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Women Leaders in Payments: The Future is Human with Marielle Mekkaoui, Payabli | Episode 512 · Leaders In Payments

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Leaders in Payments podcast, where we talk to sea level leaders from across the payments landscape.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be discussing the products and services that impact the payment space today, as well as trends and predictions for the future of payments.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: We will also hear stories from our guests about their journeys to the top.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, everyone, and welcome to this Women Leaders in Payments Month episode.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: Today I'm honored to have as our special guest Marielle Macauy, the head of marketing at payably.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, Marielle, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the show.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks so much for having me, Greg.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: All right, well, let's start with a little icebreaker.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: So if you could instantly become an expert in one non-work-related skiller hobby, what would it be and why?
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's a great question.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I had more time on my hands to pick up more hobbies.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I consider myself a foodie, but I do love trying new restaurants and I love all different cultures.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: And one of my goals in the next year is to travel more.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I would love to be like a food expert.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: I always love watching videos of people raiding and trying new foods online.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: So something like that.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: I also love wine.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: So mastering pairing them specific wines with food would be really cool.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'd also love to learn more languages.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: My father is Lebanese and he speaks Arabic and he does speak French.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's a little rusty now.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love to be able to speak more languages if I had more downtime to learn that.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's great.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's ironic because, you know, I asked this question to all of the women during the month, and I think you're the third person that has said they wish they could learn more languages.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of ironic that three people would say that the same thing.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: But you're the first one that has the foodie aspiration.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of cool.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, let's talk about your background and your career journey a little bit.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: Give us a quick snapshot of your background, maybe where you grew up, what you studied, and what led you into the world of payments.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I grew up in the Boston suburbs, New England, born and raised.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: I never strayed too far away.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: I went to college at Bryant University in Rhode Island.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: I always joked that it was my way of getting out of Massachusetts, but it was technically only a 45-minute drive away from home.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: But at Bryant, I studied marketing and communications.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: I really valued studying there.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: They had a really great program blended with classroom learning and real world experience.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then right after college, I went straight into my master's program at Northeastern in Boston.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: And my first job out of school is actually I started in e-commerce at a company called shoes.com.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: So B2C, they were later acquired.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: I was only there about a year until I realized that B2C e-commerce wasn't necessarily something that I thought was the right fit for me as a marketer.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't very inspired.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: I definitely wanted to go and find a job maybe more in the technology B2B side space and challenge, market something that was a little bit more challenging.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: So naturally, as one does, I went on the job boards and I found Blue Snap, which was another payments and fintech company based out of Boston.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: I went in there for the interview.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: This was around 2017.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: So the payments and fintech industry was honestly really starting to heat up at this time.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: But I started entry level there as a marketing coordinator and I ended up spending about six and a half years at Blue Snap.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, I always joke, I grew up there.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: I spent really my entire 20s working there.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then late in 2023 got recruited as the head of marketing at Payably, and that's the chapter that I'm in now.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: Well, was there a person or an opportunity or maybe even an unexpected moment that helped shape the direction of your career?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I can't really point it to a single person or moment.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think I've been very lucky to have a lot of great influences throughout my career.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: And even early on in my studies, I had amazing professors when I was in school and in my master's program who helped guide me.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then at Blue Snap, I had incredible managers.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: It was very close with the leadership team there.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: They all really like genuinely believed in me and gave me the opportunities to grow in my career.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: So very thankful for that.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then even the current leadership I'm under now, I, you know, am always inspired by them.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: I do have to give a lot of credit to my parents, especially my father.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he has a background in business and engineering and technology, and he's been an entrepreneur himself for a while now.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: So he's been a huge sounding board for me when I've needed validation or I felt uncertain in my career.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know the next step.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: I need career advice.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I still turn to him even today.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: He's been a really big support system for me.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd say it's been really a combination of people, not just a single person or moment.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: Well, tell us about your role today at Payably and what part of your work are you most excited about right now?
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm the head of marketing at Payably.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: I was the founding marketer.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: I like I said, I joined in January of 2024.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: I was actually higher number 40, which is crazy.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: And now we're at, I believe, 130 team members or more.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: So really started at, you know, true startup.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't have any marketing function when I joined.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, that was intimidating, but also exciting for me at the time because I knew I wanted, you know, to take the next step in my career.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: But I now oversee a small team of four direct reports, everything from events to product marketing to demand gen to brand and design.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm incredibly grateful for the small but mighty team I have here in marketing.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: I love my job because really my job is at a high level to bring our product to market, right?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: Through various marketing channels.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: B2B marketing is changing.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: We're still trying to experiment with new channels, but we're educating vertical SaaS companies on why they should partner with a payments technology, an embedded payments partner like Payably.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I truly believe that we're solving a problem that a lot of embedded payments providers aren't solving right now.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: So bridging the gap between what we call our three Ps pay in, payout, payoff.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: So payment acceptance, embedded accounts payable to payment operations, all within one unified developer-friendly API.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's all built on intelligence.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: So this helps them seamlessly embed and monetize financial services through the entire lifecycle.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm constantly learning.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm around, I'm surrounded by an incredible team, incredible leaders.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so marketing here is really fun.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: One thing that I'm really excited about right now is we're really, you know, going to market with our intelligence and our intelligent payment products.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: So that's been a really fun campaign for us.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's gonna be more news on that soon.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think just as a marketer and B2B marketer and payments in FinTech, navigating the world of AI is, again, it's a little intimidating, but it's really exciting and challenging and fun.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I love about my job.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: And second, one thing that's kind of new to me is we're leaning more into events and in-person experiences.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: I know, you know, we've been out of COVID for a while now, but post-COVID era, we really realize that in-person experiences matter.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: So we're actually planning our second annual conference this year to bring vertical SaaS leaders, industry operators, fintech folks, and investors in a room.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not going to be dry panels, it's really a place for them to connect and network with each other and learn from one another.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well, let's pivot a little bit and talk about leadership and perspective.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: And this year's theme is the future is human.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: So when you hear that phrase, what does it mean to you as a leader in payments?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think it's a really interesting theme.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's very timely, right?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: We're in this new era of AI and there's a real sense of uncertainty.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: People are wondering if, you know, AI is going to replace humans, replace jobs, or replace judgment.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: But as a leader in payments, I think at its core, payments is really fundamentally human-driven.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that that changes.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: When you think about it from a business perspective, like I said, at payably, in our world, we're targeting vertical SaaS companies in what we call need-to-pay industries.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: So money and payments need to happen for their businesses to work and their customers to have their businesses work, right?
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: So we're targeting verticals like field services, HOA and property management, ed tech, legal tech, gov tech, all of these industries that need money movement in their platforms.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: So for field services scenario, it's someone literally on a job site collecting a payment from a customer face to face.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a real human moment, right?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: And there's trust involved in that.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so just because the AI and the technology underneath it get smarter doesn't mean that the human connection goes away.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think trust is really at the heart of it.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Payments touches people's money and money is personal.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: You think about things like a dispute or a fraud concern, you know, although you want some automated tools to help you figure that out, I think at the end of the day, people don't want a black box.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: They want, you know, to rely on a human to help them understand what happened or solve the problem.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I think in an industry that's leaning hard into AI is actually the whole point.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's just the technology underneath it is getting smarter.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, payments, as you well know and you've talked about, is becoming more digital.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's becoming more embedded into software and other fintech opportunities.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: So, what do you think that leaders today need to keep front and center as this industry keeps evolving?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: When you think about embedded and intelligence, one thing that we really try to educate our software partners on and prospective clients on is that embedded and intelligent can't just be like a featured checkbox.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: It has to be really like within the system and it has to mean removing complexity for the people using the system.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think as more time goes on, like embedded payments has been around for a while now, right?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's not necessarily something new.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think more vertical SaaS companies are really understanding the true upside of embedded payments and embedded finance for their platforms and recognizing it as a growth engine.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the best version of that is that what embedded means is that the payments are invisible.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: They disappear and they're treated as a core product within the platform.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: In turn, this helps boost things like customer experience.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you're growing more volume on your platform because more customers are paying through it.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very seamless for your end merchants.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's what truly embedded means.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: I also think I talked earlier about pay in, payout, and payoffs, right?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think payments don't happen in just isolation anymore.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you're only solving for payment acceptance, you're kind of missing the other sides of payments in the full financial life cycle.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, what happens when the money flows on the vendor side, on the payable side, or are you thinking about operations?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like how are you handling risk and compliance?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think you need to really build for the whole picture.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when it comes to intelligence, the most forward-thinking providers are not bolting on AI just as a feature.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: They're really providing it as and building it into the foundation of their infrastructure.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's really the shift of reactive to proactive when it comes to embedded in intelligence together.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what is something that you have learned about leadership that you wish you understood earlier in your career?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: The first thing I would say is stay curious.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I know probably a lot of people hear that.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's not necessarily something that folks haven't heard.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think when I started in payments in fintech, I was honestly, you know, I was early on in my career, I was young.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't sure how long I was going to last.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very complex industry.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of products, there's a lot of nuances.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: I know, you know, in the payments and fintech world, we joke about every payments and fintech company has different lingo and jargon for payments terms.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I think if you stay curious and you're not afraid to ask questions, even the ones that feel, you know, the most obvious at times, it really takes you a lot further than you'd think.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Curiosity is something from like a values perspective that we at pay preach to our team members as well.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of how we operate as a company.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: The second thing I wish I understood is that leadership is not really like a one size fits all approach.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of early on in, you know, managing a team and in my leadership journey.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I would say that what I've learned so far is that a certain style or what motivates one person might not motivate the other person.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: So you can't treat leadership as a single playbook or a one size fits all approach.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then lastly, I would say don't be afraid of change.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think early in my career, change scared me.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: And when the industry was changing or when products were changing, it would scare me and it would feel like there was a lot of hesitancy around that.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I think as you grow, especially in payments in fintech, the industry naturally, it's it's moving fast.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: There's companies popping up left and right that are building new things.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: So you kind of just have to embrace change.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: So let's talk about, we mentioned this earlier, but let's go back and talk a little bit more about the human side of payments.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: You talked about this with your field services example.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: Behind every payment is an actual person or a business or a need.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do you think about the human side of payments in the work that you do?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's it goes back to the same core belief, right?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Payments is deeply human-centric.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, that's a big part of why I love marketing in this space.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's about we're big on educating and from a marketing perspective, sharing a lot of top-of-funnel content on why vertical SaaS companies should choose the right embedded payments provider and how the right technology can actually serve their business better and help grow their business.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, from my perspective as the head of marketing, it's, you know, every piece of content, every campaign, every conversation I'm a part of, it's really about education and making it as human connected as possible.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think the other side is you think about support, right?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I know a lot is happening in the AI world with AI chatbots for support, but I do genuinely believe that humans behind the support is really important still.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: And although we're building intelligent products to automate some of this for some of our partners, I think that payments still involves a lot of education.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: So educating software partners on tactics, like how they can drive their payments volume or how they can drive their adoption, maybe more technical things like revenue or economics or how they can expand their margins with payments.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's still very human-driven.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I think overall, like my role as a marketer is to make sure that human story doesn't really get lost in the technology story as the industry moves forward.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: I love that last part.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: That was very well said.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: And you've mentioned this word, trust, a couple of times.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a critical part of our industry.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it just is.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so, how do you think companies can build and maintain trust in this industry as it becomes more and more automated and technology driven?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really important point.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: I would say it kind of goes back to the education thing.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think at Payably, we do our best to make sure that, you know, we're getting on the phone with software partners, we're building that trust, we're building relationships.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think as companies and leaders in payments and fintech build more AI and intelligence, it's really important to share how that's being built.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's important to ask questions and make sure that the companies that you're working with, you can really, you know, they can point you to all the right information when you need that and early on build that trust.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's really like what I would say.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: And again, it goes back to the education piece, just making sure people feel like they have the education and materials in hand to really trust you helping their business.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what is one trend or change in payments that you believe will have the biggest impact on people or businesses over the next few years?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: My answer might be a little obvious.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think obviously it's AI.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're gonna see a lot of innovative products and features and payments in fintech that we've never seen before with AI.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think AI is gonna make payments faster, smarter, more efficient.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think agentic commerce intrigues me a lot.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people are talking about agentic commerce.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's consumers letting their AI agents shop and pay on their behalf, which is really interesting.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that shifts really the whole model of what commerce used to be.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: While there has been a lot of innovation, I think that's a huge step above.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think the flip side is we need to pay attention to is all AI built the same way?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: How are companies building AI?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a real difference between a company that bolts on AI features versus a company that is layering AI or building AI at the foundation of their infrastructure.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: So think about how the AI is trained and ask questions about that.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the diligence really matters now because there's a lot of, you know, you think about security and all of that as well, but making sure that there's somewhat of a human in the loop as well, I think is important with, you know, how we're going to be headed in the next few years.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, let's talk about mentorship and impact.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: So who's influenced you along the way, whether it was directly or indirectly, and what did you learn from them?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think it goes back to sort of what I said earlier.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think there's like a single person or moment.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: I have to give a lot of credit to like my former managers.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: They believed in me and and really pushed me to take on new opportunities, whether that was like a stretch assignment or a project or doing things like public speaking.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think I give a lot of credit to everyone I've worked with along the way that was either a manager or a colleague.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very inspired by, you know, my current leaders that I work with at Payably.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: We're all really like in the trenches every day together.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, they inspire me to kind of keep going.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then, like I said, my dad, I talk to him all the time about work and and career and stuff.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I think he's had a huge influence on where I'm at.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: So, what advice would you give to the next generation of women that are entering payments in fintech?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, my biggest piece of advice is don't wait for permission to go deep.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think payments in fintech can feel like a small niche industry.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone somewhat knows each other.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's easy to sort of hang back and assume that you'll pick it up eventually.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: I would say lean into the complexity early on.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Don't be afraid to ask questions.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said earlier, stay curious.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then find the people that you think will be good mentors early on and peers, whoever it is, whether it's existing colleagues or, you know, former professors that can help kind of guide you in the right direction.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: Industry is smaller and more relationship driven than people think it is.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so keeping those connections close to you is really important and will matter for sort of the rest of your career in payments and fintech.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so just kind of a quick follow-up on that, and I love the phrase lean into the complexity.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: So when you say that, like what would you suggest someone does?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we've got a lot of trade shows to go to, there's a lot of content out there, but what would you like tactically tell someone to do?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm in marketing, right?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not a technical payments person.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: And there have been many times in my career where, you know, I'm at a trade show and someone comes up and asks me about a technical part of the payments product that we sell.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I want to be equipped to answer that at least a little bit and then point them in the right direction to maybe a more technical person on my team.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, you know, if you're in an office or, you know, I'm in personally in a remote setting, is maybe sit in on more product meetings or slack the engineering team or talk, you know, make friends with people on the technical side.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's how I would say lean into the complexity.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm lucky to have a really awesome product marketer on my team.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: And she even sometimes educates me on what she's hearing from the engineering and product team.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: So don't be afraid to like enter yourself into that side of things, no matter what side of the org that you're on.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: I love that answer.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: So let's wrap up the show with maybe one final kind of fun question.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: So, what is one app or podcast or book or maybe favorite TV show or hobby or maybe favorite way to unwind that would give us a glimpse into who you are outside of work?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great question.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mentioned earlier I love going out and trying new restaurants.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not a very picky eater, so I'll basically eat any type of cuisine.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a very social person, so I love hosting my friends, hanging out with my friends, having them over.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: And when I can find uh artists that I love that come into town, I love going to concerts and seeing live music.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually going to a concert tonight, and I have another concert planned on my birthday weekend next month.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: So really excited and looking forward to that, especially in the nice summer weather in Boston.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, I think that's a great way to wrap up the show.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I know your time is very valuable.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much for being here today and being on the show.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: And to all your listeners out there, I thank you for your time as well.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: And until the next story.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining us this week on the Leaders in Payments Podcast.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure you visit our website at leadersandpayments.com, where you can subscribe to the show and where you'll find our show notes.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: If you enjoyed listening, please share on your social channels as well.