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The Kenny Report | 2 September · The Kenny Report

0:02
Speaker 1: This is The Kenny Report. Thanks for joining me.
0:06
Speaker 2: Tonight, tax lies and the economy. How Anthony Albanese and
0:10
Speaker 2: his Treasurer are making us poorer and the economy weaker.
0:14
Speaker 2: I'll get input from the opposition and an expert economist.
0:18
Speaker 2: Climate change action, weighing up the costs against any tangible benefits.
0:23
Speaker 1: Bjorn Lomborg joins me from Europe.
0:25
Speaker 2: And speaking of climate costs, how Chris Bowen's global warming
0:29
Speaker 2: indulgences are costing taxpayers a bomb. Also, Esther Krakow in London,
0:34
Speaker 2: Tom Switzer right here, and Justin and James on legalised
0:38
Speaker 2: pill testing in the Wednesday wrangle.
0:40
Speaker 1: Let's get cracking. Let's talk about the economy, our falling standard.
0:47
Speaker 2: Of living, the way we as individuals are getting poorer
0:51
Speaker 2: under Labor and the way we're becoming a lazy and
0:53
Speaker 2: sluggish country rather than a productive and dynamic one. I
0:58
Speaker 2: spoke about this last night in some detail, highlighting some
1:01
Speaker 2: of Labor's core mistakes. and how Anthony Albanese is focused
1:05
Speaker 2: on being some kind of activist workers' hero, as if
1:09
Speaker 2: workers are being exploited by evil capitalists and as if
1:13
Speaker 2: creating more costs and impediments in the workplace can actually
1:17
Speaker 2: make us more productive as a country.
1:20
Speaker 3: Just a quick reminder, Labor will always protect your right
1:25
Speaker 3: to work from home.
1:26
Speaker 4: Happy Friday.
1:27
Speaker 3: It's now been one whole year since every worker had
1:31
Speaker 3: the right to disconnect.
1:33
Speaker 4: Enjoy your weekend.
1:36
Speaker 2: That, ladies and gentlemen, is not some hapless socialist left
1:39
Speaker 2: union activist trying to be a social media hero to
1:42
Speaker 2: his members. No, that's the Prime Minister of this country.
1:47
Speaker 1: Or both, actually.
1:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's of course both those things. They are one
1:52
Speaker 2: and the same at the moment. And our economy is
1:55
Speaker 2: showing the inevitable results. Economic growth in the June quarter
1:59
Speaker 2: was 0.4%, less than half a percentage point, And GDP
2:04
Speaker 2: per capita was flat.
2:06
Speaker 1: No growth whatsoever. Individually, we went nowhere.
2:11
Speaker 2: Productivity, the factor I focused on so heavily last night,
2:14
Speaker 2: was also flat.
2:15
Speaker 1: We made no progress.
2:18
Speaker 2: Now, productivity is simply a measure of what we produce
2:20
Speaker 2: compared to the labour that goes into it. And if
2:23
Speaker 2: we become more efficient, produce more with less, we're all
2:26
Speaker 2: better off. Companies do better, workers get real wage rises
2:30
Speaker 2: without inflation, and our country's more prosperous. So on the
2:34
Speaker 2: crucial measures, these numbers show that right now, this country
2:38
Speaker 2: is flatlining. If we were a patient, they'd be calling
2:42
Speaker 2: for a defibrillator. But listen to the Treasurer, smug as ever.
2:48
Speaker 5: This is a robust result in really challenging international circumstances.
2:53
Speaker 5: The Australian economy is robust.
2:56
Speaker 2: The only thing that's robust about this is the Treasurer's
2:59
Speaker 2: opinion of himself. Let's look at those two key indicators
3:03
Speaker 2: over the life of the Albanese government. What's happened to
3:06
Speaker 2: GDP per capita and productivity since Labor came.
3:10
Speaker 1: To power in the middle of 2022?
3:12
Speaker 2: Over the past four years, our GDP per capita has
3:16
Speaker 2: fallen by half a percentage point.
3:19
Speaker 1: No wonder we feel worse off.
3:22
Speaker 2: And our productivity over the same period has fallen 4.5%.
3:27
Speaker 2: So we've become poorer as individuals under Labor.
3:30
Speaker 1: In four years, we've gone.
3:33
Speaker 2: Backwards and our productivity has fallen sharply. We are producing
3:38
Speaker 2: less per hour worked. Our relative output has fallen. That's
3:43
Speaker 2: important for more trouble in the future. Governments are elected
3:48
Speaker 2: to improve our lot. Labor has done the opposite. It's
3:52
Speaker 2: pushed energy prices sky high after promising to reduce them.
3:56
Speaker 2: It's made us poorer and less productive. All it does
4:00
Speaker 2: is break promises, impose taxes on investment, grant more rights
4:05
Speaker 2: to workers, usually the right to work less, and it
4:08
Speaker 2: wonders why it's run the economy off the rails.
4:12
Speaker 1: Actually, that's wrong. It doesn't even wonder about that. It's
4:15
Speaker 1: in denial.
4:16
Speaker 2: And it claims that anyone looking at the facts has
4:19
Speaker 2: it in for them and the country.
4:22
Speaker 5: We know that people will try and find the worst
4:26
Speaker 5: elements of these national accounts as part of an effort
4:29
Speaker 5: to talk our economy and our country down.
4:33
Speaker 1: Good Lord.
4:34
Speaker 2: Now, all they do is spend wildly, tax heavily and
4:38
Speaker 2: hand over more power to unions. This is how you
4:41
Speaker 2: hurt an economy. They want to put government and unions
4:44
Speaker 2: at the heart of everything, exactly the way to exacerbate problems,
4:50
Speaker 2: not fix them. Take Labor's intervention in the housing market.
4:54
Speaker 2: They reckon the solution to housing prices is new taxes
4:58
Speaker 2: on housing investment and a bigger role for government.
5:02
Speaker 1: And remember what they said all this would do to prices.
5:06
Speaker 5: House prices will continue to grow, but more slowly, about 2%
5:10
Speaker 5: more slowly.
5:10
Speaker 3: House prices will continue to increase, but they'll increase at
5:15
Speaker 3: a slightly slower rate.
5:16
Speaker 5: House prices will continue to grow, but more slowly.
5:20
Speaker 2: Well, as you know, prices are tanking. The market has
5:24
Speaker 2: reacted to all this by dropping dramatically in what the
5:27
Speaker 2: Commonwealth Bank says will be a major correction of 10%
5:31
Speaker 2: or more over coming months.
5:34
Speaker 6: The housing market in Australia is inherently cyclical. We see
5:37
Speaker 6: periods of really strong house price growth that are followed
5:41
Speaker 6: by a period of housing downturn. That's happened now about
5:45
Speaker 6: four times in the last decade. And I would ask
5:47
Speaker 6: Australians to step back and take a look at the
5:50
Speaker 6: big picture here.
5:50
Speaker 7: And it was only three months ago we heard the
5:54
Speaker 7: Treasurer and the government say that housing price growth would
5:59
Speaker 7: only decrease by 2%. And now we're seeing banks calling
6:04
Speaker 7: out that this is going to be the largest price
6:06
Speaker 7: correction in the housing market in 40 years.
6:09
Speaker 8: That's not cyclical, Clare.
6:11
Speaker 1: That's not cyclical.
6:13
Speaker 2: But again, listen to the free pass the Treasurer gives himself.
6:17
Speaker 1: On all of this.
6:19
Speaker 5: House prices and auction clearance rates were already softer before
6:23
Speaker 5: the budget. And that's because, as a number of people
6:26
Speaker 5: have pointed out from outside the government, A key driver
6:30
Speaker 5: of that is interest rate movements as well as developments
6:33
Speaker 5: in the economy more broadly.
6:35
Speaker 2: Which begs the question then, if all the signs were
6:38
Speaker 2: already bad, why did he think it was a good
6:41
Speaker 2: time to impose extra taxes on housing investment?
6:46
Speaker 1: How is that going to help?
6:48
Speaker 2: I remind you that apart from economic vandalism, this was
6:51
Speaker 2: a clear breach of a central election promise. Labor doing
6:55
Speaker 2: to its credibility what it's also doing to the housing market.
6:59
Speaker 2: But let's listen to more of Chalmers because it gives
7:02
Speaker 2: us an insight into how this former political staffer who
7:05
Speaker 2: likes to call himself Doctor because he grabbed a PhD
7:09
Speaker 2: in politics by writing an ode to the political mastery
7:13
Speaker 2: of Paul Keating, let's get an insight into how Chalmers
7:16
Speaker 2: knows less about economics than Keating's big toe.
7:20
Speaker 5: We know we've got challenges in the housing market. We
7:23
Speaker 5: know the war in the Middle East is pushing up
7:25
Speaker 5: construction costs, for example. But this is a government which
7:30
Speaker 5: is doing everything it responsibly can to build more homes
7:33
Speaker 5: and to make the housing market fairer for more Australians.
7:37
Speaker 2: He gets that we have a challenge, a supply crisis really,
7:41
Speaker 2: but he blames the price increases on the Middle East war.
7:44
Speaker 1: They blame everything on that.
7:47
Speaker 2: When the real problem, of course, is construction and planning
7:50
Speaker 2: red tape, climate-driven environmental demands on housing, restrictive labour rules
7:55
Speaker 2: and costs, high taxes and charges, all exacerbated.
7:59
Speaker 1: By record immigration.
8:02
Speaker 2: And then when it comes to the solutions, Chalmers says
8:05
Speaker 2: the government can actually build more houses.
8:08
Speaker 1: No, please, you guys.
8:11
Speaker 2: The answer is to get government out of the way.
8:14
Speaker 2: Reduce government rules, regulations, red tape and charges and stop
8:20
Speaker 2: bringing in so many migrants. Let the market respond to
8:24
Speaker 2: reasonable demand with reasonable freedom. And don't hammer people with
8:29
Speaker 2: taxes for investing in housing.
8:32
Speaker 1: But I guess.
8:32
Speaker 2: Labor's union sponsors would never let them get away with
8:35
Speaker 2: any of these sensible approaches. Now, in keeping with this
8:43
Speaker 2: theme of governments doing more harm than good, consider the
8:46
Speaker 2: war on drugs, or the war on some drugs, usually
8:50
Speaker 2: the legal ones, as it turns out, while governments seem
8:53
Speaker 2: to be keen to lower the path of resistance to
8:56
Speaker 2: illegal drugs. Yesterday, we got another excise increase on legal cigarettes,
9:02
Speaker 2: their price now so prohibitive it's created a massive black
9:05
Speaker 2: market in illegal cigarettes. And in Sydney and Melbourne, we've
9:10
Speaker 2: also seen the introduction, of course, of heroin injecting rooms,
9:14
Speaker 2: where our taxes provide a facility for addicts to inject
9:18
Speaker 2: illegal drugs, although, of course, they're not allowed to smoke
9:22
Speaker 2: legal cigarettes inside these facilities. Today, the latest step forward
9:27
Speaker 2: to liberalised drug laws. After what they call successful trials
9:32
Speaker 2: of pill testing at a dozen music festivals, where, again,
9:36
Speaker 2: your taxes pay for medicos to check the safety of
9:40
Speaker 2: inherently unsafe illegal drugs, well, after these trials, the New
9:45
Speaker 2: South Wales state Labor government has decided to make these
9:48
Speaker 2: testing facilities a permanent service. They've allocated more than $ 4
9:53
Speaker 2: million to provide pill testing at up to 15 events
9:57
Speaker 2: a year.
9:58
Speaker 9: There'll be people who today say that I haven't gone
10:02
Speaker 9: far enough and there'll be people who today say I've
10:04
Speaker 9: gone way too far.
10:05
Speaker 1: I understand that.
10:06
Speaker 10: Today, based on the evidence of the trial, we're making
10:10
Speaker 10: this happen.
10:11
Speaker 9: And if we save a single young person by introducing
10:15
Speaker 9: this reform, it is going to be worth it.
10:19
Speaker 2: What about if a single extra young person dies because
10:23
Speaker 2: of this new permissive approach to dangerous drugs? How can
10:28
Speaker 2: it help if we cultivate a veneer of safety of risk-free,
10:32
Speaker 2: high-risk behaviour? Opposition leader Kelly Sloan says if she wins
10:37
Speaker 2: next year's election, the testing will go.
10:40
Speaker 11: There is no safe way to take drugs and... This
10:46
Speaker 11: decision on pill testing sends entirely the wrong message. Chris
10:50
Speaker 11: Minns and Labor have effectively raised the white flag when
10:54
Speaker 11: it comes to drugs.
10:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we've got governments that continue to crack down
10:59
Speaker 2: on cigarettes and alcohol with, say, high taxes and advertising
11:03
Speaker 2: restrictions and all of that. At the same time, they
11:06
Speaker 2: send messages of acceptance on illegal and far more dangerous drugs.
11:13
Speaker 1: What could possibly go wrong?
11:18
Speaker 2: Let's go now to the opposition federally, catch up with
11:21
Speaker 2: their shadow science and technology minister.
11:23
Speaker 1: Aaron Violi, live from Melbourne.
11:25
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Aaron. First up, I want to
11:27
Speaker 2: get your thoughts on the housing market. Labor seems to
11:31
Speaker 2: think it's a good thing that housing prices are going
11:34
Speaker 2: down and they're downplaying their promises that they would actually
11:37
Speaker 2: continue to increase.
11:40
Speaker 12: Well, Chris, great to be with you. And there's a
11:42
Speaker 12: lot of amnesia from this government. Suddenly their own budget
11:45
Speaker 12: papers don't exist and The reality is the first step
11:48
Speaker 12: when you've got a problem to fix it is to
11:51
Speaker 12: admit that you've got a problem and this government won't
11:54
Speaker 12: do that. And Claire O'Neill this morning on TV talked
11:57
Speaker 12: about the big picture. Well, the big picture for Australians
12:00
Speaker 12: is that if you own a home, it's worth less
12:02
Speaker 12: today than it was six months ago. If you're renting,
12:05
Speaker 12: your rents have gone up significantly in the last six months.
12:09
Speaker 12: And if you're trying to buy a home, it's harder
12:11
Speaker 12: than ever. And there's less first home buyers getting into
12:13
Speaker 12: the market today. Because of the changes of this government,
12:17
Speaker 12: it has been a complete disaster.
12:19
Speaker 4: And Jim Chalmers, Anthony Albanese and Claire O'Neill.
12:22
Speaker 12: We all saw and heard the spin, refused to take
12:24
Speaker 12: responsibility for their failures.
12:26
Speaker 4: And it's the Australian people that are going to pay
12:28
Speaker 4: the price, unfortunately.
12:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Labor keeps talking about how depressing prices is
12:33
Speaker 2: going to help new buyers into the market, first home
12:37
Speaker 2: buyers into the market. The problem is there's no data
12:39
Speaker 2: that suggests that's happening.
12:42
Speaker 1: Correct.
12:42
Speaker 4: Well, the opposite's happening.
12:43
Speaker 12: Less first home buyers are getting in because the reality is,
12:47
Speaker 12: and I've spoken to a lot of real estate agents,
12:49
Speaker 12: a lot of people in the market looking to get
12:51
Speaker 12: into the market, the only people that are selling at
12:54
Speaker 12: the moment are those that absolutely have to because they've
12:57
Speaker 12: unfortunately lost their job, divorced, they've had a death or
13:01
Speaker 12: they're moving for their career.
13:03
Speaker 4: They're the only people selling.
13:05
Speaker 12: Everyone else is pulling stock off the market, which means
13:07
Speaker 12: it is harder to get into the market It's had
13:09
Speaker 12: the complete opposite effect that this government was hoping for.
13:12
Speaker 12: And that's what happens when you've got a prime minister,
13:15
Speaker 12: you've got a housing minister and you've got a treasurer
13:17
Speaker 12: that have never worked a day in the private sector.
13:19
Speaker 12: They don't understand the implications of the changes that they're making.
13:23
Speaker 12: It's purely ideological and they're continuing to fail. Time for
13:27
Speaker 12: the prime minister to move on Claire O'Neill. I think
13:30
Speaker 12: she's due for a reshuffle to her third failed portfolio,
13:33
Speaker 12: failed in home affairs and now failed in housing.
13:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, the housing stuff they all own, Albanese and
13:39
Speaker 2: Chalmers in particular.
13:41
Speaker 1: What would the coalition do here?
13:42
Speaker 2: If you're re-elected, would you go back to negative gearing
13:45
Speaker 2: it being allowed for all housing investments, new and existing,
13:49
Speaker 2: and also to that 50% capital gains tax discount?
13:53
Speaker 12: The coalition have been really clear that we'll axe these
13:56
Speaker 12: toxic taxes. We'll remove them. because it's not working for
13:59
Speaker 12: the housing market. It's not working for businesses and for startups.
14:03
Speaker 12: And looking after the tech sector, there was reports today
14:07
Speaker 12: of many young entrepreneurs moving overseas to start their new
14:11
Speaker 12: tech businesses. The government have shifted away their 1.2 million
14:14
Speaker 12: tech job target because they're going to miss it. And
14:17
Speaker 12: these tax changes are a big part of that. So
14:18
Speaker 12: we're going to axe those taxes. We're also importantly going
14:21
Speaker 12: to tie migration to housing to make sure we can
14:24
Speaker 12: take demand out of the system make housing more affordable,
14:28
Speaker 12: but also invest $ 5 billion to unlock 400,000 new homes.
14:34
Speaker 12: Because ultimately, the only way we can make housing affordable
14:37
Speaker 12: for all Australians is to reduce demand and increase supply
14:41
Speaker 12: all across the country.
14:42
Speaker 4: And that's what we're focused on. We've got a plan
14:44
Speaker 4: that we know will work for the Australian people.
14:47
Speaker 2: Let's get on to something different and the climate change agenda.
14:50
Speaker 2: The Climate and Energy Minister, Chris Bowen, instead of doing
14:53
Speaker 2: anything about energy in this country is flying around the
14:56
Speaker 2: Pacific trying to drum up support for the COP meeting,
14:59
Speaker 2: which he missed out on hosting in Australia, but somehow
15:02
Speaker 2: he's going to be the president and help out Turkey,
15:04
Speaker 2: host it, and get the Pacific involved. He's got a
15:06
Speaker 2: big COP meeting happening in the Pacific. Hardly anyone's turning up, apparently.
15:11
Speaker 1: Have a listen.
15:12
Speaker 4: The people attending moves around, as you'd expect.
15:14
Speaker 12: It's not yet finalised.
15:17
Speaker 1: There are people who are saying they'd like to come,
15:18
Speaker 1: but they're finding it difficult.
15:19
Speaker 3: There's others who say they're likely to come, but can't
15:21
Speaker 3: yet completely confirm.
15:23
Speaker 2: Maybe it's a completely pointless meeting and spending a fortune
15:29
Speaker 2: and burning a lot of carbon credits flying to the
15:31
Speaker 2: Pacific doesn't actually fit in with most people's agenda.
15:36
Speaker 1: Correct, Chris.
15:37
Speaker 12: A complete waste of time, a complete waste of money,
15:40
Speaker 12: although Chris Bowen has finally hit net zero. Net zero
15:44
Speaker 12: attendees at his own conference, a complete failure. But on
15:48
Speaker 12: a more serious note and importantly, the Australian people would
15:51
Speaker 12: be staggered to hear that $ 150 million of taxpayer money
15:56
Speaker 12: is being spent on this climate conference at a beachside
16:00
Speaker 12: resort at a time when energy prices are through the roof.
16:03
Speaker 12: I was at a food bank today and they were
16:05
Speaker 12: talking to me about the biggest growth they've had in
16:08
Speaker 12: clientele is families with two incomes not being able to
16:12
Speaker 12: put food on the table. And that's the reality of
16:15
Speaker 12: Australia today under this government. But the priorities of Chris
16:18
Speaker 12: Bowen and Anthony Albanese is $ 150 million wasted.
16:22
Speaker 4: On this conference.
16:23
Speaker 12: It's an absolute disgrace and it shows so much how
16:26
Speaker 12: out of touch this government is.
16:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, and whatever you think about the issues, the meeting
16:31
Speaker 2: will be completely pointless. Of that I can guarantee you.
16:34
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Aaron. I appreciate it. Now, I
16:36
Speaker 2: want to drill down into these economic issues a bit more,
16:39
Speaker 2: and I'm joined on the desk by Professor Richard Holden
16:41
Speaker 2: from the University of New South Wales Business School.
16:43
Speaker 1: Good to talk to you again, Richard.
16:46
Speaker 2: I want to focus on two key indicators at first
16:48
Speaker 2: and get your thoughts on them. I've had a look
16:50
Speaker 2: back over the four years since Labor came in. Per capita,
16:54
Speaker 2: GDP has gone backwards by half a percentage point.
16:57
Speaker 1: So we are, as individuals, we're poorer four years in.
17:00
Speaker 2: And over that period, productivity has gone backwards by over 4%.
17:05
Speaker 1: These are really worrying signs for our economy, aren't they?
17:07
Speaker 13: They certainly are. As you say, GDP per capita is
17:11
Speaker 13: a pretty good measure of living standards, you know, how
17:14
Speaker 13: well off we are.
17:15
Speaker 14: Yep.
17:15
Speaker 13: You'd expect that to be going forward, and forward at a,
17:18
Speaker 13: you know, reasonable rate, and it's gone backwards. No wonder people...
17:22
Speaker 13: are feeling this kind of cost of living crisis. And
17:25
Speaker 13: part of the engine behind that is these terrible productivity numbers.
17:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, productivity sounds boring, but in the end, it's a
17:32
Speaker 2: key measure of whether we're making progress, whether actually... becoming
17:35
Speaker 2: more efficient and producing more as a nation. And in
17:38
Speaker 2: the end, that's the only way we can sustainably improve
17:42
Speaker 2: our standard of living.
17:43
Speaker 13: Yeah, there's this old aphorism from Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman,
17:47
Speaker 13: which basically says driving productivity growth is the only way
17:52
Speaker 13: to become wealthier.
17:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the reason we're facing inflation problems at the
17:59
Speaker 2: moment is because whatever growth there is isn't being driven by.
18:04
Speaker 1: by productivity improvements. Well, that's right.
18:06
Speaker 13: We saw in the national accounts today, not per capita,
18:09
Speaker 13: but overall, the economy grew at 2.1% per year last year.
18:14
Speaker 13: That doesn't sound great. It's not great relative to history.
18:16
Speaker 13: But according to the Reserve Bank, it's too fast. It's
18:19
Speaker 13: over the speed limit because we've got negative productivity growth,
18:22
Speaker 13: so they're probably going to have to raise interest rates
18:24
Speaker 13: later this month.
18:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was something that Michelle Bullock warned about, actually,
18:27
Speaker 2: last month.
18:28
Speaker 1: Here she is. Productivity outcomes have been weak for some
18:31
Speaker 1: time and continued weakness will constrain the economy's ability to
18:35
Speaker 1: grow without generating high inflation. Yeah, so that's the bottom
18:39
Speaker 1: line there.
18:39
Speaker 2: Even though the growth is kind of anemic, because there's
18:42
Speaker 2: no productivity growth, it's going to put more pressure on
18:46
Speaker 2: inflation and therefore the chances of an interest rate increase
18:50
Speaker 2: next month are pretty strong, right?
18:51
Speaker 4: Yeah.
18:51
Speaker 13: We're getting poorer, but interest rates are going to have
18:54
Speaker 13: to go up.
18:56
Speaker 1: It's an extraordinary situation. Now, I want to come back to....
19:00
Speaker 2: Reducing GDP per capita. This means that the country would
19:06
Speaker 2: be in recession if not for the high levels of immigration.
19:10
Speaker 13: That's exactly right.
19:12
Speaker 1: So what are the answers here? If we reduce immigration,
19:15
Speaker 1: do we fall into recession?
19:17
Speaker 2: Obviously, we have to increase productivity as well as reduce immigration.
19:21
Speaker 1: But how do we... What are the key drivers for
19:24
Speaker 1: improving productivity?
19:25
Speaker 9: Well.
19:26
Speaker 13: Some of the key drivers are trying to create more
19:30
Speaker 13: flexibility in the labour market. Now, that's the exact opposite
19:32
Speaker 13: of what this government's done over their time. But we
19:35
Speaker 13: need a more nimble labour market. We need people to
19:38
Speaker 13: be able to be matched better to employers who have
19:42
Speaker 13: the right match for their skills. We need to increase productivity,
19:47
Speaker 13: especially in the construction sector, where it's gone back over
19:50
Speaker 13: the last decade by nearly 20%. You wonder why it's
19:54
Speaker 13: so expensive to build a house, you know, in Australia.
19:59
Speaker 13: And so we need more flexibility in the economy. We
20:02
Speaker 13: need to develop skills better. That starts all the way
20:06
Speaker 13: from back-to-basics education in primary schools all the way through
20:09
Speaker 13: the university sector. We really need to drive innovation through investment.
20:13
Speaker 13: But why would you want to invest when you're looking
20:16
Speaker 13: at an economy like this?
20:17
Speaker 1: That's the problem.
20:18
Speaker 2: When businesses see a productive economy, one where productivity is increasing,
20:23
Speaker 2: then they'll invest.
20:24
Speaker 1: At the moment, investment's being scared off. To me, the
20:26
Speaker 1: key here.
20:27
Speaker 2: There are a lot of other factors, as you say,
20:28
Speaker 2: and some of the other inputs, like energy, are problematic.
20:31
Speaker 2: But the key here is the government has done everything
20:34
Speaker 2: it could over the past four years to really reduce
20:36
Speaker 2: flexibility in the labour market, to increase union power and
20:40
Speaker 2: hand over more rights to workers to either stay home
20:43
Speaker 2: or not answer the boss's call. You know, these things
20:46
Speaker 2: all sound very nice, but it all just makes it
20:48
Speaker 2: harder and more expensive to employ people.
20:50
Speaker 1: Doesn't it?
20:51
Speaker 13: It certainly does. And as you say, it's hard enough
20:54
Speaker 13: to get productivity growth at the best of the times.
20:57
Speaker 13: You don't want to be making it harder for yourself
20:59
Speaker 13: through these kind of self-inflicted wounds.
21:02
Speaker 2: Amazing stuff. Thanks for joining us, Richard. Richard Holden there
21:04
Speaker 2: from the University of New South Wales. These are worrying times.
21:07
Speaker 2: The productivity debate sounds boring, but it's the only way
21:11
Speaker 2: for any of us to actually have sustainable jobs.
21:14
Speaker 1: Improved standards of living. We'll take a break. On the
21:17
Speaker 1: other side, I'm looking forward.
21:18
Speaker 2: To catching up with Bjorn Lomborg again to talk about
21:21
Speaker 2: climate change action, weighing up the costs against any tangible benefits.
21:31
Speaker 2: When it comes to the climate and energy debate, it's
21:33
Speaker 2: always good to discuss the facts, get away from the
21:36
Speaker 2: emotion and the politics and talk about the facts.
21:39
Speaker 1: So it's always a pleasure to catch up with.
21:41
Speaker 2: Bjorn Lomborg Every now and then he joins us again.
21:43
Speaker 2: He heads up, of course, the Copenhagen Consensus Centre. He's
21:46
Speaker 2: the president there. Bjorn, thanks for joining us again. I've
21:50
Speaker 2: been following some of your writing since last time we
21:52
Speaker 2: spoke and there's a couple of issues I thought I'd
21:54
Speaker 2: run by you. One of them is we often see
21:57
Speaker 2: media stories blaming the price of foods, the increases... for
22:02
Speaker 2: the price in some foodstuffs on climate change. This doesn't
22:06
Speaker 2: really sit too well with the facts when it comes
22:10
Speaker 2: to increasing productivity from agriculture around the world.
22:15
Speaker 1: Exactly.
22:16
Speaker 15: Look, so yes, climate is a problem, but it's a
22:19
Speaker 15: fairly small one, and we can actually end up making
22:22
Speaker 15: agriculture and food prices much worse. So over the last century,
22:26
Speaker 15: we've seen food prices decline significantly, probably by 50 to 60%.
22:31
Speaker 15: That's because, yes, we got to be many more people,
22:35
Speaker 15: but we got to be even more productive. Into the future, yes,
22:40
Speaker 15: climate change is likely to make It's harder for some farmers.
22:46
Speaker 15: It's actually going to make it easier for some other
22:48
Speaker 15: farmers and also CO2 as a fertilizer, but net, it
22:52
Speaker 15: will be a slight problem. But we're talking about instead
22:56
Speaker 15: by mid-century having produced 51% more calories per year, we
23:02
Speaker 15: will only have produced 49%. So yes, it's a tiny problem.
23:07
Speaker 15: But remember, if you do something about it, for instance,
23:10
Speaker 15: if you try to go close to net zero, you
23:13
Speaker 15: will end up making tractors and all kinds of other
23:17
Speaker 15: equipment more expensive. You will end up making fertilizer much
23:20
Speaker 15: more expensive. The net impact will actually be that more
23:24
Speaker 15: people will become hungry. So again, yes, climate change is
23:28
Speaker 15: a problem. It is not by any means the most
23:32
Speaker 15: important issue that matters. It is really productivity, as I
23:35
Speaker 15: heard you talk about just before. And really, it's about innovation.
23:40
Speaker 15: We've become really good at producing food.
23:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's two points on that.
23:44
Speaker 2: One is that in the meantime, when we hear people
23:46
Speaker 2: blame price increases on climate change, we know they're either
23:50
Speaker 2: fiddling the figures, not adjusting for inflation, or they're just
23:53
Speaker 2: trying to run a climate alarmist agenda.
23:56
Speaker 1: Well, certainly, yes.
23:57
Speaker 15: I mean, New York Times famously said, told us that
24:02
Speaker 15: coffee was now more expensive than it's ever been because
24:05
Speaker 15: they forgot to adjust for inflation. Of course, it's been much,
24:09
Speaker 15: much more expensive in the past. It used to be
24:11
Speaker 15: about twice as expensive in the late 1900s as it
24:17
Speaker 15: is today in the 2000s. And that's because we've become
24:21
Speaker 15: more productive. We know how to produce stuff better, cheaper, faster,
24:26
Speaker 15: and with more stuff from every hectare. That's what we
24:29
Speaker 15: should be doing. Again, climate change is a problem, but
24:33
Speaker 15: it's a fairly minor one. And It is very easy
24:37
Speaker 15: to make policy that actually ends up making you much
24:40
Speaker 15: worse off because you're trying to attack a fairly small
24:44
Speaker 15: problem incredibly ineffectively with lots of downsides that end up
24:49
Speaker 15: meaning that you'll be worse off than you would have
24:51
Speaker 15: been had you not tried at all.
24:53
Speaker 2: And we're experiencing that in Australia at the moment, as
24:56
Speaker 2: other parts of the world are, where prime agricultural land
25:00
Speaker 2: is either being left to go to seed to chalk
25:03
Speaker 2: up carbon credits or is being laid waste by solar
25:06
Speaker 2: farms and the like.
25:08
Speaker 1: So the trade-offs there are enormous.
25:10
Speaker 2: I want to hear your thoughts, though, also on Of course,
25:12
Speaker 2: CO2 is plant food, and if there's more CO2 in
25:16
Speaker 2: the atmosphere, it helps plant growth. And we've seen a
25:20
Speaker 2: greening of the planet over recent decades. That's been measured
25:24
Speaker 2: by NASA and others. And, again, that's not to dismiss.
25:28
Speaker 2: As you say, there could be regions that get drier
25:30
Speaker 2: or they have more problems with floods or whatever.
25:33
Speaker 1: But, overall, plant.
25:36
Speaker 2: Growth is increasing in the current environment, isn't it?
25:40
Speaker 4: Oh, absolutely.
25:42
Speaker 15: There was a paper a couple of years ago in
25:44
Speaker 15: Nature that actually pointed out the three main indicators for
25:48
Speaker 15: climate change is rising sea levels, rising temperatures. You hear
25:52
Speaker 15: a lot about those two, and these are really problems
25:55
Speaker 15: with climate change and global greening. we are seeing a
25:59
Speaker 15: dramatic increase in the greening of the world. There's just
26:03
Speaker 15: simply more leaves. One-way researchers, and this is kind of
26:06
Speaker 15: incredible that they can do this, they measure the area
26:10
Speaker 15: of leaves around the entire world with satellites. And what
26:13
Speaker 15: we've seen is that the area of leaves have increased
26:17
Speaker 15: pretty much in the size of four more continents worldwide.
26:23
Speaker 15: of Australia over the last 40 years. We've just gotten much,
26:27
Speaker 15: much more plant growth. A few places have browned. The
26:31
Speaker 15: vast majority of the world has green.
26:34
Speaker 16: Now, again, yeah, there are problems with climate change, but
26:37
Speaker 16: you also need to hear the other side because you're
26:41
Speaker 16: only well-informed if you hear the whole picture.
26:44
Speaker 15: Overall, climate change is a problem, but yes, there are
26:46
Speaker 15: also good things, and global greening is obviously one of them.
26:50
Speaker 2: I always like to cross you in this location because
26:53
Speaker 2: we can literally see the CO2 being turned into oxygen
26:57
Speaker 2: in all those plants behind you.
26:59
Speaker 1: It's probably dealing with more CO2 than you're creating through
27:03
Speaker 1: this television interview.
27:04
Speaker 2: Just another one on this is we've recently.
27:08
Speaker 1: Seen a huge focus on a heatwave. in Europe.
27:11
Speaker 2: Heat waves get an enormous amount of attention, create a
27:14
Speaker 2: lot of alarm these days. And, of course, especially elderly
27:18
Speaker 2: people can die in extreme temperatures, either hot or cold.
27:23
Speaker 2: But even still, all the data shows us, doesn't it,
27:25
Speaker 2: that more people die from the cold than they do
27:28
Speaker 2: from the heat. So, overall, a warmer planet, not to
27:31
Speaker 2: downplay it, but a warmer planet actually reduces the death
27:35
Speaker 2: toll from weather.
27:37
Speaker 12: Yes.
27:38
Speaker 15: So this is one of the great examples of how
27:40
Speaker 15: we're being misled by only hearing the bad side. So
27:44
Speaker 15: first of all, heat waves are dangerous. If you're in
27:46
Speaker 15: a heat wave, you should definitely take care. You should
27:49
Speaker 15: have enough water. You should get to a place where
27:52
Speaker 15: it's cooler. And again, of course, we have technology to
27:55
Speaker 15: fix this, which is called air conditioning. It's more than
27:58
Speaker 15: a century old. And unfortunately, Europe is really bad at
28:01
Speaker 15: employing it, partly because we feel bad about its carbon footprint.
28:05
Speaker 15: But yes, Global warming will lead to more heat waves,
28:10
Speaker 15: and it is likely that we will see more people
28:12
Speaker 15: dying from heat unless we adapt to it, which we
28:15
Speaker 15: could do very easily. But we also need to remember
28:19
Speaker 15: that globally, there are many more people. So about nine
28:23
Speaker 15: times more people die from cold than die from heat.
28:27
Speaker 15: And so when you see temperatures rise, you will have
28:29
Speaker 15: more heat waves, more people dying from heat, but you
28:32
Speaker 15: will have fewer cold waves and fewer people dying from cold.
28:37
Speaker 15: Over the last two decades, this is a study in Lancet,
28:40
Speaker 15: it's the only global study that we have, it estimates
28:44
Speaker 15: that over the last 20 years, we've seen about 116,000
28:47
Speaker 15: more people die from heat. but 283,000 fewer people dying
28:55
Speaker 15: from cold. You only hearing the first story, but not
28:59
Speaker 15: the second is not left well informed. Actually, global warming,
29:03
Speaker 15: as you rightly say, right now actually saves people. Now
29:07
Speaker 15: in the future, it will be harder and there are
29:09
Speaker 15: issues out there, but the fundamental point here is to
29:12
Speaker 15: remember that if you run towards saying, oh, we got
29:16
Speaker 15: to do something about climate change, and we got to
29:18
Speaker 15: cut carbon emissions, and we got to make electricity more expensive,
29:22
Speaker 15: what you really achieved is very, very little for poor
29:26
Speaker 15: people with hot weather, even 100 years. But of course,
29:30
Speaker 15: you've made it hard for old people, as you just mentioned,
29:32
Speaker 15: to afford air conditioning right now and afford heating in
29:37
Speaker 15: the winter. So what we really need to make, sure,
29:40
Speaker 15: if you care about people dying from both heat and cold,
29:43
Speaker 15: is to make sure that you have cheap and readily
29:45
Speaker 15: available energy.
29:47
Speaker 2: So that's what I really like about your analysis, because
29:49
Speaker 2: you look at the economic impact here. Now, if we
29:52
Speaker 2: can reduce emissions without damaging our economies too.
29:56
Speaker 1: Heavily, then we should do that.
29:57
Speaker 2: But we've got to be very careful about undermining our
30:01
Speaker 2: economy because the economy is what gives us all of
30:04
Speaker 2: the education, health care and all the sophistication that extends
30:08
Speaker 2: our lives and keeps us healthy and enables us to
30:11
Speaker 2: help others.
30:11
Speaker 1: And It's about getting that balance right.
30:14
Speaker 2: I worry whether the world's getting that balance right, especially
30:18
Speaker 2: with the massive renewable energy projects and battery projects that
30:23
Speaker 2: our government and a lot of Western governments are fond of.
30:26
Speaker 1: Surely nuclear energy.
30:29
Speaker 2: Is the sensible, dense and proven technology that can underpin
30:34
Speaker 2: our economies and our societies without devastating large areas of landmass.
30:40
Speaker 15: Nuclear energy definitely should have part of the solution. Again,
30:43
Speaker 15: the problem has been that we've been very, very bad
30:46
Speaker 15: at building it the last 50 years in rich countries.
30:50
Speaker 1: They're very expensive.
30:51
Speaker 15: But that's what fourth generation nuclear promises, that it can
30:54
Speaker 15: actually build much cheaper nuclear energy, basically because it'll be
30:59
Speaker 15: approved at the factory floor and then we can just
31:01
Speaker 15: produce thousands of these instead of having these very protracted
31:06
Speaker 15: approval processes for each nuclear power plant. That has a
31:10
Speaker 15: lot of problems. But again, remember, electricity makes up about 20%
31:14
Speaker 15: of global energy consumption. And so nuclear is not just
31:19
Speaker 15: going to solve this. And the real point, as you
31:21
Speaker 15: also make, is that we need to remember if we
31:25
Speaker 15: actually wanna help people, not just with heat and cold
31:28
Speaker 15: as we talked about before, but especially the world's poorest
31:32
Speaker 15: 4 billion people who live in low and low middle
31:34
Speaker 15: income countries, they want development. Not surprisingly, they wanna live
31:38
Speaker 15: like you and me, but also this is the way
31:41
Speaker 15: to make sure that they're much more resilient to everything else.
31:44
Speaker 15: Heat and cold and bad food and bad education and
31:48
Speaker 15: lack of jobs and all these other problems that afflict.
31:51
Speaker 15: especially poor people. Development is by far the best way
31:56
Speaker 15: to help these people. And yet a lot of rich
31:59
Speaker 15: people then come down to poor countries, a little bit
32:02
Speaker 15: like the colonialist of the past, and say, no, no, no.
32:06
Speaker 15: What you need to worry about is climate change. You
32:08
Speaker 15: need to have a solar panel. And that is really terrible.
32:12
Speaker 15: That's a little bit like saying, yes, you're starving, but here,
32:15
Speaker 15: eat some solar panels. It is callous, And it's failing
32:20
Speaker 15: to recognize that the real solutions to most people's problems
32:24
Speaker 15: is development, it's getting people out of poverty, it's making
32:28
Speaker 15: sure that they get to be where you and I
32:30
Speaker 15: are and where a lot of other people in the
32:32
Speaker 15: rich world are, which is much, much better living. Not surprisingly,
32:37
Speaker 15: that's what they want. And it's also what we should
32:39
Speaker 15: be focusing on making sure that they get. So we
32:42
Speaker 15: should focus on.
32:43
Speaker 16: Solving these very simple basic problems like tuberculosis, malaria, lack
32:47
Speaker 16: of basic education, land tenure reform, these very simple things
32:52
Speaker 16: that are not all that sexy, but would do an
32:55
Speaker 16: amazing amount of good for the world.
32:57
Speaker 1: Spot on.
32:58
Speaker 2: Instead of denying them access to reliable electricity. Thanks for
33:01
Speaker 2: joining us, Bjorn. It's always a pleasure to hear from you.
33:05
Speaker 2: Bjorn Lomborg there, live from Denmark, the Copenhagen Consensus.
33:09
Speaker 1: I can remember when.
33:11
Speaker 2: There was a move to set up a branch of
33:13
Speaker 2: his Copenhagen Consensus in Australian universities, but they found it
33:17
Speaker 2: all too controversial.
33:19
Speaker 1: How pathetic. Let's take a break.
33:22
Speaker 2: On the other side, we'll check in on what's happening
33:24
Speaker 2: in the Middle East with Iran and US both launching
33:28
Speaker 2: strikes overnight. Conflict is escalating again in the Middle East
33:36
Speaker 2: after the United States and Iran launched fresh strikes. Here's
33:40
Speaker 2: the latest from News 24's Washington correspondent, Jonathan Kersley.
33:44
Speaker 14: US Central Command targeted sites in Iran... in response to
33:48
Speaker 14: attacks on ships in the Strait of Hormuz. Iran retaliated
33:51
Speaker 14: with launches towards Jordan, as it had done two days earlier,
33:54
Speaker 14: the IRGC calling it a regretful response, but Iran warned
33:58
Speaker 14: of severe punishment for the United States. Oil prices jumped again,
34:02
Speaker 14: as Iran once more threatened to shut off the Strait
34:04
Speaker 14: of Hormuz.
34:06
Speaker 2: Let's go again to Tom Switzer, columnist with The Australian. Tom,
34:10
Speaker 2: Donald Trump has again said that Iran's defeated. He keeps
34:14
Speaker 2: saying this, but conflict continues. But there are signs, of course,
34:17
Speaker 2: that Iran, especially economically, is getting to a very difficult situation.
34:22
Speaker 9: Well, Iran is not defeated, but you're quite right. I
34:24
Speaker 9: think that the US naval blockade which Donald Trump put
34:28
Speaker 9: in place in mid-April is now more formidable today than
34:32
Speaker 9: it's ever been since mid-April. And this means that Iranian
34:36
Speaker 9: tankers are just not getting through. And to the extent
34:39
Speaker 9: that continues, that is surely going to hurt the revenue
34:42
Speaker 9: stream going back to Tehran.
34:43
Speaker 2: I remember speaking a number of times to Alexander Downer
34:45
Speaker 2: on this very issue, and he focused very heavily on
34:48
Speaker 2: the blockade.
34:49
Speaker 1: He's saying this was the way to.
34:50
Speaker 2: Hurt Iran and to hurt the Revolutionary Guard too because
34:54
Speaker 2: they have such a heavy role in the economy. But
34:59
Speaker 2: what would the repercussions be as the economic pain continues
35:03
Speaker 2: in Iran?
35:03
Speaker 9: Well, the regime feels it's facing an existential threat, as
35:06
Speaker 9: I've mentioned to you before, and I think that they
35:08
Speaker 9: would only be more likely in a desperate situation to
35:11
Speaker 9: use their ballistic missiles to torment the Sunni Gulf allies
35:15
Speaker 9: across the Persian Gulf. but also play hardball in the
35:19
Speaker 9: Strait of Hormuz and stop American oil go through via
35:23
Speaker 9: American means.
35:24
Speaker 2: All right, let's bring it back to domestic politics and
35:27
Speaker 2: something we've discussed again and previously, the rise of One Nation.
35:31
Speaker 1: Took a big turn on the weekend..... with.
35:33
Speaker 2: One Nation taking a safe Labor seat in the Western
35:36
Speaker 2: Australian state by-election in Secret Harbour. Let's have a look
35:39
Speaker 2: at what Pauline Hanson had to say after this victory.
35:42
Speaker 2: She took to social media and said, the result in
35:44
Speaker 2: Secret Harbour should be a warning to Labor. We're coming
35:48
Speaker 2: for more of your seats. That's a legitimate scare for Labor,
35:51
Speaker 2: isn't it?
35:52
Speaker 1: Well, it absolutely is.
35:53
Speaker 9: And it shows that Australia is playing catch-up with what's
35:56
Speaker 9: happened in the United States 10 years ago... but also
35:59
Speaker 9: what's happening all across the European continent. I mean, if
36:02
Speaker 9: you look at France, Marine Le Pen, who's all too
36:05
Speaker 9: often denounced as a far-right extremist, she leads National Rally,
36:09
Speaker 9: she and her party are tapping into legitimate anxieties in
36:13
Speaker 9: socialist strongholds in northern France. These are areas that have
36:18
Speaker 9: been de-industrialised, a lot of miners, manufacturing workers. They're not
36:22
Speaker 9: appealing to... They're not voting for the Socialist Party or
36:25
Speaker 9: the far-left party. They're embracing Le Pen.
36:28
Speaker 1: Sounds familiar? It sure does.
36:30
Speaker 2: And I remember Georgia Maloney also being referred to so
36:33
Speaker 2: often by the ABC and others as hard right. I mean,
36:36
Speaker 2: they're really classical conservative politicians and they're disruptors. And the
36:40
Speaker 2: issues of immigration and economic decline strike hard. I find
36:45
Speaker 2: this encouraging in Secret Harbour because I'm worried about the
36:49
Speaker 2: fight between One Nation and the Coalition just leading to
36:52
Speaker 2: a fracturing of the vote on the right and leaving
36:54
Speaker 2: Labor off scot-free. But as long as both arms of
36:58
Speaker 2: it are taking seats off Labor, they can change the government.
37:02
Speaker 9: What this shows is that the old ideological labels of
37:05
Speaker 9: left and right foster simplistic divisions. They create artificial alliances.
37:10
Speaker 9: We are living in very volatile times. And it staggers
37:13
Speaker 9: belief that so many seasoned observers of Australian politics are
37:17
Speaker 9: absolutely convinced that one nation's rise is only going to
37:21
Speaker 9: hurt the coalition. It's clearly going to hurt both sides
37:23
Speaker 9: of major parties.
37:24
Speaker 1: Spot on. Thanks for joining us, Tom.
37:26
Speaker 9: Always a pleasure, Chris.
37:27
Speaker 2: Tom Switzer there. You can read his stuff in The Australian.
37:29
Speaker 2: Let's go to the UK now. And the House of
37:31
Speaker 2: Commons summer recess is drawn to an end and the
37:34
Speaker 2: newly elected UK..... newly installed UK Prime Minister Andy Burnham
37:39
Speaker 2: has faced his first grilling in the top job.
37:44
Speaker 17: The Foreign Secretary is doing everything he can to support
37:48
Speaker 17: the Nepalese government and British nationals in the region. This
37:52
Speaker 17: is what the climate crisis looks like, Mr Speaker. We
37:56
Speaker 17: have just ourselves experienced what is likely to have been
37:59
Speaker 17: the hottest summer on record. This government will meet the
38:03
Speaker 17: climate challenge and I can confirm to the House that
38:07
Speaker 17: I will attend COP31 in Turkey in November.
38:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, so he'll be there.
38:14
Speaker 2: Chris Bowen will have someone turning up, which is good
38:17
Speaker 2: for him. Joining me now is writer and broadcaster Esther Krakow,
38:21
Speaker 2: live from London.
38:23
Speaker 1: Give us your assessment, Esther. How did they perform in
38:26
Speaker 1: the house?
38:28
Speaker 18: I mean, you could see that there was no independent
38:31
Speaker 18: thoughts going on there. Andy Burnham had just basically been
38:33
Speaker 18: trussed out by his team to parrot the same lines
38:37
Speaker 18: that we would expect. He's kind of, you know, a
38:39
Speaker 18: more reputable, softer, more left-leaning Keir Starmer, which I don't
38:43
Speaker 18: really know how they managed to deduce that much.
38:47
Speaker 8: From what the polls have been showing.
38:49
Speaker 18: So the polls have been showing that right-leaning parties like
38:51
Speaker 18: Reform and the Tories are leading in the polls combined
38:54
Speaker 18: and that we're heading probably for a coalition government. And
38:58
Speaker 18: yet the Labour Party has managed to deduce that that
39:00
Speaker 18: means that the country wants to move further left. So
39:03
Speaker 18: it's quite incredible. But Andy Burnham's performance was just as expected.
39:07
Speaker 8: It was milquetoast.
39:08
Speaker 18: It was full of platitudinous nonsense. He was talking about,
39:10
Speaker 18: you know, the certainty that all these... climate-related incidents is
39:16
Speaker 18: because of climate change, so we should probably ask the
39:18
Speaker 18: sun nicely to stop whatever it's getting up to.
39:21
Speaker 8: And at risk of sounding ridiculous, we probably need to
39:25
Speaker 8: chill out.
39:26
Speaker 18: Um but andy burnham is is not going to to
39:29
Speaker 18: to make any significant changes as prime minister as we've
39:31
Speaker 18: already seen because he's not really doing anything radical he
39:34
Speaker 18: has a basically a similar minded team as kia starmer
39:37
Speaker 18: and we we know that from from what the workings
39:39
Speaker 18: of westminster he's probably going to go down the same
39:42
Speaker 18: line he's just not going to have all the scandals
39:43
Speaker 18: that kia starmer had behind.
39:44
Speaker 2: Him Yeah, honestly, this stuff about blaming the latest disasters
39:48
Speaker 2: on climate change, it always does my head in. particularly
39:51
Speaker 2: with this latest stuff in Nepal. They're trying to capitalise
39:54
Speaker 2: on what's a horrible disaster. The point is this is
39:57
Speaker 2: what happens in that environment. This is how that environment
40:00
Speaker 2: is formed, through those glacial interactions. And when you read
40:04
Speaker 2: what the local Nepalese used to do, they used to
40:08
Speaker 2: build up on the edges of the valleys, of course,
40:10
Speaker 2: to make sure they're away from these floods. But now
40:12
Speaker 2: we just build alongside the river and blame climate change
40:15
Speaker 2: when this catastrophe happens. It does my head in. And
40:18
Speaker 2: obviously the same sort of stuff coming out in the UK.
40:22
Speaker 2: But I want to get your thoughts also, Esther, on
40:24
Speaker 2: what's happening with prisoners being released, hardened criminals. I touched
40:28
Speaker 2: on this earlier in the week with Sophie Allsworth, but
40:31
Speaker 2: this is going to be bad news for Britain, obviously,
40:33
Speaker 2: but also bad news for Labor, isn't it, when they're
40:37
Speaker 2: letting hardened criminals out of prisons to make room for
40:42
Speaker 2: other felons?
40:44
Speaker 18: Yeah, I mean, it's an insult to victims of crimes
40:47
Speaker 18: in the first place that you're releasing criminals early, only
40:50
Speaker 18: a third into their sentence. But the fact that Andy
40:52
Speaker 18: Burnham lacks imagination so severely that he thinks letting prisoners
40:56
Speaker 18: out who are imprisoned on sort of IPP, which is
41:00
Speaker 18: what it's called, it's basically imprisonment for public protection, which
41:03
Speaker 18: are prisoners that are being held indefinitely for the public's protection.
41:06
Speaker 18: The fact that he thinks it's a good idea to
41:08
Speaker 18: let these hundreds of hardened criminals who have statistically been
41:11
Speaker 18: shown to have higher rates of reoffending and committing serious
41:14
Speaker 18: crimes once they're out just shows that public protection and
41:16
Speaker 18: the public safety is not high on his agenda.
41:18
Speaker 8: And it's a disgrace. It's an embarrassment. I cannot believe that, you.
41:21
Speaker 18: Know, they're talking about freeing up more money for welfare
41:23
Speaker 18: and asylum and all of these ridiculous things that the
41:25
Speaker 18: government shouldn't be spending money on.
41:27
Speaker 8: But they have no concerns for the safety of the public.
41:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's a shocking situation.
41:33
Speaker 2: And they'll be held at pay when any of these
41:35
Speaker 2: people reoffend which, tragically, seems likely. Just before we let
41:41
Speaker 2: you go, Esther, Keir Starmer's announced he's going to leave politics.
41:45
Speaker 1: That won't surprise anyone?
41:48
Speaker 8: I don't think it will.
41:49
Speaker 18: I mean, it's more surprising that we thought that he
41:51
Speaker 18: wouldn't engage in another U-turn of actually keeping to his
41:54
Speaker 18: word and saying he was going to.
41:55
Speaker 8: Stay in politics.
41:56
Speaker 18: But at the end of the day, he's a completely
41:58
Speaker 18: redundant figure. He's left in disgrace. The Labour Party have
42:01
Speaker 18: nothing to do with him now. And he's actually managed
42:04
Speaker 18: to get quite an accomplishment in being the first Labour
42:07
Speaker 18: leader that's been ousted by his own party.
42:09
Speaker 8: That was how dire his record was. So no one
42:12
Speaker 8: is surprised.
42:12
Speaker 18: And, you know, we can now start singing the eulogy
42:14
Speaker 18: of his very failed political career.
42:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll look out for him on a speaking tour
42:19
Speaker 2: to the Australian trade union movement in the future. Thanks
42:22
Speaker 2: for joining us, Esther. We'll catch you next week. We're
42:25
Speaker 2: going to get to a break. On the other side,
42:26
Speaker 2: the Wednesday wrangle. We'll check in on this pill-testing debate.
42:34
Speaker 2: Let's get into the Wednesday wrangle. Joining me on the
42:37
Speaker 2: desk is James Bolt, our News 24 Digital Supremo, and
42:41
Speaker 2: in Melbourne, author, radio host... commentator, columnist, man about town,
42:48
Speaker 2: Justin Smith.
42:49
Speaker 8: Supremo.
42:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, Supremo.
42:52
Speaker 2: Justin, when you go to a dance party, do you
42:55
Speaker 2: like to get your pills tested? Do you think that's
42:57
Speaker 2: a reasonable service to expect from taxpayers?
43:01
Speaker 19: Look, it's a toughie because I understand what they're trying
43:05
Speaker 19: to do. I understand that a lot of it is
43:07
Speaker 19: based on medical advice, but I can't help feeling that
43:11
Speaker 19: there's a bit of a cop-out here with this. And
43:13
Speaker 19: they should really be going after the organisers of these events.
43:19
Speaker 19: And if the drugs manage to get through, isn't that
43:22
Speaker 19: then something for the organisers to answer to? I know
43:26
Speaker 19: the arguments for the pill testing and who the hell
43:30
Speaker 19: wants to see any young person hurt or killed. I
43:34
Speaker 19: would also, I think that getting a little tougher on
43:38
Speaker 19: the policing of it would be good too.
43:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the problem here is, James, that you
43:43
Speaker 1: can't guarantee safety.
43:45
Speaker 2: If the pill testing was going to guarantee safety, you'd say, well,
43:48
Speaker 2: you know, it's the lesser of two evils. But if
43:51
Speaker 2: you're actually giving a green light to making people feel
43:55
Speaker 2: more comfortable about taking pills... the damage could be worse
43:58
Speaker 2: than anything that's reduced, any harm that's reduced.
44:00
Speaker 1: I'm going to have to disagree with you both.
44:01
Speaker 10: I think pill testing is an obvious one to me.
44:03
Speaker 10: I mean, there's the idea that, like, if we're sufficiently
44:06
Speaker 10: mad at drug takers, then they're not going to take
44:08
Speaker 10: drugs at music festivals. I don't think that's true. I
44:10
Speaker 10: think people are just going to take the drugs at
44:12
Speaker 10: the music festival, and if we can stop people getting
44:14
Speaker 10: killed taking it, I think that's a... I would make
44:16
Speaker 10: sure that the organisers paid for the pill testing, but
44:20
Speaker 10: I just... It's going to happen, so it has to.
44:22
Speaker 2: Why should the organisers pay for it? Why wouldn't the
44:25
Speaker 2: people getting their pills tested.
44:26
Speaker 1: Pay for it?
44:26
Speaker 10: Well, because I don't think taxpayers should be paying for
44:28
Speaker 10: something that they're not happening at.
44:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but neither should the organisers.
44:31
Speaker 2: It's the individuals who are taking pills.
44:33
Speaker 1: The organisers should be responsible for this... then they should
44:35
Speaker 1: be paying for them to be tested.
44:37
Speaker 10: I think these are private organisations, these festivals, so they
44:39
Speaker 10: need to be privately... Yeah, but they're not selling the drugs.
44:42
Speaker 10: They're not selling the drugs, but.
44:44
Speaker 2: It's the people who are taking the drugs who are
44:46
Speaker 2: buying the drugs, so if they want to get them tested,
44:48
Speaker 2: they should pay for it.
44:49
Speaker 10: I don't think taxpayers should be paying for services they're
44:51
Speaker 10: not using.
44:51
Speaker 1: Agreed.
44:52
Speaker 10: Yeah, but I think festival organisers.
44:53
Speaker 1: So why not the consumer pay for it?
44:55
Speaker 10: I think festival organisers need to be paying for this.
44:57
Speaker 2: I'm putting on a festival. I'm not saying come here
44:59
Speaker 2: and take drugs. If the individual's going to take drugs,
45:01
Speaker 2: you go to the drug testing station and you pay
45:04
Speaker 2: to get them tested.
45:04
Speaker 10: I think it should be a safety thing that if
45:06
Speaker 10: you are hosting a music festival, there does need to
45:08
Speaker 10: be pill testing and the pill testing should be paid for.
45:10
Speaker 1: By the organisers.
45:11
Speaker 2: Damn right, James. Damn right, James. You're into testing now.
45:16
Speaker 2: So I'm hosting a music event. It's my responsibility to
45:21
Speaker 2: make sure that people taking illegal drugs at my event
45:25
Speaker 2: have it tested at my expense.
45:27
Speaker 1: That is insane. Well, actually... I'm not saying take drugs.
45:30
Speaker 1: I'm just putting on some music.
45:31
Speaker 19: I think it goes back to the start here that
45:33
Speaker 19: the organisers should be held responsible for any drugs that
45:37
Speaker 19: are in there because they clearly didn't check the people
45:40
Speaker 19: enough before they got in. Look, let's be honest here.
45:44
Speaker 19: Those festivals, the rave festivals, taking drugs is a very
45:47
Speaker 19: big part of that. Now, if the organisers don't know
45:51
Speaker 19: that drugs aren't getting through the gate, well, they're stupid.
45:54
Speaker 1: I'd love to interview this mythical.
45:57
Speaker 10: Festival organiser that doesn't know that there are drugs being
45:59
Speaker 10: taken at their festival. I think everyone is on the
46:03
Speaker 10: same page about what's happening at these music festivals.
46:05
Speaker 1: Well, they should be held responsible. Why are they held
46:08
Speaker 1: responsible then?
46:10
Speaker 2: Whatever happened to personal responsibility? If I choose to take drugs,
46:15
Speaker 2: I'm responsible for that action. No-one's forcing me to take drugs.
46:19
Speaker 10: I think, look, there needs to be the health consideration.
46:22
Speaker 10: You don't want people dying at a festival. I think
46:23
Speaker 10: it's within an organiser's best interest to make sure there's
46:26
Speaker 10: no-one getting hurt at a festival or dying at a festival.
46:28
Speaker 10: I think the organisers would encourage there to be pill
46:30
Speaker 10: testing and I'm pretty sure they'd be OK paying for it.
46:33
Speaker 2: All right, but the drugs are illegal and they have
46:35
Speaker 2: a responsibility to.
46:36
Speaker 15: Stop them as well.
46:37
Speaker 1: Let me tell you this one too.
46:38
Speaker 2: It's a vexed issue, Justin.
46:40
Speaker 19: Hang on, I just want to say one last thing.
46:42
Speaker 19: What a great day for drug pushers as well because
46:45
Speaker 19: not only now are they able to keep supplying at
46:49
Speaker 19: the festivals, it has now got almost a legal tick
46:52
Speaker 19: that because there is drug testing there as well. I
46:55
Speaker 19: can't help feeling... Again, I know the argument towards the
46:58
Speaker 19: medical side of it, but I can't help feeling.
47:00
Speaker 1: We've given up.
47:00
Speaker 15: Well, exactly.
47:01
Speaker 1: That's where we started... on the policing side. That's where
47:03
Speaker 1: I started. That's where I started.
47:05
Speaker 2: And personal responsibility, it seems to be the last on
47:08
Speaker 2: the list of anything these days. Everything has to be
47:11
Speaker 2: government or someone else. Personal responsibility doesn't get a look
47:15
Speaker 2: in anywhere, and you wonder why you end up in
47:17
Speaker 2: strife on so many issues. Talking about personal responsibility, let's
47:21
Speaker 2: talk about Chris Bowen's responsibilities.
47:23
Speaker 1: He's out there spending a lot of money, James, on flash.
47:27
Speaker 2: Hotels, drumming up support for his climate dreams, but hasn't
47:30
Speaker 2: got a lot of mates wanting to turn.
47:31
Speaker 1: Up and party with him. No, he doesn't.
47:33
Speaker 10: I'm trying to think, like, what would it actually take
47:36
Speaker 10: for me to turn down a foreign junket to Fiji
47:40
Speaker 10: at a really nice resort I'm sure everything's paid for.
47:42
Speaker 10: Pill testing as well. Bill testing as well, I'd insist
47:45
Speaker 10: on that. But, like, I think we found it, which
47:48
Speaker 10: is the presence of Chris Bowen. That seems to be
47:50
Speaker 10: the biggest turn-off for any foreign policy person who wants
47:52
Speaker 10: to go on a junket and be treated well in Fiji.
47:55
Speaker 10: If Chris Bowen is there, they will not be there.
47:58
Speaker 1: You think he's scaring them away, Justin? I would.
48:02
Speaker 19: I want to see a little bang for our buck
48:04
Speaker 19: here if we're spending $ 6 million....
48:07
Speaker 1: On these rooms.
48:09
Speaker 19: You know, Fed, let's get serious here. You know, we
48:11
Speaker 19: have heard cost of living over and over again, you know,
48:14
Speaker 19: where people are tightening their belts.
48:17
Speaker 1: If by chance he.
48:18
Speaker 19: Is able to say, hey, listen, we got $ 20 million
48:21
Speaker 19: of value out of this or $ 30 million or whatever.
48:25
Speaker 1: But I don't see that happening.
48:26
Speaker 19: All I can see is the $ 6 million going out
48:28
Speaker 19: the door.
48:29
Speaker 10: I would love there to be $ 20 million of value
48:32
Speaker 10: at the climate conference giving us $ 20 million.
48:36
Speaker 2: I think the only value we get out of this
48:38
Speaker 2: is it keeps Chris Bowen out of the country for
48:40
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks. He might do less damage to
48:43
Speaker 2: our electricity grid while he's away. Thanks for joining us,
48:47
Speaker 2: Justin and James. Thanks for the wrangle. We're just about
48:49
Speaker 2: out of time. I'll share some of your feedback from...
48:51
Speaker 2: what we had to say last night about Anthony Albanese
48:54
Speaker 2: and his economic agenda. Productivity will get worse, says Sue,
48:58
Speaker 2: because no-one will take risks under this government and their taxes.
49:02
Speaker 2: We are all stuffed. And Nola says, I can't stand
49:05
Speaker 2: listening to Albo and his puppets. He lies, lies, lies
49:08
Speaker 2: and has wrecked our country. While Glenn says, who would
49:11
Speaker 2: want to work hard when we pay so much tax?
49:14
Speaker 2: Every part of our lives is taxed multiple times. Yeah,
49:17
Speaker 2: new taxes ain't going to fix anything, Albo.
49:20
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining me. Here's Peter Quedlin.