Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1121 - What Neurodivergent Kids Need at School With Madonna King & Rebecca Sparrow

Transcript

#1121 - What Neurodivergent Kids Need at School With Madonna King & Rebecca Sparrow · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers, Now.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, you've got neurodivirgent kids. They don't want to go
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  Speaker 2: to school. School is hard. They feel like they're not confident,
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  Speaker 2: they feel like they get stuff wrong all the time.
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  Speaker 2: Socially things are awkward. Life is hard. Life is really
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  Speaker 2: really hard if you're on neurodiverse God. This is doctor
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  Speaker 2: Justin Colson my guests today, I'm Happy Families Podcast to
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  Speaker 2: wonderful friends too, brilliant thinkers and authors of the brand
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  Speaker 2: new book Out of the Box, a one stop guide
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  Speaker 2: to navigating neurodivergence, Madonna King and Rebecca Sparrow, authors of
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  Speaker 2: multiple books. So many things that we could talk about.
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  Speaker 2: We've got too much to discuss about the book, though,
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  Speaker 2: So can I just leave the intro there and say
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  Speaker 2: congratulations on your new book.
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  Speaker 1: Thanks, justin, thank you, justin thank you.
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  Speaker 2: Got to know when you wrote this book about raising
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  Speaker 2: neurodivergent kids, what stood out to you more than anything?
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  Speaker 2: I'll start with you, Madonna.
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  Speaker 1: I think so many things. The thing that broke my
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  Speaker 1: heart though, is that we have girls, particularly going right
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  Speaker 1: through school from prep to year twelve without being diagnosed,
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  Speaker 1: because in a world where it is so important to
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  Speaker 1: fit in, particularly in social media, they learn to mask
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  Speaker 1: or camouflage their ADHD or autism to the point where
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  Speaker 1: they mimic their friends. They learn when to laugh, they
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  Speaker 1: learn what to wear rather than being themselves. And we
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  Speaker 1: say we put ourselves on the back and say, you know,
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  Speaker 1: we're creating an equal world for our daughters, Well we ain't.
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  Speaker 1: When they are graduating from school and in that year
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  Speaker 1: after school is one of the biggest times when our
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  Speaker 1: neurodivergent girls are diagnosed, because their world implodes without those
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  Speaker 1: structures at home and at school. There's many other things,
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  Speaker 1: but that was the one that made me cry.
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  Speaker 2: I really felt that as I was reading at Madonna,
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  Speaker 2: Let's go to the opposite of the spectrum Beck and
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  Speaker 2: talking about girls who are now graduating school and discovering
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  Speaker 2: that they're autistic or ADHD, you're raising neurodivergent kids much younger.
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  Speaker 2: What was it about writing this book that you found
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  Speaker 2: just stood out to you and was up in neon
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  Speaker 2: lights for you.
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  Speaker 3: Look, I think it's something that I've learnt myself justin
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  Speaker 3: over the years with my own kids and it certainly
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  Speaker 3: came through in the research, which is and it's a
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  Speaker 3: frustration that's sometimes what kids need are the smallest adjustments,
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  Speaker 3: the smallest adjustments justin in class of movement breaks or
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  Speaker 3: instructions written up on the board or whatever it is.
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  Speaker 3: And actually those adjustments usually benefit everybody in the class.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. So it's not like it's only for
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  Speaker 2: the neurodivergent kids, right, I mean, the neurotypical kids are
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  Speaker 2: pretty happy to move their bodies and get their wiggles
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  Speaker 2: out as well.
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  Speaker 3: Absolutely, And it frustrates me. And I want to really
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  Speaker 3: stress the point that there were amazing stories about fabulous
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  Speaker 3: teachers and from teachers about the little clever things that
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  Speaker 3: they were doing that they saw not only help the
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  Speaker 3: neurodivergent child in their class, but actually all their classmates.
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  Speaker 3: But it upsets me when we heard stories of parents
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  Speaker 3: who were so frustrated having to fight for the smallest
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  Speaker 3: thing for their kids which would make a world of
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  Speaker 3: difference and then have their child feeling more comfortable going
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  Speaker 3: to school. So that broke my heart.
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  Speaker 1: But at the.
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  Speaker 3: Same time, when I did hear the positive stories from
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  Speaker 3: teachers or from parents telling us about amazing teachers. That
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  Speaker 3: was amazing.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. One of the greatest challenges for
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  Speaker 2: parents who are raising neurodivergent kids is what school does.
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  Speaker 2: Here's my hypothesis, and I know that there are going
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  Speaker 2: to be some blank spaces and some bits that have
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  Speaker 2: been missed. But tell me how this sounds for you,
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  Speaker 2: and then we'll start to feel in some blanks for
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  Speaker 2: where I'm missing. The theory or the whole parenting paradigm
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  Speaker 2: that I build all of the work that I do
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  Speaker 2: on argues that we have three basic psychological needs, and
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  Speaker 2: when we're in an environment that supports those needs, we
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  Speaker 2: feel motivated, we feel well, life is good. Those needs
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  Speaker 2: are we need to have great relationships, we need to
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  Speaker 2: feel like we're competent, capable, and we need to have
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  Speaker 2: a sense of choice in our lives. My sense is
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  Speaker 2: that for most children neurotypical or neurodiverse, when they show
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  Speaker 2: up at school, relationships can be tricky. They often feel
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  Speaker 2: incompetent anyway, and they don't have a whole lot of
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  Speaker 2: control because the school requires a standardized, structured approach. But
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  Speaker 2: when you throw in your adversity, when you throw in ADHD, autism, anxiety,
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  Speaker 2: and any other justspraxicea, dyslexia, any other neurological or even
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  Speaker 2: psychological challenges. Here, all of a sudden, relationships become even trickier.
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  Speaker 2: Kids feel increasingly incompetent, and teachers, as a result of
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  Speaker 2: children perhaps not behaving as easily as they might otherwise
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  Speaker 2: because of the challenges that they're having, teachers become more controlling.
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  Speaker 2: Now I'm not throwing shade at teachers here. It makes sense.
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  Speaker 2: They've got thirty kids to look after. If we can
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  Speaker 2: find a way to support those three basic psychological needs,
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  Speaker 2: we're going to go ninety ninety five percent of the way.
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  Speaker 2: They're helping every child fit in Madonna. What's your response.
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  Speaker 1: I would say that we need to look at the
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  Speaker 1: teachers and the school system those needs absolutely, But when
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  Speaker 1: teachers told us that their last professional development in this
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  Speaker 1: area was twenty five years ago, and it was fifteen
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  Speaker 1: minutes or someone had mentioned neurodivergence and they meant to
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  Speaker 1: look it up at some stage in the staff room,
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  Speaker 1: there are beautiful teachers who are funding their own master's
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  Speaker 1: programs to try and understand this. The emails we're getting
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  Speaker 1: from teachers to say, help us on this, we need
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  Speaker 1: to be able to address this. How can they feel competent?
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  Speaker 1: How can they have relations in class? How can they
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  Speaker 1: feel safe and secure and included at school when the
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  Speaker 1: person leading the class doesn't have the time, the resources,
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  Speaker 1: or less necessarily the training to do that. And so
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  Speaker 1: I think, you know, we can start with the kids,
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  Speaker 1: and that is really true and important and a parental
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  Speaker 1: think and help there. But we also really need to
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  Speaker 1: hate teachers into our arms and say all right, what
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  Speaker 1: can we do that will?
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  Speaker 3: You know?
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  Speaker 1: Beck said it helps everyone a rising tide, lifts or
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  Speaker 1: boats and you know those things that teachers can be
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  Speaker 1: trained to do that didn't realize, you know. So for example,
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  Speaker 1: if I hear another story about a reward chart, We've
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  Speaker 1: got stories of neurodivergent kids soiling their pants because they
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  Speaker 1: knew they couldn't do the task and therefore they would
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  Speaker 1: be held responsible by everyone. So there are some really
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  Speaker 1: basic lists of dos and don'ts. And I think South
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  Speaker 1: Australia has a Minister for autism. Why can't we actually
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  Speaker 1: in our universities and our policies and in our parliaments
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  Speaker 1: have people who understand that up to forty percent of
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  Speaker 1: our classes and neurodivergent, because that's what teachers say up
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  Speaker 1: to forty percent, and that's not even in specialist classes.
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  Speaker 1: All right now, I'm just going to climb down off
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  Speaker 1: that box and hand over to you. Beck.
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  Speaker 3: I agree with everything that you said, and I think
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  Speaker 3: it's interesting, Madonna, and you did this visit. I didn't.
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  Speaker 3: But if we look at you know, you went to
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  Speaker 3: a school on the Gold Coast that had set up
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  Speaker 3: a campus for neurodivergent children.
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  Speaker 2: Is everyone just next to the manual college? Yeah? Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: I've done some work down there, and I just I
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  Speaker 2: love what they're doing so important and they get great
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  Speaker 2: results because these kids feel so good. They feel competent,
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  Speaker 2: they feel like they've got good relationships, and they have
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  Speaker 2: a sense of control over their lives.
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  Speaker 1: But it goes to what Beck says, This doesn't cost
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  Speaker 1: money in the sense of just alerting them that there's
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  Speaker 1: a fire drill the next day, or letting them pick
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  Speaker 1: the noise of the fire drill, or allowing them to
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  Speaker 1: have breaks, or not moving every forty minutes, have the
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  Speaker 1: teacher moving, that's a big one.
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  Speaker 3: I think having the kids in the same classroom and
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  Speaker 3: the teachers. You know, certainly in primary school and being
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  Speaker 3: are high school, the teachers.
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  Speaker 1: Move yeah on to the kids, so they're lost and
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  Speaker 1: they're confused, and there's noise and Justin and I was
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  Speaker 1: at that school when they were told they could be
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  Speaker 1: picked up early that Thursday, on Easter Thursday, there was
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  Speaker 1: uproar the only time I saw it because they did
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  Speaker 1: not want to leave school early. Imagine if we could
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  Speaker 1: do that in our classes across the country. One is saying,
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  Speaker 1: but it's in my contract, I'm here till three o'clock.
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  Speaker 1: The other is saying, no, I don't want to. Can
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  Speaker 1: I stay to tell three? And you know, we talk
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  Speaker 1: about a lack of engagement, We talk about behavior. We
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  Speaker 1: need to get out from under our rock and say,
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  Speaker 1: if we have another education review into the behavior of
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  Speaker 1: our children, it's just another five million dollar wasted. When
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  Speaker 1: we know what the answer is, let's just do it.
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  Speaker 2: Beck. I wanted to come to you for a sec
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  Speaker 2: because you're literally raising kids who are living with these
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  Speaker 2: struggles on top of the work that you've done with Madonna.
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  Speaker 2: In terms of researching with this book, and I know
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  Speaker 2: that you spoke to a couple of thousand Australians, including
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  Speaker 2: experts and parents, and teachers and people who are living
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  Speaker 2: this on a day to day basis, what would you
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  Speaker 2: say to a parent who's saying, I just want my
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  Speaker 2: I taught my kids to feel good at school and
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  Speaker 2: they don't. What would the first steps be to help
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  Speaker 2: them to make progress? If they've got if they're autistic,
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  Speaker 2: maybe they've got AUDIOHD, they've got both, and maybe they've
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  Speaker 2: got a pretty challenging profile here, what are those first
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  Speaker 2: steps to just smooth the way and make things feel better?
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  Speaker 1: Question?
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  Speaker 3: Justin so, I think that what I would be saying
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  Speaker 3: is the first thing is hopefully not to see the
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  Speaker 3: school as the enemy. When parents can work in partnership
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  Speaker 3: with teachers and with schools, it is a much better
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  Speaker 3: experience for everybody. And this isn't just for neurodivergent children.
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  Speaker 3: This is for our children, all of our kids right
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  Speaker 3: across the po to work with the school in a partnership.
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  Speaker 3: And I think part of it, and what we've done
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  Speaker 3: in the book is we said, yes, we said tell
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  Speaker 3: us what tell us what teachers or schools are doing wrong. Equally,
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  Speaker 3: we said to teachers, what do you want parents to know?
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  Speaker 3: What are they doing that is hindering their own child's progress,
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  Speaker 3: So having respect for the teacher in your communication with them.
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  Speaker 3: Of course, we've got tips in the book about advocating
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  Speaker 3: for your child, So that is the first thing I
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  Speaker 3: would be saying is working with the school, having that
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  Speaker 3: good relationship. But look, I'm going to be someone who says,
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  Speaker 3: if it is not working for your child and you've
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  Speaker 3: and the school's trying, and you're trying, this is why
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  Speaker 3: we're seeing a rise in home schooling.
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  Speaker 2: Justin.
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  Speaker 3: Look, I'm in this situation right and so far my
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  Speaker 3: kid's school has been amazing. I've got one of my
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  Speaker 3: kids starting high school next year. I do not know
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  Speaker 3: how it's going to go. And the fact is, where
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  Speaker 3: am I supposed to send my child? Where he's very bright?
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  Speaker 3: But do you think he can sit down and write
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  Speaker 3: an essay? He cannot. He cannot sit down and do
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  Speaker 3: a timed essay? Justin where am I meant to see
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  Speaker 3: and him and I am one of thousands of parents
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  Speaker 3: are going you know, sometimes I think, and I'm going
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  Speaker 3: to be very general here, but with some you'rerodivergent children
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  Speaker 3: who are very bright, the schools are very happy to
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  Speaker 3: take them on when they think they're going to improve
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  Speaker 3: their naplan and their ata right, Well, if you want that,
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  Speaker 3: you better also step up with the accommodations. Okay, because
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  Speaker 3: these kids think and work differently, and we have schools
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  Speaker 3: that are still in some ways in the dark ages.
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  Speaker 3: Other aspects of society are moving forward with how we
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  Speaker 3: accommodate and work with and change things when you're a
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  Speaker 3: divergent people, except schools. There are schools who are dragging
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  Speaker 3: their feet. And so I would just say, if you
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  Speaker 3: have tried everything, if you've been working with the school
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  Speaker 3: and your child is miserable, it is not worth it,
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  Speaker 3: whether that's bullying or your child is just wilting before
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  Speaker 3: your eyes in the school environment, then maybe And look,
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  Speaker 3: that's I say that. I know it is a luxury
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  Speaker 3: to say to somebody to homeschool because not every parent
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  Speaker 3: is that in that situation. But I mean, I feel
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  Speaker 3: like there's a lot of parents out there who feel
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  Speaker 3: like I don't know what to do.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, two things on that. I want to be sensitive
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  Speaker 2: and at the same time, I want to be truthful.
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  Speaker 2: We've got kids who really struggled at school, and we
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  Speaker 2: also have u diversity in our family. And as you've spoken,
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  Speaker 2: there are two things that have come up for me.
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  Speaker 2: Number one, the willingness to work with the school is crucial.
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  Speaker 2: I just I can't emphasize what you've said there as
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  Speaker 2: the first step. That's the foundation. When I created a
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  Speaker 2: big ruckus a few years ago by talking about how
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  Speaker 2: kids shouldn't be doing homework in primary school because there's
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  Speaker 2: no research to support that, a lot of people got
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: pretty upset about it. But in the letter that we
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  Speaker 2: wrote to the teachers around this, well going back fifteen
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  Speaker 2: years now, but in the letter that I wrote to
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  Speaker 2: the teachers, the wording that I used was something along
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  Speaker 2: the lines of how much you love my kids and
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  Speaker 2: how much you care about their educational futures. I know
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  Speaker 2: that you really want to be there for them. So
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: we're on the same team here, and that's a really
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  Speaker 2: nice way to bring in. We're dealing with the challenge
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  Speaker 2: here and we'd like to see if we can problem
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  Speaker 2: solve it together. I just wanted to put some I guess,
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  Speaker 2: some flesh on the bones of your suggestion. The second
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  Speaker 2: thing that you highlighted around homeschool. We're homeschooling two of
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  Speaker 2: our kids, and it's precisely because of the reasons that
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  Speaker 2: you've mentioned Unfortunately, as much as we have tried to
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  Speaker 2: work with schools, it hasn't been working. And there are
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  Speaker 2: stories from here in Queensland, where all three of us
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  Speaker 2: are based, but also from Victoria. I haven't seen any
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  Speaker 2: from other places, although I believe that they do exist
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  Speaker 2: where there are some rules, where there is I can't
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  Speaker 2: remember what the exact term is, soft, I get the
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  Speaker 2: term wrong. Please forgive me. But if children are being
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  Speaker 2: particularly challenging, and this usually only applies to your adverse kids,
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  Speaker 2: teachers are allowed to use something that I think is
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: called is it appropriate restraint or something? And so I've
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  Speaker 2: been reading stories in the press, and in fact that
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  Speaker 2: it happened at a school here on the Sunshine Coast
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  Speaker 2: just recently, where a kid is put it in a box,
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  Speaker 2: or a kid is put into a cage, or a
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: kid is put into an enclosed space and told you're
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: not coming out until you've regulated your emotions and your
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: back down level. So we can talk about this, and
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  Speaker 2: it's these kinds of things. It's not happening a lot.
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  Speaker 2: I just want to emphasize that. And you've said wonderful
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  Speaker 2: things about so many great teachers who are as you said,
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  Speaker 2: Madonna going out of their way, spending their own money,
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  Speaker 2: doing everything that they can to support kids develop themselves
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  Speaker 2: and so on. But at the same time, as you've said, Beck,
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  Speaker 2: there are some really big challenges and home school numbers
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  Speaker 2: of skyrocketing as a result, and the bullying and then
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  Speaker 2: your adversity are two of the biggest reasons for that.
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  Speaker 2: I had to chat with Brett Campbell from YUKA on
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  Speaker 2: the podcast just recently and he said that, can I.
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  Speaker 1: Just say the tone is set from the top. It's
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  Speaker 1: not just the teachers. Our schools are marketing themselves as
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: being inclusive. So it's okay to use the banner, you've
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  Speaker 1: got to put it into practice. And one thing that's
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  Speaker 1: about in our research, it was those teachers who were
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  Speaker 1: neurodivergent or those teachers who had neurodivergent kids were just
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  Speaker 1: terrific with the whole class. So you know, why aren't
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  Speaker 1: we actually employing maybe more neurodvergent teachers or making, you know,
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  Speaker 1: providing that as a skill base that can actually connect
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  Speaker 1: with our students too. I mean, there's so many things
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  Speaker 1: we could do that don't require change, legislation or big
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: pockets of money, but that will materially help our kids.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, So I mean I felt like this conversation really
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: should go for about an hour, hour and a half. Unfortunately,
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: this is the podcast for the time for a parent
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: who are just one's answers now, and we've already sort
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: of extended our time beyond what we're supposed to. So
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: I want to wrap up with a question for you. Well, actually,
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: before I hit the question. The book is called Out
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: of the Box. It's by Madonna King and Rebecca Sparrow.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: It's available everywhere already in the second print run. It's
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: only been out for like what a week. Look at
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: you guys, go here's my question. We're moving in towards
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: the summer whole of another couple of weeks of school,
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: a handful of weeks, and the kids are off and
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: everyone's at home and hopefully relaxing and enjoying some downtime,
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: and the kids are going to feel good for it,
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: especially if we can keep them away from screens and
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: get them outside in nature and living their best lives outside.
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  Speaker 2: But in at about eight or nine or ten weeks,
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  Speaker 2: we're going to be going through, especially those of us
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  Speaker 2: with near diverse kids, we're going to be going through
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  Speaker 2: this thing where the kids saying I don't want I
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: don't want to. I don't want to. I didn't last year.
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  Speaker 2: What do I have to do it again this year?
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  Speaker 2: What if I don't like my teacher, what if I
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: don't like classmates? What if? What if? We're going to
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: be going through all of this again with our kids.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: So as we get ready to close things down for
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: the summer and recalibrate for a new year, I'd love
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: to ask each of you what do you think the
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: best things are that parents can do to guide their
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: kids into a successful twenty twenty five as they head
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: into school.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: So we've got a list in the book, but one
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: thing I would say is, if your child is starting
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: high school or starting a new school, right to the teacher.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: Develop a relationship with that classroom teacher. Get a little
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: picture of the school, a map of it, and over
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: the holidays wander around so they know we're touch shopp
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: is and a sitting area is so there is a
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: sense of routine and familiarity before they even go to school.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: But don't leave that connection till February next year. Do
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: it in the remaining weeks before school finishes. So that
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: you can talk to your child over that period about
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: what will happen next year. And then it's not a
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: huge jump to a new school. It's a transition which
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: can be really tricky.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: Beautiful, beautiful.
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: What about you, Beck, Look, I would say, certainly in
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: primary school, the things that I'd be doing between now
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: and the end of the year, I would be getting
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: the current teacher to send your child on fake errands
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: that the child doesn't know are fake, with messages to
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: go up to a teacher in the grade above, so
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: they delivering messages going up to the classrooms.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Things like that.
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: I would also be saying, and this is what we've
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: done with my kids early drop off, the what they
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: call teacher this week before school goes back. That is
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: when you talk to your school. Your child could be
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: in there every day, just half an hour, wandering around
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: in the new classroom, chatting to the teacher. It is
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: all about relationship building. So what I'm hoping is that
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: you're going to have a teacher that you go in
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: and say, listen, my child loves Taylor Swift, dinosaurs, frogs, whatever, right,
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: that's their special interest, and the great teachers out there
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: will go right. I'm onto this and they will have
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: conversation status because it is all down to that relationship
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: between a child and their teacher, and the safer our
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: neurodivergent children feel, the more that likely they will flourish.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: Just on that. There's some research that shows that kids
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: are happy at school, going back to the relationship thing,
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: essentially when they have someone to sit next to a
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: class that they like, and when they trust the teacher,
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: when they know the teacher is going to act in
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: their best interest. When we had our kids starting a
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: school a few years ago, we wrote a note to
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: the teacher, like you said, Madonna, and we just asked
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: if there were a couple of parents that we could
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: meet up with with their kids so that our children
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: could develop some relationships across the summer so they're not
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: showing up on day one completely unknown and completely lost.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: And we found that was also well. It came with
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: some challenges, but it was also useful. The name of
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: the book is out of the Box, a one stop
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: guide and navigating neurodivergence. The authors of Madonna King and
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: Rebecca Sparrow there two of my wonderful friends, and I'm
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: so grateful for the work that they do and the
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: way that they're supporting families who are dealing with these challenges.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: Madonna Beck, thanks so much, just I wish we could
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: talk for hours. This is so valuable. Thanks and all
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: the best with the book. I think it'll make a
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: great Christmas gift under the tree for somebody if you
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: haven't grabbed it already, All set for next year. If
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: you'd like more info, we'll link to the book in
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: our show notes. Out of the Box and one stop
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: guides navigating new road divergence. They Family Podcast is produced
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: by Justin rolland from Bridge Media, and if you'd like
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: more r info about making your family happier, visitors at
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: happy families dot com dot au. Tomorrow, on the pod,
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: It's a Doctor's Desk episode, we're looking at a new
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: study that links low income stress parents and child behavior
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: and how better support can bring benefits all and a
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: brand new study that's just come out suggesting that the
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: negativeffects of childhood spanking may be overstated. Can't wait for
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: that one. On the Happy Families Podcast