Latest / The Good Builder Podcast / The Daily Dose #325 | You Can Teach Anyone to Build a House with Rod Gibbs from Bold Living

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The Daily Dose #325 | You Can Teach Anyone to Build a House with Rod Gibbs from Bold Living · The Good Builder Podcast

• Az (00:56) Well, good morning and welcome to the Good Builder podcast. This is a podcast that I have been waiting to do for a few months actually. And I met this gentleman at a Goop Guys event at Australia Zoo. And I actually didn't believe, I remember walking away from the night and going, I just got talked to by this gentleman. And I was like, that is super cool. My guest today is Rod Gibbs. He's only done about three jobs in the construction industry, but he's done it all across those jobs and he has a wealth of experience. For 10 years, he had his own building company in partnership with another gentleman Glover Building Group. He then went on to take on plantation. And as you can see, he was working there from 2014. And that brand has only gone from strength to strength. He's just left plantation and we're about to drop an exclusive about what is going on now and where is that. But first of all, I'd really like you to get to know this gentleman, because the chat before the podcast was pretty infatuating, mate, to be honest with you like there's some really cool stuff that he said that we actually had to stop the conversation and go, wait a minute, we need to get this on the pod and we need to start recording because there's some really cool lessons. So I am super pumped to bring to the good builder couch today, Rod Gibbs from I'm going to say it. Bold living. Yeah. So, ⁓ Rod, mate, it is so cool to have you here, man. ⁓ no, no problem at all. Like I said, I think, for those who don't know, I've been chasing Rod for a few months, but I, ⁓ you know, and then finally got him on here and I'm so pumped. they have him on here but mate let's learn a little bit about yourself where did you get into the industry what started you here and maybe even the earlier stuff about your life and what you did prior to construction because that was really interesting and I think it for me after talking to you it kind of defines who you are which is a high-performing leader that supports his people. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, my mid forties, I've lived on the coast pretty much my whole life. from, from Sydney originally. and moved up here quite young. so I've lived on the sunny coast, for quite some time, seen a lot of change over the years as well. So yeah, I sort of left school and then, did my time tiling and then sort of got that under the belt. In the background, I was playing quite a high level of cricket. So right into my sport, into my fitness and whatnot, I decided to... you know, give tiling away at that point and then take on carpentry. I felt that just a little bit easier on the body at that moment. So, during that transition period, I was, you know, traveling to the UK, playing some semi-professional cricket over there, which was a great experience. just a good life experience for someone quite young, you know, to grow up only child. So, not having any siblings. So I had to grow up quite quick traveling on my own and whatnot. you know, fast forward, come back, work with Glover for 10 to 12 years, myself and Jamie, which, you know, gave me a great insight doing everything through, you know, doing everything hands on, you know, building the house to letter boxes, to concreting, to, to the, to the driveway. you were a partner in that business. Yeah. So you were running everything around even the operations. Yeah, I did. No, I did. So I did my apprenticeship through, through Glover. Yep. And then. As it evolved and we got busier, I sort of took the onsite and was running all the construction side of things onsite. And Jamie and his wife Sharon at the time were sort of doing stuff internally, but doing a wide range of renovations through to big projects like one or two homes a year, but gave me a really broad range of what it's like and doing everything from start to finish. And in the background, still playing my cricket. still doing, I enjoy a lot of running. love, love my running, my marathons. And if you have done about 11 half marathons, and that just comes through, keeping fit for cricket. I had an old coach telling me, you know, you know, you're here. If you want to get to the next level, you need to get fitter. And I was, I felt probably, was probably quite lazy at the time, but I was still quite young. but running really changed. It changed me as a person. I changed my mindset. it still is good for me to this day. It clears my head. It's great for my mental health. It's given me strength. Through the hard times, you just refer back to what it's like and it gets me in some really good routines as well. So that kind of sets the base, suppose, around team, high performing teams and setting some expectations and commitment to yourself. And then you can kind of bring that into business as well. Yeah. Wow. Well, then what did you do after that? Cause you went on and then went into plantation and you were running that for a few years post that. there was a few things that you said actually Rod, like I know we've kind of, this is our first real conversation kind of getting to know each other. We've had emails and things like that. And we had a quick chat before the pod, but mate, I look at you and I'm like, there's discipline in you. you say you were lazy, but you were, you know, a partner in Glover. semi-professional cricket, the running came on because of a coach giving you advice and saying you need to do that. But it seems like you're always the kind of guy that goes, you know, pulls up the socks and go, I'll do what I have to do to get the job done, which is really like, just, I know I sound like a psychologist, but I, I love talking to people like you that have, as I said to you, performed at that high level in sport. And as we said, there's like, there's this. likeness of businesses and sport and you seem to have brung that sort of sporting mindset into business. Yeah you can definitely and a lot of the good leaders that I've lent on over the years too you know have had some sort of success in sport. They don't have to be the captain, but they've been in a premiership winning team or a team that's done well. I left, yeah, so when myself and Jamie Glover, we sort of walked aside and then he went his way and I went mine. I was in the stage in my life where starting young family, I was looking for stability. And obviously Plantation Henley been around for a long time and got a great name for itself. And I thought, why not try, try, you know, that sort of things and see how that plays out. So, you know, so I joined, I joined the plantation team and continued, you know, continued on with my cricket for some time, but referring back to the sporting, I think for me, it really changed my mindset around you start doing the things. and then you start seeing the results. So, you got to put in the hard work to get what you need to get out of it. But until you actually do the hard work and then you start to see the results, then it just becomes good habits for me. So I started my running. It just started off running. you know, short and then all of a sudden I was a batsman for instance. So, you know, I started having some really good success and having some big seasons with getting a lot of runs and it's cause I was physically fit. I always had the ability there. and then the marathon sort of things got my mental strength, you know, to, be able to concentrate for long periods of time. So that it really helped me in my journey through my cricketing. and then with team success, you know, I've had a fair bit of success over the years, but I've played in a lot of different teams. Yeah. And funny enough, the hardest team that I had to lead or captain was probably the team that had the most ability. That's because everyone wanted to be, everyone wanted to be the captain. Everyone wanted to open the bowling, open the bowling, do the wicket keeping. Whereas the teams that generally jowled more, where, you know, you might have a few eight out of tens, a few sixes and a few fives. and it's all about having some consistency and having a good balanced team to create that success. And you you find the five out of tens. are more important or if not more important than the eight or nine out of 10s because they're the ones that are good for your culture. know, they might run the warmups, they might, you know, keep the team motivated when the team gets low. You know, although the ones with more ability might get the results. And I've taken the same philosophy into the business or into, you know, into the work environment. Yeah. And, know, when you've got a successful team or high achieving team, you've got to have a balance. Yeah, can't have a graded. You've got to have a bit of everything because everyone's going to bring something different to the table. That is so cool. I love the way you talk about that road because I'm not getting emotional, maybe slightly, but like, I don't know why, but like, I look back on my career, you said like reflect on things. And I told you, well, actually I had a previous meeting before this, but I was talking to a gentleman about my good bosses and leaders that I had, and I was never the highest performing in sport or the highest performing in business. But the bosses that knew my place and knew what I did well, man, I flourished. Like I remember I worked for Mervac and sort of bring it to business, but like they got me up there at Punderburg when the floods hit just to bring the community back together. Like I wasn't there with KPIs. It was like, you're the hype boy. Go hype them up. Like get everyone ready to duck that we're going to do this. I'm going to bring this shopping center back online, rebuild the, You know, the shopping center and the, and the region to a degree after the floods and you got to motivate them to get back in and, know, we're going to take it to another level when we reopen. And I find that so important. And you said something before the pod, which you just touched on about, you know, a particular bloke, you said in the team that wasn't the best, but he was the motivator. He was the glue. And that was the glue. And you understand that not many people do. don't think. Yeah. It's so cool. Right. love the way you think about it. And I think if you, if you bring it back into business and you're looking at numbers or refer to a cricket team and we're looking at who's got the most runs, most wickets. He never got the most runs of the week, most wickets. But unless you're a part of that team or that squad, you understand what he brought to the team. So I think everyone needs the glue, you know, but then everyone needs, so everyone's going to bring something different to the team. you identify that in teams. That's what you're good at. That's what, that's what you, that's where you want to get to. You have a high performing team. Yeah. Definitely. Very cool. Yeah. And that's what we did. Pretty much. That's what we do. Yeah. Well, that's what we're trying to do. Yeah. I love it. Mate, we talked about you owning or being a partner in Glover. Yeah. Having your name on the contract and the door, basically. What did that teach you about running a business? What do you still kind of lean on to this day of ownership, I guess, because talking to your man, like with the plantation stuff you've done and what you're about to do, seems you do take a lot of responsibility and accountability on no matter if it's yours or not. I don't know. Yeah, I think probably the one thing that sticks in my mind, whether you're building one house or 600 houses is, you know, don't accept anything you wouldn't accept yourself. And I think that's that's something that, you know, when I was working, with Jamie, with Glover, you know, we're doing, you know, only a couple of homes a year. Everyone's building to a standard, no matter what, you're building or who you're building for. But you know, you're in control of that at the back end and how you do your quality control. So, and it's no different now when you're working for a bigger builder or a high volume builder, you just got to have the right processes in place and the right quality checks in place along the way to make sure that you're delivering on what you promised. when you're the customer the keys and probably more importantly what I've learned. in the last couple of years, taking on the warranty side of things with Plantation 2 is not passing the baton to the next department, setting them up for success as well. Because you can hand the keys over and finishing the house is one thing. But from a business perspective, your job's not finished there yet. That back end is really important. And I'll look at that like food or like a restaurant. That's the last taste that they have until they go on and live their life, you know. you know, you go to restaurant, you might go there for 10 years and you have one bad meal you mightn't go back. So it's quite hard to, and it's, it's an ever changing challenge to try and, you know, upkeep those customer expectations to make sure that the last touch point that they have on that journey is a good one. And, you know, you get, you get repeat business that way as well. It's a free way of advertising. So yeah, can tell you're a good better. It's going to be so cool. Like I am I shouldn't say this, but I'm so pumped that you're going to Bold, mate. Like, I really respect the Bold crew. respect the plantation crew as well, but to have you there and there, I think it's going to do the world of wonders for that business. it's exciting. Yeah. You know, I think that's wonderful, Well, then moving into plantation and working at that scale, how many homes were you sort of in charge of? And what did you sort of learn working with that volume of building? Because you guys are absolute monsters. look, it's a great business and they've been strong for a lot of years and they market really well and the numbers that they're turning out or have turned out over the years has been really impressive. I think the biggest year we had while I was there, we did about 9.07 in a calendar year. We'd probably average somewhere between that six to 700 pretty regularly. But I think the biggest... biggest change that I saw going from, you know, a small builder to a volume builder was probably the pace. It's fast paced. You know, you've born 50, 60 slaps a month, you might be handing 50 or 60 homes over a month. It sounds like a lot, but when you've got the right processes in place, that's just the norm. But just getting your mindset to adjust to that. You know, I come on board, you know, I picked it up quite quickly, you know, because they've got some really good procedures and processes in place. And then, you know, you find yourself running between 14 and 16 jobs straight away. And you sort of try and get your head around thinking, well, I built two a year. Now, how do I build 16 homes a year? but it gets done, know, it's done. It's just the way it is. And that's just the norm because the right things are in place. So. Having the right procedures and the right programs and having the right tools to be able to do that, you know, allows you to be able to carry that many jobs and do the things. But in terms of like, what was the biggest change? How fast paced it was. And how to manage your time. You've to be really critical on how you manage your time and where to spend time on each job. That would be so important. Yeah, it is. Imagine dropping... You know, two, three slabs a day and having two, three handovers a day. Yep. That's mental. Yeah. Like it's enough to send you absolutely mental. Yeah. What about process? Are you a very process driven guy, I am. I'm a big, big on process. think I've been kind of see that I'm I am. I am. And I'm not. you know, professionally I am. Yeah. And I probably I'm not so much at home. Okay. I say I'm high on my processes personally. Like I said, high expectations for myself. I can see that. wouldn't expect that for my next team member or, know, that's just the way I am. And I feel that's why I've sort of got to where I am. Absolutely. I mean, know, being quite hard on myself, whether it's, you know, professionally or personally. Yep. that's cool. to have the right, the right checks in place and processes in place, that's critical. when you're running any business, think, and at the right times. I think going into the role and working through as a supervisor through to a construction manager and then obviously onto the building manager. I never actually envisioned myself being running the construction team or being the building manager. We spoke a little bit earlier around. you know, going into a leadership role must've been hard. Yeah. absolutely. what, what, would I learn or what, would I do again? it actually wasn't hard for me taking on a leadership role because it kind of feel like what we kind of spoke about beforehand. I've always set a high expectation on myself to be that person to not be the captain or be the leader, but, if you're not first, you're last. Yeah. So, you know, I want to do the job. or the role to the best of my ability. And if an opportunity comes, you're there ready for the picking. You're making runs every week. Yeah. And someone drops out. Yeah. It's an easy choice. Yeah. But I wasn't ambitious. Like I wasn't wasn't about the role for me. It was just about setting an expectation for me and doing every job I can do the best of my ability. And I kind of just naturally progressed through and so you should have a time where it was like the obvious choice, I suppose from looking outside in. I love it. that people lose that every now and again, Rod. I think people forget like they do. Don't vie for a role. Do your job now and the results kind of come. Yeah. If you know what I mean, that seems to how you. Natural progression is really important because you got to be ready. You've got to be ready to take on the role. The best supervisor, mine be the best construction manager. Yeah, well, the best best ops manager might be the best general manager. Each time you work your way up in a business, you know, your role changes. Just because you're good at one thing doesn't mean you're going to be good at the other. I know one thing managing people is a totally different ballgame to to whether it's building a house or, you know, drawing a set of drawings or you know, it's totally different. You know, you can take the same philosophy and the same values that got you there. But it's it is a different ballgame. Yeah. What would I do differently? I think a little bit of complacency sometimes for me. When I, if I look back, I got appointed the building manager just before COVID. So I jumped in the role, shoot at the fan. You know, there was a lot of people made redundant. But you know, the business or the plantation business flourished in that, through that period. And it was pretty steady. And it was really steady. mate. It was one of the steadiest builders. Well, I was watching it because I had Avondale Holmes at the time and I was just getting into the building game and I'm watching it because I came from sort of volume with DJs and I'm watching who was steady and I knew Cain Finna Coral and I used to call him up and go ahead and they stayed steady as well because they didn't overstretch themselves. Yeah. And I was watching you and Coral and that and I was like, how are you doing that? Yeah. So you jumped into that role. I jumped in just before COVID. Yeah. shit. But what I was left with was a really high performing team. We didn't make highly any redundancies at that moment in the construction team. A lot of it was more the front end of the business. But back then, when I look back then, We had 16 supervisors and three construction managers. So I was overseeing 19, 19 people. then Aaron, had all like, they're all a-graders. You know what I mean? So everything was just running along really well and really smooth. And you know, you're just tweaking things because everyone's you got experience, you got tenure within the group. we didn't have to recruit, the construction managers are stable. Like it was a really happy harmonious place with a lot of experience and everyone was doing it, doing their thing. But as. as time evolved and then HomeBuilder come in. And I talk about complacency, whereas I look at that business now and there's 36 supervisors, eight construction managers, three regional building managers. So you look at Nellie, team of 50. So as that's grown over time, the capabilities, you know, obviously diluted down. You know, you've got a greener team, whether they're experienced coming on board or not. there's a lot of learning. And if you do get complacent, you can get left behind. And that's where I think a lot of, a lot of builders struggle. The moment you sit on your hands in this game and you wait for it to blow up in your face, then you're playing catch up. So I think, you know, putting some continuing to evolve and improve when we were in that sweet spot would have put us in even better stead coming through the construction phase when we were struggling, you know, for trades and people. It's kind of hard though, when you don't know what's coming ahead, mate. That was a world first. And you don't know what you don't know, right? So that was wild. That was a wild period. I can't believe I actually lived through it. yeah, had timber shortages, then steel, then trade, then labor. That's what got me out of the industry out of Avondale. We ended up just, I don't want to talk about that, but we just ended up, I just ended up going, this is too hard, really. Yep. Yep. And then, know, we've got the Olympics coming up now too. So, a lot of people have already learned what, how they got through that COVID period and what they're doing better. So I think, you know, being a bit more open-minded now, what do know now that I didn't know back then? and how can we do things differently? Nothing's off the table. Yeah. Let's look at it. What's the benefit? You know, there's a lot of outsourcing going on now, which is, you know, being beneficial for some builders and some suppliers. Scheduling's becoming a big part of what builders are doing. You know, working with scheduling and suppliers, you know, that one point of contact that was starting to work well at Plantation. know there's a few other builders going into that space now. You know, going off, know, capacities and, know, there's a lot of different things that a lot of builders are starting to do now, that they weren't doing pre COVID. but you don't know what you don't know. unfortunately it's sometimes you've got to make the mistake. I think the biggest thing is you've got to learn from it and what are we going to do differently to stop it happening again? As soon as you start to react and you're the fire out, it's not a good way to run a team. Everyone's in that constant flood or fight mode. And I'm, I'm, I'm so big on team and everyone's doing their work when they're the happiest. If you haven't got a happy team, then they're not going to perform. Yeah, wow. So I think, you know, continuing to be innovative, continue to be efficient and support the team and giving them the tools to able to do their job easier. And then that just flows on whether it's sales, drafting, coming through the office, improves the customer journey, you build a better product and then that's how you, you know, you create a good business essentially. yeah. I'm learning that you're, you don't sit on your hands. You're always looking to improve things, even if it's a minute improvement. And I think that's really important. Constantly look at things and show how we can improve them or look for ways we can improve it in the industry. Because we've run around the industry and a lot of people that, you know, have, you know, obviously haven't worked for businesses that you've been involved in and some other good builders too, that we know they're going in the industry to cook. don't know what to do, but I don't think some of them are really looking at. What can you do? What's in your control that you can change to produce a better outcome for your business? I is how you roll. And I that's super cool, mate. I think that's so cool. Yeah. I think, I think there's a big thing in what you can control and what you can't control. Cause there's so many factors outside your bubble or your circle that you can't control. you worry about them? I do. Well, I did in my role. You have to? Cause you got to, cause if, you know, that's where that complacency can, can sometimes kick in. It's outside the bubble and you need to have a finger on the pulse there. But with your team itself, you just got to get them focusing on what you can control because if you bring everything in, including the outside noise, you're going to have a long laundry list and you're never going to actually get anything achieved. You're going have hundred things, 20 % done. So let's look at 10 things and let's start at the top and work our way through and worry about it when we need to worry about it. You need to just have your finger on the pulse on the outside thing. in case they become solvent, you know, if it's going to affect you down the track. So, but there's lots of contributing factors out there. The people is probably the biggest one at the moment, whether it's trades or, or employees, know, good ones are hard to get and Southeast Queensland's short on both. Yeah. Huge. And you just need to make sure that you're you're training your people right and you're wrapping your arms around the ones that you really appreciate. And I think stability is the key for any business to get momentum right now because turnover is always hard. You know you bleed money in turnover. You're retraining and you're getting to know someone again and that culture doesn't really get a lot of momentum as well. So think tenure and stability is key right now. Mate, this has been one of the coolest. This is the coolest episode. Well, I reckon this one of the coolest episodes I've ever done. I can't believe this in there. No, I'm not lying, man. The stuff you were saying, I'm like, man, I want to work for you. could work for you. Like there's so much in it to be a good leader and how to run a business, mate. We've never had this much information on it and practical stuff. So thanks for, like, it's super cool, man. Like, I just wanted to say that. The other thing I want to say, or wanted to ask you is you've been through it, man. Like you've hired people, you talk about A players, you talk about the team in a way that we've never talked about it on the good bill. I wasn't getting too emotional, but when you started talking about that, I was always a little rump that would be hyping people up and you knew you were important part, but maybe other people didn't see it. What separates a good person in your team? What do you look for in your team? Not versus a bad person, but what are the qualities that you look for in a good person then? What should builders look for? you know, when they're hiring, because I think hiring is, it's really hard to do, isn't it Rod? Hiring is hard to do. You know, and obviously with the construction industry, it's volatile at the moment. Yeah. And, you know, working for big builders, you know, fortunately and unfortunately, like I'll look at, you know, the plantation business and we were all the, all the construction managers were promoted within. you know, we managed to do that over a point of time. But then as you're getting promotions, you still got to backfill those roles. So, you know, tenure is really important. But I think face to face is critical. I'm a really big believer on You know what you want to get out of a person. So I'm looking for, it's all the one percenters for me. You can teach anyone how to build a house. Experience is really important. But some of the best supervisors haven't been trade background. Preferably, they've got a head start if they're a trade background. for And supervisors are sort of catchy, but they are one of the most important. We found out that from customer perspective, they are probably the most important link in the chain. Yeah. So sorry. Yeah. So what were you doing? there's a of things to that. Like they're only as good as what the drawings are, everything that comes before them, but through the customer's eyes, they're the ones that bring it to life. Yep. So it's all eyes on them. Thank you. You've got a very important job. But the technical side of things, that's the stuff that you can teach, but you can't teach someone to give a shit. You can't teach the attitude, you know, the team player. you know, not being selfish, like that stuff can be really hard to teach. But I think you know what you're looking for when you're hiring someone. So you can kind of have some really pointed questions around that. And I think having a face to face conversation, generally you can get a good understanding of what they're like, you know, are they a family person? You know, are they in it for themselves? Do they just talk about themselves the whole time? Or is it about, you know, what they can bring to the table and why they want to join? Are their values aligned with what we're aligned with? So I think the face to face is really important with that. And sometimes I've found there's a good news story where we hired someone and he got rejected twice. coming in for an interview and he kept ringing up saying, want an opportunity, I want an opportunity. And I said to one of the construction managers, I reckon we need, I want you to catch up with this guy. So we met him downstairs and we met him. wasn't a formal interview. It was more relaxed environment. and we gave him a shot and he's just been promoted to construction manager. So, you saw that in, well, he just, wanted it and that's really important. You know, like he was hungry. I think being really open-minded, like I said before, is important as well. Be open to change. You know, everyone's going to have a different view on things. not everyone has to do it the same way, but you've got to collaborate. You know, when I first started coming into the project game, I sort of grabbed a little bit out. does it a little bit. Our Johnny does it a little bit. And you, come up with your own way, but you can't just come in thinking, you know, the only way. And it doesn't change no matter what role you're in. and that's, kind of take that down to a team now. Like what's the best way to do it? I would do it this way. How does everyone else think? And you might come up with a totally different way and just take 10 or 15, 20 % from everybody else and, and collaborate and come up with a way when you walk out of the room. But that's, that's how. you need to be forward thinking in terms of whether you're a supervisor, construction manager or, or any, any role, because you don't have all the answers. So I think, you know, bringing some supervisors in that have worked for another builder, can be hard to to iron out old habits. Yeah. and, and greener supervisors can be easier to teach, but I think no matter whether they got experience or not, if they've got a great attitude and they're putting in 110 % and they're going to do the one percenters. Yeah. We spoke about the five out of tens. They're the ones that you'll send an email out and they'll say, I'll do it. I'll run around and pick up that delivery. I'll do that. I'll do that. And they're building the best house and doing all the other things. So that's why you still need to have that mix in a team to get it balanced and humming, I think. This is cool. It's really cool. The information that you are giving out to the community is so cool, And never so practical. I'll tell you the truth, I was pretty intimidated to interview you because I don't have the technical knowledge you have, I don't have the experience you have, and you're revered in the industry. And when you, like I said, when you came up to me at Goop Guys, thought, Rod, just talk to me. Everyone that knows you, but mate, like... The way you explain it and you see in the way people talk about you, even as I said, like, you know, you're moving into bold now and the way that that team is so excited to have you there. definitely know why. but talking about bold, what do you, what are you doing there, mate? What can we break it? now the exclusive on position you'll be filling and what it would be, I know you, at this moment in time, you haven't started the role because we'll be releasing this and pre-recording it and probably releasing it the week that you will be in the role. But what will you be doing there, Rod? Yeah, so I've been appointed for the general manager of construction, which is really exciting. So, yeah, it's look, it's, it's really good. So I've took some time out, obviously, and I've had a bit of time off. Good, you know. It's taken its toll, obviously, where I was working previously at Plantation. I was there for a long time, a lot of trouble, a lot of work. So I'm a little bit closer to home. I felt like the change is right, but I sort of met. with Brett initially and there's some other stuff over there that I know as well with Alex and whatnot, which obviously it's good to have some relationships, but I'll be heading up the construction team and overseeing the construction, but just as importantly working with the other managers around, like I said, how a job comes to site, the condition that's in, you know. hearing and seeing the challenges that the supervisors face, whether it's with any business. know how who has the button or who passes the button beforehand, how that affects the team. So it's about pulling it back from the start, you know, getting to know the business and I'm really big on relationships as well. Like I think, you know, I'm a people person. Yeah, I'm communicator. I'm like, hey, very good community. Okay, I'll go say that. Let's go nut it out for coffee. Like we don't have to do it in in the office, let's talk through it, not on the emails. You we spoke a little bit before about, you know, turnover and, know, how do you, how do you... approach, you know, if someone's might be struggling or, or, or not. And, you know, my view is, you know, if you've got a good relationship with him and you're checking in regularly, you know, it's not, it's not an outside question to say, how you doing? you can generally read, can read the body language as well. So I know the relationships that are created over a long period of time where I was previously. for me now it's, know, getting in and creating that new chapter. It's all about team and relationships. Yeah. Super excited. they're the ones doing the things and the builders, builders, building the houses and the supervisors and the construction managers and whatnot. So it's about how can we, you know, move the cards around or hack, how can I help support the team? Cause I know they're already doing a lot of good things and, and they're working on, on, lots of changes, is, which is really positive. Yeah. So how can I come in and, and, and put my spin on that too, and add value to that, you know, to help one support the team, give them the tools they need to be able to do their job easier, which creates a better customer experience and it's better business. know, the of the day. Yeah. is so cool, right? That is freaking, mate, you know, what I get from you is, you know, what was it? 15 years at plantation? 13. 13 years. You're a very loyal bloke. I'm loyal. You know? Yeah. And, you know, to your point of imagine doing, like you said, you know, average of seven, eight hundred, nine hundred times a year. over that course of 15 years, of course you deserve a break. But yeah, I feel that loyalty is something that's within you and it would have been probably a struggle to leave plantation, but you knew the time was right. And then you're moving into another place where you're, yeah, want to bring that loyalty back from yourself and also from the team within it, which I think is super important as well for a builder, because I know this sounds a bit probably wrong, but I have a little joke with myself, with other builders, not, not bold, not plantation, but a lot of other builders. and I go into display homes and I say I'll see you at the next builder. And like two years later, you'll see him somewhere else, you remained for 15 years. know, that's pretty cool. Like that sort of stuff is relationships keep you there as well. Like you're loyal to the business, but what gets you there is working with good people. Right. So that's what you drive. Yeah. You know, you can, you can go build houses anywhere, but you know, you can't do it with, you know, with your Johnny's and with your Nathan's or with your, whoever that is. you know, when that's when you get the gold nuggets, I think when you've got a really good team and you're collaborating together. and you're sharing personal goals. I'm quite a calm leader. I'm not a yeller and a screamer. I show a bit of empathy when it's required and that can be quite challenging for a lot of people as well. But you can't expect people to come and put their hand up and hey, I'm struggling, whether it's work or whether it's personal. If you're not gonna... don't have get up in front of the group, unless you're going to show some empathy yourself. So I've quit being quite vocal about, you know, when I'm going through some hard times and how that's made me feel or how that's affected me or so just so the team know, because everyone's got a job to do, no matter what title you got. So I'm allowed to have a bad day just as much as you're allowed to have a bad day. all human. So The leaders aren't invincible and bulletproof. So I think that's really important. That's probably been a hard thing for me to do and a hard thing for a lot of people that can't do, especially... Yeah, or blokes. Yeah, it's definitely gotten a lot more common in the industry now. And it's a lot more out there. And that's where, you know, the running and you got to have an out and you whether you're getting it off your chest, whether you're talking with you, whether you're exercising, or whether you're doing some form of activity to try and help you de stress. But that's where the, you know, having relationships within the business, I've got some some really close friends where I used to work that I'll continue to keep in contact and catch up outside of work. Because you get lifelong friends out of that. And that's what the golden nugget is and that's what makes it hard to leave. And that's what you want. So I know what looks like. I know they're doing good things over a bowl. So it's how can I now bring what I can to the table to help continue to create that on? Man. I want every builder in Australia to listen to this. And I want them to take note and just look to operate their businesses a bit more like you. think we look at a lot of things like apprenticeships, for example. Now I'm going off on not really a tangent, it relates to what you say, and Rod, but like we went through and I had this thing in my head that apprentices aren't paid enough went through, we talked to a lot of apprentices, we had them on the pod, they're like, no, it's a privilege, we get paid to learn pretty good. And we did a bit of a survey to a bunch of apprentices, few hundred of them, we're like, why you want to leave that? You know what it is, what they're saying? They're saying it's the culture and the communication. Like in the what they deem is how we run our industry, like, which I've had a great Maybe I've bumped into the right builders, but I've had a great time in this industry and maybe I was a bit older or whatever. But you can see that, you know, valuing someone showing that support, all those things that you talk about for all through this podcast. And this is why I think it's one of the most valuable podcasts for builders out there. That's what's going to change our industry, man. I really, really reckon it is. Well, you can't do without the people. Yeah. And it just goes, you know, even with the supervisors, you can't, it's your trades that bring it up to life. And I used to say to a customer when I was a supervisor, the kudos should go to the trades. But if you don't treat them with respect. and have that relationship with them and make them feel valued, they're not gonna come and finish the job off on a Saturday or they're not gonna do the best job to their ability. think now that... You know, a lot of, of, a lot of builders, but a lot of people have lost that, have lost that touch now. And it's just, it's more transactional. I'm paying you to do a job, get in and get it done and get out. the 1 % is not there. There's no extra. They're just doing the bare minimum. And that's where the quality drops and the care factor drops a little bit. Jobs run slower. They're not getting to your job because they're just getting to someone else's. So, I think, you know, treat how you treat people and make them feel valued and, and creating those relationships, whether it's with the management. team, whether it's with construction team, whether it's with your drafting team or supervisor team or trades, the same philosophy goes throughout any any team really, or your cricket team. You know, if you're just gonna say get out there and get some runs. Yeah. But if you're gonna say, Hey, I'll, I'll help you work on something after training to help you get it right. you know what I mean? Like, yeah, they're just they're one percent. It's but you need people on your team that are going to do the one percent. That's that's the key. Wow. Yeah. drive a good construction team, especially in this environment. At that volume. You need it. mate. Because you can't be everywhere, right? So. And it brings me back to your loyalty thing. I think you're loyal. And I don't think you, I don't know how to say it right. Maybe I shouldn't make assumptions or anything, but like you breed loyalty. in a way of in your teams in a way of being who you are. I think that's super cool. And to your point, I think loyalty in our industry is a bit lacking. Yeah, definitely. And that more leaders like you and this is why I'm passionate about this episode because I'm listening to you man, like I'm like man, everyone needs to listen to this episode. You know, I think it's got a lot of value in here about how to hold yourself in life, in business, in a building company, to get the best out of people and yourself. I am super cool, man. I love the way you are. I love the way you think. think the key is there though. And this is really hard to teach. This is what I mean. can't explain it. by, by leading by example, right? You don't do it because you want people to follow you. got, it's really, when you that, it's really nice to hear that, but I'm not doing it to my. people follow me. I I do. get satisfaction out of seeing people succeed. That's what that's what my bucket and makes gets me up every day. So by doing that, I'm actually getting someone to buy in and wanting to work with you. Exactly. You need that's where you need the right people on the bus to be able to get that result. Yeah, but yeah, and maybe I'm trying to go, how do people become more like you? Or is it just in you? This is what I'm trying to follow. You know what mean? I know it's a weird question, But like, you how you said you lead by example, the stuff you do, I've talked to you for a good hour and hour before here and we know each other and I know of you and I know people who know you, I know suppliers who know you and they say the same thing about you. But how does that, like... I think it's not, it's not, it is something that can be taught. You know, some people are natural leaders. Yeah. Some people find it quite natural to get up and talk in front of people. Yeah. some people aren't, think, but you still have to have some certain qualities to be a leader. Yeah. You know, like I look at, some people over the years or some, know, and they've wanted, I want to get there. Yeah. and they do all the mentoring and all the, do all the courses and they do change their behaviors and changing ways, but then they might get a little bit stressed or under the pump. And then they go back to default because your personality, you are who you are. You've to accept that. And you've got to know who you are. And you've got to know what you're good at and know what you're not so good at or what makes you. So I do think that, know, I've seen people change for the better. But I think it's, it's harder to change when you're not naturally that person. So I think it comes a bit more natural for me because I'm a people person and I like being around people. I love seeing a team succeed. And I like seeing them succeed without, you know, it's not about me. It's about seeing them do well. Whereas some people just have to work on that and it takes them a bit longer to get there. so for the people that it doesn't come naturally to, they're the ones that need to work harder to get there. It's cricket team. Yeah, I was the one that had to train four days a week in my cricket. Whereas I had another guy to turn up trying once a week and just do it like that every week. But I was down there hitting balls every week to get to that level. Well, I had put the hard work in, you know, and it's the same with work. Some people just naturally comes or at school or some people don't study and they're naturally smarter than others. So you got to really work on what you need to be better at. But unless you're prepared to put the hard work in, unless I started running, changed my mindset, all that stuff. And then it it flows on, not just work, but life in general. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is so inspiring, man. It's super cool. I love it. Other thing, which you're another high performer at, is you are the HIA on the technical committee. You've been on the technical committee for six years for the HIA. You see a lot of changes coming in and all that sort of thing. What do you do there and what are you seeing sort of that the industry is going to be up against in the next few years from that technical aspect? This is where I was intimidated because I'm not very technical. No, I haven't sat on the board for a few weeks now, obviously, and I'll get back onto the board. board. When I was stuck, get back up and running. yeah, it's being on the boards gives you a great insight to what's coming. So all the legislation like NCC 22, all the huge changes came. So being on that committee allowed me to get an insight to what was coming and then deliver that back to the business. And I think it got lost a little bit. You know, we talk about the builders that do well and not so well, the ones that were proactive and started implementing and putting things in place. for seven star and the challenges that came with accessibility and whatnot. So the information's there from the committee and the HIO do a great job in feeding that out to the builders along with master builders. I think a lot of builders sit and wait, is it going to actually happen? but I think by the time it gets to that point, it's going to So look at Victoria. That's right. Yeah. Like the recent changes in big haven't really eventuated in Queensland with the condensation and things like that. So. terms of what's coming, I don't know there's a lot of huge changes coming, but I know going back to the huge changes that we went through back in 22, there was builder scrambling, like literally pulling bathrooms apart for accessibility. we did it really well, or Plantation did it really well at that time. We stopped their displays and actually changed their designs. We wanted to display what... was the code, what the code was rather than, you know, continue on to build and just get the displays open. So I think, you know, being proactive with the changes definitely helps whether you're a small builder or a big builder. I think it's the same, it has the same impact because whether you're pulling one bar from a part or 50, that financial impact's got the same amount of the small guys, it does the big guys. So it gives you a good insight to what's coming. It also gives you a good insight to you know, they're suggesting some changes and we don't think that, you know, it's... it's going to be beneficial for industry or it's going to have some negative impact. then, you know, we, the builders can give some feedback on the committee. There's some suppliers on the committee as well from a supply and install. There's some builders, there's a good mix of, you know, there's certifiers on the committee as well. John Reeves, yeah, running the chair now. you know, we work really closely with PCG at that moment time to work out what we need to do. And, you know, you take that feedback back and, know, it'll go back and forth before it's actually implemented. So you've got an opportunity to try and have it overturned I suppose to give it from a builders perspective Sort of like what you're doing now with feedback from the good builder, you you know different views on life and building and all things So it's just good opener what's coming because when you got some big changes coming you want to get ahead of it and When you've got a large pipeline of work being a bigger builder You know, you've got to get ahead of it 12 months before it's actually going to come come to life and come to site and you've got to be ready So the builders that did it did it better already and the ones that sat on their hands and thought It won't happen. It'll get pushed another 12 months. They got caught out. Yeah, and it affected them in time Yeah I'm learning more about you man, very proactive. I think you're pretty curious. You'll look at things and you'll dig deep and you'll find out what's best. And the other thing I love about your mode is, you know, taking your time out to provide feedback for the industry. Yeah. You know, to government and agencies about how we do things and what is practically going to work out there in the real world compared to people, it's going to sound really bad, some people who have never stepped on site. Yeah, and that's, you know, even, you know, that's just even bringing feedback from site from on site, you know, because it's like, it's like when someone draws something and says, this looks really cool. Yeah. You're like, we can't build that. Yeah. It looks good on paper, but you can't physically build it. Yeah. And that's that happens a lot. Yeah. It works on paper. It doesn't work on site or it doesn't work in the real world. So, you know, changes, it works up here or it works on the screen, but is that something that's actually going to be practical in that? Can you build it? You know what I mean? It's the same philosophy when you run in, running your business between all your departments. Yeah. You know, yeah. Is a customer going to like it? Yes. Can you draw it? Yes. Can you build it? and you got to tick the boxes. And then when you get to that point, then go say, let's offer it to a client. Yeah. You know, and a lot of that's happened over the years with lot of builders. You know, you've offered something and you can't provide it. Yeah. And then that affects the customer journey and it costs money, jobs on hold. You've got to come up with an alternative. So you really got to get it right at the start. Like I said, right at that front end, it's just as important as the backend. But unfortunately through a customer's eyes, the supervisors, yeah, the most important job through there is because they're bringing their dream to life. Yep. Yep. Yep. And that will be the one who is responsible for whether it comes to life. And the reason I was not, I wasn't laughing or anything, but when I had a little smirk on my face was. Again, I don't want to talk about Avondale Homes, but our leading design that used to get us all the leads and everyone wanted to build was unbuildable. Totally unbuildable. And we found out and we tried to bring it to slide and did we get some kickback. So very interesting and again, a very good lesson from you. Make sure. builders out there have their front end sorted and know what they can do. Those tick those three boxes, customer and all that stuff. Can you actually build it? Tom's money, right? Yeah. it's time. We've learned time. Whether it's time through the office, whether, know, cashflow time through the office, the customers renting longer. It affects their journey. The job gets put on hold. Their experience is hindered. you know, without the customer, you haven't got a business. as challenging as it can sometimes be. know, there's more out there now, there's more on social media, there's more available to them. There's a lot of independent inspectors coming in now, which, know, for the good and the bad, brings the trades that aren't up to speed, brings the standard up, but it's more time. The supervisor's life now is a lot harder than what it used to be. a lot more tasks involved there. So when I talk back in 2016, 2017 with 16 supervisors, what their task was back then compared to right now. Huge. Really? Their workloads double. didn't know. Like I'm not in that space. Really doubled what they're doing day to day has doubled. you know, so you continue to add more tasks on your supervisor. And if you keep them running the same amount of jobs, think workload is a huge problem. I remember a lot of supervisors moving around and hard to get around the COVID area. Was that the reason? Because workload doubled all the pressure. were a bit like you and were proactive and they knew what was coming on and they could have a bit of a smooth pipeline of builds, they just left the building. Because they like, I've had enough of this shit. There's just more involved now. There's just so many more moving parts, know, designs have evolved. You know, we've got curved facades. yeah. We've got, when you look at what we're building now, it's more involved than what we building back then. You know, the independent side of things has brought an element of time. It's all time on site. You know, there's four or five, you know, inspections where they'll meet the client on site with the inspector. You know if that's an hour inspection for five stages there's an extra five hours just in that job. So, you know, you really got to look at what the tasks are and what's when you look at how the role has evolved over time to what they're currently doing now, to what they were doing back then. And you got to take that into consideration now. And I think, you know, and you learn from your mistakes as well. And a lot of builders don't. And that's where you get a bit of burnout. You know, what can we do internally now to take off responsibility from the supervisors with the likes of scheduling, whether it's scheduling out with suppliers or forecasting with suppliers or frames or slabs or kitchens or whatever that looks like, you know, to help reduce that workload and work a little bit smarter to try and, to try and, you know, allow the supervisors to be as efficient as they can because they physically can't be everywhere at once. Yeah. You know, and then they're overworked and then you start talking about turnover. So they're little things I think that we need to be a bit more open-minded to try and, you know, keep the team together. I haven't learned so much. We lost a good service advisor and now he's got his own business up here. Russell, I bumped into him the other day just out of the blue. And, you know, we used to be part of the same building company and we lost him and he's firing away up here. And we lost a good person because we did not do that. Yep. And that's why you need to know your team. Yeah. Like you talk about. losing a good supervisor and a good bloke. And when you got a good supervisor and a good bloke, which is what you want, that's where you want the rest to be or where you want your pinnacle to be. Because I know a lot of supervisors that could go and do that every day of the week. They just like that having that job security. So you need to make sure that you're giving them what they need. And everyone's a little bit different. Some supervisors love a phone call a day. They want to bounce off and collaborate. Some just like to be left alone. It's working out what makes everyone tick to get the best out of them. And then you find yourself, you don't just focus, you don't want to focus on the number, right? It is all about the numbers at the end of the day, everyone's got to run a business, but you want to try and get the most out of your team and say, we've got to build them in this time or under this budget. If they're happy and you give them the right tools to do their job and they've got a good process to follow, the numbers kind of take care of itself. And that's a really fine balance as well, especially when you're not hitting the numbers, like what's causing that? What do need to do to change it? I think the how, and that's what I've learned as well over time, how you approach the change is critical to how it's received to make them feel like you're actually giving them the tools to be able to do their job more efficiently without saying, need to do this, Aaron, you need to do it a quicker. Yeah. Because if I come to you and say, hey, I've been working on this, how about we do this? And you're like, well, that's a great idea. and you're pulling the time out of the job. I haven't even told you that you're going to build them quicker. I've already worked out how you're going to do it. So you think I'm making your job easier, but my reward for that is you're actually building it quicker. Yeah. We haven't even spoken about the tools and being the right lady. Yeah. So that's really important. You're phenomenal, dude. Like real phenomenal. I am so happy you're a bold, because I've got a lot of respect for those guys, and I really like them, and I can't wait to see what you guys do over the next five years, especially with that flashing new office and things like that. I think it's all just come together beautifully for that company. So I am very happy about what's going on, even though I shouldn't have an opinion, but I do. Anyway, my last question for you, and I could talk to you all day, mate. Like I am just sitting here absorbing stuff. And we're going to have so much content that comes out of here. And thank you so much for it because when a share, if you don't mind, Rod, a lot of your opinions and your mindset, the way you think about things to our community, write a few articles. As I said, this has probably been one of the most informative, practical bits of advice of a podcast that we've ever done in terms of how to run a proper construction business and do it well. Because as I said, we do a lot of research around the customer and the number one thing right now is a supervisor. and construction and that communication and how they perform. That is what will make or break a building business in the customer's eyes. And we've never had someone that's been able to come on here and explain it so easily. Not, yeah, easily and what you should look at. man, I appreciate everything that you've done for us. But my last question for you, Rod, is, you know we're called the good builder. What do you think makes a good builder? We've touched on a lot of what I think makes a good team and obviously to success and being a high performing team. The three things that I think we need to continue to focus on no matter what, who you're working for, what you're doing is quality. Obviously the quality of the build, the quality of your drawings, of your estimating. It's such a strong across all the departments. Taking that deposit. What's the quality of the paperwork before you pass it on through the office? The next, but you know, the, quality and that, and that just, you know, enhances the customer. That's huge. making the customer feel like they're part of the journey and having a good customer journey, and communication, communicate without communications key. and it doesn't have to be talking to the customer. It's like, don't sit there and send an email to Johnny over there. Just get up and go talk to him. Everyone needs to talk more. And you get the body language and you start forming relationships. So I think face to face is key. And that's when you start supporting each other and you start building a good culture. So I think they're probably like the three key pillars, I suppose, into making a good business or a good builder. But obviously I've emphasised a lot on team. You can't do it without the people. And you know, the way I would look at it is, or you we spoke about getting the perfect person on the bus is, we'll go back to a cricket match and I'd much rather go out there and get a duck and win. Whereas the other guy would rather go out there and get a hundred runs and lose. Yeah. Cause he's in it for himself. So that, that's, that's the kind of philosophy that I always look down on my team. want them to succeed. That means I'm doing my job. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. but I'm really excited, you know, obviously one chapter is closed for me. Yeah. and then a new one's open. I've taken the time really excited, to join BOLD and work and collaborate with the team over there, you know, to, to, to look at, you know, working to improve. of making bold the good builder, know, so to speak. and the people of choice. So, you know, they're working on a lot of good things and I can't wait to get, get my hands dirty and get stuck in. Yep. Well, I gladly label you a good builder, mate. I gladly, I would gladly give up this chair for you because I think you do it, mate. I really do. I really do. I'd like, mate, this has been the most informative, the most well-rounded. podcast that we've done in terms of becoming a good builder and serving your customers well. It's pretty much everything we're trying to inform people about to be honest with you. And then we talk about the external stuff that we talked about too, or the government policy and that. The things you can't control. Exactly. But what you have just done today. is talked about all the things a builder can control and do it well to become a good builder. I am so grateful that we have chatted after all these months and why the hell did we do it earlier? We're both locals so. know so mate you're going to be on again if you don't mind we'll catch up with you in a month or two time and find out how bold's going and I said to you I've got a bit of an invitation to check out your new office so I'll be down there and mate you'll be damn sure I'll be knocking on your office door and going hey Rod. this pod was number one, first of all. And I want to do another one to have a bit of a chat and see what's going on down there. But mate, to be honest with you, that was fucking phenomenal. it's awesome. I'm just sharing life experiences and I've been lucky enough to have some, you know, great mentors along the way. So we wouldn't be anyone. It wouldn't be anything without people like you, man. Well, this is exactly what I wanted to do. It's a great chat and I followed it for some time. So happy. Thanks for having me on and I appreciate it. The thanks is all ours, man. Thank you. You're a legend.