Latest / Dam Parenting / The Algorithm Isn't Your Friend Postpartum with Eva from the Joy Embassy

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The Algorithm Isn't Your Friend Postpartum with Eva from the Joy Embassy · Dam Parenting

0:00
Welcome back to Dan Parenting, and this is day three of our 12
0:03
Days of Christmas. By now, routines are wobbly,
0:06
sleep might be optional and emotions, well, big and small,
0:09
they're making themselves known. You might be travelling, or
0:12
hosting or just quietly surviving the day.
0:15
Wherever you are, the village still shows up.
0:18
Today's episode was chosen because children feel the season
0:21
deeply, even when they can't explain it.
0:24
And honestly, so do we. So for day three, we're sharing
0:28
a conversation that helps you understand what's going on
0:30
beneath the behaviour. In today's episode, we are
0:33
joined by our resident child psychologist, Fay from Care
0:36
Psychology. Around the age of four, children
0:39
begin comparing themselves to others and by 7, they noticed
0:42
differences deeply. Now this might sound well ahead
0:45
for many of you, but really this is a great conversation for all
0:48
parents to comprehend what's going on in our constantly
0:51
developing children's brains. In this episode, we talk about
0:55
resilience, how children form a sense of self, and how the
0:59
language we use as parents shapes their belief in what's
1:02
possible. If you want to support
1:04
confidence, emotional intelligence and a healthy
1:07
growth mindset, this one matters.
1:13
Hi and welcome back to another episode of Down Parenting, your
1:16
English speaking parenting podcast from Amsterdam, the
1:18
Netherlands. As always, we are your host Eva
1:21
and Marvin, and today we are delighted to be joined by Faye
1:24
from Care Psychology. Hi, Faye.
1:27
Hello, thank you for having me today.
1:29
Thank you for joining us on this episode.
1:31
We are going to be exploring how to support our children's
1:33
emotional development, build their self worth, and hopefully
1:36
foster resilience from infancy through those school years that
1:40
we're all going to be going through soon enough.
1:41
Today we're going to dive into the important topic of helping
1:44
our children manage their own emotions.
1:45
So from avoiding those common phrases like good job, you know,
1:50
that can create extreme motivation.
1:51
Instead, we want to look at nurturing those intrinsic self
1:54
worth and we're going to discuss how parents can help play a
1:57
crucial role in guiding their children through these emotional
2:00
challenges. We'll also hopefully be
2:01
exploring how families, especially those adjusting to a
2:05
new country or school, like many of our listeners here with
2:08
multicultural and international backgrounds, and how we can
2:10
support our children through these major transitions.
2:13
So let's let's get started. I don't know if I should just
2:15
immediately plunge into like a really hard question or not.
2:18
But how do children typically learn to value themselves and to
2:22
develop like that sense of self worth?
2:25
And I mean, do you even have an age range where this is going to
2:27
happen? So I think typically children
2:30
start to develop a sense of their self worth and I suppose
2:33
start to think about what what they start to compare
2:36
themselves. Hi and welcome back to another
2:41
episode of Dam Parenting, your English speaking parenting
2:43
podcast from Amsterdam, The Netherlands.
2:45
As always, we are your hosts, Eva and Marvin, and today we are
2:49
delighted to be joined by Faye from Care Psychology.
2:52
Hi, Faye. Hello, thank you for having me
2:54
today. Thank you for joining us on this
2:56
episode. We are going to be exploring how
2:58
to support our children's emotional development, build
3:01
their self worth, and hopefully foster resilience from infancy
3:04
through those school years that we're all going to be going
3:06
through soon enough. Today we're going to dive into
3:08
the important topic of helping our children manage their own
3:11
emotions. So from avoiding those common
3:13
phrases like good job, you know, that can create extreme
3:17
motivation. Instead, we want to look at
3:19
nurturing those intrinsic self worth and we're going to discuss
3:22
how parents can help play a crucial role in guiding their
3:24
children through these emotional challenges.
3:26
We'll also hopefully be exploring how families,
3:29
especially those adjusting to a new country or school, like many
3:32
of our listeners here with multicultural and international
3:35
backgrounds, and how we can support our children through
3:38
these major transitions. So let's let's get started.
3:40
I don't know if I should just immediately plunge into like a
3:43
really hard question or not. But how do children typically
3:46
learn to value themselves and to develop like that sense of self
3:50
worth? And I mean, do you even have an
3:52
age range where this is going to happen?
3:54
So I think typically children start to develop a sense of
3:57
their self worth and I suppose start to think about what, what
4:01
they start to compare themselves with others around the age of
4:04
four. And so they, they start to, to
4:06
develop a sense of themselves and who they are.
4:09
And then around the age of 7-8 that starts to become a little
4:12
bit more complex and they start to think about it a bit more
4:14
deeply. I know for example, often when
4:17
children experience something like literacy difficulties, they
4:20
often like start to compare themselves to others around the
4:22
age of 7. And that's where, again, they
4:25
pose those difficulties really, really start to be emphasized
4:28
for young people because they they do start to have that
4:30
social comparison and start to notice that.
4:36
Hi and welcome back to another episode of Damn Parenting, your
4:38
English speaking parenting podcast from Amsterdam, The
4:41
Netherlands. As always, we are your hosts,
4:43
Eva and Marvin, and today we are delighted to be joined by Faye
4:47
from Care Psychology. Hi, Faye.
4:49
Hello, thank you for having me today.
4:51
Thank you for joining us on this episode.
4:53
We're going to be exploring how to support our children's
4:55
emotional development, build their self worth, and hopefully
4:58
foster resilience from infancy through those school years that
5:02
we're all going to be going through soon enough.
5:04
Today, we're going to dive into the important topic of helping
5:06
our children manage their own emotions.
5:08
So from avoiding those common phrases like good job, you know,
5:12
that can create extreme motivation.
5:14
Instead, we want to look at nurturing those intrinsic self
5:17
worth. And we're going to discuss how
5:18
parents can help play a crucial role in guiding their children
5:21
through these emotional challenges.
5:23
We'll also hopefully be exploring how families,
5:25
especially those adjusting to a new country or school, like many
5:29
of our listeners here with multicultural and international
5:32
backgrounds, and how we can support our children through
5:34
these major transitions. So let's get started.
5:37
I don't know if I should just immediately plunge into like a
5:39
really hard question or not, but how do children typically learn
5:43
to value themselves and to develop like that sense of self
5:46
worth? And I mean, do you even have an
5:48
age range where this is going to happen?
5:50
So I think typically children start to develop a sense of
5:54
their self worth and I suppose start to think about what, what
5:57
they start to compare themselves with around the age of four.
6:01
And so they, they start to, to develop a sense of themselves
6:04
and who they are. And then around the age of 7-8
6:07
that starts to become a little bit more complex and they start
6:10
to think about it a bit more deeply.
6:12
I know for example, often when children experience something
6:15
like literacy difficulties, they often like start to compare
6:17
themselves to others around the age of 7.
6:20
And that's where again, they pose those difficulties really,
6:23
really start to be emphasized for young people because they
6:26
they do start to have that social comparison and start to
6:28
notice actually I'm starting to experience a bit for difficulty
6:31
here. What role then can the parents
6:33
and caregivers play in nurturing this from an early childhood?
6:37
Is it, does it even start in infancy or is it something that
6:40
we really can do when they're able to talk?
6:42
Well, I think in terms of really thinking about umm, developing
6:46
self esteem on confidence, One, one of the key things we need to
6:49
think about is starting to develop resilience in our young
6:52
people. So when, when they face
6:54
challenges to think about, how can we support young people to
6:57
be able to deal with those challenges that situations?
7:00
Now, as parents, we, we never really want them to come across
7:03
those challenging situations, but we, we can't control that.
7:06
And a lot of the time we're not there to help them.
7:09
So actually, as parents, the best thing that we can do is to
7:13
really support children in developing those tools and those
7:16
mechanisms to be able to respond to those challenging situations.
7:20
And one of the best things you can do that to start with is by
7:23
being a really supportive caregiver who is able to guide
7:27
and support your child when the experiences those challenges
7:30
initially to really, I suppose, be that safe base for them to be
7:34
able to explore things that might be a little bit
7:37
challenging for them or might might be a little bit tricky for
7:39
them. And then guide them through
7:41
that. In terms of thinking about, oh,
7:42
well, you found that a little bit tricky.
7:43
How could you maybe look at approaching that in a different
7:46
way? Or one of the things that
7:47
hopefully we'll talk about later is thinking about a growth
7:49
mindset and supporting children in developing a growth mindset.
7:53
So Carol Durack came up with this concept we have, we can
7:58
have either a growth mindset or a fixed mindset in relation to
8:01
challenges or earning that we come across.
8:04
And Carol Dweck suggested that if we have a fixed mindset, we
8:07
believe that intelligence is fixed.
8:09
Whereas if we have a growth mindset, it means that effort
8:13
that we put into what we do. Or I suppose if you've forgiven
8:17
a challenge, the effort we put into that then determines the
8:20
outcome that we we come across. But when we're thinking about
8:23
something like a growth mindset, it very much focuses on things
8:26
like learning and, and challenges are part of that
8:29
learning process. And actually, and we are going
8:32
to come across bumps in the road and, but it's all part of
8:35
learning and it's all part of that sense of mastery.
8:38
So actually supporting our children to know that actually
8:41
when we're learning something new, it's not completely
8:43
straightforward and we are going to have challenges, but it's all
8:46
part of that learning process is really important.
8:49
So sorry, I feel like that was quite a long a long answer.
8:52
I wanted, yeah, I wanted to jump in there for, for one point when
8:55
you talked about growth mindset and fixed mindset, is that I'm
8:58
understanding this correctly, kind of like the fixed mindset
9:01
would be, well, I'm always kind of putting the same amount of
9:05
effort in because I know I don't have any really power in the
9:10
outcome because this will be the outcome versus I can dedicate
9:14
more to it and then I can have an influence on the outcome.
9:18
Is that correct? Absolutely.
9:20
So if we believe that intelligence is stiff example
9:23
fixed, that then means that often children don't necessarily
9:27
push themselves or challenge themselves because they believe
9:29
that actually the outcome is always going to be the same.
9:32
But then what that then means is that when they come across
9:35
something new, they can be much more hesitant in how they wrote
9:38
to those tasks because actually they don't believe that the
9:40
effort they put into it would influence the output.
9:43
Whereas, for example, when you've got growth minds that it
9:46
looks at, actually the effort that I put into this will then
9:49
influence the outcome. So it means that children are
9:52
more likely to challenge themselves.
9:54
They're more likely to have more confidence in being able to
9:57
achieve at them a positive outcome come from that
10:00
situation. Because they see their self
10:02
efficiency. Yeah.
10:03
So one thing that I then want to throw in there also because we
10:07
don't know really what's an impact our communication with
10:11
our child has. But this has really now
10:13
confirmed me in in my thinking about the theory when we we want
10:18
to ask our children questions, right?
10:20
Like, so do you want to do this or do you want to do that?
10:22
But when we don't want to do this, when we want them to do
10:26
something. So the question of do you want
10:28
to put on your jacket? Now, if we want a yes, then we
10:31
should not be asking a question because every time when the
10:34
child has said the option to say no and but we're not willing to
10:37
accept the no. So we're going to do it anyway.
10:39
And I think this is then the first step of the child
10:41
learning. Well, it doesn't matter if I say
10:42
yes or no because the outcome is always the same.
10:45
Mommy is going to call him the shots.
10:46
So I just wanted to put an emphasis really back on the
10:49
importance of the communication aspect in this.
10:52
And that we do have a way, an effective way, an easy way.
10:56
I mean, it is easy. It's a simple thing in our
10:59
mindset about questioning, but the impact is so big on so many
11:03
other levels, not just in the communication, but really in
11:06
like my child knows their opinion matters and their
11:09
contribution towards the situation matters and not when
11:14
they're teenagers. They also are more inclined to
11:16
work with you because they don't have the feeling of, well, it
11:19
doesn't matter if I behave or misbehave because my parents are
11:22
always going to be angry at me or at the end of the day, they
11:25
will always then decide whatever they want.
11:28
And I mean, this leads to then problems down the road.
11:30
So thank you for bringing this up because this has really,
11:33
yeah, helped me understand also then communicating this to
11:36
others why it is so important. And it's not just because I want
11:39
it like that. And then everything.
11:41
Oh, yeah, Mahan is the crazy one because she doesn't know why,
11:43
but that's why we do it. But now really giving also the
11:46
listeners out there the background of why we are
11:50
deciding to do certain things or not certain things.
11:52
Also coming back. Eva, you mentioned this.
11:54
Good job. Why do we try to not say that?
11:56
And what do we try to say instead?
11:58
Yeah. And I think just thinking about
12:00
some of the things that you've said there, I think it's
12:02
important for young people to feel valued and for young people
12:05
to feel that, you know, their voice is heard and also that
12:09
their their contribution is also valued.
12:12
Even doing little things like helping around the house or like
12:16
my little boy is only 2 1/2, but he loves loading the dishwasher
12:19
and his job on a morning has started to become filling the
12:22
cat, the cat ballot with with biscuit.
12:24
And it's something that he absolutely loves.
12:26
And, but it's a little responsibility for him that is
12:29
really, and it gives him a sense of self worth.
12:32
It gives him a sense of responsibility every morning
12:35
that that's his little job that he does.
12:37
And little things like that can just help to support that sense
12:40
of accomplishment for children in terms of feeling like, oh,
12:43
this is my job. I, I don't necessarily always
12:45
praise him for that. But actually going back to what
12:48
you were saying before about intrinsic motivation, it helps
12:51
to support that internal motivation.
12:53
So because he gets a sense of satisfaction from doing that the
12:57
next day, he then wants to do it again because he gets that sense
13:01
of that internal motivation. So just to kind of talk through
13:05
a little bit about intrinsic and extrinsic motivation.
13:07
So intrinsic motivation is when we are motivated internally or
13:12
personally to be able to do something based on it being
13:15
rewarding for ourselves. Whereas extrinsic motivation is
13:19
when we are what? Well, when we receive external
13:22
praise or rewards or it might be doing something because we have
13:26
a fear of punishment as well. So in terms of thinking about
13:29
that intrinsic motivation, we might engage in a behaviour
13:32
because we receive an external reward or because we're worried
13:34
about a repercussion. At the same time, thinking about
13:37
that in terms of extrinsic motivation, once that reward or
13:41
that fear of punishment is taken away often then that that
13:45
behaviour is not repeated. The type of motivation that we
13:48
want to aim towards is intrinsic motivation, because with it
13:51
being an internal source of motivation then much more likely
13:55
to repeat that behaviour. And then when the praise comes
13:58
in, like, you know, the, the, the very well known good jobs
14:02
that the American Society has actually grown up with over the
14:05
last, say, 30 or 40 years, It's so natural because we're so used
14:08
to hearing it. Well, real life, if we're from
14:11
there or have family there or equally on television.
14:13
And so it becomes such a natural thing that we fill the gap if
14:17
because there's an awkward silence, you don't know what
14:19
else to say it. So it's naturally just comes in.
14:21
You say good job, but the reality is you're saying good
14:23
job for putting your glass down on the table or for just for
14:26
something so simple. And it's like they didn't do
14:29
anything. They just did what the good job
14:31
for going to the toilet. It's like, no, they know how to
14:33
go now. And you're not meant to praise
14:35
them for going to the toilet, you know, for just doing what
14:38
they're meant to be doing. You know, that was always
14:40
something that I have to keep holding my lip for to remember.
14:43
She's capable. She's able, and she doesn't need
14:46
my praise because she knows she can do this.
14:49
And I don't want to take it away, which is actually
14:51
something I wanted to bring in when you were speaking earlier.
14:53
When you're talking about the ability and the capability of
14:55
them, one thing I realized recently was the word I can't,
14:59
the frustration situation of going, I know you're capable of
15:02
this. I don't ask something I don't
15:04
think you can do, but I ask you to do something you can.
15:06
And the phrase I can't now comes up a lot.
15:09
And that's something that I think is a big struggle as well
15:12
is because we're like, well, this is like for me, the emotion
15:15
of frustration. And so the only word that they
15:18
can use is I can't. And I kind of think like, Oh, I
15:20
don't even want that vocabulary right now with you.
15:22
So I'm kind of just wondering, is there any phrases or
15:25
strategies you think we can help to to support the that element
15:30
of the emotional frustration? I also wanted to quickly jump in
15:33
because what I feel is just coming back to the good job.
15:37
The thing one aspect and I haven't even looked at the way
15:40
you look at it, Eva, which is also then very interesting
15:43
because my interpretation of why I don't use good job was always
15:48
she doesn't know then what was the good thing about it, because
15:52
when she doesn't know what led her to that result, she can't
15:56
repeat it. It might by accident happen the
15:59
same way, but in terms of if I really want to focus on the
16:04
outcome, I know now the single steps to take because those
16:08
steps have let me in the past to that result.
16:12
So instead of and when you mistake a job, then it's like,
16:14
yeah, but what exactly was it? What can I repeat next time to
16:18
get the same result? So wow, you really were so
16:21
focused on putting the glass on the table and now see nothing's
16:25
snout isn't that great. So these kind of really
16:27
identifying what exactly was it that they now learn?
16:32
So wow, now see how you push that door because you have
16:36
practiced. And that's then also when when
16:38
you come to this whole, yeah, I can't.
16:40
I also had to ask myself, how can I explain to her that she
16:43
can? Because every time I said, yeah,
16:45
good job, good job. And then she says, yeah, but now
16:47
I don't know how to do it because I never knew what the
16:50
exact steps were that I took to put on my sock or whatever it
16:54
was. So yeah, I also struggle with
16:56
that Eva. I think this couple of elements
16:59
here. So I think going back to the
17:02
kind of challenge, I would say one of the things that springs
17:05
to my mind straight, where is the power of yet of the word
17:09
yet? Because actually she might feel
17:11
like she can't do it yet, but actually over time she most
17:14
certainly will. And I think the word yet can be
17:18
really quite powerful. And I think particularly when
17:21
we're talking about developing resilience and we're talking
17:23
about developing self esteem in children, having that
17:26
expectation that, yes, you will do it at some point, but let's
17:28
work together and let's figure out ways that we can really
17:32
support you to move forward and to support you to then be able
17:35
to achieve the thing that we're hoping to achieve.
17:38
Would that be, umm, I suppose for my little boy, putting his
17:40
pants on or putting his socks down is one of the key things at
17:44
the moment. And he might not feel like he
17:45
can do it yet, but overtime he most certainly will.
17:48
And I suppose it's, it's supporting them to know that you
17:51
have faith in them that they will develop that at some point.
17:54
And I think the other element that you were talking about is
17:57
the use of praise. And I think praise has always
18:00
been a bit of a contentious 1. And, and I think looking at the
18:04
way that we use praise is incredibly important.
18:07
And I think there's always a place for praise if we all think
18:10
about how we feel when we experience praise.
18:13
I was thinking back to a lady on the bus a while ago who my
18:19
little boy was quite unsettled and I was pulling out all the
18:21
stops on this bus because I was thinking, please do not scream
18:24
really upset everyone on this bus.
18:26
So I was pulling out all the stops to try and taught him to
18:28
regulate himself and it was actually kind of stressful time.
18:32
And I got off the bus and a lady just came back to me who had
18:35
never ever met me before. And she just said you are such a
18:38
good mum, your little boy is so lucky to have you.
18:41
And the kind words from a stranger.
18:44
And it was praise but it was just so powerful.
18:46
I actually went home and cried. And Lena, was it you?
18:50
Why are you talking around yesterday?
18:53
But but in terms of the power of kind words at a moment when you
18:57
need them the most, and that praise when you need them the
19:00
most can just be so incredibly powerful.
19:02
And I think sometimes it's about timing it in a way that actually
19:07
really reinforces or supports a young person's confidence and
19:11
self esteem. And I think you touched on a
19:14
couple of things here in terms of, I suppose, ways that we give
19:17
praise that can be the most effective.
19:20
And I think essentially the right praise can lead to
19:23
positive outcomes and praise in the right way.
19:25
It gives us a lovely mood boost and it makes us, you know, good.
19:29
I mean, this doesn't isn't always applicable for everybody.
19:31
Some people can find praise quite intimidating or they can
19:35
dislike praise. But for the majority of people,
19:37
it can give that mood boost when given them the right way.
19:40
And one of the ways that we can look at this is through process
19:43
praise. So praising and recognizing hard
19:46
work. And it goes back to tight tying
19:49
into the growth mindset again in terms of I noticed you tried
19:52
really, really hard to put on your socks.
19:54
I noticed you tried really hard to draw that picture or whatever
19:58
it is that you you are, you are wanting to kind of support and
20:01
be enforced and really recognising the hard work and
20:04
then feed into developing that growth mindset.
20:07
Another form of praise that can be really quite powerful is
20:10
behaviour specific and descriptive praise.
20:12
And I know you mentioned this before in terms of highlighting
20:15
what it is that they have done well.
20:18
I, I noticed that you did so well at putting your socks on
20:21
and, but it has to be something that is challenging for them.
20:25
And one of the difficulties is and, and I think.
20:28
This, this was mentioned as well.
20:29
It's sometimes we can just give praise here, there and
20:32
everywhere. And, and actually praise is much
20:34
less effective when we praise them for things that actually
20:38
come quite easily to them. And but when we, when we use
20:41
that praise in a way to support them in things that are actually
20:44
quite challenging, that praise can feel like a boost and it can
20:47
feel really, really positive. And I think it's about balancing
20:51
that praise and not being patronizing with that praise.
20:53
And I know when I've done a lot of reading around this, one of
20:57
the things that they've said is that particularly with all the
20:59
children, using that kind of descriptive praise can at times
21:03
feel quite patronizing. So I suppose it's kind of
21:05
balancing that a little bit in terms of, I suppose, judging the
21:08
age and the development of the child and how they may
21:11
potentially respond to that praise.
21:13
But in terms of thinking about descriptive praise, something an
21:16
example of that would be, I really like the way you shared
21:18
that toy. So that's the development of the
21:21
stage that my little boy is at the moment.
21:23
And I give him a lot of very descriptive praise around that.
21:26
I really like the way that you gave them.
21:29
You have gave your friend a packet of raisins, but just
21:32
something like that really helps to reinforce that those
21:35
behaviors that we're looking at that I know he finds quite
21:37
tricky. Whereas if I praised him, say
21:39
for example, for building a tower, that's something that he
21:42
finds really, really easy to do now.
21:45
So actually that praise is going to be a lot less effective, if
21:48
that makes sense. I was just gonna say, can I
21:50
challenge you on that? Because The thing is like this
21:52
is the problem. I have a praise.
21:53
I find a lot of different people praise in different ways and I
21:56
really struggle with this as much I will praise and I have to
21:59
hold my breath from trying not to over praise.
22:01
But it's the the fact that I always still feel that even
22:04
saying I noticed, like, for example, the sharing thing, this
22:08
is a massive thing obviously for children between 2:00 and 4:00
22:11
or five. And we've been going through it
22:13
a lot. And it's a case of like saying
22:14
like, Oh, I notice you did that. Like I always feel like that's
22:17
to me extrinsic because it's me telling her, oh, I noticed this.
22:21
And then she's gonna go, Oh, I want Mama to notice it again.
22:24
And so that's my struggle when you talk about this and I'm
22:26
like, is it intrinsic? Are extrinsic?
22:29
So I always try to reword it like, oh, how does it make you
22:32
feel? You know, I The thing is, but I
22:34
don't want to keep using that same stupid phrase all the time
22:37
because I'm like, exactly like you say is if you keep over
22:39
praising it, you're basically liquidating my feeling and it's
22:42
becomes just another word and phrase and it actually doesn't
22:45
give you a sense of what it's meant to and the power that it
22:48
actually provides. So that's why I was just
22:50
wondering, is there any other ways or phrases you might be
22:52
able to give us? Because the I notice or I'm
22:56
like, I'm so proud of you, apparently.
22:58
No, no, you're not allowed to say that.
23:00
And I'm like, why? And it's like, well, that's
23:01
extrinsic. So I'm like, OK, what do I do?
23:03
And then it's like, oh, you say, how does that make you feel?
23:06
And I'm like, but that's the same question I have to keep
23:09
asking her now. I honestly think it's such a
23:11
tricky 1. And I think I don't think you
23:13
can ever avoid completely supporting them in terms of that
23:17
extrinsic motivation. And I do think there is a place
23:21
for it. And sometimes I think we've
23:23
maybe got to support through extrinsic motivation to then
23:26
support intrinsic motivation. A really lovely strategy that
23:30
I've heard. And I apologize, this kind of
23:32
doesn't necessarily fit with exactly what you said, but is
23:34
using, I suppose, praise in a certain way where you talk to
23:38
perhaps their teddy bears and they, they then overhear really
23:42
nice things about them themselves.
23:44
So something like, ah, tell you what Freddie did today.
23:47
Freddie was great at sharing his digger in the sound pit and he
23:53
did such a good job. And, and I suppose again, it is
23:56
extrinsic motivation, but it's, it's always nice to hear
23:59
positive things about yourself. And actually, I think a little
24:02
bit of extra extrinsic motivation can probably feed
24:05
into that intrinsic motivation because the more they'll want to
24:08
engage in that behaviour. But then surely over time,
24:11
particularly with sharing behaviours, naturally that
24:13
becomes self rewarding in itself.
24:15
But we could argue that that initial motivation, we might
24:19
need to give them a little bit when I might need to give them a
24:21
little helping hand with it. But then the more that they are
24:23
engaging those behaviours, the more that becomes self
24:26
motivating. Does that make sense?
24:28
It's getting there. It's just, yeah, as I said, I
24:30
just feel like maybe I'm reading too many different people and
24:33
they're kind of all on top of each other.
24:35
I honestly think there's there's probably quite a lot of
24:37
contradiction around this. Oh yes, of course.
24:40
Beliefs. And as parents, I think we've
24:43
just got to find our own balance ourselves, haven't we, in terms
24:45
of what works for us, what works for our children, Because what
24:49
works for one child might not work for another, and it might
24:52
be completely different. To jump in about and maybe also
24:55
giving you a little Peace of Mind, Eva, how I also view this
24:59
with the internal external motivation and coming back to
25:02
what you said, Faye, distinguishing, was this a task
25:05
that was easy for them and that comes natural or was it
25:09
something that we know they challenge with?
25:11
And so giving your daughter attention for sharing a toy when
25:15
you know this has been topic of discussion.
25:18
She has a hard time with this. And then addressing the moment
25:21
when it did happen or you know this, it comes easy to her.
25:25
So I guess there will be then situations in her character like
25:28
really distinguishing when like what is her character and how
25:32
can we build up those character traits?
25:33
Because also for us, I mean, I as an adult have areas where I
25:38
need so much extrinsic motivation because I don't care
25:41
about this topic. It doesn't interest me.
25:43
I don't have any intrinsic motivation when I do my taxes.
25:46
I'm sorry, like I have to extrinsic motivation for that.
25:50
ADHD like yeah, there's no dopamine in anything so.
25:54
But when I, I have to go networking now, I love it.
25:57
So I don't need any from the outside telling me, oh, how
26:00
great it is or what an impacted blah, blah, blah.
26:02
No, I love doing it. So I don't need.
26:04
So also I'm allowing myself these fields of I'm comfort with
26:08
certain topics or comfort or interest with certain areas.
26:11
So I think this is also what we can learn that this is also for
26:15
our children. This is their character.
26:16
So what is their personality? And so maybe it helps you then
26:21
to to really see, OK, is this something where she needs that
26:25
because she has a little space to grow into that more or it is
26:29
easier for her? Because I know for my daughter,
26:31
sharing is very hard, but then going to talk to other people is
26:35
not so hard for her because that's just her character.
26:38
So I really try to see, like you said, it's not just building the
26:41
block, but it's also the the social interactions and those
26:44
kind of things. It's also important, I suppose,
26:47
when we set boundaries as parents to reinforce those
26:50
boundaries as well in terms of so for example, supporting them
26:54
to develop the skills and sharing and turn taking to
26:56
provide that feedback. And actually you're doing a
26:59
great job in sharing. And actually then as opposed to
27:02
developing those skills in terms of knowing, well, actually
27:05
that's how I share. And that reinforcement is
27:07
actually really important and it might be technically classed as
27:10
extrinsic motivation. But also at the same time, what
27:13
we want to kind of steer away from is that always being those
27:16
negative interactions. So constantly saying don't do
27:19
that or don't do this. And actually you want to, I
27:22
suppose to provide that reinforcement around actually,
27:24
yes, that this is what we want to see.
27:26
Because often when we are guiding to around that we can be
27:29
like, Oh no, don't do that. Don't take that toy, don't.
27:32
But actually we want to kind of reframe that a little bit and
27:34
really think about, well, actually what what do we want to
27:36
see? So providing that feedback
27:38
around that can be really important.
27:40
What you're saying reminds me of someone that said basically
27:42
every time you use the word don't do whatever, all the kids
27:45
here is just you repeating the same thing.
27:47
So they just keep hearing it because they don't really
27:49
comprehend the don't element of things.
27:51
So they're like, don't throw the food on the floor and they're
27:54
going to be like, OK, throw the food on the floor because
27:56
they're not understanding that whole concept of don't, there's
27:58
no point of doing it, but just use the words of what they
28:01
should be doing. So it's always that.
28:02
But again, for anyone listening, it's really hard when it's the
28:05
breakfast time and you might have slept in or you've got like
28:09
3 kids running around. The dog is trying to eat your
28:11
kids breakfast muffin and it's just you're freaking out and
28:14
you're just trying to use the correct words.
28:16
And this is the problem is, is trying to remember and trying to
28:19
stop yourself before you go into that element of don't, don't,
28:23
don't. It's a very, yeah, it's a very
28:25
fine line that is so easily that you just jump across already at
28:29
7:05. Absolutely.
28:30
And we're all human and we've all got our own tolerances as
28:35
well. And like, we might have had a
28:36
terrible night's sleep. You might be feeling stressed
28:38
about a meeting that's coming up.
28:40
And actually we all have situations where we respond,
28:43
we've responded to our children where afterwards we think, oh, I
28:46
could have dealt with that so much better.
28:47
I think what we're saying here is it's about overtime as much
28:51
as we can, kind of reprogramming the way that we respond as much
28:54
as possible. We're not always going to get it
28:56
right. 100%, nobody 100% ever gets it right, but I suppose we
29:01
reprogramming the way that we respond as much as we we can and
29:04
I suppose reframing it. And it reminds me of a concept
29:07
called mentalization by Peter Fonagy.
29:11
And what he suggests is our interpretation of our children's
29:15
behaviours can have a huge impact on how we respond.
29:19
So say for example, our child behaves in a certain way, we can
29:24
perhaps perceive that that was quite a playful way for them to
29:28
bond or they're being a little bit cheeky.
29:30
But if our perception is that it was a positive thing, we're much
29:34
more likely to respond in a positive way to them.
29:36
Whereas if our perception is that they're being defiant or
29:40
they're, they're, they did that to frustrate me or annoy me and
29:45
our perception of that is quite negative, then actually what
29:48
then happens is that our response can then be more
29:51
negative. And I suppose it's again about
29:53
shifting that mindset that we have about our children and how
29:57
they're responding and how can we really understand why they're
30:01
engaging in a specific behavior? And can we see it as more
30:04
positive or can we reshape it in a certain way?
30:06
And again, when you're in the thick of it and you know, when
30:09
you're stressed and there's lots of things going on, it's not
30:12
always possible. But as much as we can, if it can
30:15
try and kind of shift that perspective and think about
30:17
things in a more positive way, can that then support us to
30:20
respond in a more positive way to?
30:22
Yeah, it's all about compromise. You know, if you really want to
30:25
have kids and you have the children at three or four or
30:27
five or six years old and they're getting ready for
30:29
school, you have to remember they're not robots.
30:31
They're not just going to do everything you say.
30:33
These are little humans with little brains with little
30:35
intentions and emotions that go with it.
30:37
And it's to figure it out. My next question I have.
30:41
So this is going to be probably a little controversial.
30:43
I want to talk about those praise and rewards.
30:46
So it's a case of recently I saw someone had a little jar.
30:51
And so every time their kid did a, they were using the potty or
30:54
the toilet and every time they did a pee or a poo, they put
30:57
these little things into the jar to reward the child.
30:59
And when the jar got to a certain stage, the child would
31:01
get a toy. And it kind of triggered me
31:04
because I was like, this is a major learning development for
31:07
them. And I was kind of like, oh,
31:08
you're extrinsically placing this thing instead of getting
31:11
them and their body connected to understand what they're meant to
31:14
be using. And it triggered me in such a
31:15
way. And then that leads into back in
31:18
the olden days, back when I was young, you know, those stars
31:21
that you would get in school and they were like, if you did a
31:23
good job that day, you get your star.
31:25
If you did your homework or if you got a certain grade, you'll
31:27
get a star in. If you've got so many stars, I
31:29
don't know, you don't get homework.
31:31
I can't remember, it's a long time ago.
31:32
Forgive me, but what would your thoughts be on that side of
31:35
things? I think it is a really tricky 1.
31:37
And I mean personally for me, I don't use methods like that just
31:42
because I suppose going back to kind of the intrinsic and
31:44
extrinsic motivation side of things, it's a very much an
31:48
extrinsic motivation factor. And I think looking at
31:52
supporting something like using the potty or using the toilet
31:55
independently in a way that supports the intrinsic
31:57
motivation is in the long term going to be much more effective
32:01
and it's going to sustain that in the longer term.
32:04
Thinking about it. And I know you mentioned there
32:06
about in the classroom and it been used in the classroom in
32:09
terms of being given stars or kind of visible methods to
32:13
reinforce behaviours. And I think that that one's a
32:16
really tricky one in itself. And I think as well, when we're
32:19
thinking about children and self comparison, and particularly
32:23
around the age of seven and 8:00, where they're really,
32:25
really starting to notice the differences between and other
32:28
children, I think that can have quite a detrimental impact on
32:31
their self esteem and their confidence, particularly if lots
32:34
of other children around them are getting stars.
32:37
But then they notice themselves that they're not receiving
32:39
stars, even if they're trying really hard.
32:42
And, and I suppose it goes back to what, what are they being
32:45
given those stars for? Are they being given those stars
32:48
for their ability? And particularly if you've got
32:51
children who find certain areas really difficult.
32:53
So say, for example, it's a chart on spellings.
32:56
So every, every child who gets a star for getting seven or more
33:00
spellings, right? You're gonna have some children
33:02
who find literacy really, really difficult and they're not
33:05
getting any stars, but yet they might be trying incredibly hard.
33:08
If we're looking at those kind of methods being more
33:10
supportive, is it around, again giving those stars in relation
33:14
to the effort that's been put in rather than the achievement or
33:18
the outcome at the end, if that makes sense?
33:20
Yeah, totally. Yeah.
33:21
Yeah, it's exactly. The growth and fixed mindset.
33:24
Yeah, yeah. It's, I mean, as I said, I do
33:28
feel like it's a bit of a controversial one because people
33:30
feel like it's just so simple and it's effective and you can
33:33
easily buy those things to have in your home.
33:36
So yeah, that's why I kind of wanted to tackle upon that
33:39
coming back to our own little community here.
33:41
So for the families who've recently moved to a new country
33:43
and whose children are trying to fit into a new school, are there
33:46
any specific emotional challenges that these children
33:49
are going to face? And how can these parents
33:51
actually support them during this transition?
33:53
I think this is always a tricky 1.
33:54
I think in terms of moving to a new school, for example, or a
33:58
new daycare setting, it's always really tricky.
34:01
And I actually thought about this in quite a lot of depth
34:03
recently when thinking about my little boy starting daycare.
34:07
So he started daycare when he was 2 and starting daycare in
34:10
itself is a huge change when he pretty much spent most of his
34:14
time with me up until that point or umm, or familiar babysitters
34:18
or family. And actually he was put into
34:21
this new environment where he didn't know anybody.
34:23
They spoke Dutch, which is an added challenge for him to
34:27
navigate when he, he had never been exposed to judge before and
34:31
a new environment and new toys. And for him it was huge.
34:34
And, and I think for me as a parent to stick, take a step
34:38
back and really acknowledge that was really, really important
34:41
that actually there's, there's a lot going on for him right now.
34:43
And I, I know, umm, other people here are friends who were going
34:46
through a very similar situation right now where their child's
34:49
transitioning into daycare and their sleeps completely up and
34:52
down and their emotional regulation is very up and down.
34:55
And actually, I suppose one of the most important things can do
34:58
as parents is to acknowledge how tricky that period of time is
35:02
for them and to be there and work alongside them and think,
35:05
right, how can we support you during this tricky time?
35:07
Is it about just being emotionally available for them
35:10
to make sure that we can support them when they're with us to
35:13
develop some of the, the strategies or to develop and
35:16
some resilience to really be able to manage that situation.
35:20
One, one of the really lovely strategies that I, I talk about
35:23
quite a lot is making sure that we have periods of time where we
35:28
are able to really connect and spend time with our child as
35:31
much as we can. Now, I realized that every day,
35:34
this might seem like a challenge, but even looking at
35:37
kind of like 10 to 15 minutes a day of undisrupted time with
35:42
your child can make such a huge difference in connecting with
35:45
them. So when I talk about undisrupted
35:47
time, it would be away from social media, away from jobs,
35:51
any housework, or even the TV. Having everything switched off
35:55
and trying to just provide that 1015 minutes of complete
35:58
engagement with your child where they direct whatever it is that
36:02
that they want to do, whether it be reading books or whether it
36:04
be playing. But really filling up their
36:07
emotional cup for that 10 to 15 minutes can make such a huge
36:11
difference in supporting them to then go and face some of the
36:14
challenges. So I've noticed a huge
36:16
difference in my little boy if I do this first thing on a morning
36:20
and I realize not everybody has this luxury of being able to do
36:23
that. I try and give him 10 minutes on
36:25
a morning where I say, right, whatever you want for 10 minutes
36:28
and whether it be read books, whether it be play.
36:31
And I've actually found that that has quite a significant
36:34
impact on them, how he presents in daycare.
36:37
And there was one day where I didn't do it and he had a really
36:40
tricky day. And I was like, Oh no.
36:42
And it could have been a complete coincidence.
36:44
But actually I personally see that is that there has been
36:47
quite a big shift in how settled he is just from giving him that
36:51
10 minutes of undisrupted time. There's lots of other things
36:55
that we can think about as well. And I think one of the most
36:57
important things we can do is listen to our children.
37:00
I think particularly when children have the language to be
37:03
able to express themselves, What are the things that they are
37:06
worried about? Because it's a huge shift
37:08
starting a new school and there've been lots of new people
37:11
around, new teachers really speaking to them about what,
37:14
what is it that you are worried about at the moment?
37:16
Or is there anything that you're worried about?
37:18
And what can we do to prepare you?
37:20
What can we do to really help you to go into that environment?
37:24
So for example, one of the things that I in the past in
37:27
particular used to used to find quite tricky was going into new
37:30
social situations that used to give me huge anxiety.
37:34
And if I was going to be speaking to somebody of a child
37:37
who was experiencing such difficulties, I, I would kind of
37:41
maybe talk to them and say, well, how could you maybe think
37:44
about how can you support yourself in that situation?
37:46
What could you do? Could you maybe look at setting
37:48
up a couple of scripts or a couple of like sentence starters
37:52
for you to use just to start a conversation with somebody or
37:55
just to a topic to perhaps talk about for them to feel confident
37:59
in being able to engage in interactions with others.
38:03
So it's very much around how can we give them the skills to be
38:06
able to counteract whatever it is that they are worried about.
38:09
Also supporting them in in developing strengths.
38:13
Or I suppose that the correct term would be developing mastery
38:17
in something. So supporting them to find
38:20
something that they're really interested in find and even if
38:23
it's something new or something that they're working on, but
38:26
really developing mastery in a, an area can really help to
38:30
develop their self esteem. And the difficulty that, well,
38:33
it's not necessarily a difficulty, but when looking at
38:35
self esteem, it's on a continuum.
38:37
So you can have lower self esteem, high self esteem, but
38:40
also at the same time, you can have lower self esteem in one
38:43
area and high self esteem in the in, in a different area.
38:46
So say for example, a child might be great at sports, so
38:50
they might have really quite high self esteem in, it's like
38:52
for example, playing football or hockey or whatever that might
38:55
be. But then they might have quite
38:56
low self esteem in relation to their learning or social
39:00
experiences. But actually what we've found is
39:02
if we can really support young, young people in feeling a level
39:06
of mastery and we feel like they, they have high self esteem
39:09
in a certain area, that can then help to counteract and how they
39:12
feel in a, in a different area where they might find things
39:15
more challenging. So I suppose it's balanced in
39:18
the positive with the negative, isn't it?
39:19
And trying to to make sure that those positive experiences
39:23
balance out those those more more tricky experiences.
39:27
I've actually heard about. Self stand because they know
39:30
there is a version of me that already in that field knows how
39:35
to do it. So how can I model myself and we
39:37
can do this so easily even with the toddlers when we can say so
39:42
how did you stand? Can you show me how did you
39:44
stand out there? Where were your hands?
39:46
Where were so like really scanning with them, how the days
39:49
physically stand up there? And then can you tell me what
39:52
voice did you use when you said that?
39:54
And like really showing them that there is a version of
39:58
already there. You can look at it and you can
40:01
really learn from yourself and then model it into those other
40:04
different areas. And that's so powerful when they
40:07
know I am able to do this under these circumstances.
40:11
So my body and my mind has experienced the efficiency of
40:15
it. The thing you just said there
40:17
actually reminds me of something I did here and I think it was
40:19
someone in America and they were basically saying that when your
40:22
child is excelling as you say in sports but they're like failing
40:25
in maths, instead of hiring that tutor to come in to help with
40:28
mats, it's hire someone to help them excel even further because
40:32
it builds up such a level of self esteem that they feel more
40:35
capable and you can always work.