Latest / Trauma Meets Recovery Podcast / J.S. Park on Trauma, Identity & Finding Your Way Back to Yourself

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J.S. Park on Trauma, Identity & Finding Your Way Back to Yourself · Trauma Meets Recovery Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: There are cycles of bigotry and violence and lack of education and resources where the teacher thought that that was a good idea to do.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: My childhood, the trauma, the story, the cycles of violence and things like that.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: Eventually all of that became a lighthouse for me and hopefully for others who are lost ashore.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: I am ongoing living proof that healing can be possible.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's a lifetime work, but it is possible.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Trauma Meets Recovery Podcast, where we share stories of resilience, recovery, and hope.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Join us as we sit down with survivors, authors, and leading experts to discuss their experiences and insights, exploring the path towards healing and the power of the human spirit.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Now here's your host, Dr.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Mark McNear.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, and welcome to Trauma Meets Recovery Podcast.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: I am so glad to be here with you today.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you joined us.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I I need I have a confession, and that confession is I've been waiting for this interview since the podcast started.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: We're in season two, but you know, I've been trying to get a hold of JS Park for a while now and finally have him here tonight.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: June, welcome to the podcast.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: Dr.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: Mark, I'm happy, humble, humble, and honored to be with you.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: And thanks for saying that.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's so kind of you.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, so we're gonna talk about your book, We Are Made of Us.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's coming out, I believe it's October 20th.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's right, yes.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so a few weeks, I think.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: The podcast will be out a few weeks before that.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Before we move into the book, though, I find it so fascinating.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: I have the picture in front of me.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: I shared it with you.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna bring it up right now.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it is a picture of you at four years old.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I understand that the book is about stories and about family.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and you shared this on social media, and I was wondering if you could share it with our audience.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you, Dr.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: Mark.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that picture may have been right when I turned five, but yeah, around four.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: And well, you know, I've shared this before online, and I share it uh specifically in detail in the book.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: But uh my first memory is uh a preschool that I went to that my parents dropped me off at, and uh the teacher found out very quickly I couldn't speak English, so she decided to put me in a corner facing the wall uh all day.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I do remember hearing kids playing behind me.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: I remember crying, I remember the bluish-gray carpet at the wall.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then my parents tell me that both of them picked me up that day.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: I can only really remember my mom that day, but when they picked me up, they found out what happened.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: Teacher told them.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: And my mother cussed out the teacher.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: Probably deservedly so.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I think at that time the damage had already set in.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: Within a couple years, my Korean language was basically burned out of my mouth due to trauma.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: And my parents decided that they would just speak English in the home.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: So both trauma and assimilation uh took the Korean right out of my mouth.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I understand that my parents were trying to protect me.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: I know that that was their way of hoping that I would be able to survive and not have anything like that happen again.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: But it did end up severing multiple layers and parts of who I am and my identity.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: And the interesting thing is I can still understand Korean uh decently well enough.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm told that my accent is pretty good when I do try to speak it, but I still feel that mental, spiritual, emotional, physiological block when I try to speak Korean.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I in the book I'm very careful to say, though I do blame the teacher, I know it's not all on her.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: There are cycles of bigotry and violence and lack of education and resources where the teacher thought that that was a good idea to do.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so there are systemic forces and narratives and reasons that that happen.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of my book is unpacking that, especially in chapter six, unpacking those narratives of why we're divided from each other and do not recognize that all of us were the human family.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if we could go back for a minute, you you said that, you know, all of the different aspects of the physiological and and noticing it.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what what do you notice coming up when when you do talk about it?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, even as I talk about it now, I feel at least two things.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, my hands are sweating as I'm talking about it right now.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: I f I feel anger.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: I do feel anger against the teacher for me.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: I probably feel a glimpse, a fraction of what my mom felt when she cussed out that teacher.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, having two children of my own now, that teacher probably got off lucky.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I also feel a very, very deep sorrow for that child in that photo, for that younger me.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: Just a deep sorrow to be there for hours and hours in a corner like that.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I think of children across the world, I think of people across the world, even if they're not physically put in a corner, all the ways in which we are suppressed, buried, covered, not allowed to live into our identity, who we are, to speak freely, to be ourselves.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I think all of us have that child in us that's still locked up in there, and that that physiological, that suffocation.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: I talk about that recurring dream that I have in the book, where I could see myself through a wall being strangled.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think of all of us who have been suffocated that way, our voices throttled, and how much it means to us that we we let that child speak.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so I've done a lot of therapy with that, you know, embracing that child, picking him up, saying it's okay now.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: So if you were, and I'm gonna ask for the picture to be brought up again, if you were, if you were looking at that four-year-old now, what what what would you say to him?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's changed over the years.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: I've said, I've I've I wrote something in the book that I would say to him, you know, I would want to whisk him away and take him out to Korean food and ice cream, tell him, you know, you're still good.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: Try to speak in the limited Korean that I have right now to him.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, let him know that what he what happened wasn't okay, you know.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: But uh I think today, just seeing how my kids are, you know, I'd probably I'd probably hold that kid a long time, give him a hug as long as you wanted, let him cry.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's more something visceral, physical, just letting him know that, you know, you don't belong in that corner and that you are loved.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, because when my kids, when they fall over, get hurt, feel shame, they're frustrated, the first thing they want to do is hug me and just hold on to me.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: You get like little koalas, you know?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a big deal for a child.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so all of us in some way, whether physically, verbally, relationally, we need to be embraced fully that way and pause there and not feel like it's gonna be pulled away, but just hold.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: So as you have gone on this journey and you talk about therapy and you talk about story work, you talk about family of origin, help help us kind of bring us into that for you and what that has been like for you, June.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: I I I just want to say I so admire people who are professionals who are vulnerable enough to be able to say, Yeah, I'm doing the work, I need to do the work.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: I just love that.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well, first, thank you for calling me professional.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's very kind.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I sometimes feel like I stumbled into this work, and I'm just very lucky to be able to do it.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, and you know this, Dr.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: Mark, and I'm sure many of us know it.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: The work is always ongoing and in process.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: I have this moment often with my therapist.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: My therapist is a Korean American.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I've had three therapists in the last six years.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: And my current one, she uh she has been my therapist now over two years.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I get a moment once in a while where I'll say something that happened in childhood that I just kind of suddenly remembered.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: Either I forgot or it just comes up as I'm talking.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then I'll keep talking and I'll be like, oh yeah, like the time that the gun was fired in front of me.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: And then and my therapist will go, wait, wait, wait.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: She'll say that what you just said is not, we gotta pump the brakes here.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: That's not a casual thing that happened to you.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Would you like to like I gotta go pick up groceries?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right, you know, or I'll I'll say, Yeah, you know, and then and then when he split my head open, and I and then after that, she's like, wait, wait, wait, before the after that, you know?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I sometimes remember things, they just come up.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: And what I'm learning is what I thought was so normal, what norm was normalized for me, was of course to the human body, spirit, and heart abnormal.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm discovering more and more that the things that happened to me were not okay.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, very over the top, very extreme, lots of violence and abuse.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I've normalized it.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when I'm in a patient room and a fight breaks out, I've noticed that my heart rate never quickens.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought that made me good for the work, but I also realized that's probably not the best sign of like what is quote unquote healthy, you know, just to not feel any kind of response to that.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, my therapist, my current one, she did diagnose me with PTSD, and she said, you know, that sort of numbness of emotion, uh recurrent nightmares, things like that.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: Those are all criteria that fit.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: But I gotta say that the work I'm doing, it's like peeling layer after layer.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: And when I think I've peeled them all, it's another layer, you know, and there's this stuff underneath stuff, you know, it's layers of trauma all the way down.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: But uh as I uncover it and as I recognize and validate the hardness of it, the hurt of it, that hard, that's the hard part of the work.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: I I leave every therapy session exhausted, often emotional.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I've I've just ran a marathon, you know?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then also the work is being in moments where you almost catch yourself.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, my therapist often says, you know, when you feel a reaction, just notice it.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: Just first notice it.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: So before I react, being like, oh, okay, my body's doing this right now, you know, and realizing, wow, this is thousands of years of history and story and ancestry and trauma responses and cycles of violence and my heritage, my homeland, all of it.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if we go 10 generations back, it's over a thousand ancestors.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: They all live here.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: It lives in the body.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm trying to honor all of that and recognize there's a lot here, but as intimidating as it sounds, I mean, I've found and I hope that I am ongoing living proof that healing can be possible.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's a lifetime work, but it is possible.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, so tell us with the book, you know, your last book, Dealt with Grief.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll put that up on the screen, uh, you know, for people, because I would highly recommend that book and I'm looking forward to diving in.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: I've I I've been able to read some of it, but looking forward to diving in deeply.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm curious, June, what what that process was like for you, because I get the sense that it's not a book that is just prefrontal cortex of you know the intellectual.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that it has the intellectual, but it also has a lot of experience and a lot of depth and a lot of family background.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, thank you, Dr.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: Mark.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, first for investing your time into the book.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, you know, one of the goals that I try to have, and I found this out while writing, is that I want the book to be like a chaplain for the reader, you know, a presence, a warmth.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you mentioned it's it's not just up in the head, but there's, you know, there's heart.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: And in some cultures, it's stomach, you know.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: There's a there's a holistic thing happening.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because when I when I walk in the patient rooms, I'm meeting all of them, right?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's a whole layered thing that's happening.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so I hope that that's what the book is for uh the reader.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: But um, if I'm hearing you right, it sounds like the question is um, how is the book how how is the book written or how is it for the reader?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for for you, for what was the process like?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: And and like like I get the sense there's so many layers because yeah, it's not like you're talking about something academic, you're talking about your history and you're talking about stories, and you're talking about so there's so much depth there, June.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, this book could have easily, both of these books could have easily been just like, hey, here's the here's the the meat and potatoes of neuroscience and research and academia.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: Could have been that way, you know.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but for one, I don't think I think that way.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh when I was writing the book, my editor said, you know, there's a particular Western way of writing that's like sequential logic, like point one, point two, point three, supporting points, persuasive argument, transmitting information so that the reader gets it.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: But she was like, you know, you don't really write that way.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's a lot of pictures and metaphors and you know, visuals and storytelling.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I recognize something, Dr.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: Mark, if you ever hear two different speakers, I don't want to generalize, but if you hear a Western educated speaker versus maybe an Eastern educated speaker, and again, I'm I'm I'm kind of pigeonholing here, but what I've seen, because I've been in both spaces, is uh a Westernized speaker does often learn kind of the sequential TED Talk style, here are the supporting points to make this persuasive argument.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas an Eastern storyteller is very much like Aesop's fables or even Jesus' parables.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: Here's this picture, and you don't quite get where it's going.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: You sort of have hints at it, but then there's something at the end where there's a twist or a character realizes something, whether there's a cost that's paid or a sacrifice that's made.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: And suddenly you you get what the lesson is.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm hoping that the way the book is, because I talk about my own story, patient encounters, and I try to weave that with some of the discoveries that I made, not just through research, but through my own life, that it's almost like you're walking with me through the discovery of the things that I made, through the discoveries I made as I was walking with patients, as I was tapping into my own grief and family of origin and my own story.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: Because the chaplain education wasn't just here are the techniques that you need to support your patients.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: It was we're gonna dig into your stuff too.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you're going to go into a room, a room full of family, or if you're going to a room with heavy grief, we need to talk about your grief and your family stuff.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm so glad for that training.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, just real quickly, when when in the second unit of my residency, when they said we're gonna learn about family dynamics, I thought, oh, that's just that's a strange thing to learn for a chaplain.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's all just family systems theory.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: Then I walk into a room and I recognize even when a patient is by themselves, they're not really alone.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: They live within a constellation of voices, family of origin, caregivers, the teacher in third grade, the care team, you know, their neighbor, things that they read in the news.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: They're they're a constellation of voices, and their family of origin is a huge percentage of why they think the way they do, their decision making, their uh values about themselves and others.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: So um the book is hopefully going to be more of a person sitting down, coffee or tea, and here's here's the journey.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: A couple supporting points, but we're gonna share stories.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and maybe you could share for people who are not aware what you do, you know, to give that background.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: You're talking about patients and being in rooms and so.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so to sort of uh back all the way up.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh uh, I've been a hospital chaplain now.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's been it was just turned 11 years.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, the technical clinical definition of chaplain is non-anxious, non-judgmental, comforting presence.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: And we're often thought of as, you know, like a religious figure, like a pastor in the hospital.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, we do such a range of duties, and I don't bring up religion unless my patient does, you know, but a lot of it is grief support, walking people through the end of life for many families.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's the first time that their loved one has died, or that they're experiencing that they're um a death in the family, I should say.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: And part of my role is uh being grief support, kind of walking them through the process of grieving ritual as they're around the deathbed, and also some of the technical and functional aspects of what happens next.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, what do I do now in the hospital?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: What about after the hospital?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: What does the paperwork look like?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: I also do like advanced directives, which is you know, healthcare surrogate, living will.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: I also respond to traumas at a level one trauma center.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: Hospital has that as well.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm at a thousand plus bed hospital, palliative suites with level one trauma.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm the one who calls the family and says, I'm sorry to say your loved one is here.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: And that's gunshot wounds, fire, stabbing, fall, car accident, drowning, just the heaviest cases.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: Most people walking in, it's the worst day of their lives.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so chaplains were there as a support.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: We don't ask anything from our patients.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: We're listening bored.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: And some the duties we do do encompass like uh social work or psych type stuff.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I sit at the intersection of faith and mental health.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: So the joke that I make is you know, I'm a cross between a priest and a therapist or a therapist.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: And uh now I'm actually getting my I'm in school for my master's in counseling to be a therapist as well.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: That is so awesome.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh I had mentioned to you before we got on, I want to be your first patient once you graduate.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I've gonna I'm gonna hold you to that.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: But so I think I heard somewhere that you have attended to a thousand or over a thousand deaths.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, last I checked, my lifetime of consult notes that I've written are gosh, almost 7,000 notes now over 11 years.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't know the exact number of deaths, but I got I'm sure that it's over a thousand just because of 7,000 consult notes.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I I also keep a personal log, almost like a micro journal of I'll write down like a quote that my patient said, maybe their last words, maybe something the family said.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: But um it's been thousands of patients and just thousands of people seeing the ship cross to the other side, you know, the lights going.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: And um yeah, I remember all of them, and uh what an honor it is to carry their stories.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: Some people they were alone except for me, you know.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: I was there, so it's a lot, and uh you know, there are no two deaths are the same, and then there are also universal wants and longings that we have, similar themes and you know, common words that come up, regrets.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I'm there to, as we say, you know, facilitate the process, right?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh for most people, like I said, it's their it's their uh the family's first time experiencing anything like this.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: So anything that I can do to hold them through it, I do it.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: I remember last time we talked, you said that you know, you had said to me, I'll probably talk more in this podcast than I have, much to the week, because a lot of it is just being with people.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's exactly right, Dr.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: Mark.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah, that's the joke I make.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, this will be the most I talk all week is in this microphone, you know, because uh so much of the work that I do is allowing people space to share their stories.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: What was your loved one like?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: Can you tell me?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, or asking them, you know, how are you holding up through this?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, talking with them about their faith or their community, or, you know, even the heaviest of their grief and validating those emotions of rage or numbness.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of it is listening and asking questions.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: I I feel like often I'm I'm like holding a candle and just lowering it to the floor so that they could see a few more feet ahead of them.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: And they they often lead those visits.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: I follow their lead, you know.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember a chaplain supervisor telling me early on, he said, most people who have questions also carry their own answers.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: So people, they have the faith or framework or worldview.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: I trust that there are parts of their experience or perspective that will hold them through that.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's a very maybe Adlerian, you know, type of view in therapy.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but that they have the strengths and resources to carry them.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: And then if they don't, then we're there to carry it together.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, it's a lot of listening.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: I love talking about my work, but most of the time, there was one time, Dr.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: Mark, I was with a patient where they talked for 45 minutes straight without almost taking a single breath.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: And then the only thing that I did at the end was after 45 minutes, they kind of almost talked themselves out and said, Well, do you think you can pray for me?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, so I prayed.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, after the prayer, um patient looked at me and said, Thank you for everything that you said.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: That was the best advice I've ever heard.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: And that was it.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, and I I I almost wanted to tell my patient, you were the one that came to your own conclusion.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: You had the answers in you all along because it was just them talking.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: They looked at me saying, Thank you for all your words.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: I never forgot that.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: Never forgot that.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a there's another another title that you go by, and I want to get back to the book in a minute.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: I promise I will.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, you know, you you talk about yourself being a grief catcher.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Could you could you talk about that with the audience?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thanks, Dr.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: Mark.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I see that on three levels, you know.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: One being that as a grief catcher, I sometimes literally physically catch people as they fall, you know, not to stop them, but to go with them all the way to the floor.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: And then the second thing is I am vicariously experiencing everything that my patient and family does.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm catching their grief, I'm feeling with part of our role is empathy.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's being there, being with, validating what they're experiencing.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: And that requires me to be open to where my heart, not just on my sleeve, but right on my forehead.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm there with them all the way in the trenches.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: And also catching grief is when I do ask my patient or when I ask my patient's family, you know, about this person who's hurting, or really rather the patient's family, when I ask them at a deathbed, what is what was your loved one like?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: They'll start telling me the story about their loved one, they'll start sharing.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, very often you'll start seeing laughter breaking out because they're remembering something funny.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: There's laughter through tears.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: That I've I've heard this a lot, you know, oh, he was so stubborn, or oh, you know, he would have given the shirt off his back to anybody, or, you know, oh, she just had the best singing voice, or oh, she was so intelligent.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'll hear these things.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: As I'm hearing them, I never got to meet my patient in life.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: But somehow, as they're talking, I get to meet them in death.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it's almost like a statue emerging from marble.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: They're sculpting for me who this person is.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: So in that way, I'm catching the story that emerges from grief.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I'm catching.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's my honor to do it.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I said we'd go back to the book, and I want to go back to the book, and I and I have a question for you.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that is what did the book teach you?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I'm gonna frame this in uh something I learned in a writing lecture.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there are two types of writers.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we lean towards one or the other.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: One is uh uh an architect, and the other is a gardener.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: So the architect has to outline, know where they're going, you know, make sure I got this destination lined up and hear the steps to get there.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: A gardener is I got a premise, I'm gonna start writing, we're gonna see what happens, you know?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I've heard authors kind of go in one or other direct, you know, one of the two directions, and sometimes they get surprised by their own writing.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: Gardeners do, right?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: And architects can surprise themselves, and gardeners can also outline.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: But I've found very much that outline does help me, but I tend to be a gardener.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm the kind of person that I'll be struck with some realization in a dream, wake up at three in the morning, and I have to write it down.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: So the parts of the book that sound like a fever dream probably really literally were.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: But I as I was writing the book, what surprised me so much was a common theme that kept popping up.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: There are several common themes.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: The common theme was, you know, I took a risk with my patient and I went against my training and followed my intuition and said this.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then I realized the constraints and limits of some of westernized education, psychology, religious teaching, some of the interpretations of what we find helpful.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I throughout the book started thinking, okay, some of the things that we're learning are myths or not helpful or outdated or just not field tested, time tested.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: They're not, yeah, they're they're or they've been distorted in a way that is just truncated and you know, shortcutted.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: So uh at I would say maybe a dozen times in the book I say something like, I take a risk.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: So for example, we're taught not to self-disclose with patients, right?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: But there are a couple of times I say, well, you know, we can self-disclose, and now that's becoming more of a continuum I'm learning in counseling school, but uh in my grad program, but you know, this self-disclosure may be beneficial or helpful to my pay.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna connect with them this way, and it's coming up, you know, and there's something spiritual about that where I'm gonna say, okay, I'm gonna share a glimpse of my story.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: I know I'm not supposed to, but I'm going to because I I feel it may be helpful.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: This is the time for it.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: So there are times in the book I was surprised by how often I was like, yeah, you know, this field, this teaching has let me down in some way or is incomplete.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I sometimes spent chunks of the book on that about, you know, the idea that we have, or what are what what what does a traditional family mean, or what does a healthy family dynamic look like?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, or what do we learn about boundaries that are dangerous?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: What do we learn about cutting somebody off that's not helpful?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I wrestle with all that, contend with all that, kind of the myths or narratives that we're given.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I push back on some of those things.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I found in the book that there's quite a bit of that.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then I engage with, hey, here's some things that I learned that were I had to unlearn and then relearn.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: So again with the book, I'm curious what what surprised you the most as you went through the process?
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, I would say I think for me, the most surprising thing is something that I didn't something that I I probably knew over the years going into rooms.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: But then as I was reverse engineering it through the book, I was like, oh yeah, this makes sense.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: I I think training or teaching on family dynamics is very much like here is how you get along with your family and find peace or find congruence within yourself, or you get everybody on the same page.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I would be in a room where, for example, the entire family is making a difficult decision for should we keep our loved one on life support or allow them to pass peacefully.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: And in most rooms, there's not always consensus.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: There's different opinions, different dispositions, different thoughts and ideas about it.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I made the mistake of thinking, all right, we all just need to get together and hold hands and, you know, just come together in the same page, you know, and just let's have this calm, nice, rational conversation.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of the literature is kind of like, you know, we need to get into equilibrium and just, you know, we really uh meet each other where we are.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: And but I realized that that was really kind of robotically conforming everyone to look like each other and not really respecting the individual voices of each person.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: And without doing that, they couldn't decide communally or collectively.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: We each needed to air out what was going on.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I started to find that sometimes facilitating the fight, letting the emotions out, saying, like, you know, take going to the person who is quote unquote quiet, you know, going to the person who's a strong one, you know, seeing the value of that.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because sometimes we want this the quiet one to speak louder and the strong one calm down, you know.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: But instead, the quiet one asking, you know, how are you feeling about all of this?
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then they're every they're kind of very internalized, but when they talk about how they feel, the rest of the room begins to feel along with them.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: And that becomes a gift, not a liability.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: Or the strong one, sometimes we look at the strong one and think, gosh, they're overriding the room.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: They're so loud, they're monopolizing the conversation.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: But I'll often ask them, like, you know, I recognize that you're holding this family together.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: It seems like you're holding them up on your shoulders, you know.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what would make you feel strong in this moment?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: Because it is hard to be strong for so long.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so tapping into it rather than saying, hey, calm down and try to just get on everybody's page.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I liken family dynamics to like a like a heist, like different parts of the crew, you know, you got the hacker, you got the getaway driver, you got the brains, you know, you got these different people, uh, the acrobat who's gonna get the jewel.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: But uh, you know, the real, the real jewel is the connection we made along the way.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: And it's different, disparate parts, you know, respecting the individuals.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's the only way that we can have something communal.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, maybe I'm not saying anything original, but for me, it was a very new take on how to enter into a family dynamic, respecting where each person is, not trying to flatten them into this very, very similar robotic landscape where each person looks exactly like the other.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: Let's have calm dialogue.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: Because all that's gonna do is continue to perpetuate the false truths that they may have already walked in with.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that very kind of tenuous, like we don't talk about that stuff.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: But in that room, when mortality creeps into the window, life and death decision, we're gonna talk about it.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about it.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that as professionals, sometimes we feel like we want to calm everything down because it makes us uncomfortable?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's so much why our education is about getting in touch with our own grief, our own discomfort, our own reactions to a room, what in their story also touches in our story something that may cause us to have a disproportionate reaction, whether freeze up or get angry.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, all those things are what we feel discomfort, that's valid, right?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: What we feel when we're triggered, what we feel when it's disproportionate reaction, they're valid.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: But I think if that prevents us from being able to be the presence in the room, you know, I mean, one of the things is in a family dynamic like that, I recognize they may allow me in here for 20 minutes, you know, and then and then they're done.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's it.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm sometimes the referee for them to fight it out.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: And if I just have it, hey, everybody calm down and let's just get along and we'll we'll be okay.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: They can they can fake it while I'm there, you know.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: Let's humor the chaplain a little bit.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: But uh when that stuff starts coming out, like the other week, I was in a room.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: There were several generations in the room.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: The patient was the oldest, and uh a bunch of the young adults were threatening each other, saying, if you say that again, I will punch you in the face.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like they were physically going at each other.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, one of them going, I swear to God, you say that one more time.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: And this room was ready to just throw fists.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I was sitting with a patient.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: He was the oldest one in the room, and he was just looking at me, going, you know, what am I gonna do?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: That kind of look, you know, he was in a totally different place.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it's he's ill and you know, he's just got this different perspective.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: And he's like, Well, it's all gonna be fine.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, one of them said, Chaplin, so sorry that we're doing this in front of you.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: And then what I said is I took a risk, you know, because in my body, I felt like, oh my gosh, this could be like what I grew up with at home.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: Just like lots of violence, lots of physical stuff going on.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: My mom and dad fighting each other and things like that.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: They would throw things and it got really ugly.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I felt it in my body, you know.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: But what I made an intentional decision, all right, I'm going to, as people say, lean in, right?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna lean into the discomfort of it.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, hey, you know what?
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: I said, um, you know, your dad here or the the patriarch of the family, you know, and making a decision like this is hard, you know.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I know you're holding a lot.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're gonna have to fight it out, we can fight it out.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll stay here.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'll be here with you.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: Just say the stuff you gotta say.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: And they fought it out.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: And and like they verbally fought it out, you know.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: So they were saying this, and you've never done this, and you stole from me.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: And do you remember that?
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: And by the end of that fight, I mean, they were doing this, you know, they were just breathing hard.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: But what I noticed was by the end, they were kind of all in tears, and it was almost cathartic for them to let everything out.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I know that I probably didn't fix that in a day.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, there were times when I made it, you know, it maybe I didn't even say too much.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: I said maybe three or four things like, can you say more about that?
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: Or I see that you're angry.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: Can you, can you tell me what your tears mean?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, I'll say little things like that to kind of just, hey, let's go deeper.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe I didn't do much, but I felt like in that moment, they were able to, as mad as they were at each other and still wanting to fight each other, they still came together for the dad.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I felt like, hey, at least we understand each other now.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: We know where we are.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: We're we're not gonna keep this false truce.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: And the anger is not about um, I'm mad at you, but I'm mad at this, you know, at what's happening.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: So they still left angry, uh, but they aired everything out and they did make a decision.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I remember the the patient leaning over and holding my hand and saying, you know, and and I'm this is almost a brag, but he said, Hey, you're really good at this.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: So that at least for me, I guess was a win.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm curious.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: I I I just thought of this and I'm gonna ask you, do you feel, June, that your childhood prepared you for the work you do?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, I have two minds about this, Dr.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: Mark.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'll say real quickly.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: On one, I do feel my like my childhood, the trauma, the story, the the cycles of violence and things like that.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: Eventually all of that became a lighthouse for me and hopefully for others who are, you know, lost ashore.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: I also want to say that I hope no one or I don't think anyone needs to have a childhood like mine to be a provider or healer or caregiver or an artist or a creative.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: I don't believe in the tortured artist syndrome.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think it takes abuse or pain or trauma to create a person that's capable of giving care or feeling deeper.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think humanity in and of itself, um, with it doesn't require pain.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't require suffering, it doesn't require their subjugation for them to rise up and be better.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm I'm of two minds about that.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: Certainly it helped me, but I'm also thinking of the ways that it harmed me and still hinders me.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm also thinking of, yes, I do know what it's like.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm hoping to give my children a better future in which they can fully live into themselves without fear and not feel like that they're constantly overcoming something to get where they are, but that they've always been boosted up from the bottom, that their parents have always been there uh for them.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: They have had caregivers, a community, a whole network of people cheering them on.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a different kind of motivation, a different kind of inner spirit that in itself is also uh unbreakable.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, another question, maybe not related, but I'm curious.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna ask you sixth degree black belt.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I semi-retired.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: I started teaching again because my daughter's been taking Taekwondo.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I teach occasionally.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, I was just talking about this today.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_02: That whole competitive culture that I grew up in was so hard, you know.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, my dad, ninth degree black belt, I practically grew up like a dojo kid, you know.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: And if you watch karate kid, it's like not too far from the truth, just the competitiveness of it, you know.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: But what a gift it is also that I get to like have the legacy of my father and of my heritage and my homeland.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I have such mixed feelings about it, you know, but intergenerational trauma also comes with as cheesy as this is, intergenerational treasure, you know, we carry both.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: And um I think there are parts of it that I want to discard, but there are parts of it that certainly can be redeemed.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, another question about the book.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: If you know October 20th comes and somebody picks up the book, what is your hope for that versus?
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: My main hope is that if the reader feels stuck, if you feel stuck in a loop and you're not sure why, there's like this inner wheel or machine that just keeps going.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's a narrative, you know, there's a narrative that keeps holding you back from where you want to be, from relating to people in a way that you know you want to have depth in the relationship.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: If you feel like you're in a fog of just like, I keep getting stuck in this doing and saying the same thing.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I I, you know, it's my mouth or it's my habits.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um kind of lost in a drift.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: My my hope is that the the book will help to lift the fog of self-alienation and to reconnect with ourselves, with our family story, contending with the good and the bad of it, reclaiming parts of our motherland that we may not have known about, at least to inspire curiosity of and to recognize that there are narratives that alienate us in ourselves and from each other.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: And that we can reclaim what our we can reclaim who we are by recognizing um that the the full person, who you are, it's already there.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you are everything that you need already.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, it's uh it's a book about family stuff.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: But my hope is that in discovering like, here's your family stuff, here's your family of origin, digging into all that messy, complicated, you know, your ancestry, your history, you know, um, even like people in your life who have died who you feel mixed and complicated about them contending with that, you know.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, people that you may have had to cut off, or you feel like you keep going back and it just hurts.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's all of that stuff in there.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: But for somebody who feels stuck, I mean, your family story could be a big reason why.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you may feel lost and adrift and diving into that, digging into that, maybe a way to be liberated.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: June, I want to thank you for this time.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: I want to thank you for your wisdom and your knowledge.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to ask if people let first let's let's stop for a minute and tell us about the name of the first book and we'll bring it up on the screen and then tell us the second book.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_02: Look, Dr.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: Mike, so I got now.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: All right, yeah.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: Here's the disclaimer this is a mock copy.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: My publisher gave me just the jacket, but it's not the actual book.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I'm even supposed to say that, but you can see the back.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: There's nothing there.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: But they gave me this for promotional purposes.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: We are made of us.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: And then my other book is As Long As You Need.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's the previous book from 2024.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: This is on Grief.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: This is on all the family stuff.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: And uh thank you.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: This um this one comes out October 20th.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: And if people want to learn more about you, how would they do that?
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I'm on all the things, all the social media, Instagram threads, and my books are everywhere.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: Books are sold.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: June, again, thank you for this summit.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: It has been wonderful.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Dr.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: Mark.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for joining us on the Trauma Meets Recovery podcast.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: If today's conversation spoke to you, we would love for you to like, subscribe, or share the episode with someone to learn more or connect with us.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: Visit our website at trauma meets recovery.com.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, be gentle and kind to yourself.