Latest / Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast / BPS 338: Directing Hollywood Blockbusters with Legendary Director John Badham

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BPS 338: Directing Hollywood Blockbusters with Legendary Director John Badham · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

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You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast,
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Episode number three point thirty eight. Love All, Trust a Few,
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Do Wrong to none. William Shakespeare broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in
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Hollywood when we really should be working on that next draft. It's the Bulletproof
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Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how
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to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome,
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Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble
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host Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage.
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Now, unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on the
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kind of project you are and the goals of the project you are. Actually
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break it down by three categories micro budget, indie film, market and studio
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film. There's no reason to get coverage from a reader that's used to reading
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we wanted to focus on that. At Bulletproof Script Coverage, our readers have
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So if you need your screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers, head
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on over to covermiscreenplay dot Com. Well today, guys, you are in
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for a treat. I have on the show today legendary film director John Badham.
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John has made decade defining features like Saturday Night Fever and eighties blockbusters like
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Wargames, Short Circuit and Stakeout, and not to mention nineties hits like Bird
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on a Wire with Mel Gibson, The Hard Way, and Point of No
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Return, just to name a few. John is also the author of two
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amazing books on directing called John Badham on Directing and I'll Be in My Trailer
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The Creative Wars between Directors and Actors. And he's also a tenured film professor
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at Chapman University here in Los Angeles. John is a wealth of knowledge and
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experience when it comes to directing, and he's been doing it for close to
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fifty years. I know that sounds like a lot John, I'm sorry,
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but it's almost five decades of directing and working with actors and telling stories and
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working at the highest levels of Hollywood, and I was just such a thrill
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to sit down and pick John's brain in this episode. So if you guys
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are interested in directing, this episode is just plum full of knowledge bombs about
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directing, about storytelling, about working with actors, all sorts of amazing tips.
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I learned a lot, and I really want to thank John again to
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take time out of his busy schedule to jump on this episode and talk to
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the tribe. So, without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with
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John Badham. I like to welcome to the show, the legendary John Batham.
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How you doing, sir, Thank you so much for doing the show.
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Oh, this is great fun to be here. I'm glad to talk
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to you. You are you basically were my youth. I grew up in
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the eighties and the nineties watching your movies and it is an absolute thrill to
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have you on the show. Well, thank you. I'm having fun being
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here, all right. So, first off, how did you get started
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in the film business. I actually was a theater major at Yale, and
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I was in the Yale Drama School also, so I got interested in film
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and sort of thought foolishly that I could just show up in California and start
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to get involved in it, you know, I mean I had a master's
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degree in directing. It was in theater when people would say, well,
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who would you like to do? Say I want to direct? Oh great,
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what have you directed? Well? Place, place, Get out of
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here. So what are that? No matter what decades you were you were
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born in there's always naive day the trade. And and so I, you
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know, I hung in there, kept looking for a job, and finally
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landed something in the mail room at Universal and and you know, by then
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I thought this is a big deal. Actually got a job delivering mail on
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the lot. Of course those she used to be on the lot absolutely.
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And I walk into the mail room and there's twelve guys there, four of
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them with master's degrees, including me at eight with bachelor's degrees, and and
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in the hot California summer sun, were stepping mail up and down the hill.
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So but but the idea was that you would kind of find your way
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out of there. You'd find a department on the lot that wanted to train
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some people. And it was a busy, busy time at Universal where they
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had twenty four hours of television plus all of their movies. So the lot
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was just rocking, and opportunities were, you know, popping up right and
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left. I eventually found a home in the casting office as a trainee casting
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director, and there's that's where I started to work with the with real directors
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and real producers and and who you know, listen to me when I started
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talking about wanting to direct, so and you got into television firstman, So
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I got into television first because I was working with it with a great television
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producer, William Sackheim, who let me start directing small things like literally inserts
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close up on the cigar in the ashtray, you know, close up on
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the telephone being dialed, but to go from there into actually having real people
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in the shot and then whole scenes. And finally, when we started a
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series called The Senator with Hal Holbrook, he and and his other producer David
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Levinson, said yes, you can direct number seven of this series, which
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was just great. I mean, we know, what an opportunity. Wow,
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how many and how many years were you hustling to get to that opportunity,
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so that I think that's about six years. I think five or six
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years before I got to that place, and I thought, oh my god,
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it's so late. Oh I'm just going to be ancient. But you
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know, thank goodness, it worked out all right. And then that got
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me another another film which which actually won me an Emmy nomination, another episode
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of the same show, and and and that that little stamp of approval,
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that Emmy nomination, that it kept me busy for years and years. Yeah,
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you were doing a lot of what they used to call tell TV movies
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or movies of the week. I segued into ten TV movies, which were
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just all over the place. There had to be half a dozen every week.
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Oh they were every week, were producing them, and so they were
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like little movies and and be shot in say fifteen days. That was like
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great fifteen days because by comparison, the hour shows were being shot in six
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days, right, uh, and these were only like thirty minutes longer.
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So you had it was it was you were you were being spoiled. So
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oh my god, this is brat and you got to do, you know,
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more interesting stuff and some some action things, and and and people.
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You know, it might take you seriously when you start looking for a movie
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as opposed to having just done our television nice No, So how did you
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get involved with Saturday Night Fever? I had gotten to do a movie with
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Richard Pryor and James Earl Jones and Billy D Williams about the history of Negro
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baseball with the unlikely an unwieldy title of the Bingo Long Traveling All Stars and
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Motor Kings's okay, But it was a comedy and uh and was great fun
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that we shot uh in ballparks all over Georgia and uh and it had a
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lot of music and and and dancing in it. It was a co production
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with Motown and Universal. Uh and that actually led to led It led to
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me ginning up with with Motown to buy the rights to the Broadway musical The
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Whiz and for for Universal and and for Motown, we'll be right back after
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a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. And so
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I was working on that with my with my then partner Rob Cohen, when
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when Universal and Motown decided that for little twelve year old Dorothy we should have
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the noted twelve year old Diana Ross Right play the part. And I said,
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guys, I mean, this is a great opportunity. She's a fabulous
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actress, singer, dancer, I mean, what name it. But she's
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you know, whatever age she is, I don't know, you know,
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late twenties, early thirties, probably late twenties. And and and Dorothy you
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know, is literally INDI l Frank Boum books is six years old, which
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explains why there's cowardly lyons and ten men and strong uh you know, scarecrows,
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all kind of the imagination of a child. So wouldn't it be nice
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if we could find somebody that was really young that could play this. And
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I'm sure nobody's ever going to have heard of her because we're going to discover
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well that got into a big thing. And finally, finally we parted ways
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on that. I said, well, you guys understand this because I don't
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know what to say to her on the speege. How do you in direct
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with Dorothy who's thirty. This scares the but Jesus out of me. I
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mean, you've got a vision that that doesn't match. Well, it's happened
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that the Robert Stigwood Organization had we're producing Greece and another musical with the Beg's
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was going to be called Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. I've heard of
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the album, and and you've heard of the album and and and they flew
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me to New York and and and wanted me to talk with him about doing
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Sergeant Pepper, which I there was no greater fan of that album than me.
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But the but the script that they wanted to do, I just didn't
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get it. I was like, what it? It just didn't quite didn't
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quite gel in my mind. And and I, as politely as I could,
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you know, refused, you know, and said thank you very much,
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but I I just I don't get it. And but two weeks later,
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uh, the the then director of what was called Tribal Rights of the
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news, Saturday Night doesn't have the seam ring to it, does it?
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Not quite? But if we look at the New York magazine article that it
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was based on, that was the title, and nobody had come up with
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anything better except for calling it Saturday Night. And that was immediately confused with
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Saturday Night Live. So they said, well, we'll just put a pin
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in it and deal with this later. So anyway, the director of that
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film had a disagreement with Robert Stigwood, who was not a human being to
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ever disagree with because he was a tough old Australian. He wasn't that old
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either, But to me at the time, I think, oh my god,
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this guy's old. He might be forty years old. I wish I
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werefore he So suddenly I'm like the next guy to be called on the list.
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And I read this script and I had one hundred and two fever with
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from the flu in la at the time, and in the one hour that
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it took me to read the script, I was cured. It was like
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Jesus came and laid his hand on me and said, your cured. Your
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fever is gone. Your fever is gone because you've read this great script and
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it broke your fever. That's great. I'll tell you it was fabulous.
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And that was a Monday morning. By by Thursday morning, I was standing
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in New York starting to interview actors and talked to my new crew and told
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that I had two weeks before we start shooting. This is probably where having
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done all those TV movies of the Week, and everything paid off because unlike
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any normal human being, I didn't fall down in panic and have a heart
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attack because you were used to it. Yeah, I go, okay,
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two weeks, what's the catch? Uh So, Now, as far as
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the casting of Travolta, of John Travolta was, he he was just the
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guy on Welcome Back Conner at that time. He hadn't done Grease yet,
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right, that's right. And he had been already signed to do Grease because
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from the Welcome Back Cotter and from a TV movie called The Boy in the
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Plastic Bubble God. I remember that movie to you, and if I remember
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properly, I think he was in the Broadway Company of Greece. So so
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he had he had that experience. So the Stigwood organization signed John to three
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a three picture deal, got it, and Greece was to be the big
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one one to be found. And then somebody came up with this New York
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magazine article and said, how about this, that we could do this while
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we're waiting to start Greece because they had to wait for Olivia Newton. John
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had a very tough concert schedule at the time, and she said, well,
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I've got available from May to September or something like that. So they
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said, okay, between January and May, when we get Olivia Newton John,
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this is where we'll plug in this little movie called called Tribal Rights of
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the New Saturday Night. It was very much almost like an indie movie,
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and you did have a budget, but the way it was shot, I
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remember it so vividly, was very kind of in the streets and kind of
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gritty. And it was not a polished Hollywood movie by any stretch. No,
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And and it was part of the point was to make it as gritty
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as we could. I mean, never having been in Brooklyn in my life,
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I said, well, what if I were an English documentarian coming here,
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I would just you know, open my eyes and shoot everything that looks
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good and and and one of the appeals of the magazine article was the kind
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of gritty realism of this disco and the people and that that were in it.
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During the time I was prepping the very brief time, every every night
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I would go to some different disco in the middle of the night. There
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were yuppy discos, there were gay discos, there were lesbian discos there,
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you know, any any kind of preference you could think of, there was
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a disco for it. And and I quickly realized that that this little kind
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of hole in the wall disco in Brooklyn was very special. It was just
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you know, kind of lower middle class kids who were coming there, and
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you didn't really see any adults, and it was just the neighborhood. It
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was the neighborhood disco. And I remember, I remember those guys grow because
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I grew up in New York and I remember that time. And I remember,
18:30
you know, cousins of mine. You know that that couldn't rupt two
18:33
cents together. But when they got their clothes for not you know, Saturday
18:37
night, you know, they were peacocky all over the place. Oh yeah,
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and and and so so it was clear that that we didn't want to
18:48
go and glitz this up right, that it was not the kind of musical
18:53
that that say, Greece was certainly going to be, which was much on
18:59
a different, much more fun, romantic kind of scale. Sure, and
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and this should have a real grittiness to it. And the script itself,
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you know, had more uh profane language and racism and sexism, and you
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know, really reflected the culture of those neighborhoods. Uh, which which I
19:27
would have proven to me every day because I would be talking to people on
19:33
the street and extras and learn, you know, learning about the culture as
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we were going and finding out that, if anything, are our depiction of
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it was a bit mild. Wow. Now, now, how was it?
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You know, obviously when you guys were directing it, Yeah, I
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was. I remember we were talking off air about your assistant director, Alan
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Wertheim, who was a good friend of mine. We'll be right back after
20:00
a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. He told
20:07
me a story that I think it was you or someone handed him the soundtrack
20:11
to the movie and he took it home and he listened to it and he's
20:15
like, this is never going to go anywhere. And his wife was the
20:19
one that told him, you're an idiot. And then obviously it became this
20:25
phenomenon. How what was it like being in the center of that storm?
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I mean, because you had directed literally a phenomenon. I mean, you
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couldn't go anywhere in the world without hearing that music and seeing those images that
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you shot. Yes, I mean the reaction to the soundtrack. Alan's experience
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wasn't you know it wasn't unusual. They gave me a you know, a
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little tape cassette with the beg's demos on it, which is probably what I
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gave to Alan, right, and and they were there were rough demos.
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And I think Paramount had listened to it and said, well, this is
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not even real disco, right, And and I and I think others,
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you know, we were dubious about it. But Robert Stigwood was a real
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champion. And he said, five songs on this cassette, three of them
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are number one hits at least, which I thought, Wow, that's pretty
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that's pretty arrogant. You know, how do you know what's going to be
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a number one hit? Right? Uh? He was wrong, of course.
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There were four number one hits someday and I don't know what happened to
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the fifth one, but it was probably number two. It was probably number
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two. That's that's right now. When you I mean but as a director,
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I mean, we all as directors hope to be involved with the project
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that gets this kind of attention. What was it like getting the spotlight thrown
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on you? I'm assuming some opportunities opened up after the movie. Yes,
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of course, the first the Hollywood. First reaction was to poop hoood,
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of course, because they had just they were just totally shocked by all of
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the negative parts of it, you know, especially the language and the sexism.
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And I actually got fired from a movie the day after we ran at
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the big Hollywood screening. Picture got put in turnaround seven point thirty in the
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morning, I'm going to New York to the New York opening, and I
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get a phone call, you know, telling me that the show I was
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working on is now in turnaround because the head of the studio saw the movie
22:52
last night and doesn't want anything to do with the director. Who would you
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know, produce that till the box off as comes in. And yeah,
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the box office came, but they never changed their mind. Yeah, that
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movie eventually got made, but not not with me. Sure, so yes,
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it was crazy. The opening night in Los Angeles, as I was
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coming back from New York, I drove by the Village Theater in Westwood just
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to you know, take a look see what the marquee looked like. And
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I see a line at the box office. This is about ten thirty at
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night that our plane got in and and I drive around the block and the
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line keeps going and going and going, goes all the way around the block
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of this big theater. And this is for the twelve o'clock show. Wow.
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And I walked into the walked into the lobby and all the paramount execs
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were standing in there, grown men, jumping up and down like little kids.
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All these aw was dollar signs of course, and of course went on
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to be an extremely huge it. It did. The little neighborhood theater near
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me in Studio City had it in their theater for six months. Wow.
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Back when you could do that, you could do that? That was like,
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I mean, we were kind of following Star Wars in a lot of
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markets and were replacing Star Wars because I knew that as I was checking theaters,
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they'd usually not have a print of Saturday Night Fever yet, but they
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would put up the you know, a reel of Star Wars, and I'd
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look at it and check the sound and so on. Wow. Now,
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let me ask you a question when you approach how do you approach directing a
24:59
scene in general, Like when you're going to go into a scene, what
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is your thought process? What is your in your process in general? Well,
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there's usually about a dozen questions that I that I have to ask,
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which is, what's what's different at what have we learned? What's different at
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the end of the scene? From the beginning? You know, what?
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What were the characters in the scene? What did what did they want?
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What does one character want and what does the other character want. Let's say
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there's two people in the scene. Hopefully they're opposed to each other. They're
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not just all agreeing. You know, there's a there's there's some kind of
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conflict. So I'm always looking for, you know, where's the conflict in
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here? What's interesting? What what in the course of the conflict causes something
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to change from the beginning to the end of the scene. You know,
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I ask whose point of view is this scene? Is it this character or
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this character? You know, are we rooting for for anybody in particular?
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And then and then finally I'm asking, Okay, these guys have goals.
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A guy a guy wants to take a girl out for coffee, and she
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doesn't know if she likes this guy or not, so that his goal is
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to talk her into going for coffee, and her goal is, you know,
26:26
to kind of politely slide out of it, you know, and you
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know, there can be a fun scene there, you know. And how
26:36
does he go about it? Is he is he aggressive like a you know,
26:40
a real macho guy would be. Or is he a kind of nerdy
26:42
guy who's kind of embarrassed, but he's really excited about this girl and he
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really wants to, you know, take her, so he overcomes his shyness.
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So so as you just start to pull it apart. Asking these different
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questions, you you pretty quick develop a point of view on the scene.
27:03
Very cool. Now what do you do when you're not getting the performance you
27:07
want out of an actor? Well, usually I'm trying to help them and
27:17
sit, you know, go and say, now, what are you playing
27:19
here? What are you trying to get? What's your goal here? And
27:26
and usually a lot of the problem is that they haven't focused on that.
27:33
They say, well, you know, when I was a kid, my
27:37
dad used to you know, yell at me, and it made me wet
27:41
my bed. And I said, no, I don't want to hear this.
27:45
I want to know what are you doing right now? Well, I,
27:51
you know, and I've got to focus them on what they're trying to
27:55
do. And I and I'm really tough about making them come up with the
28:00
answer. I can go, and it's easy for me to go and tell
28:06
them. Now, you know, persuade this girl, you know, charm
28:10
her into going. I can do that. But the more I can make
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I can help an actor come up with stuff themselves, the you know,
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the better they're going to be. That makes perfect sense. Now, do
28:26
you have any advice for dealing with difficult actors or difficult department heads on a
28:30
set, which I'm sure you've had to deal with at one point or another
28:33
in your life. Absolutely every every department and and a cameraman, let's say,
28:45
comes up to me and I say, here, here, here's the
28:48
shot I was thinking about doing, and and he goes, well, I
28:52
don't know, I don't, I don't I don't like that that shot.
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There's uh, there's a lot of ways to deal with this, which is,
29:07
no, this is what we're going to do, and you know,
29:10
let's let's make it work that way, and you can get into a big
29:15
argument, or the guy goes, oh, okay, all right, fine,
29:18
which is the last time you'll ever get any you know, good creative
29:23
contribution from that camera in and or it's just going to be, you know,
29:30
a war between the two of you for the rest of the shoot.
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I look at the guy and go, oh, that's interesting. Tell me
29:37
about it, tell me what do you think. And he says, well,
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you know this that, And the next thing he said, Oh great,
29:44
tell me more I had. I never thought of it that way,
29:48
And even if it's the worst idea in the world, we'll be right back
29:53
after a word from our sponsor out back to the show. That's why,
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you know, saying something like I never thought of it that way is not
30:07
judgmental. It's just kind of letting him expound on it in the course of
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that, And it could work this way with an actor, with a costume
30:18
designer, with an editor. In the course of that, I'm learning what
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point of view that that person has on what we're talking about, and I'm
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and I'm hearing them, and I'm also getting them, giving them a chance
30:37
to kind of vent whatever feelings they have, and I'm not overriding them.
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And it doesn't mean that I'm letting him push me over either. I'm just
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I'm just listening and doing what what some people call active listening, where you're
30:56
just kind of feeding Oh, that's interesting. So you think that that this
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this shot is into the back light and you can't you can't light, you
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can't compensate for that. Yeah, well that's kind of what I was thinking.
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So what do you think? What do you think we should do?
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How would you do it? So with an actor, if an actor says
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well, I think I should be over here and I think should try this,
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I go, well, let's try it. My answer to them is
31:26
usually yes, let's go. Let's try it, because I know that if
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I let that person try it, that their sense of professionalism and their creative
31:40
instincts as an actor, it's going to start to ring alarm bells when it
31:45
doesn't work when they try it, when they say, oh, to be
31:48
over here, because the scenes scenes have a dramatic logic that it's hard to
31:53
buck right and if you go and you try some weird adaptation to the scene,
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it'll tell you, no, this doesn't feel right. But the actor,
32:06
having tried it first of all, is more willing to try it your
32:10
way, and you know, say well, let's do it both ways,
32:15
or he'll actually realize that it's you know, that his idea didn't work,
32:22
or miracle of miracles, it's a great idea and only by trying it,
32:27
did you say, oh my god, I would have missed an opportunity here
32:31
right by me. And I've had that happen any number of times, where
32:38
an actor comes up with an idea and I go, oh no, it's
32:43
side my head. I try to follow this little method that I just outlined
32:49
for you and go, oh my god, oh oh, that's great,
32:52
we would have missed something here. Well, thank you Bill to the actor
32:59
now. But that I mean, there's not a lot you can do.
33:01
On the other hand, with actors that are, you know, showing up
33:07
a drunk or high sure or just basically unprofessional, really untalented, that you
33:15
you made a mistake in casting, and that's that's when more radical solutions are
33:23
called for, Like you know, can you can you change? Can you
33:29
change the actor? If you can't, how do you how do you disguise
33:34
them? You know, hide them behind other people, shoot over their shoulder?
33:37
Uh? Two, Yeah, there's there's a little tricks here, and
33:42
it's away from them. But let me ask you something though, And I've
33:45
had this happen to me on set, and I'm sure it's happened to you,
33:49
not recently probably, but when you were first starting out where actors and
33:53
department ads as well, but more experienced actors will test you on the first
34:00
day to see if they're safe with you. And is that true? Absolutely,
34:07
of course yeah, And how do you deal and how do you deal
34:09
with that? And so I'm it's it's tricky because you know, I'm trying
34:16
to pay attention. I'm trying to be prepared, but I'm also trying to
34:22
be interested in what they're bringing to it. If if I look like I'm
34:28
paying more attention to the camera and the lenses than their performance, that they're
34:35
going to register that right away, you know, because you get to the
34:39
end of a scene and call cut and the camera operator goes no good.
34:46
The actor immediately thinks that's about them, that they're no good, whereas actually
34:52
the camera operator saw a coffee cup on the ground in the background and it
34:58
shouldn't have been there, right, So I'm always paying attention to the actor
35:05
and going over to I go over to every actor after every take, and
35:12
just even if it just pat them on the shoulder or nod my head or
35:16
your thumbs up, or say you're on a good path, or give them
35:21
a little direction, they know I'm paying attention because I'm trying to, you
35:27
know, build some trust, and building trust with an actor is, as
35:31
you say, very difficult. I started six point thirty in the morning,
35:37
going in the makeup trailer, saying, you know, good morning to them
35:40
as they're in the chair, and how are you thinking about today's work and
35:45
are there any problems I can help you with things like that, just to
35:50
start building building trust before we ever get on the stage. It's a lot
35:54
to do with psychology as well on that on the set, and that's something
35:59
they don't teach you at film school. They don't teach you the psychology of
36:01
the film set. Well, I try to where I teach at Chapman.
36:08
Sure. Uh, And that's that's a big part of it. And at
36:15
the risk of plugging my own stuff, my two books are dealing you know,
36:21
dealing with with problematic actors and building trust. What are the name of
36:28
the books? Please plug away? Okay, Well, John Bathamon directing.
36:32
Uh, it wasn't my idea for that title, but okay, and and
36:38
and and my first book which is called I'll Be in My Trailer, which
36:45
is something you often hear from, you know, from an actor. You're
36:47
having an argument with I'll be in my trailer, call my agent all my
36:53
age. Yes, that could be, that could be the sequel exactly.
36:59
Well, we'll make you to put links to those books in the in the
37:00
show notes of the of the show. Now you've worked with I mean over
37:06
the course of your career. I mean the the amount of different legends and
37:09
movie stars and and just talent is amazing. If you look over the scope
37:15
of your career, how do you direct a movie star? How do you
37:20
direct a legend? You know, as a younger director coming up, what
37:24
what do you or even if if you're on the same too, like you
37:28
know that there's different egos involved, there's different personas involved. How do you,
37:32
like, how do you direct a Mel Gibson and a Goldie hawn In
37:37
burn on a wire when both of them were arguably at the peak of their
37:40
stardom. They were in that area of the peak of their stardom, they
37:45
were giant movie stars. How do you how do you direct people like that?
37:50
Well? Uh, I think it's it's hard because because they're intimidating uh
38:00
people, They're they're bringing so much experience uh to to the set, and
38:07
and they they deserve respect they've earned the respect and and and I think they
38:15
become your creative partners. To treat them in any other way it was a
38:20
big, big mistake. And we sat with with Goldie on and with mel
38:27
for uh quite a while several times during the preparation of that of that movie,
38:34
you know, listening to their thoughts about the characters and the scenes and
38:37
what works and and both of them are very very smart people with with good
38:44
insights. And my my partner Rob Cohen and I, you know, spend
38:51
a lot of time listening carefully, uh to what they had to say and
38:55
taking taking advantage of it. It's it's not the kind of thing where it's
39:02
a one man a one man show like well, I can't think of think
39:10
of a good example where where it's all about the director. But but here,
39:17
you know, as you know in many star driven vehicles, you know,
39:24
you want their chemistry. You want to create a chemistry and foster a
39:29
chemistry between them, and and it's a comedy also, so uh, you're
39:36
looking for them to come to work in this in as happy and and and
39:42
uh and up a mood as possible, because that's going to reflect in all
39:46
of your scenes and if people are not happy. That really reflects I mean,
39:52
you can tell it. We as an audience can go We'll be right
39:55
back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.
40:05
There's no chemistry here, Oh my god, We've seen I've seen movies like
40:08
that with big movie stars you could just tell had absolutely no chemistry and had
40:13
no business being on the screen together, or that they hated each other off
40:16
see each other. Yeah, they hate each other. And you can tell
40:20
it. It just smells from from the screen, and it and and and
40:24
it smells the opposite way too. When there is that chemistry, when there
40:28
is that enjoyment, it spills right off the screen. Of course. Now,
40:31
of course, now when you've directed some uh just amazing action films in
40:37
the course of your career, in your opinion, what makes a good action
40:40
sequence, Well, uh, generally there has to there has to be something
40:51
where you're really involved the character, the main the main characters have really strong
40:57
opposing goals and and something becomes action when normal conversation just doesn't make it anymore.
41:07
You you know, it's gotten to the point where people have to get
41:13
into a fight, they have to do a chase, you know, so
41:19
words don't happen anymore, but they're people pressing their goals. And the trick
41:23
is, now, if you're if you're in, let's just say something as
41:28
simple as a car chase. What are the things that happened during that chase,
41:34
the different events that happen that start to get more and more exciting and
41:40
build. It can't just be the stage coach comes by, and then the
41:46
Indians are chasing it, and they come by. Then the stage coach comes
41:51
by, then the Indians come by. It's things have to be happening.
41:57
The Indians have to be trying to stop the stage coach and uh jumping onto
42:02
the lead horses to stop it, and the and the the guy up on
42:07
top of the stage coach is trying to shoot the guy who jumped on the
42:10
horses, right, And so you get through that. Now you've got to
42:15
come up with something that's even bigger and uh and keep keep a good action
42:22
sequence alive with with one one event after another. So when you look at
42:28
the great classic scenes that by one I'm describing is from John Ford's Stage Coach,
42:34
Uh, you know you can jump ahead to bullet or the French connection,
42:39
and and and see, Oh my god, we are so concerned about
42:45
the jeopardy that Gene Ackman is in chasing this subway tray under underneath the l
42:52
We're frightened to death because we know how scary that is, and and and
42:59
and he's almost hitting other people. But we wanted to catch up with that
43:02
subway train that's getting away. And I heard its specificly, Brian. Oh
43:07
no, I've studied that sequence, and from what I've read and heard that
43:13
they were really driving at like seventy miles an hour during that situation, like
43:16
it was a real thing. I mean, I know they had stunned people
43:21
and stuff like that, but it wasn't like they blocked off blocks and blocks
43:23
and blocks. I heard that they were like just really driving and yeah,
43:28
it was very scary, right, Yeah, they were Bill Bill Hickman,
43:32
who was the driver on that. You know, they'd go out at six
43:37
in the morning and just take off and oh my god, it's terrifying.
43:39
And you could get it on screen, and you got it on and you
43:43
got it on film. It was amazing that sequence. Anyone listening, if
43:46
you have not seen The French Connection, please stop listening to this podcast and
43:50
go watch the French connection. Now what any advice on working with younger or
43:58
less experienced casts, He's it's the same whether it's whether it's children or or
44:07
young adults. I mean with with children that the biggest trick is casting it
44:14
right in the first place. I mean, that's that's easy to say.
44:16
But if you haven't cast it right in the first place. With a child
44:22
who's got an imagination, who's relaxed, who's not intimidated, and who will
44:28
listen to you, you're you're in terrible trouble. But if you've got a
44:35
child that hasn't has an imagination, you can almost turn them loose. I
44:45
had a conversation with Robert Mulligan, who directed to Kill a Mockingbird, And
44:51
I said, how did you deal with these children? And and he said,
44:54
I cast them right in the first place. I just kind of put
44:58
them in situations and and and give them a little idea of what was happening
45:04
in the scene, and just let them go and and and their their imagination
45:10
took over. So of course he spent uh, Bob Mulligan and Alan Pecula
45:20
spent over six months trying to find those children in the first place, right,
45:24
you know, they they looked and looked and looked all over the country.
45:30
So that's, you know, part of the thing. You it's easy
45:34
if you can, if you can get Mel Gibson to come and be in
45:37
your movie, or you know, a big star, you know, most
45:44
of the work is being done for you by that person. Right. Yeah,
45:47
So I forgot who said it, but was it casting as ninety percent
45:52
of directing or something along those lines. Well, I think it was Elijah
45:55
Kazan Uh, Who's who said it? And and my question always was,
46:00
yeah, now how do you get that other ten percent? And you get
46:04
something? But tell us about that thing? Now. I wanted to ask
46:08
you about one of my favorite movies that you've done, A short Circuit.
46:13
How did you direct that robot on set? How did that work? I
46:17
mean, the technical aspects of that must have been. You must have pulled
46:21
your hair out, because I'm assuming it didn't work. All the time we
46:24
had. Most movie stars have some kind of a nice trailer. Number five
46:35
had an eighteen wheeler that was all his. It was filled with different versions
46:43
of him, big versions, little versions, versions that went left, versions
46:46
that went right, puppeteered versions, miniature versions to drop off Bridges and a
46:57
full time twenty four to seven, a special effects crew that kept him running.
47:04
I mean, he was our uh star, our Eddie Murphy. Uh
47:10
he was our comedy guy, the star. And Steve Gutenberg and Alie Sheety
47:16
God bless their hearts. Uh knew that and knew they knew where their place
47:22
was in the movie. That's okay. You know, we're here to support
47:27
Number five. Uh. And and I made everybody treat him like we had
47:32
Eddie Murphy. You know, I'd go on the set in the morning when
47:36
when the guys would bring him out, I'd go over and give him,
47:39
give him a hug, and start talking to him because we always had one
47:45
puppeteer that was the voice of Number five, and and so he would be
47:52
talking back. And you know, it's it's real easy with with creatures like
47:59
that to begin to believe they're real. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure.
48:02
When if you were talking to Frank Oz on the set of Empire Strikes
48:06
Back, eventually you just started looking at Yoda like it's Yoda. Yeah,
48:10
It's it's Yoda. And and you know, thank goodness, we didn't have
48:17
any huge mechanical breakdowns because the guys were so worked so hard to make sure
48:23
he was operating all the time and doing crazy impossible things like he looks at
48:30
a grasshopper in one scene and watches the grasshopper jump, and then a full
48:36
size, six foot tall Number five starts hopping like a grasshopper. I saw
48:40
that. And that was before visual like high end visual effects. Oh listen,
48:45
this is all mechanical, yeah, visual effects, special effects. Yeah,
48:50
it was knocked out. How he flipped a coin like like, oh
48:54
yeah, I remember, like James Cagney right, flipping a coin, and
49:00
and that was all stuff we had to do for real because there was no
49:04
CGI, right, It was all all practical. You could do simple match
49:09
shots and and very simple things like put in a sunset or something like that.
49:15
But to do what we do today, no way, not even close.
49:20
And I remember when that came out that was a monster hit as well.
49:22
That was another big hit when it came out. I'd loved it.
49:28
I love that movie. It was I have I have Number five, a
49:34
small version of Number five in my office. See that's awesome. Now one
49:40
other movie that you did that I want to talk to you about. How
49:44
did you approach directing a remake of a movie like lethem Nikita, with the
49:49
movie point in no return, How does the director approach a remake of somebody
49:53
else's work. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and
50:02
now back to the show. And how do you put your own twist on
50:07
it and be faithful to the original material. I've always wanted to know how
50:10
you were able to bring it, bring it to life. I so loved
50:16
lefem Nikita when I saw it, and it was in a very small theater
50:23
in Los Angeles. Uh. And and you know, I know that it's
50:30
often hard to get people to go and see subtitled movies, and and I
50:37
and I walked out of that and I said to my wife, you know
50:42
this, this would make a great American version. Uh. You know,
50:45
it's such an amazing story. And I just don't think, you know,
50:52
anybody's going to see it because we're seeing it in this nice little theater.
50:55
But you know, it was a little multiplex with fourteen theaters, and it
51:00
was in the smallest one of the fourteen. And I think I think during
51:07
off hours that theatre doubled as a phone booth. My brother observed it.
51:16
He's seen he'd seen more people in the seven eleven at three in the morning.
51:22
Right then, we're in this movie theater. So I also said to
51:28
her, if I'm thinking of this at the point this in the theater,
51:30
somebody else has got this idea, and somebody owns this. I bet somebody
51:35
has already bought this. Sure enough, Warner Brothers had bought it, or
51:39
Luke Bisson to direct an American version of it, an American version, and
51:45
he was going to come over and do an American version of it, and
51:50
and I and I shrugged my shoulders and went, well, too late.
51:54
I should have been earlier. And then Lucassan woke up one day and went,
52:00
I got other things to do. I've already done this. I don't
52:04
need to do this again. And that's somebody else. So then they they
52:10
came to me. And now our goal is how can we do an adaptation
52:16
of it without making, you know, with making something that is more American
52:22
than and uh fresh and and keep the spirit of it. It's kind of
52:28
difficult, but that's what we We went to writers uh who were character writers,
52:37
not not plot writer, and and that, and I thought it's all
52:45
going to be about her character. And and how that how that works for
52:50
us because we've got a very strong story here. We don't need more plot.
52:55
What we need is people, you know, characters that that we can
53:00
identify with. And that was that was our approach. And and it came
53:09
up with the idea of using for the soundtrack, using Nina Simone as as
53:16
a touchstone for her. Uh that that her songs and her kind of female
53:24
rebellion that Nina Simone sang about was was something that would that would be interesting
53:31
in helping, you know, helping this character. So you actually brought it
53:38
to life because of your love for it, right that was And I lobbied
53:44
hard, you know, to get that to get that job because I did
53:50
really really love it and and loved the character and loved all the characters.
53:55
It was such a great story, it was such a unique fresh worried when
54:00
it came out, it was it was monumental Luke and Luke is an amazing
54:04
director as well. Absolutely absolutely, I mean it's this time. I'm a
54:07
big big fan of his and and and I'm sure I was vilified in France
54:15
having you know, how dare you how dare you touch this? How dare
54:19
how dare I touch it? And I just I just told the French press.
54:22
I said, well, please talk to Luke Passon. He's the guy
54:25
that sold it to us, exactly. He Luke's the one that sold it.
54:30
We we just went and then very politely asked you know what you know?
54:37
Can we make a version of this? And he said sure. Now
54:43
I have a couple of questions left. Out of all the films that you
54:47
have made, do you have a favorite one? Well, it's it's hard
54:55
to say, because there's good things and bad things in everything, and you
55:01
know, I think about the good things and then WinCE at the bad ones
55:05
and the mistakes and things I could have told me all done better, And
55:10
sometimes it takes twenty five or thirty years before I go, oh no,
55:15
I just figured out how to do that now. All right, So you
55:22
now teach a Chapman University, what is the biggest lesson you try to teach
55:27
your students That It's not about the equipment. It's about the human beings.
55:35
It's not about the kind of fancy camera moves that it's easy to learn how
55:38
to do. It's about what is going on with the characters here. What's
55:45
the story? If you don't get that right, then all the rest matters
55:49
for nothing. With young with young directors, that the first thing you can
55:59
learn, the easy thing to learn is how the equipment works and and and
56:02
you can get it in your hands and it'll pretty much do what you wanted
56:07
to do. Uh. Human beings, on the other hand, are uh,
56:13
you don't They don't do what you want them to do. The ideas
56:15
and and they have they have creative thoughts and and you have to learn how
56:22
to deal with that and that that frightens uh young directors no end. And
56:29
a lot of our our job is trying to teach them how to work with
56:32
actors and and you know, learning how to how to get the best performance
56:38
out of them. In addition to uh, you know how how to work
56:45
with with screenwriters and and you know, make make stories work as well as
56:52
they can they can do. Now, what advice would you give a filmmaker
56:57
wanting to break into the business today? Is there something else that you'd like
57:02
to do? Why? For God's sakes, why why would you want to
57:07
do this? I mean, I have I have a class of twenty three
57:15
students right now who are all shooting their first short five minute films, okay
57:22
and uh and and they're start they're starting to learn a lot of the the
57:29
difficult parts of filmmaking that have nothing to do with filmmaking, uh, getting
57:35
getting permits, finding actors, budget, all kinds of things that they you
57:42
know, you don't think about when you're thinking about, you know, glamorous
57:45
filmmaking. But they're having they're having to learn. It's a it's a very
57:52
tough upward uh struggle, as as you know, and that almost has an
58:01
automatic self sorting uh factor to it, where people start dropping by the wayside
58:08
when they look, I don't have the energy, or that I don't care
58:13
about it enough to do it, or I'm not very good at this.
58:16
A lot of times we find people uh thinking they want to direct and then
58:22
realizing they don't like interfacing with with human beings as much, but they love
58:28
putting the film together or they love shooting, uh, you know, being
58:34
a cinematographer. Right, So they find other things that they that they really
58:38
enjoy doing and and that they're good at, and then they and they can
58:44
make a make a career there. Because God knows, we have enough opportunities
58:50
now with all of the television networks and channels and cable channels. Oh yes,
58:57
it's so uh insane. It's so great compared to say television of twenty
59:04
years ago, when you had four networks and that was it. That was
59:08
the only place you could go. But now, gosh, all over the
59:12
place. So there is opportunity, which is fabulous. And for those who
59:16
are, you know, making good films in film school, you know they'll
59:22
they'll get to break through. The cream does rise to the top, as
59:25
they say, absolutely, and if you were you know nowadays, if you're
59:32
talented, and let's say you're in a minority group or you're a woman,
59:37
you've got a leg up. It's a great time for them because people are
59:43
taking their them much more seriously and they're getting many more opportunities. Right,
59:52
we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor out back to the show,
1:00:02
My My. I had a manager, a talent manager come to one
1:00:08
of my classes to talk to them about it. And he looked around the
1:00:13
class of uh twelve people and he said, I can tell you who's going
1:00:19
to be the big talents in this in this room right now. I've only
1:00:22
been in this room for five minutes and he points to the two women.
1:00:30
So he said, I'm not joking. He said that you know you you
1:00:32
guys, will you know this is great. You're going to get an extra
1:00:37
an extra little break here, and then long long overdue too. Absolutely absolutely,
1:00:45
Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn,
1:00:46
whether in the film business or in life. Oh, my gosh, it's
1:00:54
a tough question. I think I'm still learning it, so I don't know
1:00:58
what it is. Fair enough, fair enough? And then three of your
1:01:04
favorite films of all time? Oh, okay, No Country for Old Men,
1:01:10
What a great movie. Oh love that movie. Citizen Kane. Uh
1:01:15
huh, huh what, Yeah, I've heard, I've heard of it.
1:01:19
Yes, you've heard of You've heard you've heard of it. I've seen it
1:01:21
many times. It's wonderful. And The Godfather, number number one or number
1:01:29
two? Can I lump them together? You literally another person, another guest
1:01:32
at the exact same thing. I'm like, I'm just gonna lump one and
1:01:35
two together because of the same movie. They're together. They should be,
1:01:39
so, absolutely, John, these are movies. These are movies that have
1:01:45
the I'm only gonna watch a scene test, which is you're flipping through the
1:01:50
channels and and you come across something a scene on Godfather Too, and you
1:01:57
say, oh, I'm only gonna watch a scene. Three hours later you
1:02:00
realize you've watched both the purchase. Yes, yes, it definitely has that.
1:02:06
It definitely passes that test. John, I want to thank you so
1:02:08
so much for being on the show and sharing your knowledge and experience with the
1:02:13
indie film Muzzle tribe. I really truly appreciate it. It's been an honor.
1:02:17
Oh well, thank you. It's fun to talk to you. Said,
1:02:21
good makes me think, thanks my friend. All Right, as promised,
1:02:27
John dropped some major knowledge bombs on the tribe today. So John,
1:02:30
again, thank you so so much for being on the show. It was
1:02:34
an absolute honor speaking to you, my friend. And if you want links
1:02:37
to any of his books or some amazing videos that I have in the show
1:02:40
notes, head over to Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward Slash three thirty six.
1:02:45
Thank you so much for listening, guys, As always, keep on
1:02:49
writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to
1:02:52
the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.