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True Crime: The Phantom of Heilbronn · Stuff You Should Know

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of I
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Speaker 1: That's right, and now on with a spooky show. That's right.
1:12
Speaker 1: So what what a dishes this Chuck the Spooky Phantom
1:16
Speaker 1: Edian that's what Dave thought. But now and you can
1:21
Speaker 1: understand how you would get that impression from the title,
1:25
Speaker 1: But the phantom of Hyle Braun is it Hyle You
1:31
Speaker 1: do the second syllable okay for an e I okay,
1:35
Speaker 1: so hile Braun sorry double end at the end, and
1:40
Speaker 1: the phantom of heil Braun would prove to be essentially
1:44
Speaker 1: what amounts to a criminal mastermind as far as we're concerned, Um,
1:49
Speaker 1: for being able to evade the police for so long
1:52
Speaker 1: despite being so sought after. I mean like they made
1:56
Speaker 1: international news. Um, this case. It it was that vexan.
2:02
Speaker 1: So we love cold cases, we love true crime cases,
2:06
Speaker 1: and this one is like really great, Yes, so big
2:10
Speaker 1: thanks to Olivia for helping us out with this one.
2:12
Speaker 1: Uh and she very stuteley starts with a brief overview
2:16
Speaker 1: of DNA forensics, which we covered a lot of times,
2:20
Speaker 1: but um, just as a reminder, this started out DNA
2:24
Speaker 1: forensics and collection and using it for criminal cases in
2:28
Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties in the UK. UH. Notably, I think
2:32
Speaker 1: the first case was the exoneration of a seventeen year
2:35
Speaker 1: old UH suspect in a rape and murder case of
2:39
Speaker 1: two girls. UM. Back then before they had this is
2:43
Speaker 1: like pre DNA database. UM. Their idea, which you know
2:46
Speaker 1: worked pretty well in this case, was to basically do
2:49
Speaker 1: a big genetic sweep and ask for five thousand local
2:53
Speaker 1: men to give up DNA samples of blood or saliva. Uh.
2:57
Speaker 1: And there was a local baker there named Colin Pitchfork
3:00
Speaker 1: told his friend Lu said like, hey, mate, would you
3:02
Speaker 1: mind donating your blood for me and his friend. I
3:06
Speaker 1: guess the word got around like hey, that's a weird
3:08
Speaker 1: thing to do. Uh. Someone overhears this in a pub
3:11
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, Colin Pitchfork is in fact
3:14
Speaker 1: arrested and another gentleman is exonerated. Yeah, through the use
3:20
Speaker 1: of DNA. And it was the guy who actually invented
3:24
Speaker 1: using DNA for forensics, Alec J. Jeffries, who became knighted,
3:28
Speaker 1: and he discovered it by accident. He was trying to
3:30
Speaker 1: find how um heritable diseases passed two families and realized like,
3:36
Speaker 1: oh wait, I can actually identify every single participant in
3:38
Speaker 1: this study because of their DNA and a light bulb
3:42
Speaker 1: went off and like that was that was an amazing
3:45
Speaker 1: first case. Like he exonerated somebody who was innocent and
3:50
Speaker 1: caught the bad guy and the murdering rape of two girls.
3:53
Speaker 1: Like it doesn't you can't possibly have a better first
3:56
Speaker 1: outing than that. Um And and so as it was old,
4:00
Speaker 1: DNA profiling took off like a rocket, particularly in the
4:03
Speaker 1: UK at first, but then it spread very quickly to
4:06
Speaker 1: other European countries and the US, And by nine the
4:10
Speaker 1: FBI said, hey, all of you UM police departments in
4:13
Speaker 1: the United States, you start sending your your samples into US,
4:17
Speaker 1: will create profiles, will run him against the database, and
4:20
Speaker 1: we will catch your bad guy for you. So it
4:22
Speaker 1: became much more standardized within three years of that first case. Yeah,
4:27
Speaker 1: and all the private companies who were doing that before
4:29
Speaker 1: the FBI stepped up said thanks a lot. Yeah, now
4:33
Speaker 1: we're bankrupt, thanks a lot of FBI. We We had
4:35
Speaker 1: a pretty good racket going. But it did needed to
4:38
Speaker 1: be codified in the database became a very big part
4:41
Speaker 1: of it because, like I said, pre database they were
4:44
Speaker 1: doing and as you'll see in some of these crimes,
4:46
Speaker 1: even with the phantom things like genetic sweeps and genetic
4:50
Speaker 1: drag nets and things like that. Yeah, there was another
4:53
Speaker 1: guy who enters the picture in ninety seven he was
4:55
Speaker 1: from Austria's name was Roland van or Shot. I think
4:59
Speaker 1: I got it UM and he said, hey, you know
5:02
Speaker 1: how we only thought we could get DNA from blood,
5:05
Speaker 1: saliva or semen. It turns out we leave DNA everywhere.
5:10
Speaker 1: Everything we touch has little bits of UM d NA
5:14
Speaker 1: left behind. And here's a way to extract that and
5:18
Speaker 1: and UM identify it and profile it basically UM. And
5:22
Speaker 1: so now all of a sudden DNA goes from this
5:24
Speaker 1: is a really useful tool. Kind of two. We can
5:28
Speaker 1: use this and basically every case we come across somebody
5:32
Speaker 1: like UM uh steals a can of coke out of
5:36
Speaker 1: the Honor System coke machine, you could you could like
5:40
Speaker 1: profile their DNA and probably catch them from that. It
5:43
Speaker 1: was like it opened it up that much. It's you're dead. Yeah,
5:46
Speaker 1: it stopped. It decreased UM Honor System co mashing crime
5:50
Speaker 1: by like five almost overnight. Uh. Those genetic dragnets were
5:56
Speaker 1: happening more and more, and then they eventually built up
5:58
Speaker 1: the database such where they were less and less necessary,
6:02
Speaker 1: especially when UM country started sharing data across their borders,
6:06
Speaker 1: which uh here in the United States we do that
6:08
Speaker 1: in an interstate fashion. Uh. And maybe with Canada and Mexico.
6:12
Speaker 1: I'm not really sure actually, but if they're lucky, if
6:14
Speaker 1: we're feeling like that. Uh. And but in Europe UM,
6:19
Speaker 1: this started happening about two thousand five, when Germany, Austria, Belgium, France,
6:23
Speaker 1: Luxembourg in the Netherlands said uh, and Spain said, hey,
6:26
Speaker 1: let's sign this treaty UM that means we can share
6:29
Speaker 1: our our DNA findings with each other UM. Two thousand seven.
6:34
Speaker 1: That was basically all of Europe, all the EU got
6:36
Speaker 1: on board. UH. And the reason we're talking about the
6:39
Speaker 1: EU s because all of these uh, myriad crimes that
6:44
Speaker 1: this phantom purportedly committed were in Europe, and mostly around Germany. Yes,
6:52
Speaker 1: and because these crimes were committed after Roland von uer
6:57
Speaker 1: shots um discovery that you can get DNA samples from
7:00
Speaker 1: just about anything UM, the European police had become well
7:04
Speaker 1: versed in lifting DNA from crime scenes, and so they
7:09
Speaker 1: were able to track the who would come to be
7:12
Speaker 1: called the Phantom of heilbron Um through the DNA left
7:16
Speaker 1: behind at these crime scenes. And apparently they were already
7:20
Speaker 1: tracking this person for a few years in a much
7:24
Speaker 1: more isolated way. But the whole thing blew up and
7:28
Speaker 1: the nickname that the Phantom of Heilbron All happened in
7:32
Speaker 1: I think April of two thousand seven, when a twenty
7:36
Speaker 1: two year old policewoman named Michelle kay Sweater was murdered
7:40
Speaker 1: while she was taking a lunch break. Can I correct
7:43
Speaker 1: your pronunciation? Yeah, I believe that would be Kaisa Vetta.
7:50
Speaker 1: That's much better when I say kay Sweater. Yeah, but
7:53
Speaker 1: that's okay. She was was murdered in cold blood. She
7:58
Speaker 1: was twenty years old on lunch break with a cop
8:01
Speaker 1: named Martin Arnold, and they were sitting in their patrol
8:05
Speaker 1: car and hal Bron and a couple of people jumped
8:08
Speaker 1: in the back seat shot them from behind. They stole
8:11
Speaker 1: their handcuffs, they stole their guns. Uh, and Kaisa Vetter died.
8:17
Speaker 1: Martin was only twenty five and was in a coma
8:20
Speaker 1: for weeks. And if you read any interviews with Martin Arnold,
8:24
Speaker 1: that just like you know, completely wrecked this guy's life. Uh.
8:27
Speaker 1: He lost memory from the point where he parked the
8:29
Speaker 1: car to eat and literally doesn't remember anything else except
8:33
Speaker 1: waking up in the hospital. So all that to say,
8:35
Speaker 1: there was no identification of anything, right, yeah, I saw
8:39
Speaker 1: that he couldn't. I can imagine if you're in a
8:41
Speaker 1: coma until they dislodge a bullet from your brain, it's
8:44
Speaker 1: a pretty good bet you're not going to be able
8:47
Speaker 1: to remember anything. Is he able to remember stuff? Now?
8:49
Speaker 1: Do you know? Like from that point on? Yeah, I
8:52
Speaker 1: mean I think he recovered. But um, it was just,
8:55
Speaker 1: you know, one of these sad stories of this young
8:57
Speaker 1: guy who was always wanted to be a cop early
8:59
Speaker 1: on on the job and you know, just gets And
9:03
Speaker 1: this was not a it's not like this crime happens
9:06
Speaker 1: a lot in the US, but it was a very huge,
9:09
Speaker 1: big deal crime and it like rocked Germany. It was
9:12
Speaker 1: such a big scary thing. Yeah, because Heilbron is not
9:15
Speaker 1: a huge, bustling metropolis. It's a small town. And the
9:19
Speaker 1: fact that the murder of a cop in the small
9:21
Speaker 1: town in Germany caught the entire country's attention and outrage,
9:27
Speaker 1: you know, it does go to show you like, that's
9:28
Speaker 1: a really big deal in Germany, or it was at
9:31
Speaker 1: least in two thousand and seven. And also I think
9:33
Speaker 1: the manner of the murder to where um, the perpetrator
9:36
Speaker 1: of the criminals, um got to drop on them so
9:39
Speaker 1: quickly that the cops weren't even able to like, um,
9:43
Speaker 1: get their weapons out, like they just completely by surprise.
9:47
Speaker 1: So it was an enormous deal. And it turned out
9:51
Speaker 1: that they were able to find some genetic material UM
9:55
Speaker 1: on the rear seat of the car and on the
9:57
Speaker 1: center console of the car, and they found on something
10:00
Speaker 1: really really surprising that UM. The only genetic material that
10:05
Speaker 1: they could work up a profile from belonged to a woman.
10:09
Speaker 1: And that did not fit the idea of Germans at
10:12
Speaker 1: the time of somebody who had jump in the backseat
10:14
Speaker 1: of a cop car and murder a pair of cops,
10:18
Speaker 1: or murder one and try to murder the other one. Yeah,
10:22
Speaker 1: it was. It was shocking, but it was confusing at
10:27
Speaker 1: the same time, like no one understood sort of the
10:30
Speaker 1: findings that happened. UM. A few months later, Uh, they
10:34
Speaker 1: are working with the DNA and they said, hey, wait
10:36
Speaker 1: a minute, these samples match some other crimes that are happening. UM.
10:42
Speaker 1: Two other murders in particular. The first was from it's
10:46
Speaker 1: a cold case. Uh, this woman, I'm gonna say it's
10:50
Speaker 1: les a lot Schlanger. I was sixty two years old
10:53
Speaker 1: again in Germany and it's about a hundred miles west
10:57
Speaker 1: of Heilbroun. And on mate any third of that year,
11:00
Speaker 1: I had put some cakes in the oven. Her neighbor
11:03
Speaker 1: came by to have t knocked at the door. No
11:06
Speaker 1: one answered, and it turned out that she had been Schlinger,
11:09
Speaker 1: had been strangled with the wire from a flower bouquet
11:13
Speaker 1: in her sitting room. Cops investigated a bunch of witnesses.
11:18
Speaker 1: No one saw anything, no one heard anything. But we
11:20
Speaker 1: have this d N A on the rim of a
11:22
Speaker 1: teacup that matched the DNA from the killer of Michelle
11:26
Speaker 1: kaisaveta yeah, from cold case? Right, that's right. And then
11:31
Speaker 1: there was another two thousand one cold case in the
11:34
Speaker 1: murder of a man named Joseph Wallzenbach. How's that. That's great.
11:39
Speaker 1: He was an antique stealer, and he too was murdered
11:41
Speaker 1: with a weapon of opportunity, some garden twine that happened
11:46
Speaker 1: to be handy. Um strangled, So both both lise a
11:49
Speaker 1: lot and Um Joseph were strangled Um and he was
11:54
Speaker 1: strangled in his shop, and they they found d NA
11:56
Speaker 1: on his body, a few items in the shop, and
11:58
Speaker 1: then the back of a close which is so creepy
12:01
Speaker 1: that they assumed that, um, the phantom who would be
12:04
Speaker 1: come to be known as the Phantom, put the clothes
12:07
Speaker 1: sign out and left. Um, that's just cold, you know
12:12
Speaker 1: for sure, that kind of calculation. Yeah, that's like a
12:14
Speaker 1: movie shot right there. Yeah, it's just scary. So now
12:18
Speaker 1: we have three murders, um, and an attempted murder. Two
12:23
Speaker 1: of the victims were cops. UM, all of them linked
12:27
Speaker 1: to the same woman over the course from two thousand
12:32
Speaker 1: and seven, all in roughly the same general area of Germany. Yeah,
12:37
Speaker 1: and two of the murders are similar enough, and that
12:39
Speaker 1: they were strangled with some kind of wire and I
12:43
Speaker 1: think both were missing just little amounts of money. Um,
12:46
Speaker 1: it didn't seem like a huge robbery kind of thing,
12:49
Speaker 1: but they were close enough to where there were some
12:51
Speaker 1: similarities to where they said, Okay, these make a little
12:55
Speaker 1: bit of sense together. However, except that it was a
12:58
Speaker 1: woman who was strangling, which is not common at all. Uh.
13:01
Speaker 1: And then the cop one though that many years later
13:04
Speaker 1: was really kind of threw everyone for a loop. Um. Nevertheless,
13:08
Speaker 1: the DNA all matched and so the media started in
13:12
Speaker 1: with his story. Like you said, the Phantom of heil
13:14
Speaker 1: Broom or the woman without a face. Yeah, and apparently
13:19
Speaker 1: she's been known as the woman without a face before
13:21
Speaker 1: when they were tracking those two cold cases that they've
13:23
Speaker 1: matched the DNA too before, and then with the murder
13:26
Speaker 1: of the police officer, Um, she became the Phantom of
13:29
Speaker 1: Heilbron Um. So now German UM investigators were like, we
13:35
Speaker 1: have a woman serial killer on our hands who's been
13:38
Speaker 1: active at least since and no one has seen her,
13:42
Speaker 1: and we need to find this person a S A P.
13:45
Speaker 1: Because she's now a cop killer. All right, I think
13:48
Speaker 1: it's a great cliffhanger. Yep. Should we take a break? Ye?
13:52
Speaker 1: All right, We'll be right back with more of the
13:53
Speaker 1: Phantom of heilbron right after this. So, Chuck, I have
14:16
Speaker 1: to say, I just want to say this, Um. There
14:19
Speaker 1: was a part where we're talking about DNA profile sharing
14:22
Speaker 1: the across the EU in two thousand seven, they also
14:26
Speaker 1: were sharing license plate information and that occurred to me
14:30
Speaker 1: that the font on those plates was false song suresh
14:35
Speaker 1: one day shrift. Yeah, and I just I spelled it out.
14:39
Speaker 1: I sounded it out. My god, I was gonna say
14:41
Speaker 1: it in this episode, come hell or high water. Good job,
14:45
Speaker 1: thanks um, all right. So where we last left you
14:49
Speaker 1: was there is the murder of a police officer, the
14:51
Speaker 1: serious wounding of another, and then two cold cases from
14:55
Speaker 1: many years before, all tied to the same d n
14:58
Speaker 1: A of what they know is one um. All of
15:03
Speaker 1: a sudden, they start matching this DNA with these uh
15:07
Speaker 1: you know, people start sharing databases in crime um particulars
15:11
Speaker 1: around the EU, and they said, wait a minute, this
15:14
Speaker 1: person's DNA is everywhere. There's and and it's not murders.
15:19
Speaker 1: There are a dozen break INDs, and there are car
15:22
Speaker 1: thefts in Austria and in France and in Germany. And
15:26
Speaker 1: there's a break in in an office in Germany. There's
15:29
Speaker 1: a burglary in Mainz, Germany. The the gas cap of
15:34
Speaker 1: a car that was stolen had this d A d
15:37
Speaker 1: n A on it. In two thousand three, there was
15:40
Speaker 1: a toy pistol used in a robbery in France with
15:43
Speaker 1: this d n A on it. And everyone is like,
15:45
Speaker 1: that's why this name Phantom of Heilbron like locked in
15:48
Speaker 1: so much, because all of a sudden, like you could
15:51
Speaker 1: go on for an hour listing the crimes that this
15:54
Speaker 1: DNA was found at. Yeah, so we've got a female
15:57
Speaker 1: serial killer in Germany who also Pierce savoth taste for
16:02
Speaker 1: just common crimes as well, so much so that it
16:05
Speaker 1: seemed like she may have been more of a um
16:10
Speaker 1: like a burglar or robber who was totally fine with
16:14
Speaker 1: murder but didn't need to murder all the time. Um,
16:18
Speaker 1: more than a serial killer that liked to engage in
16:21
Speaker 1: petty crime and one of those, I just have to say,
16:24
Speaker 1: one of those um burglaries. A breaking at an office
16:27
Speaker 1: in Dietzenbach on New Year's Day two thousand three. One
16:31
Speaker 1: of the prosecutors in this case, who was tracking the phantom,
16:35
Speaker 1: named Gunter Horn, said that this was a professional job.
16:38
Speaker 1: It's a quote, but it was the theft of a
16:41
Speaker 1: can of loose change. So I thought that was kind
16:44
Speaker 1: of hilarious that he was like, this person is of
16:46
Speaker 1: aiding us that it's a professional job no matter what
16:49
Speaker 1: she's doing, even if she's stealing loose change in a
16:51
Speaker 1: coffee can from an office, doesn't matter. She's pro Well.
16:55
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the kind of interesting thing about this case,
16:57
Speaker 1: I think is once you have this DNA at all
16:59
Speaker 1: these crimes, your your cop masterminds are going to start
17:04
Speaker 1: trying to piece together and they did in this case,
17:07
Speaker 1: like we gotta profile this person, and what kind of
17:10
Speaker 1: a person would I don't think we mentioned that was
17:12
Speaker 1: also the DNA was found on a heroin needle. Yeah,
17:15
Speaker 1: that was a big turning point to a seven year
17:17
Speaker 1: old stepped on in Germany and his parents said, hey,
17:21
Speaker 1: can you investigate this? My kids stepped on this needle.
17:23
Speaker 1: They swabbed it and found that DNA. So all of
17:25
Speaker 1: a sudden, this profile was like, this is a drug user.
17:29
Speaker 1: Maybe she steals little bits to to fund the drug
17:33
Speaker 1: habit and maybe, like you said, the murders just happened
17:36
Speaker 1: out of necessity because of these petty crimes. So kind
17:40
Speaker 1: of the point is like, once you've got all these
17:42
Speaker 1: weird disparate crimes, um, you're still gonna have cops that
17:46
Speaker 1: are trying to tie them to a single sort of brain. Right,
17:49
Speaker 1: they were just trying to figure out who they were
17:51
Speaker 1: after basically. Um, So yeah, that heroin syringe from two
17:55
Speaker 1: thousand one really kind of explain things like the coffee
17:59
Speaker 1: came and of loose change, you know, um, those kind
18:02
Speaker 1: of robberies and breake ins um. And then there was
18:05
Speaker 1: another thing that kind of added to the puzzle as
18:08
Speaker 1: they were on her trail. Um in two thousand five
18:11
Speaker 1: in Verms in Germany. UM, a Roma man shot his
18:17
Speaker 1: brother and so the police were, um getting stuff from
18:22
Speaker 1: the crime scene. What's they called. They were collecting evidence
18:27
Speaker 1: from the crime scene, and um, the DNA they found
18:31
Speaker 1: on one of the bullets was the phantoms. So now
18:34
Speaker 1: they're like, okay, this kind of explains how she's making
18:37
Speaker 1: her way back and forth around the EU in France, Germany, Austria.
18:43
Speaker 1: She's she's basically looked up with the Roman community, if
18:47
Speaker 1: not Roma herself. Um. And then there was one other
18:51
Speaker 1: thing too, Um, she had accomplices in some of these crimes,
18:56
Speaker 1: and they were none of them would say a word
19:00
Speaker 1: about her. They all clammed up. Whenever the cops went
19:03
Speaker 1: to them and said, hey, you know this crime you
19:05
Speaker 1: got busted four we just found out that you had
19:07
Speaker 1: an accomplice, They would just not They just stopped talking. Yeah,
19:11
Speaker 1: And uh, I think when I think it was the
19:14
Speaker 1: gunter Horn talked about the fact that I think his
19:17
Speaker 1: frustration and police's general frustration that even after these people
19:21
Speaker 1: are behind bars, they're still not talking and they're not
19:24
Speaker 1: saying anything. So they basically said what we kind of
19:28
Speaker 1: did was basically wait for reports to come in with
19:31
Speaker 1: this d n A turning up again and then we
19:35
Speaker 1: would have a new lead. And between I think, uh
19:39
Speaker 1: two thousand seven, summer two thousand seven and spring two
19:42
Speaker 1: thousand eight, um, they were like garden shed break ins.
19:47
Speaker 1: Sometimes food and drink was stolen. Um, nothing real big happened.
19:53
Speaker 1: But again lots of more crimes start trickling in. Um.
19:58
Speaker 1: And they think also the that those garden shed break ins,
20:02
Speaker 1: that she was spending the night in those garden sheds,
20:05
Speaker 1: So that would suggest also that she was aware she
20:08
Speaker 1: was being hunted and on the run. Yes, look right there,
20:10
Speaker 1: you can see a depression in the haystack right so. Um.
20:16
Speaker 1: So there was another one too, and I believe this
20:18
Speaker 1: was the last crime. They they Yeah, I think it
20:22
Speaker 1: was the last crime. No, it wasn't. There was another crime.
20:25
Speaker 1: It was a little odd, um it was. It took
20:28
Speaker 1: place in near the Luxembourg border where a woman who
20:31
Speaker 1: was the manager of the cleaning staff at a fishing lodge.
20:34
Speaker 1: Someone snuck up behind her, hit her on the head
20:36
Speaker 1: hard and made off with three hundred euros that I
20:39
Speaker 1: guess she had on her. And when they they did,
20:42
Speaker 1: they collected evidence in the room at that fishing lodge.
20:45
Speaker 1: They found the phantom's DNA there. Now, from what I saw,
20:49
Speaker 1: it wasn't on the woman or any weapon or anything
20:53
Speaker 1: like that, just in the room. So they didn't know
20:55
Speaker 1: whether she had been there before or whether she was
20:58
Speaker 1: involved in this. But either way they were like, Okay,
21:01
Speaker 1: now she's over by Luxembourg too. I flew out of
21:04
Speaker 1: Luxembourg once. Oh yeah, how how's the airport? I threw
21:09
Speaker 1: up in a trash can at the airport. Long story.
21:13
Speaker 1: Does it have to do with rope trauma? No? Now
21:16
Speaker 1: we have two mysteries. Almost got um. So the biggest
21:21
Speaker 1: crime aside from that initial uh police murder uh in
21:27
Speaker 1: these cold cases came in two thousand eight with a
21:30
Speaker 1: triple murder. This was in January two tho eight. The
21:33
Speaker 1: bodies of three used car dealers from Georgia European Georgia
21:38
Speaker 1: not here, We're found in the Rhine River in Germany
21:41
Speaker 1: and two men were arrested, a forty year old Iraqi
21:44
Speaker 1: and twenty six year old Somalian citizen. So they looked
21:49
Speaker 1: at these guys and say, we know what happened. Um.
21:51
Speaker 1: These car dealers were in town getting cars to sell
21:55
Speaker 1: back home, and they had a lot of cash on them,
21:58
Speaker 1: so you murder them for their me They searched the
22:01
Speaker 1: one suspect, the Iraqi suspect, and they found traces of
22:06
Speaker 1: you guessed it, the phantom of Heilbron DNA was in
22:10
Speaker 1: that car. Yeah, please question the guy. And again he's
22:14
Speaker 1: not talking. He has no nothing to say to the
22:16
Speaker 1: police about who this mystery woman is. Yep. So now
22:20
Speaker 1: she's shown that she's capable of, if not participating in,
22:24
Speaker 1: at least presiding over triple homicides. That is not that
22:29
Speaker 1: many people are capable of triple homicides, you know, But
22:33
Speaker 1: it's also kind of not surprising if you look at
22:35
Speaker 1: her past that she's also willing to get up in
22:38
Speaker 1: close and personal and strangle elderly citizens with garden twine.
22:42
Speaker 1: So it's not that big of a shock, but it's
22:44
Speaker 1: a it's a it's a big addition to the profile
22:47
Speaker 1: of of her that the police are coming up with.
22:51
Speaker 1: And so um, they started to put all this stuff
22:53
Speaker 1: together like that the syringe suggested that she used drugs,
22:57
Speaker 1: and you know, some of the pettier crime suggested that
23:00
Speaker 1: she was committing them to probably get drugs. Um. She
23:06
Speaker 1: generally stuck around southwestern Germany, but she also was capable
23:10
Speaker 1: of moving over to Austria and France, and so they
23:14
Speaker 1: said her connection with the Roma probably helps her do that. Um.
23:19
Speaker 1: So they were putting this together and they still weren't
23:23
Speaker 1: finding anybody. No one was emerging like she just kept
23:28
Speaker 1: eluding them crime after crime after crime. And one of
23:31
Speaker 1: the big problems was is there was either no eye
23:34
Speaker 1: witnesses to the crime or no eye witnesses saw her.
23:38
Speaker 1: And then one day, one day there was an attempted
23:42
Speaker 1: break in and star breaking in two thousand six. By
23:45
Speaker 1: the way, I'm expecting you to be like your way
23:47
Speaker 1: off if I'm way off, and if you say nothing,
23:49
Speaker 1: then I nailed it. That's how I'm taking these correct, okay,
23:54
Speaker 1: and and sar breaken uh that somebody saw the person
23:58
Speaker 1: attempting to to break in, and in that break in
24:00
Speaker 1: attempt they found the phantom's DNA. But the puzzler was
24:05
Speaker 1: that the person the eyewitness who saw the attempted burglar
24:10
Speaker 1: described a man with a soul patch, even a terrible,
24:13
Speaker 1: terrible soul patch. And this added a whole another twist
24:17
Speaker 1: to the mystery, and one interesting thing notably though, is
24:20
Speaker 1: none of the crimes, even though there are crimes committed
24:23
Speaker 1: all over this area, none of them happened in Bavaria,
24:27
Speaker 1: which is a little unusual because it's right there. But
24:29
Speaker 1: just put a pin in that one, which suggested then
24:32
Speaker 1: to the cops that is possible that the phantom who
24:34
Speaker 1: they knew to have the sex of a female but
24:38
Speaker 1: had a soul patch, conceivably may have actually been a
24:41
Speaker 1: transgender man. So they added that to the profile as well,
24:45
Speaker 1: that's right, which I'm sure you know, added a whole
24:48
Speaker 1: other layer for them. Another layer that was added that
24:51
Speaker 1: we should mention was that Germany had I guess you
24:54
Speaker 1: could call a very um I guess to put it
24:56
Speaker 1: kindly rocky historical record of identifying races and ethnicities as
25:03
Speaker 1: a country. UM. So because of that, there were pretty
25:08
Speaker 1: strict laws on how Germany could use DNA and how
25:11
Speaker 1: much insight they could get from it. So, in other words,
25:14
Speaker 1: an investigator UH in Germany was not allowed to determine
25:18
Speaker 1: race or ethnicity, or hair or eye color using DNA.
25:22
Speaker 1: Um It was possible in Austria, so they're a little
25:26
Speaker 1: less strict there at the time, and they were able
25:29
Speaker 1: to take a closer look at this d n A
25:31
Speaker 1: and say, hey, we think we can't be sure because
25:35
Speaker 1: it's two thousand. What year was this seven or eight? Uh.
25:39
Speaker 1: We're pretty sure though that this woman probably has blonde
25:43
Speaker 1: hair and blue eyes. Um, so we got that going
25:46
Speaker 1: for us. Yeah, but they also said in some interviews
25:49
Speaker 1: that they're like, that's I mean, we're talking about Germany
25:52
Speaker 1: for one. But also they said that they was accurate,
25:55
Speaker 1: so the margin of error left the possibility of UM
25:58
Speaker 1: falsely arresting hundreds of thousands of Germans. So they essentially
26:02
Speaker 1: they might as well have not had any idea what
26:05
Speaker 1: her hair eye color was. Yeah. Again, this is the
26:07
Speaker 1: early days of d NA UM such that they also
26:10
Speaker 1: did a DNA dragnet. Uh. This is pretty pretty big,
26:13
Speaker 1: long shot, but they did saliva swab of about three
26:17
Speaker 1: thousand women in Belgium, France and southern Germany and Italy. Uh.
26:22
Speaker 1: They focused on drug users, unhoused women, women with criminal
26:27
Speaker 1: records that were pretty serious. They offered up big time money.
26:31
Speaker 1: I believe it got up to about three hundred thousand
26:34
Speaker 1: euros uh, a lot of dough um, but you know,
26:38
Speaker 1: nothing was helping out. And in total, I think They
26:41
Speaker 1: ended up spending what they guessed to be about sixteen
26:44
Speaker 1: thousand hours of police overtime pursuing the Phantom of Heilbroun,
26:50
Speaker 1: and yet she kept a luning him Chuck and I
26:53
Speaker 1: say that we take our second break and come back
26:56
Speaker 1: and talk about how she was finally apprehended. Let's do it. Yeah, okay,
27:20
Speaker 1: So now we're in March two thousand nine. Um, this
27:24
Speaker 1: is uh finally the case that kind of breaks things
27:26
Speaker 1: wide open for the Phantom of Heilbron When police were
27:31
Speaker 1: investigating the death of a man who died in a
27:33
Speaker 1: fire and thought maybe he was an asylum seeker who
27:37
Speaker 1: had disappeared years before, and so they were trying to
27:40
Speaker 1: find out if this was the same the burned body
27:43
Speaker 1: that they found was the same as this asylum seeker.
27:46
Speaker 1: They tested a card where they know that this asylum
27:49
Speaker 1: seeker had given fingerprints, like here is my fingerprint d
27:53
Speaker 1: NA right here, and it matched the phantom. And they said,
27:58
Speaker 1: well that all right, I know this phantom matches have
28:02
Speaker 1: been crazy, but this is literally impossible. We know who
28:05
Speaker 1: this man was and it is a man. It is
28:09
Speaker 1: not a woman who had committed these crimes. So they
28:11
Speaker 1: said let's retest it and the DNA has disappeared from
28:15
Speaker 1: the card. And then everyone went, well, what in the
28:18
Speaker 1: wide wide world sports is are going on here? Right?
28:22
Speaker 1: And before they could answer that question, a German magazine
28:26
Speaker 1: named Stern came out and said, um, guys, there is
28:32
Speaker 1: no phantom of heil Braun who. Yeah, they've been chasing
28:37
Speaker 1: false positives from DNA matches, likely from contaminated equipment or swabs, right,
28:44
Speaker 1: And what they realized they had literally been tracking were
28:48
Speaker 1: cotton swabs. They have been tracking the DNA of a
28:53
Speaker 1: woman who worked in a cotton swab factory that they
28:57
Speaker 1: used to um take DNA sample from. That was the
29:01
Speaker 1: phantom of Heilbron was a I think a seventy one
29:05
Speaker 1: year old Polish grandmother who worked in the factory of
29:07
Speaker 1: the cotton swapmaker. Yeah, so I tried to find out
29:10
Speaker 1: who she was specifically, I couldn't and I also found
29:15
Speaker 1: that it was there were quite a few older Polish women.
29:19
Speaker 1: I guess that kind of thing happened sometimes where you
29:22
Speaker 1: hire a bunch of people out from an area, So
29:25
Speaker 1: it could have possibly been from other women in that
29:28
Speaker 1: same area who worked at the factory. Because I couldn't
29:31
Speaker 1: find her actual name, did you not that? I feel
29:35
Speaker 1: like I did see it somewhere in one of the articles. Okay,
29:38
Speaker 1: I didn't know if they tried to grant her a
29:41
Speaker 1: non unminimon I don't. I swear, I swear I saw it.
29:46
Speaker 1: I'm almost positive because I could see why they be. Yeah,
29:49
Speaker 1: they'd make her anonymous. But then in retrospect, she didn't
29:52
Speaker 1: do anything wrong. It wasn't her. But you avoid people
29:56
Speaker 1: from bothering this old lady. Sure, But as a matter
29:59
Speaker 1: of fact, the cops. The first thing the cops did
30:01
Speaker 1: was throw the maker of these cotton swabs right under
30:03
Speaker 1: the bus. Because you can imagine everybody, the phantom of Heilbron,
30:07
Speaker 1: this internationally described criminal that the cops have been after
30:12
Speaker 1: for years, that the Heilbron police alone spent sixteen thousand
30:17
Speaker 1: overtime hours trying to catch, didn't exist. There was no phantom.
30:22
Speaker 1: It was such a on the cops faces that you
30:24
Speaker 1: they're still peeling it off. And so of course they said,
30:28
Speaker 1: this is the manufacturer's fault. What the hay is going on?
30:31
Speaker 1: Why is there other people's d n A on these
30:33
Speaker 1: cotton swabs when you're double double packaging, and we considered
30:37
Speaker 1: these one one cops said the Mercedes of cotton swabs,
30:40
Speaker 1: and the manufacturers like, well, we never said you could
30:43
Speaker 1: use them for d N a collection. Yeah. They've fired
30:46
Speaker 1: back pretty quickly and said these are for testing food
30:49
Speaker 1: guys or medical testing, hygienic tests like definitely not collecting DNA. UM.
30:56
Speaker 1: I don't think we mentioned either before this even happened.
30:59
Speaker 1: As soon as it sort of came out from Stern
31:01
Speaker 1: the magazine, there were investigators that said, sort of on
31:05
Speaker 1: the downlow, for at least six months, we've been kind
31:08
Speaker 1: of wondering and investigating whether or not this could have
31:11
Speaker 1: been a contaminated evidence case. Yeah. The other investigators were like, well,
31:15
Speaker 1: thank you for even mentioning that to us. They kept
31:18
Speaker 1: that pretty quiet though, Um to put a button on.
31:22
Speaker 1: The Bavarian thing is, Bavaria did not source their swabs
31:26
Speaker 1: from this company. So that's explains why there was never
31:29
Speaker 1: any DNA even though Bavaria is right there where all
31:32
Speaker 1: these crimes were happening. Yeah, and the company was Grinder
31:35
Speaker 1: bio One International, a g and the thing that that
31:38
Speaker 1: claimed that they were like, well, we never said this
31:40
Speaker 1: is for DNA collection. It's for like food, food stuff
31:43
Speaker 1: sampling and stuff like that. Um. The cops were like,
31:46
Speaker 1: well then why have you been selling them to police
31:48
Speaker 1: departments all over Austria and Germany? Um, you know, what's what?
31:54
Speaker 1: What did you think we were using them for? And
31:56
Speaker 1: the company was just like you wint them out and
31:59
Speaker 1: it was like it's the same you know. Yeah, there
32:01
Speaker 1: was a PR spokesperson shaped dust cloud just left at
32:06
Speaker 1: the podium. That was it. Well, they're like, I thought
32:08
Speaker 1: you were testing your give a coke, take a coke,
32:13
Speaker 1: saying in your office your honor your coke machine honor system. Alright,
32:19
Speaker 1: so I guess, uh, we should talk a little bit
32:21
Speaker 1: about what this what happened because of this? Um it was,
32:25
Speaker 1: like you said, a big humiliation for the German police. Um.
32:29
Speaker 1: It was also a bit of a hit on d
32:31
Speaker 1: N a sampling. Um. You know, we've talked about DNA
32:35
Speaker 1: a lot over the years, and DNA is great in
32:39
Speaker 1: collection of DNA for exoneration and for for proving someone
32:44
Speaker 1: as guilty as is amazing and it's really come a
32:46
Speaker 1: long way. But DNA has always sort of giveth and
32:49
Speaker 1: taketh away in certain cases. Uh, it's not perfect, Like
32:53
Speaker 1: Livia says it's not a silver bullet, and I think
32:55
Speaker 1: it was sort of has always kind of been painted
32:57
Speaker 1: that way, especially for juries are like, you know, when
33:02
Speaker 1: they see DNA evidence, I think the first thing you
33:04
Speaker 1: think is that's like as iron glad as it gets. Yeah,
33:07
Speaker 1: and that's not necessarily always the case. No, And as
33:10
Speaker 1: a matter of fact, if you zoom out a couple
33:12
Speaker 1: of orders of magnitude and look at this case, the
33:14
Speaker 1: Phantom of Heilbron case needed to happen because people were
33:18
Speaker 1: being convicted on circumstantial DNA evidence alone, like their DNA
33:22
Speaker 1: had been found in the scene, not on the murder weapon,
33:25
Speaker 1: not on the body, just at the scene, and people
33:27
Speaker 1: are going to prison for that kind of stuff because judges,
33:30
Speaker 1: juries prosecutors saw DNA is like infallible. Basically, if your
33:34
Speaker 1: DNA was there, you were guilty essentially. So the Phantom
33:37
Speaker 1: of heil Bron case really slowed that down. And like
33:40
Speaker 1: you said, it didn't say d there's there's a lot
33:43
Speaker 1: wrong with DNA in using that for forensics. It's hey,
33:47
Speaker 1: this is a really good way to to come up
33:50
Speaker 1: with evidence, but you need to also do the old
33:52
Speaker 1: fashioned police work to fill it out to make sure
33:55
Speaker 1: you have the right person. So it just kind of
33:58
Speaker 1: slowed everybody down in like it was. I think it
34:01
Speaker 1: was really necessary because this is like the time when
34:04
Speaker 1: c s I was at its peak yet TV show
34:07
Speaker 1: was huge at like in two thousand and eight um
34:10
Speaker 1: and and like that had that was because everybody thought
34:14
Speaker 1: of d n A in that way, So it was
34:16
Speaker 1: good it happened in a sense. Yeah. Absolutely. There was
34:19
Speaker 1: one case, if you want to get specific from Olivia
34:23
Speaker 1: dug Up for us, where there was an English cab
34:25
Speaker 1: driver whose DNA was discovered from the fingernails of a
34:29
Speaker 1: murdered woman. And you know, a jury, here's that and
34:32
Speaker 1: they're like fingernails, Like of course he did it because
34:35
Speaker 1: she was fighting him off and got his DNA under
34:38
Speaker 1: her fingernails. But it was someone who rode in his
34:42
Speaker 1: cab and got a little little bit of that d
34:44
Speaker 1: NA on him, killed this woman and got that d
34:47
Speaker 1: n A on her. Uh. And I believe the cabby
34:50
Speaker 1: spent eight months in jail before they found out the
34:52
Speaker 1: truth and acquitted him. So that's a tough one though.
34:55
Speaker 1: Well sure, I mean that's an outlier, but it's just
34:58
Speaker 1: a good example of how it needs you need to
35:01
Speaker 1: tread a little lighter. I think one of the other
35:03
Speaker 1: things though, is it's not like this should have been
35:05
Speaker 1: a surprise for everybody, UM that d N A wasn't
35:10
Speaker 1: infallible because back in our friend or shoot or shot,
35:15
Speaker 1: the guy who said, hey, you can get d NA
35:17
Speaker 1: off of everything, his his research also showed you can
35:20
Speaker 1: also really really easily contaminate anything with d NA, So
35:24
Speaker 1: we should all be very careful. Everybody's like all we
35:26
Speaker 1: heard was we can get DNA samples off of anything.
35:29
Speaker 1: There's like, we didn't hear all that. We weren't within
35:31
Speaker 1: or shot. Oh man, that was amazing, chuck, holy hate.
35:38
Speaker 1: But that was that filled my heart. So there was
35:42
Speaker 1: there's an international standard, the International Organization for Standardization, I
35:47
Speaker 1: should say an international organization UM. They published a new
35:51
Speaker 1: standard called i s O three eight five that basically says,
35:55
Speaker 1: this is how you UM collect forensic evidence with DNA
36:00
Speaker 1: to minimize UM contamination that kind of stuff. And I
36:04
Speaker 1: read a forensic blog UM who was who said were
36:08
Speaker 1: these were the the DNA analysts not even doing control samples?
36:12
Speaker 1: And I went and looked it up. And a control
36:14
Speaker 1: sample is one of the most basic things you can
36:16
Speaker 1: do where you take your cotton swab that has, like say,
36:19
Speaker 1: a blood stain on it, and you pull off a
36:22
Speaker 1: little bit of the cotton swab that's not stained, and
36:25
Speaker 1: you test them both to make sure that the cotton
36:28
Speaker 1: swab that's not staying doesn't come back with any genetic material.
36:31
Speaker 1: If it does, your sample is compromised. And they weren't
36:34
Speaker 1: doing that apparently, or else they would have figured this
36:36
Speaker 1: out almost immediately. So they were not doing very basic stuff.
36:40
Speaker 1: And maybe it's because it hadn't been standardized, like this
36:43
Speaker 1: is what you're supposed to do by that time. But
36:45
Speaker 1: you know, in two thousands sixteen, finally they got around
36:48
Speaker 1: to saying, here's how you do it. Right. It's like
36:51
Speaker 1: when you put on a band aid. You take off
36:54
Speaker 1: the peely part and you hold it by the sticky part.
36:57
Speaker 1: You don't hold it by the bandage, right, and then
37:00
Speaker 1: you take a sample of the bandage and then you
37:03
Speaker 1: run it through your DNA profiling machine. Sure so, and
37:07
Speaker 1: there's actually those things exist. Now, there's something called rapid
37:10
Speaker 1: DNA machines. Yeah, because DNA is not going anywhere, nor
37:15
Speaker 1: should it. You can look no further than the Golden
37:17
Speaker 1: State killer case. Where they actually caught the serial killer
37:21
Speaker 1: who killed like scores of people, are raped scores of
37:25
Speaker 1: women and killed I think a dozen or more people. Um,
37:29
Speaker 1: just through his DNA They found it through like a
37:31
Speaker 1: genetic genealogy site. Um, they discovered this guy. So yeah,
37:35
Speaker 1: you don't actually want to get rid of d n A.
37:38
Speaker 1: But what seems to be problematic is we're going a
37:40
Speaker 1: different way where now police stations have these rapid DNA
37:44
Speaker 1: machines where you just throw a cotton swab in and
37:47
Speaker 1: it spits out a genetic profile that you can run
37:50
Speaker 1: in CODIS. But that you're taking the professional analyst out
37:54
Speaker 1: of the out of the equation, and that seems dangerous
37:57
Speaker 1: to a lot of people. Yeah. Absolutely, Um to button
38:01
Speaker 1: up the original case that sort of got this all started,
38:04
Speaker 1: which was the murder of Officer Michel Kaisaveta. Um it
38:08
Speaker 1: was Nazis, uh. What they found out, it was a
38:12
Speaker 1: very small terror of cell of just three people, the
38:15
Speaker 1: National Socialists underground uh, and they were tied to the
38:20
Speaker 1: larger Nazi movement, but they carried out a series of
38:22
Speaker 1: murders throughout Germany from two thousand seven and all except
38:30
Speaker 1: for the officers, all the other victims were immigrants, one
38:33
Speaker 1: Greek citizen and eight of Turkish origin. And it was
38:37
Speaker 1: two members of that group Uei Mundlos and Ui Bernhardt,
38:43
Speaker 1: the two the two Ouhis. They robbed a bank um
38:47
Speaker 1: in Eisenhocken, Germany. They were spotted um and this is
38:50
Speaker 1: after after the murder. This is in and how they
38:53
Speaker 1: got caught, well, not quite caught, but they were spotted.
38:56
Speaker 1: And as police approached their burned out care of and
39:00
Speaker 1: where they were hiding out, Moondlow's killed Boondhardt and then
39:04
Speaker 1: himself and what looked like a murder suicide, even though
39:08
Speaker 1: I think Brunehardt's last words were wall hold on man,
39:13
Speaker 1: that's dark, that's dark. But these are Nazis. But they
39:16
Speaker 1: also they they linked these guys to her murder um
39:21
Speaker 1: directly using DNA analysis. They found sweatpants that had been
39:24
Speaker 1: stained with blood that match Kaisa Vetters DNA and that
39:29
Speaker 1: that's that's kind of neat how it came full circle
39:32
Speaker 1: like that. But at the same time, it also strongly
39:35
Speaker 1: suggests that these guys were wearing sweatpants with the police
39:38
Speaker 1: woman's blood on them for three years. That's how gross
39:41
Speaker 1: these stupid Nazis were. Yeah, and you know, it's even
39:44
Speaker 1: funnier as I believe it's keys of Vetter After I
39:47
Speaker 1: had my whole thing at the beginning about the I
39:49
Speaker 1: and the E in German? Who keys of vetters? Even better? Yeah,
39:53
Speaker 1: I think I screwed up the whole thing. We just
39:55
Speaker 1: record it all, let's start from the beginning. So there
39:58
Speaker 1: were two other outcomes from this. One was, hey, you guys,
40:01
Speaker 1: UM ignored the murder of eight Turks and one Greek citizen. UM,
40:08
Speaker 1: but yet you spent sixteen thousand overtime hours chasing the phantom?
40:12
Speaker 1: How is that work? Why are you doing that? And
40:15
Speaker 1: then also it really showed and revealed just how much
40:18
Speaker 1: UM investigators will bend and shape their theories into really weird,
40:24
Speaker 1: ridiculous shapes just to make it fit the DNA evidence,
40:28
Speaker 1: rather than stopping and being like, wait, what what is
40:32
Speaker 1: this again? This doesn't make any sense? Are we do
40:34
Speaker 1: we have the right Are we on the right track?
40:38
Speaker 1: So that's it, everybody, that's the Phantom of Heilbron. It
40:41
Speaker 1: was a good one. That's an amazing story. And if
40:44
Speaker 1: you want to know more about the Phantom of Heilbron,
40:46
Speaker 1: you can search that on your favorite search engine and
40:49
Speaker 1: jump down that rabbit hole. And since I said rabbit hole,
40:52
Speaker 1: as always, that means it's time for a listener mail.
40:58
Speaker 1: This is a very kind of cool little thedendum from
41:01
Speaker 1: Eve in Libertyville, Illinois. Hey guys, well, listening to the
41:05
Speaker 1: Selects episode on invasive species and one of you kind
41:08
Speaker 1: of joke that would be crazy to shoot invasive plants
41:11
Speaker 1: to eliminate them. And now it's been years since that episode,
41:15
Speaker 1: but get this. I recently watched a nature documentary, Green
41:19
Speaker 1: Planet with David Edinborough, which is awesome, and there's a
41:21
Speaker 1: section on shooting invasive plants. Uh. In Maui, there's an
41:26
Speaker 1: invasive plant called the micnia that's native to Mexico, and
41:29
Speaker 1: sharp shooters and helicopters are being used to shoot the
41:33
Speaker 1: plants growing on steep hillsides with herbicides without affecting the
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Speaker 1: entire ecosystem. Just another example of creative ways people have
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Speaker 1: found to fight invasive species. Attached to link. Thanks for
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Speaker 1: all you do. Eve in Libertyville, Illinois. Amazing, Thanks Eve.
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Speaker 1: Did we did we create that? Chuck? Did we cause that? Yeah?
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Speaker 1: I don't know. Let's say we did, Okay, between you
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Speaker 1: me and Eve, we we did we came up with that.
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Speaker 1: I know I got Jared of Subway arrested and boy
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Speaker 1: did I misjudge him? Uh So that was from Eve. Eve. Eve,
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Speaker 1: thanks a lot for that one. We always love hearing
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Speaker 1: new facts about old episodes, and you can send us
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Speaker 1: an email like Eve did to stuff podcast at iHeart
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Speaker 1: radio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production
42:23
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Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.