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Voddie Baucham, - Calling & Vocation Panel - Session 3 x Tom Ascol & Travis Allen · Voddie Baucham Sermons

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: How are we doing tonight? Was that good? I so
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: much enjoyed both of those presentations, both of those sermons. Really,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: really good. But you did notice that we're talking about
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: two aspects of vocation or calling. Voti was focused on
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: the local church, our calling into the local church as
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Christians and Tom broadened it out to think more about
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: the Christians' calling in society. We need to bring those
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: two together, don't we? So I just want to pitch
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: a question. What is primary? If we think about calling,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: what's primary and why? Like, which sermon of yours is better?
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: If we've got to listen to one.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: They're two sides of the same coin, right? I mean,
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: we are equipped... in that community, right? And encouraged in
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: that community so that we can be effective outside, you know?
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: So it's not an either or. It's a both and. And,
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: you know, sometimes our, and for some of us, our
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: priority will be the one or the other, right? If
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: you're serving in pastoral ministry, um, and that's where your
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: calling is, then you, you, you really are, um, giving
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: more of your life and yourself, um, you know, to
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: that one area or calling where someone, you know, else
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: may be giving more of their, um, life and, and
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: gifts to that outside calling. But in the end, um,
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: It all works together. Yeah, I would agree with that.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: The call to Christ is to be part of the
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: body of Christ. As you mentioned, you can't have Christ
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: fully and reject his body, reject his bride.
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: So that's where we grow. That's where we learn. That's
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: where we are equipped. And we do that together. We
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: do life together. We assemble. The church is the assembly.
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: But we're not assembled 24-7. And we have our lives
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: that have various spheres of opportunity to impact our callings individually,
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: but it's that called community that enables us to continue
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: on being what God's called us to do and the
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: opportunities He's given us individually.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you see that pattern in Ephesians, Ephesians 4-6, where
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: you see Paul teaching about the local church in Ephesians 4,
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: and then there's the effect of the Spirit's filling and
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: the Word of Christ dwelling in us richly going into
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: the family, in the home, and then outside into the workplace,
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: underneath authority out there. So you see that connection all
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: the way through. Two sides of the same coin, indeed.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Why is it so vital then that a Christian, even
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: if he is spending a lot of time outside the
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: home in a vocational, you know, something outside the home,
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: a vocation, I mean, you've got politicians, you've got people
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: who work in various manufacturing or any kind of industry,
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: why is it vital that he must be in that
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: local church developing that intimacy for the good of his calling?
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: You know, we need and have to have the ordinary
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: means of grace, right? I mean, that work in us,
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: that sanctifying work in us where we're growing in grace
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: is is something that depends greatly on those ordinary means
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: of grace. And sitting under and devoting ourselves to those
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: ordinary means of grace, the ministry of His Word and
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: the ways that His Word ministers to us. So, I mean,
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: it's vital. There's nothing without that.
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the church isn't an afterthought with God. And the
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: church is the way that he matures us. The church
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: is the way that he will develop us and will
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: ultimately equip us to be useful in whatever spheres we have.
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: So the idea that you can follow Christ, know Christ,
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: be a faithful Christian and intentionally separate yourself from the
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: church is just a foreign idea to the scripture. There
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: may be circumstances. You can be in prison. You can
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: be sick. You can go to war, whatever. There might
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: be things like that, but those are the exceptions to
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: the rule. If you are intentionally staying away from the
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: kind of community Bodhi talked about, and you think you
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: are following Christ, there's something bad wrong in your thinking.
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: And I've had this conversation a lot of times as
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: a pastor with people that are pretty much what you
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: were describing. Just start going down the list with them.
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  Speaker 3: Look at the things that you cannot do, that the
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  Speaker 3: Bible calls you to do, You just can't do it.
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  Speaker 3: You're not doing it because you're not living with God's
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  Speaker 3: people in a covenant relationship in a church. And so
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: for you to think that you're okay with God or
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: that you're growing as a Christian while you're neglecting all
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: of these things, you've just figured out a way to
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: kind of carve out what you think is Christianity or
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  Speaker 3: vital Christianity to the neglect of what God has actually said.
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  Speaker 3: And it's an indication of just kind of how badly
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: you've been duped and you really need people who aren't
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  Speaker 3: you speaking into your life.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: One of the, I've got to imagine there's a number
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: of influences. Let me just ask the question. What are
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: the influences, do you think, in our modern world that
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: make an online experience that, trying to build online community,
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  Speaker 1: build online intimacy? People reaching out to you thousands of
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: miles away, sharing very intimate things. Why do you think
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: that's more attractive to many people? What is it in
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  Speaker 1: our world that's creating that appetite? And causing them to
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: shun the in-person intimacy and experience?
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: I think there's been a transition and transformation in our
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: thinking and understanding and worldview. There's a generation of people
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: who have grown up in an environment where everything that
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: they consider to be real happens on a screen. Like
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  Speaker 2: everything they do and everything they've done, you know, some
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: for all their lives, right? Everything happens on a screen.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: Everything that you want, everything that you need, you get
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: it on the screen. You don't cook your food. You
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: go to your phone and, you know, go to an
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  Speaker 2: app and you tell somebody to bring it. to you, right?
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  Speaker 2: We don't go to class or go to school. You
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  Speaker 2: do it all online. I mean, so many of these things, right?
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  Speaker 2: It's life on the screen. And it's becoming more and
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  Speaker 2: more pervasive. Not to say that screens are inherently bad things, right?
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  Speaker 2: Like I said in the message, it's been a great
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  Speaker 2: benefit and it's a great blessing to be able to
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  Speaker 2: have access to some of the things that we have
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  Speaker 2: access to. But there's a cost to it as well.
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  Speaker 1: His answer stands.
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, amen. There's a couple of books I'd recommend. One
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: is Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death. It's dated, but
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: it's still very, very relevant. And then I've just forgotten
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: the author's name, The Shallows. What's that guy's name?
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  Speaker 2: Nick?
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know what you're talking about. What the internet
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: is doing to our brains.
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  Speaker 3: To our brains, yeah.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: It's a fantastic book.
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, we're being discipled 24-7 by technology. The
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: content is one thing, but it's the method of delivery.
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: We've gone from a linear age and way of thinking
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: to a photographic image-based way of thinking. And the commercials,
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: television commercials. I don't even know if people still make
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: television commercials.
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  Speaker 2: I don't.
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  Speaker 3: Watch television shows the way that they used to be watched.
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: But the commercials, you know, whether it's the Nike commercial,
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  Speaker 3: just do it. You know, you have 27 images, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom,
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  Speaker 3: just do it. There's no message there, but they, somebody
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: paid somebody a lot of money to figure out that's
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: a good way to get you to buy their shoes.
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  Speaker 3: And so we're just being discipled that way.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of smart people trying to get our
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: attention and keep our attention, keep us distracted, so we'll buy, buy, buy, buy, right?
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  Speaker 1: One of the things that I think young people especially
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: can observe about all their online heroes, or I shouldn't
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  Speaker 1: say all, but many online heroes is the fact that
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  Speaker 1: even within evangelicalism and even in some places in conservative,
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  Speaker 1: reformed evangelicalism, they find their online heroes are not nailed
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  Speaker 1: down to a local church. So they're on the move
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  Speaker 1: all the time. And there are some people, even in
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  Speaker 1: that sphere of who do a lot to curate their
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  Speaker 1: image and how they come across online, and they take
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  Speaker 1: several takes before they post it online. So there's a
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  Speaker 1: lot being done, I think, within our own circles. I
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  Speaker 1: think of... a pretty big name that fell. He's now
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  Speaker 1: passed away, but pretty significant scandal. And he was not
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  Speaker 1: nailed down to a local church. He was not under
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: the authority of a local church. If you could talk
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: to somebody like that in their younger days as they're
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  Speaker 1: building a ministry... What would you tell them to encourage
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  Speaker 1: them for the sake of those who hear them? What
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  Speaker 1: to do differently?
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  Speaker 3: Why?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's not new. I mean, Billy Graham lived
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  Speaker 2: his whole life in North Carolina, but he was a
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  Speaker 2: member of First Baptist Dallas, right?
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  Speaker 1: How does that work?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, how does that work? And how does First Baptist
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  Speaker 2: Dallas even allow that? They allow that because that... that
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  Speaker 2: idea is something that we accepted a long time ago.
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  Speaker 1: His name's on their rolls.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And we're more famous because that famous name
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  Speaker 2: is on our rolls. And I think that's something that
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: we have to just address from this biblical theological perspective, right?
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  Speaker 2: We have to have that theological argument of what the
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  Speaker 2: local church is, what the value of the local church is,
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  Speaker 2: And we have to press that upon people and confront that.
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  Speaker 1: What if they say something like, your calling is more
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  Speaker 1: to the local church. My calling is larger than that.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm more needful to the Lord. Obviously, He's
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  Speaker 1: given me these gifts. I've got to curate these gifts.
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  Speaker 1: I've got a stewardship of these gifts to give an
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  Speaker 1: account for. So they're arguing, they're making that argument.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, there's nothing larger.
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  Speaker 3: So you ain't special.
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  Speaker 1: I know.
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  Speaker 3: The word of God applies to you too. That's the thing.
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  Speaker 3: You're trying to teach the word, you're defying the word.
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: I've had an encounter with a guy locally like that, well-known.
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  Speaker 3: He's got a ministry, he's done some things, goes into
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: churches and does certain sorts of training. and was convinced
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  Speaker 3: he ought to do it at our church, and it
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  Speaker 3: just didn't go so well. I said, well, where are
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  Speaker 3: you a member? Oh, I'm not a member anywhere. He said, well,
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  Speaker 3: you're not going to do that here. So you're setting
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  Speaker 3: yourself up for a disaster. You're not special. You're not special.
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  Speaker 3: We all need what God has provided for every Christian
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  Speaker 3: in the church, and to think that you are safe
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  Speaker 3: by living outside of that. So what I would say
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  Speaker 3: to your question is, to a guy like that or
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  Speaker 3: myself is, man, you need to anchor your life with
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: the people of God. Be willing to know and be known.
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  Speaker 3: Have people in your life that are willing to hold
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  Speaker 3: you accountable.
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  Speaker 2: You need that.
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  Speaker 3: Everybody needs that. Nobody's above that. And it's a gift
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  Speaker 3: of God.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I don't want to make you feel uncomfortable,
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  Speaker 1: but here goes. How do you guys do that for
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: your own ministries? Who's watching your life and keeping you
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: anchored down?
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  Speaker 3: I stay in one church for 35 years.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 3: No, I mean, God's done that. And have godly elders.
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: You know, have elders that don't take any stuff off
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  Speaker 3: of you.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm trying to draw.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's really good, you know.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, I quit trying to fool these guys a
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: long time ago.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. It's essential. But you have to have a
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: commitment to that costly intimacy, right? Because you can... you know,
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: be a part of a church, right? And still not
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: have a commitment to that costly intimacy. And it's to
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: your own detriment, right? Our souls need to be shepherded.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: Every Christian needs that. The minute we start to believe
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: that our souls don't need to be shepherded, you know,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: we've made ourselves pray to that roaring lion who's seeking
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: whom he may devour, you know? And I live in
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: the land of lions. And they look for stragglers.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like one of those antelope out there with a
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: puffed up chest. Straying from the herd. Ain't going to happen.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: He's lunch.
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: Let me mention one other thing, too. I mean, this
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: is something I think every man needs to do this.
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: Every married man. You need to disciple your wife and
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: you need to help your wife to grow in grace.
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: And I haven't done as well at that as I
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: would like to have done. But my wife is one
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: of the best practical theologians I know. And so talk
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: about people that don't take anything off of me. You know,
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: I mean, she knows it. And if, you know, you
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: start getting these emails and people say, oh, man, we
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: love this. We love this. And I'm thinking, oh, it's
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: pretty good. My wife said, yeah, but you didn't pick
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: up your socks yesterday.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: And so. Yeah.
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: It's good to have a.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: You can preach a sermon, you can't keep your room clean.
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: And then you had a bunch of kids under that too.
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: Oh, I know. I used to think it was cute
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: when they would answer all those theological questions and catechism books,
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: but now they understand the issue is big enough to
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: apply them to their father. But it really is a
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: good thing. It's a gift. It's a blessing to cultivate
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: that in your marriage where don't squelch your wife and
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: help your wife to access the tools, the relationships in
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: the church, and opportunities to grow in grace, and then
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: help her to know how to call you out, to
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: not let you get away with stuff.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, embolden people around you to hold you accountable.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that's good.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: Vody, when you, this is kind of connecting with Tom's message,
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: when you made a decision to leave Houston to go
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: to Lusaka, How did you know that that was God's will?
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: I think just through your experience and what you had
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: to wrestle through, the painful experience, ripping part of your
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: heart out as you leave, you don't do that lightly.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: So I wonder if you could just take us through
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: a little bit of that decision-making. I think it's instructive,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: even if people aren't pastors, making decisions as well and
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: trying to figure out God's will for them.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and we left our two oldest kids here too.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: So yeah, and now three grandkids. But I would say
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: that the Lord called me to Zambia back in 2008.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: It was two years after we had started GFBC. I
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: went for the first time. And I really sensed the
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: Lord's calling.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: That's an awkward sense.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: In 2008.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: Right after you started it.
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  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah. I sensed the Lord's calling. I didn't know
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: what that would look like. I didn't know any of that.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: But I had that sense. But But there were two
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: boxes that needed to be checked off. One was my wife, right?
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: God gave me my wife, put me in a one-flesh
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: relationship with my wife so I don't come home and say,
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: you know, hey, guess what, you know? So it took
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: eight years for the Lord to call her. And so,
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: and then, even then, that wasn't a done deal. Because
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: when both of us had that sense, you know, I'm
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: part of an eldership. So what I didn't do was
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: come to my fellow elders and say, the Lord's called us,
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: we're going. I came to my fellow elders and I said,
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: here's where we are, what say you? And our elders
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: had the authority to say no to that. If they didn't,
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: then we're liars about what we say we believe. And
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: so we put that before our elders and ask them
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: to be our elders. You know, none of this, you know,
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: I had a dream, I had a vision, here it is,
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: we're gone, right? But I believe Hebrews 13, 17, right?
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: That these men are.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: Exercising that authority in my life and shepherding me and
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: my family. So that was the second step. And when
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: I brought it to them, you know, they spent some
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: time with it and then came back to us affirming
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: that call. And so it was only then that we
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: made the move.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: It's really helpful. A couple of our elders met with
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: a church member who Older man, retired, free to go,
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: means to go wherever he wants to go, and he
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: had the humility to come to the elders and say,
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: do you think I should do this, or do you
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: think I should do that? And he's praying through those issues.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: That's a remarkable testimony. It's not something you hear, especially
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: from somebody who's a type A leader, hard charger, That's
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: not what you hear. That's something to take note of
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: to cultivate that kind of humility.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: It's because of that that I needed it all the more.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: Because I would have the tendency left to my own
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: devices to be very impulsive, right? And to just go
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: and not think about all the things that need to
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: be thought about. And so I need those people in
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: my life who say, okay, great, but what about this?
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: Because I'm not thinking about that. I'm going, squirrel. It's
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: incredibly important. Again, it's important if we believe what we
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: say we believe. If It's one thing to say that
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: we believe, you know, the ecclesiology of the church, you know,
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: ought to be an eldership, right? But then do we
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: really believe that? And if we really believe that, how
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: do we function in a way that proves it, you know?
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: I just want to underscore that that fits exactly what
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: you said earlier about it's an ordinary means of grace.
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: So you're not looking for a vision or a dream
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: or some kind of three-by-five card floating down from heaven.
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: You're just saying, okay, this is what we want to do.
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: God's put this on our heart. Brothers, help us.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: It's ordinary.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: It's fascinating to see how many people, I think, Christians, evangelicals,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: have been groomed for decades... to do their thinking isolated
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: from the local church, away from the elders. They don't
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: see the elders as assets to them, but rather as
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: hindrances getting in the way of what they want. And
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: I think that really is... We are a culture that
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: has trained us to do exactly what you want. Just
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: do it, just do it, just do it.
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: I'm not the only pastor that has this experience. I know,
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: but people will come, and what they're looking for is
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: not really counsel. They're looking for affirmation on decisions already made.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: I made this decision... And whenever it comes out that way,
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: where God's told me or God's leading me, I just
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: listen and say, well, what do you think about that?
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: I say, well, why do you care what I think
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: about if God told you to do it? Who am
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: I to say anything? You've already heard from the Lord.
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: He told you to do something. I'm not going to
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: tell you not to do it. But it is that
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: exact thing you described. It's this individualistic, you know, God's
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: given me this, I'm going to do it, and I
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: want you to approve it and not question it, not
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: say anything that might set me back on my heels
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: to reconsider it. I refuse to play that game.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: Tom, your opening illustration, that was really helpful, the bricklayer,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: the wall builder, the cathedral builder. Just for folks who
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: may be on the brink of a decision that they've
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: got to make, and they are wondering about, what if
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: I don't find significance in my work? I've got legitimate
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: questions about that. Where is the line between maybe sin
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: and righteousness on this issue. Maybe, for example, it might
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: be a misuse of your time and talents to be
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: full-time professional Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and definitely a waste of your time.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: Not time to try, right?
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: To try.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: I got you.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: But if you did have the time or talents to
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: do something else, and this is what God has called
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: you to do, you could make different decisions. You did
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: make different decisions. Same thing for people who aren't in
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: vocational ministry but are in other vocations. Where is the
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: line with that maybe godly discontentment and then maybe discontentment, discontentment?
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying?
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I quoted Calvin from Book 3 of his Institutes
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: where he talks about avoiding flitting because you're settled on
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: your sense of being called by God. You've been given
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: a station. And it's whatever... God's commanded, you got to
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: do what he's forbidden, you can't do, and now we're
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: in the realm of, all right, you're free to do
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: or not do, and you want wisdom, you want to
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: get the most bang for your buck, and God invests
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: things in people. Sometimes we can't see everything God's invested
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: in us. You know, Augustine did not want to become
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: the bishop of Hippo, and they dragged him into doing that.
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: Calvin did not want to be the pastor in Geneva,
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: and he was threatened with damnation.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: If he didn't do it scrawny finger pointed in his that's.
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: Right you know god will damn your studies if you
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: don't stay here so you know um so they're they
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: had it in them they didn't see it and that's
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: where the body comes in that's where good counsel from
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: other believers come in too but i think it's all
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: it's really good too to evaluate yourself say okay you
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: know i can do this over here and it could
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: be good for the kingdom but i can do this
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: over here and it can be good for the kingdom.
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: You've got two good choices. You seek counsel, and then
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: you take your choice, and you're confident that when you
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: step out that God is going to own that, and
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: if it flops, okay, well, then it'll flop to his glory,
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: and maybe you'll get up and do something different in
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: the wake of that. Personally, the way I've operated personally
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: with that is with such a sense of God's providence.
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: I know right now I'm where I'm supposed to be.
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: Not because I'm so smart or holy or anything, but
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: because God's sovereign. So if God didn't want me on
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: this stage right now, I wouldn't be on this stage
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: right now. That's his providence. He's got me in Cape
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: Coral pastoring this church. Does that mean I'm never going
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: to do anything different? I'm in this vocation. I'm a mechanic.
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: I'm never going to be a school teacher.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: No, maybe.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: If I have an inclination for that and I learn
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: and figure out a way to do that and can
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: do it and people say, yeah, that'd be a good thing,
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: you would serve the kingdom well in that, then I
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: think I'm free to pursue it. But the burden of
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: proof is always on the move. I am where I
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: am by God's providential arrangement. If it's lawful, I'm not
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: playing games and being honest and open, then the burden
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: of proof is the change.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: And it happens.
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: It happens. But that's been just a helpful, safe guide
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: for me through the years.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: Amen.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: You mentioned, I believe it was you mentioning Luther and
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: Martin Luther developing a, or rediscovering or developing or articulating
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: a doctrine of vocation. And especially in Germany at that
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: time where you've got a massive change going on. I mean,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: the rise of banking and the loans being made to
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: people that are merchants that can then break free from
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: some of the class structures and strictures and rigid class structure.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: So there's a change, and it's freeing people up not
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: to be stuck in some particular rut. So I know
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: it's an oversimplification to say it this way, but when
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: you're given, when you're freed from being, say, being a slave,
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: being stuck following the plow, or your father was a bootmaker,
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: so you're a bootmaker, and it goes back generations. Tinkers and...
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: tailors and all those other vocations that they were part,
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: it was part of their family. Now they're able to
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: make decisions. There's upward mobility, sideward mobility. That's a stewardship.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: There's a stewardship of choice in that. So how do
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: you encourage people to, especially think about many young people,
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: with choices in front of them? They're not in a
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: certain career. And you're thinking, Tom, about the good of society.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: How would you encourage Christian young people to think about
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: the stewardship of those choices, the kinds of decisions that
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: they should make, where the training they should pursue for
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: the good of the kingdom, for the good of the
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: body of Christ?
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: I think, first of all, what I would say is
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: you've got to do whatever is going to be best
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: for your soul.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: You've got to.
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: Do, if you're not well-grounded, biblically, spiritually, in a church
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: where you're getting good counsel. I mean, if those things
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: are iffy, then, you know, you might be able to
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: make a billion bucks. but it's not going to be
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: good for you, you know, these foundational things. So even
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: like education, you know, all of our kids went to
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: college that wanted to go to college. I guess all
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: of them went to college. I don't think they all graduated.
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: But our view of college was kind of like, you know,
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: the Israelites on the way out of Egypt, you know,
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: just take it for all you can and get what
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: you want that's good and that's fine. But don't worry
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: about a degree or anything like that. If you get
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: a degree, that's fine. But that's just kind of our attitude.
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: But they all went to college locally to stay in
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: this church. And I've had people say, you know, we're
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: looking at colleges across the land, and there's nothing wrong
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: with that. But my first piece of counsel to them
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: when they ask is, find a school that's got a
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: good church nearby. I wouldn't send a kid to unusual circumstances,
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: maybe exceptions. But under normal circumstances, I just wouldn't send
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: an 18-year-old off to a college where there's no church
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: So fundamentally, you got to do what's best for your soul.
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: And if this decision is going to take you away
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: from the path that's going to get you more anchored
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: in the word of God spiritually, I would discourage it
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: until you get those things settled. As that gets settled,
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: then man, where do you get the most bang for
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: your buck? You only got a few years to live.
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: How can you get the most out of it for
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: what really matters? And that might include finances. It might
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: include opportunities in different places of the world, but only
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: in a secondary way to what will bring most glory
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: to God. That's the battle. How do you figure that out,
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: that you can most glorify God? And those are judgment
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: calls at times. You mentioned upward mobility, sideward mobility. I'm
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: thinking about those two Moravians that offered to sell themselves
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: into slavery so they could get into a country as missionaries.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: That's called downward mobility. For the glory of God.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: But for the sake of the kingdom.
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: I'll be a slave if I can get the gospel
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: over there, It's that kind of mentality. I do think
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: it goes hand in hand with this idea of calling.
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: I am called by my Savior and commissioned to be
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: a part of his work in this world. And that's settled.
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: So now it's just the details of where do I
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: do that. the best and i can get counsel for
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: that and maybe this for one season of my life
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: it's going to be that for the other season and
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: you know we all get older and we can't do
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: as much as we used to when we were younger
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: hopefully we can think about things a little better than
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: when we were younger and so the stewardship of those
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: gifts can shift But man, it's bang for the buck
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: when you understand what the bang is.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: How different are these questions in Lusaka than they are
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: in Cape Coral?
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: They're different in the sense that opportunities are not the same.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: You know, this is the land of opportunity, right? They're
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: different in that regard. I think the unemployment rate in
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: Zambia is somewhere in in the 60s, percentage-wise. So they're
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: different in that sense.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: So how are you speaking to young people who come
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: to you with these same kind of questions? How are
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: you helping them to think through?
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the same way. The principles are the same. Regardless
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: of where you are, when there are fewer opportunities, it
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: makes it easier to to narrow things down, you know? Uh, but,
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: but yeah, we, we, we are.
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: When you're one of, one of 20 people applying for
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: the job.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's, and it's, it's, it's a stewardship, you know?
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: And for us, you know, one of the things that
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: we're really trying to help people, uh, our students at ACU,
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: for example, wrap their heads around is, is entrepreneurship and
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: creating opportunities, you know?
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: And, um, Well, that's where we may be coming together
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: is more and more Christians are getting shoved out of
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: the workplace because of their Christianity. I think more Christians
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: are thinking more about entrepreneurship as well here.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: I highly recommend that. One of the challenges we have
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: here is you've got this widespread, deeply held misunderstanding of
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: the nature of the Christian life as you talked about.
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: And so where that's not present, you know, you just,
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: you get these young people that have grown up with
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: misunderstandings or not really good teaching about the nature of
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: the Christian life anchored in a community of faith. And
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: they just, I mean, I've got this, I want to
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: do this, I want to do this, I can do that.
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: And you can just listen in the way they taught.
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: They've been better discipled by the world than they have
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: the church. It's just their values, their approaches to making decisions.
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: And so those are fundamental issues that need to be
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: remediated the best you can. It doesn't start when they're 18.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: So let's go to the other end of the age
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: spectrum and talk about people who post vocation, post career,
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: and now they've got some free time, could be limited means,
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: could be more means. Every time a new iPhone comes out,
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: it reinforces the idea in our culture that What's old
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: is useless. It's shelved. It's thrown away. So speak to
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: the people on the other side of that and say,
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: how do we deploy those people and get them invested
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: in the church, invested in the kingdom, and invested in
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: younger lives?
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: I think by pointing out just that, that that season
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: in your life is an opportunity to invest. And the
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: sad reality is people usually don't last very long when
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: they stop investing. You know? Uh, you just, the, the,
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: the idea of retiring and doing nothing is, first of all,
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: it's grossly unbiblical. Um, but, but secondly, it's not healthy. Um,
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: so we, we need to help people to realize that
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: and then to help them understand how great the needs are. Um,
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: it's amazing. And then people want to retire early, right?
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: Just when you're not dumb anymore, just when you know
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: something and are good at something and can probably be
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: teaching people and be more effective and fruitful, you take
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: your toys and go home. And that's bad stewardship. So
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: we have to help people understand that and understand how
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: valuable that can be in the body and in the
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: community at large as well.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry to interrupt you. How do you help them,
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: especially those who are 60 and above, to overcome the
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: intimidation that they have? These young people, if they have
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: a question, they don't ask somebody with gray hair. They
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: go to Google. They ask their question, they get their answer,
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: and they move on. Enough of that. Younger people become
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: wise in their own eyes. They kind of have a
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: lot of knowledge. Not a lot of wisdom, but a
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: lot of knowledge. And it's difficult, I think, for older
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: people to overcome that hurdle, that barrier that they feel.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: Do you guys sense that same thing as you're talking
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: to older people? And I was wondering how you overcome it.
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: I am one of those older people, so I'm kind
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: of feeling a little nervous here where you're going with
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: this question.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: Well, Tom, I wanted to talk about how outdated you are.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: No, but.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: Just wondering how, this is, you know, Florida is a
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: retirement community.
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: A lot of people come down here to live the
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: dream of John Piper, you know, picking up seashells.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: I got a picture from one of those guys today
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: on my phone that was sent to me on the beach,
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: picking up seashells.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: Showing you his seashells?
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: Well, one of the blessings in this church is we have,
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: over the years, we just had older people, retired people,
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: who could do a lot of things, and they just,
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: they invest, man. I mean, I could point to half
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: a dozen probably here tonight, that are mentoring, discipling, teaching, serving,
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: you know, driving people to places they need to get
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: that can't drive themselves, and filling in, talked to one
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: of our men tonight, he's volunteering, and so how did
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: you get these, do this, he said, well, I just
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: saw that there was a need, well, hey, I can
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: do this, and you know, he could be doing a
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: lot of other things with his time, but this is
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: something that he wants to do, can invest in. That
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: type of attitude, when our kids were young, when we
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: came to this church, it was exclusively with maybe, I
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: don't know, I think I was the youth group. My
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: wife and I were the youth group when we came
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: to this church. And so everybody else was retirement age
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: and above. But amongst those, you know, as things sifted
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: out over a few years, the ones that were left,
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: they were godly people. And it was just great to point,
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: for my kids to point to them and say, look
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: at brother so-and-so, look at sister so-and-so, be like her,
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: be like him. And that's a I don't know, I
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: suppose there might be some intimidation factors with our people.
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: I'm not much aware, but the way you frame that question,
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: I'd have to really think about it. Because there may
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: be some of that, but at least within the context
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: of the church, I would think that wouldn't be the norm.
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: I think that would probably be less than average. But
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: it might be there, I just might be unaware of it.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: Do you have anything on that? Or did I frame
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: the question wrong? No, no.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: All right. All right.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: I think that some of that older generation, the kind
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: of things that they can invest to younger lives, it
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: is exactly, as you said, that they have a new
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: chapter that's open in the book for them to give
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: themselves to the younger. You talked about risk of intimacy,
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: and you spoke as someone who's risked. I was wondering
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: what kind of risks have you personally gone through or
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: you've seen people go through that, you know, things can
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: come back to bite you and why is that worth it?
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: For a younger generation that is groomed to do everything online,
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: to keep people at a distance, why is that risk
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: worth it?
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: Because our souls need it. We need each other. We
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: need the body. It's... no one person has everything, right?
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: We're one body of many members and the body of
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: Christ is a rich blessing to us, a rich blessing
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: to our souls, right? And we, we may not even
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: realize it, but our souls crave it because that's what,
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: that's what we're made for, you know? Um, and so it,
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: it is, it is worth it. Um, it's hard you
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: know it's painful I had a couple of people come
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: up a couple of pastors come up afterwards you know
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: just kind of sharing not even details but just I
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: get you and it is that's you know that's but
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: that's who we are right that's who we are it's
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: like when you get married you know One of the
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: most difficult things about marriage for newly married people is
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: the disillusionment that happens when you have this idea that,
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: you know, our love is the greatest love in the
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: history of all loves. And because our love is so
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: great that it may be hard for other people, but
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: that's just because they don't have a love that is
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: a love like our love, which is the greatest love
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: in the history of all loves. And then all of
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: a sudden they run into a buzzsaw and it's difficult.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: And then they're, they want to go jump off a
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: building because if our love ran into this, then, you know,
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: and we, we, We end up disillusioned like that because
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: we don't understand that there is that risk to intimacy
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: and that we are sinners. And then we start telling
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: ourselves lies like, you know, if you really love me,
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: then you wouldn't sin against me like this. Well, it's
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: because I love you that we are living in such proximity.
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: And when two sinners live in proximity to one another,
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: they sin more against each other than they do against
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: the people who are way over there, right? So it's
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: because I love you that I sin against you so much.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: And so I think it's hugely problematic when we don't
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: understand this and when we don't prepare ourselves for this
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: and when we don't bring proper theological understanding to that
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: so that we let love cover a multitude of sins.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: So that we learn how to reconcile You know, it's just,
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: those are beautiful things that we desperately need.
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, how are you going to learn how to forgive
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: if you don't live close enough to people to offend you?
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: You know, I see it as part of my job
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: is teaching people how to forgive.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: I do it pretty well, too. I get that.
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: No, but it's true. I mean, you know, you don't
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: get hurt if you don't live that way and you
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: don't learn how to forgive. You don't learn how to
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: forgive as you've been forgiven, which we're called upon to do.
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: And that just goes with it. And so the consequences
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: and the story's not over too, man. I mean, that's
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: the other thing. You see things happen and you see
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: people walk away and you think, oh gosh, I can't
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: believe that. The story's not over. God's doing a thousand things.
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: And sometimes I like to think of my life like,
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: you know, there's this tapestry that God is weaving together.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: It's beautiful.
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: It's not finished yet. It's going to be awesome. And
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: he's put me down here in this little corner and
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: I get the opportunity to try to fix that corner
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: just right And if you look at that corner, it's
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: not much, but man, it is a part of this
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: whole deal. And so things right now might be all
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: messed up, but it's not over. So just live with that.
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: But there's another side of it too. And if you've
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: met people who've decided to bail on that risk, if
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: you've met people who've decided, no, I'm going to go
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: live my life in isolation, right? If you've ever had
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: the opportunity, to meet somebody who's done that for decades
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: or whatever, what you realize is that in avoiding this
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: risk and pain over here, they've embraced a pain that's
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: even deeper because we weren't made to live like that.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: They become two-dimensional people, very hollow inside and useless for
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: good work out there, too. Yeah, so that risk of...
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: That risk of either offending somebody else or being offended,
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: being hurt, all those things that they're trying to avoid
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: are the very things that God's trying to draw out
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: of our hearts to shape us more like Christ, conform
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: us to Him. How do you see then, let's just
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: maybe one final question I've got. How do you see
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: that then being attractive? It's an anti-Christian world. It's becoming
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: anti more so. How do you see that though Being
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: the sweet smell of Christ out there in the world,
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: even in a non-Christian world, an anti-Christian world, all the formation,
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: all the hurt, the shaping, the difficulty, the risk, the pain,
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: all the offending, confessing sin, asking forgiveness, being granted forgiveness,
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: all that stuff going on in the local church across generations.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: How is that then made attractive to people out there
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: in the workplace, in government, everywhere else? How are Christians
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: spreading the Savior of Christ that way?
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: I think in one sense it's inevitable. If you're getting
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: it and you're enjoying it, it's going to just exude
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: out of you. And that's happened. We all have those stories.
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: But I hear them pretty regularly from folks that are
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: in the workplace, in relationships with extended family. and there'll
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: be a death or a sickness or some tragedy, and
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: inevitably there's something like this. How did you stay so calm?
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: Or I don't know how you did it. Or your
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: church really rallied around you. And those things are just,
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: it's not because you're trying to do it, it's just
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: the way you live. And we can live in that
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: environment in some ways where we lose sight of the
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: fact that this is really different than what is out
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: there because we're living together in the church, but we
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: ought to welcome people into that, give them a taste
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: of that. I mean, the church, when it's functioning well,
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: helps to kind of put the gospel on display. That's
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: why church splits and disharmony are so wicked, because we're
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: sending a message, we're preaching a message that you can
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: be reconciled to God, we're preaching a message of love,
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: and we can't even get along with one another. And
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: it's just, we put a lie to the message we profess,
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: But whenever it's working, it's like, yeah, you know, man,
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: there's something different in your relationship. You call each other
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: brother and sister, it's like you mean it. And you
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: pick up the phone, you call somebody or text somebody,
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: and they're at your house. And they would drop everything
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: to help you. And that's the grace of God at work.
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: That's the way normal Christianity is. And whenever you put
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: that together and you cultivate it and you try to
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: keep the weeds out when they pop up and you
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: repent and you forgive and you get up and keep going...
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: There is something very compelling about that.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. And when we allow the Lord to
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: use that, he does. You know, when we don't hide
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: our life under a bushel. and live that and make
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: it known and don't try to pretend like we're perfect
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: or our life is perfect or anything else. It is
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: a fragrant aroma, you know, because people are, it's a lost, hurting,
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: and dying world, right? And we found the words of life.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: That's attractive, if we'll let it be known.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: Good word. Thank you very much. Maybe you can close
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: us in prayer.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's do that.
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: Why don't we stand up and pray? Father, we've talked
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: about wonderful things tonight and we've been reminded of your
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: grace and mercies to us over the course of lifetimes.
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: We can't help but offer up praise and thanksgiving to
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: you for your faithfulness. We know that we have fallen.
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: We know that we would fall a thousand times a
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: day if it weren't for your spirit who upholds us
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: and the grace that operates through your word and spirit
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: and leading us back to Christ, grounding us in him
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: and helping us to find our deepest longings and desires
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: and needs met in him. So we pray that you
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: would take what we've talked about this evening and help
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: us to sort through it, to evaluate what has been
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: said biblically and where we need to repent. Grant us
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: that grace. Lord, please make us quick repenters. Don't, don't,
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: Don't let us live trying to figure out ways to
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: justify our sin. Help us to see Christ and be
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: so convinced that the grace that is in him is
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: real and sufficient that we will quickly turn from sin,
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: confess it, look to him, live without condemnation. Where we've
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: been sinned against, help us to forgive. And where we've
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: sinned against others, Lord, help us to go and make
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: things right and build churches, build churches where this power
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: of the gospel is put on display and Help each
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: one of us in this room to be committed to
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: pursuing life together with other brothers and sisters in local
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: churches to that end. Dismiss us with your blessing tonight.
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: Go with us. Watch over us. We pray for you
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: to bless the conference tomorrow. Some will still be traveling in. Lord,
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: watch over them. Keep them safe. May we have a
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: sweet time together around your word. We pray in Jesus' name.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: Amen.