Latest / IMI Podcasts / #31: Portugal's HQA Visa - "Presence-Free" Path to Citizenship in Portugal for €175,000?

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#31: Portugal's HQA Visa - "Presence-Free" Path to Citizenship in Portugal for €175,000? · IMI Podcasts

0:06
SPEAKER_00: Ladies and gentlemen, it's 7 p.m.
0:08
SPEAKER_00: in Dubai, 3 p.m.
0:09
SPEAKER_00: in Lisbon, 11 a.m.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: in St.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: Kids.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to a new episode of the Mobility Standard, the podcast where we dissect current events, trends, and crucial questions related to investment migration.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Christian Nishame, editor of IMI, and in this episode, I had the pleasure of hosting Chris Lennon of Empowered Startups, a company that helps people qualify for residency through entrepreneurship programs.
0:40
SPEAKER_00: Among other programs, Empowered Startups focuses on Portugal's HQA visa, which gives people residency in Portugal in exchange for an all-inclusive investment of 175,000 euros.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: It's a program that I at least have had a hard time grasping completely in the past, and I'm happy to say that Chris was able to satisfactorily answer most of the questions I had about the program.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: Chris and I spoke about how the big entrepreneurship-based programs like Canada's SUV, the American EB2 NIW, and Portugal's HQA compare to each other in terms of how much hands-on involvement is required from the applicant.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: We also spoke about why entrepreneurship-based programs seem to be more politically palatable than their more transactional Golden Visa and CBI peers.
1:35
SPEAKER_00: We talked about what kind of research investors are actually funding with the HQA program and why processing for HQA visas is so much quicker than for Golden Visas.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: And perhaps most importantly, how the physical presence requirements of the program actually work.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: Are they really as flexible as people say?
1:57
SPEAKER_00: All of that and a great deal more in today's episode of the Mobility Standard.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: Before we start, I'd like to tell you that if you haven't already signed up for our pro membership, you really should consider it.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: Simply because it'll help make you more money as an investment migration professional.
2:15
SPEAKER_00: With a pro membership, you'll get your very own profile in IMI where clients can contact you directly.
2:21
SPEAKER_00: You'll have full access to our data center, our private briefings, all our reports, and many other tools and resources that'll help you make more money and become a better investment migration professional.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: With the preambles out of the way, let's get this show on the road.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: How did you come to run empowered startups?
3:15
SPEAKER_00: And then you can tell us a bit more about exactly what empowered startups does.
3:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
3:21
SPEAKER_01: And um I like to think it's a little bit of an interesting story.
3:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm Chris Lennon, president and general counsel at Empowered Startups.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm a lawyer by training, and that's really how I how I came into this.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: So way back when I spent over a little over a decade working primarily with universities and also startups coming out of universities, in um both in-house at some of Canada's top research universities, and and then also as external counsel at a fairly prominent firm in Vancouver.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: And what we did, or what I and my colleagues did, is we worked and did lots of tech transfer work.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: So spinning out technology innovations from the universities and worked directly with their president's office to develop intellectual property policy, research policy, all the types of things that you would think would go on at a university around their patents and software innovations and things like that.
4:22
SPEAKER_01: And then the other side that comes from that is many of those researchers or professors or sometimes students and faculty go on to launch their own startups.
4:32
SPEAKER_01: So I started doing a lot of work with those ventures that were actually, you know, initiated in universities, but then go on to be their own their own things.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: And empowered, or I guess back in the day, should really before sorry, before you before you go on, I noticed you said in-house and out.
4:51
SPEAKER_00: So I take it you're Canadian yourself.
4:54
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah are you are you picking up on the accent there?
4:57
SPEAKER_01: Is that what you're asking?
4:58
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that for me, that's the only way of telling the difference between an American accent and a Canadian.
5:03
SPEAKER_00: It's the OU sounds.
5:06
SPEAKER_00: Out and in-house, you said.
5:09
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
5:09
SPEAKER_01: No, that's great that you picked up on it.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: I am absolutely Canadian.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: Born born and raised in Toronto, and then did my all my schooling and life stuff out on the West Coast in and around Vancouver, BC.
5:21
SPEAKER_00: Right.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: Is is that like the big what's the bigger startup, tech startup city in Canada?
5:27
SPEAKER_00: Is it Vancouver or Toronto?
5:28
SPEAKER_01: We'd argue Vancouver, although I have to give credit to Toronto.
5:32
SPEAKER_01: Toronto has definitely come on in the recent number of years.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: Toronto's a bigger city for sure.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: Right.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: And Toronto is definitely more the head office capital of Canada than Vancouver is.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: But Vancouver for many years was sort of the Silicon Valley of Canada.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: You know, it was it was heavily startup focused and heavily sort of private office and old money kind of businesses here, not head offices like there are in Toronto.
6:01
SPEAKER_00: Right.
6:01
SPEAKER_01: Right.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: All right.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: Now tell me about empowered startups because you're not, you know, most of the people I talk to on this podcast, they're either they might be developers in the uh residence or citizenship by investment market, or they might be advisors or fund managers, et cetera.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: You guys are not, I wouldn't say primarily an investment migration advisory.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: You focus very specifically on entrepreneurship-based immigration.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: So just tell me a bit about the scope of what empowered startups does.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and we do struggle with this definition from time to time because we don't fit clearly, as you say, in the investment migration space.
6:45
SPEAKER_01: Although the clients that we work with primarily are those that are also potential candidates for candidates for the investment migration space.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: But we came into this actually through our own entrepreneurial endeavors.
6:59
SPEAKER_01: So the the founding or pre-founding company of Empowered was developing lots of its own ventures in Canada, and I was their lawyer at the time for many of those things.
7:10
SPEAKER_01: And 2013, the Canadian government launched its first startup visa program.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: And after about a year, they really had a problem.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: They had a great program and nobody was using it.
7:21
SPEAKER_01: And that's when But it was a it was a pilot initially, right?
7:24
SPEAKER_01: Just a pilot limited.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: Yep, absolutely.
7:27
SPEAKER_01: It was a pilot for the first five years, launched in 2013.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: And then 2014, we got involved.
7:34
SPEAKER_01: And actually, they found our founder, Paul Girodo, speaking at an anti-corruption and anti-money laundering conference.
7:41
SPEAKER_01: He sort of had this unique background in having been involved in lots of migratory business activities, but also lots of startup and technological development type businesses.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: And they, long story short, brought us in to try to bring volume to the startup visa program.
8:00
SPEAKER_01: And we were literally when we were designated, so we were officially designated along with other organizations at that time to qualify, vet and qualify founders and founding teams of up to five to come to Canada under the Startup Visa program.
8:16
SPEAKER_01: And one of the interesting things was one of the specific instructions we were given at that time was you know, the government actually said to us, we we're not looking for more designated entities that are just gonna wait for entrepreneurs to come to them.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: We're looking for some that will go actively internationally and recruit and bring volume.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: And over the next four or five years, we did that.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: And in 2018, as a result of that activity, the Startup Visa program became a permanent program.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: And it's now approaching, well, it's just over 10 years old.
8:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's we're talking now thousands of uh applications filed under that program.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: It's uh I mean it's a it's the main, I guess it's the main investment migration program right now in in Canada.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: I mean, since the suspension of QIIP, I mean it's reopened now, but you have to speak French.
9:09
SPEAKER_00: So it's arguably the main route for investors into Canada at the moment, no?
9:15
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: There are there are some provincial programs as well.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: We also work directly, in fact, we work directly with the Alberta government and help them design their current program.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: It's called the Foreign Graduate Entrepreneur Program.
9:28
SPEAKER_01: But but you're right, that's small numbers compared to the startup visa program, which is what we think, due to the fact that it's sort of over 10 years now, it's probably headed for a bit of a revamp, but it's a very quality program and done excellent things for the uh for the country, and we've been actively involved for about nine years now.
9:48
SPEAKER_00: You said it's probably headed for a re it's interesting you should say that because it's not the first time I hear this.
9:55
SPEAKER_00: Slava Appel, who I'm sure you know, he indicated the same thing when I spoke to him on a on a separate podcast that regulators are kind of watching the Canada SUV to, you know, with an eye to ensuring that it's used in the way it's you know the spirit that it f that the application of the program accords with the spirit of the program.
10:19
SPEAKER_00: Is that something you see as well?
10:21
SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: There's sort of two parts to my answer there.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: One one, all immigration programs tend to change after a period of time, and I'd suggest 10 years is a pretty good length of time before we see some changes.
10:34
SPEAKER_01: We're only five years into the permanent program, so you could argue whether or not it's 10 years old or five years old.
10:41
SPEAKER_01: But but yeah, I back in the day, I also had comments made from policy makers at IRCC.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: I can't remember exactly what they said, but it was comments to the effect of when you design a program that makes it hard for sort of these third-party consultants that don't have official roles in programs to penetrate, we know, we know we're on to something.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: And I think there's an understanding or a recognition that over the last couple years, everybody is has jumped into the Startup Visa program.
11:12
SPEAKER_01: I mean, when we got involved, we were one of about, I think, 12 designated incubators, and probably one of only about two that were actively doing anything with the program.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: And I'd have to check the list now, but there's there's over 50, I believe, now, you know, and and and there's a whole, seems like, developing industry of people that are not designated entities, are not immigration lawyers, but play some role in sort of assisting people get in to get into the program.
11:42
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's definitely increased significantly.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and one of the other observations is that in what investors prefer is a passive investment route into Canada.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: Now, there's not one officially available, it's the Canada Startup Visa, which is an active investor program.
12:03
SPEAKER_00: Nonetheless, there have been attempts to sort of make it semi passive.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: And that the my understanding is that the regulators are a bit disconcerted, let's say, by that, and that they might be looking at that.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: Is that what you see as well?
12:18
SPEAKER_01: I think that I think that's likely fair.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: Uh Canada, in contrast to some of the other programs we work on, which allow more, it's not passive, but I would say more board-level kind of roles of people, you know, while they're balancing their competing demands internationally and in the new jurisdiction.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: Canada is the certifisa program is further along the spectrum of requiring active involvement.
12:42
SPEAKER_01: So you can certainly build a team.
12:44
SPEAKER_01: In fact, you can even bring a team of up to five, but yeah, you it's not designed to be a completely hands-off investor that has no involvement in the mind or management of the of the new business.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: And I and I think that there is some of that going on.
13:02
SPEAKER_01: Not not through us, but there there seems to be some attempts to fit those types of individuals into the program.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: So if we're talking about this spectrum from you know fully hands-on to relatively passive investment types, I mean, where would you on that spectrum place in relation to each other the Canada startup visa, the Portugal HQA visa, the EB2 national interest waiver visa?
13:30
SPEAKER_00: We'll talk about all those in detail, but I just want to understand from 30,000 feet, you know, where are they in terms of how hands-on do you have to be?
13:39
SPEAKER_01: So I think they all congregate around the middle, but if if one end of the spectrum is the 22-year-old startup founder that's, you know, just crushing it 80 hours a week, looking for the next financing round, none of the programs are at that end of the spectrum.
13:56
SPEAKER_00: Right.
13:56
SPEAKER_01: Similarly, if the opposite end of the spectrum is, you know, the old Quebec investor program where you literally just write a check for an investment for a period of years and wait, none of them are over there either.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: But congregating around the middle, you got the startup visa program in Canada, which definitely involves act some active management of the startup.
14:18
SPEAKER_01: As I say, you can certainly build a team, and you know, the government would love people, the companies to hire individuals and hire Canadians.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: So that there's nothing wrong with that.
14:29
SPEAKER_01: Then when you move down to the HQA and our EB2 program, they're they're further towards the passive program in terms of what they allow.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: Now it's I mean, relative to relative to Canada startup.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: Relative to Canada startup, yes.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
14:47
SPEAKER_01: And so they very much are designed to allow people to, and the term we use is balance their competing demands internationally while seeding new opportunities.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: And and that's kind of where we fit into both programs, is because we're part of that team that allows them to do that.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: And and heavy on both of those programs is the research component.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: So part of the teams that we're building are academics researchers at tier one research universities working on some sort of novel innovation.
15:18
SPEAKER_00: So I really want to hear more about that, especially when we talk more in detail about the HQA visa.
15:24
SPEAKER_00: But I wanted to ask you a question that's been on my mind about more broadly uh the industry and where it's going and it its perception.
15:33
SPEAKER_00: So I think what one of the problems that this industry has had, at least for as long as I've followed it, which is coming up on a decade, is that whether we're talking about politicians or the media or just the average Joe that's uninitiated and doesn't really know what investment migration is about, these people tend to be kind of skeptical about the transactional exchange of money for visas or citizenships.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: And so that's why you sometimes will see in the in the mainstream media headlines like murky cash for passport schemes and so on.
16:13
SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of people have just a general aversion to the idea that citizenship, which is something that a lot of people imbue with uh sentimental or uh ethereal properties, that that could be for sale, you know, that doesn't sit well immediately with with a lot of people before they start to actually dig into how it works.
16:37
SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that many industry veterans have observed is that a lot of this negative perception might be mitigated if these solutions appeared less transactional and more hands-on, and that to some extent entrepreneurship-based visas might be more palatable than the more commodified residence or citizenship by investment program.
17:06
SPEAKER_00: Do you think there's some truth to that?
17:09
SPEAKER_01: That's that's a big part of kind of the the thesis we've been operating on, really, for the for the last decade.
17:15
SPEAKER_01: Not making our own judgment on whether or not some of those more passive products or or routes are good or bad, but just aware of the criticism and responding to that by saying that the programs we deliver deal with that by ensuring that there's immediate and fairly broad base benefits being delivered to the country where the entrepreneur or the entrepreneurial team is coming, primarily in our case, because there's immediate investment into the university research network and companies are being created longer term.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: Hopefully, jobs are being created.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: And because of that, everything's done in a transparent way.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: These people are incorporating new entities, which they're shareholders of, and they're incorporating corporate bank accounts.
18:06
SPEAKER_01: They're not hiding their identity, it's it's obvious who they are.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: So we hope that that also helps get at some of the criticisms about the murkiness that you said, you know, like who are these individuals?
18:17
SPEAKER_01: Well, you know in our programs, everybody knows exactly who they are.
18:21
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're not we're not helping people hide identities here.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: They're starting new companies, and depending on the program, they're having different levels of involvement, but always involved at at least the managerial level, and usually directors of the new new entity.
18:34
SPEAKER_01: So it's uh it's a very transparent transparent kind of program.
18:38
SPEAKER_01: And in many of them, that helps because uh many of our clients are are headed for citizenship on sort of three to five year trajectory, depending on where they're where they're immigrating to.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: And that's great, you know, that they're actually creating tangible ties to the new new country that they're starting something in.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: So so one of the issues that they struggle with is the murkiness aspect, as you say, but it's I mean, we also know who Golden Visa investors are, right?
19:08
SPEAKER_00: It's not like their identities are are hidden in any way, but I think it's more the I I think it's harder to criticize a program that literally brings young entrepreneurs to a country than let's say an like older people who are kind of past their productive years or past their peak productive years, maybe.
19:30
SPEAKER_00: So so if you look at golden visas, I would say they're probably on average 15-20 years, like the applicants are probably 15-20 years older than entrepreneurs, entrepreneur visa applicants, if if I had to guess, right?
19:44
SPEAKER_00: So they're not past their peak productive years, and it's not it's not seen as equally transactional because they're not just buying something, they're actually you know creating a new product, setting up a new business.
19:59
SPEAKER_00: Now, as to which one of those types of investments actually gives the broadest benefit to the economy, I mean we don't know.
20:06
SPEAKER_00: It it depends.
20:07
SPEAKER_00: But I think that the the nature of the investment and the the degree of involvement personally of the investor, I mean it it seems to be more acceptable somehow to bring in entrepreneurs than to bring in investors.
20:21
SPEAKER_01: No, I I think some some people would certainly make that make that argument.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: We we you know are are happy to be involved on that side of the coin.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: The one thing I'd challenge you on a little bit there is I'm not so sure the age difference is as stark as as you suggest.
20:38
SPEAKER_01: I I agree that we're bringing people who are not you know past their prime, but the majority of our people are in their 40s, sometimes 50s, because primarily we're working with people who are previously successful in other businesses around the world.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: That's kind of the category of individuals that the countries and all of our programs want.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: So we're not not that there's anything wrong with the young entrepreneur, but that's not who we're bringing.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: We're bringing the middle-aged or sometimes older, previously successful, continuing to be successful business people and not just entrepreneurs too.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: Business people of all stripes, you know, but but with success and experience, something that they can bring to the new jurisdiction.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: And this holds true across the startup programs that we discussed in in you know, EB2 and Canada startup and HQA in Portugal.
21:30
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: And so to get at your age comment, I I think it's not age so much as intention.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: So we're we obviously we're not bringing the people that are just gonna go and play golf for the next 10 years.
21:43
SPEAKER_00: Right.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: You know, they actually are starting something, but we're helping them build a team to start something so they don't have to be on the ground 40 hours a week.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: They can still be running their businesses internationally while they're getting things off the ground through their team in the jurisdiction they're working with.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Us.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Right.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: Okay, I want to dig a bit deeper into the HQA visa in particular.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: Some of the common questions that people have, I mean, these will be FAQs for you, I think.
22:13
SPEAKER_00: But first off, what class of visa is it?
22:17
SPEAKER_00: It's a D visa, right?
22:18
SPEAKER_00: Is it D3 or that's correct?
22:20
SPEAKER_00: That's correct.
22:21
SPEAKER_00: It's a D3 visa, yeah.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: Okay, and so the the HQA, highly qualified activity, is that is that empowered startups brand name for the D3, or because I I I think I've seen the cards and they also say highly qualified activity in Portuguese, right?
22:39
SPEAKER_00: What's the official name of this visa?
22:41
SPEAKER_01: So the official well, the the visa fits into the legislation without an official name.
22:46
SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a D3 visa.
22:48
SPEAKER_01: It's amongst a category of visas that refer to a number of different, call them without sort of heading, highly qualified activity of sorts.
23:00
SPEAKER_01: But the visa program that we're running, yes, it's a term we've coined, the HQA visa program.
23:06
SPEAKER_01: We actually have a trademark for it in Portugal as well.
23:09
SPEAKER_01: So it's a it's a unique program that we've put together with existing legislation.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: So it fits into the existing legislation, but you're not going to open up the edge the immigration legislation in Portugal and find the heading that says HQA visa program.
23:24
SPEAKER_01: Right.
23:24
SPEAKER_00: You know, but but there is it'll say D3, but then that's right.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: But D but D3 is broader in scope than what you guys are doing, right?
23:32
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
23:32
SPEAKER_01: So there's uh there's other ways to get into the D3 route, but it's it's you know, that's not broadly what we do.
23:40
SPEAKER_01: We do something very specific that has resonated with the Portuguese government and has been explicitly endorsed by the Portuguese government.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: We've had signing ceremonies where the Minister of Territorial Cohesion went on record publicly in video and said, empowered startups, you are the partner for us.
23:58
SPEAKER_01: That's a quote.
23:59
SPEAKER_01: So but they did that without creating a new category of visa.
24:04
SPEAKER_01: It's just recog recognizing the program we've put together for an existing broader category that people can fit into.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so if I understand correctly, you've you've so in the D3 category, I mean, there are many ways to qualify for a D3 visa, but what you've been able to do is kind of make a standardized type of product that is that gives the applicant a certain degree of predictability, right?
24:33
SPEAKER_00: So that if you fit X, Y, Z requirements, if you meet these criteria, then you'll qualify, right?
24:41
SPEAKER_00: So you've taken something that that might have been heterogeneous and turned it into something more homogeneous, right?
24:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the the broader categories of the same type of visa would sort of more traditionally be for like visiting professors and things of that nature, you know, academics.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: And you know, that's great.
25:02
SPEAKER_01: They can still they can still use other subsets of the category.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: But what we've put together is a program where really we play two roles here.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: We're both the matchmaker for our clients, but we're also kind of the executive recruiter for the Portuguese government, finding the you know, the successful business people that they'd like to see come to Portugal to stimulate the research network at universities and build new ventures.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: So this leads to my next question, which is what is the purpose of the HQA visa from the perspective of Portugal, from their national interest?
25:44
SPEAKER_01: So this is my opinion based on conversations I've had, but I think it is they see it as a way to help bring investment to university research to stimulate.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: It's really the same premise as what the Canada Startup Visa program was started on, you know, over 10 years ago.
26:04
SPEAKER_01: Stimulate investment in research and thereby create new companies and new startups, not just the ones that are coming, but just by sort of stimulating the whole ecosystem of activity, bringing successful business people with skills and expertise that it can interact with the researchers and and those students.
26:25
SPEAKER_01: We're not bringing the students, but there's students there that are actively interested in working in industry when they graduate, you know, and this is helping stimulate that activity.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: And for Portugal, I think a big part of it is they see it as an opportunity for us to bring these people and the this activity to regions primarily in the interior.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: So not just in Lisbon and Porto, but in other areas where there's great research going on, but there might be a lack of actual business activity around those those universities, you know, and and more traditionally, people graduate and then leave and go to the big cities.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: Well, they're they're hopeful that this is going to help ground some more companies long term in those regions and build industry that will allow graduates to stay and build families there.
27:17
SPEAKER_00: So you talk about great research taking place in the interior and the Portuguese government wanting to support and encourage that.
27:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm wondering if you could cite a recent example of maybe a client of yours or a case that you know about, just to give people an idea of what an example of a of an HQA, successful HQA visa case might look like.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: What type of research are we talking about?
27:44
SPEAKER_00: What type of business incubation are we talking about?
27:47
SPEAKER_01: So let me start by saying it.
27:56
SPEAKER_01: You know, are going to be doing.
27:59
SPEAKER_01: The big part of our role is to find these people with the skills that we think can be matched up with research that we know is is underway in the various labs that we work with and kind of play like the matchmaker.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: So what we need is people, we would do work with some people with domain expertise and you know, fintech or blockchain or whatever.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: There's some of those for sure.
28:20
SPEAKER_01: But 90% of the people we work with are just business experts, you know, and they've got business experience.
28:26
SPEAKER_01: And then we look at their credentials and their past business involvement or the current businesses they're running and figure out, figure out how that can translate into something that we know, you know, faculty at a university and some of their postdocs and their master's students are are working on that might result in a prototype that could be spun out and commercialized.
28:51
SPEAKER_01: But it it's quite quite diverse.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: We've geez, well, I mentioned we've got a number of fintech investigations going on.
28:58
SPEAKER_01: We've got some ex Silicone Valley bank individual working on a blockchain venture that's gaining some traction and and all things in between.
29:10
SPEAKER_01: But it's important to stress that the focus when we bring these people is not around the actual business itself.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: It's really on us bringing those with the expertise that can lend something to the research to get something started, and the there's the prospect that something might might result of that.
29:30
SPEAKER_01: But there's no performance requirements.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: The requirement is that the investment's made in research and that this activity is stimulated at the university and a new company is incorporated, and and the the expert is is or the expert business person is is leading that new company.
29:47
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so so what does the investor or the the applicant in this case?
29:51
SPEAKER_00: What does the applicant actually do?
29:52
SPEAKER_00: You do the research, right?
29:54
SPEAKER_01: Or you or you you you identify the research that's already being conducted at specific universities, and then we identify the researchers that are that are that have expertise or you know working in an area that we see could be furthered with the with the expertise and investment of our of our clients.
30:13
SPEAKER_01: We don't do the research, we we put it together.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: What does what does our client do?
30:18
SPEAKER_00: Depends on their background and uh let's say it's let's let's say the client has just a general business background and not domain-specific background.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: And and he what does he bring to the table?
30:30
SPEAKER_00: Investment, right?
30:32
SPEAKER_01: He brings investment and kind of like board level experience.
30:35
SPEAKER_01: So right, so so they will have some interaction with the researchers on a on a routine basis, kind of like a director, you know, sitting around a board, and then all and and but also be providing insight into the potential commercialization uh applications of the research being worked on, you know, like that they're seen, they in conjunction with us are seen as the business experts to help these researchers get the prototype out of the lab, figure out who the customers are gonna be, and are they starting are they starting corporations?
31:09
SPEAKER_00: Yes, right.
31:10
SPEAKER_01: Okay, they're always starting a new company right away.
31:14
SPEAKER_01: Typically, the only activity for that company in the first couple of years is really pursuing the research activity, but the results of whatever comes out of the lab will be owned by that new company.
31:25
SPEAKER_01: So that that's the idea that you know, if if something works and is promising, then the entrepreneur or the business person will have the opportunity to take it where they want.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: Right.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: They don't have to.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: They the the idea is just like when Canada started its startup visa program, they literally said, We know, you know, one only one out of 10 of these companies are probably gonna be around long term.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: But if you bring the right people, if they fail at something or lose interest in something, they're just gonna start something else.
31:54
SPEAKER_01: And that's that's what we want for our country.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: We want people that are just gonna start other things.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: Go-getters.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: So the the way that you guys market uh the HKABs uh is that you say, I mean, the headline number is it's got a cost of 175, right?
32:13
SPEAKER_00: That's an investment.
32:14
SPEAKER_00: But so obviously there's no Portuguese immigration law that mandates this particular amount be invested be invested.
32:23
SPEAKER_00: It's more that this number is based on what you guys have seen again and again working in practice.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: But I wonder if you can help us understand a bit better, you know, how the HQA process works, including who pays and who gets paid what amounts at each stage.
32:40
SPEAKER_00: Can you help us break down that 175k number a little bit?
32:45
SPEAKER_01: So it's best to describe it as a package price, and certainly people can invest more.
32:49
SPEAKER_01: And once they've got their company, we've we've had people that created companies through the HQA program and start all kinds of other activity through through that company, because you know you can do anything you want through a new company, right?
33:01
SPEAKER_01: Provided it's legal.
33:03
SPEAKER_01: But the 175 is sort of I I would call it really our our rack rate, I guess, is a way to put together the whole program.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: So that is that is paid to us to both facilitate the investment.
33:15
SPEAKER_01: So when people sign on with us, they'll see a breakdown of the actual dollar figure that will go to the university, usually in a couple of tranches in through a research agreement that's actually signed three ways between us and the university.
33:27
SPEAKER_01: Or sorry, us, the client, and the university.
33:30
SPEAKER_01: But it also covers the whole experience to get them their first residence permit, their first renewal of their that residence permit, which will take them through to the five-year period that allows them to apply for citizenship or okay.
33:45
SPEAKER_00: So so hang on.
33:46
SPEAKER_00: So your services are included in that price.
33:50
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
33:51
SPEAKER_01: Our services and and immigration legal services that we contract out for for the primary applicant, absolutely.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: And and and also we provide three years of what we call incubation support, which is basically on-the-ground assistance, helping them manage the operation of this this company.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: Not necessarily growing it, but kind of advising and mentoring them, interacting with the lawyers and accountants that they need to make sure the company's properly maintained, bank accounts are open, and that it's a going concern for the full three years they're with us and and doesn't become delinquent or default or anything like that.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: Right.
34:29
SPEAKER_00: It's very interesting to me that you know, quite often we see this in this business that there is legislation in many countries that would allow a program to exist.
34:41
SPEAKER_00: And all it takes is for some private sector actor to identify this possibility and set up a structured program around it, like you guys have done with HQA.
34:54
SPEAKER_00: I've I've seen other people do it with the Germany blue card, for example.
35:00
SPEAKER_00: Do you think that there are other like latent, let's say, uncharted, or do you think that across the world right now that there are there are several other pieces of legislation that would allow for a product like this to exist in in an attractive country?
35:19
SPEAKER_00: And are you actively looking at that?
35:21
SPEAKER_01: We we are always actively looking at that.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: We don't want to spread ourselves too thin, but but I the answer is definitely yes in one of those jurisdictions where we've identified that is the United States.
35:32
SPEAKER_01: So our our EB2 program is again, I mean, it's a it's an existing route to get to the United States, but we are packing packaging it up in a way that does it a little bit differently, that we think adds something to the mix, which makes the applications that our clients will be providing as you know, finding their way to the top of the pile, so to speak, because they're not just the traditional EB2 NIW application, which is, you know, for many cases, just write a business plan and promise you're gonna do this and hope they approve you to come to the to the United States.
36:09
SPEAKER_01: You know, we we again have got this thing where we're working with tier one research universities, in this case in the United States.
36:16
SPEAKER_01: So now you've got the research university actually endorsing the project that's being pursued and the research that's being pursued and the business the resulting business that could come out of that project.
36:28
SPEAKER_00: We know that the SEF, uh the the borders and what's it called in English, the borders and immigration.
36:34
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's now it's now AMA.
36:36
SPEAKER_01: Now it's IMA.
36:36
SPEAKER_00: Now it's IMA, yeah.
36:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:38
SPEAKER_00: Right?
36:39
SPEAKER_00: And so we know that they were not, I mean, Ceph was not particularly productive, and I'm hearing now that processing for golden visas practically stopped under IMA.
36:49
SPEAKER_00: You know, Ceph at one point last year had 8,000 golden visa applications in the backlog, and they were processing only a few hundred a month.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: So we were talking that many, many years of processing before they could handle that backlog.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: IMA has promised that that will change, they will hire more people, they will, you know, improve their modus operandi, etc.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: Let's see.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: But we also know that it wasn't just golden visas that were affected by this slow processing, extremely drawn-out processing.
37:21
SPEAKER_00: Other categories were affected as well.
37:24
SPEAKER_00: But you guys have been saying that this is not the case for the HQA visa.
37:31
SPEAKER_00: Why why is I mean, is the HQA visa getting special treatment somehow?
37:36
SPEAKER_00: Like, why is processing faster for this particular category?
37:40
SPEAKER_01: So so the category itself that we utilize does require faster processing.
37:47
SPEAKER_01: And it's you know, as there's actually a great video, uh FAQ video on our website from one of the immigration lawyers that we work with routinely in Portugal answering this question.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: But there's an obligation on Ceph to process the visa once it's received by them, of course, or sorry, the residence permit application, once it's received by them in 60 days rather than a longer period of time.
38:10
SPEAKER_01: Now, everybody, I think, has experienced some delays.
38:13
SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I can't say there haven't been some bureaucratic hiccups, but nothing in our case, like what you're what we've seen experienced in the Golden Visa case.
38:24
SPEAKER_01: Before Christmas, we had one residence permit processed in 13 days.
38:30
SPEAKER_01: And and and they're not always all processed in necessarily the the 60 days, but we don't have people waiting years that that just does that just doesn't happen.
38:41
SPEAKER_01: Why is that happening?
38:42
SPEAKER_01: I so in addition to the time requirements in the in the legislation on Ceph, we believe there's some sort of prioritization.
38:51
SPEAKER_01: There's nothing I can point to in a manual, operating manual that says that, but that is a very experience.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:58
SPEAKER_01: And and and we've had conversations with Ceph, you know, before it reorganized because we wanted them to know exactly what it was that we were doing.
39:06
SPEAKER_01: And that's how we ended up getting government support and endorsement, is not by trying to fit people into an existing program and just kind of keep our heads down.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: We actually made big efforts to go and tell them exactly what we're doing and what the benefits are.
39:24
SPEAKER_01: And and quite frankly, we we won them over and we secured the the endorsement.
39:28
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think that does help when processing attendees are looking at files.
39:35
SPEAKER_01: But I, you know, I I can't show you where it says that anywhere, but it seems to be playing out.
39:42
SPEAKER_00: Also, one of the things we should talk about is the physical presence requirement, because it's it's not black and white, right?
39:50
SPEAKER_00: Uh when it came to golden visas, one of the big selling points of golden visas was that it it exempted investors from the physical presence requirements that pertain to most other categories of immigration.
40:04
SPEAKER_00: But my understanding is that these requirements can also be quite light for the HQA visa.
40:11
SPEAKER_00: What what I've sort of my impression is that it goes something like this.
40:16
SPEAKER_00: Look, if we understand that the people who are investing in these startups in Portugal funding research, they are international business people who have interests elsewhere.
40:28
SPEAKER_00: I think the phrase you used, the canned phrase that you used was balance their competing international interests.
40:37
SPEAKER_01: Our canned phrase is balancing their competing demands.
40:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, basically of their existing business interests overseas while you know working on and getting off the ground what they're doing in Portugal.
40:47
SPEAKER_00: So basically, if you have a good justification for being away from Portugal, you can be away from Portugal.
40:53
SPEAKER_00: Is that it?
40:54
SPEAKER_01: That that that's absolutely correct.
40:56
SPEAKER_01: So what you've summarized is the way that we kind of describe it.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: The exemption itself that allows this is and again, there's an FAQ video of this from our immigration lawyer answering the question directly that I would point people to.
41:10
SPEAKER_01: But it's essentially if you have reason to be outside of the country for more than the allowed period for reasons that include business reasons, then the exemption applies.
41:23
SPEAKER_00: And so by the very name of the what is sorry, what is the allowed period, 183 days or what it's it's six months.
41:31
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm gonna I'm gonna misstate it.
41:33
SPEAKER_01: Six months in in a year or eight or eight can eight non-consecutive months or something like that over a two-year period.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: Uh it's it's it's it's a standard period, and and there is no different sort of f first, you know, first pass rule, I guess, for the HQA program, but what there is is this exact this exemption.
41:53
SPEAKER_01: And by the very nature of the people we're bringing to Portugal, I'd be highly surprised if not everybody would fit in that exemption because they all have international business interests and justifications to be outside the country to attend to those to those business justifications.
42:10
SPEAKER_00: Now, how do you how do you justify this in practice?
42:13
SPEAKER_00: Do you I mean, I remember when I was in school, if I wanted to be away from school, I needed some kind of doctor's note or a note from my parents or something like that.
42:24
SPEAKER_00: Like, how does this what kind of note do you have to bring to the Portuguese authorities to justify your absence for an HQA visa?
42:31
SPEAKER_01: Well, you it's it's not a proactive justification.
42:34
SPEAKER_01: So you just rely on the exemption and and if ever asked, and it quite frankly doesn't really happen, you just there'd be a process to explain, you know, what you were working on.
42:46
SPEAKER_01: And we've got research institution testing to the fact that they're working on you know particular research innovation.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: One of your responsibilities is board-level activity, developing sales channels internationally, plus you've got whatever ownership interests or executive level roles in your international businesses that are quite easy to show that you need to be in Hong Kong or you need to be in Singapore or Dubai or wherever wherever it is, and you're working with okay.
43:18
SPEAKER_00: But you so let's say you need to be in Hong Kong or Singapore or Dubai, but it's it's unrelated to your business in Portugal.
43:25
SPEAKER_00: Does that also count?
43:26
SPEAKER_00: That's that's right.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's a broad-based justification of of business activity.
43:32
SPEAKER_01: It's not it's not tied to your HQA visa business activity necessarily.
43:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:36
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
43:37
SPEAKER_00: So then, I mean, if we can speak plainly, that means in practice that most people who apply for HQA visa don't need to be in Portugal most of the time.
43:46
SPEAKER_01: That's that's right, yeah.
43:47
SPEAKER_01: And and that's grounded in the in the concept that they have a at least a small team, a research team, plus us and perhaps others working on stuff in Portugal.
43:58
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's it's not again, it's not a program that requires our clients to be in a you know, we we work building, you know, 40 hours a week.
44:08
SPEAKER_01: The idea is that they're working on more high-level stuff across all their businesses, and that's going to benefit Portugal at a time.
44:14
SPEAKER_01: You know, that's that's the concept.
44:16
SPEAKER_01: These are the types of people Portugal wants, you know, through our program, is the people that bring the significant executive level experience that can be working on all kinds of things.
44:28
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a sort of give a job give the job to the busy busy man, you know.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: That's when things get done.
44:33
SPEAKER_01: That's those are the people that accomplish things.
44:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's what my father always told me.
44:37
SPEAKER_00: So in when it comes to the naturalization stage, then at the five-year mark, then you you might say, okay, even I the physical presence requirements in practice could be as light as those for the Golden Visa, then.
44:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I think it's quite possible.
44:57
SPEAKER_01: Now, many of our clients have plans to spend more time than that in Portugal, you know, but but that's up to them for sure.
45:05
SPEAKER_01: And and to get when it gets to the nationalization stage that you just said, I think we've both seen it, it's actually just gotten a lot easier because time waiting in the queue for the processing counts.
45:17
SPEAKER_01: That's probably going to benefit the Golden Visa people much more than us because our guys don't wait and we're near as well.
45:22
SPEAKER_00: So sorry, sorry, I just I should specify there that this we're still waiting for the the president to promulgate, yeah.
45:30
SPEAKER_00: Promulgate.
45:31
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
45:32
SPEAKER_00: So I mean it's the the lawyers I speak to seem pretty confident about it.
45:37
SPEAKER_00: But if there's one thing I've learned in this year of uh ups and downs in Portugal, it's that yeah, don't count your chickens until they've hatched, so to speak.
45:48
SPEAKER_01: Fair enough.
45:49
SPEAKER_01: But but the answer at the night naturalization stage is it mean the requirement is is five years of legal residency.
45:56
SPEAKER_00: Legal residency.
45:57
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
45:58
SPEAKER_01: And and you have that through our HQA visa program, you know, provided you get the first residence permit and the renewal that's required.
46:06
SPEAKER_01: And and we facilitate both of those junctures.
46:14
SPEAKER_00: That's it for today, folks.
46:16
SPEAKER_00: And hey, if you like this podcast and think it can be of value to someone else, tell your friends about us.
46:23
SPEAKER_00: We'll be back soon with a new episode of the Mobility Standard.
46:27
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.