Latest / Foul Territory / Eno Sarris joins: How the Rays fixed Freddy Peralta FAST + Ryan Divish talks Mariners disaster season

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Eno Sarris joins: How the Rays fixed Freddy Peralta FAST + Ryan Divish talks Mariners disaster season · Foul Territory

0:04
Speaker 1: Eno Cyrus joining us right now wrote an awesome article
0:07
Speaker 1: in The Athletic about how the Rays are going against
0:10
Speaker 1: the grain.
0:10
Speaker 2: What a shocker.
0:11
Speaker 1: And, you know, I loved it. We were geeking out
0:13
Speaker 1: this morning on our call and wanted to get into
0:15
Speaker 1: this with you. Freddie Peralta is the perfect example of
0:18
Speaker 1: someone to move over there and thrive. I'll let you
0:20
Speaker 1: set the scene here for what the Rays are doing
0:23
Speaker 1: differently than everyone else in baseball and how it worked
0:26
Speaker 1: with one of their prime acquisitions.
0:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, obviously they love zigging when everybody else is zagging.
0:33
Speaker 3: And right now, you know, traditionally you throw a changeup
0:38
Speaker 3: to opposite-handed hitters. It tails away from opposite-handed hitters. And
0:42
Speaker 3: you think, I'm a right-hander. I need a changeup against left-handers.
0:46
Speaker 3: That's been traditionally what we thought. And across the league,
0:49
Speaker 3: fewer and fewer same-handed changeups have been thrown every year
0:53
Speaker 3: since we started tracking it. So right now we're at
0:55
Speaker 3: the bottom. Everyone said, don't throw a same-handed changeup. The
1:00
Speaker 3: Rays lead the league in same-handed change-ups. They are all
1:04
Speaker 3: in on same-handed change-ups. They lead second place by 350
1:09
Speaker 3: same-handed change-ups. They got Freddy Peralta and they said, hey,
1:12
Speaker 3: do you want to do some same-handed change-ups? And he
1:14
Speaker 3: was like, sure. My season's been terrible. Let me try
1:17
Speaker 3: something different. They took Brian Baker from the Baltimore Orioles
1:22
Speaker 3: and they said, I know you're right-handed. You think you
1:24
Speaker 3: need a slider. Please put that pitch away. It's been
1:27
Speaker 3: giving a bunch of homers. Let's just focus on your changeup.
1:30
Speaker 3: Brian Baker leads the league in saves. And oh, look
1:32
Speaker 3: at this. The Rays have thrown 1,000 more same-handed changeups
1:38
Speaker 3: than the Baltimore Orioles have. So it is definitely something
1:42
Speaker 3: they've identified as an edge. And when I looked at it,
1:45
Speaker 3: it's something that models have been saying for a bit.
1:48
Speaker 3: When I have a stuff plus model that looks at
1:51
Speaker 3: the shapes of pitches and it said there are certain
1:53
Speaker 3: changeups that actually are better against same handed. And it
1:58
Speaker 3: seems to be the power changeup, the power changes that's
2:00
Speaker 3: gotten really that's gotten really popular in the big leagues.
2:03
Speaker 3: Seems like it might be more popular against and more
2:06
Speaker 3: effective against same handed guys. And the Rays are just capitalizing.
2:11
Speaker 4: You know, the power changeup, a splitter.
2:15
Speaker 3: And you did you you are touching on something that like,
2:18
Speaker 3: you know, where does a splitter begin? Where's a change up?
2:21
Speaker 3: And especially when you look at grips, you're like, oh,
2:23
Speaker 3: a circle. But if you just push make the circle
2:26
Speaker 3: more aggressive, it starts looking like a splitter or like
2:29
Speaker 3: what's a pitchfork and what's a Vulcan?
2:32
Speaker 4: Or people or people now because there's more because everybody
2:36
Speaker 4: wouldn't throw the change up before because they couldn't pronate.
2:39
Speaker 4: Now we have the kick. Now we have the kick
2:41
Speaker 4: change for guys who can't pronate and you get a
2:44
Speaker 4: lot more velocity, which, yes, I get it. I'm holding
2:47
Speaker 4: it like this. If I just slide this over here
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Speaker 4: to that seam, now I have a splitter.
2:53
Speaker 3: That's a splitter.
2:55
Speaker 4: Or if I even slide it over to this seam,
2:58
Speaker 4: I have Paul Skeens' splinker or Johan Duran's splinker.
3:03
Speaker 3: That's the one that I think is actually maybe the
3:05
Speaker 3: most important because splitters have had normal-ish splits for righties
3:12
Speaker 3: versus lefties. You normally throw a splitter against opposite-handed guys,
3:16
Speaker 3: but it's been kind of a smaller platoon split, so
3:19
Speaker 3: it's good that you're pointing that out, that there's a
3:20
Speaker 3: whole continuum. But the shape that has been most effective
3:25
Speaker 3: against same-handed guys is closer to the splinker, and that's
3:29
Speaker 3: why I think it has been so effective against same-handed guys,
3:32
Speaker 3: because it's closer to a sinker. So the power change-up
3:35
Speaker 3: kind of, you know, kind of darts down, doesn't have
3:39
Speaker 3: a crazy amount of sideways. And it's like this power
3:43
Speaker 3: downwards thing. And that's why I think it's been really effective,
3:47
Speaker 3: you know, against same-handed guys. If you have a straight changeup,
3:51
Speaker 3: which is a big velocity gap and not much movement,
3:53
Speaker 3: think Lucas Giolito, Marco Estrada, those guys, they have traditional
3:57
Speaker 3: platoon splits. I wouldn't throw a lot of straight changeups
4:02
Speaker 3: to same-handed guys. Also, if you have a changeup that's
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Speaker 3: very sideways, you know, I think that those kind of
4:10
Speaker 3: changeups still are most effective against opposite hands.
4:16
Speaker 5: I think you have a really good point here. I
4:17
Speaker 5: think it's a fantastic read. Like, I just think back
4:22
Speaker 5: to when we were younger. Don't throw a curveball, okay?
4:25
Speaker 5: What's another pitch that can get somebody out?
4:28
Speaker 6: Change of speed.
4:29
Speaker 5: Learn how to throw a changeup first before you throw
4:31
Speaker 5: a curveball. And, you know, some people kind of got
4:34
Speaker 5: in the way with that as a younger core of kids.
4:37
Speaker 5: Everybody's like, oh, you need the power curveball. What I
4:41
Speaker 5: taught my son was a fastball changeup, and it's worked
4:43
Speaker 5: to perfection. I don't care how hard you throw. Now,
4:47
Speaker 5: my question to you is the Rays' philosophy, like how
4:52
Speaker 5: are they so far above and ahead everybody else? They
4:55
Speaker 5: nitpick at these guys, and all of a sudden, like
4:58
Speaker 5: are they buying into it? Everything they do, are they
5:01
Speaker 5: looking for specific guys they know that they can mold
5:03
Speaker 5: into what they want?
5:05
Speaker 3: Well, so they have more guys in my model that
5:09
Speaker 3: have same-handed, like the change-ups that are good against same-handed.
5:12
Speaker 3: They have eight of those guys. And if you look
5:14
Speaker 3: at the eight guys, a couple of them came up
5:16
Speaker 3: through the organization, but a bunch of them they acquired.
5:19
Speaker 3: So these guys like Kevin Kelly, Mason Englert, these like
5:23
Speaker 3: relievers that they've acquired, Brian Baker. those guys, they acquired
5:26
Speaker 3: because their model said, hey, their change-ups could be good
5:29
Speaker 3: same-handed and we are willing to do that. And so
5:31
Speaker 3: I think that's the key for the Rays is not
5:34
Speaker 3: as much how smart they are and how many R &
5:36
Speaker 3: D guys they have. Because I'm sure, you know, I
5:40
Speaker 3: created the Stuff Plus model with a guy who works
5:42
Speaker 3: for the Dodgers. So, you know, he works for the Dodgers.
5:45
Speaker 3: I'm sure, you know, the Dodgers know about this. You know,
5:49
Speaker 3: but then what the Rays do so well is the
5:52
Speaker 3: Dodgers have, like, big expensive free agents and stuff. So
5:56
Speaker 3: if you wanted to go get Mason Englert, you'd have
5:59
Speaker 3: to kick like Edwin Diaz or somebody off the roster, right?
6:02
Speaker 3: Like somebody who's making a lot of money. So it's
6:04
Speaker 3: not as easy for them to just sort of like,
6:06
Speaker 3: oh no, let's bring that guy on. Let's bring that
6:08
Speaker 3: guy on. He fits that model. Let's do that. So
6:11
Speaker 3: that's the advantage of being a smaller team with a
6:13
Speaker 3: smaller payroll. The other thing is that the Rays do
6:16
Speaker 3: really well is they just believe, right? Like they just believe.
6:21
Speaker 3: Their coaching staff, their scouts believe their front office guys,
6:25
Speaker 3: you know, everybody is on the same page. And so
6:27
Speaker 3: when they identify an edge like that, it goes through
6:30
Speaker 3: everybody and they know what's going on and they're aggressive
6:33
Speaker 3: about it. And they're like, oh, we're going to go
6:35
Speaker 3: get this guy and we're going to teach him, we're
6:37
Speaker 3: telling him to do same hand changeups. And everyone's like, yeah,
6:40
Speaker 3: you know, like we're all on board. So I think that's,
6:44
Speaker 3: that's the benefit of the raise approach is when they
6:46
Speaker 3: have an idea that they've decided like some, it may
6:49
Speaker 3: be an idea that other teams have noticed, They just
6:52
Speaker 3: act on it. I think the brewers are similar, right?
6:55
Speaker 3: The brewers, you know, have a bunch of like the
6:57
Speaker 3: shortest guys in baseball. They're the shortest team in baseball
7:00
Speaker 3: and they go the other way more than anybody in baseball.
7:02
Speaker 3: Let the ball travel more than anybody in baseball. They
7:05
Speaker 3: were just like, Hey, we're not going to be the tallest,
7:07
Speaker 3: biggest guys who hit the biggest pull air homers in
7:10
Speaker 3: the big leagues. So what else can we do? Let's
7:13
Speaker 3: be aggressive and act on that. So the rays and
7:15
Speaker 3: brewers are very similar to me. And like, they come
7:18
Speaker 3: up with ideas. The Brewers have this cutter, this riding
7:22
Speaker 3: cutter that everybody on the Brewers throws. It's similar to
7:25
Speaker 3: the same-handed change-ups for the Rays.
7:29
Speaker 4: I have to write down my actual question because I'll
7:31
Speaker 4: forget it after I make my comment. I promise you,
7:34
Speaker 4: the Rays are not all on the same page. That's
7:37
Speaker 4: why they're good. The people in the front office, the
7:40
Speaker 4: coaching staff, they all have the same equal voice and
7:44
Speaker 4: they disagree. Other organizations are afraid to speak up against
7:51
Speaker 4: the status quo or what's always happened or who the
7:54
Speaker 4: leader is. So I think that's what the, it's not
7:57
Speaker 4: like I'm saying, Oh, you're wrong. I'm saying that their
8:01
Speaker 4: superpower is.
8:03
Speaker 1: Yeah.
8:04
Speaker 3: I didn't mean to suggest that they all agree with
8:05
Speaker 3: each other. It's more that like when they have ideas,
8:08
Speaker 3: they act on them, right? Like the, that, It isn't
8:11
Speaker 3: just like the R & D comes up with something
8:13
Speaker 3: and somebody in the front office is like, yeah, sure,
8:15
Speaker 3: good idea, whatever. The ideas that come from the coaches
8:20
Speaker 3: that come from the R & D department, they end
8:22
Speaker 3: up on the field. That's not true for every organization.
8:26
Speaker 4: All right, so now to my question. What was the Rays'
8:29
Speaker 4: previous advantage? Because no team that I was ever at
8:34
Speaker 4: gets more intrigued or more intrigued questions like, what were
8:39
Speaker 4: they doing?
8:40
Speaker 2: What was.
8:40
Speaker 4: What was the thing? What was the Rays' previous advantage?
8:44
Speaker 4: Because these change-up numbers are just this year. Essentially, I'm
8:48
Speaker 4: going to argue it's not change-ups. I think they're just
8:50
Speaker 4: throwing sinkers when everyone else is still a year behind
8:53
Speaker 4: on throwing the four-seam fastball, and they're just illuminating a.
8:57
Speaker 3: Way to throw a difference. They're throwing power sinker change-up thingies. Yes, yes.
9:02
Speaker 4: But to me, we're splitting hairs. But what was it
9:04
Speaker 4: previously for the Rays? Because that's where the other teams are,
9:08
Speaker 4: and then the Rays will find the next thing.
9:11
Speaker 3: Oh, I mean, you'll, you'll know right away what it is.
9:13
Speaker 3: It was high spin. Uh, it was high spin fastballs,
9:17
Speaker 3: riding fastballs at the top of the zone. And that
9:19
Speaker 3: was like the last thing that we did. We were,
9:22
Speaker 3: we found, we started measuring spin rate with the new, uh,
9:25
Speaker 3: the new things that we had, the track man or whatever. And, uh,
9:28
Speaker 3: teams like the Astros and the Rays were like, Oh
9:30
Speaker 3: my God, spin rates really good. Let's go get high
9:32
Speaker 3: spin guys. High spin breaking balls. We'll pitch vertically Tyler glass.
9:36
Speaker 3: Now remember like, He came from the Pirates, and he
9:40
Speaker 3: was a sinker guy, and they were like, dude, four-seamers
9:43
Speaker 3: and curveballs. Four-seamers at the top of the zone, curveballs
9:46
Speaker 3: at the bottom, use your spin. Another thing they've been
9:50
Speaker 3: out in front on is single target. As a former catcher,
9:53
Speaker 3: uh you you might have seen a little bit more
9:55
Speaker 3: of that over across the league where they'll take guys
9:59
Speaker 3: with poor command just give them one target and say
10:02
Speaker 3: throw your nasty stuff in the zone at this target
10:04
Speaker 3: let it break away from the target uh and so
10:07
Speaker 3: they've been they've been innovative in a couple different ways
10:09
Speaker 3: over the past few years.
10:11
Speaker 4: Yeah i was there that's what they told me sorry
10:13
Speaker 4: sorry todd i i They told me. They were like,
10:16
Speaker 4: we know you are a really good receiver, and I
10:18
Speaker 4: was one of the better receivers per game. I just
10:20
Speaker 4: didn't play a lot. That's why they brought me in.
10:22
Speaker 4: They were like, I get it. You want to live
10:24
Speaker 4: on the corner sometimes, but let's sit right down the middle.
10:28
Speaker 4: Look at Blake Snell. Blake Snell, you would sit right
10:31
Speaker 4: down the middle. He'd throw the curveball, the same spot
10:33
Speaker 4: as the fastball, the same spot as a power changeup.
10:37
Speaker 4: He didn't throw this. And it all banana peeled, right?
10:39
Speaker 3: It all sort of split, break apart from the middle.
10:41
Speaker 3: It all banana peeled.
10:42
Speaker 4: And it all came from an angle that to the
10:44
Speaker 4: hitter it looked like it had downhill playing. So, yeah,
10:49
Speaker 4: I saw it. And the other thing you forgot, some
10:51
Speaker 4: of those teams also had spider tack to make that
10:54
Speaker 4: spin get a little bit more. So now we don't
10:57
Speaker 4: have that. And so what doesn't spin as much? Splinker, sinker, changeups.
11:04
Speaker 4: Because we don't have the spider tack. Just saying. I'm
11:08
Speaker 4: the guy poking holes. Sorry, you know.
11:10
Speaker 3: No, I helped break that the spider tag story. And
11:13
Speaker 3: the reason I did it was it just seemed unfair
11:15
Speaker 3: that some teams were actually literally boiling down Coca-Cola and like,
11:20
Speaker 3: you know, creating these crazy spider tacky things on their own.
11:24
Speaker 3: And some teams didn't know about it. So, yeah, they've adapted.
11:30
Speaker 3: They've always that's the thing that's so true about the Rays, too. Like,
11:33
Speaker 3: even if you look at them offensively. they think that
11:36
Speaker 3: the league is not stealing enough bases, so they're number
11:38
Speaker 3: one in stolen bases. That seems old school, but it
11:42
Speaker 3: is just, analytics is not one thing. Analytics is, let's
11:47
Speaker 3: try and be out in front on everything. Let's try
11:49
Speaker 3: to learn how to win this game.
11:52
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think an example of this whole thing
11:55
Speaker 5: about change-ups and arm angles and everything, I mean, Freddy Peralta,
11:59
Speaker 5: holy cow.
12:01
Speaker 6: One, how did the Mets miss on this?
12:03
Speaker 5: And What did the Rays feel and see from this
12:06
Speaker 5: guy and the changes he's made now all of a sudden?
12:09
Speaker 6: He's had some really good starts with them.
12:12
Speaker 1: Yeah.
12:13
Speaker 3: You know, sometimes also we give too much credit to
12:16
Speaker 3: the new team because, oh, everyone loves the Rays. And,
12:19
Speaker 3: you know, they must have done something great. The Mets
12:22
Speaker 3: were aware of some of the things. Like Freddie Peralta
12:25
Speaker 3: always had this great extension. He always really released the
12:28
Speaker 3: ball way out in front. And he had lost a
12:31
Speaker 3: little bit of that. the Mets were working on that.
12:34
Speaker 3: His extension was coming back a little bit. His arm
12:36
Speaker 3: angle had dropped. You can see even with the Mets,
12:38
Speaker 3: it was coming back up. What the Rays said, hey,
12:41
Speaker 3: let's ditch the windup completely. And that helped him kind
12:44
Speaker 3: of get to his good arm slot. And then the
12:47
Speaker 3: Rays also were like, let's throw more of these same
12:49
Speaker 3: handed changeups. That was more than the Mets were doing.
12:52
Speaker 3: But the Mets were maybe just focused on getting the
12:56
Speaker 3: slider to a good spot. So and maybe getting that
13:00
Speaker 3: arm angle up. So the Mets saw some of these
13:02
Speaker 3: things that the Rays saw, and the Rays kind of
13:05
Speaker 3: put the finishing touches on it. I would not say
13:07
Speaker 3: that the Mets are a dumb organization or totally behind
13:10
Speaker 3: or anything. They've actually done a lot of good work
13:13
Speaker 3: on their pitching development. And I got to let this
13:14
Speaker 3: dog in, or he's going to keep barking.
13:16
Speaker 4: Sorry. Yeah, let the dog in. I mean, the song says,
13:19
Speaker 4: who let the dogs out? So it's clearly not you,
13:21
Speaker 4: you know, if you're laying the dogs in. But... The
13:25
Speaker 4: other part of that, too, is the Mets got rid
13:28
Speaker 4: of Jeremy Hefner. But we're going to go on to
13:30
Speaker 4: my next question.
13:31
Speaker 6: He's good.
13:32
Speaker 2: He's really good.
13:33
Speaker 4: He knows what he's doing. Last question for me. Kyle Harrison. All-star.
13:38
Speaker 4: We're talking possibly until he went to Vegas. Cy Young consideration.
13:43
Speaker 4: And then, you know, he just came back, like, down
13:46
Speaker 4: to earth after pitching on the moon. But now we're
13:49
Speaker 4: starting to see a really not the best version of
13:53
Speaker 4: Kyle Harrison. Is it regression? Is it tiredness? Is it
13:58
Speaker 4: the fact that his arm slot has dropped down quite
14:02
Speaker 4: significantly and now he may not even be able to
14:05
Speaker 4: pitch in the playoffs for this team?
14:08
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think he's hurting. I think there's something going on.
14:13
Speaker 3: At first, what we saw is a big velo dip
14:16
Speaker 3: around his forearm injury. And then I just checked in
14:20
Speaker 3: his last two games, his locations have been totally off.
14:23
Speaker 3: His command has been totally off. If you look at,
14:26
Speaker 3: you know, part of stuff plus is another part of
14:28
Speaker 3: his location plus is just a judge of your count
14:31
Speaker 3: and pitch type adjusted locations. How good are your locations?
14:34
Speaker 3: And I looked in his locations in the last two
14:36
Speaker 3: games have been awful. And when they've been at that level,
14:39
Speaker 3: his ERA for his whole career has been a run
14:42
Speaker 3: and a half higher than when he has good command.
14:44
Speaker 3: So I know that's obvious to say when he has
14:46
Speaker 3: bad command, he's bad. But I'm just saying right now
14:49
Speaker 3: he has bad command. The arm angle is down. The
14:53
Speaker 3: Velo is okay right now, but the Velo has been
14:56
Speaker 3: down and you put all those things together around a
14:58
Speaker 3: forearm injury. And I'm sorry, I just think that he's
15:00
Speaker 3: not fully healthy right now.
15:03
Speaker 1: Well, this was everything I hoped it was going to be. So,
15:06
Speaker 1: you know, hope you felt the same way and enjoyed it.
15:08
Speaker 1: It was fun geeking out. We really loved the article.
15:11
Speaker 1: I just, I love that stuff. And we get the
15:13
Speaker 1: classic raise questions all the time. And this, I think
15:16
Speaker 1: really helps paint the picture. So everyone check it out
15:19
Speaker 1: a lot more in the athletic and, you know, covers
15:21
Speaker 1: it on rates and barrels too on his pod.
15:24
Speaker 3: One thing that's fun about the Brewers and Rays, too,
15:26
Speaker 3: is that they find different ways. You don't want to
15:28
Speaker 3: be solved. Sometimes people say basketball is kind of solved.
15:31
Speaker 3: Everyone's taking three-pointers and diving in, and no one looks
15:33
Speaker 3: that different. I don't know if that's totally true, but
15:36
Speaker 3: in baseball, at least, you look around and you say,
15:38
Speaker 3: the Yankees, they're big. They throw everything fast. They hit
15:41
Speaker 3: everything fast. They're just big athletes. You look at the Dodgers.
15:45
Speaker 3: They control the zone. They don't strike out. They walk.
15:47
Speaker 3: But the Rays and the Brewers give you a completely
15:51
Speaker 3: different way of looking at baseball. So I love that
15:54
Speaker 3: about baseball. There's not just one way to win baseball.
15:57
Speaker 6: I love that, too.
15:58
Speaker 1: And I love that it changes, right? It evolves every year, too.
16:00
Speaker 1: We're like, let's see who's going to do something different
16:03
Speaker 1: this year and what it's going to look like. And
16:05
Speaker 1: this change-up story is a big part of that. So,
16:07
Speaker 1: you know, appreciate you, man.
16:08
Speaker 2: Have a good weekend. All right.
16:10
Speaker 4: Thanks, guys.
16:12
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Speaker 5: in the description to download the app and have the
17:08
Speaker 5: code automatically added to your account so you can use
17:11
Speaker 5: it later.
17:20
Speaker 6: Wow. This is a weird one. This is a spooky one.
17:24
Speaker 1: We have to bury the 2026 Seattle Mariners. Ryan Divish
17:29
Speaker 1: is joining us right now from the Seattle times. And
17:32
Speaker 1: it still feels weird as I'm sure it does for you,
17:35
Speaker 1: Ryan and the rest of the city. I think it's
17:38
Speaker 1: probably turning into some pretty decent anger and frustration, but
17:42
Speaker 1: what would you say at the, uh, opening speech for,
17:46
Speaker 1: or the, whatever they call it, the, uh, the line
17:49
Speaker 1: to bury the team.
17:50
Speaker 2: What is it? The obituary was the word I was
17:55
Speaker 2: looking for. Yeah.
17:56
Speaker 7: I've been, I've been writing that obituary since about August,
18:00
Speaker 7: you know, working on that. Um, I mean, basically it's
18:03
Speaker 7: sort of done now. I mean, mathematically they're still alive. Mathematically,
18:07
Speaker 7: I might be able to dunk a basketball someday, but
18:09
Speaker 7: I think we all know that it's not going to happen.
18:12
Speaker 2: Um, yeah, I need some of them pouches.
18:15
Speaker 7: Right now, I think just to get through the last, uh,
18:18
Speaker 7: Do guests get a hookup on those things?
18:20
Speaker 2: Cause I need some.
18:22
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's been, I mean, I've been covering the team
18:25
Speaker 7: since oh six and I can't think of a more
18:31
Speaker 7: disappointing season, given the expectations, given the talent, given everything
18:35
Speaker 7: that went into this season, you know, for them to
18:39
Speaker 7: finish with a losing record and likely, you know, basically
18:43
Speaker 7: playing the last 10 or nine games of meeting of
18:46
Speaker 7: space ball.
18:47
Speaker 2: It's stunning to me.
18:48
Speaker 7: I mean, it's not stunning the result at the end,
18:51
Speaker 7: but how they got there watching them play. I mean,
18:54
Speaker 7: I kept waiting for them to just kind of play
18:58
Speaker 7: to who they are in terms of talent.
19:01
Speaker 2: But the execution was just never there.
19:05
Speaker 7: And even in this last month or so where Cal
19:08
Speaker 7: Raleigh has started to hit, you know, and some of
19:11
Speaker 7: the other guys are starting to produce a little bit
19:14
Speaker 7: of Julio, a little bit of Naylor, they started to
19:16
Speaker 7: produce more. The starting pitching, which has always been kind
19:19
Speaker 7: of their rock to everything, has gone downhill significantly, and their.
19:23
Speaker 2: Bullpen has just been beat to hell.
19:25
Speaker 7: So I'm not surprised that they are where they are.
19:30
Speaker 7: You are what your record is, and they've earned it
19:34
Speaker 7: by their inconsistency this year. But when you look at
19:38
Speaker 7: the totality of it all, the team I saw this
19:40
Speaker 7: spring and the team I expected, I don't think I
19:43
Speaker 7: saw it for more than maybe I don't know, six
19:47
Speaker 7: or seven games at a time all season.
19:51
Speaker 4: Ryan, I have a one-word answer I need from you.
19:55
Speaker 4: Is this team, when they started the year, did they,
19:58
Speaker 4: the front office, everybody come back, did they make it
20:00
Speaker 4: a better team? Yes or no?
20:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought they made a better team when they
20:06
Speaker 2: came back.
20:07
Speaker 4: So shouldn't that mean? that Cal Raleigh was the MVP
20:11
Speaker 4: last year because if Cal Raleigh wasn't able to carry
20:15
Speaker 4: this team, isn't this like Exhibit A13 that shows how
20:22
Speaker 4: much he was an MVP of this team?
20:25
Speaker 2: Hello, catchers, man. I got you on this.
20:29
Speaker 7: I think if Cal Raleigh was even half of what
20:34
Speaker 7: he was last year, if he was the Cal Raleigh
20:36
Speaker 7: of 2024, 30-some bombs, they're, they're not in this position.
20:41
Speaker 2: Absolutely not.
20:42
Speaker 7: You know, and what happened I think too, is when
20:45
Speaker 7: Cal was out, he was on the injured list. He
20:47
Speaker 7: wasn't around the team, that leadership quotient, it was lacking.
20:52
Speaker 7: And that came at a time when the mayors were
20:54
Speaker 7: trying to implement the piggyback system and you saw pitchers
20:58
Speaker 7: upset and just not understanding what was going on. And
21:01
Speaker 7: if Cal is there, I don't think you're seeing quite
21:04
Speaker 7: the level of open frustration from pitchers, because I think he,
21:08
Speaker 7: has been the biggest communicator in terms of understanding what
21:12
Speaker 7: you're trying to accomplish and helping make that viable and
21:17
Speaker 7: feasible to the other players.
21:20
Speaker 2: And at that time he was injured. And I think
21:22
Speaker 2: that was a huge part of it.
21:23
Speaker 7: And everything else kind of took a step back, but yeah, it's,
21:28
Speaker 7: you know, you're seeing now too. It's like Cal made
21:30
Speaker 7: a couple adjustments with his swing, put his hands up
21:32
Speaker 7: a little higher and starting to produce again. And you're like,
21:35
Speaker 7: oh man, if they had him, And honestly, too, the
21:38
Speaker 7: absence of Brendan Donovan, I think, is a huge, huge absence.
21:42
Speaker 7: I think if they had Brendan Donovan for 85, even
21:46
Speaker 7: 85 games, and if you had a little closer version
21:50
Speaker 7: of Cal, even of what the 2024 Cal Raleigh was,
21:53
Speaker 7: I don't think they're in the spot because the division
21:55
Speaker 7: isn't very good. It's a bad division. I still think
21:58
Speaker 7: you could see somebody win the division with a losing record.
22:04
Speaker 5: That's incredible, it seems like, because I'm a Tampa Bay
22:07
Speaker 5: Buccaneer fan. They always get in going six and eight
22:09
Speaker 5: or whatever it is, eight and nine, whatever it is.
22:12
Speaker 5: But ultimately, my thought process, remember a couple years ago, like, oh,
22:16
Speaker 5: they strike out too much. So they tried getting guys
22:19
Speaker 5: that didn't strike out. And it was all about the
22:21
Speaker 5: pitching and this and that. Like, I think what I'm
22:24
Speaker 5: getting at is where do they go from here? Are
22:26
Speaker 5: they going– do you think it's a different direction? Do
22:29
Speaker 5: you think they have to maybe– get rid of some
22:33
Speaker 5: of their big guns that they have and hopefully it
22:35
Speaker 5: works out because we've talked about their pitching for the
22:38
Speaker 5: past some odd years uh how good they've been and
22:42
Speaker 5: there's no way they shouldn't be in the playoffs like
22:43
Speaker 5: do they have to get rid of one or two
22:45
Speaker 5: of those guys to make their team better i.
22:48
Speaker 7: Think they're gonna probably trade a starter uh just because
22:51
Speaker 7: they do have an abundance of starting pitching which i
22:54
Speaker 7: don't think you should ever overlook or take for granted
22:57
Speaker 7: but You know, Kate Anderson did come up this year.
23:00
Speaker 7: You have Ryan Sloan, who's at AA. He'll be back
23:02
Speaker 7: there next year, and he'll be on the verge of
23:04
Speaker 7: making the team. And they still have essentially six starters
23:07
Speaker 7: right now. So do they shop George Kirby, Brian Liu,
23:12
Speaker 7: Logan Gilbert, one of those guys on the market to
23:14
Speaker 7: help fill the needs? Because that's another thing is they're
23:17
Speaker 7: going to lose their best offensive player. Randy Orozarena is
23:20
Speaker 7: going to be a free agent. I think we all
23:22
Speaker 7: know Randy would probably prefer to stay in, And on
23:26
Speaker 7: the East Coast, I'm guessing Boston is ready to cut
23:28
Speaker 7: a huge check for him. And so he's not back.
23:33
Speaker 7: They still don't really know what they're doing at third base.
23:36
Speaker 7: You know, JP Crawford will probably be gone. He's a
23:38
Speaker 7: free agent. So they have holes in their lineup. Are
23:41
Speaker 7: you going to fill them with prospects, you know, 20-year-old
23:45
Speaker 7: prospects like Michael Arroyo and Laz.
23:48
Speaker 2: Montez, Colt Emerson?
23:49
Speaker 7: Or are you going to go out and get some
23:51
Speaker 7: guys as well you know, an established bat to either
23:54
Speaker 7: play left field or third base as some insurance. I
23:57
Speaker 7: think that's one thing that has hurt the Mariners this
24:00
Speaker 7: year is like when Cal didn't hit early and Julio
24:04
Speaker 7: had the concussion mid season and some of these other things,
24:07
Speaker 7: they didn't have the overall depth and they didn't have
24:11
Speaker 7: enough to offset it when they, when things were gone.
24:15
Speaker 7: I mean, even JP Crawford not starting the season with
24:18
Speaker 7: them hurt them because we've seen what JP is producing
24:21
Speaker 7: right now. So, They have, they have some holes to
24:24
Speaker 7: fill and how are they going to do that? It's
24:27
Speaker 7: not just so simple in free agency and they have
24:29
Speaker 7: money because Luis Castillo's contract is coming, has come off
24:32
Speaker 7: the books. Randy Orozarena, I think is making 16. It's
24:35
Speaker 7: coming off the books. JP Crawford's making 10. That's coming
24:37
Speaker 7: off the books.
24:38
Speaker 2: They have money.
24:39
Speaker 7: But if you look at this free agent class, isn't great.
24:42
Speaker 7: There isn't like the best guy is probably Randy Orozarena. And,
24:45
Speaker 7: you know, I don't know that they're going to get
24:47
Speaker 7: into a bidding war for him. So do they go
24:49
Speaker 7: out and trade George Kirby? and then pick up a
24:52
Speaker 7: contract of an established player that maybe a team is
24:54
Speaker 7: trying to do something differently.
24:57
Speaker 2: I think that's a pretty viable option. We've always known
24:59
Speaker 2: that Jerry will trade.
25:01
Speaker 7: I think the uncertainty surrounding the lockout and some of
25:06
Speaker 7: those things in the future CBA does make it a
25:09
Speaker 7: little more difficult. My guess is a lot of stuff
25:11
Speaker 7: is going to happen in the month from November 3rd
25:14
Speaker 7: or whatever it is to December 1st. that month is
25:16
Speaker 7: going to be very crazy because teams are going to
25:20
Speaker 7: want to be able to make moves going into the
25:22
Speaker 7: CBA and going into the lockout instead of waiting and
25:26
Speaker 7: having that rush at the end of it.
25:27
Speaker 2: Ryan, I'm going.
25:29
Speaker 4: To give you three names. Jerry DiPoto, Dan Wilson, and
25:34
Speaker 4: whoever the fourth hitting coach is. Of the three, who
25:39
Speaker 4: is the most likely to get fired or, or who
25:43
Speaker 4: has the best job security of those three. And then
25:47
Speaker 4: you can also throw in the sixth hitting coach since
25:49
Speaker 4: they've already gotten rid of the third hitting coach earlier.
25:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was, it was all Bobby Maggie on us
25:56
Speaker 2: as Paul. That's no, I.
26:00
Speaker 7: Think Jerry DePoto has the strongest job security based on
26:05
Speaker 7: the idea that if they were going to make a
26:07
Speaker 7: change for their president of baseball operations, I think they
26:11
Speaker 7: would have done it already. If you're prudent in that,
26:13
Speaker 7: if you believe that, that this, this isn't the organization
26:18
Speaker 7: or the major league team, isn't trending in the right direction. And,
26:21
Speaker 7: you know, Jerry's been here since 15. You, you make
26:26
Speaker 7: that change, you know, and I don't think they've done
26:28
Speaker 7: that because you need time to, to vet out your system,
26:31
Speaker 7: to self scout. And if you were to bring somebody
26:33
Speaker 7: else new and he's got to look at all these
26:34
Speaker 7: things and say, how do I want to, what, what
26:37
Speaker 7: direction do I want to go with this team? So
26:40
Speaker 7: if they were to fire Jerry after the last day
26:43
Speaker 7: of the season, it's a compressed timeline to bring somebody
26:46
Speaker 7: in and get them up to speed and then have
26:49
Speaker 7: them ready to go to make moves. We saw last year,
26:52
Speaker 7: Hein Blum with St. Louis, some of the moves he made,
26:55
Speaker 7: it took a long time because he was still in
26:57
Speaker 7: the process of evaluating everything about their organization moving forward.
27:00
Speaker 2: And he'd been with them leading into it.
27:03
Speaker 7: So I think that's why I think Jerry has the
27:05
Speaker 7: most I do think they'll probably have a managerial change,
27:09
Speaker 7: whether it's Dan leaving on his own accord or they
27:12
Speaker 7: decide a mutual parting of ways. I do think that
27:14
Speaker 7: that would be likely as far as the staff. I mean,
27:17
Speaker 7: like the staff is going to make, they'll have changes
27:19
Speaker 7: to the staff because that's what you do after a
27:20
Speaker 7: season like this. And I think a lot of staff
27:22
Speaker 7: guys know it. And if Dan leaves, you know, Edgar Martinez,
27:26
Speaker 7: he only came back to do this because, you know,
27:28
Speaker 7: out of loyalty to Dan. So I think he would
27:31
Speaker 7: move on from his director of hitting. Yeah, it's really, really,
27:37
Speaker 7: really interesting. It's getting back to the old Mariners days.
27:41
Speaker 7: I told somebody once that I've covered like nine managers
27:44
Speaker 7: counting interims and since 2006, and I've had like five
27:48
Speaker 7: general managers, but we could see change, significant change.
27:52
Speaker 2: For the first time in a while. I mean, I
27:53
Speaker 2: know they, they fired Scott service a couple of years ago,
27:55
Speaker 2: but largely his whole staff came back.
27:58
Speaker 1: Yeah.
27:58
Speaker 4: And you've also covered Jerry DePoto for 11 years and
28:01
Speaker 4: he's made two playoffs, but there there there's that there's that,
28:05
Speaker 4: but yeah, Okay, the whole Dan Wilson thing. He is a,
28:11
Speaker 4: from what I hear from people in Seattle, he's a legend.
28:15
Speaker 4: He's a Seattle Mariner legend. Does that make it harder
28:19
Speaker 4: for the next step if they feel like, okay, this
28:22
Speaker 4: next step is he can't be our manager because of
28:24
Speaker 4: things that we've seen? Does that make it harder and
28:28
Speaker 4: could that muddy the water and could it have muddied
28:31
Speaker 4: the water during his tenure here as manager in the
28:34
Speaker 4: sense of, Well, he's been around forever, so he's kind
28:38
Speaker 4: of like one of the guys as far as somebody
28:41
Speaker 4: that needs to keep him in check as a manager.
28:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, Dan is beloved.
28:47
Speaker 7: I mean, he is beloved by the fan base, or
28:50
Speaker 7: he was, I mean, as a player, he was beloved.
28:53
Speaker 7: And within the organization, and from the players and everything,
28:57
Speaker 7: he had a role in player development. You won't find
28:59
Speaker 7: anybody that has a bad word to say about him.
29:01
Speaker 2: He is one of.
29:02
Speaker 7: he is one of the best human beings I've ever
29:04
Speaker 7: come across, like in terms of being genuine to who
29:07
Speaker 7: he is and really truly caring about people. And that's,
29:10
Speaker 7: I mean, the ownership group loves him because he's been
29:13
Speaker 7: part of this, the fabric of this organization and all
29:15
Speaker 7: their charity work and all this other stuff. He has
29:17
Speaker 7: been even before the manager really, you know, a face
29:22
Speaker 7: of it. So I think that's part of it. Like
29:23
Speaker 7: when they hired him the first time around and made
29:27
Speaker 7: sure to say that it wasn't an interim tag, I thought,
29:31
Speaker 7: this will only end badly. Like most managerial jobs in
29:34
Speaker 7: not usually of their own managers accord, but like given
29:37
Speaker 7: who Dan was, what he meant to the ownership group
29:40
Speaker 7: and to the organization. I always felt like you couldn't
29:43
Speaker 7: just treat them like another manager. You couldn't just fire
29:46
Speaker 7: a mid season. Honestly, like if that was the case,
29:49
Speaker 7: everything we saw about the season, the disjointed performances, the
29:53
Speaker 7: lack of production, the mistakes on the field, that would
29:56
Speaker 7: have led to a firing of.
29:57
Speaker 2: Most managers, not named Dan Wilson.
29:59
Speaker 7: You know, look at Scott service basically was fired on
30:03
Speaker 7: a team that had a better record and playing better
30:07
Speaker 7: than what, you know, we saw from the Mariners this
30:09
Speaker 7: season and they didn't fire him. And I think it's
30:11
Speaker 7: because ownership's like, we're not, we're not going to do
30:13
Speaker 7: that to this guy. You know, they may give him
30:15
Speaker 7: the choice, like, Hey, we might have to make a move.
30:17
Speaker 7: What do you want to do?
30:19
Speaker 2: But I think that's, he's earning that kind of respect
30:21
Speaker 2: from the ownership group.
30:23
Speaker 7: I don't, as far as like, overreaching on dan i
30:26
Speaker 7: like it's i'm there is a push and pull i
30:28
Speaker 7: think with between dan and and the front office and
30:31
Speaker 7: how they want to do things he's a little more
30:33
Speaker 7: old school and they are more a little analytical um
30:36
Speaker 7: you you know scott service was very in sync with
30:39
Speaker 7: the more analytical side when he's here so it wasn't
30:43
Speaker 7: the larger contrast but you can see some of the
30:45
Speaker 7: stuff now i don't know that they necessarily need somebody
30:48
Speaker 7: to kind of put him in check i think if
30:49
Speaker 7: you look at all that's gone wrong, you know, the
30:53
Speaker 7: blame pie is everywhere from the front office and the
30:57
Speaker 7: roster construction, you know, the inability to kind of find
31:01
Speaker 7: depth for the bullpen and having a bunch of non-optional
31:03
Speaker 7: guys on the bullpen. You know, even like getting Brendan
31:08
Speaker 7: Donovan and knowing he was coming off a hernia surgery
31:10
Speaker 7: and how that might affect him. Then you also have
31:13
Speaker 7: Dan and his handling of the players and accountability aspects.
31:16
Speaker 7: And then you just have the players who just haven't performed.
31:18
Speaker 7: I mean, you look at, their three best players, Josh.
31:21
Speaker 2: Naylor, Julio Rodriguez, and, and Cal Raleigh.
31:26
Speaker 7: And they're going to come in sub well below their,
31:28
Speaker 7: their career war numbers and what their production value is.
31:32
Speaker 7: So it's like, you know, when you are this, when
31:35
Speaker 7: you have this high of expectations and you have failed
31:37
Speaker 7: this much, the failure is collective. The blame is collective.
31:41
Speaker 7: It isn't just any one aspect to sit there and say, Oh,
31:44
Speaker 7: if you change this, it.
31:45
Speaker 2: Would have been better.
31:47
Speaker 7: Because that's just not how baseball works, and you guys
31:50
Speaker 7: know that as well as I do. When you fail
31:52
Speaker 7: this badly, you can look around and point a lot
31:54
Speaker 7: of fingers, and everybody has some blame in it.
31:58
Speaker 5: Last one for me, and you can be quick on
32:01
Speaker 5: this if you want. I'm going through the division. Who's
32:04
Speaker 5: winning the division? Rangers are down one game. You've seen
32:07
Speaker 5: all the teams. Are the Astros going to come away
32:09
Speaker 5: with it? I.
32:16
Speaker 2: It's so bad.
32:17
Speaker 3: They all stink.
32:18
Speaker 6: Tell them. They're so bad. They all stink. Tell them. Yeah, no,
32:21
Speaker 6: I'm just kidding.
32:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like for me, it's like, hey, what's the
32:24
Speaker 2: best thing to order at Jack in the Box?
32:26
Speaker 6: Nothing.
32:26
Speaker 7: You just get a soda and roll out of there.
32:30
Speaker 7: I guess maybe the Rangers because they hold the tiebreaker
32:33
Speaker 7: over the Astros. So if they both were tied, you know,
32:37
Speaker 7: that's the crazy part. Like the Mariners came into this
32:39
Speaker 7: month and they were five back. But they had 22
32:43
Speaker 7: games against the Astros. the Angels, the Rangers, the Rockies,
32:48
Speaker 7: and the A's. And they just couldn't push. Like, you
32:52
Speaker 7: can't set it up any better than what they had it.
32:55
Speaker 7: Even for as bad as they played for five months,
32:57
Speaker 7: they could have still made a run. And you look
32:59
Speaker 7: at all these other teams. You know, seeing what we
33:01
Speaker 7: saw from Evaldi the other night, that's a nice little chip.
33:06
Speaker 7: I think the Rangers find a way to pull it out.
33:09
Speaker 7: Although the Astros got four against the A's at the
33:12
Speaker 7: very end. That could be easy, although the Mariners made
33:17
Speaker 7: it hard against them. Because that team plays really hard.
33:19
Speaker 7: You have a bunch of guys fighting to prove their
33:22
Speaker 7: relevance in the big leagues on that A's team. And
33:25
Speaker 7: they're playing their asses off. And the Mariners ran into
33:28
Speaker 7: that team and got beat four out of six games.
33:31
Speaker 7: And that's basically what really turfed their season.
33:35
Speaker 1: That's what makes all of this so crazy.
33:36
Speaker 2: It's not just that.
33:38
Speaker 1: The Mariners flopped this year because we can look over
33:41
Speaker 1: to the blue Jays. Like the blue Jays have flopped
33:43
Speaker 1: this year. I know they still have a little chance,
33:46
Speaker 1: but the Mariners are flopping in the AL West, like
33:48
Speaker 1: the AL West versus the AL East. You can't get
33:50
Speaker 1: any more of an extreme this year in terms of how,
33:54
Speaker 1: what the Orioles could have been competing at the bottom
33:57
Speaker 1: of the division for the top of the AL West.
33:59
Speaker 1: That's what makes the Mariners collapse to me even more
34:02
Speaker 1: crazy is how bad this division is.
34:04
Speaker 2: It's a really bad division. and they still were able
34:07
Speaker 2: to separate themselves.
34:09
Speaker 7: There'll never be an easier opportunity to make the postseason
34:12
Speaker 7: between the division and even the third wildcard. You're not
34:15
Speaker 7: talking about some great team that's going to make the
34:17
Speaker 7: third wildcard. You just had to not play awful. Even
34:23
Speaker 7: if you just played average baseball for most of the season,
34:26
Speaker 7: hung around 500 and then won some games here and there,
34:31
Speaker 7: the window to get there wasn't that difficult. Now you
34:34
Speaker 7: can argue whether or not either that would lead to
34:38
Speaker 7: post-season success, but how post-season baseball plays is so different
34:41
Speaker 7: than the regular season, just get in and figure out
34:44
Speaker 7: a way. And I think that's what is, is so,
34:49
Speaker 7: so odd about this team is that they just couldn't
34:51
Speaker 7: even play average baseball for most.
34:54
Speaker 2: Of the season.
34:55
Speaker 6: Yeah.
34:55
Speaker 1: Wild, wild.
34:56
Speaker 2: Well, the, uh, the funeral is complete. Nice job on
35:01
Speaker 2: the obituary.
35:02
Speaker 6: And, uh, I'm calling up Jerry DePoto. That's my guy, man.
35:07
Speaker 6: Watch out. No, I'm kidding. Don't worry.
35:09
Speaker 2: Nothing on Jerry. Just the team didn't perform.
35:12
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, Hey, listen to two playoff appearances
35:15
Speaker 1: in 11 years with Jerry running ship. I know he
35:17
Speaker 1: wouldn't be happy with that either. If he's being real,
35:20
Speaker 1: that part needs to change in a division like this,
35:22
Speaker 1: but yeah, it was bad.
35:24
Speaker 6: It was Ryan.
35:26
Speaker 2: Good stuff, dude.
35:27
Speaker 1: Thanks for stopping by much more in the Seattle times
35:30
Speaker 1: from Ryan all off season long. Mariners fans can, suffer
35:33
Speaker 1: it's okay ems fans you'll get distracted by a lockout
35:36
Speaker 1: on top of that so you'll have so much interesting
35:38
Speaker 1: coverage from ryan
35:40
Speaker 2: All off season long thanks ryan appreciate you man thanks
35:42
Speaker 2: guys