Latest / The Brave Becoming / When the Mask Comes Off: Shame and the "Model" Christian Woman
Transcript
- Shaniqua: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Brave For Coming. I am Shani Quarisha, one of your co-hosts, and this is Tiana: Tiana, hi. Shaniqua: So everyone, we don't have a guest this week. We're actually like at the midway point of our season. So it's just going to be the two of us and we're going to check in. We're going to talk about everything that's going on in our lives when it comes to our own particular stories. So when we first started out, you know a little bit of information about us, but you don't necessarily know the full story and some of the background information. But we thought that this would be a great and excellent episode to do that. And so let's see if you can figure out the title of today. Well, you won't be able to figure out the titles of today's episode. But let's see if you can figure out what we're talking about today. And so what we're discussing today is going to be coming from Isaiah 54 and 4, the scripture verse, Isaiah 54 and 4. And it says, Fear not, for thou shalt not be ashamed, neither be confounded, for thou shalt not be put to shame. Can you figure out what we're talking about? I said the word twice shame. The title of today's episode is When the Masks Come Off, Shame and the Model Christian Woman. Tiana: Mm mm mm mm. I feel like this is about to get real deep. Shaniqua: Girl, I'm for are you? Tiana: Because I hey hey, lead the captives to freedom. Share share the testimony. Shaniqua: Amen. Amen. Amen. Tiana: And we're mainly coming from Proverbs. You know, Proverbs 31 is about what a woman should be. So Proverbs 31 and 10 says, Who can find a virtuous woman for her price is far above rubies? Most of us were raised on that chapter alone. So today we're talking about what happens when you don't look like her. Shaniqua: Child, what happens when you don't look like her? My gosh, today. Because baby, Tiana: Ha ha ha. Shaniqua: is she not the standard? Is she not the standard? This woman, this elusive woman, is Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: she not the standard? okay, so let's get started. So, okay, so T. So growing up, we all heard about this model Christian woman, and it was we were she was put on a pedestal of who we were supposed to become. the our guiding light to being the woman Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: that God taught told us or was the describing or ascribing for us to be. So my question to you is what were you taught specifically when it comes to the Proverbs 31 what 31 woman, what did you hear? What did you and where did you learn this from? Was it the pulpit, your mother, women's ministry? Where did you learn about this woman? Tiana: Well, since I did not grow up in a church, I didn't learn about this woman until I came into the church myself, until I started reading my Bible. And when I started reading my Bible, I was already married. And so when I heard about the Proverbs 31 woman, I was like, this is what I'm supposed to model as a Christian woman and a wife and a mother. This is what I'm supposed to look like. And so I didn't really have like the a guide. I don't think any of us do. So I just tried my best just to model what I thought and what I thought I understood about being a Proverbs 31 woman. But I will say, although my home wasn't a church going home when I was growing up, my mom she would check those boxes. She's very hardworking, she's a very good mother, she's a very, very, very good wife. And so most of the things that I was doing is because of what I saw her doing. But Shaniqua: Okay. Tiana: Again, when you read about the Proverbs 31 woman, it's like, that's the epitome. That that is the woman. That is what we are supposed to look like. Yeah. Yeah. Shaniqua: That is what we are supposed to look like. I agree. I agree. I agree. Tiana: But I had I got the same question for you. So like, what does she look like for you? And which which of those markers did you expect to hit? Shaniqua: My gosh. So I I like you. I didn't grow up in the church, but in my early twenties, I I came to to ministry and to be a part of the church and to be active. And so since the very beginning, I felt like Proverbs 31 was always taught at me. It was always taught and it was always put on a pedestal. especially when it comes to women's ministry. A lot of women's ministries, though their title is Proverbs 31 or some some way, shape, form, or fashion that has been incorporated into the backbone and the defining moment of what an actual woman is supposed to be. When it comes to the markers of that, the only one that I hit is that I'm a business owner. that's the only one that I hit. I don't hit a wife. I don't hit a mother, but that I am a businesswoman with that. And so those are the markers that I hit. I expected to hit when I was a when I was, you know, developing as a young woman in the church and in my early 20s and in my 30s and even in my early 40s. I expected to hit all of those markers to be this woman, to be a wife, to be a mother To be a a business owner, to be this mighty Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: and fabulous woman that has been put on a pedestal. I expected to hit all of those, but right now I'm only hitting one. Tiana: So, so since you're only hitting one, when did you first feel the shame of not checking all those other boxes? Shaniqua: I don't necessarily know if I ever felt shame of not hitting those boxes, or if it was more so that it was the expectation that I should hit those boxes. And let me let me kind of make that distinction. I'm a hard person for you to kind of make feel shame because I don't believe in nobody speaking nothing over me. If it ain't if it ain't resonating with me, then it ain't finna resonate. So if God ain't spoken to me, what makes you think I can let you speak it? I do I do accept wise counsel, so I'm a little bit different when it comes to that. But so that's why I I don't think I have had full blown shame. But what I have had is I don't meet this. I don't meet this, and okay, is it's something wrong with me because I don't meet this. I I definitely have had those moments. But then when that comes when it comes to mind again because of who I am and also because I struggle with self-esteem when I was younger from a physical standpoint, because for those who don't know, I'm six feet 200 and some plus pounds. Like I am I I look how I look, I walk into a room, how I walk into a room. And so I had to to get to a point from a self-esteem standpoint to be okay. So then putting that on top of it, I wasn't gonna do that. But once I did the self-esteem work. And realized I was fearfully and wonderfully made, being able to put that level of shame from that checklist, I automatically push back to that because I had done that part of the internal work. But what about you? Did you see it becoming a checklist? And let me back let me back up from that. Not that you see this becoming a checklist. When do you think and why do you think it became a checklist for every woman in the pew? Tiana: That is a very good question. Shaniqua: Try to ask good ones. Tiana: That's one of the Proverbs thirty one is one of the main chapters where we see a woman talked about in her fullness, like what is the overall expectation? Because we Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: know in the Bible she was expected to have babies. We know that she was expected to be a wife, lead in a home, but then in Proverbs thirty-one it talks about entrepreneurship and it talks about her rising early and it talks about her kindness and how she raises her children. And so I think that just became the model. it was easier to say this is this is what a Christian woman is supposed to be. This is what you're supposed to do. This is what you're supposed to look like instead of it instead of it being unique to each woman because Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: we all have our own unique stories. And so I think it was just yeah this is it here. Just do that. And then you're a woman. You're a Christian woman. Shaniqua: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting that the fact that this this proverb was an actual mother that was s giving advice to her son, a a a a king on what Tiana: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: he should look for when it comes to his his wife. Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: a mother giving advice to her son. You know, it it it wasn't necessarily to for all sons. This man was a king. Is your ch is your son a king? Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: But anyway, that's neither here nor there. That's neither here nor there. But yeah, I think it's I agree with you. It's very interesting the development of how that then became such a backbone and model of what a woman should be. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I think it goes back to some of our guests have said that when we read the Bible, we make it so individual. So Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: nope, this this is what I'm supposed to be. yeah, we use the Bible as a guide, but like you said, it's it's very important to point out that she was sharing this information with her son that was a king. Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: So it was it was advice that was unique to him. Now, should we have some of those qualities? Can we have some of those qualities? Absolutely. But that should not be the standard because we all have unique stories. Shaniqua: Amen. Amen. I agree. I definitely agree with that. I definitely agree. I agree. Tiana: So so when we think about well when we talk about your story and I know that you share with me that you have fibroids Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: and so you said that you had fibroid surgery and your friends came over and the men asked what surgery you had, what made you start talking openly about women's reproductive health and why do so many women carry it in silence? Shaniqua: So, for those who missed the first episode, I I had fibroids, I've had a hysterectomy. I've had several reproductive surgeries before I finally decided to have a hysterectomy. but my first reproductive surgery, my first fibroid surgery was in 2008. And I remember and I did have shame with that. And so I remember having the surgery and was like, my reproductive, my uterus isn't doing what I needed to do. And and in even long after that, I would sometimes talk and say, my womb, and my doctor would correct me and be like, your uterus, because I think she understood, especially since I'm a person of faith, kind of how that was turning in my mind. And so Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: I had to kind of understand even from a language standpoint, but my first surgery, my first reproductive health surgery when it comes to the abdominal myomectomy, and I had to remove the fibroids. 2008, I remember and I have a a really great co ed group of friends, men and women, and we're all in a group chat have been for the past what 20 30 years, I think at this point, 20 years post-college. And I remember that after the surgery, they came over to my house to keep me company one day. And the men, the women had known, but the men were like, okay, so what surgery did you have? And I was like, I had fibroid surgery. And then when I said it, there was this big like relief. I can say this. There is no shame that I should have as a woman talking about my body, talking about something that's very real. Every woman, I won't say every woman, but most women, unless there are some things going on, you have had a cycle, you have a period. And so Being able to say that in front of my male friends and them be like, okay, it was no jokes. They asked a couple of questions, what is this? Well, what did you mean? And I always tell people, because I've had I ended up having two myomectomies that I always I always tell people I had the C-section without the baby. Because my gosh, it's just like a C-section without the baby, how they cut you, the recovery Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: time, all of the things. And so having that conversation with them. Allowed me to be more free with how I address reproductive health and women's health specifically. And Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: so that's something that allowed me to be able to do that in the future. And every time I share my story and I've told my story and I've been very public about faith on Facebook with my story, every time I was having to have a surgery, I wouldn't, I wasn't one of those persons like, I'm having surgery pray for me. That ain't never been me. But Tiana: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: I would talk about, hey, I had fibroid surgery, or when more when research was coming out, or when it was being talked about more in Congress, women's health, I would talk about that in a very public manner. And when I did that, I had so many women slide in my DMs and be like, I'm struggling too. I've had fibroids. Can you tell me this? What was your story? And that just let me know that so many women carry that in silence. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: carry Reproductive health issues in silence, not just when it comes to fibroids, but largely when it comes to fibroids, when it comes to anything about our reproductive system, if if we're able to carry children, if we're not able to carry children, because it's so much tied into that. And so Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: that's what that has been for me. Yeah. Tiana: Yeah. So so what do you think your openness gives the women who are in hiding, who do feel shame? Shaniqua: a way to speak and a way to talk and someone to talk to. Cause I have talked many women through this surgery. Okay, you're gonna need this. Make sure you do this. Don't push yourself. Don't do this. Cause all the things that you're not supposed to do, baby, I did. I remember my little hard headed self, baby. My doctor was so hot with me. I remember I went to the farmer's market, probably like you know, the two weeks checkup post off and I was at the farmer's market with my dad. And he had taken me and girl, I went and picked up a watermelon. For those who don't know, I'm addicted to watermelon. I am addicted to watermelon. I picked up a watermelon, baby, and I had just left the doctor's office and I was like, something is wrong. But Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: I was ignoring it. I ignored it. Baby, I went home, I looked, that sutra had busted. I had to take myself Tiana: Mm, mm, mm. Shaniqua: back to the doctor. And she was like, What are you doing? All of those things I've been able to help other women through the things not to do. But that's the f one part of it. The other part that I've been able to help women do is not to feel shame. That our bodies are going through things. They are genetic factors. They are they are factors, environmental factors. There's so many factors that that that impact our reproductive health and that there's no shame in that. Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: That doesn't mean that you're less of a woman. It doesn't mean that you're broken. It doesn't mean any of those things. It just means that you have fibroids. And so don't let the denial thereof, don't let being able to not talk about this with your partner or with whomever stop you from getting quality care, stop you from having a surgery that may be necessary. And having the real conversations. I suffered for a long time in order to quote unquote. preserve my womb in order to Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: preserve me being able to have children. And mind you, guide, and I I rarely tell people this, but I had the revelation in my 20s when I first had fibroids, was diagnosed with fibroids that I wasn't going to have children and that that's what that was. When I thought that I was reading and speaking something over my life and I fought. so long to preserve the uterus and doing doing all of these things like fasting, medicine, I natural Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: path, I did a lot. I spent a lot of money, not only with the traditional method when it comes to medicine. And so I had to then unpack that, grieve that in the way that I need to. And so by me being so forthcoming, I think it's Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: a doorway to help some other woman heal. Tiana: Does that also help with your healing? Do you think? Shaniqua: talking about it somewhat maybe back then now. Girl, now I'm like okay. Cause 'cause I did have therapy even before before me having to the make the decision to have the hysterectomy. I had therapy. I had Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: a therapist. She helped me walk through grieving the life that I wasn't gonna have because there was a lot of grief associated with it. because I realized me having the hysterectomy, especially since I hadn't had sex. Or well, I had had sex one time by the time I had the hysterectomy, but even before then, because there were several times that the reason I was saying no to a hysterectomy is because I hadn't had sex and I was do I felt like I was making a decision in a void. And even with me at the end having to have the hysterectomies, knowing that I was making a decision for a hysterectomy, and I don't know if I ever could have gotten pregnant. So I dealt with a lot of grief that I had to deal with, but talking about it. with other women, it didn't necessarily help me. I because I just wanted to help them. Me Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: discussing it with my therapist, me discussing it with my friends, me discussing it, going before the throne room, what's not on my face, laying down, crying to God. That's what helped me the most. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: but if I can be a testimony, if I can be example, I want to always be that. Tiana: Mm-hmm. I love that. So you you you mentioned you mentioned not having sex and then having to make this decision about Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: having this type of surgery. And you were also forthcoming about this on the Dear Wifey podcast. So Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: when you were on that podcast, you talked about people telling you the enemy stole your kids, which I think is crazy. Shaniqua: Girl. Tiana: Your answer was what you're not gonna do is speak over my life. Where does that Shaniqua: Yeah. Tiana: kind of theology come from? Shaniqua: Girl, that's a good question. So after the podcast, I had so many people commenting on that podcast on YouTube, on Instagram. And it's literally, I had some woman tell me that the enemy stole my kids. And I was, I was like, I was literally about to go to her because I got a mouth on me, y'all. I got a mouth on me. I write for a living. I am prolific with words. I am great with words. And my daddy taught me how to cuss people out without cussing. So Tiana: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Shaniqua: But I had to catch myself. And what I and especially because I realized I was putting information out there. People didn't know the entirety of my story. You're only been able to tell people in some manner within a clip or a sp specific period of time. And so I had to catch myself. Now where that that that that sp that erroneous theology came from, I don't know. Where someone felt that they could speak that over my life and comfortably speak that, I don't know. I pushed back on that. I denied that. But there was a lot of audacity when it came to that. And I think even going back from a biblical standpoint, we need to be careful of the theology that's being taught and the theology that's being preached in the pulpits, as well as what we talk about in Bible study or in women's ministry, and how it inherently can build in shame to women who are not mothers, women who won't. ever be mothers, women who may have lost children, women who are who are single and are not wives. Like there's so much number one erroneous theology as if the only design for a woman that God made was for us to be someone's wife or was for us to be a mother. That was a function of it of women, but that was not the primary and only and sole design of women. And so because we if we look at Sarah, she she was the and it's so funny, my pastor ironically, my pastor just preached yesterday, using this scripture, but you know, Sarah was the first woman that was literally brought into the Bible that she was bear, you know, for an extended period of time. So she struggled with that grief of I'm not gonna have a child a child. And so she wanted to give her child her husband a child, Abraham. Abram a child. And so, that's where her main her maid servants Hagar came in, and how we have Ishmael's birth. And so all of those different things, you know, we speak and they teach from a standpoint of of of theological reference that in my opinion is erroneous. Back let me back that up. Not only is not in that is erroneous in my opinion, but that is erroneous when it comes to biblical scripture and texts. Tiana: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and it's amazing to me. in the Bible, when we talk about Sarah, that's the first thing we found out about her. Not how old she was, what she liked to do, was she a good person. She was barren. She can Yeah, she beautiful Shaniqua: She barren. She was bare and she was beautiful. She was beautiful and barren. Tiana: and barren. She was beautiful, but she can't have no kids like that. That is just Shaniqua: She can't no kids. So her worth was already like she was put up here from being from a beautiful woman, but then her Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: worth was already dropped because she was barren. Cause she had couldn't have children. Mm-hmm. Tiana: Yep, because because she couldn't have kids. So people seem to accept a woman having a child outside of marriage more easily than a woman who chose to not do it alone. Why do you think that is? Shaniqua: Girl, I don't know because so many people were like, Why you don't have no kids? And I would be like, 'Cause I'm not married Tiana: I'm trying to do this right. Shaniqua: Should I do this right? Well, you don't want and it's nothing wrong with if life has been where you have a child outside of marriage. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: Okay. I've also had friends who have had children outside of marriage because they wanted to have a child and they they felt that that window of time was closing for them and and marriage Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: was not they they wanted a child regardless if there is marriage on the table or not. Tiana: Mm, mm-hmm. Shaniqua: For me, that wasn't what I wanted. And so I don't know why women people seem to accept women having a child outside of marriage more easily than a woman who chooses not to do it at all. I know that I have I was looked at side eye with that. You want kids, Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: but you're you're not gonna have kids because you don't have a man. Well, I also didn't want to raise children alone. Yes, I Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: have a great resource system. But I do believe in I grew up in a two-parent household. Now it was dysfunctional Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: sometimes, but I grew up in a two-parent household. But I believe that if I wanted to do that and to bring children into this world, my desire was to do it with my husband. And that's the decision that I made. Tiana: And yeah, and and that's your decision to make. But what I was about to say was I think it has to do with age, like how people look at age. Because I had Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: my daughter out of wedlock, my ex-husband and I, we wasn't married when we had our daughter, and I was looked at as like I actually had somebody tell me, we should have talked to you about the birds and the bees. Now mind you, I was twenty years old. I was twenty, okay. Shaniqua: Girl the audacity of peaceful. Tiana: But then from from your end you hear, well, why you just won't do it? And I think that's solely Shaniqua: Yes, yes. Tiana: based on how people think about age. Like Shaniqua: But it's also very hypocritical. Tiana: it is. Shaniqua: you damned if you do and you damned if you don't. It is so to it's so hypocritical. But you're right, age, very much so. Because they don't want you to have a tr a child Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: too early. But girl, you getting dusty. go ahead and do it, girl. Tiana: Mm-hmm. So go ahead and do it, girl. Go ahead and do it. Don't get dusty. Shaniqua: Right, don't be dusty. Well dang I got. Dusty. My knees are creaking, but Tiana: So we already talked about Sarah who was barren, but we also have Hannah and Elizabeth, who is also Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: barren. And so when we think about those stories, has the church read those stories as as describing a culture or as instructions for how to treat women? Shaniqua: I definitely think it's a lot better. I definitely think in biblical times as well as within the last century, women who were not having children, women who were quote unquote barren, they were ostracized. They were looked at as something as being wrong. You know, I read something the other day and it was so funny because someone was say something about you all you all keep talking about these women not being able to have kids and these marriages, but you know, men do have low sperm count. I loved it. Was like, right, because the assumption is always is that it's the woman's issue in a marriage Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: if a child is being produced, and with excluding that it could also be a man's issue. But I think that it has gotten a lot better. But definitely when it comes to Old Testament, New Testament times, within the last century, women are not ostracized as much when it comes to them not having children. But you Tiana: huh. Shaniqua: still see it. If you have a couple that has been married, you you have women asking when you women and men, when you gonna have some kids, that intrusive question that's asked, is there something wrong? So I think that from a church standpoint, it has gotten a lot better than it was, but it's still there because it's still an underlying shame. It's just not, it's not as shame, shame, shame Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: as it was once. Tiana: Yeah, and I think that has a lot to do with society as a whole, but then also social media, with women coming on and sharing, you know, why they're waiting or why they don't have children. Some women flat out say, I don't want kids. And that's your right. I feel like I feel like that's your right. Shaniqua: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's all right. I can't wait for more men to come out and be like, we don't have kids because I got a low sperm count. But that ain't gonna happen. But we'll see. We'll Tiana: yeah. Shaniqua: see. We'll see. Free your brothers, men. Free your brothers. Let them know. Hey, if you have a low sperm count, it's okay. But you know, actually, I came across some guy on Instagram. I can't remember. He actually was telling his story about I think he something as a child happened to him and he how he was not able to have kids and that he was sterile. And so it was such a beautiful story and such a rare story. And he was a black man and so many people were in the comments saying things and he was talking about how that impacted his dating life. But Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: There are conversations like that that should be had with men and women. And so, brothers, if you have low sperm count, if there's something that's going on in your life that prohibits you from a a standpoint of even having children yourself, share your story because it's such a void right now and there should be no shame. I know we're talking about women in the model Christian, but there should be no shame in this. Tiana: Yeah, and I know we're talking about this in a funny way, but absolutely. There should be no shame. No shame Shaniqua: Yeah. Yeah. Tiana: at all. but I think, you know, everybody has to go through their process of getting through the shame of really telling their story. But we're telling you Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. Tiana: here that come on now, everybody be honest. It takes two, it takes two to make a baby. Shaniqua: Yes, everyone be honest. It does. It does. It does. Okay, so you have sh you i anything else about me that you want to ask? Because now I feel like it's time for me to turn the turn the tie. But is there anything else about me you want to ask? Tiana: No, I we can turn it at. Shaniqua: Okay. Okay, so one of the things that we've talked about is that you are a divorcee. And with that being, you would have been a divorcee, you do have two children, and so now you are quote unquote what they would term the term a single mother. But being a divorcee, when we were talking beforehand, you you mentioned that you only had a hundred dollars in your bank account. after your divorce or when you I don't know if this was after the divorce, but when you left that situation, you had a hundred dollars in your bank account and you had one storage unit packed with items, including the kids' toys. So take us back to that season in your life. What did starting over look like? Tiana: Ooh, it's ghetto. It was it's it was so well, it depends. Yeah, but both Shaniqua: Would not recommend or would recommend. Yeah, both. Tiana: is ghetto, but it's been fulfilling. So yes, I left my home that I had built with my ex with a hundred dollars in my bank account. that was one of the lowest moments of my life because there was a lot going on. So my grandmother had passed away that April. This all happened last year. So my grandmother passed away April 16th. I had my first birthday April 19th without her. And then a week and a half later, I'm leaving the house with my kids. So that it was it was very low. if I look back at that moment, I didn't know what starting over looked like. I had no plan. I'm the oldest of three kids. I always got a plan. I'm I'm the I'm the example. I'm the leader. I'm the model. I always have a plan. I didn't have a plan. So I had no idea what starting over even looked like. I had to really, really, really, really and truly rely on God because I didn't know what to do. Here Shaniqua: Mm, mm. Tiana: I am with two kids. Here I am. With this idea that I'm gonna grow old with this person, we're gonna raise our kids together, we're gonna help raise our grandkids together, we're gonna have this future and this life, and then I leave with a hundred dollars and two kids. Shaniqua: Not what you had planned. Tiana: Not what I had planned. Shaniqua: But you knew you needed to leave it. Tiana: Yes, I did. I did. There were some different things going on within the marriage that I had hid a lot of it, out of shame, one out of Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: shame, two out of this identity that I had created, this this Proverbs 31 woman that I was trying to model. And there she did that there she go. Shaniqua: there she comes. There there she go. Inserting herself. Tiana: Inserted herself. So yeah, there were some things going on within a marriage and fine when it hit that break in point, it was just that point of I can't do this any longer. I'm gonna have to do something different. Shaniqua: Okay. Okay. So I have a couple of questions for you, and we're gonna come back to some of that. You Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: mentioned that you had to start over, you only had a hundred dollars in your life, or in your bank account, and you were the oldest of three people, three children always expected to have it together. When we Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: were talking, you mentioned that your realtor gave you a bed and your Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: mom and your community chipped in to your new place that you were moving into. So Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: Tell me about that. What was it like allowing people to see you have a need, especially if you people expected you to have it together? Tiana: Mm-hmm. Well, well, also let me backtrack. Shaniqua: Okay. Tiana: I I have I got the degrees. I got a very good job work for a very good company. And so all of that identity, all of that what we had built, all of that couple's goals came crashing down. And so to actually have a need, to actually have to say, I don't, I don't even know what we're gonna sleep on. I need help, that was devastating. But that that happened later within the story. The first Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: devastation was I left with a hundred dollars. and then going through a divorce, it's not cheap. We got Shaniqua: Mm. Tiana: things to split up. We still got bills that need to be paid so that you keep your credits going tag. So that's your your truck and your stuff ain't getting repoled. I didn't have it. Half the time, I didn't even have it to feed us. my parents, we stayed with them. Where would I? I I didn't have nowhere to stay. I didn't have any extra money to go and and find an apartment for us. And so that was a total shock to me. here I am, 33 years old with nothing, two kids, living back with my parents. Shaniqua: Okay. Since you re reoriented us back to the start, I have a c and I'm and I I know we have some things planned for next week's episode, so I'm trying not Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: to ask all of the episode questions, but you mentioned that it all came crashing down when we were talking, and this is something I didn't know is that you and your your ex husband that you all were pretty much in the public eye, that Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: you were in the public eye. Tell us a little bit about that because you all were looked at as couple goals. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: and so how did shame play into that as well? So you have the Proverbs 30 woman, 31 woman that was already in your psyche, but then you have a very public-facing relationship Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: that that public that that people look at as relationship goals, which I hate, but hey, there we go. We do it. Like I wanna be like them. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: And there may have been some shame associated with that. So walk me through that too. Tiana: it was a lot of shame. It was a lot of shame because we were together almost 15 years. And so when people saw me, they saw him. When they saw him, they saw me. And so, in in everybody's head, it was like, yes, this is them. And then, I've been on social media for a minute. I I've always been posting. And so, I wasn't I wasn't posting the not so good things, but I was posting what I thought was good and I was putting those up on a pedestal and We're a married couple and we have issues, but we can work through it, d doing all the things. Doing all the things, right? I think sometimes when when you hear an enough of, you're a goal, you're a goal, you start to present yourself as that. And so the Shaniqua: Mm. Tiana: way I was showing up online was presenting yes, we are a goal. Yes, yes, we are. People ain't know, I'm borderline almost dying, you know, behind the scenes. so it was it was it was a lot of shame. Shaniqua: So is the shame different when you feel that you failed other people's expectations and not only your own? And and how is it different if it is? Tiana: I don't think there's a difference. I Shaniqua: Okay. Tiana: f I feel like I felt both, but because of the space that I was in and this identity that I had created, I was so hung up on what are people gonna think? my God, what are people gonna say? Here we are. He makes he makes Christian music. I'm starting to make music with him. People thinking, you know, this is gonna be a huge thing. People are liking it, they're loving it, and now it's just done. What are people gonna think? And then on top of that, I'm an entrepreneur, so I have a Christian business, and one of my biggest products is called a grow box, and it's a box filled with Christian and inspirational items, and I was making it for newlywed couples. So how am I sitting up here making this for newlywed couples? I'm praying over these boxes for everybody else's marriages, and mine is quietly falling apart and nobody knows. Shaniqua: Okay, so it wasn't only a physical restart. It sounds like it was a spiritual, mental, emotional restart when the image being torn down, your identity, which one have you found it to be the hardest to rebuild? Tiana: definitely my identity, who I thought I was. That Shaniqua: Who are you? Tiana: that was a I am a daughter of a king. Yes, Shaniqua: And that's who you always been. Tiana: always. But I didn't I didn't see that. I thought, nope, I'm a wife. I'm a mother. That was my identity. And when all that came crashing down, ooh, it was ugly. It was so ugly, but God really had to sit with me. God has sat with me a lot and this is why I love God and why I love Jesus so much. He has carried me through so much. Because he had to sit with me and tell me before I called you wife or mother, I called you daughter. Shaniqua: as you were saying that, and my biggest sigh is that I think that that's one of the fallacies or one of the things of the Proverbs 31 model, is that it teaches all it it associates an identity with women associated to the function of a woman versus to them just simply being the daughter of the king. And that inherently creates in us again this hierarchy amongst women and who has this and who is this. But it creates this level within us that if I'm not these things, then what am I? So I I'm so glad that you said that and so glad that you Tiana: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: came to that realization. Tiana: Yeah, it was it was hard. It was hard. I don't think I would have come to that realization if my marriage did not fail. Yes. Yeah. Shaniqua: Really. Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. Beauty from ashes. He Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: will turn beauty. Make make make beauty from ashes. Tiana: Absolutely. Shaniqua: Okay, so you also, when we talk, you mentioned that you protected the image in the picture. And there's a lot of things that you kept quiet about. And that you lifted your ex-husband up in public and with the hope that the marriage would get better without naming anyone or anything. What what do you feel the church teaches women that makes them feel that protecting the image feels like faithfulness? Tiana: I really think this idea of I really think this idea of being honest about what you're going through is side-eyed. no, no, pr protect your spouse. And I'm not saying you gotta go and just run run your mouth about everything that's going on and talk about your spouse all bad. But if there are certain things going on, like in my is in my instance, I didn't realize that certain things were classified under abuse, under emotional and mental and some financial abuse. and in an effort of, well, I don't want people to look at him differently. I just was quiet about a lot. I hid a lot. Instead of it just being, hey, I need to run this by a woman who's been married or by a married c a older married couple. Like, is this normal? Should should should I be experiencing this as a wife? Should he be doing this as a husband? But I kind of think that is It's it's sad eye. And then also you don't sometimes you don't know who you can trust. Sometimes you don't know who you can confide in and where that safety lies at. and I think most people are just they're just thinking, well, I'm gonna be rejected or I'm not gonna be hurt. So I'm just not gonna say anything. I'm just gonna try to deal with it. Shaniqua: Do you think the church is culpable or should be recognized its role in setting that up for women? Tiana: I think so. Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: To feel that way. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: So in the book of Ruth, we have Naomi, where she says that I went out full and the Lord has brought me home empty again. Naomi went out, she had a husband, she had two sons, but when she came back home, she had nothing and instructed people to call me Mara, which was bitter. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: but then God rebuilt her life through the people that were surrounding her. Where did God show up for you through people? Tiana: Hmm. My support system has been so, so, so supportive. not just in a sense of like financially, but in a sense of creating a space for me to just be honest. Cause if you ever gone through a divorce, a bad breakup, you need somewhere to release all of that extra stuff. Because if you don't, you can release it in ways that's not healthy. you can have blow ups, some people go to jail. So just just having that space to just express myself and not be judged because I was so scared and shameful of what are people gonna think that I needed that space to just be as naked, vulnerable as possible and for people to say, you know what, she just needs to get this out. She just needs some support. She just needs some prayer. She just needs a shoulder to cry on, but not judge me for it. Because it was just a hard moment that I was going through. Shaniqua: So what would you say to the woman whose marriage looks like couple goals online right now, but where it's not at home? What would you say to her? Tiana: I would say you don't have to hide that. I would say couple goals is not all that you are. Because first and foremost, you are the daughter of a king. He is the son of a king. There's more to you. And you don't have to up uphold an image that's essentially killing you silently. Like Shaniqua: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Tiana: because you matter. Your joy matters, your peace matters, your happiness matters. And so I don't think you should feel the burden of carrying a title that God didn't give you. God doesn't He doesn't call us couple goals. Shaniqua: We just didn't. Tiana: That's not something that He calls us. Nowhere. Shaniqua: Ain't no word in scripture. Tiana: So that's not that's not a title that you feel like you have to carry or that you're letting people down because it's not working. Sometimes it just doesn't work. And that's okay. Because God has that written into the plan as well. Shaniqua: Amen. Amen. Okay, looking back at Genesis, before the fall, we scripture tells us that they were both naked, the man and his wife, and that they were not ashamed. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: But after the fall, we see Adam and Eve sewing these little fig leaves together, covering them. And Adam said, I was afraid because I was naked and I hid myself. That was his response to God when God was saying, Where are you? And he said, I was afraid because I was naked and I hid myself. Shame's first move was to cover and to hide. What proverbial fig leaves do Christian women sow right now today? Tiana: Hmm. just happy photos. we we so happy. Instagram, Shaniqua: It's right now. Tiana: twenty second reels of a vacation. Shaniqua: Right, right. The whole other time y'all were mad at each other. Tiana: I'm talking about I I'm talking about about to claw each other faces off. Shaniqua: Right, right. But that vacation pick look real good. Tiana: It looked real good. Them beach videos with them waves with the food with your with your drink. Shaniqua: Right, right. Didn't see when the wave almost took you out. Tiana: With your drink. You don't need don't nobody know y'all, y'all finna claw each other. The kids ain't having a good time. Don't nobody know all that. But but you made Shaniqua: Girl, right, right, right, right. Tiana: this pretty real. You put this music on it. Everything's fine. Shaniqua: Baby, everything's fine. And that's not just for married women, like single women. Baby, I can post up, I done had a vacation, but what my bank account look like after that? What's your bank account look like after that? You done showed these Tiana: Exactly. Shaniqua: pretty shoes, but do you have food on your table? It Tiana: Mm mm mm. Shaniqua: could be anything. We have so many fig leaves that we put up that we sew to cover and hide what shame we feel, to cover those gaps. Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: because we don't want people to fully see us. We don't want people to fully see us. That we don't want people to fully see our flaws. Tiana: Mm mm. Mm-mm. Shaniqua: And everything is a highlight reel. Everything is a highlight reel. And that's one of the things that I I tr why I try to be so transparent with things. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: And be like, listen, my life ain't all what it looks like. And it's it's clear, it's it's whatever that saying is, like what it's cracked up to be. it ain't, it ain't. I'm I try Tiana: Yeah, yeah. Shaniqua: to be very transparent about that because I don't want anyone to look at me and be like, Shaniqua is my model, Shaniqua's my goal, baby. Tiana: Mm. Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: Be careful if you want this life to be your goal, because this life has been hard. Life ain't been no crystal skirt case. Tiana: Yeah. And I and I think we fall into that habit because we don't really want to look at our reality. Like we don't want Shaniqua: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Tiana: to sit in that. So if I can create this 30 second reel or post this picture with a smile and I can live in that. Then I don't Shaniqua: I can live in that. I can live in it. Tiana: have to face what I'm going through. So yeah, you you're absolutely right. So we're we're talking about shame. So we have to go back to the Bible, the woman. With the issue of blood has suffered many things of many physicians and has spent all that she had. She came up behind Jesus and the crowd to stay hidden. He stopped as she told him all the truth in front of everyone, and he called her daughter. Why didn't he let her slip away quietly? Shaniqua: First of all, I love, love, love, love, love that exchange. Because that woman was broken, that woman was tired, and she had nothing else to lose. And she didn't care who heard what they would have prescribed as her shame. Because don't forget, in those times, a woman on her cycle was unclean. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: So she couldn't be around crowds. She couldn't be around people. So she had had this issue of blood for many, many, many, many, many, many years. And so she was ostracized. She was unclean, but she didn't care. When she saw Jesus and she knew healing was at hand, she was like, all these people can fall to the wayside because I'm going after my healing. So I love that. and I think one of the reasons that Jesus did not let that slip. Away quietly is because of the power of her testimony that she wanted it so bad. She wanted that healing. She believed that that healing was possible through him, that he had to take note. And you know, and the disciples try to, there are many people that are touching you. And he was like, But I have felt power leave me. Because he knew that that woman that when he when when she touched him, when she touched his garments. It didn't say that she touched his body, his skin. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: She touched his garments, that her faith was so powerful that she believed that she could be healed and she was healed. And so Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: I don't think that there was any way that Jesus was just going to let that woman go. Because it was such a powerful testimony through the ages of someone who was broken, who had, who had lost things, who was ostracized, who was looked at as unclean. And it was someone whose faith was beyond all of that. And she was willing to risk it all. I don't Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: care that you finna tell my business. I don't care. I need this healing. And so Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: that's one I love, love, love that story of healing. you know, I've I've written books as well, and one of those things is God I one of my last books was To God be the Glory. Because when you look at the story of healing, when you look at how God Jesus healed, it was only I think one one healing that was really done in private. And then there was another healing that he was like, Don't go and tell. But for the Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: most part, the healings were in public. Like, Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: I love it. These people were like, I don't care. I don't have nothing to lose. And I think that's why Jesus didn't let her slip away. I think that's why. Yeah. Tiana: Mm. I agree. I agree. Shaniqua: So in the shame we carry, we carry our we in in shame. We carry ours or do you think that it was handed to us? and how do we tell the difference between the conviction of shame? Excuse me, how do we tell the difference between the Holy Spirit's conviction and shame? Tiana: I think it's both. I think shame can be ours, but I also think it's handed down to us. Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: especially in in my case when we talk about divorce, the first thing you hear, God hates divorce. Okay. That's that's what it says. But if we go deeper into that, God hates divorce, but he doesn't hate me. Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: So because this has been interwoven into my story, that does not mean he he still can't use me. That does not mean. Shaniqua: Girl, make sure you say that again next week too. Tiana: Yes, I that does not mean he has turned his back on me. And so I think when we see other people be told things like that, automatically when we go through something similar, here's that shame. Here it is. Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: And the difference between the Holy Spirit convicting you and shame, so conviction conviction isn't used to make you feel bad about yourself. Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: Conviction is used to reveal something that may be grieving the Holy Spirit or that may be holding you back from becoming who God needs for you to be. But it's not necessarily something is wrong with you. You're not good enough. God don't like you. He don't love you. He don't want you. No. Shame really takes us away from God because it Shaniqua: Exactly. Tiana: makes us feel like, you know, we're not doing anything right. We aren't good enough. We might as well just turn turn turn ourselves to a corner and not not even look at God because he's just so mad at us or disappointed in us. But conviction? Mm-mm. None. Shaniqua: And we need to remember there's no condemnation in Christ. No condemnation. Tiana: None at all. God is a forgiving God. Shaniqua: He is a God of grace. Tiana: Yes. And mercy. Because because, Shaniqua: And mercy. Tiana: you know, we we could be foolish even when we Shaniqua: Yes. Tiana: don't know it yet. You know, when we growing in God and and that conviction isn't resting like it should be, there is still mercy in place. God is Shaniqua: Yes. Tiana: not turning his back on us because we're making mistakes. Shaniqua: Yes. And I love, and that that reminded me of of Psalm twenty-three with King David, that, all the days of his life. What did he say? Grace and mercy, is that, is that and I will follow me all the days of my life. Like, Tiana: Mm-hmm. Yes. All the days. Shaniqua: like people forget, yes, David was loved by God in a after his own heart, but David was a murderer. He was a an adulterer. Like, let's not forget these. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, he took that man's wife. Shaniqua: Yeah, so he so David was very familiar with grace and mercy. And so understanding that. Yeah. Yeah. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Yes, absolutely. So Paul wrote, If I yet please man, I shall not be the servant of Christ. How much of the shame we carry is really about pleasing people? Shaniqua: Think a fair amount. I won't say all of it, but a fair amount. It's about pleasing other people because we're we are we worry or we care about what people think of us. and again, that expectation, and not living up to whatever that expectation may be. And so I think I think a lot of that, but we have to recognize that we we are not to please man, you know, we we are to be servants of Christ. Christ. We are to please God. We are to please Christ. And so you can't serve two masters. we hear that applied when it comes to money, but it's also applied to when it comes to the applause of man. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: idolatry comes in many forms. And so you we have to be able to understand that. We have to understand that as men and specifically even as women, we have to understand that. Tiana: Absolutely. Shaniqua: So there is a model Christian woman. we've talked about her in Proverbs 31, that pedestal that we have, I won't say it's been force fed to us, but it's definitely been fed to us as one as women. What happens when that mask come off comes off and the shame is left in its place? Tiana: Mm. It for me, like I said, that that process of not having my identity rooted in being a wife and a mother was some of the the darkest moments I think I've had to walk through. Because it's it's this realization of I've been living a lie. And if we're not careful, if we're not walking through something like that with God, shame can rest on you and it can keep you in that same cycle and not and not lead you to your breakthrough. Shaniqua: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Say it one more time. Tiana: Because it it shame can rest on you. If we're not careful, if we let shame rest on us in in that place of recognizing that you've been living a lie, you won't be led to your breakthrough. Because in order to break through something, you have to first know that something was wrong with it. And so when hap when happens when that mask comes off, you're exposed. You're exposed. And in that in that exposing, I really think it's important to walk that out with God so that you're not being stuck in shame. Shaniqua: that reminds me of the crucible. And a crucible is a hot oven. It's something that can that that melts down, that removes the impurities Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: from from metals. And so, you know, the Bible speaks to that even about us with our own journeys. And so we can look at the process of what we're going through that it's is we're in the fire, we're in the midst of something, but The purpose of it is not to kill us. It is to purify us. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: It is to remove those impurities. It's to remove these, these false images or idols or whatever we've placed upon ourselves when it comes to expectations of our identity. It's to remove Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: all of those things that are not of God, that God never placed on us, that He never said that we should define ourselves by. But if you don't continue the process, like you said, you won't fully reach. and become who God is calling you to be. It's a purification Tiana: Yes. Shaniqua: process. And don't get stuck in the the the the the shame of the process and not Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: become purified. Tiana: Because truth be told, none of us are perfect. The o Shaniqua: Baby, none of us. Tiana: The only perfect human that was on this earth was Jesus. We don't have a heaven or a hell to put nobody in. Shaniqua: Maybe I don't, I don't, I don't. I might wanna send a couple of people to help, but I can't. Tiana: We have to pray for. Shaniqua: Girl gotta pray for Love you with the look blood the blood of the lamb. Tiana: But yeah, don't let shame take root because none of us have it all together. We are all on the same Shaniqua: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Tiana: journey, all trying to figure it out. And I really think, yes, that process leads us to our breakthrough, but it also leads us to who God needs us to become to help someone else. Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: Because in Revelation chapter twelve, verse eleven it says they overcame him by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony. So what does telling your story out loud do to shame? Shaniqua: It it it it reduces it, it dism disminishes it. again, if if can't nobody hold nothing over me that I ain't already told, there is no shame. You take back your power the more you do tell your story. You definitely Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: do that. Definitely that. I know we're we're we're a few minutes away from the end and we just have a couple more questions. I wanna I wanna bring up Isaiah 54. it speaks to the woman who did not bear, and it also promises that she shall not remember the reproach of thy widowhood anymore. And so, in effect, it talks to us both, you know, even though that you are not a widow, you are a single woman, you have entered into this phase of your life, and I did not bear children. And so both of our stories are in that chapter. What would it look like for the church to make room for women who didn't fit the Proverbs 31 model? Tiana: I think it looks like understanding. I think it looks like understanding that everybody's story is different. And there there isn't like a a hierarchy system on who should matter and who shouldn't. I think there Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: should be space for everyone because you never know who's gonna come in that church with the same story. So Shaniqua: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Tiana: it looks like understanding, Shaniqua: Go ahead. Tiana: it looks like empathy, it looks like openness. Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: And and and just a space for us to just be honest. Shaniqua: And I would I would go even fur not further, but I would also say stop naming these women's ministry Proverbs 31 and associate the tie with Tiana: Please Shaniqua: it because that's not every woman's story. And you're alien Tiana: Can we choose another nay? Shaniqua: you're alienating a huge group of women who don't fit that model. And it's and it's happening more and more and more as more women are not being married, having children, you know. I do believe we in end times, but that's another conversation. But the Bible speaks of what will happen, that there will, be anonymity between men and women. So relationships will be breaking down. And so what happens if you're not that Proverbs 31 woman? What happens is you're still a daughter of the king. And so being able to speak to that more so versus this model of what a woman should be. and and I will go even further. versus that model of what a wife should be, that model of what a business owner should be, that model of what a mother should be. Because even mothers don't fit Proverbs thirty one all the time. And even wives don't fit Proverbs thirty one w all the time. That that that but just be aware of what that checklist is and how it speaks to women and how it can cultivate shame. Tiana: Yes, I think I think we need to ditch the checklist and grab up identity. Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Okay. Last thing. Then I'll cl we can close it out. Psalms 34 and 5 says, They looked unto him and were lightened and their faces were not ashamed. I think both speak to I think that scripture can speak to women listening, women who are listening and who may be carrying shame because she isn't her. What is it that you want her to know? That woman? And I'll answer the question too. Tiana: I I want that woman to sit with this question. Did God give me the shame? Shaniqua: I ain't answering nothing, yeah. You said it all. Tiana: I'm I'm I'm one that's really reflective and and so I sit with questions a lot. Did God give Shaniqua: Mm. Tiana: you that shame? Shaniqua: Did God give you that shame? Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: Yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's good. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: That's really, really good. Because God is not gonna give us shame. The Holy Spirit would convict us. He's not gonna condemn us. Tiana: Mm mm. Shaniqua: I don't have anything to add. Tiana: So then, yeah. So then we have to decide what are we carrying? Are we are we actually carrying what God says about us? Or are we carrying opinions and what the enemy tries to remind us of who he thinks we are, because he don't know us for real. Only God knows us. He only knows our habits and some of the things that we pick up. And so he can use those things to accuse us of things, but he doesn't know us. God knows you. Shaniqua: Amen. Amen. Amen. And he is an accuser and his his his his desire is to steal, kill, and destroy. If he can't do that from your physical self, he's gonna do that with your spiritual self. He's gonna do that with your emotional self and so your mental self. So all recognize that. Recognize that the enemy don't mean you no good. Tiana: Mm-mm. Shaniqua: And neither does shame. Tiana: Nope. You can tell him take that shame and stick it with the sun, don't shine. It has. I have enjoyed Shaniqua: This has been a great conversation. Thank you. Thank you. Tiana: this. And I think this is a setup for next week. So next week we are going to be talking about divorce doesn't disqualify you. And ooh we I gotta do some more talking, y'all. Ooh we Shaniqua: You do. I'ma be sitting back in the cuff like, Okay, let me ask this question. Tiana: But I'm so but you know what? You know what? A sharing of the testimony, it sets others free. So I don't mind. I get up here and I talk. And we're gonna have a Shaniqua: Amen. Amen. Tiana: special guest with us. So I'm so excited, y'all. But thank you for joining us today. And I pray that you all join us on the next episode. And we'll talk to y'all later. Bye.