
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: like I declassified things. We've been saying this for a
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: couple episodes now that like, That doesn't really matter. But
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: of course, again, in the affidavit, we realize that like
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: the classification, the laws that Trump may have broken here
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: do not rely on the classification status of these documents.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: You know, it's obstruction. of justice. I mean, the poor
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: people at the FBI and the National Archives spent over
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: a year trying to get this stuff back. Just give
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: us the papers back, man. Everything would have gone away.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: Well, it's also clear that the FBI came to suspect
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: that Trump and his team were hiding the fact that
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: he still had more classified documents in Mar-a-Lago. So that's
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: the other big piece of this that we don't know yet.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: but that clearly led to the search, which is they're like,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: they think that he was lying to them. They didn't
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: just think he forgot. They didn't just think he had
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: some extra ones laying around. They have reason to believe
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: that he was lying and purposely withholding classified info from them.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: And Trump also hung out, hung his poor lawyer, not poor,
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: his idiot lawyer out to dry and had her sign
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: a document to the FBI saying he'd returned all the
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: classified information when he had not. I wouldn't want to
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: be in her shoes.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: The Washington Post also reported that Trump often took boxes
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: filled with classified documents with him on foreign trips. Is
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: that best practices? Is that a safe way to handle
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: classified info?
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, probably not in a box. Look, again, I
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: don't want to fetishize classified information or act like it's...
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: But presidents can read classified information on foreign trips, but
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: there are specialized times and places and processes to do it, right?
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: Because imagine we would go with Obama on a 10-day
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: trip to Asia. It's not like Terrorism goes away during
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: that time.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: It's got to reclassify.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: You got to get the PDB. But so, I mean,
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: you remember this, John, like you would be in a
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: hotel with the president and the national security staff would
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: set up a room or suite of rooms for this purpose.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: The computers there would be hooked up to some, you know,
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: secure satellite link. They would literally put up those blue
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: puff tents.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: What are those?
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: So in case there's spy cameras in the walls, there
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: would be those weird sound machines playing creepy stuff so
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: that no one could record what you were doing. In
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: really aggressive countries, I think this is Mike McFaul's book
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: about his time in Russia as ambassador. You basically had
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: to construct like a mini metal submarine for the president
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: in Russia to get his briefing because the Russians were
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: so intense with their spying.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure Trump was following all those briefings. Right.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: But again, it's like that's when you're the president and
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: you're surrounded by people protecting you and the information and
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: you need to access it because you're making policy decisions,
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: not when you're deciding to play.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: He's in his hotel room with these documents, like with fucking,
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: you know, McDonald's grease all over.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: And today it's like, should I play nine or 18?
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: You know, that's the that's the tough call.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: So one thing the government makes clear in the affidavit
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: is that their investigation into Trump's mishandling of classified info
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: is far from over. And the New York Times has
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: a couple sources that said prosecutors working on the investigation
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: are nowhere near making a recommendation to Attorney General Garland
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: about whether Trump should be charged with a crime. As
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: you can imagine, Trump and his goons aren't taking this
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: very well. Trump's been truthing up a storm. A lot
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: of truthing. He truthed that he should be declared the
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: rightful winner of the 2020 election today. Actually, he gave
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: everyone a choice. He said either... Either I should be
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: immediately declared the rightful winner of the 2020 election or
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: we should just have a, we should do it over.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: Just run it back. He's the most annoying guy at
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: the pickup basketball game. He was like, if I was
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: a foul and I win or else I'm taking the
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: ball and leaving.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: So that's what he did today. And then on Sunday night,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: he truthed this Fox News clip of his friend, Lindsey Graham.
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: If there's a prosecution of Donald Trump for mishandling classified
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: information after the Clinton debacle, which you presided over and
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: did a hell of a good job, there'll be riots.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: In the streets. Riots in the streets.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: Sounds so stuffed up.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: Josh Hawley also said this, that there'd be riots in
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: the streets if Trump is arrested. Do you think they're
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: just trying to intentionally scare the Justice Department into dropping
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: the case? How dangerous is this kind of rhetoric?
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: I kind of do. It feels pretty dangerous to me.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: It feels like they really are trying to intimidate DOJ.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: I hope it gets the opposite reaction from the Department
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: of Justice because the whole point is equal justice under
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: the law. Look, Hawley and Graham also desperately, pathetically, satiably
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: desire for Trump and the MAGA base to love them,
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: but they never will. That is true. I kept thinking
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: about Lindsey and his impassioned January 6th. This was January
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: 7th at that point. All I can say is count
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: me out. Enough is enough speech the night after the insurrection.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: But like, you know, this is a guy in 2016
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: who is calling for a special prosecutor to look into
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: Hillary's emails. Again, we don't know if Trump is going
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: to be charged. All we know is that in this instance,
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: because it's Trump, Graham is saying, I don't care what
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: the evidence says. I don't care about all these smoking
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: guns that are in the news or in the affidavit
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: or that have been admitted to. I think that my
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: friend should not be prosecuted. For what reason?
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: No, their argument is that Donald Trump is above the law.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: So he couldn't be charged for doing anything when he
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: was president because he was president, but he also couldn't
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: be impeached. And now that he's not president anymore, he
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: can't be charged with anything because he might be running
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: for president again. So basically, it's like no matter what
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump does, there's always some reason why he shouldn't
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: be charged. And basically, the argument now is that so
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: many people like Donald Trump, that he has so many supporters,
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: that they will get upset and riot and cause violence again.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: If something happens to Donald Trump, so you better let
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: him do whatever the fuck he wants to do, because
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: otherwise there'll be violence in the streets. That's what they're saying.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, also, yeah, yeah, we know there'll be
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: violence in the streets. We watch that. But it's like
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: just attack the FBI office, too. I mean, this is it's.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: beyond irresponsible it's really it's pretty reprehensible well.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: And what does it say to the uh to people
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: who are watching lindsey graham on tv and josh holly
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: and and following donald trump when they say oh there's
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: going to be violence in the streets and there's in
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: comparing the fbi to the gestapo and all this kind
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: of bullshit like it's getting very this is this is
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: how you get you know sort of right-wing violence and
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: we've seen it before with oklahoma city bombing tim mcveigh
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: like this is this is the kind of shit that
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: we're getting again.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Flip side spin zone It's probably keeping Truth Social afloat.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: I heard they're having a tough time.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Apparently, they're in arrears. Fox News broke the oath of
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: a million dollars to some vendor, but I guess he's
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: finally driving people to the platform.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: They're not truth and hard enough?
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: Not truth enough.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: It is sort of interesting that like Trump here is
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: just he's only trying to win the political battle about this.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: And he's not the legal battle is not going well
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: for him at all. Right.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, the New York Times said that Boris Epstein,
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: who's the marble mouthed former surrogate director in the White
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: House for like seven minutes and now Steve Bannon co-hosts.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: is the closest thing to a real lawyer that they have.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: They call them the closest thing to a legal quarter,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: the quarterback, the legal quarterback for the whole team.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: That's your Tom Brady.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: He also, he hired, he found some guy named Jim
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: trustee who he hired to be his lawyer because he
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: saw him on television, which is how he finds all
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: his best.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: It's how Jared found Peter Navarro. He Googled, uh, uh,
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: China bad.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: But they just don't. It's interesting though, because this is
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: the first time where like, Obviously, it matters who wins
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: this political battle. And Trump's certainly doing his best to, like,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: rev up his base here, though I don't think he's
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: doing that well with the rest of the country. But, like,
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: at some point, the legal system could come for him.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: And there's nothing he can do to get out of
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: that by just winning a political argument.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: My concern when I first read about this FBI non-raid,
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: don't say raid to get in big trouble, this first,
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: this very lawful, orderly.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: The visit.
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: Visit.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: If you have a visit. Right, it's a visit.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: Is it check-in?
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Again, they were wearing cargo shorts.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Is it visiting like the way Southern people say or like...
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: How do Southern people say? It's like having dinner. I'll
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: lodge away in later if I'm getting this wrong. Anyway,
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: when the FBI went, I was like, ah, shit, you know,
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: Trump could probably use this and motivate his base to
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: turn out for Republicans in the midterms if he would
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: just kind of make that message turn. But in my mind,
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: I thought, don't worry about that because it's far more
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: likely that he'll use it to... shovel money into his
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: super pack and raise money for himself and just kind
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: of grift off it. And that's kind of what's happened.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: It's he's doing what he always does, which is making
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: it all about himself. And for the people who are
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: his biggest fans, who will always be his biggest fans,
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: they're going to get revved up about it. And I
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: worry less about the political consequences than the actual violence
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: that could come from it. You know, like that, that's
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: a legitimate worry on the political side.
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Maybe he has cemented his grip on uh his his
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: biggest MAGA fans but like he he kind of had
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: that even still maybe you know the people like declaring
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: that he's the nominee David Brooks uh 30 seconds after
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: this happened like I don't know the thing people don't
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: like about Trump is the chaos and the tweeting and
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: the constant controversies and like we'll see how this wears
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: over time I do think as I always have that
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: it is um it is very difficult to be Merrick
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: Garland Right now, because when you actually make the decision,
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: say you make the decision to indict Trump, that is,
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: in all the chaos that comes with that, that's tough.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: But if you don't do it, if you know there
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: is a case to be brought against Trump that would
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: have been brought against other people who committed the same
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: kind of crime, and you don't bring it because you're
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: worried about the political consequences, what does that say to you?
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's a very... It's.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: Also going to get tagged with just a brutal nickname.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: What's that?
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: I don't know. It's coming, though.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: Oh, Trump's going to tag him, Merrick Garland, with a
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: brutal nickname. I mean, it's a lot to work with. Well,
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: sign up for Truth Social. Find it there first. We
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: are like 10 weeks out from the midterms. Do you
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: think Kevin McCarthy and Mitch McConnell had a criminal investigation
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: of their party's 2024 frontrunner on the message calendar for
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: this month? Do you think those guys are psyched?
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: They probably should have. You can't predict a lot of
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: things in politics, but this one, that was an easy bet.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: They are kind of quieting down a little bit, the Republicans.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's nobody on the Sunday shows, right? It was
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: just sort of.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: They're sort of doing it like Roy Blunt was there.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: He was like, yeah, he should have turned the documents
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: over more quickly and whatever. But like, why is this
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: happening now? It's like, well, it's happening now because it
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: took him this long to get the documents.
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: Back.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought Melissa Murray made an interesting and compelling
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: point that there was this long back and forth between
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: DOJ and the Trump team. And basically the FBI kind
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: of went and retrieved the documents in a calm and
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: lawful manner at the last kind of moment they thought
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: was reasonable given their guidelines about not taking major actions
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: before an election. And so we might not hear any
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: more from them for a while.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: But I was listening to that too. And I, there's
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: always a timeline problem, right? Because there's the, she's right.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: There's the timeline for the election problem. So like, say
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: if you're Trump, the midterms happen, you announce immediately after
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: the midterms and now DOJ is thinking, well, now he's
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: a presidential candidate.
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: They can't fake that.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: Like my, I heard her say that and I was like, ah, yes,
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: that is worrisome. But also you are morons if you
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: let that impact your decisions. Because as Dan noted, everyone
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: would run for president.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: Great way to get out of jail. I just want
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: to give Merrick and the crew.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: No, you can't touch me. I'm running for president. Nope. Sorry, officer.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: I am running for president. I am a leading contender
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: of my party for my party's nomination. I can do
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: whatever I please. Thank you very much. Yeah, no, I
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: don't think it's great for them. I think some of
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: the president's biggest cheerleaders have gone a little bit quiet.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: So I don't know if it's going to be the
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: base rallying. boon that people thought it was. We'll see.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: We'll try. I mean, look, it's nonstop. It's a grievance factory.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: You know, we're just constantly banging out widgets of grievance.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: And so we'll see how long this one lasts. I
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: don't know.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: I do think, as Dan has said, too, that like
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: the more the party appears to voters like all therefore
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: is defending Donald Trump, the less that's going to win
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: new people over.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, we just like.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: People have all kinds of problems. Like, look, when the
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: party was like, we're going to make this about inflation,
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: we're going to make this about the problems that people
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: are worried about and how Joe Biden hasn't fixed them.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: That's one thing. When the party's like, we're going to
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: make this election about defending Donald Trump. And by the way,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: if you give us power, we're going to impeach Joe Biden.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: That's vote Republican. We'll drag you through an impeachment and
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: we'll do whatever it takes to defend Donald Trump. That's
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: what Republicans give you.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, meanwhile, Democrats are shoving $ 380 billion in climate
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: change spending through Congress and they're not defending it. Talking
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: about this stuff.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: We're going to talk more about that later in terms
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: of the student debt relief. But when we come back,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: we will talk to the newest congressman from the state
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: of New York who just won a special election last week,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: Pat Ryan. Joining us now is the newest congressman from
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: the state of New York who last week won a
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: special election in a swing district that previously voted for
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump. Pat Ryan, welcome to the pod.
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: Guys, thank you for having me. I can't actually believe
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: I'm on this show. It's really an honor.
• 22:38
  Speaker 5: Who, us?
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you've fallen that far. You didn't even think you'd
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: have to do this, stoop to this level.
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: There were some dark moments. There were some dark moments
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: in late 2016 and early 2017, and you guys were
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: a ray of hope.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: Oh, God. That is kind of you to say. So
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: you weren't supposed to win this race. You were outspent
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: three to one. The DCCC didn't spend any money at all.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: District that Biden won by less than two points in 2020.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: I saw that even you and your advisors were surprised
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: you won. How'd you do it? What do you think
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: happened now that you've looked back at the last couple
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: of weeks?
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: Well, I think there was like the surprise of the
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: moment that it actually happened, but at a broader level,
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: I actually, I think we saw this building at least
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: for the last few weeks of what was a very
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: short campaign. It was only about three months. I mean,
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: what we really just tried to do is be clear
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: and unequivocal and say, here are a set of what
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: I think are broadly shared American values, and we're going
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: to stand up. We're going to ask people to stand
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: with us and really orienting the threats to fundamental rights
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: and freedoms under a larger umbrella of a unifying idea
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: that Americans still very much believe in and want to
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: fight for freedom. And I think a lot of it, too,
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: is just we are at a moment where folks are
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: needing to see the fight in us, like to say
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: this is what we believe on a personal level. It's
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: what we believe as a collective. It's what we believe
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: as a country. And we're going to stand up and
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: actually really go all in on that and not poll
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: test it, not pull our punches, not triangulate, but just
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: actually own that and be authentic.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: Are you related to Paul Ryan? Dan Pfeiffer wanted me
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: to ask.
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: There's still like a lot of people that, that sub
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: in Paul and Pat and it really hurts my soul
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: every time, every time I hear it. Tim Ryan, you know,
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: I would, I would much, much more proudly claim Tim Ryan,
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: but I'm not related to.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: Either of them. Well, yeah, but Paul really sullied the
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: Ryan brand because you guys were riding high with Jack
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: Ryan for a while, right? It was like a whole
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: cool vibe going on and this schmuck comes in and,
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: you know, it's just kind of gut entitlement programs.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: A better Ryan in Congress is what we have now.
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: We, um, my wife would not allow me to put
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: Jack at the top of our two boys name list.
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: I tried everything I could, every trick I had. Um,
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: I grew up reading Tom Clancy novels. So that tells
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: you how huge of a nerd I am, but, um,
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: we got to bring that back.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: They're great novels. Um, Back to the race, now that
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: we clarified that for Dan. Again, that was for Dan only.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: A lot of pollsters and a lot of organizers all
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: around the country have noticed this seismic shift since the
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: Dobbs decision and voters coming out focused on abortion rights.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: Did your team feel that as well? And if so,
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: how does that manifest on a campaign like yours? Is
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: it more volunteers, money, something else?
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: So what was really interesting is the whole special election
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: almost coincided exactly with the Dobbs decision, the leaked Dobbs
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: decision came out right at the same time that then Congressman,
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: now Lieutenant Governor Antonio Delgado was making that sort of
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: move and the special election was on the horizon. And
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: so a few days after the leaked decision, I was
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: at a whole bunch of rallies and protests across the community,
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: across the district in response to the leak. And just
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: like the outrage, the anger, the frustration, the disappointment. I mean,
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: there were people, a lot of people openly bawling and crying.
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: And to me, it was just clear immediately that this
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: hit in a much deeper, more foundational level on rights
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: and freedoms that folks had worked really hard to secure
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: that meant so much to so many people, and also
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: portended further grabs at other rights as telegraphed by Justice
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: Thomas's opinion. So we immediately oriented around that and it
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: resulted in incredible volunteer numbers, grassroots financial support. I know
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: people might make fun of this, but we couldn't keep
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: yard signs in our office, which in a kind of
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: like unexpected off-cycle special election mattered, I think, a lot
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: to get people energized. And now when we saw that,
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: in the democratic turnout numbers and on election night. Um,
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: so I really just think that people were pissed. I mean,
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: people were rightly pissed women, especially men, dads, moms, grandparents,
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: like it just struck a deeper level. And I think
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: the ground has certainly the political ground and the moral
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: ground has shifted in the country.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: Republicans are saying, you know, you only won because it
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: was a closed primary, which in New York is historically
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: meant that Democrats usually turn out at much higher rates
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: than Republicans or independents who can't vote in party primaries.
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: How much of that is just their bullshit spin? And
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: how much are you what's what's your take on that?
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: I think there's a lot of bullshit spin from Republicans
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: right now. I think that you look at what happened
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: over the course of the final few weeks of this campaign.
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: They were in pure panic mode. I mean, they started
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: the campaign with the tired Biden inflation hits and all
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: that stuff. That was clearly not working. They weren't seeing
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: them move the needle. Then they dusted off the racist, nasty,
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: you're against public safety. You marched with Black Lives Matter,
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: tired attack. That didn't land. By the end of the campaign,
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: my opponent who pretended to be a moderate was attached
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: at the hip to Elise Stefanik almost every single day
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: with her and appearing on Newsmax and Breitbart. I mean,
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: it was, it was bad and, and, and none of
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: it worked. Yeah. None of it worked too. So, I mean,
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: I think at the end of the day, the other
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: thing when you zoom out is like, we really gave
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: people something to be for, to fight for, to rally behind.
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: And there was just nothing on the other side of that.
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: It was a bunch of negativity and cynicism and, And
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: I think this is really a hopeful, optimistic point where
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: for me, the idea that not every American was directly
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: affected maybe by the decision, but I think people are
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: smart enough and attuned enough and thoughtful enough to get
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: that this affects their whole community and people they love.
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: And they said, that's not who we are as a
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: country and we're going to stand up.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: It also feels like the most urgent and powerful example
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: of Republican extremism on a host of other issues, right?
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: Like how much did you sort of connect it to
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: the party becoming extreme on a bunch of things that
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: people really care about?
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: That's, I think, a really important takeaway here. We certainly,
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: and I think rightly centered abortion rights, Roe being ripped away.
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: But we put it under this broader umbrella of threats
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: to freedoms, threats to democracy, Of course, remembering it feels
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: so long ago, but the Dobbs decision was only 24
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: hours after another seismic Supreme Court decision, putting more deadly
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: guns on the streets, combined with January 6, combined with
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: the case on dismantling the EPA. I mean, the cumulative
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: effect of what's happening can't be underestimated here. And I
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: think that, again, people are smart and they see that
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: The Dobbs decision is representative of this really cynical, divisive,
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: dark grab at rights, and they just rejected it.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: You went to West Point.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: You were a veteran.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: You served in the US Army in Iraq. How many
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: top secret documents are in your basement? It's part one
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: of that. And two, I mean, seriously, we're a year
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: after the US withdrawal from Afghanistan. We're like two decades plus.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: after the quote-unquote war on terror began after the 9-11 attacks.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: Just curious how you reflect on that time, the decisions made,
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: things that went well and didn't, and how that might
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: inform the choices you make and the votes you take
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: as a member of Congress.
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: I mean, part of the question is we cannot turn
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: our eyes away from the fact that a fundamental breach
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: of public trust was conducted by the former president I mean,
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: I had a top secret SCI clearance. I was an
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: intel officer. It's almost just like all my friends that
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: were innocent. Yeah, it's like you could just not even
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: imagine doing that. I mean, it's just so beyond the pale.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: Would you be court-martialed if you had this shit in
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: your house?
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: You would be court-martialed. I would be in jail. 100%
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: I would be in jail. And it's just not even
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: a question. And it just so much more broadly represents...
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: a disdain and a disrespect for trust and accountability. And
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: I think reminding people of that, like this is a
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: sacred trust when you have a security clearance. These are
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: national secrets, as you all know. And to break that
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: trust and then not accept the accountability for that, it
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: just goes again against, I think, things we can all
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: agree on. And yeah, I mean, the second part of
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: your question is really personal and deep for me, where
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: Like a big part of the reason that I'm seeking
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: or sought, I guess, and I'm still setting in that
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: we've had the outcome we have here. Federal offices, I
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: was on the receiving end for 27 months in Iraq,
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: a really bad foreign policy, like the decision to go
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: and the deception and dishonesty around that, the conduct itself.
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: And I felt that in deeply personal ways that still
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: very much stick with me. And then you look at
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: what's happening in the world right now, continued rise of nationalism,
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: continued growing inequality, Russia, China's growing muscle flexing. I mean,
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: it's a really scary time, especially to be a dad.
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: Like I have two young boys. I am like legit
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: worried that they could be fighting in a major war
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: if we don't come up with a more thoughtful, nuanced strategy.
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: that understands history, that understands the limits of the use
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: of military force, and just is re-centered in sort of
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: foundational values that I think we've lost our way on
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: a little bit.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: So last week, Joe Biden announced a big student debt
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: relief plan. Most Democrats have praised it, though some candidates
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: in tough races like Tim Ryan, who you're not related to,
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: have criticized it for not helping people without college degrees.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: What do you make of that criticism? And what do
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: you think about Biden's plan?
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: I think it's desperately needed. I think any relief for
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: folks that have this tremendous weight on their shoulders is huge.
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: It shows that we care. It shows that we're listening
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: to people. And it's liberating for those under that weight.
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: And then it's also, I think, empowering to think about
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: what it could mean looking ahead a generation out. I
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: still always try to remind people of the impact of
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: the GI Bill post-World War II for my grandpa's generation,
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: what that built for our economy as sort of the
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: core of the middle class. So I think it's a
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: hugely important thing and I applaud it. In terms of
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: the criticism, I mean, I think it's disappointing. I mean,
• 34:39
  Speaker 4: I think the idea that just because we can't help everybody,
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: we shouldn't help anybody, it goes against who we are
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: as Americans. I think the idea that You know, I've
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: got mine, and so you shouldn't have yours goes against
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: who we are as Americans. And it's another cynical attempt,
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: I think, to divide folks when, in fact, we all
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: know a lot of people. There's 43 million people that
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: are going to get this relief. We all are one
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: degree of separation at most, maybe two from someone impacted
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: by this. So just reminding people of that and personalizing it,
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: I think, is really important.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: No one trusts polls anymore.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: Except for dude, guys named Nate with blue checks on Twitter. Um,
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: so we're all looking at special elections. We're looking at
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: people like you, we're looking at the referendum in Kansas
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: and right now you are, you are an Oracle, you know, everything.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: So I'm curious what your advice would be to all
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: the people that did DCCC or the DSCC about how
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: you capitalize on this moment and when, uh, in these midterms,
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: cause we obviously know how important they are.
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: I mean, I've, I, number one, you got to come
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: out with a lot of humility. All campaigns, the job,
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: serving in office. I mean, that's what's also lacking in
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: our politics right now, I think. But I mean, one
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: of the upsides of this being an unexpected special election
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: with very little time is like, we just said what
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: we believed. I mean, we just genuinely stood up and said,
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: here are values that we think are really important that
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: are actually unifying the idea of freedom and choice. and
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: that when those are under threat, we're going to stand up,
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: not just for ourselves, but for others. And we didn't
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: have time really to do all the typical watering down
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: and diluting and adding the pablum that comes. And that's
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: also just not how I want to operate regardless of
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: the time that we have. You got to hire guys
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: like us.
• 36:38
  Speaker 5: Don't start now.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: You have too much time between now and November. You
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: got another race to run.
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: I mean, the good news is we really don't have
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: to and we won't change our message. We won't change
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: the intensity. I think the importance of showing a fight
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: and a backbone is not to be underestimated. In our
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: politics right now, I just think people are so, so
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: distrustful of the people telling them what they want to hear.
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: And it's almost like jarring for people to say, yeah,
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: we're not going to agree on everything. That is... kind
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: of what it's about. And that's okay, but I'm going
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: to say this with conviction. I'm going to say it
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: with deep love for this country. I mean, that's what's, again,
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: reminding people that we can have those disagreements, at least
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: about some of the policy ideas. But when we cross
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: certain thresholds and sort of guardrails of democracy, it then
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: becomes an actual patriotic duty to stand up and rise
• 37:41
  Speaker 4: above the current partisan framing.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, running scared never seems to actually work. No.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: We're very bad at that. Us Democrats.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: Well, especially, and like you said, people have so little
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: faith in government and politics right now that I do
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: think it's very appealing when someone comes up and says, actually,
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: this is what I believe. And if you're with me,
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: that's great. And if you're not, that's okay. But this
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: is what I believe.
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah. And look, we're going to listen. We're going to
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: represent everybody and do the work.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: But absolutely.
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think, yeah, I just think that's kind
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: of the moment that we're at, I'm, I'm, I am
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: genuinely encouraged for our country right now. Like, I really
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: think that people, I'm really proud that people like, I
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: think people see what's happening. I think they see the,
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: the recent poll a week or two ago that threats
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: to democracy is now the number one issue. I think
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: it was an NBC poll really resonated with me. That's
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: kind of what I felt on the ground and that
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: people are linking the, the, the, attack really coordinate attack
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: on reproductive rights as part of a larger threat to
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: to core freedoms and and rights and um it's not
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: going to happen overnight but i think there's sort of
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: a reawakening of our responsibility on to a higher set
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: or maybe actually a deeper set of.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: Values congressman ryan your optimism is infectious yeah really i'm
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: gonna i'm gonna keep it with me now next time
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: i look at polls or go through twitter i'm gonna
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: remember this interview can't be my normal self now. Um,
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: thank you so much for, uh, for coming on the
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: pod and, and, and sharing some wisdom from your race and, uh,
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: and good luck, uh, good luck in November.
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: Thank you guys really appreciate you having me on and
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: everything that you do.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: All right, before we go, we should talk about the
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: political fallout over, uh, Joe Biden's decision to help millions
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: of low and middle income people who are struggling with
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: federal student loan debt in case any of you missed it.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: The Department of Education will now forgive $ 10, 000 of debt
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: for individuals making under $ 125, 000 and households making under $ 250, 000.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: They'll forgive $ 20, 000 of debt for federal Pell Grant recipients,
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: nearly all of whom come from families with incomes of $ 60, 000
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: or less. And going forward, and this is a big
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: part of the plan too, they'll cap monthly payments for
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: undergraduate loans at 5%. of a borrower's income. So you're
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: not gonna pay any more than 5% of your income
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: every month on your student loans. And that's about half
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: the rate that most people pay right now. Biden's move
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: was praised by most Democrats, criticized by a few center
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: left economists, and met with outrage by most Republicans. Here's
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: a sample.
• 40:36
  Speaker 6: If you are that slacker barista who wasted seven years
• 40:41
  Speaker 6: in college studying completely useless things, now has loans and
• 40:45
  Speaker 6: can't get a job, Joe Biden just gave you 20 grand. Like,
• 40:50
  Speaker 6: holy cow, 20 grand. That, you know, maybe you weren't
• 40:53
  Speaker 6: going to vote in November and suddenly you just got
• 40:55
  Speaker 6: 20 grand. And, you know, if you can, you know,
• 40:57
  Speaker 6: get off the bong for a minute and head down
• 40:59
  Speaker 6: to the voting station.
• 41:00
  Speaker 5: Taxpayers all over the country, taxpayers that never took out
• 41:03
  Speaker 5: a student loan, taxpayers that pay their bills and, you know,
• 41:08
  Speaker 5: maybe even never went to college or just hardworking people,
• 41:11
  Speaker 5: they shouldn't have to pay off the great big student
• 41:14
  Speaker 5: loan debt for some college student that piled up massive
• 41:17
  Speaker 5: debt going to some Ivy League school. That's not fair.
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: I owed over $ 100, 000 in student loans. The day I
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: got elected to the Senate, I had over $ 100, 000 still
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: in student loans that I was able to pay off
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: because I wrote a book. And from that money, I
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: was able to pay it. If not, I would never,
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: I'd still be paying.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: Tommy, what do you make of all that Republican whining?
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: Aside from, God, Ted Cruz's voice in my ears. Just
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: give me a It's just heinous.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: No, I think Marco Rubio is making a good point there.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: The appropriate way to pay off your loans is you
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: get elected to the U.S. Senate. You barely show up
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: for work. You do like a funny thing with a
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: water bottle on TV and you just humiliate yourself. Then
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: you run for president and you hire a ghostwriter. And
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: then you pay off your loans based on purely hype
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: and bulk purchases from conservative organizations.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: I think that's the right way to do it. $ 174, 000
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: a year. That is what we pay. And then because
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: of his profile, he got to write a book that
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: helped him pay off his student loans. Yeah, that is
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: a path you can follow.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: Do you think that Ted Cruz thinks like Animal House
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: and PCU and... Do you think those are documentaries? It's
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: the most lame cliche of college. We take edibles, Ted. Also... Okay, bong. Again,
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: in the late 90s.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: But also, can we just.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: Okay. We went through this whole Hillary Clinton deplorable thing,
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: the Barack Obama attacking people clinging to their guns and religions.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: The contempt for voters. For people who work at coffee shops.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: Baristas work really hard.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: Open contempt now from Ted Cruz for people who serve
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: coffee to other people.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: Honestly, if you work at a Starbucks and you see
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: Ted Cruz in there, please let him know.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: Imagine if a Democratic politician was sitting there attacking a
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: construction worker. It's just unthinkable.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: Also, was that MTG? Was that the other one?
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Marjorie Taylor Greene, just one of many Republicans who
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: criticized this, who themselves enjoyed a PPP loan during the
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: pandemic that was then forgiven.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Also, she wants to make this about Ivy League schools. 0.3%
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: of federal student loan borrowers went to Ivy League schools.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: So that's for you counting at home. I mean, 99.7%
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: of these loans will not go to Ivy League students.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: So again, they're just like, they're trying to manufacture this
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: grievance between college educated and non-college educated voters. But again,
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: not to take these people seriously because we shouldn't, but
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: not every government program helps everyone equally. Like, in fact,
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: most of them don't, right? Medicare, Medicaid, PPP loans. There
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: will almost undoubtedly be people who never went to college
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: because they didn't want to take on a ton of debt.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: who see this decision and think, that's unfair. I'm angry
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: about this. And you know what? That's a totally valid
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: feeling to have, just as it's valid if you're frustrated
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: that Biden didn't do more. But like, this is like
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: manufactured outrage, just nonsense.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: I was gonna say, there are, I think, some fair
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: criticisms that I happen to disagree with about this decision
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: that we can get to in a second. But these
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: fucking Republicans... These are people whose only economic policy is
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: to cut taxes for people who are insanely rich. CEOs
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: and bankers and oil company executives and insurance executives, they
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: had spent their entire lives fighting against a higher minimum
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: wage and healthcare and retirement and all these benefits. They
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: literally just voted against a law that would stop rich
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: people from cheating on their taxes and And stop like
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: multi-billion dollar corporations from paying nothing in taxes. Nothing. And
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: so they just decided to vote to protect to make
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: sure that like Amazon doesn't have to pay any taxes
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: at all. But they're all upset that like someone making $ 50, 000
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: or $ 60, 000 a year gets $ 10, 000 of debt forgiven. When
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: they tried to go to the mat to make sure
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: that fucking Amazon doesn't have to pay any money in
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: income taxes. Come on.
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: You guys can't see it because it's a podcast. But
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: halfway through his answer, you can tell that Marco Rubio
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: realizes he made an oopsie and he said something very
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: stupid because, again, most people can't get elected to the
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: Senate and then hire a ghostwriter to sell a book
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: based purely on hype and then not match any expectations
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: for your political future that anyone may have had.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: It is so incredibly out of touch. It's just so
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: incredibly out of touch. Now, what do you think about
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: some of the criticism from some center left economists who
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: have argued that This will make inflation worse.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's hard to know how to adjudicate those
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: claims because I'm not smart enough. But, you know, Jason Furman,
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: very smart economist that we worked with in the Obama
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: White House, he has been sort of leading the messaging
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: charge against student debt relief. He's like, you know, on
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: the killing fields of Davos and Bloomberg and CNBC.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: Of course, Twitter.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: Jason's point is basically this is half a trillion dollars
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: worth of spending, which is a big chunk of change. Admittedly, yes.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: And he's worried that relieving the debt could lead to
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: more spending and create between 0.2 and 0.3 percentage point
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: increase in inflation. And then also potentially create bad incentives
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: in the longer term that lead colleges to increase tuition
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: and just convince kids, hey, take as much debt as
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: possible because someday it'll get paid off for you. I
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: don't know if that's right or wrong. There's other economists
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: who disagree. Goldman Sachs thinks that the inflationary impact of
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: debt forgiveness will be offset by other borrowers who have
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: to resume making payments. Because as you recall, during the pandemic,
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: Trump and then Joe Biden put a pause on the
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: repayment of student loans. And now that'll restart again in January.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: Joseph Stiglitz, another economist, wrote a piece for The Atlantic
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: where he says that debt forgiveness will cut inflation. Again,
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: you guys fight it out with your protractors and shit.
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: I don't understand. I'm not smart enough. But Like what
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: we do know is that Biden structured this bill in
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: a way that made it more progressive than we expected
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: it to be by doubling the relief for Pell Grant recipients.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: And again, in 2015, 68% of Pell Grant recipients came
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: from families making $ 30, 000 or less. And the relief is
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: far more likely to go to black and Latino borrowers.
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: And so one other way to think about it is
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: the Pell Grant has lost the majority of its value
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: over time in 1975 or six. the maximum Pell Grant
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: covered 80% of the total cost of college at a
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: four-year public university. Today, that's down to 28%. So, you know,
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: in some ways, he's just restoring parity to what the U.S.
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: government used to do to help low-income people go to college.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: It seems like most economists are agreeing that the inflationary effect,
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: whether they think it slightly increases inflation or slightly decreases inflation,
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: because like you said, the moratorium is going to end
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: at the end of the year, it's going to be
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: minimal either way. And the other reason for that is
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: that it's a benefit that's spread out over a long
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: period of time.
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: It's a decade, yeah.
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: It's a decade, right? So the inflation thing, I think
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: we can put to the side. And also, by the way,
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: Republicans have no plan on inflation, and they just voted
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: against any attempt to lower inflation in this country. And
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: all they want to do is yell about Donald Trump.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: We're all going to live or die based on decisions
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: that OPEC makes and whether the Chinese economy goes into
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: recession and they use less gasoline. So I don't know
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: that we should be worrying so much about student loans
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: nine years from now.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: So the other two criticisms that you brought up that
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: I think are worth talking about is the idea that
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: the cost of college is far too high.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: And we're not going to solve that problem unless we
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: do something about the fact that colleges can continue to
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: raise the price of tuition. This is like the same
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: problem we have in the health care market, right, which
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: is what we tried to fix with the Affordable Care Act,
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: which basically We're like, okay, we can put a bunch
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: of government money into this and subsidize people buying healthcare,
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: but insurance companies can keep just raising prices unless we
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: do something to control the cost. So obviously, a long-term
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: solution about the cost of higher education is doing something
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: about making sure that colleges can bring down costs. So
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: that's number one. Number two, if you had $ 500 billion
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: to spend and you wanted to make sure it helped
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: the broadest number of people possible, there are other ways
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: you could structure a plan so that you help people
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: who didn't get a college degree, who are working class
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: and poor and need the help. But the problem with
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: both of those things that I just said is to
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: fix either of those, the cost of college education or
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: or to develop some plan that's going to help more people,
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: you need Congress. And we don't like, if Republicans in
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: Congress actually cared about helping people, like we could have
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: done something about the cost of education or the cost
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: of healthcare or housing or any of these problems, but
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: they have decided to vote against everything. So all we
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: had was Joe Biden having the power to do this
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: with student debt. And it was going to help a
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: bunch of people, so of course he should take that action.
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's why I think, you know, you were
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: going to mention some of the Democratic responses, I think, next,
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: that have been a bit frustrating.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so Tim Ryan and Catherine Cortez Masto, who are
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: both running, you know, in Nevada and Ohio, two states
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: where the proportion of non-college-educated voters is much higher than
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: some of these other states where there are competitive races.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: For example, in Arizona, which is a competitive race, and Georgia,
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: Mark Kelly and Raphael Warnock praised the plan because there's
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: more college graduates there. There's more people. So, but, but,
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: so yeah, talk, talk about why do you talk about
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: the criticism from, from Masto and, and Tim Ryan?
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's, it's sort of a similar response. I mean, yeah,
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: I want that too. You know what I mean? It's like,
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: I want, I want low income people to help buy
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: every policy by the greatest extent possible. But as members
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: of Congress, Tim Ryan and Cortez Masto should probably know
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: that Congress kind of sucks. And that it's not going
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: to happen. And Biden has this narrow slice of authority, seemingly, hopefully,
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: to cancel student debt. And that obviously won't help everyone,
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: but it'll help student debt holders. And again, not every
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: policy helps everyone equally. So maybe politically that they have
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: data that shows that Biden's move is unpopular in Ohio
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: or Arizona, and they just are sort of messaging against it.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: And I'm going to give them a pass because they're
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: in an election year. But you know, it would be
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: helpful to the broader cause. I think if we all
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: tried to sell this a little more, um, because even
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: if you're an individual who didn't go to college or
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: you already paid back your student loans, you maybe you
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: have a kid or a nephew that has loans and
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: is struggling to pay for them. I think like we
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: all can have a little more empathy in these situations.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: I worry that, you know, that they might've gotten a
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: little too, uh, A little too panicked by sort of
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: the Republican reaction or the center-left economist reaction on this.
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: And I think it's important for us to clarify who
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: the people are who hold student debt. And you talked
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: about some of this, right? Like half of all student
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: loan debtors don't have a four-year degree. Many couldn't finish
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: getting it because the cost of college was just too high.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: So you have a bunch of people who actually don't
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: have a college degree because it was too expensive and
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: they still have a bunch of debt. 16% of borrowers
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: are in default, including nearly a third of senior citizens
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: with debt. If you're a senior citizen who still has
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: college debt, that means the government can garnish your wages
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: or your social security benefits. The idea that the Republicans
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: want to put out there that these are fucking Ivy
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: League college graduates. Also, the percentage of people with student loans,
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: federal student loans, who have MBAs or doctorate degrees or
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: law degrees. It's like 4% or 5%. It's nobody.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, look, Biden made this more progressive than we
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: thought he would by focusing on Pell Grant recipients. And again,
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: 95% of Pell Grant recipients come from families earning $ 60, 000
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: or less. These are not rich kids going to Ivy
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: League schools. These are working class families who needed some help.
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: Who, by the way, were told that if you want
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: a job that pays enough to raise a family, you're
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: going to need a degree. That's what people are told
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: in this country so that when they go do that
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: and they go struggle to try to get that education
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: for themselves and then they're saddled with debt, we're not
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: going to help them when we have the chance? Yeah.
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: America's sort of been telling itself this fiction for a
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: long time that you need a college degree or you
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: need to own a home to fully participate in society
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: and that's become completely unattainable for people.
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I get it. It's not the perfect plan
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: that you would design if you had a function in
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: Congress and you could pass legislation.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: I get that. But that's like the I want a
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: pony response.
• 53:39
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: But that's their response.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: I want a magical wand that creates the perfect policy
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: that helps everyone.
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: But that's what's making me so disappointed with so many
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: smart people.
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: Right. You're a member of Congress.
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: Or you're in a Congress. You're smart enough to know
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: this works. You get what's going on, right?
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden doesn't have a lot of moves here on
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: his own. This is a move that he can make
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: without Congress. And it's going to help a lot of people.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: And he made sure to target it in a way
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: that's not going to help a bunch of rich people.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: You can hide from the grievance politics that Republicans are
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: attempting to play here, or you can, I don't know,
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: try to message it a little better and own the thing.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: I'd like to own the thing.
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: I think that's a great point because what they are
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: trying to do is to pit like college educated voters
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: against non-college educated voters because they know that college educated
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: voters tend to vote more democratic now and non-college educated
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: voters don't. And we shouldn't let them succeed there.
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: You know, and also like there's this weird sort of
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: strain of younger Republican, like the Charlie Kirk TPSA crowd
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: who openly advocates against anyone going for college. Like they
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: see it as a horrible place full of sin where
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: you're taught liberal values. And I don't know, it's very strange.
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: Just a note on the popularity, right? Like, it remains
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: to be seen. You know, all the polls that were
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: taken before this, now that the policy's enacted, you're kind
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: of going to wait to see how it settles. But
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: we had one from over the weekend, the CBS poll,
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: which showed Biden's approval up a little bit. And they
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: polled Biden's plan, and it's 54-46 approval. And support was
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: actually higher among those without a college degree than with
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: a college degree. Weird. Just slightly, but still. So I
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: guess the question is, like, how do Democrats win the
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: messaging war over this over the next couple of months?
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: Do you talk about it a lot in your campaign?
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think you lean into it. You own it.
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: You talk about how this is helping lower income people.
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: And as part of the Democratic policy platform, we're trying
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: to help lower income people. You should talk about the
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: need for systemic reforms that you mentioned earlier to reduce
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: college costs for everybody. And then talk about all the
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: other things you're fighting for. I mean, like, it is
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: also fun. I'm happy that the White House is leaning
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: into calling out Republican hypocrisy on the PPP loans and
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: the members of Congress who got PPP loans and then
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: got them forgiven and are now attacking student loan forgiveness.
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: That's fun.
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: Some good dunking.
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: Some good dunking. You know, very specific, narrow, well-executed.
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: Right from the White House Twitter account.
• 56:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: I'm worried they're going to feel themselves a little bit
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: and be like, This you.
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: Just like start hammering people. They're going to start just
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: tweeting the dark Brandon memes right from the, I guess
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: they've already started doing that. Yeah, they can get you
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: in trouble. I guess Rob Flaherty's already been doing that.
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: No, it's good.
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: It's good.
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: It was great. I mean, Margaret Terry Green, she's an idiot.
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: Look, it's good to see some pep in their step
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: over there in the way.
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, look, pick a fight.
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: Pick a fight. Pick a fight. And I do think
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: that's important as Democrats think about this for the midterms
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: is you talk about, look, this is what we've already done.
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: you send more Democrats back to Congress and we're going
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: to have more reformed education. It's going to help more people. Uh,
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: and we're going to do more for people. Right. And,
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: and the other party doesn't want it.
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: The work is not done.
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: And right.
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: And then for folks who are frustrated that, uh, Joe
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: Biden didn't do more. I mean, I hope the message
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: that everyone takes to themselves, to their friends, to their
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: family is, uh, that's why we need more Democrats so
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: we can do more in the future.
• 56:58
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: And also like, again, 10, 20, 30,000 votes in, uh,
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: in Georgia, Wisconsin, uh, There's millions and millions of people
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: right now who don't have that debt forgiven. But because
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: people showed up and they worked hard and they voted,
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of people whose lives are changed right now.
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: That's a big deal. All right. That's all we got, Tommy. Great.
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: Thanks again to Pat Ryan for joining us. And we'll
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: talk to you on Thursday. Pod Save America is a
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: Crooked Media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: senior producer is Andy Gardner Bernstein. Our producers are Olivia
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: Martinez and Haley Muse. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis sound engineer the show. Thanks
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: to Tanya Sominator, Sandy Gerard, Hallie Kiefer, Ari Schwartz, Andy Taft,
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: and Justine Howe for production support. And to our digital team,
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim, and Amelia Montu. Our
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: episodes are uploaded as videos at youtube.com slash crookedmedia.