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Lady in the Water w/ Josh Gondelman · Everyone's A Critic

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Everyone the Critic.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: The show of our guest picks a movie rated below 40% on Rotten Tomatoes and tells us why critics got it wrong.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Janis Co., a formerly pretentious film school student who ten years later sees the error of his ways.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: My guest today is a comedian, writer, and podcaster who also currently supervising produces Jesus and Mira.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Josh Gonderman.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm very delighted to be here.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for being on.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: How are you doing today?
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Of course.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm doing okay, thank you.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um I've got kind of a busy day, but like full of stuff that I'm happy to do.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: So that's like a nice kind of day, yeah.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what did I saw you were busy last night.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: We went to it was Rosh Hashanah over the weekend, so we rented a car and went to like have dinner with her parents out in their back porch outside, and it was very nice, yeah.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: So we yeah, but we don't, you know, we don't have a car, and it's it's kind of like a subway to a New Jersey transit line to a pickup on their end, you know, to get there otherwise.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I was like, you know, forget it, we'll just rent a car and it's easy for the day.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: And how's how is New York at the moment?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's like the best weather of the year.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we were named an anarchist jurisdiction by the Department of Justice today so that we could be denied federal funds.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: So um wonderful.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of it's pretty punk rock, uh, you know, just like real uh just oh, just chaos in the streets.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's been um I think people have been pretty responsible, it feels like, and and uh and the the overall like energy of the city, and maybe this is just me projecting, is like less uh constant terror about public health than there was, you know, but not like to the point that it's reckless, but just like when I step outside my apartment door, I d I'm not like oh, if a squirrel sneezes near me, I'm done for.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: So that's that's a nice feeling to have.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: We we just uh like we're on the verge of being announced of like a second lockdown, it looks like so we just kind of we're just waiting on that now.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: I guess it's like I think he might announce it tomorrow, so we'll see.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I I was doing uh I did my the first thing I did this morning, well I returned the rental car and then I did an episode of of The Bugle with um Andy's Alzheimer and T.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: Stevenson.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: So we talked, I talked a bunch of.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like up more up to speed on uh UK politics than I normally am.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, you've recorded a podcast already this morning?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: Just you know, crushing them out today.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, you are like jam-packed at you doing any more later today.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: I have another thing that I'm recording, but it's not a podcast.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's like an audio play that I'm doing, yeah.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, cool.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm excited.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: So uh let's let's talk about the movie then.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: You you move you decided to choose the movie uh Lady in the Water.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um the 2006 M.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: Night Shameland movie.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um so what is your uh what made you pick it in the first place?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: What is your history with the movie?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's like an incredibly fascinating movie in terms of like the structure and content of the film itself and also like its process towards getting made.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I watched it it with the when I worked at with at last week tonight with John Oliver, the writers and I, uh, you know, I I was one of the writers, we our writers' room would occasionally have like pockets of downtime before rehearsal on Sundays, and we would try to watch a movie, you know, occasionally, or little bits of a movie when we could all together.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so we we watched Lady in the Water, that's my experience seeing it.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: And then I and then I read there's a book about the making of the movie called The Man Who Heard Voices.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, let me look up the um uh the author's name.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: He's mostly a sports writer and he's from Philadelphia.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, of course he's gonna be able to do that.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: He's from Philadelphia, where yeah, where M.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: Shamalin still lives and does most of his work, I believe.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: Michael Bamberger is the name of the author.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, and it's like a I think he kind of thought he was going to just like see this filmmaker at work and and this kind of fascinating man who's made these big successful movies and then maybe either returning to form after the village, which was it wasn't like a flop flop, but it wasn't it was the first one that wasn't like a big success of his of his big movies, right?
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: It was Sixth Sense, Unbreakable Unbreakable.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and there were three huge movies, and then the village kind of just like that was kind of the point where people were going, like, oh, I don't know if I've I'm on board with these twists anymore.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so like we don't know if he only makes hits, right?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like that was the kind of the kind of doubt there.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so that this sports writer, Michael Bamberger, met him around this time when he was starting to get the script finished for Lady in the Water and shadowed him and interviewed him and interviewed people close to him, and it was like the the book is really good, and I think very um, it's not like a hit piece against M.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: Night Shyamalan as you might think like it could be, but it is also like pretty it's like very compassionate and illuminating about like what makes him an exhilarating, exciting filmmaker in person, but it's also like pretty sincere about like why this movie was like a little or a lot chaotic to make and everything.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like a very chaotic movie because it's all over.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: Very chaotic.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: So the I mean, some of the chaos stems from the fact that this was um M.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: Night Shyamalan had like broken off from his pr the pr the company that made the his previous few movies because he didn't feel like they like got the script or were enthusiastic enough about it, so he sold it to a different company.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um he the it takes place in this apartment complex, which I believe was constructed for this film.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like they didn't find it and shoot on a location they like made and it wasn't a sound stage.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: He like constructed an apartment complex um outside of Philadelphia.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um a waste of money.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: What a waste of money.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: And the the it was so much money, and then the the structure of the the movie for people that don't know, it's based on kind of a series of bedtime stories he would tell his children, just kind of like riffing, like this it was this mythology that he built up over time, and it has like bedtime stor made-up bedtime story logic, like just to kind of keep it going until bedtime, and then the kids would ask questions and he would fill in details.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's this it's like very uh dreamlike, and uh it's he didn't uh he didn't s make I think I think a priority of his, it feels like, was not making the structure and mythology like airtight, right?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, yeah like I think instead it he wanted it to feel like this kind of fairy tale logic and fairy tale experience of viewing, which there I think there are um the the vibe of the movie is really like interesting and fascinating, but it's chaos.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's one of the and it's not I don't mean uh this is not like a backhanded like so bad it's good, like oh you've gotta watch this because it's a disaster.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: I really think it is like it's just such a fascinating moment in the history of this filmmaker, and it there's just like so much weird stuff in it that like doesn't all work, but like it's certainly not like boring, you know.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's never it's never a boring movie, yeah.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: And and so it's just like fascinating from end to end, even at moments when you're like, what the hell is this?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I so that's kind of the the opening, that's my history with it.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: I've seen it just the one time.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: I but then I read a whole book about it.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so you know it, you know inside out, and I love talking about it.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like I I think it is like um of I haven't seen all of M.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: Night Shyamalan's movies, but of the ones I've seen, it is like the most fascinating one that doesn't quite work.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like I saw I've seen um uh The Happening as well, which was that's a mess.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a mess.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: But it's also like boring a lot of the time.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like a very quiet, flat movie compared to this, which is just like weird and dynamic, and every character is weird, yeah.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's a guy that just lifts weight lifts weights with one arm, so he has one really strong arm and one less never really explained looking arm.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: Never explained.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: I thought that was gonna come back at some point, but it doesn't.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Shyamalan himself plays a writer who is writing a book that he knows is destined to change the world, which is just like an incredible feat of like authorial, autorial uh hubris.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like truly um it's just a fascinating experience from an end to end.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: And and yeah, and and there's just like so so much there.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's I feel about it the way people kind of talk about Jupiter ascending, where they're like, I don't know if it like comes together, but it's just full of weird stuff that I enjoy watching.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: And that's kind of how I feel, I feel about this, and especially knowing the backstory, knowing that he was just like such a um successful and renowned filmmaker that even though like the people that he he had made his first four movies with were like like a little lukewarm on this script that just thought it needed some work, that he still could just shop it somewhere else and be like, give me this budget, I'm building an apartment complex, and I'm I'm just going for it.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because it was like, I don't know, I you have to think as well, like he had the lot the first four films made so much money.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: They made so much money that like surely they were just like, yeah, if he goes to another studio, they're gonna jump at the chance to work it with him.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, to work with him, right.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: Because even The Village, which people did not love, uh you know, was not as widely reviewed or as successful, or why you know, uh as highly reviewed, rather.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Or wasn't it quite as successful, but not a failure.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, by no means was it a failure.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I know I remember at the time when the village came out, a lot of people uh like uh at least my age, I remember a lot of people loving it still and talking about it.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then this one came out, and I remember nothing.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember anything about this movie, uh other than like Paul Giamatti was in it, um and Paul Giamatti, Bryce Dallas Howard, who had started the village.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: There was the cast is like pretty excellent.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um Jeffrey Wright's very good cast in it.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh Jared Harris is in it briefly.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's right.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um who else is in it?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh there is uh Bob Balaban, uh Freddie Rodriguez, Freddie Rodriguez.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's I mean there's a lot, yeah, there's just so much going on.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, so I I I am really surprised it didn't kind of take off in the way that it uh the rest of his movies did.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's not even like his lowest-rated movie by any means.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's this is so this is 25%, which is bad.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's very bad.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Bad for sure, yeah.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not like uh the last airbender or the happening bad.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right, right.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Which were his two like the ha he went from this to the happening to the last airbender.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: So he like those are reverse run.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: Which is um yeah, just fascinating that he kind of at his lowest point had made this big um this big adaptation, right, of a existing property.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: And and that was maybe the worst one.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: And then he's since kind of like he's since kind of it feels like he settled into a rhythm making like smaller movies, like less grandiose in scope.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um in in terms not not that they're like uh intellectually unambitious or like creatively unambitious, but just like they don't require like, okay, we're gonna this is gonna be a sprawling mythological fairy tale, and it's going to we're gonna build a whole uh you know four buildings or whatever to make this happen.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, it just feels like he he kind of lost that um lost that ability or the the um the leeway to just kind of like call all of his own shots.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there are there are some artists who work the best when they're like totally unfettered by production constraints or budgetary constraints or creative input.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know that that is true about M.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: Night Shamalan as a writer and director.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think like when you when you when he has like parameters to push against, I think he's like a little more interesting and like knows how to make that work in in a way that is like cool and and fun to watch.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then when he's like, I'm just gonna like have an idea and it's a film, it's like I I think that you know there's a little less um it's it sometimes goes a little out into the I mean like literally out into the woods with this and the happening where it's also when I saw the happening I remembered I knew that I knew the twist was that it was like something that nature was putting out that was making people uh commit suicide.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: But what I didn't realize was that twist is revealed like fairly early in the movie.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then they just do kind of nothing about it.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like they run away.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: Which like it's because the first um the first like several kind of ominous deaths that you see are like pretty affecting and haunting, and then you find out why they're happening, and then it's just like that the kind of like shroud of mystery is gone.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's gone, and you don't care about the movie anymore.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: You're just like, well, I guess I hope they get away from nature.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's that's what you're rooting for from Mark Wahlberg and Zoe Deschanel, uh, one of the film's weirdest couples.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um but this so Lady in the Water, it takes place in this apartment complex, and Paul Giamatti plays a a um a he's like a superintendent, right?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: He's a superintendent, yes, yeah.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: Candyman, and and he has a a really um notable stutter.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's maybe the the strongest, most notable aspect of this character is also never explained.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: Stutter.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: Never explained, right.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: Which I guess like it is, you know, it maybe it's just part of who this guy is, and he doesn't talk about it a lot, or you know, doesn't feel the need to explain it, and it can just be like part of the backstory, but it is it's not a nervous tick necessarily, like it's not a sign of like, oh you're uh you had this stutter as a child and it comes back when you're when you're flustered.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's like a a full constant presence in the um in the when you when this character is on screen.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: And which is most of the time, he's like b the leading man in the in this film.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: And he so he's the superintendent, and uh basically a mysterious woman shows up in the pool of this apartment complex, played by Bryce Dallas Howard.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and he has to figure out how to get her back to like the dimension that she's from and and and avoid her getting killed.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: So she oh also, so there's it's just like a weird you know, there's there's one old woman who like knows the mythology of this this story.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: She's like, oh, I recognize who this is and what you have to do.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: And and so Brace Diles Howard is like a creature known as a narf, madam.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: And and the the force that is opposing her is kind of like a uh like a a feral hog, uh, right?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they call they call it a um Skrunt.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: A scrunt, yes.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: A scrunt.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so that's also in this mythology, this kind of mythical the like this this older woman is like, I know, I know what this is, I've heard of this before.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: This is a uh this is not a surprise to me.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: Or maybe not not a surprise, but this is not unprecedented.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: There's a narf, you gotta keep her safe from the scrunt, and you gotta send her back to where she's from.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: And there are all these other kind of mythical um kind of titles given to people.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: So, so that's like a lot of the the movie is uh Paul Giamatti figuring out like, okay, if I'm the narf, how do I unite her with the writer and uh who are the peacekeepers and like all these different symbolists?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: There's all these different placements that they all these different characters that have to be placed at certain that he has to find and figure out.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: And he has to know, so he's figuring out like, oh, I think I have this relationship in this myth, but really I'm this other thing.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: So that's like what happens in this movie, and it is like I think it's exactly what it sounds like as we're talking about it, right?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's confusing and it's it's very visually it's very dimly lit.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: But that's that's a lot of his movies as well.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like they're all kind of lit in the same way.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: They all have that feel to them.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, other than maybe the last and and um and the happening, I feel like is fairly bright through a lot of it.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like you see.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's true, actually.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: You see a lot of like parks, but it is just people like diving into lakes and not letting and drowning themselves or whatever.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um but yeah, so it is it's just this like I I did such I gave such a short synopsis of of like the overview of the plot because other than that, um I don't know like there's just so much that happens, but it's all under that umbrella, and it's a lot of like establishing stuff just to like fully erase it and find out it's false, like two scenes later.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: There's yeah, it's like it's just really um, you know, I think there's kind of a uh a fatigue that some people have with like the conventional modern like three-act film structure of like okay, you know that the action rises like this and gets to you know comes to a head, and then it kind of pivots and we start solving this problem, and and uh then there's a climax.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: And this movie, there's some of that, but it's just like all over the place, kind of back and forth.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like it seems like, oh, we figured it out, no, we haven't.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: We figured it out, we haven't.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not um it's not linear, it's not like a Lord of the Rings where like they keep facing obstacles, but they keep solving the obstacles.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: This is like there's one obstacle, and who they continue uh Paul Giamatti's character uh continues to fail to solve it in kind of the same way over and over.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's very repetitive.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it's also filled with exposition throughout the movie.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so much exposition.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: There's so much exposition.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: It opens with voiceover exposition over like a kind of slight animation that's supposed to like set the scene.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's so it's so much exposition.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: There's so many scenes where it's just a person like explaining this myth to to Paul Giamatti and and and then him explaining it to other people.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone's always on board with the myth as well, though.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody ever doubts it.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: They're all just like, yep, okay, I'm going, I'm I'm on board with this, this makes sense to me.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm I'm not so much against that purely because of the fact that at one point they say that um all of these people are supposed to be drawn to her in some way.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm kind of like to brace Dallas Howard, Madame Narth.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, but uh at the same time, it's kind of ridiculous.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh it's very ridiculous.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: Which is, I think, kind of the best thing that this film has going, is that it's so ridiculous.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like there's no um the like the weird surreal quality and just like the spectrum.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Specificity of all these characters for better and worse, um, is like what is the draw of this movie is just that it's so like you get all the this whiplash of the action going kind of back and forth, and like you learn something and then you unlearn it, and you're like, Well, why did you tell me that?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like the storytelling is is just like incoherent in a way that is like kind of intentional, in a word, you know, it's not like the movie.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's you sometimes you watch a movie and you're like, This is a big plot hole.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: And in this movie, it's not so much that there are plot holes, so much as like there are it's like the the viewer is being intentionally misled, and and not in the way of like a a knives out, even where there's like oh a red herring.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like you're lied to, or like you're you're misinformed, like the characters are, and so you have no it's very disorienting because you're like, I don't know what needs to happen to solve these problems, and yeah, and you're kind of like in the hands of this protagonist, uh Cleveland Heap, I think is his name, as told you my friends.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: Cleveland Heap, yes.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: And and who's a competent handyman, but is like way in over his head solving this this ancient mythic problem.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: And and even his abilities like are like they're the moment that sticks out to me as of like get out of here, is he has to do something under the surface of the pool, like he has to find something in the film.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: Do you remember what it is?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: I forget, but he's he has to find the mud underwater her like her special mud.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and and it is like stuck in underneath the pool, and so he dives into the swimming pool in this apartment clothed.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: I don't remember.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: He goes in, uh he takes his shirt off and then like dives it.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: So he's got his trousers on still.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: Got his got his pants on fully, and he's underwater for like several minutes.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: So long.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's so long.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then he like takes he gets a straw.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: No, he gets a pen.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: He unscrews it and and uh he finds because he has a glass down there, he manages to like take some air underneath the glass and like suck the last remaining bit of air from the glass, and that's that manages to keep it for like another two minutes down there.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's several minutes long, the sequence where he's underwater, and I think that part of that is like this fairy tale state, right?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: Of like this can happen be like just like a beanstalk can grow a million feet high.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's not really like spoken of as such, right?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: Or you don't get that kind of like um it's not treated as magic.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's just treated as a thing that happened in i in this in in this movie.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like a it's not even like a fantasy element to the movie.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's um Yes.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: The the fantasy element is almost that this mud is healing.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's more what more so what it is, that he's gone down to get this healing mud.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas everything everything surrounding that is very normal.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um except for swimming with pants on.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um but yeah, so that is like so much of the movie is just kind of like we're like hearing this narrative and having it contradicted, and then these kind of feats of extraordinary strength and endurance, um, and and like Bryce Dallas Howard shivering a lot, like in a bathtub.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, very little dialogue, right?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: Because she doesn't really speak for most of the movie.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: And she acts kind of like it's it's very silent a lot of the time, and it's very much just her like yeah, under the shower, um shivering, um whispering to him occasionally, wearing very little the entire time.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's it's truly fascinating.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's just not like other movies.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I I think that's the recommendation for it.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: Is you're not gonna watch this movie and be like, oh, another one of these.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it doesn't feel stale, it doesn't feel um like cookie cutter.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you watch it and you're like, what decisions led to this?
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: And like uh but it but in a way that I think is kind of exciting and and and again you're it's not satisfying.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's not a satisfying experience, but it is like a fascinating one.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's yeah.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's yeah, it's fascinating.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you you want to continue watching it the entire time because you want yeah, you kind of you're you're waiting on that payoff and it doesn't really happen.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, like it there's a conclusion, certainly.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like they they but it doesn't right, it's not like aha, the it was there under our noses all along.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: It was just like, oh, he finally found the thing that solves the problem and does it, and like which is kind of like what it feels more like life than a lot of movies, even though it's totally nonsense in terms of its plot, in that it's not like ah, the lesson someone tried to tell me at the beginning, I finally learned at the end.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: It was like at the end, you're just like, I failed a lot and got really wet, and like met a bunch of people that I like don't know if I get along with or trust, and they don't really like me, and uh and then finally I accomplished this one goal that was like not what I intended to do, but then I had to do it.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I feel like the only one that kind of the only character other than uh Bryce Dallas Howard that gets the payoff is um is uh M.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: Night Shyamelin, because he gets his like he gets to find out what's gonna happen to him in the future.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um he finds out about his sister as well.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um but he finds out like how important he's going to be.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone else just kind of is there to assist her and and even like they s they say at the start like oh um this this uh character is supposed to like come across and like and fix everything and then and then that will um lead to these things happening and but he fixes it and then nothing happens with him.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: He just stands there at the end and like he kind of sees her fly off and that's it.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: So like you you're like, oh uh so was that his whole purpose in life was to help her her purpose was to help I don't know.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right, she just kind of showed up.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's no real rhyme or reason to her showing up, right?
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like she didn't teach him anything about himself.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: No, she doesn't teach him.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't learn anything about the world other than how to save this person.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't like I it's and and like correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember the kind of theme being like this guy is like he's supposed to be helping people because he's the superintendent, but he really only cares about himself and he has to learn to care about others.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's not he's just like a regular guy doing his job.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: People half the people like him, half the people are kind of like indifferent to him.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they're indifferent, and then that's it.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and so that that's so fascinating.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: I keep using that word, but it's like so riveting to me that there's no um like it's not this kind of tri like new traditional film structure of like No, you know, this guy who's this superintendent and he has this challenge to overcome that's internal that manifests as this external adventure he has to go on, and he's only able to solve this bigger problem because he um changes or learns or adapts.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's it's not that.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not even like the myth the mythological version of it as well.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: There's not even that to it, I don't feel like.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: There's not even like the the original version like of a story of storytelling where you don't even have that.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: So like both both versions are not there.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's just like a it really truly feels like a serialized bedtime story in that like in the way that when you find out like Charles Dickens got paid by the word, you're like, I get it.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's why there's so many chapters.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like this feels like something like a story you would you would tell night after night, and then you would have to recap, you know, like you would recap, you would have to include all this internal re-exposition because it's like for children who might have forgotten, or you're refreshing yourself or rebooting this um the next night.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: That makes so much sense.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it really feels it really feels like what it is, and and that is like in itself uh like a fairly unique experience that you get to watch a big budget movie that is like uh intricately uh set designed and it's like a true blockbuster scale move uh uh ambition movie that is just like a guy's meandering uh storytelling and a meandering like fantasy, and it's it's fascinating because only I mean they they've talked about this movie and M.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: Night Shaman on the on the podcast Blank Check with Griffin Newman and David Sims were going through some of filmography, but like you know, a director who gets these kind of blank checks to make their ambitious projects, but it feels like there are so few occasions and people who could have even gotten the the like clout and had this kind of creative ambition to make this movie.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think the closest maybe maybe Guillermo del Toro would come close to this, but like he would do it.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: Guillermo del Toro he'd tell it in a cohesive way, like it wouldn't it would have a storytelling structure to it and make sense.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: Or um or even I've I could see like Quentin Tarantino doing a version of something like this where he but like he just but like you're saying Guillermo del Toro has much more of that flair for the like mythological but I could but like Tarantino to me has like the kind of sprawling storytelling style where like just a lot of stuff happens, yeah, but it but again it makes more cohesive sense usually.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: But there's always a payoff with the with the Tarantino ones as well, at least that is not in this.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um let's talk about the let's go through the movie itself and see if we can kind of like uh because I know it's very like like you said, there's a lot of things that happen in it, so I kind of want to like we'll breeze through it because it's not it's already a long yeah.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, it opens with uh a voiceover and it's like um it's telling like a myth, uh some kind of myth mythological story, and about a man and uh about how man and those in the water were once linked and man doesn't listen to things, so um they're separated.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: A man likes war, and so the people of the people of the water are kind of like stuck down the like stuck down there waiting and trying to help people, yes, and everything.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um so they come to the they come to the earth every so often and save people, supposedly.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: They come in the dead of night, um and many don't return, they say.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: But we don't know like what their kind of purpose is to save, like are they just saving random people?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Are they like Right?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: Are they saviors of humanity?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Why are they why are they so inclined to save mankind?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's no real indication of what what what it is that what the what the real purpose is there.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um but then yeah, so they uh I wrote down like why do they try and help man?
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: What is their purpose like why do they want to do this?
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well um okay, so I'm I'm on the Wikipedia, and when uh two things one thing that I did not remember was that he became the superintendent of the apartment building, Cleveland Heap, after his family was murdered.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's spoken about, but it's like very glossed over.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: The name of Bryce Dallas Howard appears in the pool and he discovers her.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: Her name is Story, which I had forgotten.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: Her name is Story.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: She she is a narf.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: This is from Wikipedia, and she's there.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: Her purpose specifically is to find the writer who will write a book that will save humanity, and that is Emnight Shyamalan.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: He plays not only is it what how M.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: Knight Shamalan apparently thinks about the endeavor of writing and his writing, but that is the character he plays in the uh in the film.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also a book that's so powerful and so like.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: People won't understand it in its time.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: People won't understand it.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, people won't understand it in its time, and someone will kill him over it.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's what she said.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: She says someone will murder you.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: It will contain story says that the book will contain views and ideas so significant, they will inspire a future president, a great Midwestern orator, to change the world for the better.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then he then he deduces and and she says, she confirms that he will be assassinated because of his ideas, which will make them more powerful.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: Wild.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like the the ego to put that in there.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, it's like I I love it.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, man.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: Why wouldn't ya?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: Who why wouldn't he do this?
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: The ego to write that to write that in there, and then to cast himself as that character.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: To cast himself.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's one thing to have like a surrogate for the writer, right?
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like a a character who serves to like put forth the writer's perspective, even though it's not the perspective of the other characters in a movie.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: But like it's another thing to then cast yourself as that character, making that character explicitly a writer.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then to have the writing be like, this is so powerful, people won't understand it, and they will literally murder you for how powerful you are, which will only make you more powerful.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's incredible.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's incredible.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: I I I'm wondering if he wrote this like off the back of like one of the first movies that came out.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, I am I'm a god now, I can do anything I want.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, people love my writing.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: But he did it.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: This was like written after the village.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: This is not like an old script.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: It was written.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it was so it did come after the village, it didn't come it in.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: I believe so, yeah.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: This was not like this wasn't like a script, yeah.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: This wasn't a script that he had um waiting.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think the writing of it was kind of like a long, arduous process, and and it was writ finished, then like pitched, and you delivered to the people who wanted to read it and pitched like that.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: So yes, so that's that's kind of the the the given um reason for all this happening.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's why she appears.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: Is to inspire is to like uh change to alter the course of this character, the writer, his um his life, so that he writes this incredible thing that that he had been, you know, struggling to complete this work and and he will do it because it will be so important.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's called the Cookbook as well, by the way.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: The cookbook, yeah.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: There's also um sorry, there's also the I'm trying to find okay, here are some other characters.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: He needs so the the kind of getting the band together element of this story is he has to find a guardian, a symbolist, a guild, and a healer.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um yes.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, and then Bob Baliban's character is like a cynical, unpleasant film critic.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he's the only unpleasant character in the movie.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um critic, so it's this very on the nose there of like, oh uh, the film critic is the evil one here, and uh and everyone hates him and he's miserable at what he's gonna do.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: And he gives bad advice.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: He gives bad advice, and he's the only one that actually dies in the movie at any at some point.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: He's the only one that he he gets attacked by the uh the creature uh later on in the movie and dies.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the scrunt.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: And he g he gives this whole very long uh description about how he's going to die.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um what's supposed to happen.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, this is like the moment from a horror movie where uh the villainous character the the side character um sees the sees the villain and then runs away just in the nick of time and like closes the door and uh the villain and the villain just misses out on scratching and killing him.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to turn around right now and walk away, and as he does it, the the crit uh the scrunt immediately kills him.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's great.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I wrote down, I hate this.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: I hate in that dialogue so much.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's bad.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's really bad.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's really bad.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's not even fun bad.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not the um the the movie overall is not a self-aware meta narrative.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's like a very um unself-conscious, sincere fairy tale.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and I think that this character is kind of like a weird deviation from that, a tonal deviation where he was very like post-modern cabin in the woods awareness of like the kind of movie he's in.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: Good description, yeah, yeah.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: And and w which is not the movie the other characters seem to be in.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: But he's also he can't he he's kind of there to serve the purpose of like um bringing them all together, them because like, or at least you think he is, because because he did he gives these character descriptions uh to Paul Giamatti of like, oh, this is how uh so if you were to look for this kind of person, this is how you would look for the for this one, and then you realize it's the guy with the crossword puzzle, and then you realize it's it's the uh it's the five women and like all of this.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: Are the guild right the guild, yeah.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: When he when he dies, um the everybody kind of has this realization that like this order that Bob Balaban has imposed on the the residents uh right, this person is the symbolist, this person is the guardian, these people are the guild.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_02: They uh he dies, and everyone is like, oh, this guy didn't know anything.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: And they immediately reorient the entire um the entire like calibration of yeah, they're just like, oh, you're this guy, you're this guy, these women are are the guild, and and so they just like flip it, and it was all because of like and this was not again, this was not like Paul Giamatti trusts too much, Cleveland Heap trusts too much, or he um you know, etc.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: This is just the character that is the film critic is arrogant and wrong, which is fascinating.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like he's using this big this movie had a budget of 70 million dollars and was used to like uh hype up his own work and um and and settle petty grudges, and I admire and respect that.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: But he'd only had one movie reviewed badly at this point as well.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: One movie before this movie.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it was only the village was reviewed.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: As good as his other movies, yeah.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's justifiably not as well reviewed, and and he couldn't handle it so much that he put a film critic in this movie to to shit on them to say like they are bad people.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: Misleading uh to the point where in the movie brought his own death on himself.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: Just like really fascinating.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um so they they kind of reinterpret who is who in this group of people.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um the uh yes, the um they yeah, they reinterpret it and they um they're as Mr.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: Dury.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, my son is the symbolist, and the guild are these these seven sisters who live here, yeah.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_02: And the healer, like Paul Giamatti thought that he was the guardian, but no, he's not the guardian, he's the healer.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and who's the guardian?
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh oh yeah, the guardian is Reggie, the guy with the one massive arm.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: With the one strong arm, yep.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um and which you think is like, oh, that's that's what his whole guardian thing is.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: He's got the one arm, he's gonna do something with it.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: Nope.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: But he just kind of menaces the scrunt.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you can send it away.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um Yes.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: And there's also like a whole thing with mirrors as well where you can like hold it up to the scrunt um and that should work.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so he so this is the conclusion.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna read this verbatim for Wikipedia.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: So this is the the conclusion is they need to scare off the scrunt so that that um story, the narf, can be brought home to to this underwater realm where she lives.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: So this is these are the the last three sentences of the Wikipedia entry.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: So Reggie, like you said, stares down the scrunt who's retreating.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um four sentences.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: He is distracted by the cry of the great Eatlon, a giant eagle who will ferry story home.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_02: When Reggie breaks eye contact because he hears this eagle, the scrunt leaps, but the Tarturic or excuse me, Tartuic arrive and drag it away.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: And the Tartuic is like an invincible quartet, yeah, monkey group of peacekeepers who protect the blue world, this underwater world.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_02: So the Tartutic arrive and drag the scrunt away.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: Don't know why they couldn't have done it because they were always in the tree, supposedly.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: So why and and that scrunt was always in the grass below them.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: So why couldn't they have done that?
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_02: Heap thanks Story for saving his life, but because he has unloaded his grief upon her.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_02: So that's his personal journey, right?
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: Is that he has to unload this grief.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's like the thing that that heals her.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: But like, I don't know, it's just it's pretty muddled, like why that is important to whom.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the great Ethlon lands, unfolds Story in one of its wings, and takes flight, ferrying Story into the night.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: So they basically just have to create enough of a distraction and diversion that this giant eagle who could have just shown up could could rescue this this uh uh they do actually make clear why the eagle couldn't show up, and it's because Oh right, sorry.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um the eagle refuses to show up around like all the humans or something, so they are the only people that could be out there were the ones helping and assisting with it.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what they said.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: But it also could have been no one.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_02: If no one was there, it could be Yeah, totally.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: So so that's the conclusion.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess like the kind of journey that Paul Giamatti goes on is letting go of this grief that is inside him.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: But like it doesn't seem this this like overwhelming sorrow doesn't really like you said, it's kind of spoken of elliptically.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't seem to like dominate his day-to-day, like it doesn't, it doesn't, he doesn't seem like a man whose big problem is that he's weighted down by this personal grief and unloading it.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: And and also it doesn't feel like unloading that grief on a stranger is like what would heal that stranger.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, it's just so like she's like a magical vessel for his uh his healing.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um isn't that kind of just like a a summation of just like men and women as well, just like men unloading their grief onto women.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um choice because right, because like he's he's supposed to be healing her, but like really he's healing himself.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's like but there was no sense that he was like wounded because she was the one who was like bodily wounded.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just like it's just full I mean again, I haven't seen this movie in a long time, so maybe I'm not giving it as much credit as it deserves in a lot of in any kind in some in some narrative senses, but at the same time, it did feel even when I saw it very surreal and kind of inexplicable.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, I think you're totally right.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: I I'd like in terms of narrative, it it's all over the place, and uh it's there's there's lots of just like individual things that happen with no payoff.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um even like the ending is just such little payoff that Right.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: Even when you see even even the eagle that comes to get her, you see it from under the water.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: You don't see it properly, so you're like barely seeing what's going on.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's also like this whole group existed to facilitate these much more the emergence of these much more powerful creatures that were just choosing not to emerge.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't know.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_02: It just like none of it really works.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's a movie that is so disjointed and so full of like its own little weird things that like I don't know.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: It just is like endlessly compelling to me.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_02: And like whenever somebody else has seen it, I always want to talk to them about it.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_02: And it because it I d it also doesn't feel like a movie that has been done to death.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like there there are movies that like you've had all the conversations with everyone you know, if that makes sense.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like like when you talk about The Room, which is a movie that is like a so bad it's good movie, you know what the narrative of that is.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's like there have been movies made about it.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, so it that's like a specific kind of thing where it's like you know, it's fun to know that like oh, other people enjoy this kind of corny thing that I enjoy, or whatever.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_02: But but this movie, it doesn't feel like everyone you know has seen it and has the same opinions about it.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: I I honestly don't know anyone like I don't know people that have seen it.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: So like when you suggested it, yeah.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: I had it on my list, but like when you suggested it, I was like, oh yeah, definitely let's do this.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm really interested, I'm fascinated because I'd never seen it.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: I saw it for the first time for this.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_02: Is is your experience having just seen it for the first time recently similar to like what I have seen.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, great, great, great.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it's so all over the place, it's so but it's fascinating.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was never bored watching it.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: I was constantly trying to work out what was gonna happen, and it there's no but there's no payoff.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: And you can't guess.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: You can't guess you cannot guess what's going on.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_02: The like little trail of clues that is left for you know that that supposedly makes sense for the characters are are like compl you there's no way you could guess like, oh, this is what's gonna happen.
• 50:42
  unknown: Yeah.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: But it's just it's so bizarre.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it's such a strange movie.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I really do think it's like I don't know, this and the happening are s the to me like the two most bizarre movies.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't even talked about the the the bad CGI of the of the each of the creatures, because they look terrible.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: They do not look good.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: So for you to say like 70 million like was it mostly spent on the apart building that apartment complex?
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: It must have been.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't make sense.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like where 70 million went.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean I think this construction was so much of it.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: But then like also Doug Jones did the um like the characters for like all the all the creatures I read.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh um interesting.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: And he's good at what he does.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like I do I I don't know if you're aware of him.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he's he's very good at what he does.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know much about him.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: So he he does like a lot of the um he does all the Guillermo del Toro ones, he does so like Oh cool.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: So he does like the he did the characters in Pan's Labyrinth, he did the uh one in um uh Shape of Water.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: He does a lot of very good characters, and and so like to see him do these, it's very weird.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, very weird.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_02: Right, like it doesn't but I don't it seems almost like the the point either they just ran out of budget, which is why you don't see the eagle, or every the idea of it, the conceit is they're supposed to kind of exist.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like because even the scrunt, you kind of like for most of the time you see it exists only like in the periphery.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's like wrestling in the bushes, and yeah.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um so like it's it seems like it's almost intentional that it has this like obscure, oblique quality that like again doesn't really work.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: You wanna eventually see it, right?
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like when there's this moment of like these creatures are coming to the forefront, you like want that, like you said, payoff of where we're the they're the like focal points of this mythology or the significant characters, they are the ones who are physically affecting the change that everyone is working towards, and then you kind of see them in these like obscure uh like angles and through with weird lighting, and and yeah, it's it's just like that's all we get.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's like if you know they they talk about how like long how long it takes to show the shark in Jaws, right?
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like and you wait, you wait for so long and it builds this tension, but like that's like if you never saw the shark.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: This is like that's completely it, yeah.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_00: That makes so much sense.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's no again, no payoff.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: There's no payoff in this movie.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um okay, so um you've you've talked about it a lot, but can you uh can you kind of speak about defending this movie then?
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I just I'll give a quick recap of like I think I've kind of meandered through this, but it is not like other movies.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_02: It is a singular, specific, like personal in a good way, in terms of like it's this kind of tender fairy tale telling that that is really important to the the writer and director, as well as uh personal in a bad way, that it like is there are also parts where he's like explicitly settling petty scores.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's the the characters are all kind of fascinating.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_02: The like I mean a lightly problematic old Asian woman is the the character who like unschools the uh this this mythology generally, like just like a very weird um choice there to like make her like quote unquote like the like to it's like very exoticizing, it feels like.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but like guy with one really strong arm, guy who's always doing crossword puzzles, uh writer who believes he will be assassinated and is validated in hearing he'll be assassinated because of how powerful his writing is.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: There's just like so much specific weird detail that like doesn't really come together, but it's also like if you want to watch a movie that's like, what?
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_02: How?
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_02: Which I kind of do.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's like not I think there are a lot of like quote unquote better movies that are like um intense and grueling viewing experiences that I'm not always in the mood for, but I'm almost always in the mood to watch a movie where I'm just like perplexed the whole time, and and then you re you watch it and then you like read an interesting book about it.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's like I it's like a lot of enjoyment to be wrung from this thing that is like very imperfect and not in an ironic way, in like a um a genuine a way that is genuine, like inspires curiosity and uh and and like really makes you aware that you're watching a movie.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, amazing.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: That was great.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um okay, so let's move on to the uh the final segment, which is um I don't know how how hard you're gonna find this one because you are notoriously like the nicest person on the internet.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's right.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but do you have a movie that is um well loved that you think is a bad movie?
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_02: I go to this well a lot, so I apologize to anyone who's heard me talk about this before, this listening to this.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_02: But I my go-to for this is the social network.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, interesting.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think here's I'll start here.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think it is a uh a well-acted movie.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think like Jesse Eisenberg, Andrew Garfield, Army Hammer, um Runi Meyer doesn't have a lot to do.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but like those three actors specifically, Justin Timberlake, very hateable, as is the intent of the the you know, the way the character is written.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think the pacing is really good.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like I think it like it is all very like the the motivations and the logic and everything, and like uh it all like tracks you like watching, you're like, I see why this is happening, and like at the the story is unspooled very expertly.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_02: The soundtrack, um, Trent Reznor, and I forget the name of his collaborate a collaborative partner like the great you know, great soundtrack.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_02: However, I do not care about it at all.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_02: Nothing that happens in the movie.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_02: It first of all, it's a story about Facebook that that obscures and avoids everything that's interesting about Facebook.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the way it like changed how people communicate.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_02: And and and granted, when when it came out 10 years ago now, I guess, or nine nine or ten years ago, the the cultural resonance of Facebook was very different.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_02: But still, it it was a story that was told so close to when it started that the perspective I find worthless.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh like who's gonna own Facebook is like I don't care at all.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like which one of these Harvard students is gonna get super rich, like who cares?
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I just like there's no the stakes to me are so nil.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and knowing that Mark Mark Mark Wahlberg, I almost said, knowing that Mark Zuckerberg comes out ahead when you go in, there's no there's no um there's no like twist to there's no intrigue because you know the ending, even if you don't know how you get there, and how you get there in this particular story is not fascinating.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think it's in many ways the opposite of Lady in the Water, in that it is like an incredibly well-told story, uh a story with like um you know, with that is like really expertly and impeccably made that I just like am not interested in for one minute.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like Yeah.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's yeah, that makes total sense.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it really is like like you said, it really is the total opposite.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like it has Yeah.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: It has no intrigue to it that uh because you know you know everything going in.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: So um Right.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's I I have this this problem generally uh with movies that are like come out either during the life or just after the a life that has been like incredibly well chronicled.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like I I also felt like the same way about the Steve Jobs movies of like I know enough about the the legend of Steve Jobs that I certainly don't need two movies about him within three years of his death.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_02: And this is this kind of has the same thing in that like this, you know, Facebook was founded in 2003, and the movie came out seven years or maybe 2002, but like the movie came out within a decade.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's not enough time.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's just not there's no the perspective is so close to what it's talking about, and so like by you know, especially now in 2020, it would be fascinating now if like done it made it now, yeah, and gone.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_02: A movie about Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook, and like that kind of starts with the where the whole plot of the social network is like the first 15 minutes, you know, there's like act one is all this this uh turbulence surrounding what Facebook was, and then we see like what it has become and and and like the the way it exists in the culture now, and and because like you're talking about this uh media force that has like can change the way people consume and talk about politics news, and there's just like not a breath of that in this movie about about it, you know what I mean?
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, completely, yeah.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_00: I yeah, I I would be fascinated to see kind of just the whole social media uh like just just de a movie detailing the whole like all of these kind of social media networks now, considering everything going on, I think it would be very much more interesting to see all of them together and and see what kind of comes of it because they're all kind of linked in some way.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um and they're all doing bad things, so uh I I kind of want to see that.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, like you said, like you say, I think there's a new documentary, right?
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it just like doesn't feel I think so.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_02: Let me see what it's called.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_02: I know a bunch of people that have just seen it.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's the social dilemma.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_02: It just came out.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that one, yeah.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't realize it was like specifically about all of those.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_02: I th I thought it was just like Yeah, it's about like social media and like how it affects and and how the pe it's I think there's a lot of footage of people, like interview footage of people who like worked on uh things like Facebook and and Instagram and Twitter and like the early stages.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh right.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: I thought it was more to do with like how it affects um its its users.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I would yeah.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I think that yes, I'm sorry, I think that is true.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_02: I think that is like the the thrust of it, but I think you get it from the perspective of people who like interesting headwork headwork there.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_00: Oh cool.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_00: I might check that out then.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, this has been great.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh do you how can we Yeah, really fun time.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks so much for doing this.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um Do you have anything you'd like to plug at the moment?
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh how can we find you?
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I have a podcast called Make My Day.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_02: It is a a comedy game show that is where there's only one contestant each week, so you know going in the contestant always wins.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very low stress, very fun, silly game show experience.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_02: And uh it comes out every Tuesday.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very fun podcast.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_02: And uh Deesus and Mero on Showtime, where I where I work uh full time.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you know, it's not I'm not just a fan, I also work there.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then let me think of I have a book called Nice Try Stories of Best Intentions and Mixed Results.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: I recommend all of that.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, big fan.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um I also just say, like, if you're in the UK and you want to see Jesus and Miro um YouTube, that's the uh that's the way we have to watch uh clips.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_00: Still definitely check it out.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for doing this, Josh.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_02: A pleasure.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um have a great one.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's the end of the podcast.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_00: You can find me on Twitter with the username at YCove or at YanisCove on Instagram.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_00: Please remember to rate and review us on iTunes if you enjoyed this, so I can end up making more.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll see you next week for more movies that critics got wrong.