Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / The chilling words & deeds of pedophile & killer Ricky Langley

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The chilling words & deeds of pedophile & killer Ricky Langley · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious Exim Triumph in
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Speaker 1: Langley was arrested for the murder of six year old
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Speaker 1: Jeremy Guillory of Ioway. A three day search for the
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Speaker 1: missing boy ended when the child's body was found in
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Speaker 1: Langley's closet. The little boy had been strangled and molested,
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Speaker 1: but I stopped an old, dirty sock in his mouth
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Speaker 1: and I held his nose. I'm ready to do that
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Speaker 1: to make sure he couldn't get no air to Indy.
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Speaker 1: We will go till the ends of the earth to
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Speaker 1: make sure that the person who committed that event she's justice.
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Speaker 1: I think the ultimate judgment would be given to him
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Speaker 1: another time, another class. A six year old little boy
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Speaker 1: is dead. Jeremy juxtaposed that against an incredible book called
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Speaker 1: The Fact of a Body, a murder and a memoir
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Speaker 1: by Alexandria Marzano Lestovich. How do the two intersect? How
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Speaker 1: do the two collide? I mean, see Grace, this is
1:04
Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here on
1:06
Speaker 1: Sirius X. With me the author of the Fact of
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Speaker 1: a Body, Alexandria Marzano Lesnovich. Also with me high profile
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Speaker 1: psychologist Dr Chloe Carmichael, Hi, Dr Chloe, and Joseph Scott Morgan,
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Speaker 1: forensics expert Professor of Forensics at Jacksonville State University, and
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Speaker 1: of course Alan the Dup Dup joining me out of
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Speaker 1: l A. I want to start things by explaining a
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Speaker 1: little bit, just a tiny bit about the fact of
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Speaker 1: a body, a murder, and a memoir. Now remember the
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Speaker 1: backdrop is the murder of a six year old little boy, Jeremy.
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Speaker 1: Now before, Alexandria begins a summer job at a law
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Speaker 1: firm in Louisiana working for the defense defending for the
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Speaker 1: retrial of a death row inmate, convicted murderer and child
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Speaker 1: old molester, Ricky Langley. She thinks her position is very,
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Speaker 1: very plain. She is the daughter of two lawyers, and
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Speaker 1: she is very firm about the death penalty anti death penalty.
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Speaker 1: But the moment Ricky's face appears on a screen as
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Speaker 1: she is reviewing old tapes, the moment she hears him
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Speaker 1: actually talking about his crimes, She's overcome with a feeling
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Speaker 1: of wanting Ricky Langley to die, which is against everything
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Speaker 1: she has ever believed. I want you to first hear
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Speaker 1: a confession tape by the convicted child molester and killer,
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Speaker 1: Ricky Langley. I wrapped that string, knowledge string around his neck,
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Speaker 1: and proved as hard as I could on it. You know,
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Speaker 1: you know that's it wasn't stopping him trying to breed.
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Speaker 1: He was still trying to breathe, but a stuffed, an
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Speaker 1: old dirty stuck in his mouth, and I held his nose.
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Speaker 1: Why did you do that to make sure he couldn't
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Speaker 1: get in no air? Okay? To end it to Alexandria
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Speaker 1: Marzono Wesnevich, the author of the Fact of a Body,
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Speaker 1: a Murder and a Memoir. Alexandria, thank you for being
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Speaker 1: with us. Tell me how you came to write the book.
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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. Um. I really wrote the
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Speaker 1: book because I was so haunted by the case. And
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Speaker 1: it's the act of writing the book was really an
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Speaker 1: act of trying to figure out why it was haunting me,
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Speaker 1: so why it seemed to be getting so tangled up
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Speaker 1: with my memories of my own past. So I had
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Speaker 1: watched the video tape, as you said, while I was
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Speaker 1: an intern at this law firm. I didn't work directly
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Speaker 1: on his case, Um, but they showed us this confession tape,
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Speaker 1: and up to that moment, My feelings were so clear.
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Speaker 1: Right after I watched the tape, I learned that Jeremy
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Speaker 1: Gillory's mother, Laura, like Gillary, had taken the stand at
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Speaker 1: the trial. There were three trials, and so she had
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Speaker 1: taken the stand at the second trial, and she had
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Speaker 1: actually pleaded to keep Ricky Langley alive. She testified for him,
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Speaker 1: and UM, and that moment, I was so struck that
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Speaker 1: she had been able to do this, and I couldn't
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Speaker 1: that even though despite what I believe, despite what I
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Speaker 1: wanted to fight for. You know, I had gone to
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Speaker 1: law school wanting to fight the death penalty. Um, how
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Speaker 1: had she been able to do that? And why couldn't I?
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Speaker 1: And I think for years I was also haunted by
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Speaker 1: it because it raised this question, you know, is who
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Speaker 1: we are determined by what we believe and what we
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Speaker 1: want to fight for? Or is who we are determined
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Speaker 1: by what happened in our past? Because what happened for
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Speaker 1: me is that the Langley case really hit hard against
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Speaker 1: all these things in my own past I couldn't think
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Speaker 1: about or talk about. And so for years, you know,
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Speaker 1: the case, the details of the case, UM, there was
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Speaker 1: this be begun that Jeremy had there was a blue
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Speaker 1: blanket that Ricky Langley wrapped his body in. These details
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Speaker 1: would just come back to me really like I was
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Speaker 1: haunted by them. And years later I started to get
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Speaker 1: some of the court records from the case in an
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Speaker 1: attempt to lay the past arrest, in an attempt to
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Speaker 1: kind of put it in the ground stop thinking about it.
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Speaker 1: Um and had started really led into this book. Wow,
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Speaker 1: Alexandria Marzano Lesnevich, author of the Fact of a Body,
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Speaker 1: a Murderer and a Memoir. I didn't want you to
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Speaker 1: stop talking to hear you recall those moments and how
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Speaker 1: your past factors in to this particular case haunting you.
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Speaker 1: Jo's got Morgan, I know that you are familiar with
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Speaker 1: the murder of six year old Jeremy Gilroy. What happened.
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Speaker 1: It's it's an absolutely uh brutal case that that took
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Speaker 1: place in Uh in the home of It's actually a
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Speaker 1: rented room that was down the street from where this
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Speaker 1: little child lived with his mother en mother. Um. They
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Speaker 1: kind of migrated around in this little tiny area of
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Speaker 1: of Iowa, lose Annam and UH didn't have much to
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Speaker 1: UH to speak of in material possessions and um, uh,
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Speaker 1: this child, who was at least peripherally familiar with uh
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Speaker 1: with Langley, was essentially lured in uh to to the
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Speaker 1: home and at that point in time, UM, there's it's
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Speaker 1: it's alluded to at least that potentially, uh Langley had
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Speaker 1: had an attraction him because he had actually been in
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Speaker 1: his child's presence when a child was being bathed or bathing.
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Speaker 1: And UM, wait a minute, wait a minute, how did
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Speaker 1: that happen that a child molester is in the presence
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Speaker 1: of a six year old boy when he's being bathed.
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Speaker 1: I think that the dynamics of this family UH probably
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Speaker 1: you know that are dictated by a lot of the
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Speaker 1: the uh, the circumstances that the mother were in was
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Speaker 1: in uh you know, left him in in a position
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Speaker 1: where Lane Lee had actually watch cared over over this
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Speaker 1: child at least for a small period of time just
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Speaker 1: previous to the to the homicide. And Alexander speaks to
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Speaker 1: this uh in compelling terms about that this is kind
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Speaker 1: of where the seed seed was planted. Um. And eventually
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Speaker 1: what happened was that Langley um um strangled this little boy.
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Speaker 1: But but it's it's so much more than that. To
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Speaker 1: Alexandria Morozono Lesnovich, author of the Fact of a Body
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Speaker 1: Murder and memoir. Isn't it true that at one juncture
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Speaker 1: we learned that Ricky Langley claims he likes to sleep
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Speaker 1: in graveyards and that he wanted to sleep with the
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Speaker 1: body of the six year old boy. Yeah, there is
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Speaker 1: a long history of making making these kinds of statements. Um.
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Speaker 1: He has a fascination with the occult that seems to
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Speaker 1: go back to when he was a fild and to
8:01
Speaker 1: the circumstances of his birth and to the circumstances of
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Speaker 1: his early childhood. And so he tells many stories later
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Speaker 1: about strangling Jeremy Um, in which he gives many different
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Speaker 1: reasons that he did so and many different feelings that
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Speaker 1: he hit afterwards. I think one of the things that
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Speaker 1: drew me to this case was that the record is
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Speaker 1: full of him kind of telling himself the story of
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Speaker 1: the murder, trying to figure out why he did it.
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Speaker 1: And Yeah, that's one of one of the stories he gives.
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Speaker 1: Did he most Jeremy before he was murdered? That is
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Speaker 1: the question, That is the question. And it's really striking
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Speaker 1: to me that in three trials they never really solidly
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Speaker 1: answered that question. Were forensics stand on the child's body, Alexandria, Yes,
8:44
Speaker 1: they were, They were, and Um Ricky langley sperm was
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Speaker 1: found on the child's T shirt, on Jeremy's T shirt.
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Speaker 1: He was wearing a little white fruit of the Loom
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Speaker 1: T shirt and they cut the seman scenes out of it.
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Speaker 1: And the location of that semen and how it might
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Speaker 1: have transferred, whether it transferred or whether it got there
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Speaker 1: through Ricky Langley doing something UM was a source of
9:09
Speaker 1: a lot of debate at the trial. UM. But confusingly,
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Speaker 1: there was also a piece of evidence found on him,
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Speaker 1: a pubic care found on his lip that did not
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Speaker 1: match for he Langley two. Just got Morgan, Um, I
9:24
Speaker 1: cannot explain the hair on the child's lip, but I
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Speaker 1: can't explain Ricky Langley's sperm on the child's T shirt.
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Speaker 1: I can't explain that. And I don't need just got Morgan.
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Speaker 1: I used to argue to juries. You know, I learned
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Speaker 1: early on as a child, as a little girl, it's
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Speaker 1: easier to understand something if you're hearing a story like
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Speaker 1: a parable. Get it a parable, a story that makes
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Speaker 1: a point part of every son morning stories that teach
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Speaker 1: you a point. And this is what I would tell
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Speaker 1: a jury. The judge will instruct you that circumstantial evidence
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Speaker 1: is as powerful, in my opinion, even more powerful sometimes
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Speaker 1: than direct evidence. Direct evidence is like an eyewitness or
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Speaker 1: d n A or a fingerprint. Circumstantial evidence is this.
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Speaker 1: When you come into your office in the morning, it's
10:25
Speaker 1: eight am and the sky is bright and shiny, not
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Speaker 1: a cloud to be seen. You come out at lunchtime,
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Speaker 1: it's dark, dark, it's cloudy. There's water on the ground,
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Speaker 1: pools of water. Men are going by hugging their raincoats.
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Speaker 1: Women have umbrellas. You don't have to see the storm
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Speaker 1: to know it. Rained that circumstantial evidence. What you can
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Speaker 1: deduce figure out from what you see, what you smell,
10:55
Speaker 1: what you hear, what you touch. That circumstantial evidence, and
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Speaker 1: it is powerful. Nobody needs to tell me that the
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Speaker 1: child was molested when the killer sperm is on the
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Speaker 1: child's T shirt and either crazy one of this scenario
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, no, no. And the beauty of direct evidence,
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Speaker 1: when when coupled with with the narrative that's that's left behind,
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Speaker 1: is that it does fill in the blanks for us.
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Speaker 1: The trick is I think, based on my experience in
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Speaker 1: court and the labs, is if the the prosecutor has
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Speaker 1: the ability to put these pieces together and present it
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Speaker 1: in a manner in which you know, can sway sway
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Speaker 1: the jury to their point of view. And it's three trials. Wow.
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Speaker 1: Uh And you know there's there are a lot of
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Speaker 1: conclusions that can be drawn here. But I agree with you.
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Speaker 1: Uh something you know you you don't find ejaculant on
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Speaker 1: on a T shirt? Uh that belongs to a small
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Speaker 1: child like this without something having happened. Well, I mean
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Speaker 1: it's the defendant sperm. It's not the child sperm. Hold on,
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Speaker 1: before I go back into the facts, I want to
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Speaker 1: bring in a renowned psychologist joining us out of Manhattan.
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Speaker 1: It's Dr Chloe Carmichael. Dr Chloe, thank you for being
12:18
Speaker 1: with us. The real issue here, I mean, you heard
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Speaker 1: the confession about sticking a sock in the little boy's
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Speaker 1: mouth and pinching his nose so we couldn't breathe. His
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Speaker 1: T shirt covered in the defendant sperm. The question is
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Speaker 1: going to be was he insane at the time of
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Speaker 1: the act. Now, under our law, our Anglo Saxon jurisprudence,
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Speaker 1: and I say that because we brought our common law
12:44
Speaker 1: from Great Britain. That's where we got it, okay, And
12:47
Speaker 1: at the time it was brought it was created, it
12:50
Speaker 1: was under the Saxon and Anglo rule. That's where that
12:54
Speaker 1: comes from. And under our law, the McNaughton law of
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Speaker 1: insanity is if you knew right or wrong at the
13:03
Speaker 1: time you committed the act, not when you go to trial,
13:07
Speaker 1: not when you're in jail and you're throwing your food
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Speaker 1: and humming to yourself at the time of the incident,
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Speaker 1: and the argument at trial Dr Chloe Carmichael was that
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Speaker 1: he knew to cover up his crime at the time
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Speaker 1: he tried to cover it up, which says too many
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Speaker 1: that he knew right from wrong. Dr Chloe Carmichael wag
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Speaker 1: in Um, I would agree that this definitely sounds like
13:35
Speaker 1: somebody who is able to tell right from wrong. Certainly,
13:39
Speaker 1: it sounds like a very damaged and warped person from
13:42
Speaker 1: a tragic background who absolutely was struggling with mental illness.
13:47
Speaker 1: But you know, you're absolutely right, Nancy, there's no evidence
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Speaker 1: to say that this person did not know right from wrong.
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Speaker 1: For example, he never attempted anything like this um in
13:57
Speaker 1: front of other people. Right, he waited an till he
14:00
Speaker 1: was alone, He waited until he was in secret. Uh.
14:03
Speaker 1: He originally lied to the police, from what I understand,
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Speaker 1: and said, you know that that the little boy had
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Speaker 1: not been there, And as you said, he then hid
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Speaker 1: the body. Um. So he later recalled and discussed it
14:15
Speaker 1: with such clarity and such willingness. Um. But I think
14:19
Speaker 1: that might have more to do with a desire on
14:21
Speaker 1: his part to try to seek some kind of absolution. Um.
14:26
Speaker 1: But I certainly don't think that he was unable to
14:28
Speaker 1: tell the difference between right and wrong at the time.
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Speaker 1: You know, one thing that I really appreciated to Alexandria Marzano, Lesnovitch,
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Speaker 1: our special guests joining us author of the fact of
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Speaker 1: a body, is that the judge struggled. The judge struggled
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Speaker 1: with what to do, and he went on and on
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Speaker 1: about how could two renowned experts come to such startlingly
14:53
Speaker 1: different conclusions, about was this guy insane at the time
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Speaker 1: he murdered six year old Jeremy. Did you notice that, Alexandra,
15:01
Speaker 1: he really discussed it a lot. Oh, absolutely, I mean
15:06
Speaker 1: he even discussed throughout the trial. He even discussed how
15:09
Speaker 1: much the case was driving him to drink um and
15:12
Speaker 1: how much when he went home at night, he was
15:13
Speaker 1: haunted by what he had seen in the corner room,
15:15
Speaker 1: the images of Jeremy's body. He was also just giving
15:19
Speaker 1: me chills on my arms right now, because you just
15:21
Speaker 1: in that one moment brought back all the times I
15:24
Speaker 1: would have to actually pull off the road in my
15:27
Speaker 1: car when I would leave the courthouse. And I have
15:31
Speaker 1: a very strict rule against a drinking And I'll tell
15:34
Speaker 1: you why. It's not a moral or ethical rule. It's
15:36
Speaker 1: that I've seen it destroy so many people destroy and
15:40
Speaker 1: when you see cases like this as I have, sometimes
15:44
Speaker 1: it is overwhelming. In you know what, I'm not proud
15:48
Speaker 1: of anybody that that drinks too much or drive drives
15:52
Speaker 1: drinking or but the fact that he struggled so much
15:57
Speaker 1: shows me that this judge cared. He cared, he cared
16:01
Speaker 1: about what happened, He cared about doing the right thing.
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Speaker 1: I really think he did. And then, and those comments
16:06
Speaker 1: started even during Vaudier year tour in jury selection, when
16:10
Speaker 1: he was also clearly haunted by seeing Ricky in front
16:14
Speaker 1: of him, and the fact that that you know, in
16:16
Speaker 1: his courtroom it would be determined whether Rickie Langley lived
16:18
Speaker 1: or died. He spoke quite movingly on the record about
16:23
Speaker 1: not know fearing that decision, fearing being haunted by it
16:26
Speaker 1: years later, fearing either way the case came out, you know,
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Speaker 1: whether Langley was found it was convicted and sentenced to death,
16:34
Speaker 1: which he ultimately wasn't in that trial, um, but fearing
16:37
Speaker 1: that that too would haunt him, but also fearing what
16:40
Speaker 1: would happen if, you know, he had to look at
16:42
Speaker 1: these pictures of this little boy, look at this little
16:44
Speaker 1: boy's mother, and say that there would be no justice
16:46
Speaker 1: for him. So one of the things that the judge
16:49
Speaker 1: really showed me was the cost on the different people
16:53
Speaker 1: involved in the criminal justice system. Well hold on just
16:57
Speaker 1: a moment, and the cost on you, Yes, Alexandria Amrazano Lessnovitch,
17:03
Speaker 1: who became intimately familiar with this death penalty case and
17:07
Speaker 1: the molestation and murder of a six year old little boy, Jeremy.
17:12
Speaker 1: The toll it took on you during that internship. The
17:16
Speaker 1: toll it takes on Dr Chloe Carmichael as she struggles
17:19
Speaker 1: with issues like this. Psychologists joining me out of Manhattan.
17:23
Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, he's a death investigator, myself had Delane
17:29
Speaker 1: have handled literally thousands of felonies. The toll it takes
17:34
Speaker 1: on you, it changes your life forever. You don't believe me,
17:38
Speaker 1: listen to this. I wrapped that string, knowledge string around
17:44
Speaker 1: his neck and prove it as hard as I could
17:46
Speaker 1: on it. You know, you know that still wasn't stopping
17:50
Speaker 1: him trying to breathe. He was still trying to breathe.
17:53
Speaker 1: But I stuffed an old, dirty sock in his mouth
17:56
Speaker 1: and I held his nose that to make sure he
18:00
Speaker 1: couldn't get in the air to end. Hold on just
18:03
Speaker 1: a moment, I want to address something. You know, there's
18:06
Speaker 1: a lot of cold cases out there, like the Golden
18:08
Speaker 1: State Killer, and they've been in the news a lot recently.
18:11
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18:14
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18:18
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18:23
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18:26
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18:34
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18:44
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18:50
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18:55
Speaker 1: six pm Eastern, five pm Central, and you can find
19:00
Speaker 1: it on Oxygen. With Me. The author of the Fact
19:12
Speaker 1: of a Body a Murder in memoir, Alexandria Marzano Lesenovich,
19:16
Speaker 1: who was profoundly affected by the time she spent working
19:20
Speaker 1: on a death penalty case, going into the case staunchly
19:24
Speaker 1: against the death penalty. In fact, her aim was to
19:27
Speaker 1: save Rickey Langley from the death penalty. Langley convicted of
19:32
Speaker 1: murdering a six year old little boy, Jeremy Gilroy. With Me,
19:37
Speaker 1: Dr Chloe Carmichael's psychologists out of Manhattan and renowned for
19:41
Speaker 1: instance expert Joe Scott Morgan, Professor of forensics at Jacksonville
19:46
Speaker 1: State University and death investigator. You know, when I was
19:51
Speaker 1: growing up, I never thought that I would put behind
19:54
Speaker 1: my name specialty serial, murder, serial rape, serial I'm lastation.
20:00
Speaker 1: I just didn't see that coming, you know, in my world, Alexandra,
20:04
Speaker 1: when I was growing up, I thought that I would
20:07
Speaker 1: get a car or truck and on the back I
20:11
Speaker 1: would have one of those traveling like RV trailers and
20:16
Speaker 1: it would be full of books, books, just nothing but
20:19
Speaker 1: books in there. And that I would also behind that
20:22
Speaker 1: have attached another trailer with a horse in it. That
20:25
Speaker 1: was what I would thought I would do, and I
20:27
Speaker 1: would write books and play with my horse. That's what
20:31
Speaker 1: I That was my plan, Okay. I did not know
20:35
Speaker 1: that one day it would be Nancy Grace trial specialty
20:39
Speaker 1: serial murder, serial rape, and serial child lostation and any
20:43
Speaker 1: type of arson. That was basically on my calling card.
20:48
Speaker 1: I'm sure Joe Scott, you didn't think that you would
20:50
Speaker 1: be death investigator, and Dr Chloe probably did not imagine
20:55
Speaker 1: she would be helping people sort through life changing issues. Alexandria,
21:01
Speaker 1: your childhood really played into the way the six year
21:07
Speaker 1: old Jeremy's murder affected you. It did, and in fact,
21:15
Speaker 1: it was everything that I didn't think about in my
21:17
Speaker 1: childhood that was sort of forced to the forefront by
21:21
Speaker 1: encountering this case. So when I watched he Langley's confession,
21:26
Speaker 1: which you now heard a clip of, I was sitting
21:29
Speaker 1: in that room. I remember it so clearly. I was
21:32
Speaker 1: in this big Cavernous Loss Law firm library, dark wood lined,
21:38
Speaker 1: the shelves lined with the leather bound books that hold
21:40
Speaker 1: all the old case registers. And I was sitting on
21:43
Speaker 1: a folding chair. Um, I was pretty nervous. I was
21:45
Speaker 1: twenty five years old. It was only my third day
21:48
Speaker 1: in this internship, and so you can imagine, you know,
21:50
Speaker 1: I was wearing a new suit, kind of scratching on
21:52
Speaker 1: my skin, and I'm sitting there and I've been waiting
21:55
Speaker 1: for this moment since I was a child, really, since
21:57
Speaker 1: I learned about the death penalt day at eight years
21:59
Speaker 1: old old. I had wanted to fight it. And they
22:02
Speaker 1: queue up this tape and they play this tape and
22:06
Speaker 1: Ricky Langley on the tape describes the pleasure he took
22:10
Speaker 1: in molesting small children, and he described very vividly, very
22:15
Speaker 1: specific actions that he did, and all of a sudden, listening,
22:19
Speaker 1: I wasn't twenty five years old anymore. All of a sudden,
22:23
Speaker 1: I was a child again, and I could feel all
22:25
Speaker 1: my grandfather's hands on me. And that was the moment
22:30
Speaker 1: that I wanted him to die. I had never forgotten
22:35
Speaker 1: being molested, you know, it wasn't like that, but it
22:37
Speaker 1: was something that I tried really, really hard not to
22:41
Speaker 1: think about UM, precisely because the memories lived so vividly
22:44
Speaker 1: in my body. So I think why this case haunted
22:47
Speaker 1: me so much for for so many years is just
22:50
Speaker 1: everything that it made me confront that lived inside me,
22:53
Speaker 1: that I had tried so desperately not to confront, not
22:56
Speaker 1: to think about, not to deal with. Yah, Alexandria Marzana Lesnevich.
23:04
Speaker 1: Hearing you talk is actually bringing me to tears, because
23:10
Speaker 1: we all have, or I guess many of us, not
23:13
Speaker 1: all of us, those moments, those horrible moments in our
23:20
Speaker 1: lives that try their best to define us, that we
23:27
Speaker 1: carry around every single day. I've dealt with so many
23:34
Speaker 1: rape victims, child leustation victims, and their lives are forever changed.
23:43
Speaker 1: Dr Chloe Carmichael. When this happens to you as a child,
23:48
Speaker 1: you don't even have a chance to fully develop as
23:51
Speaker 1: a person. You know, it's your entire life. It's affected.
23:59
Speaker 1: I want to say, to find but as we see
24:01
Speaker 1: in Alexander's case, she did not let it define her.
24:05
Speaker 1: Help me, Dr Chloe. Sure, well, Nancy, I think you're
24:09
Speaker 1: exactly right, which is that UM, we would actually be
24:12
Speaker 1: pathologizing anybody you know who has suffered this kind of abuse.
24:17
Speaker 1: If we were to say, you know, well, because the
24:19
Speaker 1: Keller experience to this abuse, this was therefore became his
24:23
Speaker 1: destiny to act out that way upon other people, and
24:26
Speaker 1: that would actually be the most damaging and stigmatizing thing
24:30
Speaker 1: that we could do. So UM, as a psychologist, I
24:34
Speaker 1: have to say that this is a situation where we
24:36
Speaker 1: have to be able to hold both truths at the
24:38
Speaker 1: same time. Um, that that Ricky Langley was a was
24:42
Speaker 1: a victim himself, and then he chose not to control himself,
24:50
Speaker 1: not to you know, get the help that he needed. Um.
24:53
Speaker 1: There's it's one thing. It's one level in psychology to
24:58
Speaker 1: have urges to molest children. It's another thing to act
25:02
Speaker 1: on it. Um. So from what I understand, he had
25:06
Speaker 1: experienced those urges and had even been convicted in the
25:09
Speaker 1: past of child molestation. So this is somebody who actually
25:13
Speaker 1: had experience and had you know, had attempts from society
25:17
Speaker 1: at trying to correct him before, and he chose to
25:20
Speaker 1: go another way, and we need to understand that that
25:23
Speaker 1: was his choice and therefore he needs to be held accountable.
25:27
Speaker 1: You know, just got Morgan back to the issue of
25:29
Speaker 1: whether he knew right from wrong. I noticed that during
25:32
Speaker 1: the trial, Langley appeared to be paying attention, and he
25:36
Speaker 1: actually broke out smiling at many many points during the trial,
25:41
Speaker 1: even though he had a bandage under one of his
25:43
Speaker 1: eyes from a cut that he had gotten from a
25:45
Speaker 1: fight with another inmate. But when the state played the
25:49
Speaker 1: tape of Langley confessing to killing Jeremy and testimony when
25:56
Speaker 1: the police uncovered the body, he hung his head down
26:01
Speaker 1: and would not watch. And you know what that reminds
26:04
Speaker 1: me of Joe Scott. I remember when I was called
26:06
Speaker 1: to the stand and my fiancee's murder, and I took
26:10
Speaker 1: the stand. I remember that distinctly. Everything else melts away.
26:13
Speaker 1: I can't remember hardly a thing, but I remember coming
26:16
Speaker 1: down off the witness stand, and it was high up,
26:19
Speaker 1: even with the judges, almost even with the judge, and
26:22
Speaker 1: you would walk up one set of stairs and there
26:25
Speaker 1: was a little landing, and then you go up to
26:27
Speaker 1: an another set of stairs and to the witness stand.
26:30
Speaker 1: You're up, way up. And I remember walking down, and
26:34
Speaker 1: I remember my boots on the wood, and I walked
26:38
Speaker 1: past the state's table and I saw Keith's bloody denim
26:43
Speaker 1: shirt that I had not seen, and I saw it
26:46
Speaker 1: lying on the states table, and then I kept walking.
26:50
Speaker 1: I got to the defense table. I looked at the defendant.
26:54
Speaker 1: He met my eyes and immediately looked down. And then
26:58
Speaker 1: I looked at the defense lawyer and he it tik
27:00
Speaker 1: my eyes and then he looked down, like straight into
27:03
Speaker 1: his lap. They couldn't look up. And I remember just
27:05
Speaker 1: standing there staring at them, and then walking out and
27:10
Speaker 1: my boots making the footsteps sounds on the marble floor
27:16
Speaker 1: until the door shut behind me. That's what I remember.
27:19
Speaker 1: And when I hear Langley just looked down when his
27:23
Speaker 1: confession was being played, that means a lot to me.
27:26
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, Yeah, I know it does. Nancy Uh can't
27:30
Speaker 1: just say I gotta tell you something that's really gripping
27:33
Speaker 1: to me and kind of devetails what you're saying here.
27:37
Speaker 1: And I don't know if Alexander can really, you know,
27:41
Speaker 1: um comment on this or not. But in his in
27:45
Speaker 1: his confession, he may have looked down in court at
27:49
Speaker 1: that moment time, But in his confession there was something
27:52
Speaker 1: that just really stood out to me. And that's when
27:54
Speaker 1: he didn't say that as he was using a ligature
27:58
Speaker 1: on his child's that that that he wanted to hurry
28:03
Speaker 1: or speed his death. He said, I took an old,
28:09
Speaker 1: dirty sock, not just to sock, I stuffed it in
28:13
Speaker 1: his mouth and then I held his nose. And to me,
28:20
Speaker 1: that one statement really sums this up with this fellow.
28:25
Speaker 1: This seems as though that maybe he is fighting some
28:28
Speaker 1: kind of internal battle. I don't know, in the whole
28:30
Speaker 1: grand scheme of things, in the light of this child
28:33
Speaker 1: who cannot speak for himself any longer, I don't really care.
28:37
Speaker 1: But it does talk about the the person, the essence
28:42
Speaker 1: of what this perpetrator was relative to this this innocence life,
28:47
Speaker 1: and that just it just it's haunting. I mean, it's
28:50
Speaker 1: absolutely harnted. And it just gripped me. And that's the
28:52
Speaker 1: first time I've heard that confession. Uh, it just really
28:55
Speaker 1: gripped me. And I don't know if that impacted Alexy
28:57
Speaker 1: and it's the same way, but it just it just
29:00
Speaker 1: really kind of reached out through the microphone and and
29:02
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, grabbed me by by the scruff
29:05
Speaker 1: of the neck. Alexandria Marizano Lesanovich, the author of the
29:11
Speaker 1: Fact of a Body, a Murder, and a Memoir, when
29:16
Speaker 1: you heard this confession, you stated that it immediately brought
29:20
Speaker 1: back the horrible memories of your childhood and your grandfather's
29:26
Speaker 1: assault on you. How did you ever reconcile that was
29:31
Speaker 1: your grandfather ever brought to justice? Not only was he
29:35
Speaker 1: not brought to justice, but he wasn't thought of as
29:39
Speaker 1: a criminal. What what? I'm sorry? Not only was he
29:43
Speaker 1: not brought to justice, but he wasn't thought of as
29:45
Speaker 1: a criminal. What do you mean by that? Oh? I
29:50
Speaker 1: mean that you know, in my family, we just didn't
29:53
Speaker 1: talk about the abuse. Um. It was basically forbidden to
29:56
Speaker 1: do so. Not basically it was forbidden to do so. Um.
30:00
Speaker 1: And even as I was in law school, it never
30:04
Speaker 1: occurred to me that what he had done was criminal.
30:07
Speaker 1: It wasn't until I was writing the book and thinking
30:11
Speaker 1: constantly of this murder as the crime in the book,
30:13
Speaker 1: which of course it is. It's a horrible crime in
30:15
Speaker 1: the book, that I slowly realized that actually I was
30:18
Speaker 1: writing about two crimes. I was actually writing about two criminals.
30:22
Speaker 1: And part of why I wanted to tell the story
30:25
Speaker 1: was to get at maybe the different ways that we
30:28
Speaker 1: sometimes think of abuse when it happens within a family.
30:30
Speaker 1: We sometimes don't recognize that what has happened is a crime.
30:36
Speaker 1: And so when I was, you know, writing this, I did.
30:41
Speaker 1: I did confront my grandfather when I was a teenager,
30:43
Speaker 1: and I don't I you know, I looked back now
30:46
Speaker 1: at that eighteen year old who went off to confront him,
30:48
Speaker 1: and I am in awe of her bravery. You know,
30:50
Speaker 1: I think often actually of that. I went to the
30:53
Speaker 1: apartment building where he was living, and I remember so
30:56
Speaker 1: vividly the walk down the hallway to his apartment where
30:59
Speaker 1: I was going to finally speak the words allowed to
31:01
Speaker 1: him that no one had ever confronted him on I'm
31:05
Speaker 1: all that girls pratfray. And when I confronted him, you know,
31:10
Speaker 1: he didn't deny it, and he certainly didn't apologize for it.
31:14
Speaker 1: He was almos suppostful about it. But then he called
31:20
Speaker 1: me the next day and asked me if I forgave him.
31:23
Speaker 1: No apology, just asked me if I forgave him, which
31:27
Speaker 1: in its way was an acknowledgement of all the harm
31:30
Speaker 1: he had done. I don't know, I just that makes
31:32
Speaker 1: me so angry to hear that he asked you to
31:35
Speaker 1: forgive him, because now the onus is on you that
31:38
Speaker 1: you have to forgive and oh, that is so wrong,
31:45
Speaker 1: that the honest is on you to forgive him and
31:48
Speaker 1: another thing. And please don't be angry with me, Alexandria. Please,
31:54
Speaker 1: what were your parents doing during all of this when
31:57
Speaker 1: you had to go confront him? You told your parents, right,
32:00
Speaker 1: I did tell my parents, And I think in some ways,
32:02
Speaker 1: you know, there are many reasons I wrote this book,
32:04
Speaker 1: but I think in some ways I partially wrote this
32:06
Speaker 1: book to understand my parents choices, because it's very different
32:10
Speaker 1: when you're sort of living the memories, you see them
32:13
Speaker 1: only from your own perspective, but when you're actually writing
32:16
Speaker 1: about people, you have to try to imagine or try
32:18
Speaker 1: to understand, um, what they might have been thinking. And
32:23
Speaker 1: my grandparents, my parents rather chose not to confront him. Um.
32:26
Speaker 1: They chose actually to keep the whole thing a secret.
32:28
Speaker 1: They did make sure that he wasn't alone with us
32:30
Speaker 1: again in a situation where he could molest us. Um.
32:33
Speaker 1: But you know, they kept him coming to the house,
32:36
Speaker 1: which was very very hard for me when I was
32:38
Speaker 1: growing up, and very hard for me when I was
32:39
Speaker 1: a teenager, very hard for me afterwards too. Um. And
32:43
Speaker 1: so part of writing this was to try to understand
32:47
Speaker 1: the way that the choices that they made on the
32:49
Speaker 1: one hand, I really think kept our family together, you know,
32:52
Speaker 1: but on the other hand, caused these deep fissures and
32:55
Speaker 1: these deep, deep hurts. And you know, I've heard from
32:59
Speaker 1: so many people since this book came out. I'll tell you,
33:02
Speaker 1: for the first four months after this book came out,
33:04
Speaker 1: I got between one and three emails a day from
33:07
Speaker 1: people who had been abused and whose families kept it
33:11
Speaker 1: a secret, and who were talking about the things that
33:14
Speaker 1: the book had opened up inside of them. And one
33:16
Speaker 1: of them is sort of trying to understand this stigma
33:21
Speaker 1: and this secrecy and this silence that often attaches to abuse,
33:26
Speaker 1: and specifically the stigma attaches to the abuse victims, and
33:29
Speaker 1: people don't want to talk about it um and I
33:31
Speaker 1: think that's part of what allows it to continue. Can
33:35
Speaker 1: I ask you something, Alexandria Morizana Lesnevitch, who's channeled all
33:40
Speaker 1: of that that you're hearing right now into this incredible work,
33:47
Speaker 1: the fact of a body a murder in a memoir
33:50
Speaker 1: in later life, as you're writing this book, did you
33:53
Speaker 1: ask your parents why they did not confront anymore? Did they?
33:56
Speaker 1: And you didn't know about it. What do they say.
34:00
Speaker 1: They said, actually that they couldn't and I knew this
34:02
Speaker 1: that they couldn't, and it's in the book. They consulted
34:03
Speaker 1: a psychologist at the time who told him that the
34:07
Speaker 1: best thing to do would be to model not being
34:09
Speaker 1: affected by it. And I think that that was the
34:11
Speaker 1: advice that was given in a certain time period, you know. Um,
34:15
Speaker 1: And part of my well, wait, the advice was to
34:18
Speaker 1: do what to model it not having an impact, so
34:21
Speaker 1: not to make a big deal out of it, not
34:23
Speaker 1: to you know, not to sort of confront him, not
34:25
Speaker 1: to you know, to just model that maybe it didn't matter.
34:29
Speaker 1: And I think that that was maybe the advice given
34:32
Speaker 1: in a certain time period. Um, okay, that make actually
34:36
Speaker 1: makes me feel a tiny modicum better that they tried
34:41
Speaker 1: to do something. Absolutely, they tried to do it just discounted.
34:44
Speaker 1: They went, They sought out a professionally, said what do
34:47
Speaker 1: we do? What's the best thing for Alexandria, And that's
34:49
Speaker 1: what they were told. So that's what they did. Absolutely,
34:52
Speaker 1: And part of what I wanted to capture was the
34:55
Speaker 1: cost of that, right, like everybody was doing. But I
34:57
Speaker 1: think one of the hard things about this story is
34:59
Speaker 1: that the families were doing what they thought was best.
35:03
Speaker 1: You know, you see this too. And Ricky Langley's family, um,
35:06
Speaker 1: which really struggled. His family really struggled, and when he
35:10
Speaker 1: as a young man started to struggle, they took him
35:12
Speaker 1: to a psychologist. You know, they tried to do what
35:15
Speaker 1: they thought was best. Well, this is something that I know,
35:17
Speaker 1: Alexandri and I'm coming right back to you. And unlike
35:21
Speaker 1: for Dr Chloe Carmichael and Joe Scott Morgan and the
35:24
Speaker 1: Duke to take this in as well. Um, Laura lay
35:28
Speaker 1: Gilroy comes home, calls for her son, who had been
35:31
Speaker 1: outside playing. She didn't get a response. She went to
35:35
Speaker 1: the Lawrence house, where her baby often played. Langley answered
35:39
Speaker 1: the door. Gilroy asked him if he had seen her son.
35:43
Speaker 1: He said, no, Okay, you know that just reminded me
35:49
Speaker 1: of something. Okay, do you remember the very first murder? Okay,
35:55
Speaker 1: Kaine and Enable and they come and say, where's your brother?
36:00
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know the very first murder.
36:04
Speaker 1: She comes and says, where is Jeremy. I don't know,
36:06
Speaker 1: I haven't seen him. She goes to go search for
36:09
Speaker 1: him and then comes back to call nine one one.
36:13
Speaker 1: Right after that, he Ricky Langley makes his own nine
36:18
Speaker 1: one one call to report the boy missing and then
36:22
Speaker 1: pretends to help the mother look for the boy. They
36:28
Speaker 1: start to search the wooded area. A command center is
36:32
Speaker 1: set up, a search was conducted throughout the weekend. Finally,
36:40
Speaker 1: on that Monday, police get information that there was a
36:42
Speaker 1: convicted child molester named Ricky Langley whose last address was
36:47
Speaker 1: in the area. What happened then, Joe Scott Morgan, How
36:54
Speaker 1: was Jeremy's body found? And this is after all the subterfuge,
36:57
Speaker 1: his own nine one one call, him ending to help
37:00
Speaker 1: find the boy after he'd just stuffed a dirty sock
37:03
Speaker 1: in his mouth. How was the body found? Joe Scott
37:06
Speaker 1: Morgan found in the home of Ricky Langley in a
37:11
Speaker 1: closet um placed in there by this person who had,
37:17
Speaker 1: you know, initially attempted to aid in search. And it's
37:22
Speaker 1: quite striking as well. One of one of the things
37:26
Speaker 1: that's brought forward in this is that when Laurela, the
37:29
Speaker 1: mother had initially come searching for her little boy. Uh
37:34
Speaker 1: Alexander points out in her work that that um that
37:39
Speaker 1: he was, that initially he had laid him out on
37:42
Speaker 1: the bed covered with a Dick Tracy blanket, if you will,
37:46
Speaker 1: a cartoon character, and the mother had come to the
37:49
Speaker 1: house initially looking for her little boy. The b begun
37:52
Speaker 1: that he had carried leaned against the wall there. Uh
37:55
Speaker 1: and this you know, the cycle continues until finally the
38:00
Speaker 1: young young boy's body is actually found uh, in the
38:03
Speaker 1: home of Ricky Langland. I want to go to Dr
38:06
Speaker 1: Chloe Carmichael joining us psychologists out of Manhattan. We're talking
38:12
Speaker 1: about the horrific molestation and murder of a six year
38:15
Speaker 1: old little boy, Jeremy Gilroy, against the backdrop of this
38:23
Speaker 1: incredible book, The Fact of a Body, a Murder and
38:25
Speaker 1: a Memoir by Alexandria Marzano Lesanovitch joining us, Dr Chloe.
38:32
Speaker 1: I keep thinking about what Alexandria said about her own
38:38
Speaker 1: horrific moments as a child when she was assaulted by
38:43
Speaker 1: her grandfather and it all came rushing back to her
38:49
Speaker 1: and she can actually feel his hands on her body
38:52
Speaker 1: again as she heard testimony and evidence in this case.
38:57
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about the advice the parents were given by
39:00
Speaker 1: a psychologist to try to minimize what happened, not make
39:03
Speaker 1: a big deal out of it at the time, to
39:05
Speaker 1: help Alexandria heal. What do you make of that? Dr
39:09
Speaker 1: Chloe Carmichael, Thanks Nancy, that's such a such an important question. UM.
39:15
Speaker 1: So it is true that we don't want to suggest
39:17
Speaker 1: to a child that's something like this has to define them. UM.
39:22
Speaker 1: But but we do definitely want to model for the
39:25
Speaker 1: child that the abuser does need to be held accountable,
39:29
Speaker 1: and we want to praise the child for speaking up.
39:31
Speaker 1: We want to make the child, UM know that the
39:34
Speaker 1: adults will stand around them and support them, and we
39:36
Speaker 1: also want to model that we will insist that the
39:40
Speaker 1: abuser get help and support and be held accountable. UM.
39:45
Speaker 1: You know, Alexandria, you're you know, such a brave person
39:48
Speaker 1: to be able to share all of this, UM and
39:50
Speaker 1: and to put this out for us to to understand together.
39:54
Speaker 1: And in that particular case, I also can't help. But wonder, UM,
39:58
Speaker 1: you know about your grand father's relationship with you know,
40:02
Speaker 1: either the mother or the father that ultimately you know,
40:05
Speaker 1: decided to UM suggest that the healthiest thing here to
40:10
Speaker 1: do would be to keep it quiet. UM. Sometimes these
40:13
Speaker 1: family patterns do get transmitted. You know. There's been a
40:17
Speaker 1: lot of controversy for some reason as to whether Ricky Langley,
40:21
Speaker 1: a known pedophile, assaulted six year old Jeremy before his murder,
40:28
Speaker 1: and I'd like to direct everyone's attention to the Court
40:32
Speaker 1: of Appeals of Louisiana, Third Circuit, Louisiana versus Ricky Joseph Langley,
40:37
Speaker 1: and this decision was April six, two thousand and eleven.
40:41
Speaker 1: The facts has laid out and they go back to
40:45
Speaker 1: the trial transcript, which is undisputed as to what happened
40:49
Speaker 1: at trial. Granted there were several trials, but it was
40:53
Speaker 1: not disputed what the defendants said. The defendants said that
41:00
Speaker 1: at from the moment he saw the six year old boy,
41:04
Speaker 1: he quote wanted him, that he wanted to molest him.
41:08
Speaker 1: On the friday that he murdered the six year old child, Jeremy,
41:13
Speaker 1: the child was at the house playing with Lawrence's son,
41:16
Speaker 1: but Jeremy left when Mrs Lawrence and her son left
41:19
Speaker 1: to visit a relative. He later returned with a BB
41:23
Speaker 1: gun while the defendant was there alone and asked if
41:26
Speaker 1: his little friend was there. The defendant said, come in
41:30
Speaker 1: and visit, so Jeremy came in and put his BB
41:33
Speaker 1: gun down in the front room, where it was later
41:35
Speaker 1: spotted as Joseph Scott Morgan told you still sitting in
41:39
Speaker 1: the front room. Defendants said he knew then that he
41:44
Speaker 1: would quote mess with the child unless someone came home
41:50
Speaker 1: where the child left immediately. Langley goes on to state
41:53
Speaker 1: that while Jeremy was playing, he went up behind him,
41:59
Speaker 1: put his arm around his neck, lifted him off the
42:02
Speaker 1: floor and choked him, and that he knew then he
42:07
Speaker 1: was going to kill the six year old child. He
42:11
Speaker 1: stated that Jeremy was kicking and that his little boots
42:15
Speaker 1: came off his feet. He was kicking so hard to live.
42:19
Speaker 1: He goes on to state he quote felt enjoyment while
42:24
Speaker 1: he was choking the six year old child, that when
42:28
Speaker 1: Jeremy quit moving, he carried him to his Langley's bedroom
42:35
Speaker 1: and laid him on the bed. That he then put
42:38
Speaker 1: his penis in the child's mouth and ejaculated. He states
42:46
Speaker 1: to Jeremy left Jeremy there and went about the task
42:50
Speaker 1: of doing laundry. At some point, Jeremy was making noises,
42:55
Speaker 1: and he then put a ligature around his neck, choked him,
42:59
Speaker 1: pulling the guitar as hard as he could, tying the
43:02
Speaker 1: ends of the court together, and stuffed a sock in
43:05
Speaker 1: Jeremy's mouth. Those are the facts as recited by the
43:11
Speaker 1: Court of Appeals of Louisiana, Third Circuit. Those are the
43:17
Speaker 1: facts as we know them now. Alexandria Marzano Lessanovich ended
43:24
Speaker 1: up working on this case as an intern at a
43:28
Speaker 1: law firm tasked with getting Langley out of the death penalty. Alexandria,
43:37
Speaker 1: when you look back on your task of saving this
43:41
Speaker 1: guy from the death penalty, and you contrast that with
43:45
Speaker 1: the facts that I have just recited from the trial transcript,
43:51
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts? You know? I I You said
43:54
Speaker 1: something earlier that had really stayed with me, Nancy, when
43:57
Speaker 1: you talked about how one thing about circumstance evidence means
44:00
Speaker 1: that we can tell a story out of it, and
44:03
Speaker 1: this case was really a contest between stories. So, for example,
44:07
Speaker 1: one of the really riveting facts you just gave us
44:10
Speaker 1: that Langley ejaculated into Jeremy's mouth. It's really important to
44:15
Speaker 1: note that at one trial that was given as a fact,
44:18
Speaker 1: but at other trials that was not only disputed, but
44:21
Speaker 1: in fact, there was no physical evidence of it. So
44:24
Speaker 1: that when they other than his statement and the sperm
44:26
Speaker 1: on the boys teacher, that when when they did uh,
44:30
Speaker 1: testing in Jeremy's mouth and would have expected to find ejaculate,
44:34
Speaker 1: and when they tested the contents of Jeremy's stomach that
44:37
Speaker 1: was not found. Interesting. So, Joe Scott Morgan, we have
44:42
Speaker 1: him stating exactly what he did, and you've got the
44:49
Speaker 1: boy lying on the bed and all the other facts
44:51
Speaker 1: that he stated in his confession are corroborated by the
44:55
Speaker 1: physical evidence. There is the child's teach shirt covered in
45:01
Speaker 1: his ejaculate. Um, I get the sense that we're now
45:06
Speaker 1: splitting hairs as to whether he ejaculated in his mouth
45:11
Speaker 1: or not. Just Scott, can you help me out forensically?
45:15
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't necessarily know that that there would
45:18
Speaker 1: be ejaculate uh readily visible or are detectable in the
45:23
Speaker 1: child's mouth. But what we do know is that, uh,
45:28
Speaker 1: I know it wouldn't be detectable in his stomach. Yeah,
45:31
Speaker 1: that would. But keep what was alluded to in the
45:36
Speaker 1: in the decision that you read, he went back. It
45:39
Speaker 1: says that he went back and actually facilitated the literature
45:42
Speaker 1: because he heard him moving. Now, he he might not
45:46
Speaker 1: have been able to necessarily ingest in what we would
45:50
Speaker 1: normally think. But yeah, I mean you would think that
45:53
Speaker 1: in a manner which we would normally think. But he
45:57
Speaker 1: he was still alive for that period of tom and end.
46:00
Speaker 1: But what we do know is that there was ejaculate
46:02
Speaker 1: that was tied back to this person on the shirt.
46:05
Speaker 1: And this is this is an example of things that
46:08
Speaker 1: I've seen in the past, particularly with individuals that are
46:12
Speaker 1: basically necrophiles, after they've taken someone's life. In serial cases
46:17
Speaker 1: I've been involved in, they they long to have a
46:21
Speaker 1: control over an individual and then to stand over them
46:24
Speaker 1: and uh and masturbate over bodies. And this is something
46:28
Speaker 1: that you can see in the literature over and over
46:30
Speaker 1: and over again. It is kind of a splitting hair's
46:34
Speaker 1: issue here. What we do know is that there was
46:37
Speaker 1: some type of sexual contact. The interesting thing though, is
46:40
Speaker 1: was it anti mortem or prior post mortem? I have
46:44
Speaker 1: a question, just curious, Alexandra, why does it matter if
46:50
Speaker 1: he ejaculated in the boy's mouth or not. You know,
46:54
Speaker 1: it's important to note that Laura A. Gillary believes her
46:57
Speaker 1: son was not molested. Why Why is that important? Because
47:02
Speaker 1: the facts really speak for themselves, don't they. You know, then,
47:05
Speaker 1: and then I think we wouldn't have had three trials.
47:07
Speaker 1: But the spot of ejaculate that we've talked about was
47:10
Speaker 1: actually on the back of his shirt, right, so if
47:13
Speaker 1: he were lying on his back. I mean, one of
47:15
Speaker 1: the things that was interesting about this case to me
47:18
Speaker 1: is just that the facts can appear to be so simple,
47:21
Speaker 1: and yet we have three trials and we never quite
47:23
Speaker 1: nailed down what happened. And I think one of the
47:25
Speaker 1: reasons that it is so important is because it goes
47:28
Speaker 1: to sometimes this unknowability of the past. You know, I
47:32
Speaker 1: saw this in my own life, that there were facts
47:35
Speaker 1: and the abuse that were very very clear, and then
47:37
Speaker 1: there were things that my body would hold or that
47:40
Speaker 1: lived his memories inside me that I would never quite understand.
47:44
Speaker 1: And I think it goes to what we're doing in
47:47
Speaker 1: some ways when we decide whether someone is going to
47:49
Speaker 1: live or die in the death penalty case, but also
47:51
Speaker 1: what we're doing when we tell ourselves a story out
47:54
Speaker 1: of our own lives and try to make peace with
47:57
Speaker 1: the to some extent, the irreconcilable, our annewable past, is
48:01
Speaker 1: that we try to figure out how to make sense.
48:03
Speaker 1: Dr Chloe Carmichael joining us along with Alexandria Marzano Lezanovitch.
48:09
Speaker 1: Dr Chloe Alexandra brought up guys with me is Dr
48:14
Speaker 1: Chloe carmichael website, Anxiety tools dot com, Anxiety tools dot com.
48:21
Speaker 1: Dr Chloe, Um, Alexandria is referring to the I guess
48:29
Speaker 1: dispute of facts, which I don't really see. That the
48:33
Speaker 1: boy's dead, my strangulation with a defendant seman on his shirt,
48:39
Speaker 1: and all the facts corroborate both the childless station and murder,
48:43
Speaker 1: so I'm not quite sure I see the issue. But
48:50
Speaker 1: Dr Chloe, the fact that Alexandra has brought up the
48:53
Speaker 1: child's mother, Laurelie refused to believe that her child was molested,
48:58
Speaker 1: even with a known pedophile that say that he wanted
49:02
Speaker 1: to molest the boy since he first saw him, and
49:05
Speaker 1: that he molested him horribly as he died. Why would
49:09
Speaker 1: a mother not want to accept that fact about her
49:13
Speaker 1: child's murder, that he was also molested. Yes, Nancy, that's
49:16
Speaker 1: a that's a very it's a very painful question UM
49:19
Speaker 1: to confront, because of course Jeremy's mother has been through
49:22
Speaker 1: so much already and um having having lost her son,
49:26
Speaker 1: and on a primal level, Um, even though obviously it's
49:29
Speaker 1: not her fault, there's a part of her that may
49:32
Speaker 1: feel as if she failed to protect her son, and
49:36
Speaker 1: so the more gruesome and the more horrible that her
49:38
Speaker 1: son's death was, the more guilty and painful that she
49:43
Speaker 1: might feel inside. So it's possible that there's just a
49:47
Speaker 1: limit to how much she can understand and grasp here,
49:51
Speaker 1: and sometimes the mind just kind of shuts off at
49:54
Speaker 1: a certain point, and that might actually be the breaking
49:57
Speaker 1: point here. Everyone with me. Alexandria Marizano Lesnevich, author of
50:03
Speaker 1: an incredible book, The Fact of a Body, a Murder
50:08
Speaker 1: and a Memoir. Dr Chloe Carmichael joining me, psychologist out
50:12
Speaker 1: of Manhattan, her website Anxiety tools dot Com, forensics expert,
50:18
Speaker 1: Professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott Morgan
50:22
Speaker 1: and Alan Duke joining us from l A. Alexandria, Where
50:27
Speaker 1: does the case stand now? What was the resolution in
50:31
Speaker 1: the murder case of Ricky Langley? He is serving a
50:34
Speaker 1: life sentence and he will always be serving a life sentence.
50:38
Speaker 1: He will be in prison until he does so. At
50:40
Speaker 1: the end of the day, Ricky Langley has escaped the
50:43
Speaker 1: death penalty, and seemingly everyone goes about their business except
50:49
Speaker 1: Alexandria Marzano Wesnovich and her incredible book The Fact of
50:53
Speaker 1: a Body, A Murder and a Memoir. Thank you everyone.
50:57
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off goodbye friend,