Latest / TIPS Podcast / TIPS Forum 2024 Discussion: Lesego Moshikaro-Amani, Elize Hattingh and Amélia Machava

Transcript

TIPS Forum 2024 Discussion: Lesego Moshikaro-Amani, Elize Hattingh and Amélia Machava · TIPS Podcast

• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Trade and Industrial Policy Strategies Official Podcast, the show where we delve into the fascinating world of economics and its impact on global development.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your host.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: My name is Lisa Homchigaru Amani, and today we are running a special Tips Forum panel discussion with special guests joining me today, Elise and Amelia.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: So the theme of this year is the small business sector, inclusive growth and industrial policy in South Africa, which is aimed at driving the industrialization through unlocking the small business sector in the country.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: But we also have Amelia who is from Maputo and she is actually a teacher.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, at Eduardo Mondale University in Mozambique.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: And she's also a PhD student in development society.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: She has a master's degree in rural sociology and development management from the same university.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: So most of her research focuses on the perceptions of the Nakala special economic zones contribution to local socioeconomic development, while her other research interests focus on the development of policies, particularly in SEZ policies and industrialization in the SADEC region.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Amelia.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's so nice to have you.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm really looking forward to seeing what Mozambique has done in terms of trying to develop the small business sector, particularly within the SEZ.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there are definitely lessons that I'm sure South Africa can draw from some of your work.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then we also have Elise from South Africa, and she'll be sharing her insights on sustainability and also transitioning to a green economy and how SMEs can be better included, particularly looking at women, SMEs as well as youth-owned SMEs and also SMEs that are owned by people living with disabilities.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: So Elise is a sustainability expert with over 15 years of experience promoting sustainable development, particularly in Africa.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: She holds a master's degree in sustainable development and management from Stillimbosch University.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: And also she's actively participated in numerous initiatives to decarbonize the economy and also supported marginalized groups such as youth, women, and black-owned enterprises, and now also people living with disability enterprises.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: And she also founded Green Talent, which is a sustainability career consultancy, and it's been involved in various roles, including, for example, small business coaching and also developing green economy entrepreneurial development curricula.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: I know that Elise is very, very passionate about the small business sector, but all things green economy and sustainability related.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: So welcome.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: Really good to have you today and looking forward to some of the insights that you're going to share with us, especially now, you know, as we see the world transitioning to this green economy.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it will be interesting to see, you know, opportunities for small businesses, particularly those that are women-owned.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: So going back to Amelia, your presentation is going to be looking at inclusive development of micro, small, as well as medium enterprises around the SEZs in the Sadek area.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: And particularly, as mentioned in your bio, you will be looking at the Nakala SEZ, which is your case study.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: And this is an SEZ in Mozambique, right?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: And then Elise, you are doing work around SMEs in the green space, but also looking at the just energy transition and opportunities again for small businesses as well as barriers for small businesses in this area or in the field.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: And you're also looking at fostering inclusive green growth for SMEs participation in the just transition.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, to get into it, I think before we even get into the topic of why you see small businesses being important to the economy, which they are, I'll just be interested in finding out why the small business sector, like what actually attracted you to going into, you know, looking at the sector that most of the time is under research, but obviously very, very important.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: Emilia, I'll start with you.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: What drew you to SMMEs and actually conducting your PhD in supporting SMEs, especially with regards to SECs?
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you, Lisa Fog, for inviting me for this meeting.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think that answering your question about why the small business is vital to economic development and the importance for the sector.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think that the small business can call strategy to drive the economy for the local areas.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Another point can be a strategy to increase the job.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: Even the people who have a low skills can do a small business.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: I will give you an example from Mozambique.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: Normally in Mozambique, who do a small business, who has a low level of education, who doesn't have a formal job, is a person who doesn't go to school.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: These people normally do a business.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Selling something in the street, selling something in the local place, even in a town when.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think that this activity is important for the country, even my country, because our economy is basically become informal activity.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: Another point I can share is that a small business is opportunity for the woman.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'll share my experience from my country.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Normally, we know that the women and the men are equal.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: But in a small business, who do is a woman?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because the majority of the population is a woman.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: The woman must support his family.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: The woman is the head of the family.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: The most people who do small business is a woman.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I say that small business is a strategy to give opportunity for women to get money.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: The last one, I think that the small business is a strategy to disseminate the technology and innovation.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: When we have somebody who does a small business, he needs to use technology to share his business, to publish his business.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: Even me, I'm a businesswoman.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: I use technology to publish.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: I use technology to buy outside in Mozambique.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I say that is a strategic tool, technology and innovation.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: I can say that small business is a vital for the economy in the country.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, thank you so much for sharing those interesting insights.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's very important.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I think also, you know, when we look at Mozambique or when we look in South Africa as well as across the world, we do recognize the very important role of small businesses, particularly to employment creation, right?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I think also with some of the things you've mentioned, for example, with the role of women in the small business sector, I think that, you know, that's something that we also see in South Africa.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: So at TIPS, we've done some work looking at SME data in our small business real economy bulletin.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: And we see that, for example, when it comes to small businesses, especially the informal sector, because you know, when you are talking about women in Mozambique, you know, selling stuff on the streets, that's the same thing that we see in South Africa as well.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what would be interesting, I think we shared the data saying that, for example, we know that black people in South Africa own 95% of small informal enterprises, but actually we don't look at women, but I think women would, you know, own quite a large share of those informal enterprises in the country.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for sharing that.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think I'm also just interested in, you know, some of your research findings from your PhD.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then also on that, I just want to find out that when you are looking at small businesses in the Nakala SEZ, what's the profile of those small businesses that you are seeing?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: Because I can imagine with SCZs, I'm sure you have to be a formal business, B V A T registered.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: So do you get informal businesses?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: But also, yeah, what are the types of businesses that you see in Nakala?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Nakala is a rural area.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, okay.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: You can imagine is a rural area.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: The people who live there, they have a low, low level of education.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: They live basically on agriculture.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: The kind of business who those people do is like sell fish, uh, because Nagala there are beach, these activities there, fish and agriculture.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: But when the ex came, Nagala, especially economic reasons, this activity changed.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: The local people, they are doing a new activity.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: It can be business, but the type of business are changing.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now they are selling something like food because they are factors who produce food, their factors produce material to build, uh, their factors produce many kinds of things.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Those people they go there and buy and sit in a street, in another local, they sell.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: But they are another type of business, small enterprises.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: The majority of these enterprises not become in Nagala.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's become from Maputu, Beira, is another province.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: Nagala is in the north of Mozambique, in a rural area.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's why those businesses it's not become the majority, it's not become in Nagala because uh the Nagala people has uh some specific uh challenge.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: They come to Mabut, somebody has a company, and they are build their company in Nagala to sell computer, to sell another equipment.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: Those enterprises, they are facing challenge because they are not resistant in Nagala, they are resistant in Maput.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think you answered it very well and also appreciate you, I guess, you know, painting what Nakala looks like because I've never been to Maputo, so I actually had no idea what's in the area and what it looks like.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I really appreciate you giving the insights in terms of you know what Nakala looks like, as well as a profile of, I guess, the demographics of the people in the region, and also in terms of you know what are the types of small businesses that are seen in that area.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: So, Elise, over to you.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: You've done quite a bit of work in the small business sector, again, particularly looking at small businesses in the green economy.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so a question for you would be: why do you see the small business sector as vital to economic development?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: And what would you say is the importance of the sector in South Africa?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: Another question to you: why the focus on women, youth, and also people living with disabilities?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why do you think that when we are thinking about policies, why does it become important to actually create policies as well as programs that are tailored at those specific groups when it comes to supporting the small business sector?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very happy to join you in this conversation.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's very close to my heart.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it's really important if you're looking at the SDGs and a core focus of South Africa as a mantra of leave no one behind, leave no woman and no child behind.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: We are in a just transition in South Africa, leading towards building a low-carbon economy that is more just and inclusive.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: This is the dream that we have for our country in terms of transformation.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: And from that angle, I strongly believe that it's vital to look at yes, we are decarbonizing our economy, but in that role, who is the people we can't leave behind?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: SMEs, small business, is vital.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's the backbone of the economy.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe the climate change challenges that we're facing, you know, and infrastructure challenges that we're facing in terms of water shortages or clean drinking water to be able to access that renewable energy and also to manage our waste in local communities is best the role of the SME to actually provide a service or a product in those sectors are really important and to respond to the infrastructure challenges that our country is having.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just big businesses' role, but our local communities and rural entrepreneurs and especially female entrepreneurs have an appetite.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: We've seen it in our research, a keen interest to be part of a just transition, not wanting to be left behind, wanting to play a meaningful role, you know, especially also on the social and environmental role for their local economy and local communities to build more resilience.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: No, absolutely.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: And building resilience is really important in this sector, especially because, you know, we've seen, I mean, from the financial crisis in the 2008 to the COVID pandemic, and also now with the impact of load shedding on small businesses, that it becomes really important for the small business sector to actually create resilience, right?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because when these shocks come, we see quite a lot of them not being able to actually sustain themselves.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: But thank you so much for that, Elise.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, you mentioned something that's very important.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: I know this is not part of the questions, but I'm just wondering, like in Mozambique, have you guys started thinking about how I guess climate change impacts on the small business center?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, especially because when you are speaking about Nakala, I mean you're speaking about a rural area and one that is dependent on agriculture, you know, one that is dependent on there's a lot of fishing happening in the space.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do you see climate change impacting on those small businesses?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know if you're able to maybe highlight opportunities for those small businesses, if there are any.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: There is a challenge for small business in Nakala.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: You'll say it's clear and well, that is a rural area.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: The people who live there depend on agriculture.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Agriculture depends on the weather, their link.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: They are selling fishing, it depends the climate change too.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: What's the big challenge I can see in Nagala is that the now has a big industrial.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Those industries become outside, the most of them become outside.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: I can say that it's a special economic zone.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: I try to outside investment to Nagala.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: The pollution this we come from this industrial.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: Now you can imagine we have the activity from it's a corridor who they are linked in some province, in some countries, uh Angola, has the Republic of Congo, Zimbabwe, Zambia.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: They we call it a big company called Nagala Logistica.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: In this place, the most of the material or the factors is put out there.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: They are package in the train and go outside.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: The majority of the industrial are polluted the area.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: Even when I was there uh last year, when we were working for the community, there was a main pollution in the area.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: Even my interview uh told me that 10 years ago they not existed.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: This pollution came with this industrial.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I say that when we are looking for Nagala, we need to design some police regarding the climate change because those industrials are polluted in the area.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Another challenge is a region.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, some places the soil are going, moving.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: Before we implanted the especially economic zones of Nagala, the previous investigator said that when we have those industries, we must look for a reason because it will be the big challenge for Nagala.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because the areas, some parts is higher, and another one is uh can I say Darwin or yeah, I can say Darwin?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how can I say a different way?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: I I think so.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's a big challenge for Nagala in two point region and pollution.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: All right, thank you so much for that.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then just drawing on from that, Elise, how have, I mean, from your experience and having worked with SMEs in the green economy space, how have South African SMMEs responded to climate change and mitigated against some of those risks?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think the focus is more on adaptation, you know, not so much on the mitigation side.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I say with infrastructure challenges in South Africa, they're really stepping up to the challenge because of failed service delivery for reasons that you know some people don't understand.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: It could be even the flooding.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: If we're looking at KZN, our province where there was a provincial disaster with the flooding and also due to the toxic spull from the fertilizer plant that exploded.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, having rivers and all your water bodies being completely polluted and not drinkable, that also presented an opportunity for the entrepreneurs to actually step up to the challenge for water purification, making sure communities get access to clean drinking water.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: At the base, you know, a lot of environmental impact studies, contamination, dams were built.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: So there was a lot of involvement in that area, but that's just one area.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: I also believe, in terms of adaptations, you know, the very poor communities are the most vulnerable to the impacts of climate change.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: If we're looking at the Western Cape, the wildfires, you know, one wildfire in the mountains.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's a season of fires that we had now in 2023, bridging into 2024.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: 5,000 homes of informal settlements burned by one fire at a time.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: And these are wildfires and mountains.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's it's very difficult to contain.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: But the impact of that means it's people that are vulnerable already from living in an informal settlement, not having access to sanitation, water, energy, and then the weather changes impact, even now with the big storms in the Western Cape, you know, people's roofs are dismantled, the storms and the flooding, the water levels that's rising in the wetlands, where a lot of people are having their livelihoods are affected.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I believe these SMEs are stepping up to the challenge in terms of adaptation to provide some sort of resilience in terms of infrastructure.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: But also that, you know, more of these entrepreneurs are at the same time vulnerable with their business premises.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a catch-22.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: They absolutely are.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: But thank you so much for sharing those examples of Cape Town.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: We've really seen how you know floods, fires have really devastated not just Cape Town and KZN, but also obviously impacts on the small business sector.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: And while you were talking, I like that you mentioned that climate change presents challenges, but also opportunities for the small business sector.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'd like to just get your input on what are some of the other barriers that you'd identify when we are looking at SME growth and also especially barriers for women-owned enterprises and youth-owned enterprises.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: We've looked over the last six months in our research, we've looked extensively at business barriers and we categorize them into internal barriers and external barriers.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: So internally is within more the control of the entrepreneur, and the common areas there is really access to finance, their operations, skills, capacity, marketing, access to market, you know, very obvious.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: The kind of ones that a lot of general SMEs, not just green entrepreneurs, are struggling with.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: But then if we're looking at some of the external barriers, I do believe, you know, competitive nature of big businesses.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of the female entrepreneurs, and tomorrow we will have one at the TIPS forum.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Example of Nantan Dazu from Porky Holdings.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: She is a women owned and people with disability owned enterprise.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: And she's actively trying to get into the renewable independent power producer opportunities in the market.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: She's got a very good background also academically and technically, but she's still Not able to really compete.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: She has cases where she has to put down 30 million rand for equity investment.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: She doesn't have the track record of many years being active in the industry to be able to be bankable, to raise that kind of finance and compete.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: And she's forced to sell shares in terms of equity to be able to get that backup from a bigger business.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really tough, you know.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: She also represents a lot of co-ops under her who can't formally compete or even access any of those market opportunities.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: So they often use her vehicle.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: She's got all her tax clearance in place, all the due diligence to be able to trade under her to access some of the opportunities.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: She's also mentioned that in some cases, some of the bigger independent power producers are giving the last 5% of their project completion to smaller enterprises to give them opportunity.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: But they are being put under extreme pressure for 24-hour shifts and not adequate labor conditions to even perform and succeed in these opportunities.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very real the challenges.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Even if we're looking at access to land, I think women from generational and apartheid, you know, have not had access to land.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of the entrepreneurs need access to land to be able to set up projects.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just having this in their circles of influence, you know.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Then water sector and waste sector, we also look at some of the barriers there, regulatory barriers, technical barriers.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the entrepreneurs even can't access technical support.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: So they appoint American consultants and pay them in dollars to actually do their feasibility studies.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Not being able to access those capabilities locally, and it really comes at a very, very high cost.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: I do believe from a procurement perspective, I've seen barriers obviously from a payment, but there is some payment holidays that women are getting within seven days payment, you know, and some preferential procurement, which is more on the upside.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think those are some of the barriers that have been overcome in some instances.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it's also positive.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's not all gloom and doom.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's amazing.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for sharing the positive story.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think most of the times when we ask about, you know, the barriers always looking for the doom and gloom.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: But it's good to see that, you know, there has been work that's been done in addressing some of those barriers.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's something that's very important.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: So, Amelia, I have the same question for you as well, in terms of trying to understand what the experience has been like for Mozambican SMMEs.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: So, what would you say are some of the other barriers that you would identify for SMMEs in Mozambique and especially those that are women and also owned by youth?
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that uh there are many barriers.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: I will start saying some barriers uh which I found in Makala.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: The main barriers is related to the complex uh procurement procedures.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: The men of the small business, small enterprises, they don't understand the guidelines of the big uh enterprises.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Look, these enterprises are outside of Mozambique, it could be America, South Africa.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: Each enterprise has the one guidelines because it's an international uh enterprise.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: And the small business doesn't understand uh clear the procurement methods or the procurement uh guidelines.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes they doesn't when some suppliers are lauded for supply uh goods or provide service, those people don't submit their proposal because they don't understand what exactly all the guidelines are tough for them is the most uh various.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: Another one is regarding for the capacity to production.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: When somebody or some enterprises uh launch, it can be good, they need in short time for them in large quantities.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: The small business don't have money to produce in time with the enterprise asks, they don't have capacity to produce in those times, is another virus.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Another one is regarding the technology.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: The most of the small business, they don't use technology or they don't use innovation.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'll give you uh an example uh I got from a management in a hotel.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: I asked for vegetable in uh Nakala's agriculture, but they don't give them the vegetable for hotel because they don't have um capacity to produce, they don't have uh material or insects to grow quickly, and they don't have technology or you don't use technology to ask or to be enjoying in another member's another campus, something like join the ventures to give those uh vegetables to the devil is a big challenge.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: For the woman, I think that the big challenge regarding how can I say financing, because the small business are doing with people who don't have money.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: If you have an education, but normally in Mozambique, this job is doing from people who doesn't who don't have a level or education.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: If you go to the bank, me and Lizen, I mean, we are business women.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: Listen is a person who has education.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: The bank will give man lessons, not give amele because amele doesn't have education.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: How to give back the bank money.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's why is a big challenge for women in Mahaput.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: For men it's different.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's to understand something, it's to use technology, it's to use is a small business that's not enough for a special economic zone.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because we know that the special economic zone is a place, it's an area, we use higher technology.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: When you do something, you must have a good quality.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's why the company will not buy your things.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Another example from to design uniform for the employee.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: But he doesn't do because he doesn't have money to do the quantity which I have been asking.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't do because the quality is not higher for the camp.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I say that.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: The challenge is the band, uh the area, the band, and the gender of who's doing business.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: The woman business has barrels, limitation for doing business for the SZ in Nagala.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: The man has another challenge in another area, has another challenge.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, you know, I think that's different.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: True, that's very important, and thank you for highlighting those differences.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: So, lastly, you know, I think this is something that Melia that you mentioned, and Annalise also alluded to.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: So, in terms of government support and government policy, what do you think needs to be done?
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: Not only what do you think needs to be done, but in terms of, for example, I know you've looked at SMEs across the continent.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, have you seen some initiatives and programs or policies that are looking to supporting, for example, women or SMEs in the green space that you think would be really good policies that South Africa could learn from?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, not only in Africa, but also you know, across the world, because you are looking at what's also happening globally.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, what are some of the important government policies or programs that you think are important to grow the SME sector, but again, particularly for women-owned enterprises, for youth enterprises, and also for enterprises owned by people living with disabilities?
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think if I can approach this response from a policy and a programmatic perspective to split the two, we all know that uh policy is desirable, it's a long-term, you know, bookmark that's put in place.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it'll take 15 to 12 years to actually, you know, really become a reality.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I think at the moment, uh addressing gender disparities, addressing SMME inclusion and also youth inclusion and people with disabilities, we don't have lots of time left, you know, for so I do think we need to take an approach of uh looking at really good programmatic interventions such as Future Female Business School, um, which has been running for three to four years, yeah, since COVID.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: There we've had two green tech in tech programs uh where we help uh virtually develop women and you know, really provide them.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: They are in green technology development, but really give them the business acumen and also introducing them to lots of free online software and making them tech enabled.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: These are lifestyle-owned businesses.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, mothers, you know, I've been in some of the sessions since COVID where mums are there with their children, they're either breastfeeding, they are hugging a child, or they're looking after you know, a parent in COVID when they were really ill, but they're able to still be empowered and join a community of business owners and really feel confident that there's a space for them as a female entrepreneur and being a mother and having all the responsibilities that we have day to day, but still be able to run a successful business.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, um that's a really great initiative, and they've also done one with the the circular economy most recently with really great technologies and uh Indonesia, Brazil, Kenya, Nigeria.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: We did a program also in Kenya with Agri Climate Smart Agriculture.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's it's a virtual school of 10,000 of women across these countries.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: And what's quite wonderful about that initiative is they wrote five white papers for gender funding gaps that they published.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: And to look, it's shocking, it's less than 5% of women being funded across the gap is massive when when we're stressing finance, and from an investor perspective, the old boys' clubs, unfortunately, you know, who you know, who you play golf with, if you're sitting with a baby at home, you don't get into those circles, you know.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: So there's some really good initiatives, also, I think, from a climate change perspective and climate finance prioritizing investment in gender equality, which is very promising.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, so so DMRE also is running the Department of Minerals and Energy.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: They have a women in renewable energy um initiative.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I do believe that we do need to set up uh more programs to support women with funding.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: And from the policy perspective, we do have in South Africa um, you know, the gender policy framework, but not necessarily anything ring fenced for SMME specific.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: So tomorrow, again in our workshop when we are going to be discussing stakeholder engagement and recommendations and workshop these solutions, we are going to put on the table a just transition policy for SME inclusion, a dedicated policy that will ring fence specifically marginalized entrepreneurs, which is often female-owned, youth-owned, and people with disabilities, to actually fast track them.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: But this is a policy, it's still a wish list for us that a government initiative, someone will need to take it on board and drive it, and then also look at successful programmatic interventions like Indalu Inclusive, who's doing fantastic work with youth empowerment and also in climate change, um, and providing funding via NetBank in these programs.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it's mentorship plus de-risking them from the investments, successful programs running.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: There's many of them in South Africa.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, in parallel, I think we can learn from these lessons and build them into robust policies.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, thank you.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: That sounds great.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for sharing those very successful stories and programs that have been put into place.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I mean, I know you're really passionate about the sector, and it's really amazing to hear the progress that you are making.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, really excited to see how you know they grow the you said future female business school.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: Future female business school.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: It sounds very exciting.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely looking forward to checking it out and finding out more in terms of what you do in the school.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: Amelia, so over to you as well.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: In terms of the government of you know, Mozambique, what do you think they can do in terms of again policies or programs that could better support small businesses in the country to help them succeed?
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think that uh we're still having a challenge.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Something must be done.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: When I look for my research, I think that the government design the police which can link the small business and the SZ because the gap of them are so big.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: The government must be designed policies which will have the small business to be linked in our big enterprises.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: Another thing they can design the program to be implemented during this short time.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: When we look in Nagala, we we know that the government doesn't have a specific program for SZ to link SZ in a small business.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's better to design the program, a specific program for each settle, because we have a settled for service, we have settled for industrial, we have settled for business, we have settled for transport and logistics.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: We must have a program in each settle for those small businesses.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: The program must be focused in training, must be focused in procurement procedure.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: This procurement procedure can be done with SZ management who will train the small business, how to understand the guidelines or procurement guidelines, how to be staff for preparing his proposal.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: This activity must be done from the SZ management.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: The government must be designed the police who I will not say obligation, but something will show them that the management of the SZ must contract or have a person to say that if you want to be in a specific, in a special economic zone, you must contract maybe 14 or 15 percent of your procurement plan.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: You must contract a small business in a local place.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that the government must be done for to push the small business to be linked with the big enterprises.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: For me, it's the most important because when we have a big enterprise in a specific area, the small business must need to have a business in that place, must have opportunity to grow and to help the area to grow to.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: The last thing for small business, I can tell that must do something related to the trainer.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: They have skills, they have an education, even somebody help or finalize the secondary school.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: But who doesn't have skills will not be able to assess the opportunity from the big enterprises.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I say that the most important is a training, capacity and skills and percentage to push the small business to have an assess opportunity for big industry.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, those sounds like very, very interesting recommendations.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for that, Amelia.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, thank you to my guest today.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Elise.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Amelia, for the very interesting conversation on SMMEs and also understanding some of the opportunities and challenges that they face in South Africa in Mozambique.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: But I think also some of the challenges and opportunities they face are, you know, some that African countries, for example, struggle with and also rural communities.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it was really important for you to highlight some of that.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you very much.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: So there is no doubt that the small business sector is important for economic development and growth.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: And we really need supportive policies as well as targeted programs to support the sector, especially so for those who are owned by women, owned by youth, and owned by people living with disabilities.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a wrap.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: And to our listeners, please remember sustainable growth is not just a goal, but a path to a more resilient and prosperous future.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: Don't forget to subscribe, leave a comment, and connect with us on social media.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: Remember to follow our body of work on the TIPS website, which is www.tips.org.za.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: You can interact with us podcasts on Apple, Deezer, Spotify, as well as YouTube.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: Join us next time as we continue our exploration of policies that shape economies.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: Until then, I'm your host, Mr.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: Hall, and Thompson.