Latest / The Shed Organics Show / #45 - The Art of Fermentation | Miles Filipeli [Fermented Plant Extracts]

Transcript

#45 - The Art of Fermentation | Miles Filipeli [Fermented Plant Extracts] · The Shed Organics Show

0:00
Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode
0:02
of the Shed Organic Show. My name is Jordan.
0:06
Today's episode we are back talking all things ferment and
0:11
fermentation. We have the incredible Miles
0:15
Filipelli from Fermented Plant Extracts in Colorado in the US
0:20
now. He is an A regenerative AG
0:23
educator. He does lots of work helping
0:27
people in the community, taking talks and workshops and things
0:30
like this, spreading the knowledge to help people
0:33
understand how they can make their own microbial inoculants,
0:37
they can make their own ferments, and they can use this
0:40
wonderful natural technology that we have out there to our
0:44
best advantage in the garden. Now, Miles is somebody that I've
0:48
followed for quite a few years. I'm a big fan of what him and
0:52
the rest of the team over there are doing in the community
0:55
they're building in Colorado. So it just seemed fitting to
0:58
reach out to Miles to be our first international guest here
1:02
on the show, and I'm so grateful for him and his time and his
1:06
knowledge. So guys, this one's a big one.
1:09
Make sure you get your pen and paper out because there is
1:12
plenty of knowledge in this episode for you.
1:15
So let's do it. Jump straight in.
1:16
Here is Miles Philippelli from Fermented Plant Extracts.
1:37
Ferments are the power of them is their accessibility and This
1:41
is why not only not why I sell them, but why I teach how to
1:46
make them because they are so low tech and the power of their
1:49
versatility and implementation. It's like it's so easy to
1:54
understand how to make them and how to use them and, and how to,
1:59
and it's easy to impart that knowledge like from 1 farmer to
2:01
another. And, and the ability to, to
2:06
break down organic matter and turn it into plant available
2:08
nutrition, whether that's in a compost pile that's assisted by
2:13
the ferments or whether it's in a ferment, that's the microbes
2:16
are making it available. These things are so, so powerful
2:21
in the garden and they're also powerful in the community of
2:26
knowledge sharing open source information.
2:29
So I would, I would put that there.
2:30
The accessibility, which has been a big part of my mission
2:34
with them is is hugely powerful to get everybody connected on
2:38
the same page with it. Yeah, that's something I really
2:40
admire about you, man, is that you are all about teaching the
2:45
other people or teaching everyone that there's no secrets
2:49
to this. It's just this is a natural
2:51
technology, so to speak, that we're tapping into.
2:55
It's not necessarily your IP, my IP, it's just this is how nature
3:01
works. Let's use these techniques to
3:03
harness that and then share that with everybody for a little bit
3:07
more freedom and sovereignty and things like that.
3:09
Is that how you see it? Exactly.
3:12
Precisely. Well said.
3:13
It's a. It's a very enabling.
3:16
I'm always about education and empowerment, sharing how to make
3:18
these how to do it. Yes, it it fits really well with
3:22
the like understanding drives the usage of it like knowing why
3:27
how it works fundamentally in in abstract like helps you
3:32
implement it and do it and like want to use it more because you
3:36
don't understand how it works. Yeah, definitely.
3:38
It it that really does. And from some of the talks and
3:41
things that I've heard you give, I think you posted one recent
3:45
one on Instagram actually, that was really interesting.
3:47
I loved listening to that. You're just going through all of
3:52
the different techniques that people can use and have been
3:55
using for a long, long time, right?
3:58
It goes back to sort of KNF, Korean natural farming, the
4:02
Jeddam techniques. Can you talk to a little bit
4:05
about the different, the different techniques and kind of
4:10
what lives under the world of ferments in that umbrella?
4:16
Sure, well, what's really unique or or to me kind of I don't
4:20
understand why, but the fermented plant extracts as I
4:24
teach and share and as was taught to me by various sources
4:29
that I always share, Eric Lancaster to organics and and
4:33
Gil Karen Dang of the unconventional farmer.
4:37
Both were my like original sources and these the the
4:46
knowledge of them came to me and I share it openly.
4:50
I lost my train of thought. I'm sorry.
4:52
That's OK. Yeah, Yeah, that's OK.
4:53
I'm just like what's under the umbrella in terms of the
4:56
ferments and in that knowledge. Yeah.
4:59
So what's really unusual that that I don't understand is that
5:02
they don't really fall. These ferments don't fall under
5:05
any umbrella of KNF or Jadam or OF how you see natural farming
5:12
as one that was early on or does it's not a biodynamic thing.
5:16
They they really have their own like niche for some reason.
5:21
They and and Korean natural farming and Jeddon both come
5:23
very close with some of their preparations, but none of them
5:27
are this recipe using sugar water, plant matter and
5:32
Lactobacillus as I as I always teach there and as those taught
5:36
to me. So for some reason they they
5:40
they fit into all these cat like you could use them with Jidam,
5:43
you could use them with KNF, you can use them in biodynamics and
5:47
in that and just traditional organics.
5:50
But they they aren't like part of the like Canon or part of the
5:57
like expressed taught parts of KNF or Jidam, right?
6:03
So yeah. Are they, are they using sorry
6:05
to sorry to interrupt, are they using this like a similar
6:08
technique whereby we're using an anaerobic or an aerobic
6:12
fermentation? Is that the idea still?
6:15
Yes. The well, the concept with all
6:17
these things is that we're creating a microbial population
6:22
and giving it a very specific food supply.
6:27
If the case of ferments, we're using Lactobacillus as the
6:30
microbial population and plant matter and a little bit of sugar
6:34
as the food supply. Like in a compost tea, you would
6:37
just use a compost as the inoculate.
6:40
So all the microbes from the compost would be present and
6:43
maybe a little tiny bit of sugar or some kelp or some alfalfa
6:47
meal, something else as a microbial food supply.
6:51
In Jeddam, they used soil similar to like some compost or
6:54
some rich soil or leaf mold as the inoculant.
6:57
So all the microbes present in that rich soil are your
7:01
inoculant and the food supply is a plant matter.
7:06
They don't use any Lactobacillus added or any sugars.
7:10
In the Korean natural farming preps, they do very similar
7:12
things with sugars, extracting nutrition, nutritive properties
7:17
out of wet fruit and wet, not wet, but juicy moisture.
7:22
Yeah, they kind of like throw all the sugar on and let this
7:24
liquid come off, right. And then they're using that and
7:27
they can use the two separately, the fruit, the fruit and the
7:30
liquid. Yeah, they.
7:32
Also use acetic acid microbes like like vinegar microbes to do
7:37
that extraction as well. OK, yes.
7:39
That's right. That's right.
7:40
OK. So all of these things are,
7:44
yeah, basically we're trying to have something that we're taking
7:49
the microbial population from, whether it's the EM1
7:54
Lactobacillus or we've got the soil, compost, whatever.
7:58
And then we've also got the food that helps them multiply in the
8:04
case of a fermented plant extract, right, we've got the
8:07
Lactobacillus. We then use black shrap
8:10
molasses, for example, as the food, but then we've got this
8:14
plant material that we're using to break down and extract the
8:19
nutrients from. Is that right?
8:21
Is that how that process is working in a plant extract?
8:26
Yeah, yeah. That's a good way to put it.
8:27
The nutritive qualities from the plant matter are being imparted
8:31
into the liquid solution by way of microbial digestion.
8:37
Beautiful. So yeah, we're going to be
8:39
inoculant to break down the plant matter.
8:42
Yeah, OK. And I actually recently made
8:46
one. So I was, it's still sitting in
8:50
the bucket outside and I've literally just checked it the
8:54
other day and my homemade gas escape seal was a little a
9:01
little terrible. But for the most part, I have a
9:04
really sweet smelling full bucket of delicious liquid.
9:07
But there's this tiny kind of film layer on the top, which is
9:11
obviously a little bit of oxygen that's gotten into that system.
9:17
Before we talk about maybe the things that can go wrong, what
9:20
to look for in terms of like, you know, dropping pH and things
9:23
like that. When I'm when I'm doing that.
9:27
And when I chose the plants that I wanted to use for this
9:30
extract, I went round the garden and I was looking at some of the
9:34
weed species that were popping up because these are pioneer
9:37
species in the ground that are coming into the soil for a
9:40
reason to provide some sort of benefit to that soil to move it
9:44
along. I was taking some of my diverse
9:46
cover crop that I was using for a bit of diversity, but then I
9:51
was also having a look at whether or not the plant was in
9:54
a vegetative stage or in a flowering and fruiting stage.
9:57
Can you talk to the choice of plants or materials and why we
10:03
might use some of those different materials?
10:08
Sure, the basic rules are something vigorous and fast
10:10
growing, like you want something wrong.
10:13
You don't want to use sickly plants or plants that aren't
10:15
like really prime, so you want to use plants that are like
10:19
vigorous and fast growing in your region or in your garden or
10:24
wherever they they are found. Like Comfrey Nettle?
10:29
Those are great. Yeah.
10:30
And well, OK. And also OK.
10:31
So that's like if you're collecting like in, in terms of
10:34
like plants we know, like there's plants we know about,
10:37
like Willow. We know Willow water is good for
10:40
cloning. So like I made a Willow FPE and
10:43
it's, it works well for treating mothers before you clone them,
10:46
treating clones like so I used a tobacco one as like kind of like
10:53
a pesticidal as like A cause tobacco water is known to kill
10:57
bugs. So you can and, and same way
10:59
nettles and comfrey, like we know these are nutrient dense
11:02
plants, they're used in biodynamics that we know they
11:04
have these awesome properties for plant medicine, for human
11:07
health. So, so they, they obviously are
11:10
going to be good for microbial health because human health is
11:13
our stomachs are also like microbial fermenters in there.
11:17
We have a lot of like some of the same species in our stomachs
11:21
that are found in the soils to tell aid with those breakdowns.
11:25
So the the soil stomach, so to speak, the nutrition nutritive
11:30
cycling process happened in the soil.
11:32
Isn't that foreign to our to our own system.
11:35
So when we know a plant is good for us in a certain way, we can
11:39
also take that plant knowledge, that plant medicine knowledge or
11:43
food knowledge and apply it to microbial action as well.
11:46
So yeah, comfrey and nettles fit into that category.
11:49
Yeah, beautiful. Same with same with plant
11:51
nutrition, like carrots being high in all these good things,
11:56
good for your eyes, all this different.
11:57
Carrots are extremely nutrient dense.
11:59
They have all kinds of good properties.
12:00
They're great for fermenting too.
12:02
And also like makes like so fruit for fruit.
12:08
A carrot is a fruit, but it's also a root.
12:10
So it's going to be good for bulking and making good sized
12:15
fruit and flower on set and all this kind of stuff, but it's
12:19
also going to be good for root development and for young plants
12:22
that need to expand the root systems to expand their leaf
12:26
systems as well. So there's a lot of different
12:28
things you can take into like any kind of knowledge base that
12:32
you have surrounding a plant or a set of plants or plants in the
12:37
garden or plants you have access to or plant matter like
12:40
groceries, spoiling, spoiling food, all kinds of different
12:45
stuff that you can have access to and knowledge about that you
12:48
can like inform your decisions of what to ferment, how to
12:52
ferment it, where, and how to implement those ferments on a
12:55
farm and a garden. Yeah, OK.
12:57
And that makes a lot more sense. Thank you.
12:59
And, and if, say, for example, when you've got, you know,
13:05
you've got your garden, whatever you're going to be using these
13:07
extracts on there, there is something to be said about the
13:12
timing in terms of which one to use when, right?
13:16
Because of say, if we've got a, a plant that's just about to
13:20
produce fruit, we would come in and put some fruit extract on
13:25
there. Or if we want something to
13:26
develop roots like you said, or be trying to develop lots of
13:30
green vigorous vegetative growth, is is there a point to
13:34
picking the right ferment for the right application?
13:40
Yes, on like the connoisseur level, yes.
13:45
Like like if you just want to grow a nice healthy garden and
13:49
you only make one ferment and you throw everything in there.
13:52
If you throw veg material and fruit and plants and everything
13:55
in it and you just make an all-purpose ferment, that's
13:59
going to improve the quality of garden.
14:01
You know that that's going to help you even if you're being
14:03
indiscriminate in the way that you're describing.
14:06
But if you if you already are a gardener and you're doing really
14:09
well and you really want to see like that next level of quality
14:14
that real flavorful the different unique differences
14:18
between different types of tomatoes or different types of
14:21
mints, different varieties of flowers and see the see the
14:26
vibrancy of their uniqueness. That's when you start doing what
14:29
you're talking about is what we call and was taught to me by a
14:32
friend Jace touched by cannabis nutrio periodism.
14:37
And this is about feeding a nutritive, a certain set of
14:42
nutrition based on the plant's needs at its certain growth
14:45
cycle. So like when you have an
14:49
understanding of your target crop, when you've grown the same
14:51
thing over and over and over, and you really understand how
14:54
that crop operates when it's a baby, what it needs, when it's
14:57
a, you know, as a seedling, as a growing vegetative plant.
15:01
And when it starts to put on its flower set and make fruit or
15:05
make vegetables, that's when you, you can identify its
15:09
specific needs at those different times and, and even
15:13
anticipate them a little bit and say, Oh, I know you're about to
15:16
start doing this. So I'm going to start feeding
15:18
you in that way because I know what's coming maybe better than
15:22
the plants are just chugging along.
15:24
But they, they, they know what's about to happen.
15:26
We all know what's about. To happen.
15:27
Yeah, that's right. And like, you know, I talk about
15:31
having a good battery of soil in terms of and I think you know,
15:35
Jeremy shares a very similar thing at build soil, just having
15:38
a bigger volume of soil that is somewhat of a buffet that can
15:42
provide all of the things micro really and plant nutrient
15:47
availability wise to the plant when it needs it.
15:50
So for example, when like our citrus is just going into fruit
15:55
at the moment and a lot of the time we know that that means we
16:00
need more potassium or we need more phosphorus, for example,
16:04
for this flower and fruit set. So coming in with these fruit
16:09
ferments or for example, are they higher in those nutrients
16:13
of phosphorus, potassium that are going to impact that?
16:17
Or is it just more like, you know, that's the microbial
16:22
population Or I suppose it's not the microbial population because
16:24
that's all the same if you're using EM1 for the same thing,
16:27
but it's the nutrients contained in the liquid would be higher in
16:32
certain instances in certain like phosphorus, potassium, for
16:36
example. Have I made that clear if I
16:37
confuse you? No, I totally get it.
16:40
And you're talking about you're asking about like how what that
16:43
by what function is that happening?
16:45
Yeah, of like the nutrio periodism is, is it like
16:49
nutritive NPK or it is, I think depending on the fruit or the OR
16:55
the flowers or the depending on what you're fermenting, if what
16:59
you're fermenting is high in cause some fruit aren't high in
17:01
potassium. And.
17:03
Nitrate, but some are so if you're fermenting something
17:05
that's higher in those and sometimes like like if you burn
17:09
something, the ashes of it are change the the nutritive
17:12
qualities of things and you can ferment the ash and there's all
17:16
kinds of different ways to like inform again, inform yourself
17:18
about the not only your target crop, but what you're
17:21
fermenting. And that's another thing is if
17:23
you then this is a this is a concept in Jeddam.
17:26
If you are growing sweet potatoes like and you have a
17:30
bunch of sweet potato crop residue for like say last year
17:33
or slips you didn't plant like fermenting, feeding a plant.
17:38
It's the healthy version of itself, like plant cannibalism,
17:42
so to speak, is of like almost a surefire way of providing the
17:47
nutrition that's necessary to the target crop.
17:52
But I OK, so that's the that's the nutritive side of it.
17:56
The other side of it is a little bit like pre scientific.
18:00
Like there's, there's an an information exchange.
18:03
And I talk about this sometimes where like anytime you exchange
18:07
energy, like which nutrition is energy, you're also exchanging
18:11
information. Like anytime there's an
18:14
inflammation exchange, there's also an energy exchange.
18:17
And anytime there's an energy exchange, there's an information
18:19
exchange. So, and we don't really
18:21
fundamentally understand how this happens in all cases with
18:24
plants, but there are compounds that ferments produce that are
18:30
known to like be plant communicators.
18:36
I just posted about a study about this not long ago.
18:38
Like the compounds are called lactones and they come from lack
18:42
of utilotes and they, yeah, they, they do, they serve some
18:45
function to like communicating the microbial population and the
18:50
root zone. And this is a, this is another
18:53
way that the ferments can can can contribute in that neutral
18:57
periodistic way to to communicate with the plants,
19:01
usher in the next stage of growth before the plants are
19:04
like to kind of prepare the plants for ripening or prepare
19:08
them for like explosive vegetative growth or heavy.
19:15
That makes a lot of sense. It's like we're biohacking the
19:19
plant world, almost knowing what's what's happening, and
19:23
we're kind of just like giving it the best case scenario when
19:27
it's there. In a lot of my talks and
19:30
workshops, I try and get people to understand the concept of
19:34
observing what happens out in nature and how we can utilize
19:38
those processes in the garden. For example, in a forest floor
19:43
situation, you have a big mulch layer that comes from the
19:46
dropping of organic matter, fruits, insects, blah, blah,
19:50
blah. Creating this mulch layer where
19:53
the roots are coming up, the microbes, worms all taking it
19:55
down, breaking it down and some in some cases fermenting it
20:00
right and bringing it down into the soil, turning it into
20:04
available nutrients and creating that cycle and often.
20:08
The tree itself or the plant itself, what it drops is then
20:13
going to be the best nutrition being worked into the soil for
20:17
that that plant again, right. So that goes off what you were
20:20
saying with the choosing the healthiest version of itself.
20:24
It's sort of self perpetuating, self feeding itself.
20:30
Do you do you find that that's kind of what we're tapping into.
20:34
We're sort of taking what's actually already happening in
20:38
that mulch layer where it's being broken down and the
20:40
microbial populations are being stimulated.
20:42
We're sort of taking that, doing it separately and then adding it
20:46
back in and just volume, right? Yeah.
20:49
Well, we're both doing it separately and encouraging it to
20:53
happen at in, in that multilayer of our target crop as well.
20:58
Because like ultimately, like the, the main goal of growing
21:03
natural organic is to create that active decomposition
21:08
happening right at the feeder root surface layer.
21:13
That's why we mulch. That's why we do cover crop chop
21:15
and drop. That's why, you know, people mix
21:18
their amendments into compost before laying them down so that
21:22
we're and the ferments, when you add Lactobacillus, when you add
21:26
ferment plant extracts to that mulch layer, that surface,
21:30
you're like encouraging the lactose to breakdown that mulch
21:34
layer and apply the nutrition directly to the, to the, to the
21:38
feeder roots at the surface of the soil.
21:41
So yeah, that you're, we're definitely creating A and we're
21:45
doing bio mimicry in so many different ways.
21:48
It's in our fermenting vessel and encouraging it to happen at
21:52
the root zone of our crops. Yeah, beautiful.
21:54
That makes a lot of sense. Well, that's really, really
21:57
good. Let's go back to my first
22:01
attempt at a proper ferment of a fermented plant extract, right.
22:05
What do you think has happened with my terrible airlock device
22:10
on the top, which was literally just a hose and some duct tape
22:15
that I was that I put into a little milk bottle on the side.
22:18
But was there a little bit of oxygen exposure there?
22:22
Obviously, we're trying to keep it mostly anaerobic using the
22:25
EM1, the Lactobacillus, which I got from Cam, obviously at
22:29
Organic Ferments, the the legend over there.
22:31
So he sent me some of that. So shout out to him.
22:35
But yeah, what, what do you think's going on there?
22:38
How do I tell whether it's still good and what am I expecting to
22:41
see if it has gone right? Like you're always going to have
22:46
some oxygen in the headroom of your vessel.
22:49
OK. So you know, like, like it
22:54
doesn't sound as if there's a failure there.
22:57
It just sounds like a little bit of contamination.
23:00
And generally when I like strain these things off, I drain them
23:05
from the bottom. So I, I'm like emptying from the
23:08
bottom, not the top. So I don't, if you're emptying
23:10
from the top, you have to like scoop down through that pellicle
23:13
layer. And what's happening there is
23:15
that there's a some people mistake it for a scobie, but
23:19
it's it's a pellicle, which is basically like the Lactobacillus
23:22
is almost creating like the rind on a cheese, almost like where
23:25
it's like a barrier between the oxygenated air head headspace in
23:31
the vessel and the anaerobic fermentation happening in the
23:35
liquid. So yeah, it's just like a
23:38
barrier. And if it's if it's like not
23:41
like crazy colors, if it's white, you're good.
23:46
If it's like white and bubbly looking, that's almost like what
23:48
they're supposed to look like even under perfectly airlocked
23:52
conditions, right? Going to get it's when you get
23:55
like Gray, brown, green, red, yellow, black molds growing on
24:02
top of that pellicle layer. That's when you're like, oh,
24:06
something got in here, something crazy extra got in here.
24:10
But honestly, like I mean that doesn't happen to my batches
24:14
like my commercial batches, but I've seen it on batches where
24:18
like we strained off the bottom and checked it and everything
24:22
and it looked fine. It was like the the the liquid
24:25
inside it was just that the pellicle had formed and then
24:30
contamination happened and stuff started growing on top of the
24:32
pellicle, but the fermentation inside the liquid was still
24:36
fine. Yeah, I feel as if that that
24:39
matches a little bit better. I've got the tap on the bottom
24:42
because I was, I do a lot of bukashi composting, so I've
24:46
repurposed one of these buckets, scrubbed it out and used that.
24:49
So I got the tap on it, which is really cool.
24:52
Hey guys, really quickly jumping in.
24:54
I just want to remind you, if you are not subscribed to this
24:57
show, that is the number one thing that you can do to show me
25:00
your support. So if you're finding value from
25:02
this conversation and you're deeply engaged, I would love you
25:05
to hit the follow or subscribe button.
25:07
All right, back to the show. I've heard you talk about this
25:10
black sort of ring or circle that goes around the outside.
25:13
If it's gone bad, is that something to look out for as
25:16
well? It is it's, it's not super
25:19
common. It's, it's, it's like it happens
25:21
in storage or like if the food supply really is like just done
25:28
and, and it gets contaminated from the outside and it's like,
25:32
it's basically like a colony collapse of your Lactobacillus
25:34
and something else moves in on them.
25:36
And. Right.
25:37
Yeah, yeah. It's, I've not, I've honestly
25:40
not even seen it on my products in years at this point.
25:43
Oh, that's good. And I don't, I don't get many
25:46
people like showing me that. Like when people have problems
25:51
with their ferments and they send me a picture or something,
25:53
it's like very rarely ever that that people have that issue.
26:00
OK. And so the more common one is
26:02
the colored colored stuff. So there's a pellicle and the,
26:07
yeah, that's like when people let them sit, really.
26:08
But that's not even like a failed batch necessarily.
26:11
It's like, oh, nasty, as long as you're not emptying from the
26:16
top, as long as you can drain from the bottom, there's a good
26:18
chance it's still good. Yeah.
26:21
And you know, a lot like, so I've hear people like where they
26:24
want it to be sweet in the end. They want it to be kind of like
26:27
a cidery smell at the end. And I'm just kind of, I'm kind
26:29
of like, like cool, but that's sugar.
26:33
And I like it. I like them a little bit more
26:35
bunky. And I think that that's where
26:36
you get the higher nutritive. I'm pretty certain that's where
26:39
you get the higher nutritive content.
26:41
But yeah, the black ring is no good and the molds growing on
26:45
top of the pellicle and and. That's not.
26:48
Yeah. OK.
26:49
So apart from that, what are some other things that we're
26:53
looking for for a successful one versus a not successful one?
26:58
And one thing I just want to talk about is pH in this.
27:04
So yeah, so lactic acid bacteria create their own environment.
27:09
They create a lactic acid slurry and lactic acid is that acid
27:14
which is a low pH. So as a lactic acid bacteria
27:18
population increases, the pH of its solution will decrease.
27:23
And when you see four pH under 4, pH 3.5, you are in the like
27:31
serum level of lactic acid. You're in like the like high
27:37
population, the peak population of that microbial population
27:42
now. Cool and.
27:43
PH is a is a really good indicator.
27:45
And that's shelf stable then at that point and for how long?
27:51
Yeah, I mean like it's, it's gonna like the best shelf stable
27:56
at that point is to remove the food supply.
28:00
So like if if you don't remove the food supply, you can have
28:04
like gnarly things happen and it get like funkier and the food
28:09
supply can really just kind of turn into a sludge, which can
28:12
become like an issue for filtering.
28:14
And like shelf stability comes when you when you remove the
28:20
food supply because that's when you're kind of resting the
28:23
fermentation a little bit. Like the microbes don't have any
28:27
more food to consume other than like themselves, their own waste
28:33
product. And that's better in their.
28:35
Own and then there won't it won't be off gassing as as much
28:39
as well because like obviously then it's going to explode if
28:42
you haven't got some sort of off gas little thing but and.
28:47
That's another reason that you like.
28:48
If you leave it sweet and there's still sugar in there,
28:51
you're going to get more off gassing because they're caught
28:54
the mush the the microbes still have a food supply in the butt
28:58
after you've removed the plant matter.
29:00
If there's still sugar in the solution, you're going to get
29:03
off gassing too. So then how would I remove the
29:06
molasses from the liquid solution?
29:09
No, you're not removing it. You're waiting until the
29:13
microbes have consumed it. Completely right.
29:15
Yeah, OK. So you can still smell sweetness
29:19
in that liquid. You're smelling molasses, you
29:23
know, and that's, or you're smelling the sugars that are
29:26
still present in there. And that's, yeah, that's, that's
29:31
not what like that's going to be a continuing food supply.
29:34
But if you really let the food supply become consumed
29:38
completely and you start getting those funkier smells, that's
29:41
when you know that like the food supply, the there's a the long
29:46
term food supply, the plant matter like that could sit in
29:49
there for months and months and months and keep feeding the
29:51
microbes. But that little bit of sugar you
29:53
added, that's gone in like 2-3 weeks, 4 weeks, like depending
29:57
on your conditions. But it's pretty obvious when the
30:01
sugars are gone. And I'd say that by the time you
30:04
hit 3.5 or 4 pH and maybe let it sit there for a week after at
30:09
the at that pH or for a little bit at that pH, you shouldn't be
30:12
smelling a whole lot of sweetness.
30:14
And you should be experiencing the higher microbial
30:18
populations, less sugars and to build stable for like removing
30:22
and. Yeah.
30:24
And then reusing it and stuff. Yeah, exactly.
30:26
Well, I've had it probably a month sitting there and it, as I
30:30
said, it's got still a bit of a sweet smell underneath.
30:33
So I'm going to leave it a little bit, see if I can allow
30:37
that molasses to be eaten a bit further.
30:40
One thing I've heard about with ferments as well is like an
30:43
optimum temperature range. Now we had a crankingly hot day
30:47
of 37°C, which I think is over 100°F.
30:55
I'm not sure what the conversion is.
30:56
I'm terrible with the temperature, but it was very,
30:59
very, very hot yesterday. And you know, lots of fires
31:02
broke out, all of this kind of thing.
31:04
Normally we're told 2425 or somewhere in the early 20s.
31:11
In terms of conversion, can you tell us a little bit about
31:14
temperature range? Please feel free to speak in
31:17
Fahrenheit. I'm going to go and look up the
31:18
conversion right now so that we can get this accurate.
31:21
But what's the temperature range optimums?
31:25
So anything about 45 Fahrenheit is is good.
31:30
Like if you're below 45 Fahrenheit, you're going to be
31:32
like really slow. Yeah.
31:34
So that's that's 7°C for for those listening.
31:39
So it's 45 Fahrenheit is 7°, so very cold.
31:42
So anything above 7. That's low end, like you don't
31:46
want to be fermenting below 7 Celsius.
31:49
OK, for as far as like hot goes. If you're just having hot days
31:58
like that, you know it's OK. Like put it in the shade or like
32:02
put it in a pool. So like I always tell people to
32:04
ferment in a location where you can kind of be versatile with
32:07
it, you know, for outdoor season, like just under a shed
32:12
or in a shady spot under a tree, Like that's great.
32:15
You know it, you don't have to go crazy with it.
32:18
And if it, if it gets hot, what you're experiencing or what
32:23
you're going to experience is the loss of microbial diversity
32:28
by way of losing like the less heat tolerant microbes in the
32:32
species. So the same way with cold, like
32:36
in a cold snap, you're going to lose some diversity.
32:41
And in the loss of that diversity, you lose a low
32:44
population. And the less like the, the, the
32:47
microbes that survived, the, the more cold tolerant or heat
32:52
tolerant microbes are going to fill that void of what the other
32:55
and, and the population is going to keep growing.
32:57
But you're going to, you're going to take a little dip
33:00
quickly and lose some diversity, probably permanently.
33:05
That's the so, So whenever I, I just had this question with
33:09
somebody asking about like, it's getting cold and my tank is
33:13
going to freeze. Is this a big problem?
33:15
And I'm like, it's not ideal. Like my micro again, my
33:18
commercial batches never freeze. But on the farm, like my if I
33:23
have a batch that freezes, it becomes a farm batch and come
33:27
spring, I just re inoculate it with a little bit of my original
33:32
EM1 way. Whatever labs I have re
33:35
inoculate the batch to add back that diversity and go time.
33:41
You know, maybe if you really wanted to add a little bit of
33:42
sugar in there to get them going again to re inoculate with as a
33:46
fast food supply when it thaws out or like when the temperature
33:50
comes back down after you have that heats bike in the
33:54
environment, you can re inoculate quickly.
33:59
If and if you're going to use it immediately, you just re
34:01
inoculate. But if you're going to wait a
34:02
little bit, you could add a little sugar too, and let that
34:05
break down too. Yeah, let it the population
34:07
build back up. OK, that does make sense because
34:10
yeah, like you know we're in apparently for a beautifully hot
34:14
summer of regular days up near that.
34:17
Well, I think 37 point something is 100 Fahrenheit.
34:20
So we're regularly going to be hitting some of that in some
34:24
places. And you know, a lot of the farms
34:26
here in Queensland and North Queensland, they have huge open
34:30
pastures and it's baking in the hot sun is so, so when, like
34:38
when farmers use this and they're using ferments on a
34:43
large scale, it's so incredibly cost effective.
34:49
And it because you can brew them up into whatever scale, right?
34:53
You can start with the a relatively small inoculant and
34:57
you know, do 1000 litre shuttle or something big, big shuttle
35:01
of, of ferments that you can then spray out on the fields.
35:07
I've got a couple of things that I want to go from here. 1 is
35:09
like when just settle on that temperature, when it's out there
35:12
in the fields and it's going into the soil.
35:16
To me, it's highly important to have something green growing in
35:21
there to reduce the temperature of that soil to reduce the the
35:24
difference in there. Because I've seen empty bare
35:27
fields in in there with sort of 50°.
35:31
I don't know what that is Fahrenheit, but it would be well
35:32
over 100°F temperature in the soil.
35:35
But when you've got greenery on the on the field, the reduction
35:39
in that heat because of the, the reflective nature of the leaves
35:42
is incredible. So that would protect the
35:44
microbial population a lot more, right?
35:48
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Yeah.
35:49
I mean, the cover cropping and like keeping land from being
35:54
fallow, like keeping something growing on the soil is one of
36:00
the like major things in natural farming in organics is like
36:04
never let the dirt become exposed or have it lay fallow.
36:10
Like, I mean, fallow is one thing means you're not putting a
36:14
target crop on it doesn't mean you're not putting a cover crop
36:16
to like keep something growing. And yeah, like you said that the
36:21
what's it endothermic? I think reaction like a a
36:26
photosynthesis where it actually is drawing heat in and
36:30
converting heat into matter and into into plant energy is
36:35
actually like most chemical reactions give off heat.
36:39
And like photosynthesis is one of those magical ones that
36:43
actually creates coolness. Like by its reaction happening,
36:46
it creates the lack of heat. The opposite.
36:49
And this is what shade, the shade under a nice big tree is
36:52
actually cooler than the shade under like a shed.
36:56
Yeah. So, so that, that grass or that
36:59
that mulch or that green mulch that that cover crop layer that
37:03
we grow provides that the benefit of what you're talking
37:07
about is huge. And it does encourage the
37:13
inoculant to take and to to benefit the soil better.
37:17
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially with other microbes
37:19
like when you're using a like a mycorrhizal in an oculent, the
37:24
you have to if you don't have plant roots growing, there's no
37:28
point in adding a mycorrhiza because it only associates
37:31
directly with plant roots. So and I think people doing that
37:34
all the time, like spreading mycorrhiza in dead, in barren
37:38
soil or just like mixing it into their dirt.
37:41
And I'm just like, yeah. Yeah, that's not going to do
37:44
anything. Who's not going to do anything
37:46
until a root gets down there, and who knows what that's going
37:49
to look like by then? Yeah, so.
37:51
Exactly man. Cool.
37:53
Can. So my other question relates to
37:56
the difference between anaerobic and aerobic.
37:59
Now, is it technically still a ferment if we're using aerobic
38:04
means? And what are the differences in
38:09
terms of microbial populations that we're developing in the 2?
38:15
OK, so Lactobacillus is a facultative micro aerophilic
38:21
anaerobe. It it they prefer they prefer
38:26
oxygen deprived environments. They don't like they they can
38:33
survive vastly outside of aerobic climates, but that's
38:38
where they, like really explode. And this is where they get kind
38:43
of like a weird reputation, because generally things that
38:47
explode in anaerobic environments are pathogens.
38:50
Yeah. Yeah.
38:51
And so, so to say, oh, Lactobacillus explodes in
38:54
anaerobic environment is like, OK, well, we're going to lump it
38:58
in with all these pathogens, even though it's explicitly anti
39:01
pathogenic in almost every species of Lactobacillus.
39:06
So that microaerophilic describes its preference for
39:09
less oxygen than what's in the air, like an oxygen depleted
39:12
environment, such as water, like little pores within the soil,
39:19
but even running water do fog all kinds of leaf surfaces,
39:27
plant surfaces. Lactobacillus is found in all
39:30
kinds of environments in nature, whether they're anaerobic or
39:33
not. OK, OK, that's really
39:36
interesting. So then say, obviously when we
39:39
use like a compost tea or an extract, I suppose like the
39:44
difference between the two is that one, we're almost blasting
39:48
off the microbes into the liquid solution and one, we're sort of
39:54
bubbling away to create these oxygen molecules or something
39:57
like this. And the differences between an
40:00
aerobic and an anaerobic compost as well is, is a big difference.
40:04
What? Because the, where I'm coming
40:08
from with this mate is that we've got a few people that, as
40:12
you mentioned, have this sort of adverse reaction or feeling
40:17
towards an anaerobic environment because it's, it can build all
40:22
of these nasties that we're trying to avoid.
40:24
But. The trick is to not necessarily
40:27
be scared of that, and there is a difference between the two
40:31
that we can stimulate for different reasons.
40:36
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the, yeah, the and, and to be fair, an
40:41
anaerobic ferment, like people will flip a talking about Jadam,
40:50
about JLF, like just just putting water, plant matter and
40:55
dirt in a bucket and letting it smell like absolutely horrible
41:00
and feeding it to plants. Like scientifically people will
41:04
tell you like, no, that's got to be full of pathogens.
41:07
But practically like nobody is like killing their crops using
41:13
JLF because of pathogens found in that anaerobic brew.
41:18
And it's like the level of simplicity of like literally a
41:22
handful or two rich dirt in a bucket of water and a bunch of
41:27
plant matter thrown in and you wait 30 days is like, like, how
41:33
could that go wrong or right? Like, I mean, it's like it's so
41:37
it's so Mystic that it, that it works like that.
41:42
And it, but This is why I like the ferments because you are
41:45
adding the Lactobacillus, which is antipathogenic.
41:49
It's not that it takes the mysticism out of it.
41:51
It's really like, oh, this is, this works because once you
41:54
understand these microbes, you understand that like they're not
41:58
going to let those pathogens ever take hold.
42:01
And I think with a greater understanding of compost and of
42:05
rich soil, you do understand that like there's in soil, in
42:10
rich soil, in compost, there's more good path, there's good,
42:14
more good microbes than bad ones.
42:16
And the proof of that, again, is that, like, people aren't
42:20
poisoning their crops using compost teas.
42:23
Yeah, like nobody's filling plants using the wrong microbes
42:28
from a bubble compost tea. Yeah, very true.
42:33
That does make a lot of sense. Brother, Personally, what got
42:38
you into this line of work? Why are you here talking about
42:41
ferments of all things? What?
42:43
What sort of story do you have on that?
42:47
Well, I mean, first I was give it up to my parents.
42:50
I'm the way I am because of them.
42:52
They're they're dope. They're like old hippie artists,
42:55
like just really masters of their crafts at what they do.
42:59
And in some circles, like pretty, pretty recognized and
43:04
renowned for what they've done through the years and, and just
43:06
been artists their whole lives, developed techniques, taught
43:10
people been like assets to their community and all these
43:12
different ways. And I mean, like I grew up with
43:16
them. They're vegetarians.
43:17
Like we had a veggie garden big like almost a veggie farm at
43:21
times in my life where like we always had abundance and shared
43:26
with our with our neighbors, like huge amounts of lettuce and
43:29
groceries, veggies, squash, cucumbers, all that everything
43:33
we could possibly grow in abundance, we were sharing with
43:35
the community by the time I grew up.
43:38
And then like, like I would, I went and stayed on these like
43:41
when I was a young adult in my early, early 20s, I went and
43:44
stayed on these like yoga farming communities out in North
43:48
Cal that were like, well, you know, my, my parents are kind of
43:50
like sussed out and figured out like that.
43:53
This is, this is a good idea. And I'd agree, I agreed.
43:57
I my specialty there my, my like area of focus was the the garden
44:02
and these giant compost piles and making big compost piles out
44:06
there with some old time just traditional organic growers.
44:14
Yeah. That that was kind of my
44:15
foundation was, you know, was, was just the background of it
44:20
having being around traditional organic growing as as long as I
44:26
can remember. That seems to really help,
44:28
doesn't it? Hey, yeah.
44:31
There's nothing like immersion. Yeah, it was just being around
44:34
it, but that. But then I did grow like all
44:37
kinds of different ways for a long time with, with
44:40
conventional fertilizers, pesticides, all kinds of stuff.
44:44
And but the quality just isn't, it's not the same.
44:47
So we, you know, I came back around to, to these ideas of the
44:51
natural way by way of like simple economics, that this is
44:58
just when I can, if you're a farmer and this is what you do,
45:02
or a gardener, grower, if you're a, even if you're a hobbyist and
45:05
this is what you love to do, then like you want to spend more
45:08
time doing it. That's the goal of a hobby.
45:11
You love it so much, you want to do more of it.
45:13
So whether you're doing it for fun or for for work, like the
45:19
aspect of spending more time doing it is, is really the goal.
45:23
So a little bit more time working on making your ferments,
45:26
making your inputs, making your compost, working the soil, it it
45:31
pays off and and it's like what you're supposed to be doing as
45:35
either the hobbyist or the professional.
45:38
That's yeah, that's absolutely true, man.
45:41
It's putting that extra bit of love and care into everything
45:45
and that comes out the other side.
45:48
So that's LED you to what you're doing now, sharing knowledge.
45:51
You're doing a lot of sort of talks and workshops and things
45:53
now and and spreading the love on fermented plant extracts.
45:58
What's, what's the future looking like for you in terms of
46:01
what's top of mind for you at the moment that you're thinking
46:04
about and working towards? I want to, I've been throwing
46:07
events and doing good like really fun little like community
46:11
events around the country and then out here in my region,
46:14
western Colorado. And I'd really love to do
46:15
another one this year, like maybe a camp out type of thing,
46:19
I don't know. Or I'd love to travel around.
46:22
I want to get back to the Chicago area and do another
46:24
class up there. I'd love to do something in
46:27
California. Yeah, I'm, I'm just, I've been
46:30
working a lot on my property in the last year and just just kind
46:33
of like getting myself stable and my feet underneath me here
46:36
more. But I'd love to do more
46:38
community oriented stuff. I love what Matt Powers does
46:43
with his soil conference. Yes, and that's another thing
46:47
like there's some events like camp compost here and like I'd,
46:51
I'd love to like cause 'cause we have a really beautiful and
46:54
special thing with Bill Lasso with our community here.
46:57
At the same time, I want to like reach out to other communities
47:00
and be like, yo, I fuck with you.
47:03
Like I want to do, I want to work with you.
47:04
I want to do like, like I, I love that.
47:07
I love like for you reach out to me and, and say like, come on.
47:10
I love when people reach out to me.
47:11
I want to be more outgoing and be more like offering of myself
47:15
and being like, yo, I'll just come out and talk if you could
47:17
like, you know, give me a, give me a room on a cabin or, you
47:21
know, a couch or something. I'm, I'm, I'm there.
47:25
So I'd love to like integrate more with, with the communities
47:28
around the world, whether in person or digitally.
47:32
Do more podcasts like this. Like this is really kind of what
47:34
fills me up is sharing with people, hearing their stories.
47:37
Yeah. And you know, whether it's like
47:40
celebrating together or commiserating the struggles
47:43
together, it's like that's where we grow and build and, and learn
47:47
and, and share. So I love coming together as
47:50
peers and as equals. And then just like learning from
47:52
each other and doing these kind of events.
47:54
And yeah, I've, I've done some great events of the years.
47:58
Like I love going places and being with people and
48:00
interfacing with different communities.
48:03
And I, I love working direct with farmers too.
48:05
I really would like to do more like implementing of this,
48:08
teaching people how to make these on their own farm and
48:12
saying like, oh, if this is how you do things, well, then like
48:15
let's make it easy so you don't have to do a bunch of extra
48:18
work. Like if you're if you already
48:19
got the tractor and the sprayer out for that, just like we can
48:23
either tank mix the ferments right in with that or we'll do
48:25
one more pass with it. And you know, it's like
48:28
implementation on larger scale would be a really is always like
48:31
a really exciting prospect to me.
48:34
Cool, right? You're sounds like you're doing
48:38
some amazing things. Like I'd love to keep connected.
48:42
Obviously, if you're ever out this way, I would absolutely
48:45
love to connect with you whether or not I can start setting up
48:48
some events over here for you to bring you over or whether we can
48:51
do some virtual stuff online. My brain is is ticking on that
48:56
regard. So we'll I would love to
48:58
absolutely continue that on build the community.
49:00
A rising tide lifts all boats, so we should just be sharing
49:05
this community around. So I really appreciate you mate.
49:10
Yeah, I really. Appreciate that.
49:12
Let's stay in touch. And then we have it, ladies and
49:31
gentlemen, the wonderful Miles Philippelli, A fellow dread
49:34
headed soul that is just so kind and sweet, sharing all of his
49:37
knowledge. And as I mentioned, I'm really
49:40
appreciative for his time that he took to share this knowledge
49:43
with us and our audience here in Australia.
49:45
We do have a bit of an international audience, so it is
49:48
relevant to all the people around the world.
49:49
And this technology can be utilized by everyone around the
49:53
world, creating their own ferments for their gardens.
49:56
And as Miles said it, it builds such incredible diverse soil
50:00
life that we just then have better quality plants, better
50:03
quality nutrition for ourselves and our communities afterwards.
50:07
So hopefully you'll see a little bit more of Miles and connected
50:10
through the channel in the future.
50:12
I definitely plan to stay in touch and I'm super grateful to
50:16
you guys for listening. If you learnt something, if you
50:18
are appreciative of this conversation, share it around,
50:21
share the episode, let us know in the comments section which
50:24
parts you enjoy, what your experiences with these ferments.
50:28
And then obviously any kind of review on the show really helps
50:32
us to find more people who can discover some of this wonderful
50:36
information. So I'm really grateful to you,
50:38
the listener, and hopefully we'll see you again very soon on
50:42
the next episode. Bye for now.