Latest / The Living Waters Podcast / Ep. 320 - How to Grieve Well

Transcript

Ep. 320 - How to Grieve Well · The Living Waters Podcast

• 1:04
  Speaker 1: We do live in I mean obviously a very broken world, and God uses this brokenness.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: He uses these sufferings and these sorrows and all of these for His purposes.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: And so once we embrace that, that this didn't happen apart from God's will, that in some mysterious way this was God's will, now we can understand that God means for us to do something with it, understand that God means for us to do something with it, and that's like I said before, to turn it outward toward others in love and in service, to know that God is calling me to something through my grief.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: And so I know that if I spend too much time focused on what I've lost, that will distract me.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: God has duties for me to carry out here in this world.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: He has things that he means for me to accomplish things in this world.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: He has things that he means for me to accomplish, things that only I can accomplish.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: My grief becomes part of that story, but it isn't meant to waylay me and keep me from those things God has called me to, and I think we can at times get stuck in this cycle of sorrow.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: What one person referred to me as?
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: She told me it was a grief vortex where you just kind of get sucked down into this thing.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: And then for days or weeks or months, you find you haven't been doing what God has called you to do.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: And so you know, embracing the sorrow, understanding that God means for you to carry it, that the sorrow is meant to make you a better person, a holier Christian, more like Christ, but then also not to end there, but to motivate you to serve God all the more.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: And then, all the while we know that by faith, we can understand.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: This is a light, momentary affliction that even while I feel such deep grief and pain here from the perspective of eternity, I will look back on even my hardest day here, even the day I said goodbye to my son.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: All of these things I'll look back and say, compared to this, that was a light, momentary affliction which just tells us how great the glory to come will be, how great heaven will be, how great it will be to be with Christ forever.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: Nobody likes change.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: Change is hard, change is good.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: Just a few popular cliches that we're hoping you'll buy into today, friends, because things are a-changin' around here.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: And no, we're not getting rid of Ray, mark and Oscar, as you've all been desperately hoping for, though that can definitely be arranged.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: To tell you about the change, friends, because he's a changey kind of guy.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: Oscar.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: Navarro.
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: How am I a changey kind of guy?
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: Well, we'll talk about that later.
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: You got a different shit.
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: Oh, that's true.
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we're really excited for 2025.
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: We're making some adjustments to the podcast.
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: Essentially, what we want to do is take these episodes and extend them a little bit maybe 45 minutes to an hour long, to give us a little bit more time to dive deeper into the subjects that we're talking about with that same lighthearted feel that we tend to bring that you guys listen to and love.
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: So thank you so much for that.
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: In addition to that, what we're gonna do is we're gonna release that episode long form episode once a week and then, on top of that, we're gonna release a condensed, highlighted version of the same episode that will be about 10 to 15 minutes long, and the reason why we wanna do this is because we've heard feedback from a lot of you that you guys loved the content and that you go back and listen to it a second time to get sort of the meat out of it, and so we simply want to serve you that meat.
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: This became a food metaphor really quickly.
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: We want to serve you that meat on a platter.
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: We want you to have that rich, dense content so you can enjoy the experience of the podcast in one episode and then get the condensed version in that second episode.
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: We are super excited to see and to hear back from you on how that blesses you, Right.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: Mark, let us know.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: Every reference to food, by the way, on the podcast is a cloaked shout out to Chef Lance.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: Oh yes, he's a Hara, our good brother.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: Alright, friends, now you know about the change.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: I'm sure you'll love it.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: More of us, but less of us.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: Kind of, but more of us.
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: More of us, less of you.
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: Less of me.
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: The highlight is just cutting.
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: EZ out.
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: Ez must decrease Less gravy, less me, less.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: All right friends, time for a cool, classy comment.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: This is from Alana Nort.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: Subject hello.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: Thank you from Canada.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: You'll know the significance of that in a little bit.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: Hello from a recent listener in British Columbia, canada.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: I found your podcast a little while ago.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Your podcast has been something I've been listening to nearly every morning while playing with my toddler Since God led me to it, and I have found both comfort and conviction in listening to your biblical conversations.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: Thank you for continuing to point me and others back to the divine Word of God and reminding us to structure our entire lives around His glory and His revealed will to us.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: Thank you again for the work you put into sharing the scriptures with your listeners.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: We pray that God will continue to bless your endeavors richly in Christ.
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: Alana, are you guys hitting each other.
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: No, Ray's hitting.
• 6:16
  Speaker 4: Well, Mark hit me back.
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: No, you hit me right there and-.
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: Mark touched my screen and it all disappears.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Living Violence Podcast.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: All right, friends, no radically revolutionary resource of our own today, because we want to focus in on a very important resource that our guest has written.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: You heard me mention Canada from one of our listeners.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: Today we have a special guest with us, all the way from Canada through wonderful revolutionary technology.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: We have our brother Tim Challies, with us.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: Many of you are familiar with Tim.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: He is a pastor, a noted speaker, a prolific author of several books and numerous articles.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: He's also a pioneer in the Christian blogosphere.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: Tens of thousands of people visit chalicecom each day, which makes it one of the most widely read and recognized Christian blogs in the world.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: Tim and his lovely family reside in Toronto, canada, canada.
• 7:17
  Speaker 5: C-A-N-A-D.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: Why did I put Toronto?
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: Ontario, canada, wow.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: Oh man, I need a brain.
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: Sorry, tim, you should have just said Canada, I know.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: Ontario Right Tim Ontario Toronto.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: Ontario Canada Ontario Right Tim Ontario Toronto.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: Ontario, canada, you got it.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: Oh see, I did get it right Toronto.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: Ontario, Canada.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: Okay, there we go.
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: You mentioned numerous articles.
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: Can I point out and Tim correct me if I'm wrong here you started out by writing an article a day.
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: Every day, a new article, isn't that right?
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't start out that way.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, I started a writing streak that way, posting something new every day, and that's been going for maybe 21 years or something.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: Now it's been a long stretch.
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: That's amazing.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: Wow, that's great, tim.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: Well, so many of our listeners, no question have been impacted hugely by what you've written, and we're really, really honored to have you on today.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: You were just at our church at least mine and Mark's church Kindred Community Church, and it was such an honor to have you.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: You spoke at our men's conference, and the conference was titled Seasons of Sorrow, the Pain of Loss and the Comfort of God, and I've also been blessed to have a connection with you, though the first time we met was at Kindred when you were there just recently, but I have a connection with you through the ministry that I serve on the board of Gospel Partners Media Many know it as Wretched, and now we have the Fortis Institute, and so it's been such a blessing to have you as a part of all that, brother.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: So thanks for being with us today.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it was a joy to be at your church and it's been a joy to be part of the Fortis Institute as well.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: I love what's been building there and excited for the future of it.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, looking forward to all that God's going to develop through that.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: Well, we're excited to have you on, and excited especially to talk about your book Seasons of Sorrow, and I'd love for you to just kind of give us the backdrop to what birthed this book.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: I was reading through it and even just at the very outset, so struck by the opening story.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: But I'd love for you to fill our listeners in on that, and we'll get into it.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: There's some books nobody wants to write and yet you feel like you've got this opportunity to write it and that was very much the case with Seasons of Sorrow, like you've got this opportunity to write it, and that was very much the case with Seasons of Sorrow.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: And the book begins on November 3rd 2020, which was the evening that my son very unexpectedly went to be with the Lord.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: He was a student at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, newly engaged, doing well in life, preparing for what he thought would be a lifetime in pastoral ministry, and then, just in an instant, his heart failed and he was gone, and so that launched us into the season of sorrow, of deep suffering, and because I've been writing for all this time, writing is the way I think, writing is the way I meditate, writing is the way I grapple with what's going on in life, and so I didn't really know what to do in the situation, but to write, and the writing then later became this book, seasons of Sorrow.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, as a father, as I hear you just even mention the loss of your son, and again, you talked about it at the conference you spoke at.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: It just unearths things in me that I don't want unearthed.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: I can't imagine experiencing it.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: Just the thought of it moves me emotionally.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: But to actually live it out and experience it, brother, I can't even begin to imagine.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: And thanks for your willingness not only to put it in writing but also even to continue to talk about the story, because I know that it helps so many people.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: I know the guys have questions for you, but I want to first start by asking you how your experience and even writing the book shaped your perspective on the sovereignty of God.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: Right away.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: We knew, my wife and I, my daughters we knew we would be challenged with is God really sovereign even in this?
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: And our lives had been very comfortable to this point.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: We had really suffered very little, and so we believed in God's sovereignty.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: We proclaimed our trust or our belief in God's sovereignty, and yet that sovereignty seemingly had only ever brought us good, or largely only ever brought us such good things, and so we knew there'd be a challenge here.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Will we continue to believe that God is sovereign and will we continue even to find comfort or rejoice in his sovereignty now that his sovereignty has decreed something we love?
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: Very much has been taken from us, and I'm thankful that God really did anchor us in that truth that he is sovereign and therefore even a loss as difficult as crushing as this, even that was within the jurisdiction of His sovereignty, and we could bow the knee before Him and say that God did no wrong even in taking one we love so much.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I often think of that utterance from Job, you know, when he fell before the Lord and said God has given, god has taken away.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: Blessed be the name of the Lord, naked.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: I came from my mother's womb Naked.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: I shall return.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: He started with, but the fact that he didn't charge God with the wrong is so key for us as believers, in the midst of tragic times like that.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: Us as believers, in the midst of tragic times like that.
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I love what you just said, tim.
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: One thing that I experienced a loss as well, seven years ago, last month, and in my readings what I realized is that there's a difference between our modern way of thinking the good life versus the way the ancients thought about life, and their theology of suffering didn't cause them to question the sovereignty or goodness of God, but rather it drew them deeper into the sovereignty and goodness of God.
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: And so, tim, do you think we have a distorted view of suffering, a bad theology of suffering in our day, and age.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: I think that's going to be a perennial problem.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: Every generation is going to have to grapple with it, and certainly we don't really know what we believe until we enter into an experience where our beliefs are challenged and so much of our theology we form in the abstract.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: That's well and good.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: But then when we go into these situations, it is deeply challenging and we will then determine do we really believe these things?
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: Will we still find God worthy of our worship now that he has taken something from us?
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: And I have this distinct memory from that very first evening.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: So Nick was in Louisville, kentucky.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: We were back here in Toronto.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: We were far away from the situation as it was unfolding and we received the news.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: A doctor called and said that he had done everything he could.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: There was nothing more they could do for Nick.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: One of the first thoughts that came to me in that moment was that Satan was going to use this as well and that he wasn't going to take a rest from what he does just because we were suffering.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: In fact, he might double down his attacks on us.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: And I knew there would be opportunities right in that moment and in that evening and in the weeks to come where we could sin against God, we could curse God's name, and it was very sobering in that moment to be able to just even just breathe out to God.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: Please don't let me sin in this.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: Even just breathe out to God.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: Please don't let me sin in this.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: I want to pass through this trial without shaking my fist at the heavens as if God had done wrong, as if I could in any way charge God with having done wrong.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: You know, Ray, a lot of times people get to that place where they're shaken by God allowing trauma and grief and pain in people's lives.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: You deal with that a lot of times.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: When you're out sharing the gospel with people, I mean that's the almost go-to.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: Why does a God of love allow so much suffering in the world?
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: How do you typically respond to that?
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: Well, I like to talk about the man who built his house on rock and the man who built his house on sand with the ungodly and say those who hear the sayings of Jesus and obey them are like a wise man who built his house on rock and those who don't they ignore the sayings of Jesus, are like a foolish man who built his house on sand and when the floods came up, it collapsed because it was a bad foundation.
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: I've got a question for our brother here.
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: I lost both my parents a number of years ago and I handled grief in a way that was effective for me.
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: I bawled my eyes out and then I said to myself I will not go up grief street again because it's a dead end, because I found myself thinking about the past and it just so heavily sat on me I could hardly stand it.
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: So I thought no slamming the doors, I'm turning around, I'm not going up grief street.
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: I've told some people that that are grieving lost loved ones and they said that was very effective for them to be able to shut the door and not go down grief street.
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: David, when he lost his son, his baby, stood up, washed his face, combed his hair and just carried on with life, he wouldn't go up grief street.
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: So the question I've got for you is do you think that's a male thing, or do females grieve differently than men?
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: I'm struck that David washed his face and combed his hair and went and worshipped as well, and so he turned his grief outward toward the Lord and, I think just very much, submitted his grief to the Lord.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: He had prayed, he had done all he could do as a human being and then determined no God is sovereign and God is good, and so his purposes, even in this, must be good.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: And so far be it for me to now rail against God in any way.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: And you asked whether it's a that that sort of not going up grief street is a guy thing.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: I think it can be, but I think there's it's more of personality thing.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: Different personalities deal with grief in a different way.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: Some people deal with it in very practical ways.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: Some people need to think their way through it or talk their way through it.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: Some people read lots of books.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: Some people can't read any books.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: Some people go straight to scripture.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Some people just struggle, even relating to God for some time.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: And so I think a lot of it is just different personalities and I think we can free people to grieve in different ways, provided that their grief isn't leading them into sin, and at some point we do need to progress back into a new kind of normal and be willing to leave those griefs, or at least the sense in which they overwhelm you or define you.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: Leave that in the past and press on trusting that God has called you to carry this grief and even to do something with it.
• 17:49
  Speaker 5: That's great, thank you.
• 17:50
  Speaker 5: You know, earlier today I had offloaded the photos from my phone onto my computer you know, we do it twice a year or whatever it may be and I came across photos of my mother and, as you guys know, I lost my mother four months ago, on July 7th, and I was just looking at these photos of her just a day before she had passed, and I was thinking about what we're talking about here today right, how to grieve?
• 18:16
  Speaker 5: Well, right, because what we don't mourn is those who don't have any hope.
• 18:22
  Speaker 5: And I think one of the processes, like what you're talking about here, ray, is to embrace grief.
• 18:29
  Speaker 5: There is a time for sorrow and it's okay to be sorrowful, it is okay to mourn, it is okay to look back, to think back and to remember what God has done.
• 18:44
  Speaker 5: And I've met so many people and I found a trap in my own heart and mind of allowing her last chapter almost to be my last chapter.
• 18:55
  Speaker 5: But it can't be.
• 18:56
  Speaker 5: We can't allow somebody else's last chapter to be our last chapter and people become incapacitated and handicapped, perhaps let's use the word even retarded, where they're not fully able to be who God has commanded, called, chosen them to be in order to move forward.
• 19:19
  Speaker 5: 2 Corinthians 1, it says blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all of our affliction.
• 19:31
  Speaker 5: You know we think of Spafford who wrote you know it is well with my soul and pinning these words as history would tell us and I don't know how historically accurate it is, but writing the words to the song when peace like a river attendeth my way, when sorrows like sea billows roll, it is well.
• 19:50
  Speaker 5: It is well, right, it is well with my soul over the very area by which his four daughters right had died in the midst of the shipwreck.
• 20:01
  Speaker 5: Is it his wife as well that?
• 20:03
  Speaker 5: passed at the same time she made it.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: She made it yeah.
• 20:06
  Speaker 5: She made it Grieving.
• 20:09
  Speaker 5: Well, the world does not understand that there is a hopelessness attached to this.
• 20:16
  Speaker 5: And you think of almost this purity, this oil that comes forward, that cannot be birthed in any other way than in the midst of sorrow, in the midst of grief, in the midst of mourning, knowing that it comes from the hand of God.
• 20:35
  Speaker 5: And, of course, we live in a fallen world and, living in a fallen world with fallen creatures, we make fallen decisions.
• 20:40
  Speaker 5: I get that, I understand that.
• 20:42
  Speaker 5: But coming from the hand of God, as mercy, from God to create a way in order that we might fully be able to walk in the work which he has prepared beforehand and to worship Him in a way where we never would have been able to otherwise.
• 20:58
  Speaker 5: This is a reflection of being able to grieve well, as God has commanded and designed us to do so, but we need not run away and abstain from grieving.
• 21:08
  Speaker 5: It can be a very difficult thing, but it can also be a very beautiful thing in the midst of it.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, tim, I love the fact that you titled the book Seasons of Sorrow and, based on what you just said a little bit ago too, sorrow is not one size fits all.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: Grieving is not one size fits all.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: We're all different in our personality.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: Ray conveyed the way that he handled it.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: Others go through it intensely, some for a short amount of time, some for a long amount of time.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: So it's important for us to remember that.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: But I want to share a quote from the book and I'd love you to elaborate on this.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: Carved into the palm of God's hand, nestled in his care, I'm safe whatever harm befalls me, not because of my faithfulness, but because of his.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: Well, in our losses and we were just talking about this in our losses we have to go to something, someone who will give meaning to them.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: And if I was an atheist, if I didn't believe in God at all, I could find no meaning, no purpose in my losses.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: If I believed in some God but not the God of the Bible, I still couldn't find meaning or purpose in my losses.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: But because we are known and loved by our God, the God who created us, the God who gives us purpose, the God who loves us and the God who has called us to serve Him, we can find great meaning in our losses.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: So we can get very distracted by asking the why questions why would God do this?
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: And I think very little good ever comes out of that.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: God doesn't reveal the whys to us in most cases, but what he does help us see is that God means to use these things.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: He means to change us and make us better and allow us to serve his purposes.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: And yeah, so that's the comfort and the duty we find in our sorrows to take these things and to turn them outward, to embrace them as part of God's purposes and to bear them for this light, momentary affliction until we finally do experience that great weight of glory that's to come Wow.
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: I resonate a lot with.
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: There's a section in your book that I think, if I remember correctly, you're talking about what would have been his wedding day and you use the phrase grief caught you unaware, if I remember correctly, and that phrase really stood out to me because that was my experience Lost my little sister and, like the day she passed away, I was in action mode the day of her funeral.
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: I think I was in action mode.
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: My mom, she grieves the day she passed away.
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: She grieves certain things and I grieve different days.
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: My days of grief are so random.
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: It's like random moments where I would have called her and celebrated something, random moments where a song will come on.
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: I'll remember singing that song with her.
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: It's like grief, that idea that grief caught us unaware.
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: And something about grieving well for me is recognizing that we are in this, here and not yet.
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: Season of life, kingdom of God, god's kingdom, is both here and not yet.
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: And so grief, first off, it's a form of love for the ones that we lost.
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: Every time I grieve my little sister, sure it hurts and it's sorrowful, but it's also remembering the beauty of who she was, the relationship, and not forgetting that, not letting go and forgetting that it's a celebration of who she was, but in addition to that, it's also a recognition that this world is not yet how God intended it to be.
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: And so those moments of being caught unaware with grief can also, to your point, tim, turn us to the promises of God, to the reality that he suffered on the cross, jesus, the worst suffering, the fullness of the wrath of God, so that one day our grief would come to an end, every tear would be wiped away, every body healed of cancer, everything restored.
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: And so, practically speaking, tim, how do you preach to yourself in those moments when you're driving down the street, when you're at a grocery store, when that song comes on and you are not expecting to experience grief?
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: that song comes on and you were not expecting to experience grief.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah well, we do live in, I mean, obviously a very broken world, and God uses this brokenness.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: He uses these sufferings and these sorrows and all of these for his purposes.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: And so once we embrace that, that this didn't happen apart from God's will, that in some mysterious way this was God's will, now we can understand that God means for us to do something with it and that's like I said before, to turn it outward toward others in love and in service, to know that God is calling me to something through my grief.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: And so I know that if I spend too much time focused on what I've lost, that will distract me.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: God has duties for me to carry out here in this world.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: He has things that he means for me to accomplish, things that only I can accomplish.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: My grief becomes part of that story, but it isn't meant to waylay me and keep me from those things God has called me to.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: And I think we can at times get stuck in this cycle of sorrow.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: What one person referred to me as she told me it was a grief vortex, where you just kind of get sucked down into this thing and then for days or weeks or months, you find you haven't been doing what God has called you to do.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: And so you know, embracing the sorrow, understanding that God means for you to carry it, that this sorrow is meant to make you a better person, a holier Christian, more like Christ, but then also not to end there but to motivate you to serve God all the more.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: And then all the while we know that by faith we can understand.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: This is a light, momentary affliction that even while I feel such deep grief and pain here from the perspective of eternity, I will look back on even my hardest day here, even the day I said goodbye to my son.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: All of these things I'll look back and say, compared to this, that was a light, momentary affliction which just tells us how great the glory to come will be, how great heaven will be, how great it will be to be with Christ forever.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: Wow, perspective.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Perspective is everything in the life of the believer and perspective anchored to truth.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: You know, tim, you said a word twice now in your recent responses to us and I'd love for Ray to touch on this.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: But you use the word duty, ray.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: Duty and grief.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: Oftentimes, when people are grieving, when they're in seasons of sorrow and devastation, the last thought to come to their mind is duty.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: In fact, a lot of times when people are going through difficult and traumatizing situations, they end up feeling like they have no duty to do anything.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: They're kind of like, you know, on sort of a hiatus now from their call as a believer.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: But the importance of, even in sorrow, recognizing that we have responsibilities as Christians, mainly to honor the Lord and even to continue to preach the gospel.
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I wouldn't call it duty.
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: I'd call it duty because I speak correctly.
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: But we do, we have a duty, we.
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: We go through times of terrible sorrow, and the reason it happens is so that we may comfort those who are going through similar sorrows and we tend to think, oh, that's those that surround me, but, um, we need to lift up our eyes and look on the fields.
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: I think the the words of jesus where he said behold, um, lift up your eyes and look on the fields, they.
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: I think the words of Jesus where he said behold, lift up your eyes and look on the fields.
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: They're white and ready to harvest.
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: That word behold is like a little trumpet, a little heralding heralding when scripture uses it to say something important is coming.
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: And then he said lift up your eyes.
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: And we can tend to be so caught up in our little world and what we're suffering and what we're going through, we forget the world is ready for what we've got.
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: The fields are white, under harvest.
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: The problem is there's not enough laborers.
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: That's what Jesus said.
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: And so we need to pray for laborers and remember, when we go through grief and trials that just want to rip our soul apart, we've got a house built on rock and when those storms come, we don't collapse.
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: We rest in the promises of God, but the ungodly crash.
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: They run to alcohol, run to suicide, and their grief is nothing compared to what we've got, because we've got God's promise that all things work together for good.
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: We've got a sovereignty to lean on.
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: So grief should drive us into the irksome task of evangelism reaching out to those who are still in the shadow of death.
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: Wow.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: Amen.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: Mark can I?
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: just add something to that that I think is so important is to understand the evangelistic opportunities that come through our grief.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: And one old author I love to read.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: He did most of his writing back in the 1800s and I was reading him very shortly after Nick died, and one of the things he wanted to make absolutely clear is that oftentimes, at least as it seems to him, god brings these times of suffering and sorrow so we can prove to the world that we will stand strong in Christ even when things are taken away from us.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: Because there's this tremendous evangelistic opportunity to show to unbelievers I don't just love God because of what he does for me.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: I don't love Him just because of what he's given to me.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: I love Him so much that even if he takes, I will continue to love Him.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: And so we show the unbelieving world.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: We also show just broken or wavering Christians the same thing that in my sorrow I will go on loving God.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: I'll continue to praise His name.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: I'll lift my hands in worship.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: Nothing can take that sense of joy.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: It might be a grieving joy, but nothing will take away the joy of my salvation and my trust in God, no matter what is pulled away from me.
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah, where would we go?
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: He alone has the words of eternal life.
• 31:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah what are your options?
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not going back to Egypt.
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: Amen.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: Tim, I'm so glad you elaborated on that.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: I can't count how many times I've heard testimonies of unbelievers saying I saw this Christian, and what they were doing, in light of what they should have been doing in the midst of this tragedy, just blew my mind.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: It was so foreign, it was so otherworldly that I had to explore this Christianity thing even more.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: So much validity to that.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: Mark Tim talked about looking at devastating things as momentary light afflictions.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: Man, that's foreign to the world.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: It is right.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: How do we do that?
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: How do we get to a place where we can look at something as tragic as what Tim went through, as tragic as me, watching my mom plead with me to shoot her and put her out of her misery when she was dying of cancer?
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: How do we do that?
• 31:58
  Speaker 5: Well, it's having a big picture of God's purpose for mankind, right, this life is not about a white picket fence.
• 32:06
  Speaker 5: You know, hope, right, our hope is not in this world.
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: Christ is our hope.
• 32:09
  Speaker 5: You know Elizabeth Elliot after the passing of her husband, she said one thing is perfectly sure God's story never ends in ashes.
• 32:17
  Speaker 5: God's story never ends in ashes, right?
• 32:20
  Speaker 5: So God is going to complete the work which he started, and that story includes mountaintops and valleys and difficult times.
• 32:29
  Speaker 5: Victor Frankl, he was a Holocaust survivor.
• 32:36
  Speaker 5: He said, in some ways, suffering ceases to be suffering at the moment it finds a meaning.
• 32:40
  Speaker 5: Think about that.
• 32:41
  Speaker 5: Suffering ceases to be a suffering when you find meaning in the midst of it.
• 32:44
  Speaker 5: Right, we can go through difficult times and we begin to think that there is no hope.
• 32:50
  Speaker 5: Right, I'm hopeless and I'm helpless.
• 32:52
  Speaker 5: But what is the Lord doing behind the scenes?
• 32:55
  Speaker 5: Is it enough to know that God knows?
• 32:59
  Speaker 5: Is it enough to know that God knows what you're going through?
• 33:03
  Speaker 5: And the more we understand the attributes and the character of God, we know that God is not playing games with us.
• 33:09
  Speaker 5: God did not take a vacation, he was not on a sabbatical when that thing took place inside my life.
• 33:16
  Speaker 5: God is able to make all things work together for good, in fact, those dark pieces that are forming the overall picture of the puzzle.
• 33:25
  Speaker 5: Right, we need black pieces in a picture.
• 33:28
  Speaker 5: If a picture is to be beautiful, it needs to include those dark pieces.
• 33:33
  Speaker 5: Well, god is able to make those dark pieces and strategically and specifically paint them into the story.
• 33:41
  Speaker 5: We stop so often with those black pieces and we do not see that 15,000 foot picture.
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: Right, god is above, if you would, our parade, our difficulty, and we see one float at a time, and if we just simply trust and hold on.
• 34:00
  Speaker 5: I think it was Corrie Ten Boom who said when she enters into, when you're on a train and you're entering through a dark tunnel and you can't see what's happening, she doesn't throw the ticket overboard.
• 34:10
  Speaker 5: You trust the conductor's going to get you to the other side and, as we talked earlier, going back to Egypt is not an option.
• 34:17
  Speaker 5: He alone holds the words to eternal life, and I've held on to that so often over the course of my life.
• 34:24
  Speaker 5: So we do not lose heart.
• 34:27
  Speaker 5: Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day, for this light, momentary affliction, as Tim said, is preparing us for an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison.
• 34:40
  Speaker 5: Find purpose in your pain by pointing people to Christ and by pointing yourself to Christ.
• 34:47
  Speaker 5: Every moment, every day.
• 34:49
  Speaker 5: When you wake up, you go over to that mirror and you preach the gospel to you.
• 34:54
  Speaker 5: You preach the gospel and you're ready to preach the gospel to the person out on the streets.
• 35:00
  Speaker 5: Purpose in the pain.
• 35:02
  Speaker 5: Christ endured the pain for the joy that was set before him.
• 35:06
  Speaker 5: We can do the same, knowing that this is not our home.
• 35:08
  Speaker 5: Right, we are homesick for a home we've never been to.
• 35:11
  Speaker 5: We're in love with a God we've never seen.
• 35:13
  Speaker 5: We're in love with a voice we've never heard.
• 35:14
  Speaker 5: Right, we need him and God does.
• 35:17
  Speaker 5: Well.
• 35:17
  Speaker 5: He doesn't need wisdom or counsel, as we've talked about.
• 35:20
  Speaker 5: If he needed wisdom or counsel, you would not know about it.
• 35:22
  Speaker 5: Wisdom or counsel, as we've talked about.
• 35:23
  Speaker 5: If he needed wisdom or counsel, you would not know about it.
• 35:24
  Speaker 5: Right, it's like Sproul there's not one maverick molecule in the entire universe.
• 35:27
  Speaker 5: He's in control, he's in charge of everything.
• 35:28
  Speaker 5: So, having this lofty view of God, that he's in control, that he's orchestrating, that he's moving, that he knows what he's doing, it is enough.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: It is enough and it is well with my soul.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: Amen.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: You know, Tim, we talked about how different people grieve differently and I think sometimes it's easy for believers to become judgmental toward one another.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: In that right, you have the I-don't-want-to-think-about-it person, you have the other one who's just deep in the trenches of mourning and weeping, and we've often on the podcast talked about the significance of lament.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: The Psalms are full of lament.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: Is there a place for the believer in the midst of their lament to ask God questions?
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: Not to question God, but to ask God questions.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: And what does that look like?
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, certainly there can be, and I think a lot depends on what the questions are that you're asking and whether you expect God to reply.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: A lot of the questioning that happens in the Psalms are these questions that it's important to the psalmist to ask the question, but he may not receive any answer from God other than the answer God always gives, which is, trust me, right?
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: We've just been talking about that very thing.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: Is it enough to trust that God is who he is and to believe that, even if we don't get it, god gets it?
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: And I think we can ramp it up even a little bit further to say that someday, from the perspective of eternity, we will fully agree with what God did.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: We'll see why he did it, I presume.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: Agree with what God did.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: We'll see why he did it.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: I presume and we'll praise his name for it and know what we know by faith now that God does all things well, and so our God is so.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: He's proven himself so reliable.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: He's proven himself so loving and kind.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: He's proven that through the gospel.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: And so if we're going to entrust our souls to him, our eternal souls, then clearly we also ought to entrust to him our children and our parents and everyone else we love, and just believe that God will do all things well and all things for his glory.
• 37:34
  Speaker 5: Yeah, can I read a quick scripture?
• 37:36
  Speaker 5: We have it highlighted right, and there's a fear that the Bible has become an adult coloring book for a lot of us.
• 37:43
  Speaker 5: And we have all of our colors, we underline, we've got our rulers, everything's good.
• 37:47
  Speaker 5: But this is the living word.
• 37:49
  Speaker 5: I'll read it in a normal version, if you would, then I want to read it in the amplified version Trust in the Lord with all your heart, proverbs 3.
• 37:57
  Speaker 5: Lean not on your own understanding.
• 37:58
  Speaker 5: In all your ways, acknowledge him, him and he shall direct your paths.
• 38:12
  Speaker 5: Listen to the Amplified.
• 38:13
  Speaker 5: Lean on, trust in and be confident in the Lord with all your heart and mind, and do not rely on your own insight or understanding.
• 38:16
  Speaker 5: And all your ways, know, recognize and acknowledge him and he will direct and make straight and plain your paths.
• 38:24
  Speaker 5: Listen, spurgeon, I have learned to kiss the wave that throws me against the rock of ages.
• 38:29
  Speaker 5: Love that Catch.
• 38:30
  Speaker 5: That first part I learned right.
• 38:34
  Speaker 5: Did he learn just in the sanctuary?
• 38:36
  Speaker 5: No, he learned in the storm as well.
• 38:39
  Speaker 5: He learned to kiss the wave that throws him against the rock of ages.
• 38:45
  Speaker 5: There is not a safer place, there's not a better place to be than in the presence of God in the midst of that difficulty.
• 38:53
  Speaker 5: No need to fight it, no need to argue against it.
• 38:58
  Speaker 5: Yeah, no need to raise your fist against God.
• 39:00
  Speaker 5: We raise our hands to God.
• 39:03
  Speaker 5: We don't raise our fists to God.
• 39:04
  Speaker 5: We don't put Him in the dock.
• 39:05
  Speaker 5: He's not on trial, right.
• 39:07
  Speaker 5: We don't accuse Him of wrongdoing because he has never done anything wrong.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: Wow, you know it's interesting, Mark, as you were saying that, I was thinking back to when I was just a young kid or an unbeliever.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: It never crossed my mind when any tragedy happened in life that God wasn't real right.
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: But it reminded me too, Tim, of like what Satan was trying to tempt Job to do, and he referenced this when he spoke to God.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: He will surely curse you to your face, and it's amazing to see how believers sometimes have a greater temptation to want to deny the Lord or flee from Him.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: In those moments, and I think there is that satanic attack.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, Tim, you referenced Satan wanting to use this in an evil way.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: How can believers resist Satan in those moments of temptation, when they're in the midst of sorrow?
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: Satan in those moments of temptation when they're in the midst of sorrow, All by relying on God and preaching the truths of the gospel.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: Very shortly after Nick died, I had a friend get in touch and tell me a Christian friend, a genuine Christian friend, tell me you should let God know what you think of him right now.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: You should shake your fist at God a little bit and just be very blunt and honest with him and just let him know how mad you are at him for doing this.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: And I felt like that was somehow Satan was just using this person to tempt me to do that very thing, and I couldn't.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: All I could do is praise God, because I believe that God is holy and good and just and that he would never do wrong, could never do wrong, and I know that not because of anything I've experienced in my life.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: I know that because of the cross right.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: If we think of all the evil things that have ever happened in all of human history, surely nothing is more evil than the Son of God being put to death for sins.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: He didn't commit the perfect, put to death for sins he didn't commit.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: The perfect, sinless, faultless, blameless lamb of God being killed, murdered by people he had created, and yet God used that.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: God had planned that.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: That was just whatever God's hand and plan had predestined should take place.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: So God can use that most enormous, unspeakable of all horrors and he can have his hand in it, and he can use it to accomplish the greatest good we've ever known the salvation of God's people.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: Then, of course, God can use the lesser sorrows that you and I experience.
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: You bring up a good subject, which is how do we come alongside those who are grieving?
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: You just talked about not great advice, bad advice I don't wanna speak for you but advice that doesn't seem biblical or wise to take.
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: I think there are times where we need to avoid using cliches.
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: I think also, as the scriptures say I think you quoted it earlier there's a time to speak and a time to be quiet.
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: I think also, as the scriptures say I think you quoted earlier there's a time to speak and a time to be quiet.
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: I remember very specifically and that can be really hard to do, let's admit it can be really hard to do A friend of ours lost their four month baby and I was in the room we had to take that baby out of their hands and hand it away.
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: And then it's just me and the dad sitting there and he is just in the deepest of sorrows and in that moment I remember hauntingly he is like the Lord gives and takes away.
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: And then he says he shouldn't do that and I remember wanting to correct him.
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: I remember wanting to be like oh, take it easy, careful with where your mind goes in that moment.
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: But I just sensed now was not a time to speak, and so I just put my hands on him and I prayed for him and I was worried for his faith.
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: And then later on that day I'm driving him and his wife home from the hospital to go tell their four-year-old, and in the back seat I see him lean over, grab his wife's hand and say let's pray.
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: And he prayed a prayer of just trust and dependence on the sovereignty of God.
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: And so there's a time to speak and there's a time to be quiet.
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: There's a time to pray as we come along and weep with those who weep.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and you know, Tim, one of the most powerful portions of one of your messages at our conference was when you talked about what the church can do and what believers individually can do within the church for those that are suffering and going through times of deep grief.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: And, oscar, you make really good points.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: We need to be sensitive to that.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: But there are others also who are gun-shy.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: They don't want to say anything, they don't want to visit you because they don't want to disturb you or cause you more sorrow.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: So I'd love for you to hit on some of those points.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: What can people do?
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: Because many are listening right now and they're saying, man, I know someone who's going through a season and I don't know what to do.
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: I don't know what to say.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, first, don't run away.
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: So be present would be the more positive way of expressing that.
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: Some people do allow the awkwardness of grief to drive them away from people they should be able to comfort.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: And so be with people as you're able, try to tend to their very practical needs, especially if they've lost a child or a spouse, somebody who is very close to them.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: Grief can be really incapacitating and they may need help on very practical levels.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: And then bring scripture, because, ultimately, what else do we have but the words of God?
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: Human words can soothe to some degree, but scripture words can bring much more healing, much more soothing.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: And so bring the words of God as you're able, find scripture passages that will tend to that sorrow, and trust God to use them as he promises to do.
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: It will be present through his word.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I think then, maybe also we've talked about how our grief, as per 2 Corinthians 1, how our grief makes us able or equips us to love others.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: So maybe the closer your sorrow is to somebody else's sorrow, maybe the more you should feel some sort of obligation to be available to them.
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: That might not be rushing right to their house, but at least making yourself available as a resource to them.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: If you'd like to talk about these things or if you'd like to hear some of our experience, I think a lot of good can come from that.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: About a couple months after Nick died, we met with a couple in our neighborhood.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: We didn't know them before, but they had lost a child and processed it before the Lord, and it was so helpful to hear from them and to learn what God had taught them along the way.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: So they were simply able to minister to us the comfort that God had ministered to them.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: In other words, they fulfilled exactly what God had called them to do through their sorrow and their pain.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: Wow, you know, ray, we're touching a lot, obviously, on loss, because this is what Tim went through, but there's sorrow in other spheres as well, and you went through a deep season of sorrow that we talked about before on the podcast when you went through your agarophobia.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: I think it lasted, was it four years?
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: Five, five years Don't sound like sure.
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you'll never forget that.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: Fifth year too, I'm sure, but it's difficult for people to press on in the midst of that.
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: And so what tips would you give people just from your own experience in terms of what you did and things that the Lord taught you through His Word?
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: How do you keep going?
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, you were crippled, almost in a sense, in that you would freeze up, you couldn't have devotions with your family, but you didn't stop.
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: I couldn't eat a meal with my family.
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: It was that bad.
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: But you didn't stop.
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: I couldn't eat a meal with my family.
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: It was that bad.
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: The key is, when we go through fiery trials, is to long for the promises of God to be fulfilled in your life.
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: Nothing drives me to a deeper desire for heaven like hell on earth when things go bad.
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: It makes us long for the coming kingdom.
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: I read on um, I think it was reddit.
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: For some reason I started getting emails from reddit.
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: I must have clicked on something and I didn't mean to click, click on.
• 47:15
  Speaker 4: But I remember a guy says look, I'm so spiritually dry, I'm tempted to just give up this whole christian thing.
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: And I thought that was very telling.
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: This whole christian thing.
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: He's talking about treasure and earthen vessels, everlasting life, pleasure forevermore.
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: Give up heaven and get hell.
• 47:37
  Speaker 4: And so it was very telling.
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: Cs Lewis says has this world been so kind to you that you should leave it with regret?
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: There are better things ahead than any we leave behind.
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: And it's so true.
• 47:52
  Speaker 4: Grief and trials produce a precious longing for the coming kingdom.
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: And so I look back and say with a psalmist God, please don't listen.
• 48:01
  Speaker 4: It was good for me that I was afflicted, that I might learn your statutes, and so affliction, fiery trials, all these things.
• 48:08
  Speaker 4: Lion's dens bring us to our knees and it is horrifying when a Christian says shake your fist at God, tell him you're angry.
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: That makes me shudder.
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: When you're in a lion's den, get on your knees, don't hold your fist up, because he's your only hope and he's faithfully promised.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: You know, few things terrify me more than the.
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: I'm going to give God a piece of my mind posture.
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: You haven't got my mind.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: if you do that, that's a good way to put it, but it really speaks to man's ignorance as it relates to who God really is, who they are, and it's so short-sighted really.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: But again, the natural man doesn't understand the things of the Spirit of God.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: They're foolishness to him.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: But when your eyes are open, when you know God, you still grieve, you still mourn, you still sorrow, but there's that understanding that carries you through.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: That's what happened with Job at the outset.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: Then he started to kind of lose focus at times as he's corresponding with his friends.
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: But we need to remember that Christ is our hope and those of you listening right now that have been listening maybe for a while, and we've had even atheists who have said they listen to the podcast and they're still atheists.
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: But those of you that are listening now, some of the things you've heard us say are foreign to you.
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: They're foreign to you for a reason it's because you don't know the one that all of us know here on the podcast, the one that Tim knows, that has carried him through his grief, that he's able even to continue it in his life and to do what he's doing now and sharing this with us.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: So you need to know him.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: That's the answer.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: Tim, I'd love you to speak to the vulnerability that you may have felt in opening up your life to the world.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, you've given the world a window into your soul, into your family life.
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: What was that like for you?
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: Was it hard, challenging?
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: Did you find it cathartic in a way, too?
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I had to clear it with my family and make sure they were okay with me being public with what we had gone through and there's much I didn't say just because that was between them.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: That was their story, not mine, and so maybe that's the way of saying it is.
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: I got their agreement that I could tell my story, but they might tell theirs at a different time and maybe in a different way, different time and maybe in a different way.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: And you know, I think I put the story out there not for a cathartic reason, but more just to share it, more just to give people an experience of grief.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: And I had read lots of books that were written after grief.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: I hadn't read many that were written during grief and I think what I tried to capture is just the rawness of those early days.
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: Even now, years later, I would write it very differently because the grief has settled and matured, but these are very raw and immature reflections on grief and in that way I think they do have some value and I've been delighted to hear from people who are going through grief and have benefited from reading it.
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: That's been a real source of encouragement.
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: There's one thing I want to say which is sort of going back to Ray's comments.
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: We tend to believe that God can do more with us when we're strong.
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: But I think, as life goes on, we find that God can often do a lot more with us when we're weak.
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: And so there's ways in which he breaks us or takes from us or leaves us weak.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: That might be mentally or emotionally weak, it might be physically weak, it might be through losses, it might be through any number of things.
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: But our natural assumption, just from life in this world, is that the stronger I am, the more I can do.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: And that might be true in certain realms, but in God's economy just look at the Apostle Paul or look at Jesus himself we see that God often accomplishes so much with weak and broken people, and sometimes his providence directs that we grow weak or we are broken, so that he can do with us what he wants to do.
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: And again, even in that, we just bow the knee and say this is your world, my life is yours, please just use me, however you will.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: Oh man, tim, so glad you touched on that.
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: His strength is made perfect in weakness.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, paul said that when I'm weak I'm strong.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: And so often so many believers want to run away because they feel that weakness.
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: Well, I can't be used by God.
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: And time and again not just through Paul and again you referenced Jesus, but all across the pages of Scripture we see weak people that felt inadequate and the Lord delighted to use them.
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: It's just the suffering and the pain.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: We don't like.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: We like the outcome, but it's a suffering and the pain, and sometimes that can be blinding.
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: It's important to remember that God is working through it, not just passing by it and I love Makoto Fujimori.
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: In his book on art and faith he equates it to Kintsugi art, which, like the history of Kintsugi art, is that there was this Japanese warrior and his favorite teapot breaks and he's furious about it.
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: And one day an artist comes along and is like I can make it to something better, more beautiful.
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: And so he doesn't glue it back together to hide the cracks.
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: What he does is see a beauty in the cracks, and so he uses gold to fuse it together and to highlight what was once broken.
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: And Makoto Fujimori points out that Thomas sees the glorified Jesus and sees holes in his hands, that even in the suffering of Christ, in this glorified state, there is a remnants of suffering, but it's filled, it's glorious, it's beautiful and in that same way our suffering, god is working through that.
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: He's the great Kintsugi artist that is bringing it back together to make something beautiful out of our lives, for both a purpose to serve others and to glorify himself.
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: That's beautiful.
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: Can I say something on that Please?
• 54:02
  Speaker 5: yeah, so beautiful even to this day, right, some of the most beautiful works of art that are out there in Japan and it's carried over into the Western world.
• 54:11
  Speaker 5: And that is to put things back together using the gold, and it becomes more valuable now that it has those cracks, right.
• 54:18
  Speaker 5: But this is the importance of relying upon community and the local church.
• 54:23
  Speaker 5: This is why it's important to surround yourself with people who are going after the Lord, who have abandoned themselves and said Christ is more important than anything I'm going to come up with on my own.
• 54:37
  Speaker 5: It was Helen Keller that said it is better to walk with a friend in darkness than to walk alone in the light.
• 54:44
  Speaker 5: We are to come together and to almost do our friends, thinking for them when they're grieving, right.
• 54:54
  Speaker 5: So, when you surround yourself with people who love God, if you're grieving so much, if you're going through it so much, going in the midst of the fire, trust the community.
• 55:04
  Speaker 5: This is what you're going to do next.
• 55:07
  Speaker 5: And what do we do?
• 55:07
  Speaker 5: Hey, if you ever need anything, hey, just call on me.
• 55:11
  Speaker 5: If you need a meal, call.
• 55:12
  Speaker 5: You know they need a meal.
• 55:13
  Speaker 5: You know they need help.
• 55:16
  Speaker 5: You know that their kids need to be picked up from school.
• 55:18
  Speaker 5: You know these things because you've lived life and you've lived life with them, so you need to do their thinking for them.
• 55:26
  Speaker 5: I've got the kids.
• 55:27
  Speaker 5: I've got the meals hey, the meals are taken care of.
• 55:33
  Speaker 5: I have all of these things.
• 55:34
  Speaker 5: We are to bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ.
• 55:35
  Speaker 5: Or, as Romans 12, 15 says rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep.
• 55:39
  Speaker 5: And this is how we practically do it as we lean upon community.
• 55:44
  Speaker 5: So build your community well, choose your church well and serve at your church so they know you well.
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: That's so good, mark.
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: You know, tim, mark touched on the aspect of surrounding yourself with community and what we as a community can do.
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: We've touched on that from different angles, but there is that sense sometimes for the believer in the midst of sorrow to not want to be a burden and at other times to feel like I don't really need anyone, I just need to grieve by myself right now.
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: There may be moments for that, but overall I'd love you to speak to the importance of us, in the midst of our sorrow, also reaching out to the body, asking for help, opening our hearts and lives up to them to speak to us.
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: Truth, reaching out to the body, asking for help, opening our hearts and lives up to them to speak to us truth Maybe I can address it this way which is another realization that came early in grief was that we could sin in our grief and we might be tempted to excuse ourselves for sinning in our grief because we were going through such a difficult situation.
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: And one of the ways we could sin in our grief was by being easily offended by people or even distancing ourselves from people, or even realizing that in a community, others are grieving as well, and even as we're comforted, we may need to comfort and we need to share our grief so others can properly process what has happened.
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: Because when Nick died, it wasn't just our family's loss.
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: It may have been primarily our family's loss, but it was the church's loss as well.
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: They had lost a son of the church, a young man that they loved and had prayed for and had seen grow up in the church, and so it was a community loss, and it was very helpful for us to recognize that, to acknowledge that and then to mourn as a community.
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: It was really, really beneficial for us just to see our friends grieving with us, and we would not have seen that if we had hidden away in our grief rather than sharing it and making it public.
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: Wow, here's another quote from the book.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: I will not waver in my faith, nor abandon my hope, nor revoke my love.
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: I will not charge God with wrong.
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: I will continue to love God and trust Him, continue to pursue God and enjoy Him, continue to worship God and boast of His.
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: Many mercies, tim, the boast of the believer in the midst of pain and tragedy and struggle in the mercies of God.
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: Someone would look at you and say how do you boast in the mercy of God?
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: You're suffering.
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: God doesn't seem to be merciful to you in this.
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: How do you explain that?
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: I was saved in my soul.
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: God created me and even though I turned away from him, he reached out, he initiated, he did it all.
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: He saved me.
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: And so, even if he takes something from me, what is that compared to what he's done for me?
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: How could I then change my opinion of him when he's been so willing to love a wretch like me?
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: And so, you know, when we go to the gospel, we understand who we are, we understand who God is.
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: That gives us perspective on these other griefs.
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: But then it also shows us the character of God, the God who is willing to forgive sinners, the God who is willing to initiate the forgiveness of sinners.
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: That is a God who is good, that's a God who is kind, that's a God who is loving.
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: And so I can now interpret the circumstances of my life in light of that God and His character and say if he was so generous and so loving in saving me, how could he be cruel or unjust in taking this from me?
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: No, even this must somehow be consistent with his love and with his goodness.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: Even if I can't see it through these limited eyes or this limited perspective, I can believe it and I think someday God will show what he was up to in this.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: We see very limited now.
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: We see, you know, through a foggy mirror, but the day will come and we'll see with clarity and we'll praise His name Amen.
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: Ray, I went out with a brother recently who's going through deep, deep sorrow and I read to him your I have a Problem piece that you wrote and he's been texting me and telling me he's been reading that again and again.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: It's been so impacting him.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: But there are those that can read that and maybe say but I am going through this stuff in here, so I do have that problem, because at the end of it you know you go through this whole list of things and then you say I can't remember what I'm going through or my problem.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: But where does hell play a role for the believer who's even gone through the most extreme thing?
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: Right, hell we see as negative and destructive, but it can be helpful, can't it, to the believer when he thinks of what he really deserves.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I've been soaking my soul in Psalm 90 recently.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 4: Are you familiar with Psalm 90?
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: Right after 89.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: 89, yeah, before 91.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: 91.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 4: And it takes my breath away because it talks about God's greatness and that he's been around for eternity.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 4: And then it says, even as your fear, so is your wrath, and it just gets heavy.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 4: It's just like you start off with a nice little sunrise and light and then there's dark clouds of wrath come throughout the whole psalm.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 4: And what it does for me is it makes me remember that if God gave me exactly what I deserve, it's death and hell, lake of fire, damnation.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 4: And so the fact that I'm breathing, the fact that I've reached 75, is a miracle of God and shows his patience and grace with me, because I am the second chief of sinners.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 4: Wow.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 5: That's good.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: Would it?
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 5: be helpful if I read the.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: I have a Problem.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: Do we have time?
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: You know what?
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: I think we're running short.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we have a problem.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 4: But we'll do it another time, though you know we should resurrect it.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: I don't know how we should maybe create a video with graphics with it going.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 4: Haven't we done that?
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: No, we haven't.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: I don't remember what we've done.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: Tim, I'd love you to wrap us up with just the biggest takeaway that you feel people should get from Sorrow and from your book.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I suppose I would want people to know what somebody said to me in the very early days, which is simply, you can do this.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: It can seem like God has called you to do something.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: That's impossible, and there's a sense in which that's true.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: It's impossible to pass through this with Christian character intact, with your faith in God intact, alone, without His help.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: But God is so willing and so able and so eager to help us in our sorrows.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: He is that kind, loving Father, and so when you go into these times of deep sorrows, I want somebody to come to you and say you can do this.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: By God's grace, with God's mercy, you can pass through this with your faith unspoiled, with your love for God intact, with your faith in Him even increased, your love for Him grown, and you will see God's purposes in it, you will see God's smile in it and God will prove Himself faithful.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: Amen, I love it.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, see God's smile in it and God will prove Himself faithful.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: Amen, love it, yeah, and God's Word reminds us to draw near to Him and he will draw near to us.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him, and those are important for us to keep at the forefront of our heart and mind, to cast our cares upon Him, for he cares for us.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: That, to me, is one of the most precious verses in all of God's Word.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: God cares for us, remembering who he is in His greatness, who we are, in our puniness, really, and in our sinfulness.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: And to fathom that he cares for us and he shows that care tangibly.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: He showed it ultimately in the cross cross and that while we were yet sinners, christ died for us.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: Tim brother, you've been a huge blessing to us and our listeners today.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: No question, the book is Seasons of Sorrow, the Pain of Loss and the Comfort of God.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: Make sure to get it.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: You can get it everywhere that fine books and maybe not even fine books are sold.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: But, tim, how can people get in contact with your ministry?
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: How can they find out more about what you're doing and connect with all the resources you provide?
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, usually the best place to start is just chalicecom.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: The advantage of having a unique last name is you could probably just type it in on YouTube or Twitter or wherever else Facebook and find me there and track the resources.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: I write articles, but what I really love to do is draw people to other good resources book reviews, other articles, blogs and so on.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: So read a little bit and, yeah, I think you'll find something there that you find beneficial.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 3: And, on that note, tim, as I said before, recorded in to let our listeners know, because one of the most common questions that I'm asked is where do I find books that I read?
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 3: And my answers are one of two it's either indexes from other books that I like, I love, chapter nine, what motivated that chapter?
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 3: And then I find out what that author is reading, and the second place is chalicecom.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 3: So if you're looking for things to read, you are a trusted guide and resource and I've boughten, I owe you or the authors owe you a percentage of my purchases because I buy books because of your stuff all the time.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: So thank you for that, tim.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, amen, thank you so much, brother, and hopefully we'll have you back on.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: We'd love to connect with you on other topics as well.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: Well, there you have it, friends.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: We're still everyone here except for Tim have no idea what we're doing.