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E34 Build a Business Moat with Caroline Macdonald · Stronger Business Together

• Granger Forson: So this is the Stronger Business Together podcast where business owners learn from other business owners. No theory, no gurus, just real journeys and overcoming real hurdles. Today I'm joined by Caroline McDonald who runs Ogre Dune, who like any business owner, she's in that middle of building things, fixing things and growing something that really matters to her. So Caroline, welcome. Caroline: Thank you very much, Granger. Granger Forson: Awesome right let's get on with the hex one of the business Caroline: Yeah. Granger Forson: yeah we've both got the giggles as the mess-ups Caroline: Yeah. Granger Forson: we've made already but let's this is a all part of life's rich tapestry so Caroline Caroline: Completely. Yep. Granger Forson: tell us about your business what do do in plain English? Caroline: So in very plain English, I help businesses grow and gain revenue through reputation and brand building. Granger Forson: Excellent! so we all need that, the reputation Caroline: Mm-hmm. Granger Forson: stuff. So who do you love helping and what are they typically dealing with? Caroline: Really the inspired business owner, they could be a founder, co-founder, they could be a startup or they might be established, but those that really have something that's got something very clever or new to the market that has a clear demand and need, but they're also very passionate about it and they understand that for a business to grow, you need to gain revenue. To gain revenue and to grow, you need to be able to tell your audiences about yourself. It's no good just having website these days or the proverbial shop, you've got to tell people about yourself, where you are, why you need to be bored and therefore you can then grow from that. Granger Forson: Excellent. Yes, we need to get our voice out there. We need to understand who we are because ultimately we have to generate leads, which leads turn into sales and it's all part of that process of inspiring people to come knocking on the door. Fantastic. So when did the business start? What was that original spark? Caroline: So my original spark was back in around 2012, 2013. I had already run a business, successful environmental communications business, and with birth of my third child, just thought it's time for me to head out on my own, because why not when you're a busy working mum to start off on your own, you know? And back Granger Forson: Yep. Caroline: in that time, if you can think back all those years, really in the... realm of PR, digital marketing, social media and SEO, there's a lot of silos being formed. So you're either a PR expert or social media. And I very much felt that when you look at the audience, your gatekeepers, your clients and your other influencers, as it were, in the old use of the term, they really didn't mind how they got connected to. It might be through reading something on a press website. It might be through something on social media. They're not bothered. So therefore, a business shouldn't really be thinking in silo terms. So I started Ogadoon, which was a guerrilla communications business, off the back of, really, let's put the target audience at heart that can then be related back to your business goals and look at what marketing communications you need that are across the board. Often it was same sort of message, maybe window shopped slightly differently according to the channel or according to the audience, but the same sort of messaging to go out and you put it across all those channels where they might receive it. Nowadays it's far more commonplace for that to be the occurrence. There's a lot more cross marketing disciplines. There's a lot more cross marketing approaches as know, technologies and how we... Communicate have evolved but back then it still very much was the silo and I just felt that had to change Also at the same time I was very keen off the back of working with as part of a partner environmental communications agency that the work that I did was Meaningful and had some level of impact So whereas the actual business wasn't an impact business per se in terms of what Ogadoon did it's a professional services company It's really important that for me and the team, we worked with businesses that either had an environmental, social or protection sort of element to them so that whatever work we were doing, even if it was a really hard day in the office, know, with PR not going well, or the social media maybe falling a little bit flat, we were still motivated because of the business that our clients were delivering. Granger Forson: Fantastic. What's interesting, just sort of unpacking some of that. Even today, the clients I work with, I'm not marketeer, I'm a business coach. But often when I look at their materials and the way they describe themselves, they're describing themselves. They're not actually describing what the client wants or the client's feeling or the client's required. They don't talk about their marketplace. They talk about them. So it's still so true. Even today we get this wrong with this idea of talking about us first, rather than actually talking about who we're trying to attract to us and get them to understand then what we do and how we can help them fix their problems, pain points, whatever it is that we do for them. So yeah, absolutely true. Yeah. And yeah, and I know those ups and downs and feeling that when things just don't work and nobody Caroline: That's when things just don't work. Yeah. Granger Forson: books on the podcast for two weeks, you know, and then the Caroline: Ha Granger Forson: next week, four or five people just pop up and poke onto the podcast. So I fully understand that ups Caroline: Yeah. Granger Forson: and downs and knowing that. So, so fantastic. You know, what, does the business look like today in terms of size and shape? Caroline: So the business today is very different. Now it's gone through quite a boom period, which served really well for that part of my life, if I'm honest with you, because I very much built the business around my needs as a working mom. And we expanded and now I took the clear decision to pivot about 18 months ago, two years ago, to reduce it down. So I'm now really focused on one straight two clients, one principal client. which is where I'm a director of it. And that's where I'm servicing it fully as a CMO. And that's a conscious decision for it. you go through, your businesses always go through evolutions, right? And that's something that Granger Forson: Yeah. Caroline: as a CEO and a founder, you've got to be comfortable with. Now, a lot of founders, their solution is to do an exit. And that's very true for many of them, particularly if you're selling something that is tangible or it's a sass you know or something else where you can cookie cutter it to a level. When it's in professional services you know I did look at selling and I entered into a deal that didn't go so well so you know that was a learning part for me. It was then a choice of well what do I do now so I made the conscious decision to reduce and really focus in all my energies on one particular business, which is what I'm now doing. And I'm now very much enjoying that singular focus, as it were, being able to bring the breadth of all of my entrepreneurial experience and working with many other startups in the tech world and elsewhere. bring to bear on this particular business which is going great guns and has got a very exciting future. So it's really wonderful to be able to actually work with people that aren't just in marketing or PR or revenue or growth you know I'm working with some very very clever scientists and technical people which makes again the whole marketing and growth and revenue generation really exciting going forward. Granger Forson: Brilliant. I love that. That's a really interesting journey of the evolution of your business. And now you're really just focusing on that single business to help it grow. So let's move on to Act Two then, the highs and lows, your business journeys. So we always have difficult parts, we have tough parts, and running businesses you've been running for many years. When things get high, but also things get low in your business, what have you learned about yourself? Caroline: I think the main thing that I've learned about myself is utter resilience, which sometimes goes into bloody mindedness and stubbornness. But equally, it's the fact that the buck stops with you. You've got to keep going no matter what's happening around you, whether it's clients that are, you know, pulling up stumps or contracts come to an end or you're getting a turnover of staff. I think the hardest thing is to recognise the highs. You're always focusing on the things that aren't quite right. and you also are always moving your goals as well. So you might have actually achieved a goal, but you've already moved on to the next one. So at times it's really important just to take a moment, take a breath to see what has been achieved and then look at what hasn't or what you feel you still need to do. The very low bits clearly when it's your own business is when you feel you're losing. projects or clients and you think it's your own fault for things and you feel it's more of a slur against you and your name for it but often it is and there's a lot of other circumstances a lot of people are under pressure they've got to cut costs they've got to do this they've got to do that some new news come in you name it in that in that way so at times it's difficult to keep yourself going if you're the lone wolf at the top for it but I found speaking with other lone wolves at the top was very useful, just so you get that balance and you're like, it's not just me, about it all. And I think also going back over what you've achieved is really important as well. You know, how far you've come, Granger Forson: Hmm. Caroline: what you've changed, how you've pivoted or what's been, what you've tweaked. And then with the highs, you really have to celebrate those. And those highs might not necessarily be financial. It might be the fact that you've got a really good team that's working with you. or you've had a bit of a breakthrough on something or there's something else that's really happened or you're able to attract the right sort of projects and the right sort of client that is wanting to do what you're doing or supporting it in that way. So you navigate through both really, it is a roller coaster journey, it is not for everybody because you've got to build in that resilience and that Granger Forson: Yeah. Caroline: objectivity to make sure you don't go down a rabbit hole of where is me or this is all going. wrong in that way because often it's just a few things that happening at the same time and you just got to write yourself again. Granger Forson: Yeah, no, fantastic. We set up Stronger Business together and we have a thing called a Stronger Business Roundtable and we bring up six business owners together on a monthly basis to have a conversation. Just like you said, you need those lone wolves Caroline: Right. Granger Forson: coming together because we believe in a principle which is you make better decisions with peers. You don't make them necessarily on yourself all the time and you definitely can't use AI to make decisions. So that's really important. I so agree. Caroline: Yeah, that's true enough, yeah. Granger Forson: So really to bring Caroline: Yeah. Granger Forson: people together and have those conversations. Definitely, definitely. And interestingly, Caroline: Yeah. Granger Forson: we have a process within our business where every day we write down, we record it, what went well. Because we recognized Caroline: Mm. Granger Forson: a few years ago that we were losing exactly what you said. What was the thing? So we write that all down. At the end of the week, we read everything that we've written, and then Caroline: Mm-hmm. Granger Forson: we summarize that. And every month we read all our summaries. And once a year in our review meeting, we actually read the whole thing. We spend 20 minutes just reading as much as we possibly Caroline: Bye. Granger Forson: can from the entire year, just to remember all those positive things that happened during the year with all those highs and lows. So I totally agree. It is a really important activity to remember those and reward Caroline: completely. Granger Forson: yourselves for those. So fantastic. At The Stronger Business Together, we believe in making things simpler. both everything you do. give us some examples for anything that you've made simpler in your business that's made it easier for yourself or your team. Caroline: I think if I'm honest with you, the simplest thing that I brought in was really no BS in the team. No nothing that's flannely, nothing that's possible could be or anything. We have to be honesty and openness and transparency with the key things that I needed to have in here and that also goes to the clients as well. You know, I'm going to be honest, you've asked for this. that's not going to happen unless we put all these other things in place. Or, you you didn't tell us about this, so this has now had an impact on your reputation and your sales are now falling away because, you know, you're not being transparent with us. The same has to happen internally. Now, yes, you can get simplicity through bringing in systems, although I sometimes think systems can actually add to the load. So you need to be clear with what systems are going to be effective. But I found those three parameters alongside regular meetings internally really meant that things stayed simple. Now it's a little bit more challenging if your team is remote, which means it's even more important that you have these regular meetings so people can interact with each other in that way. But that transparency, openness and honesty is absolutely paramount within a business. Granger Forson: I love that. No BS. Fantastic. Yeah, that open-ended Caroline: Yeah. Granger Forson: honesty, transparency. Totally agree. And I think you're absolutely right with really, really regular meetings. There's only two of us in our business and we actually have a daily huddle every single day. And if we miss it, because occasionally I have to go off to visit some clients or go off early, we actually feel it in ourselves. We both Caroline: Yeah. Granger Forson: notice that we haven't come together for that. It's literally only six to seven minutes long. haven't come together for that meeting so yeah it is an important thing of It's not just about updating the business. It's also about human connections. We connect and Caroline: Exactly. Granger Forson: you can do that just as much remotely. did it in my corporate world. I had teams all around the country and all around the world and we all still got together through Zoom, etc. and made that connection. Even if it's remote, it works. I totally agree with that. Fantastic. Leads are really important in any business. They're a bit different to the moment Caroline: Yeah. Granger Forson: with only yourself and focusing on one client. But in the past, What lead generations worked for you and what maybe surprised you either good or bad? Caroline: tell you what didn't work for us any of the lead generation tools that you get sold they definitely didn't work for us because when your professional services business which could be an accountant, a lawyer, HR, support, recruitment they just don't work because it's all about the people connection it's all about understanding what pain points you are there to solve and it's about your word-of-mouth reputation. A little bit of it can be about being in a niche. So if you're a niche into a sector or sectors, that really helps as well. I have seen some of the lead generation tools work for consumer goods and cookie cutter sort of SaaS solutions, but nine times out of 10, I think that they are not as effective as the budget that you're spending on them. I think that most businesses could build their own. It doesn't take much to see who is going to be visiting your website. It doesn't take much to see who you want to target for it in terms of the sectors that you want to go to. And you just really work on your current clients to actually be your effective word of mouth, as well as a lot of online visibility, which is through good old standard PR. keywords on your website and now ensuring that you're getting papers and reports published and FAQ so you come up into AI search of which PR also helps as well for it. Clearly if you're a B2B business and you're looking for a few clients but they're big on spend, relational marketing is absolutely critical here to drive the leads from that business but also to maintain it and also to be recommended elsewhere. For other ones, relational marketing is still really important in B2B world. For B2C, there's a lot that's more relied on digital formats, whether that is paid ads, social media, that's paid as well, and anything else like that, affiliate marketing, for example. But I have to say that the one thing that would go completely in the bin is any lead generation firms. Granger Forson: Hmm interesting yes I have a very similar opinion on that as well Caroline: Yeah Granger Forson: from getting from my experience you know of experimenting and trying and understanding but I like that phrase you use actually relationship marketing I think yeah that's a really important one to actually think about and I like the way that that a couple of words just describe exactly what it's about yeah fantastic so people. We take on people as our businesses grow. at Stronger Business Together, we believe in growing your people so they can help grow your business. What have you learnt about growing people over time? Caroline: I've learned that there are people who are better at doing it than I am so therefore you know that's one thing that I knew I needed to get covered for it you know some good HR support etc because I think when you're the business owner or you're the founder you have a different approach to work than people that you employ whether they are freelancers or a salaried you know you want to get things done you want to grow it there's a different set of parameters for those that are employed in it. They don't have the same interests or drive as you do have and that you need to recognise that. And I recognise that through making mistakes. I did not get it right at all in a lot of ways. And some of the areas I did get it right in that sense. So I think a lot of this is, again, really finding the person that has got the skill set fit or the majority of it. because there'll always be room to grow on that, but has got the right persona or character or culture fit for what you are running because it can really be challenging. That's very much important when you're in a professional services firm because you are effectively largely selling people. There might be some technology with that, but largely it's people focused. When you're looking at other businesses, It's more about making sure if you're looking at a business that's global, it's making sure you've got a team in the right place that can deliver what it is that you're needing to live if it's on the technical, engineering or manufacturing side of things. And it's also, you know, it does take well to take a moment to really understand who you're wanting to have come on board for it. And then also understanding what nowadays is expected from you know, being employed in that way. So what sort of perks and bonuses can you give that means that it actually tallies up to be more in that person's mind. So for example, you know, I, right since day dot in my business, I always ensured that everybody had their birthday off. I was like, the worst thing is to be at work on your birthday. Horrible, you know, then you have to buy the donuts. I never understood that. So was like, I'd rather you be off. I don't care Granger Forson: Ha Caroline: if it's a Tuesday or a Wednesday, just have that day off because, and even if you, have a duvet day, crack on. I don't want you to be in work because it's just odd for me in that way. So as a small business, you can come in with little things that you can't do as big gestures that other big businesses can do, but you can really think it through for what you can do. And that does a lot to help people. In terms of bringing people on, I was always really clear that there wasn't a glass ceiling and they really could develop how they wish to do. And a lot of the people that I employed used working with me as that... opportunity to develop what they wanted to really understand where they wanted to go next in their next career stage and I was very happy to help them with that. Granger Forson: Fantastic. No, I really love that. I loved everything you said there and that real understanding about, you know, developing people and growing them and making them successful because often they're only with us for an amount of time. It's very rare that somebody stays in a business for the whole of their lives these days. And we are a shepherd of their development. And if we shepherd them rightly, then actually they'll deliver amazing service and products for us. And that's actually what we want them to do. So, yeah, very true. you know, teams. building a business, you we build habits and things, you you've talked about meetings, but maybe what's one other habit that you put in place to keep your team strong? Caroline: I suppose one of the things is I never had meetings on a Monday morning because none of us are really up to speed and want to get going really so our meetings usually started about 11.30. We'd have the usual weekly gathering and I was like yeah 11.30 is good because then we're all a little bit more energized and awake for the working week so that was one key element. Another key element was every month, because we were a small team, every month I took them somewhere for lunch and we would try new restaurant in Bristol where we live and worked and so that also helped the team to come on. And also I was also very open to needs of the team, particularly if they were going through emotional times. So I definitely... had more than one who had deaths in their family and had to deal with a lot of stuff. So it was about being flexible with what they needed to do, if they needed to solicitors and things like that. And just having that human touch of understanding of what was needed because of what was going on in their lives as well. Granger Forson: Hmm beautiful. Yeah, no, I love that one of the conversations I have with My clients about their people is, you know, I use a phrase that I was taught by the Japanese many, many years ago, and that is to be human, strict, but fair, you know, approach everything from a human point of view. We're all humans. We're all different. We all have different understandings. Different things are happening in our lives. We all think differently. Strict because strict because the business has to achieve things. Things have to get done, you know, specifically around health and safety. You know, we have to deliver because that's how we're actually Caroline: Yeah. Granger Forson: going to make our money because of which pays for your salaries, but fair, that we are fair between everybody. And doesn't mean that we keep everybody the same, but actually we're fair in our approach and we're not being vindictive and difficult to anything else. We're actually Caroline: Exactly. Granger Forson: fair. so, yeah, I loved your answer. It really sort of brought that emphasis out that I use a lot that phrase. So thank you for that. So let's move on Caroline: No problem. Granger Forson: to Act 3 now, our hurdle round. So what have you brought for us to discuss today for the hurdle? Caroline: Well, I had quite a few choices from my own experience, but I've Granger Forson: We did. Caroline: actually gone on one with, I've done with clients in the past and that was working with an AI power consumer gadget when they're first to market, really quite astonishing first to market. And when you look back at it now, you think, why was this not thought about or done before they came along with it? And the hurdle that's... they had to overcome and continue to overcome successfully is as soon as there is a new consumer product on the market that looks like it's got demand and big appeal and broad global popularity, you're going to get very quick copies and competitors. Not always, but by and large likely to be from some Chinese-fronted firm. You know, they might appear Granger Forson: Yeah. Caroline: very American or you... European, but they are likely to be Chinese. And Granger Forson: Hmm. Caroline: they're usually able to undercut on price because they've got the manufacturing arm of their business, you know, as most things are manufactured in the eastern part of Asia, not exclusively just China, know, there are other places that do manufacturing, but you know, it's got such a big, Granger Forson: Yep, they're right indeed, Caroline: it's got such a big wealth of manufacturing, it's a massive part of their economy. So quickly enough, there were competitive products on the marketplace. However, the hurdle that got overcome was making sure that market share wasn't lost to them in any extensive way. Now, part Granger Forson: Hmm. Yep. Caroline: of that was helped to the fact that market share just broadened. So the market just broadened. You there's more people that decided to it. Granger Forson: Yep, so it's a new product. It's a new marketplace. It's going to grow and develop quickly in its own structure Caroline: Yeah. Granger Forson: and right. Yep, absolutely. Caroline: So there is that, that helps a bit. The key one here was in being first to the market and in the level of the communications that were done with the customers was continuing that community feel and that direct communication. Granger Forson: Yeah. Caroline: And that was took place in lots of different ways. Clearly there was a social media group on Facebook. There were newsletters. but there's also really high quality customer service and Granger Forson: Okay. Caroline: an identification of, excuse me, a super fan group who could do lots of testing and relations with, excuse me, I've got to take a drink. Granger Forson: Yeah and this is yeah so so that's fine so what we're talking about here is we're talking about a product that comes to market and we're talking about how do we build that moat around us you know Warren Buffett says Caroline: Exactly. Granger Forson: he only invests in companies with big wide Caroline: You Granger Forson: moats you know and the first type of thing people always think about is Patents, you know, can I get patents out there? But patents are slightly difficult because it's a double-edged sword with a patent. Yes, you can protect your idea, you can protect the technology, but you have to defend it if people then... try and find ways around it. You have to try and defend that patent. And once you've got a patent, actually there are people that are out there deliberately who will try and find their ways around it. So therefore even your patent then therefore isn't valid anymore. So I've seen that many times. So while patents are great Caroline: Yes, I've a lot. Granger Forson: ideas, in theory, there are a lot of people and then you can patent in one country, but at the same time you patent in other countries. If you don't patent in those countries, they can copy as well because there isn't really a proper global wide patent type process. So that's one we always think about, Caroline: Exactly. Granger Forson: but I want to explore some of these other ideas you talked about because Caroline: Mm. Granger Forson: to me the first thing you need to get right is the quality of the product and the service. Because if your quality is outstanding you will be recognized in the marketplace for that. We often panic when people come in with cheaper products, but quality always wins. What's your thinking on that? Caroline: Yeah, I agree. Just on patents, it is a double-edged sword. Anybody from any country could order it and take it apart and work out how it works and how it's put together. think absolutely Quality of design and quality of the technological working is paramount for it. So it has to look and feel good, particularly consumer gadget these days. has to seemingly fit into a lifestyle of different types of... situations but it has to hit that and Granger Forson: Yeah. Caroline: the design has to work in terms of actually doing the hardware job it needs to do so needs to if if needs to be robust Granger Forson: Yeah. Caroline: it needs to be robust if it needs to be easy to unlock it needs to be easy to unlock. Nowadays the technology we are expecting it to be seamless so we don't particularly want any issues with the technology and if there are issues with the technology which happens There has to be really robust support so that you can either get replacements or you can be talked through how to problem solve it in any way such as that. Granger Forson: Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Caroline: Then wrapped up in that is expectations on what the customer service is going to be. So you need to have really quick, really rapid customer service that actually does what it needs to do. Now it's absolutely fine having holding message going back saying, for this. leave it with us, we'll investigate it, but you have to then come back within whatever deadline you've said that you're going to do because customers are very easy to go to Trustpilot or any other site and just downgrade the reviews for you. So Granger Forson: Yep. Yep. Caroline: when you're planning things like this, you might be very excited about what your thing can do, but you have to really walk it through from the perspective of your potential customer who doesn't owe you anything. doesn't owe you any loyalty, doesn't owe you any positive reviews. You've taken their money or you're about to take the money and their expectations are high. And we all know that if something doesn't go according to plan, how often that can get worse if we're not treated in the right way and it's not dealt with appropriately. Granger Forson: Yeah. Yeah. Caroline: So you want to really overemphasise the quality of your care as well as the quality of your product. And if it's a new product that's been launched, you test and test and test and test until it's absolutely right and works in all different sorts of circumstances with lots of different stress testing. And then you have the confidence of that to go forward. Granger Forson: Perfect. And so starting with quality, quality of service. that you're coming up in the background that's going to support your customer service, quality of the product, quality of the delivery, quality of the packaging. All these things are really, really important. I always remember Walt Disney is quoted as saying when they were building the animatronics for the jungle ride in the first Disney theme park and some of the bird actions he wasn't pleased with. And he said, I want a few more actuators. I want a few more movements within that. And they said, Mr. Disney, no. will actually spot that. He said people feel quality and I think that's really important. So first of all it's that you know how you perceive it, you know what your website looks like, what your product looks like, how it arrives, what the packaging feels like, what the not just the physical product and then what it does but then as you say the support services afterwards. Because if competitors Caroline: completely. Granger Forson: copy you they will not have that level of understanding because they're trying to move fast. They're trying to try and gobble up some marketplace they see coming through. They will not have that same level of detail and understanding. Nobody's really caught up Apple with the iPhone and the iPad. There's lots of competitors Caroline: Exactly. Granger Forson: out there, but quality is one of the key things that Apple does. So quality is first. Customer service is really important. But then you talked about some other interesting things. which is then the Caroline: Mm-hmm. Granger Forson: interaction with your customers and building fan bases and super fans, etc. So Caroline: Yeah. Granger Forson: how did that help then to develop the wider moat to protect this product? Caroline: So in a number of ways, there's some practical and some that are just emotive. So emotively, the brand loyalty starts to really build and the fact that they will then look to influence others and they will then be ones that are open to purchasing upgrades to the technology or add-ons or whatever it is on that. The practical thing is that you can then test things out. You can then get really good customer feedback. We're thinking of doing this, would you go for it, would you buy it, know, what would you do or what do you think you need now? What you love our product, what should we do next to improve it? And all this really high intelligence stuff that you could pay a market research firm a lot of money to try and get a level of that. But by going direct to your customers and having this loyal fan base, and there'll only be a certain number that will be that bothered enough to respond. you know, there's a lot that just, I've got the product, thanks very much. Others will respond and they take very well to that because they're so passionate about it, so interested in it, that they will Granger Forson: Hmm. Caroline: do that response back to you. And that is just absolute gold. That is your best currency for knowing where you need to innovate next. Is it a new product that's going to run alongside what they've got? Is it developing the technology? If so, what do they, what's really being shouted back at me loud and clear? from this, know, also what they're likely to pay for it, you know, we're looking at this price, you know, would you go for it? Yes or no, et cetera. You just get, you mine such incredible information from that. And if you've got it from a big enough source, then you don't have the skewed biases that one or two might have. You have quite a broad church of inputs from it. So that then really helps to develop your moat. It helps to protect your loyalty. And sometimes there are also champions online, know, and people saying, it doesn't do this. They'll go back, no, no, it does, you know, blah, blah, blah. But they also give you your next step, your next commercial step. And you've already then got a marketplace that is likely to buy. Granger Forson: Fantastic, yeah, I totally agree that that super fan type set of people, it's not everybody, it's not all your clients, it's probably less than 10 % of your clients. But building that relationship with them because they are the people that will champion your product online, that will champion your product, they will help you do that. We think about Tesla, when Tesla was first launched, Model 3, there was a lot of online debate and and rubbishing Tesla and attacking them because they hadn't brought it out on time and everything else. But in all those tweets, all those things, were people that Tesla fans who were building up from Tesla and saying, this is now this is coming, this is amazing, this is great you should see mine you should see what happening and it wasn't every single Tesla driver it was just a few of them because they have that passion and they integrate with them and they Caroline: Exactly. Granger Forson: they work with them they communicate to them specifically they create little environments for them that is right for them and that's that super fan that helps to build as you say and then stops that cheaper alternative. You'll never stop the cheaper alternative coming into the marketplace, but if you start building that environment, place where people can come to and stand out differently, then you'll have that. I I always think of Dyson. Dyson had a Hoover. It Caroline: Yeah, yeah Granger Forson: was very different to other Hoovers, but it's still the same thing. Yet now people say, I have a Dyson. They don't say I have a Hoover anymore. And Dyson just like Apple Caroline: Exactly. Granger Forson: created the shops where people go and see the products, they feel it, they touch it and they understand it. They have that difference in the marketplace. They don't sell it just through every store. They sell it through their own unique environments, which they control and manage and make that stand Caroline: Exactly. Granger Forson: out. And not all of us can go to a Dyson store. Not all of us can go to an Apple store, but we can feel that understanding, that quality, because they've built that something special. So building that within your moat is an important stuff. We'll stop those cheap Caroline: usually. Granger Forson: imitators coming through. So yeah, fantastic. Some really good thoughts Caroline: Completely. Granger Forson: there. yeah, we've got a product and we're thinking about the next step of getting towards launch and development. We're worried about people coming along and stealing our ideas and making cheap imitations and copies. What would we do? What sort of order that we'd think about? advice would you give them as sort do A followed by B followed by C? What would you do? Caroline: So if it's a new product, there's various ways that you can actually test the market demand for it. You can pop up a web page, you can do demand generation through ads and things like that to see how many people would sign up and be the first to receive whatever it is on that. And you don't have to give away too much of your... you know, commercial secret sauce on that. What you're really doing is talking about their pains or their delights that you're going to give to them, you know. It's not all about solving a pain, it's more about solving an issue that you didn't think you had, you know. And you can do that really effectively through online. conversion in that way and you test the funnel for it. You are always going to have competitors looking around you if you've got competitors. It's just the nature of it. It's how you build it internally first and get your existing client base to be really excited about it. And then you launch. Clearly, if you're going to have a long time between doing that and launching, you're going to be opening yourself up to significant opportunity by competitors to come out quicker or with a lower price on that so you've got to have a nicely tight ship on that making sure that your supply is in place and your demand is in place but you can do it with a view to this is when we're going to launch on it and don't forget it's not until the products are actually physically out there that a competitor can really look at what what you're doing, you know, you might have, okay, you might have put a couple more patents in so they can get part of a look for it, but you've already got things already made ready to be manufactured or being manufactured. So you've got a steel in that way. You just want to do your research, understand the market demand, understand the propensity for your current clients or customer base to purchase, and then go quickly with your testing, then go quickly with the launch thereafter. Granger Forson: Yeah, fantastic. And my final thought on it is don't be worried about competition. Yeah, we worry about cheap imitations. of my clients, he's built a very successful business. It's grown very rapidly and a competitor came into the marketplace three years ago. and they were trying to undercut him and they went bust. And so he bought their assets and so he's actually increased his own stock significantly to Caroline: Yeah Granger Forson: be able to help grow his business. And now he's taken a massive leap this year, nearly increased his revenue by nearly half again because he's now got this extra set of Caroline: There you go. Granger Forson: assets which he can do. So don't be worried about cheaper invitations, focus on quality. And that's what he did. He was always focusing on quality of service, always delighting. his customers and they have massively grown and there are other people coming to the marketplace but you know he's not worried by them because he sees that they can't undercut him they can't do that but yeah it's slightly different in a technology in a product marketplace but don't be afraid of them and just use that to drive your Caroline: Exactly. Granger Forson: passion to make your product better. Well fantastic right and let's move on to our wrap up and close now Caroline: Mm-hmm. Granger Forson: Caroline. What did you hear yourself say today that maybe surprised you? Caroline: What did I say that may have surprised me? I think that I came out so coherently if I'm honest with you, or maybe I'm not coherent, I don't know for it. I think it's probably looking at... the truth, honesty and transparency bit because I hadn't really thought of things in that way and that is so important in a business internally and externally and the businesses that aren't that tend to struggle and know flim flam in the breeze or they really just limp on in that way so I think they're the three key three key three things that are important that are hugely intangible but very important. Granger Forson: Fantastic. Thank you for that share. Finally, where can people find out more about you if they want to follow more of your journey? Caroline: Well, they can obviously on LinkedIn, you can try and find me out of all the Caroline McDonald's that are on LinkedIn if you wish to, or you can just email me at caroline.ogadoon.co.uk. Granger Forson: Well Caroline, thank you so much for being open and honest today. I know our listeners will get a lot for this conversation. It's been fantastic. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you. Caroline: Thank you, Granger. It's been utterly delightful. It's been really great to chat like this. Don't do it that often. So this has been a total thrill. Thank you. Granger Forson: for spending your time with us today. mission to make business owners stronger together. If this conversation has helped you, please like, comment and follow on whatever platform you're using. About 60 % of our audience hasn't done that yet, and these small actions will help us reach more business owners just like you. If you'd like to join in the conversation as a guest, or if you have a hurdle question for us to discuss at a future episode, do reach out to us at info at strongerbusinesstogether.com. Now, go make this next week really successful and we'll see you at the next one. Cheers!