Latest / Gabriel Ellis, PhD | The Curious Mind Podcast / Therapy Recoding Series: "Hanni", Session 3

Transcript

Therapy Recoding Series: "Hanni", Session 3 · Gabriel Ellis, PhD | The Curious Mind Podcast

0:03
So, welcome to our third session with honey in the previous
0:08
session. We had kind of two contacts to
0:15
topics. One was to go more into the
0:19
mechanics of those background Loop thoughts that you have
0:23
identified as being behind the vague feeling of self-criticism.
0:28
So, as far as I understood, you actually, when you investigated
0:32
the work concrete scenes, concrete memories that played in
0:36
a loop in the background of your mind, that created those
0:39
feelings. This Is what I understood.
0:42
And it was quite challenging for you to get into the topic or to
0:48
access those memories which I completely understand.
0:51
Because after all the mind is quite busy to block them out.
0:55
Anyway. Mmm.
0:57
So that was a part of kind of your mind that is for whatever
1:02
reason, not really interested to bring these to the surface and
1:05
then in the second part we I guess we discussed more.
1:10
Magically about how you interact, how you show
1:15
vulnerability, how you ask for help, and we discussed a few
1:20
possibilities of how to frame it so that you can be more
1:24
comfortable to show yourself and to interact with people so that
1:30
you feel closer to them and you give them a glimpse into how you
1:35
feel like without overburdening them.
1:37
So there's the memory that I have of her.
1:40
Louis last conversation and today, I would like, since this
1:45
is our last session together in this recording series, I would
1:50
like to give you the opportunity to either continue with that.
1:55
One of these topics of last time or to put something in the
1:59
foreground is just a priority for you and so that we make the
2:04
best use for a time today. Okay.
2:10
Mmm. I think I've been well, I mean
2:18
it's been a while since we last spoke.
2:20
It's been a very hectic few weeks and there's been a lot of
2:27
different I think situations where mmm where I I mean I'm
2:36
just not feeling well, it just overall to say it in that sense
2:42
but So as we spoke last time about the memories and the
2:53
loops, and the kind of background, I guess Story, the
2:58
latest ones because I did try to kind of pinpoint, if there were
3:03
specific ones, or what, why, exactly am I choosing certain
3:10
Loops without? I mean, I don't, it's not
3:12
conscious, but, and guess the latest ones would be because It
3:19
was my birthday a couple of weeks ago and have it having a
3:22
birthday for me is always very difficult.
3:27
It's not it it's not a happy happy day. and, and so the past,
3:43
two weeks after my birthday, I think I've been really having a
3:49
lot of kind of the same looping story and it's been about people
3:56
that I have had close to me or that Ford since my last partner
4:02
or I guess my father who Like who didn't reach out to me to
4:10
even say happy birthday and then this has been very hard for me
4:15
because I mean I don't think I need to explain to what it would
4:21
make me feel bad. Yeah, but it's been constant, I
4:30
think questioning of trying to understand there. in their
4:39
thinking, or time to forgive trying to Question also being
4:47
upset and angry not understanding. and this kind of
4:55
feeling, I think, questioning or whatever you want to call it, is
5:01
it makes it brings me down every time and I can't get out of it
5:08
and I'm and I want to and I'm questioning how how I guess what
5:16
how can I maybe adapt my A way of thinking or or say, I don't
5:24
know, like, what can I do it guys?
5:27
My question that, So that I can just move past that or that I
5:34
don't have such, I guess, strong feelings come from that.
5:40
Because at the end, I cannot control what other people do and
5:45
I don't want to know let it affect me longer than I don't
5:52
know, I just don't want to have to like in going on.
5:56
Now through weeks, having those continuous loop of of the same
5:59
kind of A situation where it just, it brings me down.
6:04
And I just feel really, really, and that obviously affects
6:08
everything else in my life because it makes me feel like I
6:11
just have no self worth. Like just feel like if other
6:15
people can provide such a think, simple thing.
6:24
Yeah. And I'm not speaking.
6:27
I was strangers. Of course, then why I don't
6:30
know. It just makes me like question
6:31
me as a person and I don't know, it makes it very hard for me to
6:37
feel good. Yes.
6:43
So that's quite understandable, right?
6:45
One of our all of us. One of the main things that we
6:51
want to experience is to be liked, wanted and loved.
6:57
And in the previous conversations, we already
7:01
touched upon the topic that you occasionally, feel isolated, and
7:06
you feel that the people or the some people around, you not
7:10
don't know you very well and you don't know how to change this
7:13
and to open up. So, It sounded like a ready, you
7:18
were kind of having difficulties with a lack of authentic
7:23
connection and closeness. And then on top of that, you
7:27
have a situation now that you described, where you ask
7:31
yourself, am I that unlovable that those people who for whom
7:36
it would be, just just a decent thing?
7:41
To wish me well for my birthday. Not even the greatest love or
7:44
affection, but just to say hi, I just know as people sometimes do
7:49
just a random Facebook message that takes 5 Seconds.
7:54
Literally, hmm if they don't have to do that.
7:59
And it's not just one person, but there seems to be a pattern,
8:03
there's a group of people who should do that just by the
8:08
status because, We were close or their family or something, they
8:13
don't do that. What?
8:15
That cannot be all about them. That must say something about
8:18
me. What's wrong?
8:19
With me? Why am I so unlovable or visible
8:25
for them? Right.
8:28
So it touches kind of a topic and a theme that would disturb
8:32
any of us. It's bearable when we have a few
8:37
people that were really close to right?
8:40
And because then this is where the Mind goes the mind.
8:43
If I have three good friends to good, family members, something
8:48
like that. The Mind goes to them and tells
8:52
itself at least I have them screw those other people.
8:56
I don't need them because I have them.
8:59
But if I have too few of them or the qualities with them is not
9:03
as I hope, I don't have a resting point, the Mind cannot
9:07
go to. This one place that says, at
9:09
least I have them. And this is, no, this is how I
9:15
understand your situation so that more or less correct.
9:21
Yeah I guess that I may be at the yeah I feel that way and I
9:26
think it's also I'm wondering why I can't just feel that.
9:36
I'm okay, I'm okay with. I guess just having me in some
9:40
sense so that I can just feel, I guess, the better and just try
9:46
to. Well, maybe if I don't
9:49
understand, that's okay. Just say that if I don't
9:51
understand how other people behave, that's okay but that
9:55
doesn't reflect on me, but it seems to be the other people's
9:59
behavior. Yeah.
10:00
It affects me so much that that it Kind of shifts my own
10:07
self-worth and confidence. Yes, and that is gr the same
10:12
time. There is so much truth in what
10:14
you say and it's so difficult this is what we would love to
10:18
have everyone would love to have that and to you know so many
10:23
things that we do in our life, the masks that we wear the
10:27
careers that we pursue the, you know, financial means and all of
10:31
that. An important part of that is
10:34
that we try to secure a lifestyle and a network of
10:39
people that makes me independent so that I can choose with whom I
10:45
want to be friends and I'm, you know so good at how I come off
10:51
that of course they want me as different or if I want to live
10:55
in a certain place. I can go into this calm peaceful
11:00
neighborhood. Calm.
11:01
Peaceful City that I like To have those, you know,
11:06
Inspirations culturally or socially.
11:09
This is a part good part of why we're doing the normal things
11:13
that we're doing in life is to secure this Superior position
11:16
that allows us to choose and to be in the place of agency.
11:21
So many people wish for themselves to be Teflon in that
11:26
sense. To be independent, to be
11:29
sufficient, and to just reach out to the people that they want
11:33
to be in touch with, but not out of desperation, not out of need.
11:37
Yeah, At the same time, this is the most difficult thing to do.
11:45
Because when we develop when the Mind develops, it develops an
11:51
interaction and it develops and complete dependence.
11:56
There is no desire or need baked into our system that can be
12:03
purely satisfied on my own. Kind of, you know, naturally.
12:11
over the centuries, we have developed, you know, cultural
12:15
psychological means to build something within us that
12:22
resembles a self-reliance You know with all those meditation
12:28
techniques and the relaxation techniques, and the
12:31
self-reflection techniques and so on.
12:34
Because finally, we want to get rid of this dependence, that we
12:39
grew up with the dependence, on the parents that dependence on,
12:43
you know, early friends on the environment.
12:45
In general, all this effort, just shows how difficult that
12:50
is. so, while I understand that you have the strong wish on this
12:57
longing for Independence, It's really an incredibly difficult
13:06
thing to pull off the people don't seem to struggle with
13:09
that. There are people like we see
13:11
them whatever's friends and so on.
13:15
Basically they fall into the category of, they don't know
13:18
what they have. They have been given so much in
13:23
terms of how they grow up, what kind of parenting they
13:28
experienced, what kind of, you know, because of the style and
13:32
interact. People feel attracted to them.
13:35
So they think that they have a choice and making friends.
13:39
And so on, it's what I want to say with that is they have not
13:44
gained a true Independence. They're lucky for the resources
13:49
that they have been given. They are not independent, it
13:54
seems to them and many are so confident, and they know how to
14:01
approach people and so on. So they had the confidence of,
14:03
you know, what, no matter where, I end up.
14:05
If I stay in this country, in this city, I can always make
14:09
some friends because my experience shows that I have
14:13
this way with people, right? What about the people that
14:17
don't? What about if they for whatever
14:23
reason lose the stand, lose the capacity and the skill to to
14:29
attract people to catch them. And the up people, for example,
14:34
you know, while we are at University, many people think
14:39
that, oh, social life is easy. You just talk to someone and so
14:42
on, and then there is kind of the big shocker when they go
14:44
into work life. Maybe they start their own
14:48
business or there aren't some small company or they have to
14:51
move to another place and suddenly there's the
14:54
realization. Oh you know, you know that as an
14:57
as an expat when we move somewhere, I'll first experience
15:00
is not that the greatest people are looking for me.
15:05
The interesting good people that I perceive as good people, they
15:09
have the spots taken the handle people.
15:15
So when it comes to those transitions, then it occurs too
15:19
many people. Oh you know what actually it's
15:21
not that easy. There is another transition
15:24
point that, you know, well, we are in the same generation when
15:28
we approach the middle age. Not necessarily you and this
15:33
example but other people who have been occupied with family
15:37
and then the kids get older maybe you know the partner
15:41
distances themselves for whatever reason from them, then
15:44
realize. Oh I didn't actually invest in
15:47
friendships over the past years. So, who do I have now?
15:52
And then it might look Bleak which again, shows how difficult
15:57
it is to be to have this Independence.
16:04
Okay, so I'm recounting all this, I'm speaking about this to
16:12
make clear how big of a challenge that is to develop a
16:17
core Within Myself. That is self-reliant that allows
16:22
me to retreat into this place when I'm soft when I'm
16:28
vulnerable. And when I'm weak, It's
16:31
situation that you are in right now.
16:36
And as much as I would wish that people would have easily
16:40
accessible, it is one of the most difficult things to pull
16:42
off. What are your thoughts about
16:49
about that when you when you hear me kind of trying to
16:52
putting it into context? Yeah, I think I'm just thinking
16:56
about maybe then what if it's a big challenge then what?
17:05
Smaller things I guess could I do so that it that so that I'm
17:13
not I don't get so overwhelmed or effects so much of who I am
17:18
true because if it's yeah something that's going to be
17:21
such a huge amount in to climb and what are the little steps
17:25
steps I guess I can do too. So that I'm in some sense,
17:31
taking care of myself, but obviously, I'm not solving the
17:35
huge picture. If it's, if it's, you know, a
17:39
hard hard task because I just, yeah, I don't know.
17:45
I just because I need to still be present in life.
17:53
And I still need to, you know, function in some sense and I
17:58
Find that it when I'm feeling this way, it really affects.
18:02
So me so much that it's, it's just like, it's really hard to
18:09
kind of turn it off. Yes, absolutely.
18:15
I think the, a couple of things to say here, there is a
18:18
programmatic part. Actually, a part that, you know,
18:21
quite well because you have been working on yourself on many
18:25
levels, not just on the super Patrick ones.
18:27
Also going deeper Um yeah. So you know this approach and
18:33
just to kind of recount a few things that you mentioned.
18:38
You you're doing breathing techniques you're doing yoga.
18:41
As far as I remember some sort of meditations positive
18:47
affirmations, something like that.
18:50
So you have been on this journey and I'm sure that many things
18:54
that you have not described that you have done over the years.
18:59
So, you're familiar with that approach.
19:00
What can add to that? Is that?
19:05
Because this is a interactional kind of issue, a source, that
19:12
gives me a grievance that comes from a lack of nice encounters
19:17
or emotionally, real reliable encounters, it would be good to
19:24
have a social thing that somehow at least contributes to fill
19:28
that Gap. And what I have in mind is, you
19:32
know, when over the years, when I reflect on, Which social
19:35
groups I interacted with, so for example, when I went to
19:39
meditation groups And I'm not insisting on the meditation
19:44
context. I just want to highlight what an
19:47
interesting quality of that was, which is that usually, I didn't
19:51
go out with those people afterwards.
19:53
Usually, I didn't become friends with them.
19:55
So it's not that it was kind of on the path on deepening
19:59
friendships. Usually once a week, I went to a
20:03
place and the were a couple of people tend to have people, but
20:07
the atmosphere that was there was really positive.
20:12
Of. And I would argue it is positive
20:16
because people didn't know each other very well.
20:21
Once you get to know each other, you understand the quirks, you
20:24
see something, they don't like and so on, but it was kind of
20:27
the atmosphere was carried by this benevolence, by this common
20:30
understanding that, you know, we gather to do something good for
20:34
ourselves, we want to be nice to each other.
20:37
You know, when we speak, we speak in a respectful way.
20:42
So there is this artificial kind of thing there that, you know,
20:45
everyone is taking a break from their difficult lives, but still
20:49
it felt good. And usually I II and the people
20:55
that I know that, I spoke to the left, you know, such an evening
21:00
Gathering or weekend Gathering, whatever it was was a with a
21:03
positive feeling of it was good. Everyone tried everyone was nice
21:08
welcoming and so on. So this is what I have in mind
21:12
and I would like to ask you to do.
21:15
You have Cycles like these? Do have experience with groups
21:18
like these? Can you imagine to Act with
21:21
groups like these just to get, you know, a sense of well wishes
21:26
from other people, and a positive fiber, positive style
21:29
of interaction. Yeah, definitely in the past.
21:35
I think I have, yeah, me neither with being with a, just going to
21:41
yoga class or I don't know when I go to sing at a choir and
21:49
always left. I don't know.
21:51
It's such a it's a good feeling and So, yeah, definitely.
22:00
I can understand your experience and and Definitely have been
22:06
there myself. Do you have experience with
22:10
groups like these? Where there was not just a
22:12
common activity, like, you know, singing and doing yoga.
22:16
But that involves also conversations where there's a
22:19
group into action. So, you know, the group, for
22:22
example, we use of course to meditate.
22:24
That's the majority of the time, but then afterwards, there was a
22:28
45-minute discussion where many people had the experience of
22:33
they said something and then It resonated with others and people
22:38
would have the opportunity to say, oh, that's such an
22:41
interesting observation and this is what I experienced and then
22:44
immediately, I feel, you know, acknowledge so it's not just
22:49
that there is an atmosphere but also the conversations kind of
22:54
their it carried this positive sentiment this positive vibe and
23:00
I know yoga groups can do that but I know that many of them are
23:04
more. Is oriented.
23:06
So I wonder if, if you had something like this, no.
23:13
Not recently. It's been a long time since I've
23:17
had Something like that in a group, could you imagine that
23:23
this would be would have a soothing and a positive effect
23:27
on you? Yeah.
23:33
I mean, as you're speaking, I'm thinking about time when I was
23:38
in group therapy and your students.
23:42
Yeah, that it was very it was at first something that I think I
23:49
struggled with because it was speaking about your own
23:52
experiences within a group and not being one-on-one with just
23:55
the therapist, but I think I really benefited benefited from
24:00
the situation because it was, you got to hear so many. friend
24:04
experiences and ways of looking at situations or things that I,
24:09
you know, maybe I hadn't thought about or just, I guess, just I
24:19
don't know and they always say I did always be with with a sense
24:23
of connection in that sensor. I mean, in some sense were
24:29
bonding. Yes.
24:31
Yeah, I can totally see that. And I think that them many
24:38
contexts institutes places, who wear something like this
24:48
offered, it doesn't have to be therapy, it can be.
24:51
Yeah. Workshops for example, right?
24:53
That. All right, in based where
24:55
people, Oh, go there to learn a skill but at the same time, they
24:59
all acknowledge that they kind of need and lack.
25:03
What is offered. So there's the humbleness there,
25:06
there's the understanding of we're all in the same boat and
25:10
we see eye-to-eye. So I think that this is, this is
25:16
something I think there is a possibility there to explore,
25:21
you know, the offerings that are around you.
25:26
And to indeed maybe find an offer that provides that because
25:31
you know what you said is absolutely true.
25:32
Didn't people have this on all kinds of context like this you
25:35
know, be Church groups or AA meetings or group therapy where
25:42
people gather and they all share this understanding of we're all
25:48
flawed. We kind of share an issue.
25:54
Or you know, topic that we like and so we don't denigrate.
25:58
We don't criticize. We are all here as as people who
26:03
need support. Mhm.
26:08
Yeah, so it sounds, it sounds really nice to me.
26:15
Yeah, I mean I think that would definitely help me. and, yeah, I
26:26
mean, looking back at the experiences I did have with us
26:29
kind of Groups and communication, I think.
26:35
That it was that I did feel somewhat.
26:42
That I benefited from it just just, I guess.
26:46
Yeah. Like you said, it's sharing
26:48
experiences and just knowing that we're all kind of in that
26:52
going through, I guess it all in some sense together, even though
26:56
it may be a different situation. Yes.
27:00
And what I would like to highlight an important aspect in
27:02
that is not that, you know, you are the listeners, get the idea
27:06
of oh, so we're all wallowing and of and pain or something
27:09
like that. A great advantage of these
27:12
groups are it's confined because we, you know, a topic that we
27:17
touched upon in our last conversation, when I have, when
27:21
I am in an open context with a friend or someone that I think
27:25
could become a friend. I'm always worrying about.
27:29
Am I too much? Am I overburdening, can I dare
27:33
to be more open? Or should I stay superficial all
27:36
of this? Because it's an open, it's an
27:39
open context, could go anywhere. It can become the best
27:41
friendship in the world or for the next sentence.
27:45
You know, that, that I reveal something they could say, that's
27:49
not for me, she's stupid or too much or too something.
27:54
Right? So there's a risk and this risk
27:57
is heavy on the mind. The Mind, especially if I'm
28:01
insecure because then I was like, should I say that?
28:04
Should I go there? Should I suggest this meeting or
28:07
that and the great advantage in such groups is The context is
28:11
clear. You know, you go there, it's one
28:14
and a half, one hour, two hours of sharing, whatever.
28:18
And then everyone goes home. Yes, an exceptional cases.
28:21
You can, you know, you can friend someone there but then it
28:26
has to be really clear. Like it's it's usually don't
28:30
just try to befriend everyone in such a group.
28:32
Usually it's clear, we go there we share and then we leave.
28:37
So there's one less less risk and less burden on my And plus
28:41
if it's moderated well it's relatively clear what the
28:44
expectation is sure this sure that and then someone leads by
28:48
example and then I understand kind of where the group dynamic
28:51
goes. And again I don't have to think
28:55
too much about should I say that or not because the context make
28:58
it makes it clear. What is in the range of the
29:01
acceptable of the expecting? Okay.
29:13
I think. I think the other question
29:19
that's coming out for me is that I do and I wanted to kind of get
29:23
your feedback or is How? Because as people, I think we're
29:39
never truly going to really understand somebody else's
29:42
Behavior or, and how, how is it that?
29:50
Instead of taking that on and letting it affect us, how can we
29:54
kind of shift a way of thinking so that you can stop kind of
30:00
questioning? And just have some understanding
30:03
in the not understanding, if that kind of makes sense, can
30:07
you give me an example? Because I didn't quite
30:09
understand what? Yeah like I mean just going back
30:13
to like what I was saying about maybe My father not taking the
30:20
five seconds to write me on Facebook.
30:21
Say, happy birthday. How can I just say, okay, I
30:26
don't understand his behavior. It hurts me but I'm going to try
30:32
to not understand. And that's okay because I won't
30:36
understand and just kind of leave it at that.
30:39
I mean, I'm just giving an example instead of instead of
30:43
like taking on having and questioning myself for weeks as
30:46
to why he wouldn't do it. Why, you know, like what did I
30:52
do, or what kind of shitty father is he like all of these
30:56
like, very negative things that just at the end.
30:59
Don't help me. Yes, yes.
31:02
So this is trickier because To put it.
31:06
In other words, you're trying to deprogram the mind.
31:13
To not to do something that it very readily does.
31:18
Our mind is one part of our mind is constantly constantly trying
31:25
to calculate if I'm liked and loved by my surrounding or not.
31:31
Like, I live here in Poland, right?
31:32
And for a while, I could kind of observe how part of the mind is
31:38
obsessing about what do they think?
31:39
Neighbors. Think about me, like, do they
31:43
see me as the weird German guy, or do they, like, foreigners it
31:47
all or like our, when I walked, I don't speak Polish right?
31:52
When I walked past and they say something, is it comments about
31:55
me all these things right? And just certain extent we
31:59
cannot To help but having these kind of Assessments and
32:03
calculations all the time because, you know, on a simple
32:08
level, we depended on it evolutionarily to to understand.
32:12
Am I in danger in my immediate surrounding So to come to a
32:20
point where I say, oh, I don't care, the fuck about what they
32:25
think about me. I lead my life.
32:27
Why should I care? I have to take a, I have to
32:32
remove myself from the issue and get to a different place.
32:36
What I mean with that is I stopped to reflect about them
32:40
and what they may say. And then to tell myself how, I
32:43
don't care what they say. I have to get to a place where I
32:47
contemplate about my life and I ask myself, do I want to lead a
32:52
life where I depend on other people?
32:56
Or other people's opinions or my neighbor's opinions.
33:03
All right, so I asked myself a more general question.
33:07
I'm, I'm not directly at the issue.
33:12
I would be more at the issue at, you know, kind of hand-to-hand
33:16
combat with the issue. If I walk past people, they say
33:19
something and then I would be like, no, it doesn't matter what
33:23
they say. Just go straight, don't look,
33:26
don't make a calm and don't think, you know, then I would be
33:29
kind of from the right in the Battle of things as similar as
33:34
you described. You think about your dad and he
33:38
not sending you a message and then you would like to turn that
33:41
thought off all that pain off. yeah, well I think I would maybe
33:47
yes if that's just too much to do and maybe fine like the
33:53
middle ground of how can I just like, How can I maybe shift the
34:07
way I am? or I mean I guess I just wanted
34:14
Somehow not go through that whole Loop of it affected me for
34:18
so long - instead of just yeah instead of just being like, Oh,
34:22
I don't give a fuck because obviously I do, right?
34:26
I'm trying to find a way that it's like, okay, well, I don't
34:32
know. I'm never going to understand
34:34
why he does a thing. He does.
34:36
So how can I just Find a way to just separate.
34:45
I guess is, maybe that this is me and this is him, and his
34:51
behavior is his in mind, his mind.
34:54
So yeah, yes, that's, that's a good term to separate those two
35:00
and in a weird way, you know, I would offer something
35:05
counterintuitive. We just first of all to admit
35:09
myself. Too much to admit to myself that
35:12
a part of me is really craving for his for his recognition,
35:18
right? This is the place that I do want
35:21
to go to because this is what hurts I'd because I crave for
35:27
his recognition. This is why it hurts, right?
35:29
So to intentionally, go there again, doesn't look like
35:36
something that would be helpful. Because I want to get away from
35:40
that. Right.
35:44
Mhm. I would say that it's important
35:48
because there is when I acknowledge something that is
35:56
true Within Myself. There is a strength that comes
36:01
from that. Let's call it the strength that
36:04
comes from self honesty. And there is a stability, there
36:10
is make a little bit of a leap year.
36:15
There is an aspect of self love and being able to admit to
36:19
myself something difficult. Mhm.
36:23
I'm acknowledging something that creates for recognition.
36:27
Not only, you know, that the recognition that I would like to
36:30
have from my grandfather for my dad, but all kinds of desires
36:35
that are difficult. If I have a kink or something
36:37
that I'm ashamed about Even from that, there is a there's an act
36:41
of self-love if I can stand behind that.
36:45
Or if I did something that I find difficult to admit to
36:48
myself. If I cheated, if I stole
36:52
something, if I betrayed someone write something that's truly
36:55
horrible and I would never kind of consciously, I would like to
37:00
erase that from my mind. And still, if I go there and
37:05
admit to myself when I did that, I'm ashamed of it but it did
37:10
that. There is an acknowledgment of
37:12
this thing that is burning inside of me.
37:16
And there is a secondary pain. From this memory of what I did
37:24
because it knows that I don't like it.
37:29
Right. So if I personalize kind of this
37:32
thing, the shameful didn't thing that I did.
37:34
Let's say I stole something right?
37:37
Even this memory wants to be recognized.
37:40
But this memory knows that I don't want to have anything to
37:44
do with that, but I would like to erase that and it cannot
37:49
endure. It it wants to be recognized.
37:53
So, in a similar way, when you admit to yourself, when you
37:57
start with right, as a starting point, I crave for love and for
38:03
recognition from certain people. And it hurts me so much that I
38:08
don't get it. as a starting point, there is a quality in
38:14
that, There's a quality of truth of honesty and of Bravery.
38:21
Hmm. Can you get a sense of what I'm
38:26
ending up? Yeah.
38:29
And this I can use as a scaffolding because in order to
38:34
let go, this is what you have in mind, right?
38:36
In order to have the strength to separate those two needs to see
38:40
the father as a complex person that he is, that he will have
38:44
his reasons that he has, his subjective reasons to not
38:49
acknowledge me, or not to reach out, or to despise me, or
38:52
whatever. I would like to have the
38:55
strength to see it this way, in order for the strength to be
38:59
there, I need some sort of foundation.
39:02
Hmm. And as this kind of radical
39:05
stand of self-honesty, Which I would argue is based on
39:11
self-love because I'm recognizing aspects and side of
39:15
me that are difficult to recognize.
39:18
This can give me this can be a source of this strength.
39:28
Hmm. Now it probably doesn't suffice
39:32
I you know, like we spoke before it's a difficult thing to pull
39:35
off. So I would mostly argue for a
39:38
mixed model of. Yes, you know, try find a good
39:43
group of friends or find a group context.
39:47
Do those things that you do, you know, the breathing, the
39:50
affirmations, the physical exercises in order to get
39:54
strength, right? So that in itself this This kind
39:58
of radical self honesty and admitting to oneself, the
40:01
difficult things that are within me, might not suffice to give me
40:05
the strength that I need, but it will be an important
40:09
contribution. Okay, so a real exercise, you
40:15
know, if we looking at a pragmatic level would be to
40:19
actually sit down and write down the difficult things that I
40:23
know. I have a hard time to face.
40:28
And to have, you know, an exclamation mark behind that
40:32
just guess I understand. I know that this is within me.
40:38
And I accept it for what it is. For now, I don't like the
40:42
consequence of this I don't like the consequence that my craving
40:47
for love, makes me weak and makes me insecure, but I see it.
40:53
I acknowledge it. So to have an actual list and to
41:02
go through this and to go through the process of accepting
41:05
it for as it is right now, not meaning that I want to accept it
41:09
as a good thing or for the future, something I want to work
41:12
on it but I start with an acknowledgement.
41:17
What, what are the thoughts that you can become too?
41:26
Writing down things or I don't know.
41:30
You, whatever thoughts you have. You just wanted to comment on
41:33
something oh no, I was just listening in to what you were
41:38
saying. Okay.
41:40
Yeah. Can you imagine to do something
41:42
like this? Or do you think it's too
41:43
challenging? No, I think I could do it.
41:54
Mmm. And I think, especially you can
41:59
get another source of energy from your willingness to change
42:06
something, because this is how we started our conversations
42:10
when you said it's, this is what I got.
42:12
At least for me, it's kind of enough.
42:13
I don't want to deal with this stuff anymore.
42:16
Would be in a different place. Mmm.
42:21
Which to me sounds like you are willing to to look at yourself.
42:27
Even in this you know unromantic way and to have this sober
42:35
assessment of where you had spaces Yeah.
42:46
Yeah, I think that maybe up to this point.
42:49
I mean, I'm I'm just kind of skimming my memory but it's been
42:55
maybe the things that I've been writing down or journaling have
42:58
been about, maybe affirmations are such about how I'm strong
43:03
how, you know, I can deal or conceal.
43:08
I'm that to just let things kind of Be as they occur and to kind
43:21
of accept and maybe as I'm, I've been listening to what you're
43:27
saying. It's I have to really sit down
43:29
and be like And sit down, but really look at the inner inner I
43:37
guess. The inner Void.
43:42
I don't know if that's the term, my bad.
43:45
Just just maybe just be like, well, in some sense, maybe I do
43:54
feel weak in this. No, yes.
43:58
And that's okay. Yes, for me, there's a really
44:04
dramatic difference. I mean, you know, for some
44:07
people, the affirmations work. I don't know about that.
44:11
But what is missing for me in that is if I was the, if I am
44:18
the voice of Shame Within Me. Right?
44:22
I kind of again, I intrude on troop amorphize it right and I
44:28
assume it's a being within me for the sake of Simplicity.
44:33
I am that shame and then I see my my master, you know, my boss
44:39
Saying I want to be just good or I want to be proud of what I do
44:46
or something like that. My sense of like, hey, what
44:50
about me? And the response would be like,
44:55
what about you? You're a piece of shit.
44:57
I don't want you in my system. So, I'm without knowing it,
45:03
without wanting it by only focusing on the positive.
45:08
Only focusing on the informations.
45:11
There is an implicit rejection of so many Arts within me.
45:16
Yeah, and rejection is the thing that I'm already suffering from.
45:21
Hmm. Right.
45:25
And here to start with, okay, everyone gather around.
45:30
What do we have? I'm proud of the things that
45:34
I've done. Of the good that I slowly
45:38
brought into my life and I'm still ashamed of the bad things
45:42
that I've done, right? And I'm sad for my vulnerability
45:46
when it comes to other people. even though I would like to be
45:51
so strong, but it pains me that I want to reach out to people
45:55
and I can't and when, you know, in this Manna to collect all of
46:02
those voices and then I feel how all of these voices are heard
46:08
And then there's the kind of let go.
46:12
Because they are acknowledged. Hmm.
46:18
They're ready to say, okay, now that I've been heard I'm ready
46:23
to move with a team to another Shore.
46:27
Mmm, let's work towards self-reliance.
46:31
You know, positivity and so on. Does that intuitively makes
46:37
sense to you? Yeah, I think that.
46:41
Yeah, it makes sense. I think maybe at some point in
46:46
my life where I've been truly truly depressed and I needed to
46:50
kind of really build myself up in the, I think the positive
46:57
looking at the positive things and doing the positive
47:00
affirmations have really helped, yes, to kind of lift my energy
47:04
and my spirit and And bring me to a place where, you know, I
47:08
can function. Yeah, but I think I'm at the
47:11
place now where I don't, that's I don't have that same
47:14
experience of being truly depressed, or truly.
47:18
I think it's more coming. I think.
47:20
Now, it's kind of Shifting the sense that I have to kind of
47:23
look at the inner pain, so that I'm able to kind of heal that.
47:28
So, so that so that I can start feeling is kind of positive
47:36
things as as a daily Daily, I guess routine.
47:43
Something normal As I do, I do understand that if you're not in
47:51
the position to really look at that - because you're not, you
47:54
know, you're not feeling good. It can bring you down and you
47:59
would are darker place and hmm. So I think, yeah, I think it's.
48:11
I think it will be helpful to start looking at all of this.
48:17
They really inner hurts to kind of start healing those things.
48:20
So, hmm. It's maybe the positive
48:24
affirmations are and helping so much right now because there's
48:27
other other work that I need to do.
48:34
Yeah. You know like what you said that
48:37
the was a time when they really had that purpose and they worked
48:40
for you. Right.
48:41
Yeah, definitely. So yes.
48:44
That's important to keep in mind.
48:46
Hmm. I mean I'm sure it will be a I
48:52
will have to kind of blend both things.
48:54
I mean Looking at the hurt is hard.
49:00
So the the positive affirmations and Keeping that in the the I
49:09
guess in the front line walk. We'll help too.
49:13
So, yeah. And to add another perspective
49:21
on this, when you do this and you, you look at all those
49:25
different voices within you and you acknowledge them, isn't that
49:30
what you hope others who love you would do for you?
49:35
Or to put it differently. Isn't that what you, what you
49:41
asked about the beginning? How can I be more self, self
49:45
reliant, and less dependent on other people.
49:49
If you can show those, this kind of self-love forwards yourself.
49:54
Those, those parts that you intuitively would like to get
49:57
rid of that, you're ashamed of that you're not proud of.
50:02
At least for me, this is something that when I think of
50:05
an ideal person to love me. These are the things that they
50:09
would accept. Mmm.
50:13
And I could let myself just fall and, you know, just think, thank
50:16
you. You know, for being so just
50:20
accepting and non-judgmental. Right.
50:26
Give this to myself. isn't that, you know, major step towards A.
50:37
And Independence to towards a place where I understand.
50:42
I don't you I don't need you. Other person, you know, beat my
50:45
dad beat a friend. I don't need you anymore to
50:48
accept me because I accept myself and a much more radical
50:52
way than anyone else could. Yeah.
50:59
Mmm. And then I guarantee you because
51:10
this is how the mind works. It doesn't stop there.
51:13
Sometimes people are worried. What happens if I if I accept,
51:17
you know, kind of thing that I'm not proud of, doesn't it mean
51:20
that I'm okay with it and nothing changes.
51:22
This is not how it works because with acceptance, there is a
51:25
changing Dynamic, that happens something shifts within me when
51:29
something difficult is accepted and embraced and it leads to
51:33
something more fulfilling that you're better feeling with
51:35
myself and so on, it's not static.
51:45
Yeah. I mean I'm already kind of
51:47
feeling that and so sometimes having having that recognition,
51:52
not recognition and what's the word I'm thinking of a like
52:00
impending understanding what and Of the sense of acknowledging,
52:08
all of these things and accepting is already in some
52:12
sense. making me feel lighter and giving me some clarity as to
52:26
yeah that it's okay to just feel these things or I don't know I
52:33
don't know if I'm explaining very well but yeah I understand
52:42
and I think it will it will be something I mean that I
52:46
definitely did not next step in And my own self work that I need
52:55
to do and be good. Okay, if you don't mind, why
53:04
don't you give me an us for the end of this session, a kind of a
53:09
review of the three sessions that we had kind of knowing that
53:13
it's a super short period of time you know and the constraint
53:16
of of knowing that it's a recording and so on.
53:20
But leaving that aside how was what was kind of the effect of
53:26
these conversations, what How did you use them for yourself to
53:33
to again use the motivation that you have for self change and to
53:37
do more fit into something else? kind of a difficult question for
54:02
me because I think that normally for me when I really have when
54:08
I'm when I really want to do deep work and I really want to
54:12
look at I guess that the this other side of me that I really
54:19
that, I really need. I really want to kind of improve
54:22
on and in a sense because I want to feel better.
54:27
I have to be in a state where I'm in a comfortable environment
54:31
where I'm not comfortable place in my life in general.
54:37
And since we started a conversation, my life has been
54:43
constant a bit of chaos. Yeah.
54:45
And so I think I've been kind of skimming it's like just kind of
54:57
thinking about our conversations but I haven't really been able
55:01
to go fully deep into into really what I think this work
55:09
involves but I think The I think that I'm soon going to be in a
55:19
place where I will be able to be in a more comfortable
55:25
environment for myself that I will definitely go back and
55:30
rethink and start putting into place.
55:33
All of these things that I need to do.
55:36
I mean I understand that it's it's a longer process and it's
55:40
not something that I That's not can change after three sessions
55:45
but I think that definitely today I think has really helped
55:50
me kind of look at the next steps of what I need to do to
55:56
kind of evolve in this. I guess self again, is tough.
56:03
Acknowledgement of the entire being and not just one of the
56:11
one of the beings I guess. Yes.
56:14
Yeah. What else?
56:25
I mean, I think also as much as I've tried to forget that, you
56:31
know, at the end this is going to be it is a something's going
56:35
to be heard that somewhat has been on the back of my mind so
56:43
maybe I don't know, it's just a different kind of situation and
56:47
was just being you know, with someone speaking with someone
56:49
one-on-one yes. and maybe I think that's also why I have to
56:56
kind of just sit down and really reflect on or three sessions and
57:01
kind of like, think about our conversations and and I guess on
57:10
my own, and Yeah. no, but I'm definitely think excited about
57:21
this new kind of tool. Yeah.
57:30
Yeah I'm I'm really grateful for your honesty and also to engage
57:38
as you said, you know, live situation where you have many
57:41
things going on and it would you know technically not be the
57:46
ideal place. But you know what I like about
57:49
it is that this is life and some yeah, you know, people engage
57:53
and or they have to do self development not under the best
57:57
circumstances. And it's just a glimpse of that.
58:02
So kind of for me it's there's something very real about that
58:06
then we we sometimes have to be in these processes and then to
58:10
remind ourselves to revisit it in order to go deeper when we
58:13
have more time and so on. So even though I would also wish
58:19
it for yourself that circumstances would be easier
58:22
but it's also very real. Yeah, and that's also something
58:28
that I I, you know, I felt in those conversations with you all
58:32
the time that you were very You really tried to connect with
58:38
yourself and with me under the circumstances and to to you
58:44
know, to have an honest and counter and value that a lot.
58:50
Yeah, I mean I did try and send some sick to say okay this hours
58:56
just for me you know, and leave kind of everything else, a bit
59:02
on the sidelines and just be like that, I will have to come
59:05
back to you, but try to just focus on this one hour, just one
59:09
hour. And it's, and it's for me, you
59:11
know? Yes.
59:12
So, I mean, it's not easy. Definitely, not my mind has been
59:18
going on. You know, on and on about the
59:23
million things I should be doing and I'm quite fidgety, but I'm
59:29
actually really proud that. I just didn't get up and start
59:32
walking around or whatever. I don't know that I would do you
59:36
know because it's Some sense. It is a bit of I don't know, it
59:46
could be the discomfort of just having to speak about these
59:48
things and mmm or you know, Or multitasking sometimes is like a
59:57
safety net because you know, ideally focusing on one thing.
1:00:05
But I think yeah, I have to, I have to acknowledge that the
1:00:10
three sessions. I did sit calmly and so and I
1:00:15
did really try to give, you know, all of my myself because I
1:00:21
do really want to Two. Yeah, I guess.
1:00:29
Elf. Develop and just That's
1:00:31
nonsense. Be a better person for me and
1:00:35
yeah. Yeah.
1:00:38
Okay, thank you so much. I wish you all the best.
1:00:41
Yeah. Thanks.