Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Brutal end of search for "Baby-Faced" Serial Killers

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Brutal end of search for "Baby-Faced" Serial Killers · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The other day, Lucy, my
0:11
Speaker 1: little eleven year old twin girl. Lucy asked me, Mom,
0:15
Speaker 1: am I ever going to get to take a walk alone? Okay?
0:21
Speaker 1: Of course the answer is no, But I went, of course, honey,
0:24
Speaker 1: why would you not be able to take a walk alone?
0:27
Speaker 1: Of course I'm going to be following her behind bushes
0:29
Speaker 1: in my Gillie suit the whole time. But imagine if
0:34
Speaker 1: she said, Mom, guess what I'm gonna get And I've
0:38
Speaker 1: also like a minivan with my boyfriend and we're going
0:41
Speaker 1: to drive all across the US in Canada. No, but
0:47
Speaker 1: of course you had to say yes when they get
0:50
Speaker 1: to the age of twenty four and you have to
0:53
Speaker 1: let them go, right. I imagine that's what the parents
0:58
Speaker 1: of China d sage four and Lucas Fowler, her boyfriend,
1:03
Speaker 1: age twenty three. But that's what their parents thought when
1:07
Speaker 1: they let them go. They were found dead on the
1:11
Speaker 1: side of a road, apparently having trouble with their van,
1:15
Speaker 1: and whoever stopped to quote help them murdered them. And
1:20
Speaker 1: that leads me to the names of the two so
1:23
Speaker 1: called baby Faced killers. Two guys. Briar Schmigelski, eighteen and
1:32
Speaker 1: Cam mccloyd nineteen, who not only are suspected of killing
1:38
Speaker 1: these two innocent tourists, but also a college professor, Leonard Dike,
1:45
Speaker 1: age sixty four. In the last hours, a stunning break
1:49
Speaker 1: in the case. I Meancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
1:52
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. Take a listen to
1:54
Speaker 1: our longtime friend Matt Gutman at ABC. That Canada wide
1:58
Speaker 1: search for those two murder suspects ended with the discovery
2:02
Speaker 1: of what are believed to be the remains on Friday
2:05
Speaker 1: August second. That one critical piece of evidence was found.
2:08
Speaker 1: Items directly linked to the suspects were located on the
2:12
Speaker 1: shoreline of the Nelson River. That evidence was this damaged boat.
2:16
Speaker 1: It took only a few more days to find their bodies.
2:19
Speaker 1: Now Canadian authorities tom tell us that a corner will
2:22
Speaker 1: determine how and when those two murder suspects died. That's right.
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Speaker 1: The so called baby faced teen serial killers who murder
2:32
Speaker 1: an American backpacker tourist aged twenty four and her boyfriend
2:36
Speaker 1: twenty three, and a sixty four year old father of
2:39
Speaker 1: two have now been found dead in the wilderness after
2:46
Speaker 1: out running and outsmarting the cops for two weeks. Two
2:50
Speaker 1: male bodies found by a river in Manitoba. Police say
2:55
Speaker 1: they believe they are the bodies of Brier Schmagilski eighteen
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Speaker 1: Camlploid nineteen. An autopsy will not only confirm their identities
3:03
Speaker 1: but the cod cause of death. The two on the
3:06
Speaker 1: run throughout northern Canada, leading police on a wild goose
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Speaker 1: chase for the last fifteen days. The two wanted for
3:14
Speaker 1: the murders of a young couple and a college professor,
3:17
Speaker 1: a botanist, and just hearing that, I can guarantee you
3:21
Speaker 1: the professor didn't start it a botanist. Really, why straight
3:26
Speaker 1: out to crime online dot Com investigative reporter Dave mac Dave,
3:31
Speaker 1: what happened, Nancy? As we followed this case. We followed
3:33
Speaker 1: it from when these two young teenage guys were actually
3:37
Speaker 1: reported as missing and maybe endangered, and we had the
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Speaker 1: young couple, the North Carolina woman and the guy from Canada,
3:45
Speaker 1: and then the professor, the college professor. When those murders
3:48
Speaker 1: took place, we started switching from Hey, these teenagers are
3:52
Speaker 1: possible victims of a serial killer. Two they are the
3:55
Speaker 1: suspects that began an international manhunt. Two burned out cars.
3:59
Speaker 1: Three people were dead and they end up in them
4:02
Speaker 1: at the end of the line in the most remote
4:04
Speaker 1: area they could possibly find in Manitoba. But last weekend
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Speaker 1: finding that johnboat that can that you know, rafting boat
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Speaker 1: if you gonna call it was a loom. It looked
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Speaker 1: like an aluminium johnboat to me. They found it damaged
4:15
Speaker 1: by the side of the river, and that was the
4:17
Speaker 1: start that they had an idea that maybe those guys
4:19
Speaker 1: were nearby. Right now, we don't even know the condition
4:22
Speaker 1: of the bodies. We don't know anything about them, you know,
4:25
Speaker 1: because when I was first looking at this as it
4:26
Speaker 1: started breaking, I thought, well were they did they kill themselves?
4:30
Speaker 1: Did they die? Did they drown in the river? And
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Speaker 1: they just found them on the side of the river.
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Speaker 1: You know, their bodies could be found in any kind
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Speaker 1: of situation, and we just don't know. We know that
4:39
Speaker 1: the bodies were found together, we do know that. We
4:43
Speaker 1: don't know if it was a murder suicide. We don't
4:46
Speaker 1: know if they both were attacked by a bear. We
4:49
Speaker 1: don't know if they were if they drowned and pulled
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Speaker 1: themselves out of the water, or if they drowned in
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Speaker 1: the water. And you know, ended up on the side bank, floating.
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Speaker 1: We just don't know. After two weeks on the lamb,
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Speaker 1: after three dead bodies that we know of, how do
5:02
Speaker 1: we land here. Our officers have worked tirelessly to find
5:05
Speaker 1: the suspects wanted in connection to the homicides in British Columbia.
5:10
Speaker 1: While there were no confirmed sightings since July twenty second,
5:15
Speaker 1: we never gave up in our search efforts, falling up
5:18
Speaker 1: on every lead, considering all options and using every available resource.
5:23
Speaker 1: We knew that we needed just to find that one
5:25
Speaker 1: piece of evidence that could move this search forward. On Friday,
5:30
Speaker 1: August two, that one critical piece of evidence was found.
5:34
Speaker 1: Items directly linked to the suspects were located on the
5:37
Speaker 1: shoreline of the Nelson River. Following this discovery, we were
5:42
Speaker 1: at last able to narrow down the search. We immediately
5:46
Speaker 1: sent and specialized our SMP teams to begin searching nearby
5:49
Speaker 1: high probability areas. This morning, at approximately ten am, our
5:54
Speaker 1: SAMP officers located two male bodies in the dense brush
5:59
Speaker 1: within one colomb from where the items were found. This
6:02
Speaker 1: is approximately eight kilometers from where the burnt vehicle was located.
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Speaker 1: At this time, we believe these are the bodies of
6:10
Speaker 1: the two suspects wanted in connection with the homicides in
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Speaker 1: British Columbia. An autopsy is being scheduled in Winnipeg to
6:17
Speaker 1: confirm their identities and to determine their cause of death.
6:21
Speaker 1: Joining me an all star lineup Jason Ocean's renowned defense attorney.
6:25
Speaker 1: Karen Smith, forensics expert, founder of Bare Bones Consulting. Karen
6:29
Speaker 1: Starts psychologists out of Manhattan. You can find her at
6:32
Speaker 1: Karenstart dot com and joining me right now Crime online
6:35
Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter Ellen Killlauren Ellen. I want to
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Speaker 1: start at the beginning. What happened July fifteenth. The bodies
6:44
Speaker 1: of a young couple, Lucas Fowler and his girlfriend, China Geese,
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Speaker 1: who from North Carolina, who were traveling together on a
6:51
Speaker 1: road trip, are found shot to death and a remote
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Speaker 1: area of Highway ninety seven. Four days later, a burned
7:01
Speaker 1: body is found about a mile away from a burned
7:04
Speaker 1: out pickup trucks about three hundred miles away. Tell me
7:09
Speaker 1: about these two victims. I know one as an American girl.
7:12
Speaker 1: It was on kind of a dream road trip with
7:15
Speaker 1: her fiance. They're both, of course gorgeous he's from I
7:19
Speaker 1: think Australia. They're seeing the world, I think, traveling in
7:23
Speaker 1: a van and suddenly nobody hears from them, and that's
7:28
Speaker 1: when their bodies are found. What do you know about them?
7:30
Speaker 1: That's all correct, Nancy, what you said, Um, Lucas Filer
7:34
Speaker 1: was an Australian native. His father is actually a police officer.
7:38
Speaker 1: They had been together for a couple of years. They
7:41
Speaker 1: both loved to travel, they loved each other, and that's
7:44
Speaker 1: what they were doing. The very last thing that the
7:47
Speaker 1: very last image that we saw of them was at
7:50
Speaker 1: a gas station not long before they were murdered, and
7:52
Speaker 1: they're they're in an embrace. What about the girl? She
7:55
Speaker 1: is from North Carolina, She's an American. She met her
8:00
Speaker 1: her boyfriend while they were traveling because that's what they
8:04
Speaker 1: both loved to do, and she joined him on a
8:07
Speaker 1: road trip in through the country of Canada. Ka's referring
8:11
Speaker 1: to China. Decee just twenty three years old of North Carolina.
8:17
Speaker 1: The boyfriend, Lucas Fowler twenty four years old, dad a cop.
8:21
Speaker 1: How does Leonard Dike, sixty five of Vancouver fit into
8:25
Speaker 1: this scenario? Eka? Leonard Dike again, someone who would not
8:28
Speaker 1: have had any enemies. He was a university professor. He
8:32
Speaker 1: is a botanist, and his body is found four days
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Speaker 1: after Lucas and China Burns. Take a listen to what
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Speaker 1: the father of one of the two, as they are
8:44
Speaker 1: called baby Face suspects, has to say. They hung on
8:48
Speaker 1: it all the time. Briar never had Cam stay at
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Speaker 1: his mom's house, war or his grandmothers. It was always
8:56
Speaker 1: at Cam's place or had a few other close friends
8:58
Speaker 1: and they'd have their campouts and all that. I don't
9:03
Speaker 1: know much. I don't want to caps Camp's family. Okay,
9:08
Speaker 1: so I know they're hurting as much as I am.
9:10
Speaker 1: I know they're very confused. All I can say is
9:14
Speaker 1: my son did not have any real guns. My son
9:18
Speaker 1: did not have a vehicle. My son does not know
9:21
Speaker 1: how to rife. He was very introverted and he was
9:27
Speaker 1: very heavy into video games. When he came to work
9:30
Speaker 1: for me for the summer, I didn't pay him and
9:33
Speaker 1: I just had a very expensive customer computer for him,
9:37
Speaker 1: which he was quite content with. You know, he wasn't
9:39
Speaker 1: into the ones where you know, you have your machine
9:41
Speaker 1: gun and go shooting people. He was more into strategy
9:45
Speaker 1: where you move your troops here and there. So how
9:48
Speaker 1: did two seemingly innocent boys end up like this? Crime
10:04
Speaker 1: Stories with me Itzy Greece, breaking developments north of the
10:10
Speaker 1: border and a manhood for two teenagers wanted for the
10:13
Speaker 1: depths of three people, including an American woman and her boyfriend.
10:17
Speaker 1: After weeks of searching, Canadian authorities believed they found the
10:20
Speaker 1: bodies of the suspects. The bodies discovered about two thousand
10:24
Speaker 1: miles from where the victims were found. Welcome back everybody, Ambiency, Grace,
10:28
Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
10:30
Speaker 1: Taking us to our friends at Sky News Australia. This
10:34
Speaker 1: is Christie Culture Royal Canadian Mounted Police say the two
10:37
Speaker 1: bodies found near a burnt out van in dense bushland
10:40
Speaker 1: in the Manitoba region, along to nineteen year old Cam
10:43
Speaker 1: McCloud and eighteen year old BRYERSH mcgilsky. The pair had
10:47
Speaker 1: been on the run for just over three weeks. The
10:49
Speaker 1: pair had last been seen three thousand kilometers away from
10:53
Speaker 1: those bodies in a small town of Gillam on July
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Speaker 1: twenty second. That's the last siding that police had of
11:00
Speaker 1: the pen. They recently found several of their items near
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Speaker 1: a river bank in the Manitoba region that allowed place
11:07
Speaker 1: to bring in their search area and now find those bodies.
11:11
Speaker 1: There's obviously a certain amount of relief that we were
11:14
Speaker 1: able to locate these people and hopefully bring some closure
11:18
Speaker 1: not only to the victims of the homicides, but to
11:20
Speaker 1: the people of Guild and Fox like Creation York Landing,
11:24
Speaker 1: Wilfrid warlike Nake. It's it's huge to be able to
11:27
Speaker 1: hopefully give some people an opportunity to exhale Christie culture.
11:31
Speaker 1: Breaking down the discovery of two dead bodies as we
11:36
Speaker 1: wait on a full autopsy. But how did these two
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Speaker 1: so called babyface killers ages just eighteen and nineteen, their
11:46
Speaker 1: parents swearing they were quote good boys, take a listen
11:52
Speaker 1: to our friends at ABC. They were accused of shooting
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Speaker 1: American China dies and her boyfriend Lucas found point blank
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Speaker 1: in July fifteenth, then driving to another part of British
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Speaker 1: Columbia and murdering this college professor. Those that's sparking a
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Speaker 1: message Big in Manitoba spotted the pair, ending the rav four.
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Speaker 1: The two were believed to have stolen. The two so
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Speaker 1: called baby Faced killers. I don't know have they even
12:18
Speaker 1: got that nickname to Jason Oceans joining me right now,
12:22
Speaker 1: renowned defense attorney joining me out of New York, New
12:25
Speaker 1: Jersey area. Jason, monikers are attached to killers, and I
12:30
Speaker 1: don't like that because somehow it's seemingly takes away from
12:34
Speaker 1: the reality. Nancy, I agree with you. I hate that that,
12:39
Speaker 1: you know, sort of connotation of baby face. It just
12:43
Speaker 1: it does take away from being, you know, an accused murder,
12:47
Speaker 1: multiple murders, and you know, leading US, leading authorities on
12:51
Speaker 1: thousands of miles of chase and keeping people up at
12:55
Speaker 1: bay in their own homes. This is rural Canada. Uh,
12:59
Speaker 1: you know, greater than in the size of the United
13:01
Speaker 1: States and thirty million people. Most of this land out
13:04
Speaker 1: here in the west is uninhabited. Hey, Jason, you know
13:06
Speaker 1: that my Hallmark movies and they're not mine, they're Hallmarks,
13:10
Speaker 1: but The Hilly Dean based on my books. They are
13:14
Speaker 1: shot up in Vancouver, and it's beautiful, beautiful country up there,
13:20
Speaker 1: but you go long, long stretches where you don't see anybody. Jason,
13:26
Speaker 1: I mean, these two it's like looking for a needle
13:28
Speaker 1: in a haystack. They're in the continental divide. I mean,
13:30
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. I mean in between you know, the
13:33
Speaker 1: coast of Vancouver and nothingness. It's beautiful, but it's just
13:40
Speaker 1: wide open. And the amount of law enforcement, the resources,
13:43
Speaker 1: those who know, getting posters up, that type of stuff
13:46
Speaker 1: that we do here, and you know in the states
13:50
Speaker 1: out there, it's escaping them. You know. I want to
13:53
Speaker 1: go back to Karen start psychologists joining me out of
13:55
Speaker 1: New York. These two have gotten the name I'm talking
13:57
Speaker 1: about the alleged killer Schmigelski Anne McLoyd. They're young, that's true,
14:03
Speaker 1: but the name baby face killer. You know, why do
14:06
Speaker 1: we glamorize killers? Like what about all those women throwing
14:10
Speaker 1: themselves at that low moron Chris Watts who kills his
14:14
Speaker 1: wife Shanan and his two babies. Charles Manson getting love letters?
14:18
Speaker 1: That Jody Arius, the Jezebel from hell, She's getting love
14:24
Speaker 1: letters and marriage offers. I don't get it. Why are
14:27
Speaker 1: they the baby face killers? You know? Think about it.
14:30
Speaker 1: You go on a road trip, Karen Stark, you with me,
14:34
Speaker 1: because I don't hear a peep out of you. I'm listening, Nancy,
14:37
Speaker 1: I'm right there. Karen Stark, you and your husband Mark
14:41
Speaker 1: go all over the world. Every time I see Karen's talking.
14:44
Speaker 1: I'm like, what, Steve, Well, we went to Rome, and
14:46
Speaker 1: we went to Monica and went to con I'm like,
14:49
Speaker 1: what all I did was go to work? Tell me
14:52
Speaker 1: about I can live through you think about it. You're
14:55
Speaker 1: at one of your many, many luxurious vacations and your
14:59
Speaker 1: dry along with Mark, your beloved husband, and bam, these
15:02
Speaker 1: two idiots pop up out of nowhere. They are not
15:05
Speaker 1: baby face killers. Why are we saying that there's nothing
15:08
Speaker 1: baby faced about them? There? These are like three killers,
15:12
Speaker 1: Nancy are These are killers who they don't take the
15:15
Speaker 1: time to cool down between their killings, so that just
15:19
Speaker 1: encourages them to go from one to the next, and
15:22
Speaker 1: they encourage each other. Usually in a situation like this,
15:25
Speaker 1: one of them is more dominant and the other one
15:28
Speaker 1: more passive. But they have revenge fantasies. As the father said,
15:33
Speaker 1: one was very introverted and on social media had a
15:37
Speaker 1: lot of Nazi symbolism. And they are not they be
15:43
Speaker 1: innocent to be admired killers. They are cold blooded killers
15:48
Speaker 1: who are having a really good time out there killing
15:52
Speaker 1: people that they don't know, just to get revenge and
15:57
Speaker 1: excitement out of their systems. Revenge for what they didn't
16:00
Speaker 1: even know these people. What are you talking about? This
16:02
Speaker 1: revenge against society? They feel disenfranchise against society, my rear end.
16:10
Speaker 1: They have had homes, they have been cared for, they
16:14
Speaker 1: have been given three meals a day and education. Revenge
16:17
Speaker 1: for what? That's not the reality in their minds. In
16:21
Speaker 1: their minds, they're disenfranchised. In their mind they have jobs,
16:25
Speaker 1: they lose them. And you notice they're supposedly going out
16:28
Speaker 1: there to look for jobs. So they're not feeling very powerful.
16:33
Speaker 1: They are feeling like they can't keep you know, the
16:37
Speaker 1: offense whoa wait, wait, wait wait, I want to pick
16:40
Speaker 1: up on something you said now, no offense Jason Oceans
16:44
Speaker 1: and here in the studio, Elie and John, no offense
16:49
Speaker 1: to men in general. But let me circle back here
16:51
Speaker 1: and start to feel powerful. You know, I never want
16:54
Speaker 1: I'm never at one time in my life and I
16:56
Speaker 1: ever wanted to feel powerful. I just want to work,
16:59
Speaker 1: do a good job. Bob, come home to the twins,
17:02
Speaker 1: goog a little redbeans and Rice. You know, watch little
17:05
Speaker 1: Sherlock comes before we fall asleep? What feel powerful? Who
17:08
Speaker 1: wants to feel powerful? Why is it always men that
17:11
Speaker 1: want to feel powerful? Well, I guess because it has
17:14
Speaker 1: to do with that whole macho feeling of the power
17:18
Speaker 1: behind the gun and the ability. Okay, wait, wait, wait,
17:21
Speaker 1: wait wait, Karen start. Jackie Howard here in the studio
17:26
Speaker 1: has just given me a significant update. Jackie Howard and
17:31
Speaker 1: all her intensive legal research has discovered that these two
17:35
Speaker 1: like to play war games in the woods. Now. You know,
17:38
Speaker 1: when I was little, say nine or ten, I would
17:41
Speaker 1: build fortside of pine straw, and we would throw pine
17:44
Speaker 1: cones and sycamore balls. As wrong as that is. But
17:49
Speaker 1: these two, how old are they? How old are they? Ek?
17:53
Speaker 1: How old are these two? Eighteen and nineteen years old?
17:55
Speaker 1: And they're still playing war games in the woods. If
17:59
Speaker 1: we are to league Jackie Howard anyway, what does that say,
18:02
Speaker 1: Karen start? They're still playing war games in the woods,
18:06
Speaker 1: running through the woods with fake guns. And I think
18:09
Speaker 1: they also like to play war games online. So they
18:13
Speaker 1: really are excited about the idea of being able to
18:17
Speaker 1: shoot a gun and go through the motions of capturing
18:21
Speaker 1: somebody or finding their target. And even though they're eighteen
18:26
Speaker 1: and nineteen years old, they are still two boys who
18:31
Speaker 1: get a charge out of doing that. They so called
18:34
Speaker 1: baby face teen serial killers who murder an American backpacker
18:40
Speaker 1: tourist age twenty four and her boyfriend twenty three, and
18:45
Speaker 1: a sixty four year old father of two have now
18:49
Speaker 1: been found dead in the wilderness after out running and
18:54
Speaker 1: outsmarting the cops for two weeks. To all you moms
19:04
Speaker 1: and dad's out there listening. If you're like me, you
19:08
Speaker 1: pour all your love, all your dreams, all your hopes,
19:12
Speaker 1: all your energy, all your money, all your everything into
19:17
Speaker 1: your children. Can you imagine you go out of town
19:21
Speaker 1: for just a couple of days and you get a
19:23
Speaker 1: call your baby's missing. I cannot even think about it,
19:30
Speaker 1: but that is what happened to Michael Stern. He gets
19:33
Speaker 1: a call that his only child, his beautiful girl, Sarah Stern,
19:40
Speaker 1: is missing and her car has been found abandoned on
19:43
Speaker 1: a remote bridge. At first, they tell him they think
19:47
Speaker 1: she committed suicide. He's like, no way, she didn't do that.
19:51
Speaker 1: That couldn't happen. What happened to Sarah Stern? When you
19:57
Speaker 1: see her picture, you're gonna flip. Bubbly, vivacious, aspiring artist
20:04
Speaker 1: had lived through losing her mother to cancer and fought
20:08
Speaker 1: back This Saturday at a special New Time on Oxygen,
20:15
Speaker 1: nine pm Eastern, eight Central. What happened to Sarah's turn
20:20
Speaker 1: Injustice with Nancy Grace? Please join me? Thank you friend.
20:25
Speaker 1: I'll see a Saturday nine o'clock Eastern, A brand new
20:29
Speaker 1: time Injustice with Nancy Grace. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
20:43
Speaker 1: Welcome back, everybody. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
20:47
Speaker 1: Two male bodies found by a river in Manitoba. Police
20:51
Speaker 1: say they believe they are the bodies of Briarsh mcgilski
20:55
Speaker 1: eighteen Cam mccloyd nineteen. An autopsy will not only confirm
20:59
Speaker 1: their identities but the cod cause of death. The two
21:03
Speaker 1: on the run throughout northern Canada, leading police on a
21:07
Speaker 1: wild goose chase for the last fifteen days. Why a
21:12
Speaker 1: clearer and darker picture is emerging of a murder suspect
21:15
Speaker 1: at the center of a cross country man hunt. These
21:19
Speaker 1: photos of Brier Shmagelski, sent to CBC by a fellow
21:22
Speaker 1: online gamer, showed the team dressed in camo with a
21:25
Speaker 1: Nazi symbol on displays a much different image than the
21:29
Speaker 1: boy people here knew in person. He was a nice kid,
21:33
Speaker 1: very quiet. Lisa Lucas lives a few doors down from
21:36
Speaker 1: Schmigelski's grandmother, where he often stayed as a child. Her son, Ryland,
21:40
Speaker 1: became quick friends with Shmacgelski. The two played together for years,
21:44
Speaker 1: but eventually grew apart. Ryland just said he just gave
21:48
Speaker 1: off a weird kind of a vibe. He just after
21:51
Speaker 1: a while just started making people feel uncomfortable. She says,
21:54
Speaker 1: her son became concerned with Shmagelski's love for violent video games.
21:58
Speaker 1: He would mention things about like if this was real,
22:01
Speaker 1: you know, like when they're playing video games, like could
22:03
Speaker 1: you imagine if this was real kind of a thing,
22:06
Speaker 1: so and you'd get a little too excited about it.
22:08
Speaker 1: I guess you were hearing from our friends at the CBC.
22:11
Speaker 1: That was Tonga Fletcher. Who are these guys joining me
22:15
Speaker 1: right now? A forensic expert and I have worked with
22:18
Speaker 1: her many times and she is the consummate expert, also
22:24
Speaker 1: the founder of Beer Bones consulting with me right now?
22:27
Speaker 1: Karen Smith. Karen, first of all, let me just start
22:31
Speaker 1: with an elementary question. Tell me about the primary crime
22:36
Speaker 1: scene where the two bodies, the young North Carolina girl
22:40
Speaker 1: China Decee and her boyfriend twenty four, the CoP's son,
22:44
Speaker 1: are found. Then I'll move to a potential third victim,
22:48
Speaker 1: the college professor Leonard Dyke. Well, the first scene is
22:51
Speaker 1: going to be where their van was found on the
22:53
Speaker 1: side of the road. There were reports that one of
22:55
Speaker 1: the back windows was broken. I don't know if that
22:58
Speaker 1: means blown out by a bullet or I don't know
23:00
Speaker 1: if that means broken because it had been broken before.
23:02
Speaker 1: They're going to be looking at the positions of the bodies.
23:05
Speaker 1: How were they positions on the side of the road.
23:07
Speaker 1: Had they been executed, had this been completed at a distance?
23:12
Speaker 1: Was it a drive by? They're going to look at
23:15
Speaker 1: the van, what was wrong with it? How was it
23:17
Speaker 1: broken down? Was it a rural road where there are
23:20
Speaker 1: a lot of people that pass by. They're going to
23:23
Speaker 1: be asking people who may have witnessed anything to come forward.
23:27
Speaker 1: You look at the bullets, You look at the ballistics man.
23:29
Speaker 1: So we've talked about this ad nauseum before. The ballistics
23:32
Speaker 1: are going to tell a story, maybe not the story,
23:35
Speaker 1: but a story. What type of gun was it? Was
23:37
Speaker 1: it a rifle? Was it a handgun? Is there any
23:40
Speaker 1: stippling or earned an unburned gun powder on the body
23:43
Speaker 1: showing a close contact or close range gunshot. All of
23:48
Speaker 1: those horndics are going to come forward and tell a story,
23:51
Speaker 1: But it doesn't give us the name and address of
23:55
Speaker 1: a suspect. It just tells us the ballistics and what
23:58
Speaker 1: may have happened at that scenes. Kill me, how you
24:00
Speaker 1: believe Karen Smith Barebud's consulting that the two bodies of
24:05
Speaker 1: China Deese and Lucas Fowler can be connected to that
24:10
Speaker 1: of the college professor Leonard Dyke. We're looking at ballistics.
24:13
Speaker 1: If Leonardyke was shot, and from reports says that he was.
24:19
Speaker 1: They're going to look to try and match the bullets
24:21
Speaker 1: from the first scene where the two were gunned down
24:24
Speaker 1: to the Leonard Dyke scene where he was apparently gunned down.
24:26
Speaker 1: If they can match those ballistics, we're going to show
24:30
Speaker 1: that it was the same guns that fired those bullets.
24:33
Speaker 1: So those links are going to be critical. Of course,
24:36
Speaker 1: the state never has to prove motive, Isn't that right?
24:40
Speaker 1: Jason Ocean's estate, for instance, me trying a case, I
24:44
Speaker 1: don't have to climb into these guys heads and figure
24:46
Speaker 1: out why did they do it? Why, what were they thinking?
24:50
Speaker 1: What were they tired of playing Minecraft? In their mommy's basement.
24:54
Speaker 1: I don't know. Are they tired of running through the
24:56
Speaker 1: woods with an air soft? I don't know, And I
24:59
Speaker 1: don't have to know. I just have to know I've
25:01
Speaker 1: got the right person and the right jurisdiction and the
25:04
Speaker 1: right victims and a general time span. That's what I
25:08
Speaker 1: need to know, and I need to be able to
25:10
Speaker 1: prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. So motive motive, But
25:16
Speaker 1: I will say, Jason, I am curious. Don't you think
25:19
Speaker 1: juries want to just out of curiosity? No, a motive
25:23
Speaker 1: they do, Nancy, I mean, and as I listen to
25:25
Speaker 1: you speak, once a prosecutor, always a prosecutor, and and
25:29
Speaker 1: certainly motive doesn't matter. It's just part of story. As
25:32
Speaker 1: you say, juries like to hear that these are lay
25:35
Speaker 1: people who want to know, well, what happened? How did
25:38
Speaker 1: these you know, eighteen nineteen year olds teenagers quote unquote
25:45
Speaker 1: in a bad way, baby faced killers? How did they
25:47
Speaker 1: get to this point? So, you know, part of that
25:51
Speaker 1: is a background, their family background. One of them is
25:55
Speaker 1: comes from a you know, a ruptured family in terms
25:58
Speaker 1: of parents, divorce and contentious going on for years. Not
26:02
Speaker 1: that that's any excuse, but that's part of the motive.
26:05
Speaker 1: So well, wait, wait, please talk, Jason. Are you seriously
26:09
Speaker 1: saying because the parents slid up, because that's why they
26:14
Speaker 1: went on a murder spray, because it sounds like you
26:16
Speaker 1: just did. I'm not. I'm just saying, but that's a
26:18
Speaker 1: part of your question as to what is motive. Didn't
26:20
Speaker 1: I hear you say ruptured family? Was that not you?
26:24
Speaker 1: That must have been Jackie Howard here in the studio,
26:26
Speaker 1: because I know I heard somebody say ruptured family. Got
26:29
Speaker 1: to give me a little bit better than that. Well,
26:31
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, you're you're looking promotive. I mean, we're
26:34
Speaker 1: we're all supposing what it might be. But one's uh,
26:38
Speaker 1: you know, one's reclusive and we're calcitrons in his life.
26:41
Speaker 1: The other one is uh, you know, uh got anger
26:45
Speaker 1: issues and more dominant, as Karen Stark said, and unfortunately
26:50
Speaker 1: with horrible, uh and deadly consequences too. Dave, Oh my goodness,
26:55
Speaker 1: I'm looking at a picture right now of China Day's
26:58
Speaker 1: just oh my goodness, she's just she's just precious. She's
27:04
Speaker 1: standing with the boyfriend, Lucas Fowler. It looks like they're
27:09
Speaker 1: standing in front of the Grand Canyon. That's what it
27:11
Speaker 1: looks like these two taking off the out into the wild,
27:18
Speaker 1: the wye blue yonder to see the world, the parents
27:23
Speaker 1: pre grudgingly letting them go, and now they're dead. How
27:30
Speaker 1: in the world, Dade mac did these two punks mccloyd
27:38
Speaker 1: and Michelle Schmigelski managed to Outsmart cops for over two weeks.
27:45
Speaker 1: We don't exactly know. One of the I think was
27:48
Speaker 1: Shamelski's dad said that he had told him that he
27:51
Speaker 1: was going to be looking for a better job because
27:53
Speaker 1: the hourly pay for Walmart just wasn't cutting it, so
27:57
Speaker 1: they were going to go to a different city and
27:59
Speaker 1: try to find better jobs. What we've seen from their
28:02
Speaker 1: online gaming exploits and their basic life online is that
28:08
Speaker 1: there was a fascination with the macabre, with guns, with death,
28:14
Speaker 1: with all types of really radical things that we see
28:19
Speaker 1: in some young men this age that are disaffected by
28:22
Speaker 1: real life. Neither one of them seemed to have any direction.
28:25
Speaker 1: And again, as one of the dad who was talking
28:29
Speaker 1: the most said that, you know, he never saw it coming,
28:32
Speaker 1: and yet everything was out there, the pictures with guns,
28:36
Speaker 1: the fascination with death, it was all out there online
28:40
Speaker 1: enough that young people who were close to both of
28:43
Speaker 1: these guys had started backing away over the last couple
28:46
Speaker 1: of years and not having a lot to do with
28:48
Speaker 1: them because they were getting out there in a land
28:52
Speaker 1: of real negativity and death. So I don't know if
28:57
Speaker 1: we'll ever actually know why they did with they did.
29:12
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace to night Canadian police converging
29:18
Speaker 1: on a small town crew setting up checkpoints as heavily
29:22
Speaker 1: armed officers searched nearby woods, searching door to door for
29:25
Speaker 1: two teens turned murder suspects. It is possible that someone
29:29
Speaker 1: may not have been aware of who they were providing
29:32
Speaker 1: assistance to cam McLeod and Briars mcgowski on the run
29:35
Speaker 1: for two weeks. Smigelski's father now fears his son will
29:39
Speaker 1: end his life in a blaze of glory. He's going
29:42
Speaker 1: to be dead today or tomorrow, I knew fact. Police
29:48
Speaker 1: believe the childhood friends killed three, including American at China
29:52
Speaker 1: Diese on a road trip with Australian boyfriend at Lucas Fowler,
29:55
Speaker 1: both shot to death outside their broken down van. Police
29:59
Speaker 1: then found body of Professor Leonard Dick near a burned
30:02
Speaker 1: up pickup truck the teens had been driving they weren't
30:05
Speaker 1: spoted again until more than twelve hundred miles away. The
30:08
Speaker 1: next day, another burned vehicle more than eight hundred miles
30:11
Speaker 1: east near the town of Gillham in northern Manitoba, a
30:16
Speaker 1: town in fear with alleged killers on the loose. This morning,
30:20
Speaker 1: at approximately ten am, our SAMP officers located two male
30:24
Speaker 1: bodies in the dense brush within one kilometer from where
30:28
Speaker 1: the items were found. This is approximately eight kilometers from
30:32
Speaker 1: where the burnt vehicle was located. At this time. We
30:37
Speaker 1: believe these are the bodies of the two suspects. That's right,
30:40
Speaker 1: the so called baby faced teen serial killers who murder
30:46
Speaker 1: an American backpacker tourists aged twenty four and her boyfriend
30:50
Speaker 1: twenty three, and a sixty four year old father of
30:54
Speaker 1: two have now been found dead in the wilderness after
30:59
Speaker 1: out running and outsmarting the cops for two weeks. You know,
31:05
Speaker 1: one of the strangest things about this entire case has
31:07
Speaker 1: been the fact that these two teenagers were able to
31:11
Speaker 1: elude some of the most experienced people trackers in the world.
31:15
Speaker 1: So how is it possible for two teenagers who don't
31:18
Speaker 1: seem to have a whole lot on the ball. How
31:20
Speaker 1: could they possibly elude. Well, here's the way it really
31:24
Speaker 1: worked is probably their youth and the fact that they
31:28
Speaker 1: had energy beyond the pale. Think about it. They were
31:31
Speaker 1: traveling hundreds and hundreds of miles thousands of miles to
31:35
Speaker 1: go from one spot where they killed the young couple
31:38
Speaker 1: whose car broke down, to there was a couple hundred
31:41
Speaker 1: miles to where they then killed the professor. These are
31:44
Speaker 1: young guys eighteen nineteen years old. They're staying up for
31:46
Speaker 1: extended periods of time, they're staying alert for extended periods
31:50
Speaker 1: of time, and they're traveling, they're moving. They were able
31:53
Speaker 1: to actually confuse police. Police thought that they were getting
31:57
Speaker 1: help from somebody, that they had to be getting help.
31:59
Speaker 1: In reality, they didn't. They went into this brush. The
32:03
Speaker 1: underbrush was so thick. Experts were talking about how difficult
32:07
Speaker 1: it was to traverse, to just to hike through this
32:10
Speaker 1: area if you were actually really prepared. They had RCMP
32:14
Speaker 1: guys who were actually trained for this type of terrain
32:17
Speaker 1: and they said they couldn't cut through it very quickly,
32:20
Speaker 1: that they were having a tough time. So when you're
32:22
Speaker 1: talking about some of the most experienced outdoors searchers who
32:26
Speaker 1: are having a difficult time in this type of terrain,
32:29
Speaker 1: and you compare that to an eighteen and nineteen year
32:31
Speaker 1: old guys that don't have a lot of experience in
32:33
Speaker 1: this I think they just basically it was youth and
32:37
Speaker 1: energy that kept them on the move. Three people dead,
32:40
Speaker 1: including a gorgeous young twenty four year old girl out
32:44
Speaker 1: of South Carolina, China D's, her boyfriend, twenty three year
32:48
Speaker 1: old Lucas Fowler, and a well known botanist, a college
32:53
Speaker 1: professor father of two, Leonard Dike, all dead allegedly at
32:58
Speaker 1: the hands of the so called baby Faced killers. Take
33:02
Speaker 1: a list narrow friends at Inside Edition. Those two teenagers
33:06
Speaker 1: wanted for the brutal murder of a North Carolina woman
33:08
Speaker 1: and her boyfriend and a college professor have been found dead.
33:13
Speaker 1: The bodies of nineteen year old Cam McLeod and eighteen
33:16
Speaker 1: year old Brier sh mcgelski were discovered on the side
33:19
Speaker 1: of a river in remote Manitoba, Canada. Police have been
33:22
Speaker 1: searching for them for three weeks. Suspects in the slayings
33:26
Speaker 1: of China Diese and her boyfriend Lucas Fowler in British Columbia,
33:30
Speaker 1: job done Canadian investigators made the announcement today. At this time,
33:36
Speaker 1: we believe these are the bodies of the two suspects
33:39
Speaker 1: wanted in connection with the homicides in British Columbia. Their
33:42
Speaker 1: deaths closed the man hunt. It's not known if they
33:45
Speaker 1: took their own lives. The father, BRIERSH mcgilski, says this
33:50
Speaker 1: a normal child doesn't travel across the country killing people.
33:58
Speaker 1: Child in sharious, serious pains monies. We're gonna shoot first
34:04
Speaker 1: and ask questions. Leading leader. Basically, he's going to be
34:10
Speaker 1: dead today or tomorrow. Hey, I know fact, I want
34:16
Speaker 1: to see syl happened. Oh so sorry, could I'm going
34:29
Speaker 1: to post kill you all my stars. That's just breaking
34:32
Speaker 1: my heart. And yes, I know that's the father of
34:34
Speaker 1: one of the alleged killers. Bryce Miguel's keep it. He
34:37
Speaker 1: is still a dad and he still loves his son
34:39
Speaker 1: no matter what. Stunning and shocking end to a murder
34:46
Speaker 1: spree and the search for two so called baby faced killers.
34:53
Speaker 1: Dave Matt what's the latest? You know, Nancy, we don't
34:56
Speaker 1: know a lot of things about the bodies of the
34:59
Speaker 1: two teenagers right now, but we're learning a few things,
35:02
Speaker 1: you know. The police are being kind of guarded right
35:03
Speaker 1: now the RCMP. But right now we know that their
35:06
Speaker 1: final days in hiding in the wild were not easy
35:09
Speaker 1: at all. They were found after this two week search
35:13
Speaker 1: of the Nilson River. Their bodies were discovered about a
35:16
Speaker 1: kilometer from the banks of the Nielson River near Gillham.
35:20
Speaker 1: The teen's final meal in this insect ridden wilderness apparently
35:24
Speaker 1: was pork chops and oranges that they actually left behind
35:27
Speaker 1: their camping supplies. And that was kind of interesting because,
35:30
Speaker 1: you know, they found out that burned out RAV four.
35:33
Speaker 1: It was assumed that they had burned that out and
35:35
Speaker 1: took off. Well, once they examined the burned out RAV four,
35:37
Speaker 1: they found out that they actually left behind the camping supplies,
35:41
Speaker 1: suggesting to everybody they didn't plan on surviving out in
35:44
Speaker 1: the wild for any real length of time. Now, these
35:47
Speaker 1: are the Canadian teenagers who killed Australian Lucas Fowler and
35:50
Speaker 1: his American girlfriend China Geese, as well as we assumed
35:54
Speaker 1: the Professor Dyke. They spent their last days dying a
35:59
Speaker 1: slow and painful death in the wilderness, is what we're
36:02
Speaker 1: hearing now. The bodies of Schmigelski and McLeod were found
36:06
Speaker 1: by police about a kilometer from the banks of the
36:09
Speaker 1: Nilson River. That's just outside gillum At, where the center
36:13
Speaker 1: of this whole manhunt has been for the last couple
36:15
Speaker 1: of weeks. This three week search that stretched some five
36:19
Speaker 1: thousand kilometers across Canada. It's a longer distance than between
36:22
Speaker 1: in Australia like Sydney and Perth, which again I've mentioned before.
36:26
Speaker 1: The Australian media has been all over this and it's
36:30
Speaker 1: just been heart wrenching to watch some of the reporting.
36:33
Speaker 1: The suspects appeared to have eaten like half of their
36:36
Speaker 1: pork chops and fruit before making their way through this thick,
36:40
Speaker 1: insect ridden swampy type area toward the dangerous Nelson River.
36:45
Speaker 1: Their bodies were found about a kilometer from where police
36:48
Speaker 1: found the sleeping bag that and some other items for
36:52
Speaker 1: camping that they directly linked to the guys. It's not
36:55
Speaker 1: known how they died or how long their bodies had
36:58
Speaker 1: been there. At this point, we are finding out little
37:01
Speaker 1: by little things from some of the local reporters and
37:04
Speaker 1: some of the people in the area. Local media reporting
37:07
Speaker 1: suggesting that water contamination, anaphylectic shock, or an animal attack
37:12
Speaker 1: are all potential causes of death. Stunning and shocking end
37:18
Speaker 1: to a murder spree and the search for two so
37:23
Speaker 1: called baby Faced killers. I hate this for their parents,
37:28
Speaker 1: the two baby Faced killer parents. But what I really
37:32
Speaker 1: hate is for the children of this college. Professors, Professor Dyke,
37:42
Speaker 1: the young girl, the American girl China Das, her boyfriend
37:47
Speaker 1: Lucas Fowler. What a nightmare. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing
37:54
Speaker 1: off Goodbye friend,