Latest / Infidels / What He Learned Watching Pro-Palestine Politics Turn Cruel | Michael Gamal
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- Richard Landes: We're here today with Michael Gamal, also known by his Instagram handle Coptic Kapara. And very interesting man, very interesting journey. So I think rather than blather on myself, let me turn to you, Michael, and tell us what kind of a journey you took. took and what role October seventh played in that journey. Michael: Thank you so much for having me. so Richard Landes: Well. Michael: you know, to try to summarize it as best as I can. I when I entered college around 2007 or 2006, I started meeting Arabs and Muslims, like a lot of them for the first time in Southern California. Now I grew up in Massachusetts prior to that. Richard Landes: Uh-huh. Michael: and in Massachusetts, very, very small. Middle Eastern community. I mean, ex but in I mean my city, Lowell, Massachusetts, it felt like I was basically the only Egyptian, you know, Middle Eastern person there. So I didn't really grow up with a I didn't grow up with a lot of Middle Eastern people, even though I went to a Coptic Orthodox church. But even the Coptic Orthodox Church was about an hour away. And with Coptic people, they tend to want to live nearby the church. So I didn't even grow up close to that community. But when I entered college in Southern California, started meeting a lot of Arabs and Muslims, you know, I began to feel like, I found my tribe. This is where I naturally belong. You know, similar similar immigrant experience. They grew up listening to the same music I listened to, watching the same movies with their parents. You know, it felt it felt very, very familiar. unfortunately, what came with that was a political narrative that you sort of had to adopt in order to fit in, which is the anti-Israel narrative. I mean, you really can't have much of a social life in that community if you're not anti-Israel. And so that got me, that was my beginning. That was the beginning of a 20 year journey in extremism and anti Semitism. And you know, I started off relatively naive. I had very sort of Western ideals as far as the conflict. So, you know, I believed in a two-state solution and stuff like that, but that quickly got crushed because they let you know immediately that they don't believe in a two-tate two-state solution and that, you know, it's Palestine from the river to the sea. There's no such thing as Israel, no such thing as innocent Israelis. I mean, it came very, very quick. It's not like they tried to, you know, gradually Richard Landes: Sugarcoat it. Michael: right. yeah, no sugarcoating whatsoever. I mean now, surprisingly, I mean now, like could you believe it's even worse? Like you I sometimes I think back to like my introduction to that and I thought it was pretty crazy how I was intro it introduced to it. And now it's even worse. I couldn't have imagined like if you told me twenty years ago that it would just get crazier and crazier and crazier. I I wouldn't have believed it, but that's exactly what happened. And October seventh didn't move the needle for me. That's the thing, is I was such an extremist. It didn't move the needle for me. It wasn't until around April or May, April, May of 2024 where I, you know, pulled myself out of it. But even then, you know, even pulling myself out of it, I didn't pull myself out of it to then support Israel and the Jewish people. I pulled myself out of it initially and I was like, you know what? Both sides very again, I I went back to sort of that naive Western mindset where you just Wanna think both sides are equally at fault and all this. And I thought I would just be Richard Landes: And can't we just get along here? Michael: right. And that that sentiment lasted for about two and a half, three weeks. the two events that really shifted my perspective was the rescue of Noa Argamani and the attack on the the Druze children of Mej del Shems in July. So Richard Landes: Mm-hmm. Michael: that was June 8th, I believe that Noa Argamani was rescued. And July, I don't know the exact date, but I do remember in in July, that was the attack on the Druze Children in Mejel Shems. Those two events propelled me towards Israel advocacy, even though I didn't realize it at the time, but that's exactly what it did. Yeah. Richard Landes: In what way? Michael: Well, when I pulled myself out in like let's say May, right? May twenty twenty four, I scrubbed my Instagram of like anything that was anti Israel or pro-Palestine, like took off free Palestine from my bio and stuff like that. I mean, really scrubbed it clean. You would never guess that I ever participated in those types of activities. Richard Landes: W what made you change your mind like that? Michael: It was a it was like this accumulation of small moments up until then. the first one was a couple weeks after October seventh. I was in San Diego. I was bar hopping, walking from place to place with my then girlfriend and our friends. And as we reach the red light and I'm waiting for the light to turn green across the street, I am there's like this electric utility box. It's about like four feet tall. And on it there were posters of the hostages. And I'm looking at the posters of the hostages. And all I can think about was how online I had seen, I had seen people videos of people defacing the posters of the hostages. And I remember I just looking at these pictures of hostages, and I'm thinking about the videos I saw, and it like I went like my body went numb. Like it felt like the blood in my veins evaporated. It's weird. It was this weird feeling of your body going numb, but then this sort of like warm sensation, like you feel it in your face first, and then it comes down to the rest of your body. And I remember telling myself, am I allowed to curse? Or Okay. Richard Landes: Yeah, you're allowed to curse. Michael: I remember telling myself, you might be a piece of shit for the stuff that you support, but you're not such a piece of shit that you would ever deface the posters of the hostages. And up until a week ago, that stood out to me still up until a week ago as like one of the cruelest things I had ever seen was people tearing down the posters of the hostages. because, you know, imagine imagine somebody gets caught, you know, tearing down the poster of a lost dog. Like that person would be like shunned from society, like he'd be tarred and feathered. Really? Richard Landes: Yeah. Michael: and so. The you would have small moments like that leading up to May twenty twenty-four and May twenty twenty four. I guess you could just say like I was like I guess I left before I lost whatever of my humanity I had left, you know. Richard Landes: Hmm. Michael: I remember the last moment was after the IRGC missile and drone attack against Israel in April of two t two thousand four. Richard Landes: Right. Michael: And you know, you're seeing Israel and its allies, particularly its Arab allies, shoot down the missiles. So countries like Saudi Arabia, or in the Kingdom of Jordan. And I'm watching all my friends and everybody who's pro-Palestine condemn these countries for shooting down the missiles. You know, even though that if because part of having, you know, a non, you know. Whether it's a peace treaty or you're in a state of non-aggression with Israel like Saudi Arabia is, nobody is Saudi Arabia doesn't have peace with Israel, but it doesn't have, you know, has sort of like a unofficial non-aggression pact. It's not physically trying to fight Israel. If you allow your airspace to be used by, you know, a regime like the IRGC to harm your one of your neighbors, you then become a belligerent in that war. And then Israel would have every right to respond. or for them to use your airspace to counterattack the IRGC at least. And so Richard Landes: Right. Right. Michael: I I looked at it. I remember this was sort of like the last thing. It was kind of like the straw that broke the camel's back that made me scrub my t entire account. I was just like, these people really just want to see the world burn. Like they don't care where these missile land, where these missiles land. and I think I'm pretty sure the only person that got hurt from that was actually like a little Bedouin girl that was like maybe six, seven years old. and so but for them it's worth it because it's meant to hurt Israel. Anything that is meant to hurt Israel, regardless of how much damage it causes other people, is objectively a good thing. That is their mindset. Richard Landes: Right. A and yet, I mean, this has always struck me because so much of the position, at least as it presents itself in the West, is about compassion and the suffering of the Palestinians. But it's only when Israelis hurt Palestinians, if Arabs hurt Palestinians or Iranians, Muslims, it doesn't register. Or it's a it's Michael: Not at all. Richard Landes: a it's a worthy sacrifice. Michael: Right. Actually sometimes, you know, they'll they'll like when you see videos of Hamas torturing and killing Gazans, they actually cheer it on. A lot of the you know, people in the pro Palestine camp, they actually cheer it on because they're like, well, they were probably spies and collaborators anyway. You know, there's no due process under Hamas. There's not it's just this Yeah. Richard Landes: Wow. Right, right, right. And apparently no due process amongst the Palestinianists in the West. Michael: And you know, my my father was actually an Arabic interpreter for the Marines and the Navy in Iraq. And he did some Richard Landes: Uh-huh. Michael: he did some work in Afghanistan too, but he was mostly in Iraq. And what he would tell me is like to be accused like like all you have to do is accuse somebody of working with the Americans or working with the Israelis. You just have to accuse somebody for Richard Landes: Right. Michael: them to take you in, torture you, kill you, threaten to rape your family, kill your family, rape your wife or your daughter. That's all it takes. And these people, you know, in the pro-Palestine camp, they will cheer this stuff on. They just assume that Hamas it has like the moral high ground to to, you know, pursue these people. It's it's really stunning. Richard Landes: I i it reminds me a little of honor killings, which is o all a woman has to do is be accused of shaming her family and that's sufficient. It doesn't doesn't have to actually be real. Michael: Right. The accusation, an accusation suffices, you know, and it's it's interesting because we're I'm on the Infidel podcast, right? And you can go like in Richard Landes: Right. Yes, we're on the Infidel Podcast. Michael: and in in countries like Pakistan and in Egypt, for instance, and Egypt, you know, I'm Egyptian. Richard Landes: Right. Michael: again, non Muslims, all all it takes is an accusation. So for Coptic people, pretty regularly. Richard Landes: Right, right. Michael: Rumors will come about that a Coptic man is having a sexual relationship with a Muslim woman and they will target either that that guy or that guy's family. Like that's all it takes is a rumor. Richard Landes: Have have you been to have you spent time in Egypt? Michael: Yeah, I spent a lot of time in Egypt up until the age of 13. You know, I would go back pretty regularly during the summers, like Richard Landes: I see. Uh-huh. Michael: every other summer. after 13, you know, my family still wanted to go and visit, but then I think it I think I was thirteen or fourteen when nine-eleven happened. And my Richard Landes: Uh-huh. Michael: family sort of took a backseat from visiting the Middle East just because they didn't know what direction things were gonna go in. Richard Landes: Right. Michael: And it's You know, it's too bad that I haven't visited since then. I don't think I can go visit now, but that's sort of, you know, that's a sacrifice I I made to to make the content that I do. Richard Landes: Right. Ready. Michael: But I also at this point in my life, I don't really have much of a desire to go back and visit. I'd seen everything that I needed to see. I'm considering myself very lucky to have seen it all. But, you know, Egypt is not a society that I'm particularly proud of. I'm not happy with the way things are. I don't like how religious minorities are treated. I don't like how women are treated. I don't like how the LGBT community in Egypt is treated. I don't like how, you know, people who are atheist or ex-Muslims are treated. So I mean I Sonny, I just Richard Landes: Infidels. Michael: saw I just saw a video of a German tourist who w that was be that was mistaken for being Israeli. And kids were chasing after this guy and throwing rocks at him and hitting him. And like, why would I ever want to visit a country like that? No, it's a shithole. Richard Landes: Okay. So I I understand that, for instance, the incident with the poster was a sort of moment of acknowledgement that Jews were people and needed to be treated as people. But if I understand correctly, since then you've moved toward in a direction In which Israel becomes a sort of keystone of understanding what's going on? Michael: Came to the understanding again later, you know, several months later, after October 7th, Richard Landes: Right. Michael: that I was defending a bloodthirsty cause. I was defending a bloodthirsty cause rather than defending the victims of that bloodthirsty cause. And the victims were Israelis and Jews, and but not just, you know, not just Israelis and Jews. this is something that I would, this is a belief that I would develop later on. Israel is just the beginning. So whatever Israel is experiencing with its immediate neighbors or you know a regime like the IRGC, Israel is just the beginning. Eventually it comes for everybody. Israel is the first line of defense for free societies against Islam. And I say Islam, not Islamism, because in reality there is no such thing as Islamism. There's only Islam. Richard Landes: So that's a really interesting point. It's also a point that Danny Burmaui makes. but it's you know, there are a number of people who won't come on the podcast because they feel that we are not sufficiently distinguishing between, well, let's put it this way between supremacist Islam and Normal Islam, because at least some, I try and maintain the distinction at least as an opening, that there are there is an Islam which isn't supremacist, that there are Muslims who are capable of practicing their religion without embracing this kind of very aggressive and contemptuous supremacism for anybody who isn't for anybody who's an infidel. Michael: That's not Islam then. Islam is by its nature supremacist. It's not as and I get it, people you know want to draw this distinction between Islamism and Islam and Islamists and Muslims, but who was Muslim? Who was Muhammad? Was Muhammad an Islamist or was he a Muslim? Abu Bakr Osman, Richard Landes: Right. Well, from Michael: Ali, Omar Baktab, are these Muslims or are they Islamists? You know, I Richard Landes: Right. Michael: I Get what people want to do. People want to sort of, you know, create separate categories for, you know, the terrorists and then their Muslim friends Richard Landes: Right. Michael: who they don't feel any threat from. But they're their Muslim friends who I'm sure are lovely people. They are what I would like to call mortadilla Muslims. They're bullshit Muslims. Okay. They are not following Islam to a T, which is good. By the way, I want Muslims to sort of like pick and choose. What parts of Islam they're gonna follow, if they're gonna follow it at all. But let's be honest about what Islam is, what Islam teaches. We have to be honest about concepts like wala' and bara, wala il wala, which is enmity and loyalty. 85% of the Muslim world is Sunni. In the hadiths, and it's authentic hadith, it says the final hour will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and they kill them. So it's actually also the only religion in the world. Where it predicts that their followers will commit a genocide against the followers of another religion. These are things that if you have eyes and you're literate, it's very, very plain. Richard Landes: Well, a as a medievalist, I will say that although it's not doctrine, there are moments in the Middle Ages where Christians believed that exterminating the Jews at the apocalyptic moment, at the end of time, was the appropriate thing to do. And in fact, the first crusade is a good example of that. but but it's certainly not there's no there's no equivalent of the hadith that says, yes. Christians should wipe out Jews at the end of time. Michael: Christianity had a very, very ugly history. And if we're gonna be honest, you know, a lot of the church fathers, for a lot of the church fathers antisemitism antisemitism was baked into the cake. So I'm not, you know, sort of diminishing or whitewashing anything about Christianity Richard Landes: Mm. Mm-hmm. Michael: in that s in that regard. But, you know, for instance, in Revelation, the book of Revelation, Richard Landes: Right. Michael: there's nothing that says Christians must slaughter the Jews in order for Jesus to come back. Like there's nothing that says that. Richard Landes: No, although it it does have a figure who isn't explicitly identified as Jesus, but certainly seems like it's Jesus coming with a sword in his mouth and laying waste to Michael: Mm-hmm. Richard Landes: the inhabitants of the earth so that the birds of carrion gorge on their flesh. Michael: But again, you know, this is a sort of prophesized cosmic battle, right? There is no there is no Richard Landes: Right. And it's a divine intervention. Right. Michael: direct there's no call to action for Christians to take up arms and slaughter Richard Landes: Right. Michael: Jews in the same way that the Hadiths predict that Muslims will do it. It's very, you know, it is it truly is unique in that sense. You know, by the way, there's a lot of Richard Landes: All right. Michael: terrible Christians today, even but you know, today. There's still a lot of terrible Christians. Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens, Nick Fuentes. So this isn't Islam bad, you know, all of Christendom is good. No, I'm just we're just focusing on Richard Landes: Right. Michael: Islam because sixty six percent of deadly terror attacks around the world are committed by Muslims. So Richard Landes: Right. And if I understand over seventy percent of the victims are Muslims. Michael: Sure, yeah. But that's also because these terrorist groups, they operate under the the belief that before you can really attack the the non-Muslim countries of like the United States or Israel, that you have to give y that you have to rid yourselves of your own hypocrite leaders. So they'll always attack their own first because they don't see any current Muslim leader as being legitimate. So You know, yes, Muslims are often the first victims, you know, the the overwhelming majority of victims, but that that is by design. And these people, you know, these the the collateral damage of you know, like let's say from groups like Al Qaeda or ISIS, you know, Richard Landes: Right. Michael: I mean not the collater sorry, the sun quite off. The the Muslims that die as a result of, you know, groups like Hamas or Hezbollah or Al Qaeda, they're not killed. because they're Muslims. Like they're they're not k they're killed because they're not Muslim enough, maybe. There's that. But Richard Landes: Right. Right. Michael: you know, they're not being targeted because they are Muslims. Richard Landes: But but it i in fact because in some senses they have less protection than Christians and Jews do, they're the easiest targets. Michael: I don't know that that's completely true. that they have Richard Landes: Okay. Michael: like like listen, if you are a soldier in the Egyptian army or back when you know Bashad al-Assad was still in power, if you're a soldier in the Syrian Arab army, yeah, absolutely. Richard Landes: Right. Michael: You like they wouldn't ask any questions, they'd just kill you right away because you are someone who claims to be a Muslim, but you're in uniform for what they would call a monafik ruler, a hypocrite rutal ruler, right? Richard Landes: Uh-huh. Michael: but You know, when ISIS went through Ramadi in Iraq, you know, they were attacking the Iraqi military. But as long as the general population sort of put its head down and submitted, like they weren't being attacked because they're Muslim. It was different Richard Landes: Nice. Michael: for people like who are like Shia Muslim or, you know, Christians. You know, the Shia they call them Rafidah, refusers. The Christians they call them Nasara, you know, and so they would spray paint. the the l the the first letter of those words on the houses. And for the the Shia, you know, you were marked for death. For the Christians you were marked for, you know, either to pay jizya, convert, or death. so yeah. Richard Landes: Wow. so I get the impression that a lot of Westerners are very reluctant, among other things, to talk about the meaning of the term infidel or kafir, Michael: Mm-hmm. Richard Landes: partly because I mean it's hard for me to express, and I hope you can help me here, but my sense is that they instinctively feel that if if They accept this notion that who knows what percentage of Muslims view them as kafir, view them as literally inferior, and and in some cases worthy of death if they don't submit, that that would force them to be suspicious of all the Muslims they know. And they don't want to do that. So they prefer not to hear about it. Michael: Well, every Muslim who believes in his religion is going to think that the mu non Muslim is a kafr. You know, kafr kufr the word kufr means disbelief. So the kafr is, you know, a disbeliever. And like I Richard Landes: Right. Michael: don't expect Muslims, by the way, to sort of like whitewash that. Like I expect them to believe in their religion and to have that belief. I you know, I respect that they believe that way. Now, do I think that every Muslim thinks that, you know, the non-Muslim has to bow his head down to Islam or, you know, be killed? No. I don't think that every Muslim is like that. And I don't think that anybody who's like visibly Muslim, like some a woman who wears hijab, I don't automatically assume that she has hateful beliefs. In fact, you know, one of my very close friends is Dalia Ziyada, who is a visibly Muslim woman. She wears the hijab and she's the sweetest person in the world. So Richard Landes: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Michael: But no, you're right in the sense that people sort of trivialize they don't necessarily trivialize what kafir means, but they trivialize sort of the stipulations that come with that, right? So Richard Landes: Right. Michael: when Muslims are the minority, they don't really think they have much to fear. Because as long as the Muslims are in the minority, they're not gonna be faced with that decision that, you know, you either pay the jizya, you convert, or you die. But Richard Landes: Great. Michael: if Muslims end up becoming the majority, That is very, very much a possibility. and now people say, well, like, how come Muslim countries don't how come a lot of Muslim countries don't operate that way? Because not every Muslim is exactly like that. And for most Muslim regimes, they have to acclimate in some fashion to the modern day. They have to. It's just it's a matter of pragmatism. You know, you take a country like Egypt. Richard Landes: Right. Right. Michael: Where ten to fifteen percent of the population is Christian. Okay. They're they're not gonna do that to the Christians, although they had the jizya up until I think like eighteen hundred. but the hardliners, the people who very much believe, like if the Sela Salafi El Nur party ever took hold in Egypt, they would absolutely reinstate the jizya. Absolutely they would do it. Richard Landes: All right, so a and the apartheid laws of the Dhimmi. Michael: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Richard Landes: so so help me here. Basically is it a rule of thumb that the more devout a Muslim gets, the more likely he is to be a supremacist? Michael: Course. Of course. Yes. Richard Landes: Well. Michael: The more the more rules you follow in Islam, the more you will be a supremacist. Richard Landes: Well, it's sort of the opposite. Right. Right. All right. And yet Michael: Everything ISIS does is found in the Quran and the Hadiths. ISIS behaves the the ISIS doesn't behave any differently than Muhammad did. Richard Landes: So yeah, in a sense you're saying is Muhammad was the first Islamist. Michael: Yes, yes. Muhammad was the first member of ISIS. Richard Landes: Ouch. All right, so but I I I I hear you. Michael: It is what it is. I'm sorry, but it it is what it is, you know. Like you he he was, you know, I'm sorry, if you were to define who Muhammad was using like modern day terms, not only was he the first member of ISIS, but he was also a rapist, a pedophile and a sex trafficker. Richard Landes: Yeah. And a mass murderer. Michael: Yeah. Yeah. If the Jews conducted, you know, the war following October 7th in the same manner that Muhammad conducted his war against the Jews of Beni Khoreza, it Richard Landes: Right. Michael: actually it would have actually been a genocide. Because what would that have entailed? That any man, any boy that had puberty, that had pubic hair on him was marked for death. And then the women and the children would be enslaved. That's how Muhammad You know, conducted his wars. Richard Landes: And that's in a sense how Hamas conducted its war on october seventh. Michael: Yeah. It was an act of genocide. Richard Landes: All right, so let's get back to this problem that Westerners have with understanding this. it's not like there are the some of them will say, Well, we can't be at war with a billion and a half Muslims. it's not like there are billion and a half Muslims in the diaspora, but the reluctance to even push back is quite striking. I mean there's a a sort of I d I don't want to hear this. Don't talk to me about Michael: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, because people don't want to offend other people. That's that's the root of it. You know, even moderate Muslims, and they exist. I'm not saying that they don't exist, but even moderate Muslims, when you start talking about Islam around them and you start, you know, picking it apart, they get just as defensive. They they do. Richard Landes: Uh-huh. Yeah, that's Bur Maui's point, is that the real phobia here is the Muslims phobia of being criticized. Michael: Like up until, you know, a few weeks ago, I had a close Muslim friend whom I talked to literally every day. Every day. And Richard Landes: Uh-huh. In Arabic. Michael: Arabic and s and English, mostly in English 'cause their dialect was so different from mine. Like I literally couldn't understand them. You know, it's funny 'cause they would just send me videos video after video like, you know. Content in their dialect. I'm like, I cannot understand this. Send me something with the Egyptian dialect, the Lebanese dialect, the Syrian dialect. I'll understand it then. But like, Richard Landes: Right. Right, right, right. Right. Right. Michael: but you know, when I started talking about Islam again, they got very defensive. And they're like, well, how come you don't talk about Judaism? How come you don't talk about Christianity? Because they're not killing at people around the world. And so they get just as defensive. And, Richard Landes: Right. Yeah Yeah. Michael: you know, they don't understand that. Part of like, you know, a social contract for living in the West is that anybody can talk about your religion or your prophet. You know, like I you don't you're they're not entitled to me holding what they believe sacred. Like I don't have that obligation to your religion or your prophet. Richard Landes: I see what you're saying, yeah. Actually, Danny Burmoi put it very interestingly. He said, Look, you know, you can dislike something, but that doesn't mean you have to persecute it. And in some sense it's Westerners refuse to acknowledge that they dislike lots of manifestations of shall we call it, well, let's just for short call it supremacist Islam, that they dislike it but they don't feel they can show it. Michael: Yeah, because listen, a lot of people have Muslim friends right now, and they don't want to offend their Muslim friends. and like I said, I'm sure that their Muslim friends are lovely, but they are essentially this intellectual human shield for the extremists. you know, people's feelings. I'm sorry, I don't I don't give a shit about Muslim feelings. I don't. There's something wrong with your religion. If they're even the re Muslim reformists deep down inside, they know that there's something wrong with their religion. Otherwise, what are they trying to reform? Richard Landes: Right. Right. Well Michael: I can respect Muslims and I do. I actually do respect Muslims, but I don't respect Islam. And I'm not they're not entitled to people liking their religion, refraining from criticizing it. I don't care about their Richard Landes: So Michael: feelings. Richard Landes: right, so and now the Westerners who are so concerned for the feelings of Muslims that they don't want to hurt their feelings and I think to some extent are intimidated, they're perfectly willing to criticize other religions. you know, there are plenty of atheists out there who will take the Bible apart but won't Michael: Mm-hmm. Richard Landes: touch the Quran. Michael: Mm-hmm. Richard Landes: So do you think there's an element of intimidation there? I mean it's not just that they wanna be nice, they wanna be nice to Muslims because they're afraid that if they're not they could be in trouble. Michael: I don't think it's always intimidation. I do think that it's just very fashionable to tear down Christianity, which again, listen, living in a free country, you should be able to tear down Christianity. You should you Richard Landes: Right. Michael: should be able to talk negatively about Christianity, make jokes. You know, I'm somebody who grew up watching South Park, the a show that goes after everybody, right? Like, I I'm not Richard Landes: Right. Right. Right. Equal opportunity offender. Michael: right. So I'm not saying here that Islam and only Islam should be criticizing that you should never criticize any other religion or make fun of it, right? But Richard Landes: Right. No, that's clear. Right. Michael: people, I think Christianity was pretty powerful in the States for a long time, and it still is powerful, you know, depending on what part of the United States you live in. whereas Muslims are seen as the poor, downtrodden minority. And so then there's that idea with like, you're not supposed to punch down, you should only punch up. Richard Landes: huh, right. Michael: And they're using this to their advantage. You you see how it is now in Europe. Like in a country like the UK, they can't speak their minds freely about Islam. They can't. Richard Landes: Right, there's a sort of unofficial blasphemy law that's been Michael: Mm-hmm. Richard Landes: brought in and being enforced. Michael: But then you have these stupid Westerners who, as soon as you start criticizing Islam, you do have these stupid Westerners that act as these, like, you know, sort of a type of human shield where they're like, Well, what about Christianity? What about Judaism? How come you Richard Landes: Right. Right. Michael: don't talk about that? Like, no, they just try to deflect because they have this, you know, savior complex, because they do feel and it's it it is this like bigotry of low expectations. They feel like Muslims are so sensitive that, like, They have to shield them from any sort of negativity, about Islam negative comment about Islam. Richard Landes: Right. So there's an interesting phenomenon here in what you're suggesting, which is that Underneath the formal deference that people pay to Muslims is in fact a rather contemptuous notion that Muslims just aren't up to what the rest of the society is up to, which is handling criticism, so you baby them. Michael: Yeah. That's exactly what it is. Richard Landes: And then on the other side, the Muslims look at Westerners who accept their blasphemy laws and refuse to criticize them with contempt for being cowards. Michael: Yeah, because they are cowards. They are cowards. And by the way, this is like their mentality is this: that wow, even these kufar, even these kafirs who don't believe in Islam, they must know deep down inside it's the truth because they're doing the work for us. That's how they feel about Richard Landes: Yeah, no, I Michael: people like queers for Palestine, gays for Gaza. Richard Landes: Right. Michael: That's that's how they see things. And you know, I I have this saying, right? Not all infidels are kinfidels, right? There's a lot there are a lot of infidels out there that are willing vimmies, okay? They are not Richard Landes: Right. Michael: our kin. Okay. They and despite the fact that they will be the first to be put to death. Richard Landes: So wait a minute. are you s let's take the media for example. I I work on the I work on the news media, the mainstream news media. And one of the things that strikes me is that over the last 25 years that I've been following it, and following their coverage not just of Israel but of Islam in the West, they, you know, if you if you had a sort of a list of the kinds of things that Hamas wants them to say, and the things they say, the overlap would be huge. And in a sense, they they're behaving like Vimy. They're they're accepting the rule that says that the subject infidel dare not criticize Islam. Michael: Yeah. I mean, listen, I remember maybe it was about like 10 years ago, around like 2015, 2007, 2015, 2016, on the Bill Mare show, they had, Richard Landes: Yeah. Michael: I think, Sam Harris and Ben Affleck. Richard Landes: And Ben Affleck. Michael: And you know, there's the you know, the now famous video clip of Ben Richard Landes: Right. Michael: Affleck getting into hysterics, losing his mind. He's like, You're racist, you're this, you're that. Yeah, that's exact it's what they call useful idiots. And I bet you Ben Affleck doesn't know a damn thing about Islam. Richard Landes: Right, or useful useful infidels. Yeah. Michael: Yeah, yeah, useful infidels. Richard Landes: so yes, I talk about that in my book because what I argued there was that Ben Affleck was playing the traditional role of the Vimy community leader whose job is to make sure that his community does not say things that will anger the Muslim the Muslim overlords. Michael: Right. Richard Landes: But he's doing it before there's even a conquest. Michael: I mean, you know, you have people who, if you bring up the the age of Aisha, you know, Muhammad's favorite wife, by the way, who was six years old when Richard Landes: Right. Michael: he married her and nine years old when sh he had sex with her, right? You bring that stuff up, you bring that Richard Landes: A nice Jewish girl. Michael: stuff up, the first thing somebody does is bring up Epstein, okay? Despite the fact that Epstein's youngest victim was still older than Aisha by about six, seven years. Richard Landes: Right. A and and he's not a prophet. Michael: Right. I mean, everybody despises Epstein, but you know, Muslims think that Muhammad was the the seal of the prophets and the the best thing humanity had to offer. And by the way, Islam Richard Landes: Right. Michael: isn't a contextual religion. So whatever Muhammad did back then, if he did it today, they would be okay with it. If he is the best Richard Landes: No. Michael: that humanity has to offer, if his example is the best that humanity has to offer, then Muhammad could do the same exact stuff he did back in, you know, whatever it was, the the 600s, 700s, they would be okay with it today. If you wanted to marry a nine-year-old, hey, they would be okay with it. Richard Landes: Hm. Yeah. All right. So let me ask you, what is your what work are you doing now? I mean, I my impression is that you have a vocation. Michael: Yeah, so I have my own business that's, you know, that supports me to my day-to-day. Richard Landes: Okay. Michael: but outside of that, I do advocacy. And it is something that I'm trying to transition to doing full-time. obviously, advocacy for Israel and the Jewish people, that's sort of like my overton window. But then I'm part of other organizations such as the Clarity Coalition, which is a coalition Richard Landes: Uh-huh. Michael: of Muslims, ex-Muslims, and non-Muslims who are against political Islam. Dawa, jihadism. Richard Landes: That's Zudi Jasser and Yasmin Muhammad. Right, right. Michael: Zudi Jasser and Yasmeen Mohammed, yes. Yes. I s I actually just interviewed Zudi Jasser a couple of weeks ago, so Richard Landes: Uh-huh. Michael: yeah. Richard Landes: All right. Well, it's send us that interview. We'd be happy to put it up at our site. so So what does Soody Jasser say when you say Islam is is supremacist? Does I see. But Michael: I've never said those exact words to him. you know, w we were talking it was about a certain subject. So, you know, sort of like the Richard Landes: Mm. Michael: the the subject of the video was is reform in Islam? Like, are you able to reform Islam? And so I let him Richard Landes: Okay. Michael: present his arguments. And he made some good arguments, by the way. I'm not gonna say that like nothing like that I disagree with everything he said. In fact, he made a book Richard Landes: Like. Michael: recommendation that I went out and bought. Because if if You can accuse me of being a lot of things, but I do believe I'm very fair. So, you know, if somebody Richard Landes: Which means being open minded. Michael: right. So if, you know, Dr. Jasser makes a book recommendation for me to read, I'm gonna read it. Because at the end of the day, I have to be seen as an honest actor. And I also, Richard Landes: Right. Michael: you know, I I there is one thing that I will say that I don't want to put Muslims in this binary. Where they have to choose between, you know, their religion and a certain level of observ of observance and not having any and not following the religion at all. I don't think that's a fair binary. I don't think it's realistic. You know, most Muslims are gonna fall somewhere along that spectrum. So that's Richard Landes: Right. Michael: you know, that's one thing about me is you know, what I do is I'm not a missionary. I'm not trying to pull Muslims out of Islam. I don't really give a shit what you believe. You know, you can pray to rocks as long as you don't throw at me. But Richard Landes: Right. That's a good line. Michael: You know, for for me it's a matter of just pick and choose the nice parts of your religion, however many parts that is. And I know there are nice parts. I think for a lot of the people that I sort of grew up with, you know, they're they they sort of what their idea of Islam is, is sort of like the life that they grew up. with their family. So they have this sort of like this emotional attachment to like the way they were raised by their family. And I knew a lot of Muslims who were raised, you know, to be kind and to treat others well. And to, you know, they they they look at Christians and Jews as people of the book and they actually like do like like them. You know, they don't have any sort of negative feelings to them. But you know, I would like for Muslims to just be like that. Like I'm not trying to pull them out of their their religion. But the thing is, the Richard Landes: So Michael: more you observe Islam, the the closer you will get to ISIS. Richard Landes: The more you're observant, right, the more you'll Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Richard Landes: come to I said so so what is it that you think I mean, I remember this before nine eleven, somebody named David Cook, who's a professor at Rice University, and ended up writing a book on the subject called Contemporary Muslim Apocalyptic. And he he in the 1990s alerted me to this apocalyptic strain, which is deeply supremacist, genocidal, totally paranoid, conspiracy-minded, and profoundly imperialist. he introduced me to that. And when I talked to Muslims in I remember being on a radio show talking about this, and there were people calling in and saying, you know. I grew up in a Muslim family, I went to a mosque, I never heard any of this. And yet now it's quite strong. And I'm wondering what you attribute that radicalization to. Where where does the supremacist assertion Michael: It comes, Richard Landes: For me Michael: I mean, it's just baked into the cake. You know, the more you read Islam, the more you take it literally, though the way it's, you know, Islam instructs you to take things, you know, very seriously. So the more seriously you take Islam, the closer that you will get to that. my mom's best friend is Muslim. Okay, she's her best, best friend of several, several decades is Muslim. But she grew up ignoring. The unsavory parts of Islam and focused on the good parts of Islam that teaches you to be, you know, a good neighbor, caring, you know, give charity and stuff like that. Muslims, you know, they understand that they cannot live a pragmatic life. You know, a life that that's peaceful and tolerant if they adhere to everything. Because there's literally a line in the Quran that says, you know. Don't take Jews and Christians for friends. Now, some people will say that interpretation means like you shall not form alliances with them. But then there's, Richard Landes: Uh-huh. Michael: you know, lines in the sunnah where it says, anybody who acts like a kafir is a kafir. You know, somebody who doesn't Richard Landes: Yeah. Michael: pray is a kafir. so again, Muslims by default already pick and choose what they want to believe and practice and what they don't. Richard Landes: Yeah, I mean that's true of Jews and Christians too. It's a it's a Michael: Right. Richard Landes: they're all roll your own all all roll your own religions. But Michael: Right. Richard Landes: but the penalty to people who don't maintain a certain level is it seems to me much harsher in Islam than it is in the other religions, any of the other religions. Michael: Mm-hmm. It is. It is. I mean, listen, Richard Landes: So Michael: you can just to sort of highlight Judaism, right? There's that that line in the Mishnah where it says, if the the court condemns somebody, one person in 70 years to death, that it's a bloodthirsty court. Richard Landes: Right. Michael: There's no there's nothing like that in Islam. There's not like you can only you know kill somebody once every five years. No, there's you know, anybody who insults the prophet. Is destined to die. Those who leave Richard Landes: And yet Michael: their religion and talk about it, if they publicize it, they're destined to die. Richard Landes: Right, right. Harby. Michael: Mm-hmm. Yeah, Muharb. Richard Landes: So Michael: You would be called a Muharab. That that's exactly what they would call you. You're a Muharab. So even Richard Landes: A Muharub. Michael: Muharb, that means one who makes war. So somebody, you know, these Muslim apologetics that you find online, and by the way, they're all extreme. Daniel Halkikaju, Muhammad Hijab, Ali Dawah, Muslim lantern, all these people will tell you, yeah, you can leave your you can leave the slam. You just can't talk about it. If you talk about it, yeah, we would put you to death. Yeah. Richard Landes: that's interesting. That's that's also true of i in general of shame honor cultures, that as Michael: Mm-hmm. Richard Landes: long as people don't know, it's okay. But as soon as people know it's over. Michael: Right. As long as you, you know, shut the hell up and don't talk about it, you don't express yourself, right? yeah, Richard Landes: Right. Right. Michael: 'cause that's actually seen as an act of war. It's it's seen as an act of sedition. Richard Landes: So it definitely not a culture of dispute. Michael: No. No. Richard Landes: All right, so so here you are, you're trying to talk to Westerners and wake them up to this threat. What's the response you get? Michael: A lot of false equivalences, even from people, by the way, who are pro-Israel, they sort of make these false equivalences. They'd be like, well, Christianity, but Judaism, but the Bible says Yeah, but let's be realistic. Like, how many Christians and Jews do you see acting like that? You don't. You don't. If the Christian world was as terrible as the Muslim world was as fanatic and bloodthirsty, you wouldn't see. Muslims seeking refuge in Christian countries. Okay? It's Richard Landes: Christian countries, right? Michael: just you you wouldn't see it. If if Christians were killing their apostates for converting Richard Landes: And you and Right. Michael: to Islam, you would never move to a Christian country. You wouldn't be able to make Richard Landes: Right. And the Michael: you wouldn't be able to preach your religion. They preach their religion on the damn streets here. And they'll yell Richard Landes: Right, right. Michael: into the microphone: Islam will enter every house. Imagine if a Jewish person said that. Imagine a Jewish person said, Judaism will enter every house. Richard Landes: Yeah. okay, so I you you remind me of something that has always struck me hard, which is when Muslims flee, let's call it Jihad zones, like in Syria, they don't go to other Muslim countries. They come to the West, Michael: Mm-hmm. Richard Landes: even though they bring with them the dysfunctions that caused their own failed societies. How do you explain that? I mean, I I understand you as you say, the West is much more receptive. the Muslim Brotherhood is much freer in the West than it is in Egypt. much more. Michael: Much more. Much more. Richard Landes: yeah, in fact the Muslim Brotherhood's project for conquering the West was hatched in Switzerland, Michael: Mm-hmm. Richard Landes: not in not in Cairo. And Michael: Cairo, not in you know, Karachi or Riyadh. Nope. Richard Landes: So when the when October seventh happened and it was clear that Israel was gonna go in after Hamas, why didn't either the Muslim or even the the sort of non-Muslim world arrange for the civilians to flee? I mean when you when the war in Ukraine started, there was millions of people left the Ukraine to get out of the way of the war, and even went to countries where they didn't speak the language. And here it's they're surrounded by Arab speakers, same religion, same language, and nobody even suggested that they should be allowed out. Michael: For two reasons. number one, the Palestinians, even if they're gonna be killed in a war zone, they're better off there because they will forever be a political weapon to be used against Israel. So that's number one. second off, the Arab world, and let's just focus on the Arab world and not the broader Muslim world. Richard Landes: Mm-hmm. Michael: the Arab world in particular really has it like Such a distrust of the Palestinians, it's insane. So the Palestinians are a product of a very revolutionary concept. You know, this it's sort of like the same type of revolutionary mindset that people in the IRGC believe. And that is a direct threat to those governments and regimes. So it is very destabilizing. If you accept, like, you know, let's say 500,000 and Gazans into Egypt. Richard Landes: Right. Michael: There's a great chance a lot of them will try to destabilize the country. And on that, I do understand the reluctance to accept Gazan refugees. I do understand that. now that's not me saying that I agree with refusing to take in refugees. I think they should have been taken in. I think that camps should have been built, particularly in the Sinai, where it's very spacious and you could have housed them. But, you know, countries like Saudi Arabia and and Jordan and Egypt, these are countries. that are more or less stable. You know, Egypt is kind of, you know, constantly living on a razor's edge. But it's still it, you know, you it's more stable than, you know, Syria. It's more stable than than Yemen. so these are countries that right, these are countries that sort of Richard Landes: Well that we yeah, Somalia, right? Michael: want to maintain like the thinnest veneer of stability. And they understand that if you you know bring in hundreds of thousands of these people, even if there's only, you know, five to ten thousand, you know, people who have this sort of like revolutionary want to overthrow the regime mindset, that's still a threat. And that threat, by the way, can rile up their native populations because there are you know, these populations, particularly in Egypt, you know, you have millions upon mil tens upon tens of millions of people that hate the regime would absolutely participate in its overthrow. Richard Landes: I see. Well, all right, now you've given us a fairly dark picture. You want to give us some some light at the end of the tunnel? Yeah. Michael: I mean, it's it's it's gonna get uglier in the it's gonna get uglier Richard Landes: Little black humor. Michael: in the West though. That's the thing. It's like I I can't really give you like this positive picture of like what the future holds, at least not in the West. The West is going through this, you know, sort of crisis of public trust where it's you know it's really the horseshoe theory at work. The right is drifting further into its own extreme. The left is drift is drifting further into its own extreme. And this is actually the Richard Landes: And they both meet at the hatred of the United States and Israel. Michael: Right. And you know, this is actually where Islamists or sorry you see, even I use the damn word. This is where, you know, I'll say extremists, right? This is where Richard Landes: Yeah, right. Supremacists. Okay. Michael: extremism thrives. Because what Muslims will tend to do is they'll be like, look at them. They hate the way they're living. Nothing that, you know, nothing their country has given them has solved any of their problems. Islam's the solution. And that's actually Richard Landes: I see. Michael: the literally the the the motto of the Muslim Brotherhood, Islam al Hal. Islam is the solution. So things will continue to get worse. And by the way, they don't need to reach 51% to cause damage. They can cause significant amount of damage, you know, at six, 10%, as we see in the UK, as we Richard Landes: Absolutely not. Right. Right. Right. It it's a Michael: see in Britain, as we see in France and Germany. Like they Richard Landes: In France. Michael: are going to be a problem. The problems follow this community everywhere they go. Unless they live in a country that is. authoritarian like Russia. So like, you know, Russia doesn't have the same problem with its Muslim population that let's say the UK does. Because Russia, very heavy-handed country, will deal with them heavy-handedly. The UK will not. Richard Landes: So, what's your prognosis? Do you see Western countries going under? Michael: I see the UK going under. I do think they're gonna there's gonna be a civil war in the UK. I think that there will be another October seventh around the corner, but I think it's gonna happen in the West. Yeah. Richard Landes: And anything that can be done to prevent it, other than trying to explain to Westerners who don't want to hear it that they've got enemies? Michael: Muslims in Europe are many of them will be deported. Richard Landes: Mm-hmm. Michael: That's probably the only solution to this problem, if I'm being quite honest, is that Muslims in Europe, particularly in the UK, in France, in Germany, it's gonna reach this pivotal moment where it's really deport them or be taken over by them. Richard Landes: Hmm. All right. Well, all right, so your your largest presence is on Instagram Michael: Yes. Richard Landes: and your handle is again Michael: Coptic Kapara. Richard Landes: Coptic Kapara spelled Michael: Yes. Richard Landes: K-O-P-T-I-C K-A-P-A-R-A. Michael: H at the end. H. Richard Landes: All right. All right. Well thank you very much. We'll certainly be following you and anytime you wanna speak more on these issues, you're welcome to join us. Thank you. Michael: Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. Take care. Richard Landes: Okay. Bye. so Michael: I'm still here. Richard Landes: Yeah.