Latest / Indie Film Podcast / Stop Filming Like a Beginner: Better Lighting & Shot Design

Transcript

Stop Filming Like a Beginner: Better Lighting & Shot Design · Indie Film Podcast

0:00
He was lighting a scene where a guy's taking a shower.
0:03
You've got to backlight the water or else it won't show up
0:06
on frame. Oh nice.
0:07
And I was like, why? You can't be certain.
0:09
Nope, he's absolutely right. You won't see the water droplets
0:13
unless they're backlit. Oh.
0:15
If you're watching this episode, you may have noticed we
0:18
remembered to take the lens cap off.
0:20
Which is step number 2IN making sure that you capture usable
0:23
footage. Step #1.
0:24
Turn on the camera. Nice.
0:27
Welcome to Indie Film Podcast. I'm Vic.
0:30
And I'm Chuck. We're breaking down the seven
0:32
deadly sins of low budget indie filmmaking.
0:34
So far we've covered scripting, rehearsals and art department.
0:37
So today we're going to cover the thing that makes or breaks
0:39
at all lighting and shot design. More specifically, how to make
0:43
sure your film doesn't look like security camera footage.
0:46
Yeah, because no matter how high def those Ring cameras get, I
0:49
just don't think they're ever going to play as cinema magic.
0:51
Unless you're making something within the 28 Days Later
0:54
franchise. Just kidding.
0:56
All right, Victoria, can you tell us a lesson that you
0:58
learned behind the camera that you wish you would have learned
1:01
earlier? Yeah, there's this.
1:03
Really super simple trick for composition that once you learn
1:09
it you feel kind of ridiculous for not putting that together
1:12
earlier. And I started with it for
1:13
photos, but I've since moved on to using it for film footage.
1:18
Right on. I love that it's good to get out
1:19
and take pictures with a camera. It's use your phone.
1:22
Make sure that you're you're getting those reps in.
1:24
Yeah, it's really nice. It's it's it's fun.
1:26
It teaches you how to like build some lines and some patterns and
1:29
what compositions and styles you like so.
1:30
And what was the Super simple trick that you learned?
1:33
The example is a little bit more informative than the rule
1:37
itself. The rule itself is make sure
1:40
that if you're filming or photographing something
1:43
interesting, that that interesting thing is actually in
1:46
the frame. OK?
1:47
That's good stuff #1. And when you hear that, you're
1:50
like, yeah, duh, of course. But the idea is if you're taking
1:54
a walk through the woods and you're like, wow, these trees
1:57
are so pretty. There's this gorgeous clearing.
1:58
I'm going to take a photo. And you take a photo, you might
2:02
notice actually those are pretty average looking trees.
2:04
It's not the trees that were pretty.
2:06
It was the light coming through the trees.
2:08
So just stop and ask yourself, what does make this pretty?
2:11
What does make this interesting? Why do I feel compelled to take
2:15
this photo right now? And make sure that you get that
2:18
centered in a line to be either your eyes drawn to it through
2:21
different lines, or it's center in the frame, or you're using
2:24
the rule of thirds and all the fun things we'll cover later on
2:26
in this episode. Yeah, absolutely.
2:28
Yeah, No, I like that a lot. Yeah.
2:30
I mean, that's really simple and it's, it's pay attention and be
2:34
curious and it's, it's fun to watch other people that you
2:39
know, take out their phone and get pictures and videos.
2:43
The people that haven't ever worked behind a camera at all,
2:46
they have zero skills. And it's really fun to see how
2:49
they approach taking a picture. And it's kind of one of those
2:53
things where if you take enough pictures, you will get some
2:56
really cool ones. Yeah, just by accident.
2:59
Yeah. But the the percentage of good
3:03
pictures versus versus pictures that are completely unusable or
3:07
don't don't, you know, just bring out any emotion and the
3:11
viewer is, is, is a lot lower for those those people that
3:13
haven't gotten the reps in. But the more reps you do, the
3:16
more that ratio can shift in your favour.
3:18
Oh yeah, for sure. It's very important to note that
3:20
this is a very practicable skill.
3:22
You can get better. Yeah.
3:23
Do you have any personal stories you want to share about things
3:26
that you've learned? I think my favorite things that
3:30
I've done behind a camera have not always been the successful
3:34
things. OK, right on.
3:36
But they've been the moments where I was willing to try and
3:39
take a risk. OK, there's this one really wild
3:42
tracking shot in a short film I made, called, did, didn't.
3:47
And it's a man checking out at a grocery store and sort of the
3:51
drama that ensues between them. And then a police officer
3:54
enters. And so we start with, you know,
3:58
a shot of the cashier ringing things up, and then it tracks
4:02
down to the cash being handed, or it was a check being handed
4:05
over. And then the nervous look on the
4:07
guy's face who handed the check is we're spinning around the
4:09
both of them. And then we see the reaction on
4:11
the cashier's face. And we're trying to rack, focus
4:13
all of this until we go all the way around the entire set.
4:17
So you see everything in the entire room and then you're
4:19
watching the police officer enter.
4:22
And then the the dramatic moment of is this a bad check that
4:25
you're passing? And because that was the whole
4:28
point anyway. So it's a pivotal moment in the
4:31
film A. Lot of movements, yes.
4:33
A lot of movements with just, you know, the the single base
4:38
handle on the DJI Ronan and the relying heavily on the auto
4:43
focus on my cannon. And yeah, it wasn't it wasn't
4:48
perfectly executed. It was not at all, not even
4:52
slightly. And we had several takes.
4:54
But it was a lot of fun and it was really exciting to try.
4:59
And it was so cool that even though there were only a handful
5:02
of lines, being able to catch all the faces of these people
5:06
and the actual action and realizing this is the exact
5:09
visual storytelling method was just so cool and so much fun.
5:14
It doesn't look great, but the the idea was fantastic though.
5:17
Oh. Yeah, that sounds like a good
5:19
one. Execution wasn't 100% well I.
5:21
Mean it's OK, you got to yeah, you got to miss them.
5:23
And, and if you, I actually had a podcast that I did for years,
5:27
I had to look up when it started and it was 2018 and that was the
5:31
first time I really did any of my own camera work.
5:35
On the podcast that you were making.
5:37
On the podcast, yes, this old podcast, it was like a local
5:39
Boise thing where I would talk with local artists here and I
5:43
thought, OK, I should put it on the YouTube channel where my
5:46
brother and I were making. Yeah.
5:48
And so I'm like, well, I need to have video with that.
5:51
So I did my best with the two cameras that I had access to and
5:55
the, the, the difference in skin tones between the two guests
5:58
because first I did a split screen and then I did a wide
6:01
shot. I wasn't quite sure how to white
6:03
balance it correctly because I just didn't know what I was
6:05
doing and I don't know. I did like 100 and and 15
6:09
episodes. That's not nothing.
6:11
That's a lot. That's more episodes than we
6:12
have of this podcast. Yeah.
6:14
And it barely, it barely got better over time, right.
6:18
And so, but, but the thing was, is that wasn't, I wasn't
6:21
concentrating on that. No, your focus is on the podcast
6:25
content. Yeah, yeah.
6:25
So like person like my actually my own greatest personal success
6:30
would probably be working at a tech company and filming
6:35
components of electronics because it was just sheer
6:40
volume. Well, and you know the actors
6:42
are always going to show up on time.
6:43
True. Yes, and they don't complain and
6:47
they don't need, they don't need crafty breaks or bathroom breaks
6:50
or anything. They just sit there.
6:52
They're just a. 100% in charge of those computers and those
6:55
printers and all those electronic components.
6:57
So easy, so easy and extremely fulfilling.
7:00
Obviously, no, it's obviously I didn't continue going down that,
7:05
continue with that job. I didn't even continue going
7:07
down that path because it is very monotonous.
7:10
But at the same time, after a few years of that and having
7:14
filmed so many different products, it, it was very quick.
7:18
It became very quick for me to be able to check focus.
7:21
Sometimes I had to move around to different departments.
7:23
They had different cameras learning, you know, the Sony
7:26
infrastructure versus the Canon or menus.
7:30
And then my own Lumix that I used, I was able to, you know,
7:34
kind of learn all three of them. Being able to check focus, being
7:38
being able to get an eye for exposure really quickly.
7:40
Yeah. Because if I, when I sent stuff
7:43
in initially, it was like, oh, this shot doesn't match the
7:45
other shot. And having to go back and rework
7:47
it or have it even worse, having to go to the giant facility,
7:50
grab a printer, spend 20 minutes walking across the facility to
7:54
put set it all back up in the studio again.
7:56
So it was, it was brutal. You didn't want to go back in
7:58
there? This is the moment to get too
8:00
much footage. Yeah, yeah.
8:02
Make sure that you overshoot it. Make sure that everything is
8:04
absolutely perfect because a large company or any company in
8:08
general that sells products don't want those things to look
8:12
bad in a video or on a photo because it needs to be.
8:16
Everything needs to be perfect in those realms.
8:19
It was social media, so it was it was a really good experience
8:22
for me. It wasn't like, you know, fun at
8:27
all. It wasn't fulfilling where
8:29
perhaps? But now when I do, I'm not a
8:31
cinematographer. When I'm on set, I am 90% doing
8:35
sound work. But it's it's, it was nice to be
8:38
able to get that experience. So now if I do get into my
8:42
brother and I have done and you and I have done some live music
8:44
video shoots, I can hold my own behind the camera now at least.
8:48
Yeah, I know that if this is autofocus, I know when to trust
8:52
the autofocus on my camera. Yeah.
8:55
And the autofocus peaking. Or the focus assist.
8:57
Yeah, the focus assist, I know when it's accurate, when it's
9:00
not quite accurate, when I need to adjust it manually to double
9:04
check that and you know, frame things up relatively quickly.
9:08
Which is good because you got the reps in, yeah, and now you
9:11
get to use that to your advantage, which feels like a
9:13
big win. There was a quote I wanted to
9:15
read here about that too. Oh, yeah, which is Bruce Lee's,
9:18
I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but
9:22
I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.
9:26
And so if you're, you know, if you're interested in getting out
9:29
there and making films and, and hopefully getting some notoriety
9:34
on that, you just got to you just got to do it.
9:36
Just do it over and over again. All the things you got to get
9:39
reps in and I feel like camera is one of the most important.
9:42
I agree. I would say lighting and cameras
9:46
both, though they tend to go hand in hand, but lighting and
9:49
cameras both because as much as I can be excited about my
9:53
progress over time in my overall composition, yeah, I do also
10:00
know there's still a lot left to be desired in my gaffing
10:03
abilities. Yes, lighting contrast is
10:07
lighting contrast and framing go hand in.
10:09
Hand, they really do. They are an important team that
10:11
works together. They are the peanut butter to
10:14
your Jelly unless you have a peanut allergy than they are the
10:16
almond or sunflower or whatever other butter you would prefer.
10:20
Yeah, to to the Jelly there. I like it.
10:24
We had somebody with a peanut allergy on set recently, so now
10:26
it's just in my brain all the time.
10:28
Yeah, you got to watch, you got to watch out with those those
10:30
analogies too, in case they start to break out.
10:32
I don't know how that works. So we could, we could kind of
10:36
want to share some of our best lessons, Yes, that we've that
10:39
we've learned. And one is for me.
10:43
Learn your camera. And I put the caveat of or a
10:47
camera. In and out menu systems.
10:51
DSLR is actually black magic is the the easiest for me, and I
10:55
think it's probably the easiest for most people.
10:58
I would say between the black magic I use and the Canon I use,
11:00
the black magic menu is so much faster and easier to navigate.
11:04
Yes, you do have to go through a lot of screens, but man if
11:07
you've been inside a Canon menu there is just limitless options
11:10
and dizzying. And a lot of that is the the
11:13
hybrid photo slash video environment where it's like,
11:17
well, I don't need you'd focus stacking on a video cuz that
11:20
doesn't do anything. That will not happen.
11:22
That's what's this quick item menu, but if you're just getting
11:26
started or if you're a director that wants to learn some of the
11:30
in and outs of how exposure works, how Aperture works, those
11:34
types of things, you can actually just download the Black
11:37
Magic Camera app on Android and iOS and iOS and it works really
11:42
well. It basically makes your phone
11:44
look like the screen on a black magic and you can automatically
11:48
adjust or excuse me, not automatically, but you can
11:50
manually adjust the shutter angle, the white balance and I
11:53
don't know if it has, I don't think it has any focus peeking
11:56
on there. It might depend on the camera or
11:58
false color, but that's another one to to to keep in mind.
12:01
Yeah, I didn't see either of those in there 'cause I have
12:04
used it before, 'cause I was just genuinely curious.
12:06
And I got to be honest, it does. The footage just does look
12:09
better and you get a little bit more control over the specific
12:13
frame rate and things. And I know that native phone
12:16
cameras are getting better and better and better because, I
12:19
mean, everyone uses them primarily as a really nice
12:22
camera now. I guess occasionally maybe for a
12:24
phone call too, but it's just to access your social media.
12:28
Profile answer my phone. How dare you call me?
12:31
Do not call me. What do you think this is No,
12:34
the the black magic app because I just was curious and wanted to
12:39
know does actually pull really cool good footage and it's
12:44
really interesting to use. So highly recommend downloading
12:47
that because it's free and you can just test it out and play
12:49
with it. Yeah, it's a great, it's great
12:51
app. The other thing that I learned I
12:53
talked about before, but I want to remind people of Wiffle if
12:56
you're, if you're on set. I just keep that in my brain,
13:01
especially if I have to do like a quick live shoot and I get put
13:05
on a camera that I haven't used for a while, which usually ends
13:07
up being a Sony, which I spent a lot of time behind one.
13:10
But when you're switching back and forth, like a lot of people
13:12
shoot on Sony. And if I get a gig where I'm
13:14
shooting on Sony, it's like, OK, I got to make sure I check these
13:16
things. And WIFFLE is just an acronym.
13:19
It stands for White Balance ISOF stop, focus, framing Level, and
13:25
exposure. And those are all the things you
13:28
want to make sure are set before you hit record.
13:30
Yes, yes, just just in case. And, and sometimes you have to
13:34
dig pretty deep in the menus on the cameras to make sure that
13:36
you get all those check marked. But and when I say level, I
13:39
don't mean light level, I mean just make sure your camera's
13:42
level. And yes, it's so great if your
13:46
tripod has a level on it, but you never know what screw isn't
13:51
tightened in quite all the way or what's just not 100% or if
13:55
you're on a like gimbal or something like that where it's
13:58
got like just maybe a little bit too much weight on one side.
14:01
Yeah. Anyway, just always double check
14:03
the level just. Very careful on that one, which
14:07
we were watching West Wing recently and it feels like every
14:10
every moving shot that I saw on that show, it was just like like
14:14
slightly canted to the left. There's a little bit of can't.
14:17
And it happened over multiple episodes, which makes me think,
14:20
was this a decision because it's always tilted to the same side
14:23
every time they move? Or is it just like somebody had
14:25
their thumb on the scale on the on the steady Cam?
14:28
Unit, I think on the steady Cam unit, we just know if they're
14:30
right-handed or left-handed now that's what.
14:32
I think just got a heavy thumb don't know how to control it.
14:36
So we we had we were talking about some of the important
14:40
lessons that we learned like one learn the camera thoroughly or a
14:43
camera. Yeah, for me WIFFLE acronym
14:46
don't hit record until you've checked all that stuff, which I
14:48
didn't say lens cap off, which is actually a little bit more
14:50
hard to do now with digital cameras, but make sure your.
14:56
Camera's on, but do make sure that it's on and everything.
14:58
Yeah, turn the lens cap off, hit record.
15:01
And then we also talk about be curious and and play around with
15:07
lighting especially, but framing and things like that.
15:09
Always try new things. Just get out there and and see
15:13
what what makes you happy and expose yourself to as many
15:18
different formats of film as you possibly can.
15:20
So like TV short form, long term form, I can almost speak today
15:26
dramas or comedies, like full-fledged movies, even
15:29
animation because I think animation is a really fun way to
15:32
think about cinematography because obviously it's not
15:34
cinematography, I guess unless it's stop motion, but it's not
15:37
it's they had to draw all of these things.
15:39
So they drew these components into a specific way to build up
15:44
this shot. So there's probably a reason
15:47
they did that, and I think that's really fun and cool too.
15:49
But that's just how you get to learn new things, yeah.
15:53
Try stuff out. It is good.
15:54
It is good to mess around with things like that.
15:56
I, you just reminded me of another story that I heard.
15:58
It was actually my brother's story because he went to school
16:01
for writing, but he decided to take a film class and he and
16:04
that moved him. But it was a one-on-one class
16:06
and he moved away from from that because he went into the class
16:09
and and there were a lot of kids that didn't understand that
16:13
there were cuts in a film. Like they didn't even understand
16:17
that multiple camera angle, multiple camera angles were
16:20
happening while the film was playing well.
16:23
I guess that's why it's a one-on-one class.
16:25
Yeah, so, so just. You know what?
16:27
No, I'm going to say that the odds of that happening with a
16:30
group of 18 year olds in 2026 so much lower because everybody has
16:35
cap cut on their phone. Yeah, good point, good point.
16:38
This was O 5 S different 20 years ago.
16:41
Yeah, 20 years ago it might have been a different story, but I
16:44
just. I think that's kind of funny,
16:45
but. But what an experience to be in
16:47
that room where people don't know that's what's happening.
16:49
Yeah, that's so cool that, like, have that light.
16:52
I mean, maybe it shattered your reality of movies.
16:54
So hopefully that wasn't too scarring.
16:56
But yeah, that would be, they'll be like, Oh my gosh, that's a
16:59
lot of work. That's finding out Santa isn't
17:01
real. Completely not aware of the fact
17:04
that there is a camera, that the camera actually exists.
17:07
It's it's unique, but at the same time I remember early on I
17:12
was not aware of how lighting worked because we never messed
17:16
with it. And bringing somebody on that
17:19
was really capable with a camera and with the gaffing, it was
17:23
just instantly this is what we were missing in our films.
17:27
Which actually brings me to the Cheap Trick of the Week.
17:31
Love it. Negative fills, yeah, that was
17:35
such an eye opening experience for me to learn about the fact
17:39
that if you have black does not reflect light and if you don't
17:43
want to, if you don't have a bunch of money for a bunch of
17:46
lights. A lot of times if you're filming
17:48
in an already bright environment, just a lot of non
17:52
reflective surfaces can give you a dynamic lighting.
17:56
It can. And yeah, to be clear here, a
17:59
negative fill, yes, you mean as? Just, you know, just a big black
18:05
piece of fabric. There we go.
18:06
Yeah, you can use just a big black piece of fabric or really
18:10
Navy blue, though keep in mind any color that is in there,
18:15
black is black because it's it's what it's all of them all at
18:19
once, or it's none of them. And then white is all of them
18:21
white is all of them white. Reflects everything.
18:23
Yeah. And then black will not just
18:26
absorbs it. If it's blue, you might end up
18:27
with a little bit of blue bounce back, or if it's a really dark
18:30
green, yes, a little bit of green bounce back, which you can
18:33
use creatively to your advantage.
18:35
Oh, for sure. But just keep that in mind,
18:37
Yeah, just be careful. Black is kind of nice.
18:39
Especially if you're shooting in with a camera with a lot of like
18:41
16 bit color information and then you get into post and
18:44
you're looking at it and you're like, whoa, what is going on
18:47
with that person's face? That's not right.
18:49
I guess this this this negative fill was slightly Navy blue or
18:53
something like that. Oopsie, Daisy.
18:55
Wasn't the pure black we'd hoped for?
18:57
That's OK. That's OK.
18:58
So that's a good one. Do you wanna talk about since
19:01
you went to school for cinematography, do you wanna
19:04
talk about some of the things that the pros are gonna tell you
19:07
when you're just learning? I would love to sit here and be
19:12
like, I'm going to tell you what all the pros are going to tell
19:14
you, but it's really if I'm saying this, it's because
19:18
somebody who actually is told me.
19:21
Nice, we will take second hand information.
19:24
We'll take it. I would say the first thing is
19:28
composition and there are a lot of different methods to this.
19:33
I know we covered them a little bit earlier, but like the idea
19:36
of rule of thirds, frame within a frame, foreground, mid ground
19:40
background, leading lines, golden rectangle or triangle or
19:44
spiral 'cause you can find many of those central composition
19:47
versus negative space, an S curve.
19:49
There are so many of these and you can hop on Instagram and
19:54
find probably several 100,000 examples of all these different
19:58
types of. Oh yeah, for sure.
20:00
You easily can, but I think the most important thing is when
20:04
you're looking at your frame, do you see a pattern?
20:07
Is there something there? Is there something drawing your
20:10
eye towards where you want their eye to be perfect?
20:14
Don't worry if you didn't get the golden triangle right,
20:17
That's OK. You made a pattern of sorts and
20:20
you made it visually appealing. You either balance the frame
20:23
nicely or you left it unbalanced very intentionally and it
20:27
achieved something. And light is a really good way
20:30
to sort of add and take away from some of that 'cause if you
20:33
think about sort of a busy, crowded room or a bar or
20:36
something like that, and you've got the people at the front
20:38
pretty well lit so you can see them, but you just see a big
20:40
mass of black with an occasional moving shadow in the background.
20:45
Now, you know, maybe I should throw a couple lights on there.
20:47
Maybe some practicals have little lamps on the tables or a
20:51
couple other like string lights hanging up above them, something
20:53
that's going to illuminate them so you can see what's back there
20:57
and it's not just an endless void.
21:00
And then boom, look at that. You've composited a shot by
21:04
lighting your background, lighting your foreground, giving
21:06
your mid ground a little bit of space and room to breathe.
21:09
Look at you go. So.
21:12
That was. That was my exciting composition
21:14
rant. Oh, right on.
21:16
I liked it. No, I like the pattern aspect of
21:18
of things because I've gone back through and looked at some of
21:21
the photos that I took that were interesting early on when I was
21:25
taking a whole bunch of pictures and then compared it to some of
21:29
those little charts that I've seen online or those
21:31
compositions online. It's and then it's like, oh, OK,
21:34
this is what, this is what I'm tending to do when I'm taking a
21:38
picture that I like, you know, which ends up being, you know,
21:41
like an S curve or a rule of thirds or whatever the case may
21:44
be. But I found I was naturally
21:46
doing some of those, those things.
21:47
So it's easier to lean into that.
21:49
Yeah, in the composition. Naturally, you're going to have
21:51
your own personal preferences and you may not be able to
21:53
describe why you like something so much, but you're just very
21:56
drawn to it, so lean into that. Welcome.
21:59
You've just met your new style. There's nothing wrong with that.
22:02
I think that's perfect. And even if something's really
22:04
weird, I was just thinking about the movie Long Legs, for
22:06
example, how the how the Nick, Nick Cage's character, who was
22:10
the the bad person, the evil dude, the evil guy, all you
22:14
could see was basically the bottom of his chin.
22:18
You saw. You saw one of his lips.
22:19
Oh, yeah, yeah. Part yeah.
22:21
Part of his mouth essentially, like below the nose was all they
22:23
had in the frame for him. And some of the frames were
22:25
pretty large. And The funny thing is, is like
22:28
in that film, obviously it was designed to be that way.
22:32
But you and I have seen any films where all of a sudden they
22:35
start cutting off, like, foreheads and and eyeballs.
22:38
And we're thinking, wait a second, this doesn't look like a
22:40
decision. This looks like just, it might
22:42
have been a lack of planning and the camera can't quite keep up
22:45
with the actor's movement. And that feels a little bit a
22:48
bit different when it's unintentional versus like, we're
22:50
not going to see Nick Cage's eyeballs for the first.
22:53
Half of this movie. Yeah, he's just going to be this
22:55
mysterious character. Yeah.
22:57
That's. Completely out of frame.
22:58
And that works partially, yeah. I think the most I all I often
23:03
see the either referred to as way too much headroom or giving
23:06
someone a haircut. Yeah, I think the most often
23:10
I've seen that go real rough in the in the haircut, as in
23:15
chopping off half their forehead realm was when they were trying
23:18
to auto stabilize a shot in post.
23:21
Oh yeah, yeah. Using the Warp Stabilizer in
23:23
Premiere and and it has to zoom in a little bit to keep your
23:28
frame a little more steady and you lose some things like all
23:32
your headroom or your lead room. Yeah.
23:34
So make sure that you got something steady, Yeah, that you
23:37
can get those shots on. And try not to fix it in pose
23:39
because it's not going to turn out how you wanted it.
23:41
No, your decision will be shaky shot or something with the
23:45
actors features removed. Oops.
23:48
It's not what you want. Yeah, it's OK.
23:51
I don't know that's, that's tough.
23:52
And then that scenario I might just go with shaky or just cut
23:55
the shot completely and try to figure out what other coverage I
23:58
had. Yeah, I you at that point, I
24:00
think I might take an artistic spin on like, you know, I had
24:03
this shot of the candle flickering on the table.
24:05
Maybe we just hear the actors, but this is what we see.
24:08
Let's just make this a radio play.
24:10
Yeah? Way too hard.
24:13
And as long as your sound was good, they get fine.
24:16
Easy, cheesy, so much simpler. What do you what other pro tips
24:20
you got for us? Lighting contrast.
24:22
So we've actually heard on a previous episode of this podcast
24:26
where we forced our favorite cinematographer who does not
24:28
enjoy being on camera, to come here and be on camera.
24:32
Danny Clamorous. He's a great cinematographer and
24:35
we've both used him and leveraged his work for a lot.
24:38
For sure, he's great. He's talented.
24:40
And an excellent gaffer too. He does both things on set very
24:43
quickly and efficiently. Which is cool.
24:45
And he talked about light in a really unique way that I still
24:50
am obsessed with. It's that we're adding depth
24:54
because at the end of the day, a movie is a 2D image and you are
24:58
using light to add 3D to it or to make it look 3D.
25:01
And I just, I really loved that because I'd never really thought
25:04
about a movie as being 2D before.
25:06
But it it is. Yeah.
25:08
And if if you see something that looks uncinematic, it's usually
25:12
because it looks, it's 2 dimensional.
25:14
Yeah, it's not. It's not giving you that, that
25:19
you know that visual hallucination that this is.
25:23
That's right, a good cinematographer will make you
25:25
hallucinate. Yes, hallucinate.
25:28
That extra dimension that doesn't even, that doesn't even
25:31
exist. I'm just totally forgetting the
25:33
word right now for what I'm looking for.
25:36
That's OK. I'm just going to call it a
25:37
hallucination. But yeah, it was.
25:40
It was fun watching. Danny was the one that initially
25:42
helped my brother and I with a set of short films and working
25:46
with him. It was so eye opening to see him
25:50
use negative fills correctly. It's like, well, this person's,
25:54
there's too much light coming on this side of the person's face.
25:58
Let's put up a big black sheet here, a big blackboard and oh
26:02
wait, oh, look at that. That looks way more interesting.
26:04
Now there's shadow on the side of their face.
26:07
We want the subject to pop in this environment, so we're going
26:09
to put a hair light on them. And and it was those those
26:12
little things that are that are really obvious.
26:14
Didn't go to film school myself, so I probably should have
26:17
understood some of that. But when you're just bombing
26:19
around with a camera, pointing and recording at things, you
26:21
don't understand what's going on if you're not curious and you're
26:25
not looking at it. Yeah, so.
26:27
I think that's all I mean. Light, I mean lighting is the
26:30
thing that is the thing that makes it look most cinematic.
26:33
It is, all else being equal at. The end of the day, it's going
26:35
to be it's, yeah, it's going to be your lights.
26:38
Yeah, and we made. Fun of people.
26:40
We made fun of people or made fun of the idea that that Luts
26:43
are it's going to make your. Yeah.
26:45
Your film looks cinematic. It doesn't work that way.
26:47
I'm sorry. A flat image with no contrast is
26:49
a flat image with no contrast. No, you're going to be doing a
26:51
lot of post work to try to give you any depth whatsoever and
26:54
it's not going to end up looking the way you want to do so it's.
26:58
Going to look like a video, a homemade, a home video.
27:00
Well, the Cody Newton, a fantastic not only fan of this
27:05
podcast but filmmaker as well, was the first gaffer I'd ever
27:10
really gotten to work with on a shoot where I was
27:12
cinematographer and he was gaffing and also running B Cam,
27:16
so had a lot to do. Indie film.
27:18
We all do all the. Things we all do all the things,
27:21
but it was just so eye opening and wild to see gaffer like, how
27:30
do they set these lights up? How do they know where to bring
27:33
a little extra out? And he was lighting a scene
27:37
where a guy's taking a shower. And so he was talking about oh,
27:41
and I was like, yeah, well, we'll just keep the lights over
27:42
here. And he's like, no, you got to,
27:43
you've got to backlight the water or else it won't show up
27:46
on frame. And I was like, why?
27:48
You can't be? Nope, he's absolutely right.
27:51
You won't see the water droplets unless they're backlit.
27:54
Oh. Yeah, I thought that was the
27:56
coolest thing ever because then suddenly it just, it added so
27:59
much depth to it and it was really interesting and cool.
28:02
Oh, that's a good pro tip. There we go.
28:04
Yeah. Backlight water from the shower.
28:06
Backlight your water whenever you can.
28:08
It makes it pop out of your background a little bit more.
28:10
Nice, so now we know. What other pro tips you got for?
28:12
Us other pro tips movement nice or intentionally choosing no
28:17
movement OK conveying information visually because
28:20
that is the number one. One best thing about being a
28:22
cinematographer, in my humble opinion, is that you are the one
28:26
who gets to tell the entire story.
28:29
I don't care if somebody else wrote it, if the actors are
28:31
acting it. The director's got this vision.
28:33
All that's fantastic. But the cinematographer
28:36
literally decides what the audience is going to see.
28:39
You're telling this story, so convey the story.
28:43
I like that a lot. And we could even go back to the
28:45
script episode with that. You know, maybe if you're a good
28:49
cinematographer and you're looking at a script and it's a
28:51
writer director and you're working with the director and
28:54
you're thinking, you know what, this line's a little clunky
28:57
here. Maybe we could show what's going
28:58
on rather than you have them explained it and it's going to
29:01
make the movie so much better if you do that.
29:04
I feel like that would be a net win.
29:05
And then you're also the hero that saved the movie.
29:09
So yeah, way to be the best cinematographer possible.
29:11
For sure. And then of course, everyone's
29:15
heard of it, the 180° rule. Oh yes, got to always keep that
29:19
in mind. Which is the idea where you
29:20
can't just hop back and forth on what's left frame, what's right
29:24
frame. You want to draw a line across
29:27
your scene or your set and that is where the 180° is and you do
29:34
not cross that once you've established that line.
29:38
But one of my favorite things that a professor in film school
29:41
did tell well at college where I was getting a degree, not a
29:46
world renowned film school. I should clarify here the the
29:52
rules are all there, but you know if you have a reason you
29:57
should break them. Yeah, that's super cool.
29:59
So like the 180, we broke that real hard in Dive.
30:03
Oh yeah, we did. But it was only after we'd had
30:05
quite a few shots establishing exactly what the location was
30:09
and exactly where people were. It was still only two people.
30:12
So it was a little bit easier for audiences to understand and
30:14
not get as Jarred or confused. And it was at a very pivotal,
30:18
pivotal, pivotal shift in the film.
30:21
It's pivotal. It's pivotal.
30:23
You were pivoting. We were and in the camera was
30:26
pivotal at that juncture. It was indeed.
30:29
Thank you. That's obviously what I was
30:31
aiming for instead of just stuttering over my own words.
30:34
I. Liked it?
30:34
And I hallucinated the answer to that puzzle for you.
30:38
This is an exciting episode, but this is going real well.
30:41
Easy, cheesy. Words are hard, man.
30:44
This is what we get when we decide that we're not editing
30:47
these podcasts. No editing?
30:48
No. Editing.
30:49
That's how we live. So yeah, I like that a lot.
30:53
I I kind of like the 180° rule. I do like when that is broken on
30:59
on films, but I I feel like it was important for me to
31:02
understand how it works. Yeah.
31:04
Before I start breaking the rule.
31:07
Yeah. It's like it's you got you got
31:08
to learn how to play the instrument before you just dive
31:11
into like whatever you think is good because it's.
31:13
Yeah, it helps to learn the saxophone before you hop right
31:16
into a jazz riff where you're going to be improving a lot.
31:18
Yeah, it's like you don't need to know what the notes are.
31:20
It's jazz. Well, I think it helps.
31:23
Sometimes it's actually OK to know what they are.
31:26
Do you want to talk about the films that they talked about
31:28
most while you were in film school?
31:30
Yeah, and I won't take too long with it because, I mean, the
31:33
best way to learn from these films is to watch these films.
31:36
Yeah, good call. So first up, I think everyone
31:40
would pretty much agree with this Citizen Kane 1941.
31:43
What's that movie? Just kidding.
31:45
I think most people have heard of it, even if they don't know
31:47
it. And Orson Welles was 25 when he
31:51
Co wrote, directed, starred in, produced everything right for
31:55
this film. So obviously if you're over 25
31:58
and you haven't done all of that for world renowned film.
32:02
What are you doing? What am I doing anyway?
32:09
It's okay. Just wait till you're 40 and
32:11
then start a podcast. Everything is gonna be all right
32:13
for you. Everything will go podcast is.
32:14
Even a thing by then, so. So just start one now so it's
32:18
established by the time you're. Very. 40 and can't take Chris.
32:21
You need the longevity. On yeah, no.
32:23
Citizen Kane. Great.
32:24
Citizen Kane is really, really solid.
32:27
Pay attention if you're going to watch it and you want to take
32:30
things from it. The things that are most excited
32:31
about it are the Atrios grower lighting, which is the the
32:34
classic noir style lighting, multiple focal planes, which
32:39
wasn't really used much until that point, allowing things in
32:41
the foreground and background both to be in focus at the same
32:43
time. Very unique low angle shots that
32:46
emphasized power dynamics and obviously the the big changes in
32:52
lighting that led to that very dramatic noir look and.
32:56
He was a radio guy. Orson Welles.
32:59
Yeah, he was a radio guy. He was radio 1st and took a
33:01
crash course in in camera work and he didn't know that he
33:05
wasn't supposed to do all the things that he was doing when he
33:08
made the movie. He.
33:08
Didn't know he wasn't supposed to have the camera that low to
33:10
the ground. He's like, well I need to see
33:11
this. Yeah, he was just, he just kind
33:13
of approached it because he was he, he came from radio and he
33:16
didn't know what he was doing. This is this is what I need.
33:18
This needs to be cross checked. I'm just totally riffing.
33:21
Here a bit off. Based on something that I said.
33:23
So yeah, double check. I'll maybe I'll listen to myself
33:26
back on this and I'll double check him, put a link in the
33:28
comments, anything I can find there.
33:29
But it it's, you know, curiosity is really important.
33:32
But to be fair, Greg Toland is the cinematographer on it.
33:38
There we go. Just so we know.
33:39
Let's also give some credit there.
33:41
Sweet. OK, Seven Samurai 1954, Akira
33:44
Kurosawa and Azakazu Nakai for cinematography.
33:50
And it's the. Original Get the Gang Together
33:52
movie. Well, it's telling like the
33:55
whole story of like the idea of, you know, samurai a day in the
34:00
life of. So basically all those get ready
34:03
with me videos on Instagram were just new iterations of this.
34:07
I'm pretty sure that's what you're supposed to take from it.
34:11
Raked over the coals for that anyway.
34:13
That's all you need to know. There it is.
34:15
The number one thing there is that he was one of the first to
34:18
really implement multiple camera angles filming the same thing.
34:22
So he was able to really originate that cut on action
34:27
moment and then even get tighter and closer on certain actionable
34:31
moments. You got like zoomed in and and
34:33
this forced perspective to to make the audience look exactly
34:36
where you want them to with it being the exact same shot for
34:40
the first time without having to restage everything, which was
34:42
really cool and really interesting.
34:44
He also has the idea of is this the every frame?
34:48
Yeah, every frame is a painting, which is which is important.
34:53
Every frame you should be paying attention to the composition.
34:55
Yeah, 24 second. That's a lot of paintings in a
34:58
movie, but that's OK. Just keep painting.
35:00
Just keep painting, it'll be fine, OK?
35:02
Psycho 1960 classic for multiple reasons, but it was a lot of new
35:07
point of view shots that had that voyeuristic feel to it.
35:12
And oh, and the cinematographer John L Russell also used a lot
35:16
of dramatic lighting and high contrast, but use those shadows
35:19
to intentionally obscure information which you didn't
35:22
really see a ton of previously. It was just for either a
35:26
dramatic effect or because they don't know how to light
35:28
something. I'm kidding.
35:29
I don't think every movie right or not, that's what was going
35:33
on, but could. Have been.
35:35
Could have been and then fun little fact that I did not even
35:38
know before I read this and did verify it so that I'm not lying
35:43
to people on the Internet. The shower scene.
35:46
The approximately like 60 seconds shower scene where the
35:48
death actually happens. Oh, spoiler alert.
35:52
And that's in the very beginning of the movie.
35:53
I don't know if that's giving it not very beginning, but early on
35:56
1st 3rd anyway. There are 78 camera setups for
36:00
that 160 ish second scene and 52 cuts.
36:05
Holy cow. So if you want to talk about
36:07
fast edits, there you go. Nice.
36:09
I wonder if that would make just a good vertical reel then that's
36:14
Hitchcock was like just so far ahead of his time.
36:17
He knew, he knew we're going to tie all these back to Instagram.
36:20
Just you wait, maybe a few of them for TikTok, Who knows?
36:23
OK, Barry Lyndon, 1975, Kubrick and John Alcott on
36:26
cinematography lit the entire thing with candles, somewhat for
36:31
intention, but also somewhat because they were filming in a
36:33
lot of historic buildings and didn't want to damage it with
36:35
really heavy lighting equipment. But they ended up having to use
36:38
NASA lenses, which is quote UN quote, NASA lenses because
36:41
they're actually NASA lenses. They're just Zeiss lenses that
36:43
NASA did use to take photos of the moon, which is super cool
36:47
and interesting. Obviously there are also a lot
36:50
of things there. The the entire cinematography
36:53
and and palette design and everything was based on the like
36:56
Rococo revival ish artists which is a whole artistic movement I
37:01
won't go into right now. But it is really cool.
37:03
I think very pastel painting, like pastoral views and smooth S
37:08
curving lines and with a little bit of additional surrealism and
37:11
political satire. Yeah, because why not?
37:14
I remember that film like it has one shot where they're zooming
37:18
out for, or was it zooming in? No, I can't remember, damn it.
37:22
But it was a it was a extreme zoom and very slow.
37:27
But as it's going on, you're it just keeps getting more and more
37:30
interesting and you're like, oh, this is an amazing shot.
37:32
It's really cool they do fun things.
37:34
You can do such weird fun things if you're just not afraid to
37:37
break the rules a little bit sometime or just try something
37:39
new. Don't even think of it as
37:40
breaking the rules, in case that makes you feel nervous.
37:43
Blade Runner, 1982. Nice.
37:46
Which is a very, very popular one.
37:48
Again, that noir, neo noir. She is squirrel lighting, that
37:54
kind of heavily contrasted style.
37:57
But they were one of the first really well done or as well
38:01
executed methods of adding a bunch of environmental factors
38:06
to add so much texture to your frames like smoke and fog and
38:09
rain and all these buzzing neon lights and all that stuff.
38:12
It was really interesting the way they added composition to
38:14
it. So totally worth checking out.
38:16
And then No Country for Old Men 2007 Coen brothers and Rodger
38:22
Deakins. And I will say Rodger Deakins is
38:23
kind of the hero there, 'cause he also has like 1917 and The
38:26
Big Lebowski and Shawshank Redemption and a lot of other
38:29
fun stuff. The lot of more modern stuff
38:31
since then too. But really, really solid
38:33
cinematographer who I admire quite a bit.
38:35
That's. Pretty modern for that to be
38:37
covered in your class. Well, you'll notice it stops at
38:40
2007 because, well, I graduated film school.
38:45
No, not in 2007, but pretty darn close to 2007.
38:48
Oh, there we go. Yeah.
38:49
So. So they probably might be
38:51
updating that and there's. Probably some new ones they
38:53
might add now. They might add a few more Wes
38:55
Anderson films in there, I suppose.
38:57
But, you know, super cool. Yeah, well, right on.
38:59
Well, thanks for that. Shall we move on to our Featured
39:02
Filmmaker of the Week? I think so.
39:04
Awesome. Our feature filmmaker of the
39:06
featured film Makers of the Week are Cody Esquivel and Alex
39:12
Tracer, and they actually sent us a voice memo, so I'm just
39:14
going to play that for us. Awesome.
40:03
It sounds like they're out there hustling. 14 year old Cinemati
40:07
step aside, Orson Welles. Oh yes.
40:09
Somebody even younger is coming. Yeah, that's awesome.
40:12
If. Anyone's older than that, you
40:14
should just feel bad about yourself for being behind not.
40:17
At. All.
40:19
But that is really solidly impressive, 1 at 14 to know
40:23
you're that passionate about something already, and two, to
40:26
actually be pursuing the skill sets to do it.
40:28
So kudos to Alex and thank you so much Cody, for sending that
40:31
in. Yeah.
40:32
And if you want to submit to be our Filmmaker of the Week, go to
40:35
indiefilmpodcast.com/submit. And if you've made it this far
40:40
in the podcast, you really should like subscribe, follow
40:45
whatever it says on whatever platform that you're ingesting
40:48
this information. Whatever will potentially notify
40:51
you in the future, there's another episode that hopefully
40:54
we can keep a little a little bit more concise.
40:56
Yeah, absolutely. We're excited to hear or we're
40:59
excited to share next week when we talk about some sound.
41:03
Sound concerns, which will be Chuck's time to shine.
41:06
So you don't want to. Miss it?
41:07
I'm excited about it. All right, Well, shall we
41:08
succinctly say farewell? Sounds wonderful.
41:10
Bye