Latest / DunkersPodcast / The Beauty of Cold | Gilly McArthur on Wellbeing, Nature and Cold Water

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The Beauty of Cold | Gilly McArthur on Wellbeing, Nature and Cold Water · DunkersPodcast

0:10
OK, welcome back to Dunker's podcast, coming to you from
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Abasok, where the water's rarely warm, but the conversations
0:19
usually are. Now today's guest brings a
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slightly different energy to the shoreline, Less about bravado,
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more about balance. Less ice bath, ice bath theatre,
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more nervous system, nature and what actually shifts in people
0:36
when they step into cold water. Gilly MacArthur has spent over
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20 years in the outdoor world, from free climbing to coaching,
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working with everyone from the NHS patients to CE OS athletes
0:50
and even actors. Her work sits right at the
0:53
intersection of cold water, mental well-being and
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reconnecting people to the natural world.
1:00
So today we're not just asking why people get in, we're asking
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what actually changes when they do.
1:07
Gilly, welcome to Dunker's podcast.
1:11
What a lovely introduction, thank you so much.
1:13
It's a. Pleasure.
1:14
It's a pleasure. Hi.
1:16
So you've been doing this for quite a while, haven't you?
1:18
1220 years that I can find. Well, I've been in working in
1:24
the outdoor world for about 20 years.
1:27
I started off doing sort of snowboarding and skateboarding
1:32
retail work and I worked in that field for a number of years.
1:38
And that was after I'd had a big corporate job in corporate
1:42
retail. So retail was my background.
1:44
Started doing a bit of snowboarding sales and working
1:48
for skateboarding and snowboarding brands and then I
1:51
started doing climbing stuff so moved to Bristol and got into
1:58
doing rock climbing and rock climbing sales.
2:00
So I have been, you know, in the outdoor industry in the UK for a
2:05
long time and it's only been in the last 10 or 11 years.
2:12
I've sort of flipped from the vertical world of climbing stuff
2:16
into the horizontal world of liquid watery stuff.
2:21
So. Yeah.
2:22
And when and when you did make that change, did you understand
2:26
that the rest of the world will actually sort of catch up with
2:30
you one day? Well, why was what It was
2:36
interesting because I think that being a rock climber, there's a
2:40
lot of crossover between rock climbing and cold water
2:44
swimming. But I think unless you've done
2:46
both, you don't really necessarily think that these two
2:49
very different worlds could be very intersected.
2:52
They both rely on teamwork, They both rely on critical thinking.
2:56
They both rely on sort of risk assessing situation.
3:01
And they both rely on you to at some point say, maybe it's not
3:06
for me, or maybe I don't go into the water, get onto the rockface
3:11
today. And I think that there's a real
3:13
sort of crossover between those two.
3:15
So when I started doing the cold water and swimming stuff and the
3:18
way that I was doing it, which was I liked finding bodies of
3:23
water that were near where I climbed in the summer.
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So I'd, you know, go off with my friend and we would go and find
3:32
these iced over bodies of water just to, to get into.
3:37
And it was at that point I was like, oh, this is this is this
3:40
is like the rock climbing stuff. I don't really like winter
3:42
climbing, ironically, because I get too cold, which is a bit
3:45
weird, but I used to used to get too cold.
3:49
I don't anymore. And so that's how that sort of
3:51
journey, you know, came. But I think that there's quite a
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lot of crossover between the two.
3:58
And of course, when I started doing cold water swimming stuff,
4:01
there was already, you know, there's so many people doing it,
4:04
but just not so many people doing it as there are now post
4:09
pandemic and with more people wanting to access, you know,
4:15
nature connection for themselves and for well-being and for
4:18
connection and all the good stuff.
4:20
So I think. I think if you wrote, wrote a
4:23
piece just about that you could entitle it from crampons to
4:27
costumes, couldn't you? Because that's the well you, you
4:32
can have that, you can have that.
4:34
So do you, do you see cold water a bit of this?
4:38
Do you see cold water as a tool or a teacher?
4:43
Oh gosh, that's a great question.
4:47
I think the water is a teacher. I don't think it's a tool.
4:50
I think it's a teacher. I mean, for some people it's
4:54
maybe a tool and not a teacher, but for me, there's always a new
4:58
layer that is learned when I'm at the water's edge or when I'm
5:02
in water or when I'm swimming the length of a Loch or
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something. You know, there's always
5:07
something that you can learn. And I guess an, an offshoot, if
5:10
that is that, then you can use it for if you've had a, had a
5:14
fizzy day at work and your head's a little bit hot and you
5:17
want to just find that reset, then it can definitely be a, a
5:21
tool. So I suppose maybe a bit of
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both. Good.
5:24
Yeah, good, quick. OK.
5:27
And on that, just very briefly, your very first exposure to this
5:32
cold water experience of of this whole experience, what did it
5:37
feel like? So I grew up in the north of
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Scotland, so I was always getting into the cold bodies of
5:45
water when I was weed. But I don't really remember my
5:48
first ever time on ice was when I was, I was younger and I used
5:52
to curl. I used to do the game of
5:54
curling, you know, online. So my my childhood was spent on
5:59
ice, but in a different way. Obviously not hacking into it.
6:02
You'd get into trouble for that. But my first experience of
6:06
getting into cold water here more recently and, you know, it
6:11
was an adult was yeah, on the shores of of Windermere here.
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And, and I was wearing a surfing wet suit.
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We just moved here and I was wearing a surfing wet suit.
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And I thought I'd give this cold water swimming stuff a go.
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And there were some women beside me wearing, you know, little
6:28
swimming costumes. And they were a bit older.
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And it looked like they were having such a wheel of the time.
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I mean, they were having such a joyful time.
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And I was completely tangled up in my surfing wet suit
6:40
afterwards, not really understanding what what on earth
6:43
was going on with these women. And like sidled up to them and
6:46
they just explained like, you know, in these temperatures,
6:49
we're not in for that long. Obviously if you want to go for
6:52
a longer swim, the wet suits good.
6:53
But this is just about the connection.
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And so that was my first experience.
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I went back the next day, ditched the wet suit and and
7:01
still found it unbelievably hard.
7:04
But had this, I loved feeling the water on my skin and being
7:08
in this sort of hydrostatic world and I just thought this is
7:12
this is amazing. So.
7:14
Like a lot of people, you know, it's that.
7:16
First experience. Well, it's like that first
7:18
experience that you remember and you go, this is pretty, this is
7:23
brilliant. You know what's what's what,
7:25
what earth is going on here. I'm standing on the shoreline
7:28
with dog walkers going. She's a bit weird or, you know,
7:32
that thing you're like, yeah. It is, it is, it's from extremes
7:36
essential, isn't it? It's just, it's an amazing
7:39
experience. So, so tell me, if you sort of
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look at your athletes and the CEOs and the NHS patients who
7:46
struggles the most with cold. Oh.
7:49
My God, Mark, that's such a good question.
7:55
So everyone's experience of water is different, so it would
8:00
be unfair for me to say that one group definitely seemed to
8:04
struggle more than another group because as you know, every day
8:07
is different, isn't it? But it's a brilliant question.
8:11
In my experience, I think that the people that struggle the
8:14
most are the people that have got the most to lose from
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showing up to be vulnerable, if that makes sense.
8:23
In that quite a lot of the work that I've done with maybe
8:27
corporate groups where you've got ACEO and then you've got the
8:32
group underneath that person, there's a little bit of maybe
8:37
not listening and a little bit more of like, what's the time,
8:40
the distance and the temperature?
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And when there's a bit of time, distance and temperature, a lot
8:45
of the listening to how to actually do it sort of goes out
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the window. And so sometimes in those
8:52
groups, you've got the head of the company who is struggling a
8:56
bit more. And then they're quite surprised
8:58
by that because maybe Jack from accounts is actually having an
9:04
easy time. And they're sort of thinking,
9:06
hang on a minute, why should Jack from accounts be better
9:09
than me? Because I'm the guy who's the
9:11
best person or a woman who's the best person.
9:14
So I think that that is sometimes what I notice, but it
9:19
really depends. I'm often quite surprised by how
9:22
some people find it a lot harder than other people when on the
9:25
show, everyone looks the same, but our bodies present
9:28
differently on different days. You know, some days you can get
9:31
in and it feels a breeze and other days you're like, what on
9:34
earth am I doing here? You you actually do that, don't
9:39
you? Yeah, That's that's that's
9:40
right. Is it So is is that a moment
9:43
when cold water hasn't worked for you?
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That when you stand there and you think, what am I doing in
9:49
this or in here now, is that one of those moments that you sort
9:53
of think, OK, this isn't quite working?
9:57
No, I think for me personally, and I know for the groups that I
10:00
have worked with and have experience of, you know, like
10:04
real honour of like being able to sort of coach into the cold
10:08
water, especially with the NHS work, is that even just by being
10:13
on the shore, there's an element of just sort of down regulating
10:19
and just be the fact that you've just showed up is almost
10:22
sometimes good enough and sometimes you don't want to get
10:25
into the water. And I don't think you ever
10:26
really regret a swim. I've only regretted a swim twice
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and once was out swam in a cave that had a bird carcass in the
10:36
bottom of it, which clearly was a bad idea anyway.
10:39
And. So the birds as well.
10:42
Yeah, well, exactly. And yeah.
10:47
And so I just think that there's something about, you know, it
10:50
not, not not working. I think that again, it's this
10:53
thing about teacher or tool, you know, it's like just getting
10:58
time to carve out for yourself when the world is sort of
11:02
wobbling is is really important. So there's something lovely
11:06
about just making that space. And if you get in and have a
11:09
longer swim grate, and sometimes it's nice just to have a little
11:13
bit of a risk assessment on yourself and say, what would I
11:15
like from this experience? And sometimes it's to swim with
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a group and sometimes it's to just float on your back.
11:24
Sometimes it might be to grab a pal and go for a much longer
11:28
distance swim. But sometimes it's nice just to
11:31
really check in with what you want and what you would like to
11:34
do before you stick with the original plan.
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And that that goes back to climbing as well.
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Sometimes it's like, you know what?
11:40
I just don't feel like really pushing my grade today.
11:44
I'd quite like to just have a mileage day or chat with your
11:48
friends side by side, chatting breaststroke.
11:52
It's all good. It's all great, isn't?
11:54
It because especially because you're in the water, yeah, yeah.
11:56
So do you think there is, do you think there's a slight risk this
11:59
is, it's just sort of gone through my mind that is this is
12:04
cold water dunking and stroke swimming becoming more
12:08
performative, IE is it more of an identity than a benefit,
12:13
would you say? Is there a risk of that?
12:15
An. Identity or you know.
12:18
That we we go on. Sorry.
12:22
Yeah, I'm, I'm not sure. I think cold water can be
12:26
whatever anyone would like it to be.
12:28
I think that it might. I think that there's a presence
12:33
that we can all take to the shore and be that in performance
12:36
as in I want to performing as in do you mean like, you know,
12:40
wanting to do a longer distance? That could be.
12:43
Well, yeah. The fact is that, you know, I'm,
12:46
I'm turning up. I'm here.
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I'm here because everybody else is here rather than I'm actually
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getting a benefit from this because not everybody that goes
12:55
in comes out singing and dancing like we do there.
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There are one or two people that think whoa, whoa, whoa.
13:02
And even in our dunkers group in Avasol, there are one or two and
13:07
they are guys, in fairness that have sort of said, yeah, I'll
13:11
come in, I'll come in and we egg them in and we encourage them
13:14
when we we're in the water. But they just can't connect with
13:17
it. So for them, it's, it's almost,
13:21
you know, it's well, yeah, I've gone in.
13:24
That's my performance. But actually I don't get any
13:26
benefit from it. That was, that was what that was
13:28
what was in my mind when I asked.
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So I, I do agree, I think that there is another way that we can
13:36
all harness well-being for ourselves through the lens of
13:40
cold water. And I think I know, I know this
13:44
because I've experienced myself with a lot of, with a lot of
13:49
people that I coached is that they might already have a
13:53
connection to water, which is to do long distances or to just
13:58
maybe just get in and just be standing.
14:01
So you've got 2 rounds of the spectrum.
14:04
For the people that just want to stand, there is an edging in to
14:08
go. Well, actually, we can be a bit
14:10
more present and then move through the water and do a
14:13
little bit of breast stroke. And for the people that are
14:16
already used to doing 5K triathlon Ironman distance,
14:21
there's a way that you can connect with the water, which is
14:24
to maybe slip off your wetsuit at the end and just maybe notice
14:29
where your breath is in your body.
14:30
You know, is it in your chest or is it in your stomach, right?
14:33
How are you breathing? Can you notice the sound of the,
14:38
you know, the sounds on one side of your face or the other, one
14:41
ear or the other? And there's a way that we can
14:43
use all of this so we don't need to Strava everything.
14:48
We can Strava 95% of what we want to do, but there's also a
14:52
space for us to have stillness. And then equally, there's also a
14:57
place for us to go. I wouldn't mind just seeing if I
14:59
can swim from that pier to that pier or to the end of the jetty
15:04
and back. And so it can be stretched
15:07
either way. But I think there is a way that
15:10
you can mould this for it to be a little bit more expansive at
15:13
either end of the spectrum. Yeah.
15:15
And that's what I'd like to play with.
15:18
I was. Going to say, it sounds as
15:19
though that's that's definitely your area of exploration.
15:22
That's your playground, isn't it?
15:24
Yeah, I do. And I, I, and again, it comes
15:26
from working in the rock climbing world where people, you
15:31
know, it's amazing, even the number of people now with when
15:34
I'm coaching like, well, I'm not really a swimmer.
15:37
And it's like, well, look, you're standing on the shore and
15:39
you've got a swimming costume on.
15:41
So anyone else is going to think that you're a swimmer.
15:43
So you're a swimmer. And it's the same with climbing.
15:45
Like I'm not really a climber. I only top rope and I only
15:49
climb, you know, severe or moderate or whatever grade they
15:52
climb. And it's like, well, you're
15:55
still climbing. You know, a marathon runner is
15:58
still running. They're not doing ultras.
15:59
They're still, they're still running.
16:01
If you're jogging to the post office, you anyone else would
16:04
look like saying they're, they're running.
16:07
So I think we have to be fearful about our language that it
16:09
doesn't define us. Everyone who is in the water is
16:13
a swimmer, you know, and then it's just what you do with that,
16:16
you know, and they're. Not they, they, they're
16:18
actually, as you've just said, they're not hacking anything at
16:21
all, are they? They're just, they're, they're
16:23
partaking, they're they're participating.
16:25
And yeah, they're, they're, they're all part of that.
16:28
So I'm going to just slide into to your sort of NHS side a bit
16:32
because the, when I was doing some research, there was this
16:36
outside 2 programme which you were, you went into.
16:40
I think it's fair to say and stop me if, if, if you don't
16:43
want to talk about it. But you, one of the things that
16:46
got you into swimming was you had an accident and and you were
16:50
sort of recovering from that. Is that something that you sort
16:54
of you could overview or shall we just move on?
16:57
You tell me no. That's totally fine.
16:59
So I had a really bad rock climbing accident.
17:03
It's funny, I can't even remember what was there. 20-12
17:08
maybe? I was rock climbing in Utah.
17:11
I was on at the top of a very tall route on one of these like
17:16
sandstone towers, like in mall for those of you that are
17:19
certain age of this sort of Marlboro man got and I was at
17:24
the very, very top of one of them looking for a cowboy.
17:27
Couldn't find 1. And I, I got up to the, up to a
17:34
point I'd climbed the hardest piece of the rock and I put in a
17:37
piece of gear above my head and I pulled up the rope and I went
17:42
to clip it in above my head and my foot slipped out of the crack
17:46
and I tumbled and fell. And I hit a couple of ledges and
17:49
I knew I'd done something bad. And basically I'd broken my back
17:53
and my ribs. And I was moved from Utah to
17:56
Colorado to a spine unit. And very lucky that I didn't
18:00
need anything major in any operations and things I got, I
18:07
had good insurance, so it was all great.
18:09
Anyway, moved back to the UK and still had a little bit of
18:13
inflammation in my back and one of the reasons why I quite
18:16
fancied giving this cohort suffer go was a very small part
18:20
of it was like, I wonder if this can help with that.
18:24
It wasn't the reason that I got into the water, but I noticed
18:26
that afterwards that my inflammation had gone down.
18:29
So that was one of the things for me and this piece about
18:32
resilience, that kicking it slightly into the long grass,
18:36
which I think is important to mention, is that Mark, after
18:40
that first or second winter of winter swimming where I was
18:45
showing up at the shore, you know, every day, every second
18:49
day getting into the water, I went back to the climbing wall
18:53
and arguably every single quark in my body should have been
18:57
saying don't do this. I'd started to climb again, but
19:00
I was very scared. When I got above a certain
19:03
height, I got quite scared. And what I noticed was I tied
19:07
in, got back to the wall, started climbing up and I got to
19:11
this high point and I carried on climbing.
19:15
And my husband was looking at me like, Oh my God, where's she
19:18
going? She's carrying help.
19:21
But the the long story was I wasn't scared anymore.
19:24
And from showing up on this shoreline, getting into cold
19:28
water in a way that was manageable for me by my own
19:32
volition, not doing it too much, not doing it too regularly, I'd
19:37
rewired my brain for resilience. And so and that's stayed, you
19:42
know, that's lasted this resilience.
19:44
And I think that's why so many of us love the cold water stuff
19:48
is that it allows us to find stressful situations in other
19:52
parts of our lives easy. You know, by by showing up it,
19:57
it allows us to sort of calm down and go, we did that hard
20:00
thing and now we can do this hard thing a bit easier.
20:03
So I think there's something really nice about that.
20:05
So the NHS work is coming to an end, but that's the work that
20:11
I'm doing, yeah, which is good, OK.
20:14
OK. Yeah.
20:14
So whereas I'm just sort of reflecting on what you were
20:18
saying about that recovery, because we've just locally had
20:22
the SHE Ultra this weekend down here in Abasoch and I think it's
20:27
either the 3rd or the 4th year. Forgive me if it's not exactly
20:29
right, but we've we've had there was almost 3000 ladies that were
20:34
signed up for this. Now it it this is major because
20:38
they were going over sheet tracks at one point over the top
20:43
of hills and obviously mile after mile on sand.
20:46
It was not easy. It was thirty 3035 miles, 5055 K
20:52
long way and and a number of the dunkers took part.
20:58
They kept and some of them came down the day after yesterday
21:01
morning and the water was a therapy.
21:05
It took that anxiety away. It took that, that what that
21:11
just that intensity out of it for them.
21:13
And they were, they just smiled and they just thought, yeah,
21:17
this, this seems to work. If if ever there was a testament
21:20
for cold water dunking, we should have caught that the
21:24
whole thing on video because it was it was that yesterday.
21:28
And just like you've just said, you you came to terms with it,
21:32
you moved on from there with that problem and with that
21:36
episode and it just you just carried on.
21:42
We can do. This absolutely.
21:46
Talking about hacking somebody, you'll be hacking this is.
21:49
All about resilience it. Certainly is.
21:53
So what the Outside 2 programme that's coming to an end you've
21:57
obviously that's what keeps you busy at the moment.
21:59
What surprised you the most about working with NHS patients?
22:05
So the what surprised me the most, the programme has been two
22:11
years in the running and it is a randomised control trial.
22:15
So these people have either self referred or they have been
22:19
referred by their GP and it's an 8 week programme to get into
22:22
cold water or outdoor swimming for themselves.
22:28
What surprised me the most, do you know what surprised me the
22:35
most is just how much, if you can get to sort of week 3, how
22:43
much joy can be had in it. Really, I think it's just, I
22:48
just think it's really beautiful.
22:50
I just think that the people that are coming along to the
22:55
programme are really wanting to do, you know, to change
23:00
something about their lives. And it's really beautiful to
23:04
watch people coming together in that liminal space on the
23:10
shoreline and being really brave.
23:12
Our, our trial has started up here.
23:15
We're in week 3 on tomorrow, on Tuesday.
23:18
The water up here is still quite cold.
23:20
It's still under 10°. And it's just a real joy to see
23:26
people coming together that maybe during the rest of the
23:29
week, they're not seeing anyone, you know, and they're coming
23:33
together at the shoreline, being brave, making cakes for each
23:37
other, having a beautiful connection, sharing a
23:40
vulnerability together, supporting each other, all
23:43
finding it really hard, but in a way which is manageable for them
23:48
and all being able to find that there's a different way to sort
23:52
of navigate the outdoors in a way, which is like, oh, I can do
23:56
this. And at the end of eight weeks,
23:59
what's happened with our group is that they've then set up
24:02
their own group. So we have a group which is set
24:06
up called the Newts nurturing emotional well-being through
24:10
swimming. And now they're all cheering on
24:14
that and part of that group. So, you know, who wants to go
24:17
for a sauna or a swim or who wants to share a recipe?
24:20
And that community coming together and watching, it's
24:24
just, it's just brilliant. And I think I wouldn't have, I
24:28
wouldn't have understood really quite how potent this can be
24:32
until I'd witnessed it myself. And I witnessed it again and
24:36
again and again. And I have done now with
24:37
thousands of people and it's just beautiful and.
24:41
I can only sort of humbly add, from our perspective, we never
24:46
ever understand, understood or even appreciated, let alone
24:50
actually we're aware of how strong community is around cold
24:54
water dunking. It's it's a level.
24:56
It doesn't matter where you come from doesn't matter.
24:58
Your sex doesn't matter, your age doesn't matter.
25:01
It does just doesn't matter. So you bring to it yourself and
25:06
nothing else. And that's so, so enlightening.
25:11
It's, it's wonderful to see. And, and I guess from your side,
25:15
because it's a programme that's been, it's a fixed programme.
25:19
So if funding was taken away from that programme, it sounds
25:23
as though the Newts are just going to rock on and rock on and
25:26
keep going. Exactly.
25:28
And I think the the challenge, you know, that the results of
25:31
this study, which is a randomised control trial will be
25:34
out this year. You know, we've already got a
25:37
rough idea. I'm not, I'm just a coach.
25:39
I'm not part of the number crunching and the scientists
25:42
side of it. But I think we all know, you
25:44
know, hopefully what the answer would be.
25:46
And of course, there's so many barriers to entry just to get to
25:50
the shore, you know, access certainly in, in more places
25:54
like where I'm in Cumbria and obviously where you guys are,
25:57
you know, there's, there's not, there's not that much many bus
26:00
routes, you know, taxis are really expensive.
26:02
So there's loads of barriers to entry.
26:04
And it's that things like, how can we diminish these barriers
26:07
in a way which is going to be meaningful for meaningful
26:10
change? But at least these groups are
26:12
now setting up themselves and supporting each other.
26:14
And it's and that's just brilliant.
26:16
You know, it's like, yeah, the water doesn't care.
26:19
The water just asks you to show up and, and, and be the best
26:22
version of yourself or not. And even if you're not the best
26:24
version of yourself, you can go into the water and you come out
26:28
and you're like, I'm a bit of a better person now.
26:31
Absolutely. So the, the water effectively is
26:34
a gateway, isn't it? That's, that's the, the, the
26:37
water becomes the gateway. Tell me, in your experience and
26:40
in the experience of this, of this randomized control trial,
26:44
would you say there's there's any other way of doing it
26:47
without getting the shock? Because it's that initial shock
26:51
that people sort of get, which they talk about and in fact puts
26:56
other people off, especially new dunkers, because they're sort of
27:01
thinking, you know, can we get similar benefits by just going
27:04
under a cold shower, for example?
27:06
Or do we have to get into a lake?
27:08
Do we have to get into the ocean?
27:10
It's what? Any thoughts?
27:14
I think that the mindset pieces is a really huge piece.
27:20
This is this is not part of the study.
27:22
This is what I've witnessed in the even showing up to be on the
27:26
shore, you know, and just dipping your toes into the water
27:31
is that first step. And we don't need to you know,
27:35
you can wear a wet suit. You know, this is not about
27:37
you're going to get cold in a wet suit that trickle down the
27:40
absolutely pleasant anyway. But there's something about just
27:45
sort of showing up and, and, and being off screens.
27:49
And I'm quite sure that there would be a great effect even if
27:53
it was. I took the group and we went for
27:55
a quiet walk in the forest with a bit of barefoot listening to
28:00
the bird song. But there is something about
28:02
stripping back and getting into water together and being
28:05
vulnerable together. And, and the water in the UK is
28:08
always quite cold. There is something about getting
28:13
into a shower which is quite sort of solitary.
28:18
You know, I don't know that many cold water swimmers.
28:21
Like I'm sure that you're dunkers, a lot of them probably
28:23
don't like it. I don't personally like cold
28:26
shower. No, it's just, it's just the odd
28:31
one that will say, oh, well, when I'm not dunking, I'll go
28:34
into a cold shower. And in fairness, if, if I've
28:37
been travelling rather than not have cold water exposure in a
28:41
day, you might take a minute to two-minute shower, cold shower.
28:45
But generally it's, it's as you say, you, you're sort of you're
28:50
on your own. There's this water is banging
28:53
down on you and you just it's not the same as dunking, is it,
28:56
or swimming. It's just not.
28:58
And The thing is, it's interesting because I've written
29:01
a book and it's going to be going out and it's, it's, it's a
29:04
global distribution. And a friend of mine who's an
29:08
author read the book and was saying, of course, in America,
29:12
access to water is far more restricted than it is here in
29:15
the UK. And obviously we have a deep
29:16
problem with water quality as well.
29:19
So I think it is it is safe to say that just having a cold
29:23
shower or just getting into a cold tub in your garden, having
29:26
a cold bath will have some benefit.
29:29
But there's a safety element of that, which is that you're doing
29:31
it by yourself. I mean, you could have a chat
29:33
with someone else, I suppose. But you know, I mean, there's,
29:35
there's an, there's an element of this community thing which
29:38
you. Think you'd probably get
29:39
distracted if you did that, if you had to call us out with
29:42
somebody else, but to. Be fair, I've never tried and
29:46
maybe I'll shoot my husband in there to get that kind of
29:50
benefit. Come back, come back into
29:52
series, next series and give us an update.
29:56
Actually, the only way to do that is if he was sitting next
29:59
to you, but we won't go there, so.
30:04
Yeah. So cold water is we've just sort
30:08
of discovered is a gateway. It doesn't sound there was
30:13
always, there was always a risk that when I talk to people about
30:16
junking, it was always a in my mind, is it a risk that I'm sort
30:20
of trying to overcomplicate things which we've always done,
30:25
which humans have done instinctively, or are we doing
30:29
that? Or are we just sort of found a
30:31
new horizon? I'm not quite sure.
30:34
It's, I don't think we're over complicating it.
30:37
I think it's just we, we're just heralding the fact that we've
30:42
found what generations have done for for generations, I guess.
30:49
Yeah, I mean, I don't think I I in again, in the book I've I've,
30:54
I've deliberately not mentioned the world.
30:58
I mean, it's I've deliberately not mentioned the world word
31:02
wild swimming. It's just swimming.
31:05
And the reason for that is I don't call it like wild running.
31:09
No, you know, it's it's just running.
31:11
Running. Inside, running, inside it's
31:13
just running. For me, it's swimming and I, I
31:16
appreciate that different people have got different ways of
31:19
wanting to define it. You know, Yeah, definitely I'm a
31:22
wild swimmer, but in the book I'm just a swimmer.
31:24
And I think that there's something about, you know, what,
31:27
like the lake here, there's some beautiful pictures of like in
31:31
the 1940s and 50s of when, but you know, the, the schools
31:35
didn't have, you know, swimming pools.
31:37
So they would all go down to the lake And that's their PE session
31:40
was in the, in, in the, in the lake.
31:44
And so I think it's something that we've forgotten.
31:46
We've, we all get, I mean, I love my heated seat in my car,
31:49
you know, and I think that we've all become quite comfortable
31:52
being a bit comfy, But I think our bodies and our brains like
31:56
to be stretched into pockets of uncomfortableness now and again.
32:00
And in that there's a growth and then that growth can then loop
32:03
back into other areas of your life.
32:05
So I think it's not, this is not something new.
32:08
This is something that you only need to loop back in even recent
32:11
history to see cold water plunge pubs.
32:14
And there's a, there's a Priory just near where I live in
32:17
Kendall that they would pipe in cold water from the sea for
32:21
people go and have this lovely, you know, cold therapy when it's
32:28
at the Coniston Priory. And it's, I mean, that would
32:30
have been some engineering feat back then, But it's, you know,
32:33
it's not something that is, is new.
32:35
This is something that we've just forgotten.
32:36
And it's great that so many more people are finding it again for
32:39
themselves, be that a tub or a shower or a it's.
32:44
And as you've said, there is something comfortable about
32:47
being uncomfortable, especially when you're doing it on a daily
32:50
basis. It's it just stretches you.
32:53
And I think that's so, so healthy in itself.
32:56
Just when we were off air before we started, I was just
32:59
mentioning and, and you'd actually sort of come back about
33:02
wimp yourself and wimp half. And there were one or two.
33:05
There were just one or two things that I sort of made a
33:08
note of that when I sort of because I've reached out to try
33:14
and talk to Wim Hof, because I'd like to sort of get a
33:17
perspective from somebody who is clearly a, a forerunner in this
33:23
or certainly as far as the publicity side goes.
33:26
But he's yet he's yet to to accede.
33:30
But he was sort of saying there's, there's sort of three
33:33
or four things that he he sort of pushed and one was extreme
33:38
exposure. He's very into extreme exposure
33:42
and he believes it's very much breath worth lead and the
33:48
performance is as a result of your endurance.
33:52
And everybody's got an individual challenge.
33:55
Now those are fairly accepted sort of principles.
34:00
We've talked about some this morning.
34:02
But the difference that I found from yourself, Gilly, was that
34:06
you're more about guided exposure and nervous system
34:12
regulation, understanding the body and sort of that well-being
34:17
and connection has come through very strongly already because
34:21
that's very much community based.
34:22
And and whatever I've sort of found dug in to him and to try
34:27
and find out what sort of floats his boat, excuse the pun, is
34:31
that he's very individualistic. He is very much about endurance.
34:40
He's very much about the extreme.
34:42
And from what we've said this this today on the podcast, it
34:47
sounds as though your focus is about community, more strongly
34:52
about well-being and about the guided exposure.
34:56
It feels like that's the difference between your approach
35:00
and Wimhoff's approach. I only mention this because so
35:03
many people, Harold Wimhoff as he's the sort of the master.
35:07
You've got to do it his way or you don't do it.
35:10
And as dunkers, I think that very few of us honestly in
35:14
Abasot ever sort of go anywhere near the extremes that he is is
35:19
promoting. We're very much more in your
35:22
camp rather than his. I just wondered if you'd ever
35:24
got a comment about about his approach.
35:29
I think that it's great. You know, I, I, I think that Wim
35:34
Hof is an, you know, amazing athlete and I think some of the
35:39
things that he's done are really incredible.
35:41
And I think it's absolutely brilliant that there are so many
35:43
ways that people can find the water and you just do what's
35:47
right for you, you know, And for some people it will be to follow
35:50
a method and a process. And for other people, it might
35:54
just be to join their local Blue Tits group and come down to the
36:01
shore and give it a try. And for other people, it might
36:03
be to turn the shower a bit colder and then get habituated
36:07
like that. And I think that no, everyone is
36:10
completely unique in their approach and what works for
36:14
them. And I think it's, you know, you
36:16
only need to look at the, you know, all of the testaments to
36:20
what these different modalities do and they and they all work
36:24
for different groups of people. My only comment back would be
36:29
that I've coached a few people who that style of breathing,
36:34
that sort of hyperventilation has not worked for them.
36:39
And so the back of that is that they've then been been perhaps
36:42
disappointed that they feel like they can't get into cold water
36:46
because they can't do that style of breathing forehand.
36:50
And so they've tried the Wim Hof method and it's not been for
36:55
them. And but it does say that on the
36:57
Wim Hof website, I believe it says, you know, this isn't for
37:00
everyone, for some people work. And so I think it's sort of Fair
37:04
that you've just got to try. But I think it's really
37:07
important to find something that works for you, for people that
37:10
have got. I've worked with a woman a
37:14
couple of weeks ago, she had quite severe PTSD.
37:18
She tried doing some different kinds of breathing methods and
37:22
they hadn't worked for her and it had been too alarming for her
37:25
and too, too much. So it was a far more gentle way
37:29
of getting in and opening up to the cold rather than battling
37:34
with the cold. When you see people getting into
37:38
the water and they're sort of like scrumpling up their faces
37:41
and they're holding their hands up and they're closing their
37:44
eyes and they're having this inner battle, arguably that's
37:48
them going back into some sort of response, which is not going
37:53
to be very nice for them. So they come out of the water
37:55
feeling great, but they've maybe not opened up to this experience
37:59
in a way which is more sort of calm.
38:03
So I think again it's like 1 size doesn't fit all for some.
38:08
People. Some people absolutely do Wim
38:12
Hof. Absolutely brilliant for other
38:15
people. It's just a different way.
38:18
Yeah, and, and, and, you know, and I think, and it's the same
38:21
with, you know, cold water for women.
38:23
It's like, you know, cold waters in, in this month's edition of
38:27
outdoor swimming. I think the April version, April
38:30
edition. You know, we talked about it
38:32
just recently with the coaches group from the outside 2 studies
38:36
that, you know, this cold water stuff is, is fine.
38:41
It's fine for everyone, you know, it's like we just have to
38:44
go at a pace which is right for you and for you today and for
38:49
you today, given the body that you've got today.
38:51
And it might be a bit tired and a bit more sleepy and it might
38:54
have had a glass of wine last night, so it might feel a bit
38:56
different. Absolutely.
38:58
Yeah, you each each each day and every day is a different day,
39:03
isn't it? Yeah.
39:04
So just I just want to sort of have just a few moments about
39:09
your book and and where we were up to.
39:10
But before I do, can I just ask you something that's just gone
39:14
through my mind is have you ever told anybody not to get in?
39:18
Oh yes, I have. Yeah, I absolutely have people
39:23
that I've had on coaching sessions and they have told me
39:29
that they have very, very high blood pressure.
39:33
I don't have a blood pressure monitor that I have like I'm not
39:36
a medically, I'm not a therapist and I'm not a doctor.
39:40
So if people say to me, Oh yeah, well, I have had very, very high
39:44
blood pressure, then it's like, well, OK, how do you feel today?
39:48
Well, I've not been feeling that great this morning.
39:50
So, well, OK, maybe you might want to just sit this, this one
39:54
out, you know, and I think that there's something, you know,
39:58
cool what is cold and it's a stress on the body and cold
40:00
water in the UK is anything under sort of 20°.
40:03
So, you know anything that gives you that sort of.
40:07
It's cold, isn't it? You know.
40:08
Absolutely. And one of I also sometimes
40:14
people come to the water and they think, Oh, well, I've been
40:17
shouldn't, I shouldn't eat? I've been told I shouldn't eat
40:20
because I might get a stitch. And it's like, Hey, what?
40:22
Listen, we're not swimming, we're not swimming.
40:24
We're just going to be dipping. You know, we're just going to
40:26
really dip. So have some porridge in a
40:28
banana before you get in. So get, get some food into you
40:31
before we have the swim. Right, right.
40:33
So you know, very rare, very rare, you know, but but but
40:37
there are definitely. If you're unsure, go and see
40:39
your doctor or. Sure, Yeah, yeah.
40:41
Which which you would do in virtually any other Occupy or at
40:45
sport if you were starting something new, wouldn't you?
40:48
I think it's just so it's just because taking your clothes off
40:53
is fairly straightforward and just getting into cold water.
40:56
Oh well, you know, we've all, we were all kids at one time.
40:59
So you just hook all those things together.
41:02
But you know, your body changes over between the time you were a
41:05
child and the time that you're now going into cold water.
41:08
So you check yourself out anywhere.
41:10
You would hope anyway, wouldn't you?
41:12
It's totally and, and it's even like, you know, even for me, if
41:16
I've like lost a little bit of weight or I'm a bit more
41:20
stressed, you know, I'll feel the water in a different way.
41:24
And I think it's really, I love getting down to the water's edge
41:28
and going, oh, and then having that, that sort of like meta
41:31
practice that like sort of how, how was that for me today?
41:34
Oh yeah, that that felt pretty good today.
41:36
I wonder what that was about. Was the water warmer?
41:39
They had more hydration last night, you know, and playing
41:43
with that, I'm like, oh, OK, well, you know, we're animals,
41:46
aren't we? So we.
41:47
Are yeah, absolutely. So I'm going to come to the book
41:52
because I know that this crystallizes so much of your
41:56
life or your recent life. It must do because you've,
41:59
there's so much in it and there's enough to fill a book,
42:02
as they say, you know, if you know that much, you can fill a
42:05
book. So the new book is called The
42:08
Beauty of Cold, which apparently is a visually rich and deeply
42:14
human guide to this sort of transformative power of, of cold
42:18
water. And I'd like just to for our
42:20
listener to read the the preface because that captures really
42:25
strong feelings for me. And it's and it reads.
42:29
Whether you're seeking resilience, calm, community, or
42:33
simply the joys of being immersed in nature, The Beauty
42:36
of Cold offers a life affirming path back to yourself in a
42:40
simple, achievable and lasting step.
42:44
At a time when we all need to escape the noise, this is the
42:47
perfect cold water antidote and allows a path to return to being
42:52
more human. Tell us a bit more about the
42:55
book. Well, that's nice, isn't it?
43:00
Yeah. Tell you about the book.
43:04
Why? Did you?
43:04
Why? Why did you think it was worth
43:07
you needed to write it? So I was approached to write the
43:11
book. Oh, I've contributed to in the
43:14
Amazon top 100 swimming books at the moment in the top 10.
43:20
So I think in the top sort of 20 I've contributed to, I think
43:23
it's like 7 of them. So I have contributed to a lot
43:27
of books. I've not written my own book.
43:29
And I got an e-mail last February asking if I would write
43:34
a book and I thought it was spam.
43:35
So I ignored the e-mail. OK.
43:39
And that's true. And then I had a phone call with
43:42
a lovely Commission commissioning editor who clearly
43:47
wasn't, wasn't, wasn't speak and said, no, we're, we're, we're,
43:51
she, she was real. And, and so I set about to write
43:55
the book. Initially, the book was going to
43:57
be more tipped towards women and women's experiences of water,
44:03
but I've done a lot of work with men and men's groups and I
44:06
really wanted to put more men into it.
44:08
So I wrote chapter headlines and, and, and came up with a
44:13
structure that they were very happy with.
44:16
And the book is going to be born into the world on the 21st of
44:23
me, which is good, so very. Soon the book.
44:26
Yeah, yeah, really soon actually.
44:28
So the and the books written for, it's exactly what we've
44:31
been talking about, Mark. It's really for anyone.
44:33
You know, there's a bit about meditation, there's a bit about
44:37
our connection to nature. There are some well-being steps
44:41
to slowing down, but there's also 9 or 10.
44:46
I should know, there's a 9 or 10 short stories in there which are
44:49
only like 2 or 3 pages, which are my experiences of swimming
44:54
in different locations across the world.
44:57
And the noticings that I've had through, you know, swimming in,
45:03
in, in Canada, in Fingal's cave, rescuing a bee.
45:07
And they're just stories that we've all had.
45:11
This book is really you could have this book could have been
45:13
written by anyone you know, But because it's just my
45:17
experiences. I'm sure that a lot of us do
45:19
notice of being in water and this connection to each other in
45:24
in into community as well, but it.
45:26
Hasn't been written by anyone. It's been written by you.
45:28
And that's really, really important.
45:30
I mean, it's it's your identity is going to come through and
45:34
it's presumably Waterstones, Amazon, wherever you get your
45:38
local books from, it's going to be available.
45:40
So I'm just going to pick up, I'm going to grab a word you've
45:43
just said the B What? Oh, there we go.
45:46
Beauty of Cold and you You're presumably modelling on the
45:50
front cover. No, I'm not.
45:52
Actually, I worked, No, I worked with the, I worked with a
45:59
Finnish photographer called Maya and Maya took the the bulk of
46:03
the photographs. There are quite a lot of
46:05
photographs that are of this British landscape in there and a
46:10
lot of pictures of me in, in there, but swimming with
46:13
different groups. So swimming with like a Muslim
46:16
women's group and swimming with different groups across the UK.
46:19
So it's a bit of a collaborative effort.
46:21
I am on back. I am on the back page coming out
46:24
of an ice hole. Yeah, that makes you feel cold
46:30
just looking at it, Gilly. Goodness, it's.
46:35
Yeah. But the B tell me about the B
46:38
Tell me about the B. Oh, so, yeah, so.
46:44
Well, when I spoke to the publisher, I said to her at the
46:48
beginning, I said, look, I don't think I can write that book.
46:51
I have got a story that I'd like to write about and maybe I could
46:54
put that into a book at some point.
46:56
And I told her the story about a bee and you could see her on the
46:59
Zoom call just. Like bit like I am now and then.
47:07
And the bee is very much in the book.
47:09
And it's just that the story is just about how 1 spring morning,
47:14
I got down to the lake and I started to swim out to the boy
47:19
and I found a bee upside down on the water out towards the boy.
47:25
And the story is just of me rescuing this bee and how I
47:29
managed to rescue it by taking my goggles and my swimming hat
47:33
off and putting the bee in the top of my hair and then swimming
47:36
back to shore and basically rescuing this bee.
47:41
And that's the story. So it's a very simple story, but
47:44
it's about connection and, and kindness and about slowing down
47:49
and about learning about, you know, nature and the nature
47:53
that's just underneath our, our toes.
47:57
And, and the, the, the strap line is basically that, you
48:00
know, I've travelled across the world and I've spent a lot of
48:02
time looking at nature in different wild settings, but
48:05
that story still. Resonates in your mind.
48:09
Yeah, yeah okay, so that's the story that people can actually,
48:15
when they start the book, they can think, I wonder where the
48:17
bee is. Yeah.
48:19
And they'll find it. They'll find the bee.
48:21
Yeah, Okay, So what we, what we do is, I mean, the, the, the,
48:26
this, this whole sort of story today is fascinating.
48:31
And obviously the, the beauty of cold crystallizes more or less
48:36
what we've, we've spoken about, but actually puts illustration
48:39
and colour and and vibrance and energy around it, which is
48:43
brilliant. And I'm sure for most dunkers it
48:47
will be on the bookshelf. I'm absolutely sure of that.
48:51
With dunkers, we, we try and ask a signature question because
48:57
when we've we've finished our interview, I'm going to ask you
49:00
to leave me a question. But there's been a question that
49:04
has been left for you. I'm not going to tell you by
49:06
who, because that honestly doesn't really matter.
49:09
It's just a question that when you ask people, they, they get
49:13
into a bit of thought and then they'll say, yeah, let's, let's,
49:17
let's go with that. So I'm going to ask you, what do
49:20
you what you promised to do to make our world a better place?
49:29
Oh, you know, I think it's probably just a very simple.
49:33
Simple answer is just to exercise more kindness and joy
49:40
in every aspect in a nice present way.
49:45
Perfect. Thank you very much.
49:48
Indeed. It's been, it really has been
49:50
one of those excellent conversations.
49:53
I'm sorry. We, we, we, we might have it
49:56
taken a while to sort of get into it, but it's been one of
49:59
those conversations that for me has sort of shifted how you
50:05
think about something. And it's not just louder, but
50:09
it's so much clearer. And I think that that's what
50:12
you've done this afternoon for you.
50:16
I would just because we're abersoch dunkers.
50:18
I just wish the spirit of the dunkers go with you from this
50:22
podcast and you must come back. I would love to have you back on
50:26
the podcast, if you will, just to give us an update, if if only
50:30
to say this. This is the amount of sales that
50:32
we've got. This is how well we're doing on
50:34
the on the book. This is.
50:36
The first, This is the first podcast.
50:38
You're the very first podcast that I've done around Cook.
50:42
Thank you. And I absolutely loved the one
50:46
swim that I had in Abersoch a couple of years ago.
50:50
It was the best community. It was just so joyful.
50:54
I had such a great time. So I'm dead keen to come back at
50:57
some point. Brilliant.
50:58
Well, we'll certainly have you back.
50:59
And for our listener, I would only say to our listener, you
51:04
know what to do. If you're anywhere near water,
51:06
you know what to do. You've heard it from Gilly
51:09
today. OK.
51:10
Thanks very much indeed. Thank you.