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A History and Theology of Mission - Justin Schell || SLP464 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_03: Hello and welcome to the Speak Life Podcast, episode 464.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_03: My name is Thomas Thurrogan, media producer at Speak Life, and today we bring you a conversation that Glenn had with Justin Schell about a new book that they have written together.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's called Come and See: A History and Theology of Mission.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: And Union Publishing, who have brought out this book, are offering an exciting giveaway.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_03: I'll explain the details at the end of the show, so stay tuned.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, I'm Glenn from Speak Life.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: We're like to see all things through the lens of Jesus, and I'm joined by Justin Shell, who, together with me, is the co-author of a new book, Come and See.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm joined today on the line from Tulsa, Oklahoma, by Justin Shell.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, Justin.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: Hey Glenn.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's good to be here with you today.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's great for us to finally meet.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: We've co-authored a book together.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's about time we actually uh had a conversation, isn't it?
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's long overdue.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Those emails just um just don't do the trick.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's not quite the same.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Email threads.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so tell us and tell the listener uh a little bit about yourself and what you get up to in Tulsa.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, here in Tulsa today we are we're cleaning up.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: We had a hundred mile an hour winds um two nights ago, and so the whole city has trees and limbs and and things all over the place and the electricity's out.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: But um but here I have electricity and even Wi-Fi.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: So does that kind of happen in June?
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Is that a is that a June thing?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I know you're a a big musical fan, or I'm I'm gonna pretend like you are.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you probably know Oklahoma where the wind comes sweeping through the plains.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's it.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Where the wind comes.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: So um we are we're known for being windy and and planey.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it it is, yeah, we're we're right here in Tornado Alley, um in in the northeast part of the state, and so that's fairly normal.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: But on on other days, I'm here with my wife Megan and uh our our two kiddos, Henry and Evie, um, splitting my time between the Lausanne movement and union.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: And um uh we're members of Evergreen Church here in in Tulsa.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: And uh yeah, that's a little bit about us.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: Very good.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: Give me a couple of sentences on Lausanne and a couple of sentences uh sentences on union.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: So ex explain those two movements to us.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: In uh 1974 in Lazon, Switzerland, so that's where the name comes from.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Billy Graham, John Stott, 2,700 other global Christian leaders gathered to wrestle over how the global church could partner to um uh to work together for the Great Commission.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: The mission's too big to do alone and too important to not work together on.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: So the last almost 50 years, Lazan's tried to help the global church, denominations, mission agencies, NGOs, kingdom minded businesses partner together to do more together uh than they could do on their own.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's really Lazan's heart.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get the gospel from where it is to where it's not, and um uh yeah, help the church to do that.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Union is a ministry based out of the UK, and um uh Union is uh uh has a school, Union School of Theology, with programs from the BA up to the PhD, uh, but also is is eager to to resource the church, uh not just through training, but through uh helping fund church plants and revitalizations, um uh publishing books um through union publishing that hopefully will serve the church and um and encouraging the scholars to write for the church and not just for um other other scholars.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: So just a little bit about union.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so one of the books that Union have published is uh a book that we're co-authors of, and it's very interesting that you say about the work of Lausanne is to take the gospel from where it is to where it's not, and Christians can get on board with the Great Commission and let's get the gospel from where it is to where it's not.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you could have called this book, we could have called this book, Go and Tell.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um instead, it's a book that's called Come and See.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's a book about mission, but it's actually a book that says come and see.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's a deliberate decision.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um why?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is a one, it's a theology of mission and a history of mission.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it's uh I guess practically it's not telling you how to how to go and tell.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that kind of a kind of a book.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: But more fundamentally, we believe that when you start to talk about the mission of God, you have to start with God.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um many mission books, evangelism books, start with man, start with the lostness of man or or cultures and how do you communicate to you know across languages and across across cultures.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Some mission books will start with the cosmos.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: So how are we uh maybe anything from caring for creation to to building society, building just uh political systems?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's uh a million different places you could start to talk about mission, and I think all of those things I just brought up, they have their place, some are just so important.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: But I think if we don't start with God, we're gonna miss um miss everything, to be honest.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh whether it's our motivation for mission, am I am I only going to share the gospel because, well, I'm commanded to and I know it's a good thing, and people are lost, and and uh hell is real, and so I guess I should get out there and share the gospel.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Or have I spent time with Jesus and found him so captivating and delightful that I can't help but share him as I go.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so, in many ways, the the title comes out of the first few chapters of John where it's the people who see Jesus who are invited to come and see, to be with him, to spend time with him.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: They naturally we see them then going and telling.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: So whether it's a disciple who um leaves following John the Baptist to follow Jesus, and say, what where where are you staying?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, come and see.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: And the next thing you know, those disciples are going to invite their brothers and their friends to come and see Jesus, or the Samaritan woman at the well encountering uh the Messiah, and then going to tell her village, come and see a man who told me everything I've ever done.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think the best missionaries are gonna be those that I've come and seen and spent time with and delighted in God, who start with God, and then the the tell, the the go and tell part um you could say will start to take care of itself when we're overflowing with love for him.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Overflowing is exactly the right word.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um one of the um verses we're always thinking about at Speak Life is Matthew 12, verse 34, Jesus says, From the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's it's kind of a it's a truth of human psychology as part uh as much as anything else, that that what you what you desire, what you are captivated by is what you will speak about.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and of course, what grips your heart wags your tongue, of course that's true.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um therefore, yeah, job job number one is be captivated by, be filled by the glory and love of Jesus.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um you you're putting me in mind of uh a quote from John Stott that I'm always uh using, and as you mentioned, John Stott with the Lausanne uh movement, uh he wrote in the message of Romans, he said, The highest of all missionary motives is neither obedience to the Great Commission nor love for sinners, but rather zeal, burning and passionate zeal for the glory of Jesus Christ.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that because he's kind of he's just talking about it's it's not simply we have our marching orders from our commander in chief, and we do.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that that would be reason enough to fulfil the Great Commission.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus told you, so get on with it.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and that would be reason enough for it.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it's neither obedience to the Great Commission nor love for sinners, which again is looking at the lostness of the lost, and again, that that would be reason enough to go.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: But he he sort of trumps both of those and says, No, it's this higher thing zeal, burning and passionate zeal for the glory of Jesus Christ.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um tell tell me in in your own life, like how how has that worked for you in terms of coming and seeing Jesus and having that be the fire and the fuel for your own sense of mission?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: I have to be honest and say that I probably wasn't a very cheerful missionary.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we were full-time in the Muslim world.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um the the goal was to be there, to see the church established, to see Muslim men and women saved.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: And um and and and I I think I loved them well.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think I uh I did enjoy being there, but I always had this sense of uh I I wonder if if God's noticing what I'm doing.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder if I'm doing enough.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder if if my heavenly father is pleased with me.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm worried that he might not be because I I didn't love that one guy very well today, and I didn't um maybe share as much as I could have today, or and so I i I think um it starts with my own story of well, I was I was focusing on going and telling.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: I knew people were lost.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I even had some sense of the glory of God, and we can talk about that more uh because I I think I had a one-sided view of the glory of God, and and and probably not a f certainly not a fully biblical view where yeah, God wants glory, so we need to come on, let's let's get him, collect him some glory because he he wants it for some reason.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: And um and it was really after having to leave the mission field because of some health things in in our family that we had to wrestle with.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, have we really let God down at this point?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: How mad is he now that we're not the missionaries that we we've been planning to be for all these years?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and it was in in that place that um was able to hear uh from from the word and from helpful resources to it for the Lord's kind rebuke of what kind of father do you think I am?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that that's the way, oh, I'm tolerating you.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of father tolerates their kid or is just putting up with um their son?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it was from that place of really starting to see God more clearly that uh I think m my own evangelism, certainly my own walk with the Lord, my my ministry, which uh these days is more to believers than uh unbelievers, um, but full of, much more full of, I I hope, um seeing who God is, clarifying who who God is, how kind He is to us, um and and really appealing to that for uh not just mission, but just life.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: How how would that inform how would that change the way I go to work?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: How would knowing that I have a a a father who is eager to to save and to sanctify and to have me with him how would that change the way I parent, the the way I I live?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: So let's press into that.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's very personal.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: So you've mentioned the glory of God, and um there's there's a chapter in the book, come and see chapter two, the gl the the glory of God and mission.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and I guess there there can be a sense of um we want to raise up the supreme glory of God in all things, and if people are not glorifying God, um then we need to get them to glorify God because God glorifies God.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: And there's that there's that kind of theological driver um for mission.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: So t tell me the journey that you've gone on in in terms of how glory and mission relate to one another.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: I would start by saying there is uh there is this sense in Scripture where I I hope we f we we agree with scripture and feel this holy discontent, even a holy angst that the worship and the praise that the one true God alone deserves, that that is being given to idols and to um man-made faiths and and and aimed at the creation rather than the creator.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so there is that idea of um the praise that is due to the Lord.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we we want we want him to be praised uh because he's good, he's he is uh he is God, he's the one true God.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: At the same time uh the I've had friends who maybe they've listened to to too much John Piper.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you can listen to too much, John, actually.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: But um I don't think they've I don't know if they've received that teaching the way he would always intend it, but it can come across as, well, who cares if God loves you?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Just glorify him, and that's the most loving thing he can do, is to let you um praise him, let you build up his glory bank.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it can be communicated in much more of an Islamic way than a biblical way, that Allah is just out to see the whole world submit to him and give him the glory that's due to his name.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a man, very manly way, manly, not that's not uh a very human way of thinking of glory, as opposed to often the Bible is talking about God's glory going out.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it's um to give God the glory isn't to capture some of it and throw it back at him, but that it goes further that um we are when we're not living according to his ways, think Israel in um in the Old Testament certainly I'm guilty as well.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: We don't magnify his name, we actually denigrate, we keep his glory from going forward for more people to see, so that they might be caught up into uh into knowing and seeing and glorifying God.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so I see a lot more now that I kind of read scripture with a little bit of a different lens, I see a lot more of God, his concern for his glory is that it would not that it would come back to him, but it would be seen further and further and further, his goodness, his love, um, that that we glorify him by helping that be seen by more people so that they can come and enjoy him because he loves them.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, yeah.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean so in in in in the book we kind of had a look have a look at sort of Isaiah, and there's there's a lot of stuff there about God says in in Isaiah chapter um forty-two, you know, um, I will not give my glory to another.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um but what's fascinating about that is that he's just been spending the the the first half of the chapter kind of glorifying my servant.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: Behold my servant whom I uphold, my chosen one, in whom is all my delight, and he will you know bring salvation to the nations.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: I won't give my glory to another other than him.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so God is absolutely supremely concerned um for the glory of Christ.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: But that's when once you read it in that Trinitarian focus, uh, it really makes sense that that is not a um that's not a denial of what Jesus says in John 17.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it's just that John 17 um said you know in Hebrew rather than in Greek.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: In John 17, uh Jesus says, Father, I desire that they also whom you have given me may be with me where I am, and to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: And and the glory that the Father gives to the Son is then glory that he gives to his people as they come in on it.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so there is this fierce divine zeal that the Father has for the Son by the Spirit.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: But that fierce zeal is that overflowing thing that is to and and so that those who come in on the fierce self-glorification of the Trinity Those who come in on that are coming in on an other centered love and joy and and zeal that is to have this ripple effect and out to the nations.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what's beautiful about that in John 20.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: He kind of breathes on the disciples the spirit and and says, you know, now go with this forgiving message, you know, out to the nations so that so that it's not so much uh an up and in glory that we're constantly trying to draw ourselves up to God, but but God's glory comes first in this outflowing um spirit-led flow so that in Christ and with Christ we go out to the nations.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think that's a game changer in mission.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: I've had a lot of people ask me about God's glory.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh well, why doesn't it make him um kind of this egotist uh if he's just all about his glory?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and I, you know, the answer I've usually heard is, well, God's the only one that actually deserves glory, so it doesn't make him an egotist.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I think there's some something to that.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I also think to to remember God as Father, Son, and Spirit, and that the Father longs to has always shared his glory with the Son, and the Son comes saying, I I want to see the Father glorified.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh all of a sudden you see a God who's not a uh I think I think I've heard you say that not a glory monger, but a glory sharer.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um glorifying the father, father glorifying the son, the spirit magnifying and glorifying both.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's actually this really beautiful um generosity.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um not uh not a hoarding, but a sharing.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, and then I get the I get to go and and go out into the world in mission and not care about my glory because I've just been trained by watching God the Father, Spirit, Son, and Spirit.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm just sharing glory.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm just giving the invitation.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just pointing to um the ones that are truly breathtaking.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I'm free.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that that helps because there are a couple of times, um, for instance, in in Ezekiel 20 and Ezekiel 36, the Lord says, Um, I do not act for your sake, but for the sake of my name or the for the sake of my glory.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, those two are often quite interchangeable, name and glory, but he says, I I will not act for your sake, I will act for the sake of my glory.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: But again, I I once once you understand that there is this triune self-giving glory to God, he's not saying um I won't act for you, I'll I'll act to beat myself up.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's more the sense of um I I've got a friend who was uh walking down a corridor once and and he heard some high heels on on the hard floor behind him.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: And as he came to the door, he opened the door because he knew there was a woman behind him, and he opened the door, and this woman went past, but she kind of narrowed her eyes at him and she said, I hope you're not opening that door for me because I'm a lady.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: And uh he had this brilliant comeback, which uh it's I I always have my comebacks about two weeks too late, but like in the moment, he said, No, I'm opening the door because I'm a gentleman.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: So she went through.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's that sense, it's that sense of he's not acting for the sake of that person and what the state of that person is, he's acting from a sense of who he is, right?
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: He happens to be gentlemanly.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that he sees a damsel in distress and he can't help himself, right?
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's not because she's a lady, it's because he's a gentleman.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's not it's not for our sake that Jesus comes and saves us, as though he just he he just can't help himself when he sees our helpless state.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's it is an initiative of Jesus.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is what he is like down to his bootstraps into all eternity.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: He is always the God who gives.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so that.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: That and that is his glory.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: His glory is to save.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: His gl and it like in scripture, his glory is always expressed in salvation, actually.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's always expressed in him going out from himself to enlighten that which is currently dark, or to save that that which is currently lost.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's this determination always to take the initiative in salvation.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: We never pull grace out of him.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: His glory is that he always overflows from himself, and that is his triune nature.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and then you put that together with the the missio day, which you know we sort of explain in the book as as this sort of Latin phrase that's you know, the mission of God is not so much something that God decides to do one day, but is caught up with who he essentially and eternally has always been, a father who has always had a light, Christ, and and that radiance by the Spirit, he has always been a God who is outgoing in that sense.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: So that you know, you know, people like William Carey are sometimes called the father of modern missions and all that sort of thing.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: And we understand what people mean by that, but there is a father who really is the founder of missions and and always has been.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that that just makes such a difference, I think, in as as as we think about mission.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think the those Ezekiel passages, and I think of there at the end of Deuteronomy, uh in those contexts where God's people are they're just in the midst of rebellion.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think of Moses saying, You're gonna go in the land, you're gonna rebel, you're gonna defame the name of God.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but God's going to graciously act for his name.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: He's going to actually kick you out of the land so that when the nations walk by and see the destruction, they'll say, What happened here?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Was God not God enough?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: Was he not strong enough?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: I guess he's not the real true No, no, no.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Israel rebelled.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: They they they left the one true God and worshipped idols, and so he acted for his name.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: And though there that he will show himself holy before the nations.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so even um even acting for my name, or I'm I'm I'm doing this for particularly in uh in moments of rebellion by God's people, what's the the most loving thing he can do for them is to discipline them.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: But also for the for the on-watching world, the most loving thing he can do is show them, no, what's happened to my uh around Israel isn't because of a uh uh something lacking in me.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's because of their own their own sin.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so the nations can see the destruction and say, oh wow, okay, this is this too is from from Yahweh.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: He is God.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um and even that could bring nations to him.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it's always it's always God who is taking the initiative, always God acting for the sake of who he who he is.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he he loves because of who he is, not because of who we are.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: And in taking that initiative, the there is there is that that is the the impetus for for mission to go to go out.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: Which which I think like as as as you look at the state of the world today, um and you start to wonder, well, I I wonder whether the world is ready for the gospel.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if the world is ready to receive Jesus as its Lord or you know, questions like that.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder, you know, how um how ripe the world is for a righteous harvest of of of faith and souls, and and it's like, well, those are the wrong questions, aren't they?
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like, has Jesus risen from the dead?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Has the Spirit been poured out from on high?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Does the Father still desire to seek worshippers today?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, yeah.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: So so the God of glory is always taking the initiative, and we just get swept up in his purposes rather than rather than reacting to to the world or letting the world take the lead.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's very important.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: So in the book we kind of talk about um the doctrine of God and mission, the glory of God and mission.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: We have a sort of a Bible overview um in terms of how uh the Bible is a missionary document, speaking about this God of glory who is always um reaching out to the nations.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: And when we get into the second half of the the book, um which which is more sort of your your half of the book, um Justin, um we get into the kind of the history of mission.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the one of the surprising things, I think, as the church um really starts to get going in the first century AD, it was quite a um it was quite a phenomenon in the ancient world that you had this missionary faith at all.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um because ancient religion and the pagan religions, if there was a new god on the scene, you didn't all convert to that one god and become incre you know incredibly zealous for Apollo.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um right?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: You you would just add Apollo to the pantheon of gods that you already worshipped, right?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: And you would just like keep on adding to the pantheon, and and there wasn't that sort of impetus to to convert to this new god and to try to see the whole world converted to this new god.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: So what is what is the difference with Christians?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Why why why are they so different in the first century?
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a great question.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it's one we didn't get this get to explore very much in the book.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I would have to say it's because they've met Jesus.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: What's what's the difference is they've they've they've um they've met the risen Lord.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know I I think that and I think I've I I've learned this from you in a lot of ways, the the the greatest apologetic against pluralism for me is still the the the nature of God.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: So if if we can not to go back to chapter one in the book, but to you know, when you when you think of Zeus and you think of his mission, uh what's he what's he want in the world?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Where he he wants to be the the top dog on Olympus, he wants to receive the most praise possible, and he would like to carouse with human women whenever he's he gets the chance.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's the mission of Zeus.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, why is that his mission?
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's because he's a uh egotistical maniac.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's because who he is is uh is half crazy, 100% full-blooded um pig.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's who he is.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so, of course, that's his mission in the world.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: And to encounter a God who um, so the first century, who has just laid down his life to sweep you up into his family, who's just offered his son as a sacrifice, who's just um seen resurrection from the dead, uh what all the things you could point to, the the new about Christianity in that context, um, for me just blows Zeus out of the water, or Pollos or Athena, or um and so I think that when you hold up man-made gods next to the true and living God, um, there's there's not really the option of just adding him to this little collection of action figures that look a lot like G.I.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: Joe.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it it's it's just not it's just not the same.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think they I think the Christian uh um theology of conversion doesn't allow that either.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: We've been born again by the Spirit.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I can't just add, I can't just keep Zeus.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's a lie.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's not real.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've met the living God.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I think theologically, that's the biggest reason.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think myssiologically doing a little bit of comparison shopping between the one true God and and false gods is is uh really compelling for the um for the fair inquisitor.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_03: Hi folks, it's Thomas Thoroughgood here, media producer at Speak Life.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: You might recognise my voice as the guy who does the filler bits on the podcast.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's part of my job to think of how we can include you more in the work of Speak Life and bring you behind the scenes, if you will.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_03: And so we have a very exciting thing called the Speak Life Discord server.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's an online platform where you can interact with other Speak Life supporters and the Speak Life team.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: We have bonus content, creative theological discussion, and lots of fun along the way.
• 31:39
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• 31:44
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, back to the podcast.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so from from the outset, Christianity has been this uh missionary religion, proselytizing, um seeking conversion, seeking to persuade others.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: And down through the centuries that that has been um the path of the Christian church.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um you talk about in in chapter eight the mission legacy of the Reformation.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um so what what kind of happens in the in the 16th century um to to shape those missionary instincts that the church has always had?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Trying to cover the history of mission in one chapter, in two chapters, just so challenging.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so, but we so in the in the the first history chapter, it is a 30,000-foot flyover, right?
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: And if we only get the zero in on one one period of time, no one in the right mind would pick the reformation for mission history.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um but we must not be in our right minds.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um because I think that's that's been unfairly uh leveled against the reformers that they weren't about mission, they were just about theological minutiae and um, you know, arguing over um secondary, tertiary things, or uh they're in their ivory towers, but um to be able to go and look at these um uh these movements and the the gospel centrality of it, the proclamational heart that that you know Luther summed up his whole ministry.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a ministry of the word.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: I want the word to get out.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we have to assume that everyone in Europe was a was a a converted believer to really assume that the the work of the reformers wasn't missional.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but of course that wasn't the case.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: So uh a couple things we highlight there is um the five solas.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: So what compels our mission, what um what ensures our mission?
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's it's that that there is a salvation offered, and it's offered by grace alone, through faith alone, through Christ alone, and so we proclaim Christ, we we call men and women to repent and believe.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's for God's glory alone, and we do all of that because um God's word is our supreme authority, scripture alone is our supreme authority.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so even just the those um those kind of core doctrines really help drive mission.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and then you start to look at some of the things the reformers, other things they taught, whether it's that's the the um uh priesthood of all believers, really emphasizing that.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that means that now uh ministry, evangelism, mission, whatever we want to call it, doesn't just belong to the clergy.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now every every believer, every church member has a role to play.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the emphasis on uh the scripture in the vernacular, um uh rescuing scripture from the Latin strangold uh of the the Roman Catholic Church of the day set off.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what do what William Carey, Father of Modern Mission, what was he most known for?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's translating the Bible into, I think, seven Indian languages and parts of the Bible into twenty-six other languages, and and really beginning this um real mass movement of Bible translation in the world.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: But that started uh I wouldn't say it started, that really picked up steam through the Reformation, getting the the Bible into German, getting it into French, getting it into English.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so it was a natural progression for later generations to say, well, we need to get it into Tamil, into Urdu, and into Arabic and into Hindi.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um so those are some of the things we I try to pull out there and uh say we're really indebted to that uh to that those first those two or three generations there.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then as the book sort of winds up, we we sort of tackle that very central question about what is the mission of the church, and and I guess um people's minds and hearts go in sort of a couple of different directions.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: People talk about um the Great Commandment and the Great Commission, you know, the um the there is you know, love your neighbor as yourself and and um and and there's the Adamic kind of mission that we're given as well, to you know, take dominion over the world and look after creation and that sort of thing, and and people kind of put that that level of um creation care and looking after your neighbor and deed ministry on the one hand, and then there is that great commission that's go forth and tell um and make disciples and that sort of thing.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so there's there's been all sorts of controversy and discussion about that down through the ages.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: Justin, just clear it up for us all now.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, what is the mission of the church?
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I uh well I'd really love to make you do the the bulk of answering that.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know one of the things that's helped me think about this question, though, and uh share it briefly there um in the book, uh, but want you to definitely speak in on this question.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: When we think about revelation, and and so again, I want us to go back to God, who God is, and so mission at its heart is people finding God or God finding people.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: And um and so when we think about people being able to know God, we're talking about revelation.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: And uh theologians, I I think have rightly talked about two kinds of revelation: that there is what we call general revelation, that the heavens declare the glory of the Lord, that um that you can look at creation and know some things about God.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: Romans 1, um the the divine nature of God, the the the power of God.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um but we but Paul is very clear there that that's that's not that's not saving revelation.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so what do we need instead?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: We need God to reveal himself.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: We need him to speak especially to us, to to reveal a saving word, a saving message, a saving revelation to us.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not general revelation, that's special revelation.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this question of uh mercies of ministries of mercy versus ministries of proclamation, I think they actually map on well to those areas of revelation that I can love my neighbor, I can serve my neighbor, and and I should.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: And um the church can do good deeds for the world, and we should.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um because that that will reveal something.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: It reveals something of God.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: It might reveal that, oh, there is a maybe there is a God and He's kind.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's a God and He is patient because I've been patient with my kids and someone's seen that.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um but that's not gonna save, that's not saving revelation.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so those ministries of proclamation is really what will say that the gospel is the power of God for salvation.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: Faith comes by hearing, hearing the word of God.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so however someone wants to kind of take those two bits and join them together in their church or in their mission agency or in their NGO, um, I think being able to keep those things in mind, yes, do good deeds so that your neighbors might see them and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um but we uh we have a ministry of of reconciliation that is a a message ministry from a word-centered God.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so how do you how are you gonna do how you gonna balance those as a church, as an individual?
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that's uh as I I contributed part of that chapter, um, that was some of the my own reflection.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: Would love to hear how how you've how you've been thinking about that recently, maybe how you've seen um ministries, churches, mission agencies come at that question in in a helpful way.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting that you mentioned churches, ministries, mission um mission agencies.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think part of what makes this question so urgent is the proliferation of parachurch ministries and mission agencies alongside churches.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: I th I think if you didn't have a million and one parachurch organizations out there in the world, it becomes less of an issue because if I'm supporting the church in Malawi or the church in Botswana or the church in Brazil or the church in Mongolia, um then there is already a unity to the way in which I want to support churches and church networks that has the the word of Christ at its center, but that absolutely um cannot fail to have ministries of mercy kind of attached to it because at the at the center is a worshiping community by word and sacrament.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and so the message is right at the heart of this community.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: But if that if if that community is not loving one another as Christ has loved us, then it's not a true church.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: But but already the the order of things and the centrality of the word and the message to that is is kind of held because it's it's all through worshiping communities.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm part of the problem because here am I part of Speak Life, which is a parachurch organization.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um but as soon as you have a million and one parachurch organizations, then you've got the question of, oh okay, well, I'll give ten pounds a month to speak life because I like, you know, word-driven mission, but I'll also give ten pounds a month to tier fund who who deal with ministries of mercy.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then you get some people who really like giving like£12 to Tier Fund and only eight pounds to Speak Life, and then you have other people who and and part of the issue is this proliferation of of of ministries and how do you unite them around the words such that you can't fail to have word-based ministry that leads to mercy ministry.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that also has that order to it.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because I I do think it's important to have that order to things.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: One thing that's really helped me in my thinking is is thinking about the two Adams.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that in Genesis 1, what you have is to the first Adam is you know, have dominion and rule over the birds of the air and the fish of the sea and and everything that you know crawls upon the the earth and all of that.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that there is that creation care and ministries of mercy and love your neighbor kind of stuff that is given to Adam.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I, as a child of Adam, never get beyond that, ever.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: And by the flesh, and in this world, I am I am constantly under those marching orders to look after creation and to look after my neighbor as I.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Love myself.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there is always that but the there is the second Adam who comes along and you know, to use a theological term, Adam uh the second Adam, Christ, recapitulates the work of Adam.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: He comes as the second Adam to raise the the life and and the work of that first Adam to a new height.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: He goes to a different tree, not the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but he goes out of obedience, not out of disobedience, to bring life for the world, not death for the world.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: And he rises up and breathes his spirit out on me, and he basically says, Rule and have dominion, making disciples of all nations and baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and so that by the Spirit Spiritual Humanity has this raised up commission that the second Adam has given us.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: And the the means by which dominion is to be had over the new humanity is word and sacrament.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we make baptize we we make disciples baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so the the commission that is laid upon uh the new humanity by the new Adam is a word and sacrament spirit-filled mission that is to be the leading edge of how these pilot plants of the kingdom go out into the world to pioneer this way of Jesus that will have all sorts of mercy ministries sort of attached to it.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: But word and sacrament sort of take that that reverse position in terms of in terms of the order, but you can't have faith without works.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, you cannot have the message without the mercy that sort of follows in behind it.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say as a Christian, as as one who is in the second Adam, there is a priority to the message that can never do without the mercy stuff.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um but also I never I never fail to be a child of Adam as well.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: By the flesh, I'm still connected to Adam.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: And as a citizen of the United Kingdom and as a citizen of planet Earth, uh I am to obey those structures and to and to work out that man that creation mandate that is that is upon me.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: But those those are some of the things.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: What do you what do you make of that?
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: When someone says the mission of the church is they're they're thinking in that the the cosmic ways that maybe that God's mission is to renew the whole new heavens and the new earth.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: He's gonna renew everything.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think we get in trouble when when we forget that there is an order of things.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: So not just an order of word-centric with ministries of mercy around it, but even we know we're currently the the kingdom has been inaugurated.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: We're in the this overlap of the ages, and uh much of what Christ has come to accomplish, there's a there's a portion of it that he said it is done, but there's a portion that waits for the second coming.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes when we're talking about this issue, I think especially in the U.S.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't know if other other parts are as guilty of this.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um we want to we want to in our mission do some of the second coming stuff for Jesus.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so we want to uh bring a peace on earth that will cause us to beat our swords into plow shares and the lion to lay down with the lamb.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: We we we want to um and and uh the heart behind that's great.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it is.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I think there's a little bit of we we we think we're capable of consummating the kingdom when really some of that we we along with creation we ache and we groan until Jesus comes and and we receive our full adoption as sons and creation is then renewed, and um and a lot of these things that we want to do now will be done then by God's grace.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think that's just something, particularly in the American context, we're we're guilty of.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um Yeah, eschatology is is huge in this question.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um two final questions.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um we sort of we we round up round out the book on the global church and and having a look at that.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um you're you're sitting there in the States in the mix in the midst of the the largest spiritual shift that America has ever had, because in the last twenty years uh the US church has lost twenty million no forty million, in fact, forty million uh regular churchgoers um since the turn of the century.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: Forty million uh Americans have kind of voted with their feet and left church in the US.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a vast um kind of spiritual shift in the US.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: But then we sit there and and you know you work with Lausanne as well, and you'll you've got this global perspective and the church is increasing in other parts of the world.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, like how is the church going when we take a global perspective?
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: Luckily it's Christ's church, and uh so he's um the church is in good hands, but uh the the yeah, I I think you the the big picture is that the church in the West, um, at least in terms of membership, is receding.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um we're finding that a lot of that is churches, some churches for the first time, say in the U.S.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: have updated their membership roles in in like 20 years, and people that haven't been attending, this is the first time they've ever said, okay, that you're not a we can't count this person as a member of our church.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: So you're seeing um in one denomination in the U.S.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of their churches doing that, and they're realizing, oh, these people have been gone for decades.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um but but now it's only now showing up in the numbers because we've only now uh updated our membership roles.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um But the yeah, the church in the West is is shrinking in terms of um certainly in terms of inherited faith, and I know that's not a thing, but that's um the the the churches in the U.S.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: were were built on inherited faith that um I grew up in a Christian family, so I go to church.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: Of course I'm a Christian, I'm not a Muslim.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of nominalism has been the the kind of Christianity for years, and but now there's nothing to keep those nominal believers in the church because in the wider culture it's there's no advantage to being a Christian, it's becoming a dis more of a disadvantage.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like I'm slipping into kind of cultural commentary in this answer, but um but as you mentioned that yeah, the church is growing globally.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: 77% in the world.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so that's good news.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: I uh I think some people in the West, when I first say that, will think, oh no, we're the minority now.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, we are the minority.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: We're maybe not used to that.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: But oh man, what would William Carey say if he knew that the church had grown so much in India?
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: Or what would what would David Livingston say uh to know that Africa has more Christians than any continent in the world today?
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that by 2050, half of all Christians will be African.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he'd I I'm sure he's celebrating somewhere.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um I would but yeah, he's he would be thrilled.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: He he lost children and and teammates and a wife and eventually his own life to see that happen.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so um in some some sense that's well no, in every sense that's that's something to just be so grateful for.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Africa was the graveyard of missions, of missionaries.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: So you packed your things in coffins to go there.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: You didn't uh you didn't plan on coming back.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um so God is good in that.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: And the church in these places uh is be becoming more and more uh less of a mission field and now more of a mission force.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a friend in London who um he had been there for about five years and said, I've had three people stop me on the street to share the gospel with me.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: Two were African and one was Chinese.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so you see missionaries coming from the majority world, Asia, Latin America, Africa, back to um the lands that sent missionaries to them to begin with, as well as new places.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's a uh a network called Mani in Africa, the Movement for African National Initiatives, M A N I.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_00: And their vision is to see the the remaining unreached people groups on their continent reached, and then a very concerted partnership to see the gospel go from Africa into the Middle East and and into Central Asia.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um and they've got thousands of churches and um across denominations, across borders working together to to to see that happen.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it's um it's actually a really exciting time globally.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and I'm also hopeful for the the church in the West, not just because of missionaries from the majority world, but just I I think that um maybe it is a a refining time, but that's not always a bad thing.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm an optimist.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against the church.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, we are we are seeing that.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um so Justin, uh tell me what what do you hope for this book?
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's called a theology and and history of mission.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's the subtitle, a theology and history of mission, which probably doesn't help itself.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_00: But um most theologies and missions of of and and histories of mission are um 350 to 500 pages, and they're meant for seminaries or maybe university courses, um, and that's not what we wanted to do.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: We wanted to write something that wouldn't wouldn't dumb down, wouldn't uh in any way, but would make us accessible to the church uh some of the best uh of theology and history of mission.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's that's the aim, is that churches would use use the book and um and help their people catch a vision of the missionary God, how he's been at work throughout history and how he's at work today.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um we are uh we are working on now uh it's been drafted a study guide to go along with it, or really a facilitator's guide, uh, so that small groups can just have more helps to use it and interact with it.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: So that that would be the goal.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: We want to see God's people mobilized and um uh you're just uh Christians who love Jesus begin to to see what he's doing in the world and and why.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe then they they start to go and tell because they've they've come and gotten a few chapters of being with Jesus, of of looking at Jesus, of seeing the beauty of the triune God and what he's doing in the world, and then they want to join him on his mission.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, hope it's uh it's a a tool that really serves the the local church.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let me echo that.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, we we just pray that people would come and see Jesus and uh and want to overflow with those uh good good words of good news out to the nations.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Justin, thank you so much for uh joining us.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_01: Is there a way that people can keep up with uh some of your work?
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_00: I would love for anyone out there to to connect with me on on social media, whether that's uh uh Twitter, I am the Justin Shell, S-C-H-E-L-L.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um there.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm on Facebook and uh would love to just if uh if if I can serve anyone, would love to do that.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_00: Happy to have them reach out to me as well.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm um uh I don't know, can can maybe you put my email in the show notes for for people that would um want to reach out for any reasons.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh a lot of my day-to-day work uh with somewhat with Union Amazon is uh uh coming alongside of churches that are maybe it's it's mission, maybe it's theological education.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um but uh just come alongside and and try to be an encouragement or a resource.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: So would love for anyone to to reach out if that's uh something they need.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um otherwise, yeah, just um lasagne.org and and um thealo.gy is is union's website.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's t-h-e-ol.g y.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um it looks great written down.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's always it's always a mouthful to actually say to people.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: Theology with a dot before the GY.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: Justin Shell, thank you so much for joining me.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, my pleasure.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's good to be with you, Glenn.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_03: Well, there we go.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_03: Hope you enjoyed that conversation.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm excited to announce Union Publishing are offering some free copies.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_03: So if you share this episode on Instagram, Facebook, or Twitter and tag at speaklifeuk, we will enter you into the drawer and a few blessed winners.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_03: I can't say lucky, can I?
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_03: Uh blessed winners, will receive a free copy of Come and See.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_03: The deadline for entry is Friday, the 30th of June.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_03: So either share this podcast episode or share the link to the YouTube video when that comes out next week, and tag at speaklifeuk and we'll enter you into the drawer.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_03: But that's not all.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_03: Union Publishing are also offering a 40% off promo code for all Speak Life listeners.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_03: The code is Speak Life S-P-E-A-K L I F E.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_03: All lowercase, no spaces.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_03: So any of you listening can get 40% off when you order.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_03: Come and see on the Union Publishing website.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_03: That's unionpublishing.org, and you just need to apply the promo code Speak Life at the checkout, and then you'll get 40% off.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_03: Hope that makes sense.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_03: Possibility of free copy or 40% off.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_03: Either way, enjoy reading the book.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, well, now that's over with.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_03: I'm very excited to be joined by Simon.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_03: Hello, Simon.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_03: Hello, Thomas.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_03: We've got an additional voice doing this outro today.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_03: So Simon has joined us at Speak Life in the office for a week.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm a one week only special offer.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, we're well, it's sad it's flown by so quickly.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_03: We're recording this on Friday.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_03: But uh yeah, so who are you, Simon?
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_03: And uh what are you doing here?
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so most of the time I'm I'm a student uh at theological college, but this week I'm coming to get a bit of experience and uh see what Speak Life is about, um, hopefully be a bit useful and enjoy some time down in Eastbourne by the seaside.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, it's it's been wonderful having you and getting your insights on some of the things we've been working on.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_03: How have you found the uh experience of working at Speak Life for a week?
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's been it's been really good.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um had you got a chance to be involved in a few things, uh see some of the stuff that you're working on, and uh having seen it from I guess from the other side of watching and listening to podcasts and stuff to see some of the stuff that the work that goes into it.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, it's been really fun.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, brilliant.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_03: That's wonderful to hear.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_03: And if if uh any of you guys listening want maybe a slightly similar to experience to what Simon has had, uh you can go on our website speaklife.org.uk forward slash foundry, which is our kind of training programme, and we have these week-long intensives.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_03: There's one coming up in September, so that's a chance to meet the team, learn the craft, and catch the vision.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_03: And then we also have a year out programme if you want to join us for a year and do some really kind of hands-on work with us, like Simon's done this week.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, so we're now taking applications for 2024 slash 2025, I believe.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_03: So that's exciting.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I thought maybe now uh we could take a look at some of the comments we received on our previous episode of the Speak Life podcast, which was uh about Philip Schofield and Holly Willoughby and what this reveals about all of us.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_03: Have you uh watched that video or listened to that episode, Simon?
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I watched that at the time it was it came out, yeah.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, brilliant.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_03: So this is something we've been doing recently on the podcast, just uh diving into uh what our wonderful uh listeners have been thinking.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_03: So here are some of the YouTube comments we got.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the first one is from George Platt3347.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Glenn.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_03: I was hoping you would do something on this.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_03: I really appreciate your gospel-centred analysis of cultural issues.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_03: Keep it coming, brother.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for that encouragement, George, Susan Dixon.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_03: As always, thanks, Glenn, a US friend here.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_03: Do not know about this, but what good helpful insights.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and then a slightly more critical one, it has to be said, from Polska 4968.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_02: As much as Philip went on about being gay, you pretty much do the same by repeating that you're a Christian several times.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_02: Who cares?
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_02: Keep it to yourself.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's interesting.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thanks for that comment.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_03: Polska 4968.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, um Glenn is a Christian.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_03: We're a Christian ministry, and uh and we make videos about things from a Christian perspective.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_03: Is that okay?
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_02: I think so.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for those comments, guys.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_03: And if you have any questions, comments, encouragements, disagreements about this episode or previous episodes of the Speak Life Podcast, do send them to info at speaklife.org.uk.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_03: Do subscribe to the podcast on your podcatcher of choice and leave us a review on uh Apple, that always helps.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_03: And uh we'll we'll read out some of your correspondence on air in future episodes.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_03: So it's it's been really lovely to receive your thoughts.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you, Simon.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's been great to have another a companion in the studio for doing these podcast filler bits.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for having me.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's been great to have you this week, and thanks for listening, everyone.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_03: We will be back next week.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_03: Goodbye.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_03: Goodbye.